Messages in vintageHO group.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 21774	From: prandn	Date: 1/1/2014
Subject: FS: Carl Arendt / Cox US Army Items / PFM – LTM
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21775	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Penn Line F7 question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21776	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21777	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21778	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21779	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21780	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21781	From: corlissbs	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21782	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21783	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Today's swap meet finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21784	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21785	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21786	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21787	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21788	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 1/6/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21789	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/6/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21790	From: jake_iv	Date: 1/6/2014
Subject: N&W PA units
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21791	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 1/6/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21792	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21793	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21794	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21795	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21796	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21797	From: Bill Porter	Date: 1/10/2014
Subject: H K Porter Locomotives
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21798	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 1/11/2014
Subject: Re: H K Porter Locomotives
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21799	From: corlissbs	Date: 1/11/2014
Subject: Re: H K Porter Locomotives
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21800	From: Bill Porter	Date: 1/11/2014
Subject: Re: H K Porter Locomotives
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21801	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/14/2014
Subject: REQUEST
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21802	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/14/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21803	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/14/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21804	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/14/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21805	From: greenbrier614	Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21806	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21807	From: Carlos	Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Train cars and accessories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21808	From: Carlos	Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Train cars and accessories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21809	From: earlyrail	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Springfield Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21810	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21811	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21812	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21813	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21814	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21815	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21816	From: Loren Martell	Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Prices for RR books reduced
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21817	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21818	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21819	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21820	From: prandn	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: FS: Gorre & Daphetid Items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21821	From: prandn	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: Prices for RR books reduced
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21822	From: David Emery	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: H.D. Scale Models?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21823	From: acace@juno.com	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21824	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21825	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21826	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21827	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21828	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/29/2014
Subject: Re: Train cars and accessories
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21829	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21830	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21831	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21832	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21833	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21835	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21836	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21837	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21838	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21839	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21840	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21841	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21842	From: Loren Martell	Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: FS: Logging items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21843	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: Unknown brass FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21844	From: rshiel01	Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: Re: Unknown brass FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21845	From: Loren Martell	Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: FS - Logging Items Sold & Still Available
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21846	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/6/2014
Subject: Re: Unknown brass FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21847	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 2/6/2014
Subject: Re: Unknown brass FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21848	From: JP Barger	Date: 2/7/2014
Subject: Walthers Part Number C 924-set of 4 Reefer Hatches-originally for Wa
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21849	From: Mike Bauers 55	Date: 2/7/2014
Subject: Mystery Art.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21850	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/7/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Art.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21851	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/7/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Art.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21852	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: P L T-1 Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21853	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21854	From: cwrailman	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21855	From: Mike Bauers 55	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21856	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21857	From: rick flaherty	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21858	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21859	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: New trolley
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21860	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21861	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21862	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21863	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21864	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: New trolley
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21865	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21866	From: 23weldon	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: New trolley
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21867	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: New trolley
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21868	From: protowatchdog.geo	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: slightly off topic: atlas custom line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21869	From: protowatchdog.geo	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: hotco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21870	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: slightly off topic: atlas custom line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21871	From: louis niederlander	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: slightly off topic: atlas custom line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21872	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: slightly off topic: atlas custom line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21873	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: hotco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21874	From: louis niederlander	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: slightly off topic: atlas custom line
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21875	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21876	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21877	From: dlsprite2003	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21878	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21879	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21880	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21881	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21882	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21883	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21884	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21885	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21886	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21887	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21888	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21889	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21890	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21891	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21892	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21893	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21894	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21895	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21896	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21897	From: Alfred Galli	Date: 2/15/2014
Subject: Brass 4-4-0 for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21898	From: Alfred Galli	Date: 2/15/2014
Subject: Brass Fujiyama A&LM 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21899	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 2/15/2014
Subject: Fwd: Riding The Rails Of The Lone Ranger
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21900	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/15/2014
Subject: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21901	From: erieberk	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21902	From: erieberk	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender? [3 Attachm...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21903	From: erieberk	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21904	From: erieberk	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21905	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21906	From: don_hud	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21907	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21908	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21909	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21910	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: metal rot
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21911	From: asleepy60	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: For Sale - Old Time Flat Car Kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21912	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21913	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21914	From: william witte	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: metal rot
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21915	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21916	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21917	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21918	From: ANTHONY Stanford	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: metal rot
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21919	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21920	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: metal rot
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21921	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21922	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Train life (was todays finds etc)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21923	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Brass 4-4-0 for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21924	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Brass 4-4-0 for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21925	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21926	From: erieberk	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21927	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21928	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Help identify this 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21929	From: Glen Wasson	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21930	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21931	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21932	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21933	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21934	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21935	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21936	From: Bruce Pryor	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21937	From: erieberk	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21938	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21939	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21940	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21941	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21942	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21943	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21944	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21945	From: oljoe	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21946	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Penn Line Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21947	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21948	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21949	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21950	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21951	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: OT: CBI theater, WW 2s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21952	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: OT: CBI theater, WW 2s
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21953	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21954	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21955	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21956	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21957	From: greenbrier614	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21958	From: mrrwarehouse	Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21959	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21960	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21961	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21962	From: kenrobbins39	Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Red Ball castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21963	From: mrrwarehouse	Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21964	From: John Webster	Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21965	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/23/2014
Subject: Today's Finds At The Train Show - now Linotypes and Hornby Dublo..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21966	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/23/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21967	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21968	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21969	From: saddlewood1	Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Penn Line T-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21970	From: erieberk	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21971	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21972	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21973	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21974	From: kenrobbins39	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21975	From: luvprr2003	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line T-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21976	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line T-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21977	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21978	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21979	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21980	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21981	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21982	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21983	From: louis niederlander	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21984	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21985	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21986	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21987	From: greenbrier614	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21988	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21989	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21990	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21991	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21992	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21993	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21994	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Metal Alloy Discussion - Message for Owner Don..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21995	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion - Message for Owner Don..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21996	From: greenbrier614	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21997	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21998	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 21999	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22000	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22001	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion - Message for Owner Don..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22002	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22003	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22004	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion - Message for Owner Don..
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22005	From: scrimjimmy	Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: 19th Annual Model Train Show & Swap Meet March 9th Cedarburg, WI
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22006	From: greenbrier614	Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22007	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22008	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22009	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22010	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22011	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22012	From: rick flaherty	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22013	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22014	From: trainliker	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22015	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22016	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22017	From: nvrr49	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22018	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22019	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22020	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22021	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22022	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22023	From: Mike	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22024	From: Mike	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22025	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22026	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22027	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22028	From: trainliker	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22029	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22031	From: mrrwarehouse	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22032	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22033	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22034	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22035	From: jbark76	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22036	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22037	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22038	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22039	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22040	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22041	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22042	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22043	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22044	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22045	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22046	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22047	From: bvasilion@ameritech.net	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22048	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22049	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22050	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22051	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22052	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22053	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22054	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22055	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22056	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22057	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22058	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22059	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22060	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22061	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22062	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22063	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Globe Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22064	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Globe Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22065	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Globe Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22066	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22067	From: corlissbs	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22068	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Globe Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22069	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22070	From: Askerberg	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22071	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22072	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22073	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22074	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22075	From: corlissbs	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22076	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22077	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22078	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22079	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22080	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22081	From: trainliker	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars - glue
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22082	From: Graeme	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22083	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22084	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars - glue [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22085	From: Graeme	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22086	From: John Webster	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22087	From: river_dweller_ohio	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Need Help Identifying 50' Gondola
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22088	From: reed.estabrook	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: Need Help Identifying 50' Gondola [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22089	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: Need Help Identifying 50' Gondola [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22090	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22091	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22092	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: A couple new finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22093	From: saddlewood1	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22094	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: A couple new finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22095	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: A couple new finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22096	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Today's train show finds....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22097	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: Today's train show finds....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22098	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: Today's train show finds....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22099	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22100	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: A couple new finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22101	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22102	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22103	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22104	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22105	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22106	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22107	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22108	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22109	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22110	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22111	From: saddlewood1	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22112	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22113	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22114	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22115	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22116	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22117	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22118	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22119	From: Larry	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22120	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22121	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22122	From: rick flaherty	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22123	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22124	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22125	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22126	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22127	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22128	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22129	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22130	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22131	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22132	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22133	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22134	From: maryinvt2	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22135	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22136	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22137	From: maryinvt2	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22138	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22139	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22140	From: maryinvt2	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22141	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22142	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22143	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22144	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22145	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22146	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22147	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22148	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22149	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22150	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22151	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22152	From: dwaite2000	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: while on a 'motor' topic
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22153	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22154	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22155	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22156	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22157	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22158	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22159	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22160	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22161	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22162	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22163	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22164	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22165	From: greenbrier614	Date: 3/13/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22166	From: VtHam	Date: 3/13/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22167	From: Mike Christian	Date: 3/14/2014
Subject: Another URRO (Unidentified RR Object)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22168	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Central Lines car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22169	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22170	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 3/16/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22171	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22172	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/16/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22173	From: prandn	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: FS - Logging & Other Items - Priced Reduced
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22174	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22175	From: dwaite2000	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Ambroid Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22176	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Ambroid Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22177	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Ambroid Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22178	From: Steven D Johnson	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Bronco HO scale ACF Center Flow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22179	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Bronco HO scale ACF Center Flow
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22180	From: jackdziadul	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Ambroid Baggage Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22181	From: Richard White	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22182	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: [BM_RR] [Fwd: [vintageHO] Ambroid Baggage Car]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22184	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22185	From: david_helber	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22186	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22187	From: garyp552002	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Circa 1980 Bachmann HO Combine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22188	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22189	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Circa 1980 Bachmann HO Combine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22190	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22191	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22192	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22193	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22194	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22195	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22196	From: david_helber	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Who Made These '50s Buildings?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22197	From: david_helber	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22198	From: david_helber	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22199	From: trainliker	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22200	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22201	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22202	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22203	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22204	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: How to make......... Re: [vintageHO] Re: Who Made These '50s Buildin
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22205	From: Carl Neste	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22206	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22207	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22208	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22209	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22210	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22211	From: trainliker	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22212	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22213	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22214	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit pleas
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22215	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit pleas
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22216	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22217	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22218	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22219	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22220	From: daddy8083	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22221	From: larry Smith	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22222	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22223	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22224	From: albyrno	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit pleas
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22225	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22226	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22227	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22228	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22229	From: rcjge	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22230	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22231	From: rcjge	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22232	From: rcjge	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22233	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Globe, "Gold Kit A98," dummy F unit - Jay W: Bingo !
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22234	From: bvasilion@ameritech.net	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22235	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22236	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22237	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22238	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22239	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22240	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit pleas
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22241	From: david_helber	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22242	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22243	From: david_helber	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22244	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22245	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22246	From: david_helber	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22247	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22248	From: david_helber	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22249	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22250	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22251	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22252	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Globe F Units, was Tell me.....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22253	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22254	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22255	From: trainliker	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22256	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22257	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22258	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22259	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22260	From: sprinthag	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22261	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22262	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22263	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22264	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22265	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22266	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22267	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22268	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22269	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22270	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22271	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22272	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22273	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22274	From: herb1013	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22275	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22276	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22277	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22278	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22279	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22280	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22281	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22282	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22283	From: 23weldon	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22284	From: willard seehorn	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22285	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22286	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22287	From: david_helber	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22288	From: david_helber	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22289	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22290	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22291	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22292	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22293	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22294	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22295	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22296	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22297	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22298	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22299	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22300	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22301	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22302	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22303	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22304	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22305	From: willard seehorn	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22306	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22307	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22308	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22309	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22310	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22311	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22312	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22313	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22314	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22315	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22316	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22317	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22318	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22319	From: 23weldon	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22320	From: david_helber	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22321	From: david_helber	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22322	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22323	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Marnold, was; Zamac & Sal-Met flux
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22324	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22325	From: trainliker	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22326	From: trainliker	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22327	From: wlon17	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Information wanted on Fleischmann diesel model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22328	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Information wanted on Fleischmann diesel model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22329	From: david_helber	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Information wanted on Fleischmann diesel model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22330	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Information wanted on Fleischmann diesel model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22331	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22332	From: trainliker	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22333	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22334	From: corlissbs	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22335	From: trainliker	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22336	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22337	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22338	From: Tertius	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22339	From: rxensen	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22340	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22341	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22342	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22343	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22344	From: sprinthag	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Varney F3 parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22345	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Varney F3 parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22346	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22347	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22349	From: rcjge	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Varney F3 parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22350	From: rcjge	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Swap, Mantua Eight Ball for RRosi tender with Franklin Booster
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22351	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22352	From: Dale Smith	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22353	From: Dale Smith	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22354	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22355	From: Ola Sjöblom	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22356	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22357	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22358	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Varney F3 parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22359	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22361	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Varney F3 parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22362	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22363	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22364	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22365	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22366	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22367	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22368	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22369	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22370	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22371	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22372	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22373	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22374	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: FW: [vintageHO] Steam Engine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22375	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22376	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22377	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22378	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22379	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22380	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22381	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: FW: [vintageHO] Steam Engine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22382	From: david_helber	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22383	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22384	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22385	From: david_helber	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22386	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22387	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22388	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22389	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22390	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22391	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22392	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22393	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22394	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22395	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22396	From: Wally Weart	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22397	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22398	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22399	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22400	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/29/2014
Subject: Re: Time (was New Header Photo)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22401	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 3/29/2014
Subject: Re: Time (was New Header Photo)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22402	From: david_helber	Date: 3/29/2014
Subject: Mystery Old Time Cars (prob.OT-not vintage)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22403	From: david_helber	Date: 3/29/2014
Subject: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22404	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22405	From: jimwatermanboeing	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Jim Heckard
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22406	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: Jim Heckard
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22407	From: Tertius	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22408	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22409	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22410	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22411	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22412	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22413	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22414	From: david_helber	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22415	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22416	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22417	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22418	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22419	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22420	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22421	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22422	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22423	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22424	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22425	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22426	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22427	From: rdj6737	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Old Time Cars (prob.OT-not vintage)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22428	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22429	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22430	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22431	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22432	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22433	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22434	From: dwaite2000	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22435	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22436	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22437	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22438	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22439	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22440	From: wilmeaux	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22441	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22442	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22443	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22444	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22445	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22446	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22447	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22448	From: wilmeaux	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22449	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22450	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Old Time Cars (prob.OT-not vintage)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22451	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22452	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22453	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22454	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22455	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22456	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22457	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22458	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Scalite lighting: anyone still use or install these?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22459	From: trainliker	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22460	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22461	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Scalite lighting: anyone still use or install these?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22462	From: trainliker	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22463	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Crescent Models E6/A-B
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22464	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22465	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22466	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22467	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22468	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22469	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Scalite lighting: anyone still use or install these?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22470	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22471	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22472	From: dwaite2000	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22473	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22474	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22475	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22476	From: trainliker	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22477	From: rcjge	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22478	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: A "lady" for Oscar...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22479	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22480	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22481	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22482	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22483	From: al45390	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Gilbert Pre-WWII H0 Track
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22484	From: david_helber	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22485	From: david_helber	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22486	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Pre-WWII Gilbert H0 track
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22487	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22488	From: gssfhc_wvc	Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22489	From: rcjge	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22490	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: : The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22491	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22492	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22493	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22494	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory- Tenshodo 0-6-0T-new hunt...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22495	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory- Tenshodo 0-6-0T-new hunt...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22496	From: dst8596587@aol.com	Date: 4/5/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22497	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 4/6/2014
Subject: Dynapack Mark IV
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22498	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/7/2014
Subject: Re: Dynapack Mark IV
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22499	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 4/7/2014
Subject: Re: Dynapack Mark IV
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22500	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Re: Dynapack Mark IV
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22501	From: texpearson@aol.com	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Fw: texpearson@aol.com
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22502	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Varney loco parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22503	From: rcjge	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22504	From: rcjge	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Vintage Locomotive weights....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22505	From: david_helber	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22506	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22507	From: david_helber	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22508	From: Denis Long	Date: 4/9/2014
Subject: Re: [vintageHO Magnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22509	From: MWM	Date: 4/9/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22510	From: wlon17	Date: 4/9/2014
Subject: Pictures of old couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22511	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/9/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22512	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Pictures of old couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22513	From: david_helber	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22514	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Varney Streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22515	From: david_helber	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22516	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22517	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22518	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22519	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22520	From: greenbrier614	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: [vintageHO Magnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22521	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: [vintageHO Magnetizing Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22522	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop coupler installation:
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22523	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop coupler installation:
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22524	From: anypaddler	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22525	From: david_helber	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22526	From: david_helber	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop coupler installation:
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22527	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22528	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22529	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22530	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22531	From: Dale Smith	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22532	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22533	From: larry Smith	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22534	From: rcjge	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Locomotive weights....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22535	From: rcjge	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22536	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22537	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22538	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22539	From: rcjge	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22540	From: rcjge	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22541	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22542	From: rcjge	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22543	From: david_helber	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22544	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: John English 2-8-2 Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22545	From: Riverboy	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Need Help With Parts ID
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22546	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-2 Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22547	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-2 Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22548	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-2 Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22549	From: rcjge	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22550	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: Need Help With Parts ID
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22551	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22552	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22553	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: Need Help With Parts ID
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22554	From: rcjge	Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22555	From: mwbauers	Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22556	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22558	From: Brad Smith	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Fw: News
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22559	From: Denis Long	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Resin Casting
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22561	From: rcjge	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22562	From: Brad Smith	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: More Crap From texpearson
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22563	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22564	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22565	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: More Crap From texpearson
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22566	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22567	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22568	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: More Crap From texpearson
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22569	From: David J. Starr	Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22570	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: History of Kemtron
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22571	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22572	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: History of Kemtron
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22573	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: History of Kemtron
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22574	From: Carl Neste	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: History of Kemtron
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22575	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22576	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: History of Kemtron
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22577	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Resin Casting
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22578	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Resin Casting
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22579	From: kenrobbins39	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Resin Casting
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22580	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22581	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22582	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22583	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22584	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22585	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22586	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22587	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22588	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22589	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22590	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22591	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22592	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22593	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22594	From: david_helber	Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22595	From: Charlie	Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22596	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22597	From: dwaite2000	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22598	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22599	From: david_helber	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22600	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22601	From: Richard White	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22602	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22603	From: trainliker	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22604	From: dwaite2000	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22605	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22606	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: hook and loop couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22607	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22608	From: dwaite2000	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Varney residue question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22609	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22610	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Varney residue question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22611	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22612	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Varney residue question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22613	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22614	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22615	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22616	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22617	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Varney residue question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22618	From: Charlie	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22619	From: docdenny34	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22620	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22621	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22622	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22623	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22624	From: pcslrr	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: StromBecKer Columbian
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22625	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Model Power Has Closed Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22626	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22627	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22628	From: thealamo	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22629	From: Don Grant	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22630	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22631	From: corlissbs	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22632	From: david_helber	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22633	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 4/24/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22634	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22635	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22636	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: new toy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22637	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: new toy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22638	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: new toy
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22639	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: New, ancient F3's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22640	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: New, ancient F3's [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22641	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22642	From: david_helber	Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Hustler drive variations
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22643	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Dual Query
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22644	From: albyrno	Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Hustler drive variations
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22645	From: vancampbell64	Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Hustler drive variations
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22646	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Dual Query
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22647	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22648	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22649	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22650	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22651	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Early Tenshodo?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22652	From: JP Barger	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22653	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22654	From: erieberk	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] StromBecKer Columbian
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22655	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Athearn Pacifics wanted
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22656	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22657	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22658	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22659	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22660	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22661	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacifics wanted
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22662	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacifics wanted
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22663	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacifics wanted
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22664	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacifics wanted
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22665	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22666	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22667	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22668	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22669	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22670	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22671	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22672	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22673	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22674	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22675	From: david_helber	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22676	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22677	From: oljoe	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22678	From: vancampbell64	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22679	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22680	From: David J. Starr	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22681	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22682	From: roadwarriorbob	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: What manufacturer made couplers like this?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22683	From: Dale Weaver	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Tyco sets
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22684	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22685	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22686	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Tyco sets
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22687	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Tyco sets
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22688	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22689	From: Ola Sjöblom	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: What manufacturer made couplers like this? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22690	From: Robert Randolph	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: What manufacturer made couplers like this?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22691	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22692	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22693	From: jay matz	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: What manufacturer made couplers like this?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22694	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22695	From: Brad Smith	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22696	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22697	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: What manufacturer made couplers like this?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22698	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22699	From: mwbauers	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22700	From: mwbauers	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22701	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tyco sets
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22702	From: david_helber	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Mantua Booster with Sloped Tanks?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22703	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Re: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22704	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22705	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Re: Tyco sets
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22706	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Re: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22707	From: seekingho	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22708	From: willard seehorn	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22709	From: luvprr2003	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22710	From: Larry	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22711	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22712	From: Dale Smith	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22713	From: fahey0	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22714	From: Askerberg	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22715	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22716	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22717	From: maryinvt2	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22718	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22719	From: Charlie	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22720	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Just mentioning....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22721	From: Graeme	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22722	From: Richard White	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22723	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22724	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22725	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22726	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22727	From: albyrno	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22728	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22729	From: dwaite2000	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22730	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22731	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22732	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22733	From: ohiocanal	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22734	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22735	From: Larry Stevenson	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22736	From: Rick Jones	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22737	From: Carl Neste	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22738	From: Bill Scott	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22739	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22740	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22741	From: albyrno	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22742	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22743	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22744	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22745	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22746	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22747	From: Brad Smith	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22748	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22749	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22750	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22751	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22752	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22753	From: roger_aultman	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22754	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22755	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22756	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22757	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22758	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22759	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22760	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22761	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22762	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22763	From: willard seehorn	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22764	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22765	From: Jeff Ellis	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22766	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22767	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22768	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22769	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22770	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22771	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22772	From: anypaddler	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22773	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22774	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22775	From: roblmclear	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22776	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22777	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22778	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22779	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22780	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22781	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22782	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22783	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22784	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22785	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22786	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22787	From: david_helber	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22788	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22789	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping and secrets
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22790	From: Graeme	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22791	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22792	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22793	From: trainliker	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22794	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping and secrets
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22795	From: vancampbell64	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22796	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22797	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22798	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22799	From: david_helber	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22800	From: jackdziadul	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22801	From: Brad Smith	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22802	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22803	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22804	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22805	From: hmbb56	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Vintage 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22806	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22807	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22808	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22809	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22810	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22811	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22812	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22813	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22814	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22815	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22816	From: trainliker	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22817	From: trainliker	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22818	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22819	From: Rick Jones	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22820	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22821	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22822	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22823	From: jimwatermanboeing	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22824	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22825	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22826	From: william witte	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22827	From: hmbb56	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22828	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22829	From: louis niederlander	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22830	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22831	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22832	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22833	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22834	From: vancampbell64	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22835	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Gorre & Dephatid Cars, John Allen Schemes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22836	From: vancampbell64	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22837	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Whoops Payment Details, Gorre & Dephatid Cars,
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22838	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22839	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22840	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22841	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22842	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22843	From: Dale Weaver	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: FW: Tyco sets
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22844	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22845	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22846	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22847	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22848	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22849	From: trainliker	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22850	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22851	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22852	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/17/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22853	From: Chris B	Date: 5/17/2014
Subject: Vintage imported HO brass rolling stock models - seeking unpainted -
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22854	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/17/2014
Subject: Re: Virginian Brass -- was Sniping, was Two Globe Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22855	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/17/2014
Subject: Re: Enough Already
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22856	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/18/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22857	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Re: Enough Already
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22858	From: rcjge	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22859	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22860	From: saddlewood1	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: DC-71 & A Motors
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22861	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22862	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22863	From: rcjge	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22864	From: Dennis Kunkel	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22865	From: rcjge	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22866	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22867	From: Dennis Kunkel	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22868	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22869	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22870	From: anypaddler	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Bear Locomotive (was Hobbytown F7 kit)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22871	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22872	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22873	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22874	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Devore - Roundhouse Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22875	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/25/2014
Subject: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22876	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/25/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22877	From: nvrr49	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22878	From: erieberk	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22879	From: erieberk	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] StromBecKer Columbian
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22880	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22881	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22882	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22883	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22884	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22885	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22886	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: New Strombecker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22887	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Strombecker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22888	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Strombecker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22889	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Strombecker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22890	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Strombecker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22891	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22892	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22893	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22894	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22895	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22896	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22897	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Massimo Vignelli Dies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22898	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: Massimo Vignelli Dies
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22899	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Old Pioneer was Re: [vintageHO] New Strombecker
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22900	From: trainliker	Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old Pioneer was Re: [vintageHO] New Strombecker [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22901	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old Pioneer was Re: [vintageHO] New Strombecker [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22902	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old Pioneer was Re: [vintageHO] New Strombecker [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22903	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Last Night's Haul
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22904	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Last Night's Haul
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22905	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 6/9/2014
Subject: Aluminum Cast Alco PA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22906	From: jbark76	Date: 6/10/2014
Subject: Re: Aluminum Cast Alco PA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22907	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/10/2014
Subject: Re: Aluminum Cast Alco PA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22908	From: Dr. Robert Driggers	Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: steam engine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22909	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Aluminum Cast Alco PA [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22910	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: steam engine
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22911	From: sprinthag	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Varney Dockside on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22912	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22913	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22914	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22915	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22916	From: oljoeoh	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22917	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22918	From: Denis Long	Date: 6/14/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22919	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/14/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22920	From: saddlewood1	Date: 6/16/2014
Subject: Old Model Data
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22921	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 6/17/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22922	From: Denis Long	Date: 6/18/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22923	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 6/18/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22924	From: Denis Long	Date: 6/19/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22925	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/19/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22926	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/22/2014
Subject: Sorting Stripwood
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22927	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 6/22/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting Stripwood
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22928	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting Stripwood
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22929	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting Stripwood
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22930	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22931	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22932	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22933	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22934	From: Doug Harris	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22935	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22936	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22937	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22938	From: rcjge	Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Instructions for
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22939	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22940	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22941	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3233
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22942	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22943	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22944	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22945	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/28/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22946	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 6/28/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22947	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/28/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22948	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22949	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22950	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22951	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: VINTAGE SCHRADER - ANDECO HO SCALE BRASS EP-4 ELECTRIC NEW HAVEN LOC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22952	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22953	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22954	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: VINTAGE SCHRADER - ANDECO HO SCALE BRASS EP-4 ELECTRIC NEW HAVEN
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22955	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22956	From: Dale Smith	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22957	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22958	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22959	From: corlissbs	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22960	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22961	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: BRASSTRAINS.COM - HO Red Ball LV Lehigh Valley 4-2-4T Inspection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22962	From: greenbrier614	Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: BRASSTRAINS.COM - HO Red Ball LV Lehigh Valley 4-2-4T Inspection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22963	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: BRASSTRAINS.COM - HO Red Ball LV Lehigh Valley 4-2-4T Inspection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22964	From: b60bp	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: For Sale: several Vintage Kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22965	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22966	From: rshiel01	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Kar-Line boxes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22967	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kar-Line boxes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22968	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22969	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22970	From: cwrailman	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22971	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22972	From: cwrailman	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22973	From: Denis Long	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22974	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22975	From: larry Smith	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22976	From: maryinvt2	Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Speaking of 4-4-0's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22977	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Speaking of 4-4-0's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22978	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22979	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22980	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Re: question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22981	From: rrdeffinger	Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Re: Speaking of 4-4-0's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22982	From: rrdeffinger	Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Re: question
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22983	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Amtrak Gangdam style.......
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22984	From: corlissbs	Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: Hobbytown For Sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22985	From: maryinvt2	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Speaking of 4-4-0's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22986	From: cwrailman	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22987	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22988	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22989	From: Doug Harris	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22990	From: Model RailRoad Warehouse	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22991	From: the_plainsman	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !? [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22992	From: Robert Driggers	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22993	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !? [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22994	From: the_plainsman	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22995	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 7/11/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22996	From: Dr. Robert Driggers	Date: 7/11/2014
Subject: Re: Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22997	From: saddlewood1	Date: 7/12/2014
Subject: VCR TAPES
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22998	From: shooksbronze	Date: 7/12/2014
Subject: Re: Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001
Group: vintageHO	Message: 22999	From: saddlewood1	Date: 7/13/2014
Subject: Rock Island VHS Tapes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23000	From: rcjge	Date: 7/16/2014
Subject: Vintage rolling Stock for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23001	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/17/2014
Subject: Mystery Chassis/Floor, Subj. was Espee Red Ball Locomotive
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23002	From: newyorkcentralfan	Date: 7/17/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23003	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Chassis/Floor, Subj. was Espee Red Ball Locomotive [1 At
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23004	From: iskandr@...	Date: 7/19/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23005	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/27/2014
Subject: Cast Bronze ALCO PA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23006	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/27/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze ALCO PA [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23007	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze ALCO PA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23008	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze ALCO PA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23009	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Cast bronze EMD FT's
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23010	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23011	From: Garry Spear	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23012	From: trainliker	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23013	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23014	From: louis niederlander	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23015	From: the_plainsman	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23016	From: the_plainsman	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23017	From: louis niederlander	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23018	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23019	From: Doug Harris	Date: 7/30/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23020	From: Maynard Keith Franklin	Date: 7/31/2014
Subject: Holiday in Hong Kong.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23021	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 8/1/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday in Hong Kong.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23022	From: denverrails	Date: 8/1/2014
Subject: American Flyer? "critter" with side rods
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23023	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/1/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23024	From: Dale Smith	Date: 8/1/2014
Subject: Re: American Flyer? "critter" with side rods
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23025	From: denverrails	Date: 8/3/2014
Subject: Re: American Flyer? "critter" with side rods
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23026	From: saddlewood1	Date: 8/5/2014
Subject: Mantua Catalog
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23027	From: rcjge	Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23028	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23029	From: rcjge	Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23030	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23031	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23032	From: rcjge	Date: 8/9/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23033	From: semaphorsignal	Date: 8/13/2014
Subject: Wanted To Buy: American OO Scale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23034	From: b60bp	Date: 8/17/2014
Subject: For Sale: Walthers and Wright Ent Passenger Car Kits
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23035	From: maryinvt2	Date: 8/17/2014
Subject: Main Rods Needed for a Mantua/Tyco 0-6-0 Shifter
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23036	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/18/2014
Subject: Re: Main Rods Needed for a Mantua/Tyco 0-6-0 Shifter
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23037	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 8/18/2014
Subject: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23038	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/18/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23039	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23040	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23041	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: American Beauty GN Empire Builder
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23042	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: Vintage thoughts Re: [vintageHO] American Beauty GN Empire Builder
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23043	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23044	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 8/20/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Empire Builder
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23045	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/20/2014
Subject: New eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23046	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 8/20/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23047	From: Richard White	Date: 8/21/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23048	From: Germain Golembowski	Date: 8/21/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay [4 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23049	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 8/21/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23050	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23051	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Carstens Publications, RIP
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23052	From: cvmrc	Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23053	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23054	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/23/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23055	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23056	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23057	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23058	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23059	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23060	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23061	From: trainliker	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23062	From: trainguru	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23063	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23064	From: thealamo	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23065	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23066	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23067	From: rockrailsnsnow	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: FS Bowser Reference Manual/General Catalog
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23068	From: roger_aultman	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23069	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23070	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: (no subject)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23071	From: mrrwarehouse	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23072	From: corlissbs	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23073	From: Michael Greene	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: FS Bowser Reference Manual/General Catalog
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23074	From: thealamo	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23075	From: Valerie Smith	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23076	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23077	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Carstens Publications current status
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23078	From: corlissbs	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications current status
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23079	From: 23weldon	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run> Where do we go from here?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23080	From: Brad Smith	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run> Where do we go from here?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23081	From: Doug Harris	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications current status
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23082	From: Brad Smith	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications current status
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23083	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Old brass on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23084	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23085	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23086	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23087	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23088	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23089	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23090	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23091	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23092	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23093	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23094	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23095	From: Rick Jones	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23096	From: Doug Harris	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23097	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: O/T NRHS Bulletin, was Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23098	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: O/T Magazine Critiques, was Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23099	From: Doug Harris	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: O/T Magazine Critiques, was Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23100	From: thealamo	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23101	From: roblmclear	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23102	From: Denis Long	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23103	From: Denis Long	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: O/T Magazine Critiques, was Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23104	From: Denis Long	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: O/T Magazine Critiques, was Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23105	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23106	From: Doug Harris	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23107	From: Denis Long	Date: 9/1/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23110	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/1/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23111	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/2/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23112	From: Denis Long	Date: 9/3/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23113	From: oklacnw	Date: 9/4/2014
Subject: Re: RMC, et al
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23114	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/5/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23115	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/5/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23116	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23117	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23118	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23119	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23120	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Picked Up At The Train Show Today
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23121	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23122	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23123	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23124	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23125	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23126	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23127	From: Bill Porter	Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: New To Me Husky with Missing Horns
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23128	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: Re: New To Me Husky with Missing Horns
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23129	From: Graeme	Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: New To Me Husky with Missing Horns
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23130	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Another you tube of the NY Society of Model Engineers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23131	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/9/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23132	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Super Scale NYC EMC 600 h.p. SW-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23133	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/14/2014
Subject: Varney [?] pendulum car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23134	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/14/2014
Subject: Re: Varney [?] pendulum car
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23135	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/15/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23136	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/15/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23137	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23138	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23139	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23140	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23141	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23142	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23143	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23144	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23145	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23146	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23147	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23148	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23149	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23150	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23151	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: A little bit of hidden treasure
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23152	From: Garry Spear	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23153	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23154	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23155	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23156	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23157	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23158	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23159	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23160	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23161	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23162	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23163	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23164	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23165	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23166	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23167	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23168	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locom
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23169	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23170	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23171	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23172	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: E & H Traction Co.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23173	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23174	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: "Denise" GN-Y-1, yeah I think I have one
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23175	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23176	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23177	From: ajfergusonca	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23178	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23179	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: E & H Traction Co. [3 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23180	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23181	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23182	From: Dave Robison	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23183	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23184	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23185	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta/Central Lines Mfg. mystery
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23186	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta/Central Lines Mfg. mystery
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23187	From: Richard White	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta/Central Lines Mfg. mystery
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23188	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23189	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23190	From: docdenny34	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23191	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23192	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23193	From: greenbrier614	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23194	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23195	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23196	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23197	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23198	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23199	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23200	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23201	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23202	From: anypaddler	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23203	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23204	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23205	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23206	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23207	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23208	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23209	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23210	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23211	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23212	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: More on Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23213	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1 [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23214	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23215	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23216	From: greenbrier614	Date: 9/24/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23217	From: greenbrier614	Date: 9/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23218	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/24/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23219	From: anypaddler	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/Varney Alco RS-11
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23220	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23221	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/Varney Alco RS-11
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23222	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23223	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23224	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1 [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23225	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23226	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23227	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23228	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good value?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23229	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23230	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23231	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23232	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Double 0 Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23233	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23234	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23235	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23236	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23237	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23238	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23239	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23240	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23241	From: saddlewood1	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23242	From: Denis Long	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23243	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23244	From: Wally Weart	Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi models
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23245	From: Alan Kilby	Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good value?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23246	From: greenbrier614	Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23247	From: Denis Long	Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Expo Pacific
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23248	From: cwrailman	Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23249	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23250	From: maryinvt2	Date: 10/1/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23251	From: cwrailman	Date: 10/1/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23252	From: the_plainsman	Date: 10/2/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23253	From: John Webster	Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23254	From: b60bp	Date: 10/5/2014
Subject: For Sale: a few Vintage Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23255	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: ID Help + Suzuki & Edwards
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23256	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: ID Help + Suzuki & Edwards [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23257	From: the_plainsman	Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: ID Help + Suzuki & Edwards [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23258	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/10/2014
Subject: HO and on30 Parts
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23259	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 10/11/2014
Subject: Mantua metal passenger cars.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23260	From: trainguru	Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: For Sale: a few Vintage Freight Cars
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23261	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Pre-1949 Varney car and kit collection for sale.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23262	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Reducing inventory of older HO items, redux.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23263	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23264	From: luvprr2003	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23265	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23266	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23267	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23268	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23269	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23270	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23271	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23272	From: trainliker	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23273	From: Dave Robison	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23274	From: Dave Robison	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23275	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23276	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23277	From: Dennis Kunkel	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23278	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23279	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23280	From: 23weldon	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23281	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23282	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23283	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay ("New One" write up link)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23284	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23285	From: Keith Douglass	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23286	From: Riverboy	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay ("New One" write up link)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23287	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 10/23/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23288	From: jbark76	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Railroad Model Craftsman
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23289	From: thealamo	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Railroad Model Craftsman
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23290	From: oklacnw	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23291	From: jbark76	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Railroad Model Craftsman
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23292	From: thealamo	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Railroad Model Craftsman
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23293	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23294	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23295	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23296	From: Brad Smith	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23297	From: Brad Smith	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Railroad Model Craftsman
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23298	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23299	From: the_plainsman	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23300	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1 [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23301	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23302	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23303	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23304	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23305	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23306	From: Brad Smith	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23307	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Ulrich GN Peaked End GS Gon
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23308	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23309	From: Keith Douglass	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23310	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23311	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23312	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23313	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23314	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23315	From: saddlewood1	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23316	From: saddlewood1	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23317	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23318	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23319	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23320	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23321	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23322	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23323	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23324	From: roblmclear	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23325	From: greenbrier614	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23326	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23327	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23328	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23329	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23330	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23331	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23332	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23333	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23334	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23335	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23336	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23337	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23338	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23339	From: dwaite2000	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23340	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23341	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23342	From: rick flaherty	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23343	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay (MTA song query)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23344	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay (MTA song query)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23345	From: Dale Weaver	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Unsubscribe
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23346	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay (MTA song query)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23347	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23348	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23349	From: jodanjackkayla	Date: 10/30/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23350	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay - now Overseas Shipping Rant
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23351	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay - now Overseas Shipping Rant
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23352	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay - now Overseas Shipping Rant
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23353	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay - now Overseas Shipping Rant
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23354	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Today's vintage finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23355	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23356	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23357	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23358	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23359	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23360	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23361	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23362	From: Garry Spear	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [2 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23363	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/3/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23364	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 11/3/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23365	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 11/3/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23366	From: Dave Robison	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23367	From: corlissbs	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Athearn Scene
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23368	From: Carl Neste	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Scene
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23369	From: corlissbs	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Scene
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23370	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23371	From: Graeme	Date: 11/16/2014
Subject: Hawk Model Company
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23372	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 11/16/2014
Subject: Re: Hawk Model Company
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23373	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/17/2014
Subject: drive belt size?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23374	From: Denis Long	Date: 11/17/2014
Subject: Re: Hawk Model Company
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23375	From: Graeme	Date: 11/17/2014
Subject: Re: Hawk Model Company
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23376	From: ocalicreek	Date: 11/18/2014
Subject: Silver Streak Underframe?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23377	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/18/2014
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Underframe?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23378	From: cwrailman	Date: 11/19/2014
Subject: Not Another $5 Motor
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23379	From: ocalicreek	Date: 11/19/2014
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Underframe?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23380	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/19/2014
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Underframe?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23381	From: bvasilion@ameritech.net	Date: 11/20/2014
Subject: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23382	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/20/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23383	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23384	From: Michael Greene	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23385	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23386	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Anyone remember ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23387	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23388	From: rhbale8	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23389	From: the_plainsman	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23390	From: Richard White	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23391	From: trainliker	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23392	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23393	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23394	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Color match for Green EJ&E
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23395	From: rshiel01	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: RMC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23396	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: RMC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23397	From: trainliker	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: RMC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23398	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: Color match for Green EJ&E [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23399	From: thealamo	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: RMC
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23400	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23401	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Classic model construction
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23402	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23403	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: Classic model construction [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23404	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23405	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23406	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23407	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23408	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23409	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23410	From: jbark76	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23411	From: Denis Long	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23412	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23413	From: Dale Smith	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23414	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23415	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23416	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23417	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23418	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: [EarlyRail] Classic model construction [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23419	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23420	From: albyrno	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: unknown brass tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23421	From: the_plainsman	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: unknown brass tender
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23422	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23423	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23424	From: johnhutnick	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23425	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23426	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23427	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23428	From: Larry	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23429	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23430	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23431	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23432	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23433	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23434	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23435	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23436	From: trainliker	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23437	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23438	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23439	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23440	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23441	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23442	From: johnhutnick	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23443	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23444	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23445	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23446	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23447	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23448	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23449	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23450	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23451	From: trainliker	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat - now Docksider
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23452	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23453	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat - now Docksider
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23454	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Vintage HO collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23455	From: jbark76	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage HO collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23456	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage HO collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23457	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Train show find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23458	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Train show find
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23459	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage HO collection
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23460	From: nvrr49	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Train show. Ambroid
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23461	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23462	From: nvrr49	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23463	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23464	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23465	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23466	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: Open Platform standards.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23467	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23468	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: Open Platform standards.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23469	From: daddy8083	Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: Re: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23470	From: trainguru	Date: 12/2/2014
Subject: Re: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23471	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Allis Chalmers model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23472	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23473	From: corlissbs	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model [1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23474	From: tom bell	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23475	From: Brad Smith	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23476	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23477	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23478	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23479	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23480	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23481	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23482	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23483	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23484	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23485	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23486	From: greenbrier614	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23487	From: 23weldon	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23488	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23489	From: roblmclear	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23490	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23491	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23492	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23493	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23494	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23495	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23496	From: Wobbly913	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23497	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23498	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23499	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23500	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23501	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23502	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23503	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23504	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23505	From: Garry Spear	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Knapp or early Red Ball
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23506	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Knapp or early Red Ball
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23507	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Knapp or early Red Ball
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23508	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Knapp or early Red Ball
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23509	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23510	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23511	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23512	From: oklacnw	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Allis-Chalmers loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23513	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Allis-Chalmers loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23514	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23515	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23516	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Allis-Chalmers loco
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23517	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23518	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23519	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23520	From: Bill Scott	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23521	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23522	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Latest Acquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23523	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23524	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23525	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23526	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23527	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23528	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23529	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23530	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23531	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23532	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23533	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23534	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: The DIY Skytop
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23535	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23536	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23537	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23538	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23539	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23540	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23541	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23542	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: The DIY Skytop [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23543	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23544	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23545	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23546	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23547	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23548	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23549	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23550	From: roblmclear	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23551	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23552	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23553	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23554	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23555	From: Garry Spear	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23556	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23557	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23558	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23559	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23560	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23561	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23562	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23563	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Owner
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23564	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23565	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23566	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23567	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23568	From: larry Smith	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Akane
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23569	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23570	From: oklacnw	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket Cases
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23571	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23572	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket Cases
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23573	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/10/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23574	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/10/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23575	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 12/10/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23576	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 12/11/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23577	From: saddlewood1	Date: 12/11/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23578	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/11/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23579	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23580	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23581	From: wdavis5069	Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: KD #4 Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23582	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: KD #4 Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23583	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: KD #4 Couplers
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23584	From: Garry Spear	Date: 12/17/2014
Subject: FS Knapp, Early Bowser Mountain Boiler
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23585	From: rxensen	Date: 12/18/2014
Subject: Extra 6 wheel passenger trucks
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23586	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/18/2014
Subject: Bubb'ed Hustler: new axle from drill rod?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23587	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 12/19/2014
Subject: Re: Bubb'ed Hustler: new axle from drill rod?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23588	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/19/2014
Subject: Re: Bubb'ed Hustler: new axle from drill rod?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23589	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/19/2014
Subject: Dip or, "stripper," for cleaning old brass - what do you use?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23590	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/20/2014
Subject: Hit The Motherlode
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23591	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hit The Motherlode
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23592	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hit The Motherlode
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23593	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hit The Motherlode
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23594	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23595	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23596	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB? [5 Attachments]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23597	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Jim Heckard Update
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23598	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Jim Heckard Update
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23599	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Jim Heckard Update
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23600	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23601	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Jim Heckard Update
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23602	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23603	From: Raymond Lorts, Sr,	Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: (no subject)
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23604	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Holiday wishes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23605	From: rick flaherty	Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday wishes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23606	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday wishes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23607	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday wishes
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23608	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3374[1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23609	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23610	From: oklacnw	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3374[1 Attachment]
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23611	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23612	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23613	From: bowtiefan47	Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: How do I sell some old HO kits?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23614	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23615	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: Re: How do I sell some old HO kits?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23616	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Lindsay Stubby diesel: looking for motor unit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23617	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Lindsay Stubby diesel: looking for motor unit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23618	From: cwrailman	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Lindsay Stubby diesel: looking for motor unit
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23619	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23620	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23621	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23622	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23623	From: bowtiefan47	Date: 12/28/2014
Subject: Old Varney, MDC kits for sale
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23624	From: bowtiefan47	Date: 12/28/2014
Subject: Old HO for sale.
Group: vintageHO	Message: 23625	From: b60bp	Date: 12/31/2014
Subject: Old HO For Sale

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 21774	From: prandn	Date: 1/1/2014
Subject: FS: Carl Arendt / Cox US Army Items / PFM – LTM

Happy New Year!     FS:  Carl Arendt Layout Books ( Prices reduced again )   Small Layout Scrapbook, Model Railraoding in Very Small Spaces:  Like New, $17.50 + postage.   Creating Micro Layouts, Model Railraoding in Extremely Small Spaces:  Used Very Good, $65 + postage.   52 Micro Layout You Can Build, Model Railraoding in Extremely Small Spaces:  Good, $42.50 + postage.   Buy all three ( $125.00 ) & I will pay the postage ( Continental US Lower 48 Only - Others actual postage less $5 )     FS:  Cox HO Scale Electric Trains, RTR US Army items   #612070 - U.S. Army 40' Box Car, $10.00 + postage. #615130 - U.S. Army Flat Car w/ Truck & Trailer, $12.50 + postage. #615070 U.S. Army Flat Car w/ Road Grader, $12.50 + postage. #6150-8 - U.S. Army Flat Car w/ Tank, $12.500 + postage. #623090 - U.S. Army Railway Gun, $12.50 + postage.    Buy all five:  $55.00 + postage.   http://ho-scaletrains.net/coxtrainsresource/id7.html     Pacific Fast Mail ( Price reduced )   PFM – LTM, Locomotive \ Tender Module, NIB:  $30.00  ( To equip one Steam Locomotive for Sound & Constant Intensity Lighting )   Payment by PayPal or USPS Money Order ( Next business day shipping ) or Bank Check ( 5 business day hold before shipping.   Pictures available on request. Please contact me off list.   As always, I will entertain any reasonable offer. Loren Martell Beaverton, OR 97006 503-810-9018

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21775	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Penn Line F7 question

I have recently acquired a Penn Line F7 dual truck drive. I received it in pieces as the previous owner tried to make it run. After fixing it, I went to assemble it and can't figure out how. I may be missing parts, for sure the drive shaft between the trucks, which could add to the difficulty. Does anyone have pics of this unit without the shell or whatever that they would post? Or otherwise give me a clue? Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21776	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question

Attachments : Penn Line F7.jpg Hello Ken, See if the attached photos help.  In this one the rear truck is installed in the body, the fuel tank is on the table and the front truck and drive shaft ready to be installed.  Then the fuel tank would be installed. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ken Starcher Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 2:28 AM To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line F7 question     I have recently acquired a Penn Line F7 dual truck drive. I received it in pieces as the previous owner tried to make it run. After fixing it, I went to assemble it and can't figure out how. I may be missing parts, for sure the drive shaft between the trucks, which could add to the difficulty. Does anyone have pics of this unit without the shell or whatever that they would post? Or otherwise give me a clue? Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 21777	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question

Attachments : Penn Line F7 a.jpg penn line 2.jpg This next one shows the complete installation.  The other photo shows the dummy chassis.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ken Starcher Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 2:28 AM To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line F7 question     I have recently acquired a Penn Line F7 dual truck drive. I received it in pieces as the previous owner tried to make it run. After fixing it, I went to assemble it and can't figure out how. I may be missing parts, for sure the drive shaft between the trucks, which could add to the difficulty. Does anyone have pics of this unit without the shell or whatever that they would post? Or otherwise give me a clue? Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 21778	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question [1 Attachment]

On 1/5/2014 9:45 AM, Chuck Higdon wrote: Hello Ken, See if the attached photos help.  In this one the rear truck is installed in the body, the fuel tank is on the table and the front truck and drive shaft ready to be installed.  Then the fuel tank would be installed. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   Ken and Chuck; Chuck, what's the overall length of the white nylon connecting shaft? Ken, depending on Chuck's answer I very well may have one.  Do you have the two universal sockets sockets on the trucks?  If not, you could just connect them with a length of rubber tubing. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21779	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question

Chuck and Don, thanks for you help, but considering what's missing and what's broken, like the steps needed to hold this thing together, this may be a shelf-sitter. I have a war-bonnet shell that would fit, but I wanted a Pennsy. I may go ahead and put that together just so the parts don't get beat around. I noticed that my local Whistle Stop has a "universal" drive shaft kit that I may pick up. Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 1/5/14, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line F7 question To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 5, 2014, 12:01 PM   On 1/5/2014 9:45 AM, Chuck Higdon wrote: Hello Ken, See if the attached photos help.  In this one the rear truck is installed in the body, the fuel tank is on the table and the front truck and drive shaft ready to be installed.  Then the fuel tank would be installed. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   Ken and Chuck; Chuck, what's the overall length of the white nylon connecting shaft? Ken, depending on Chuck's answer I very well may have one.  Do you have the two universal sockets sockets on the trucks?  If not, you could just connect them with a length of rubber tubing. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21780	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question

Don,   The overall length is 1.311”.   Ken,   An Athearn shell should work if the steps on your Penn Line are broken, like mine are.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Ken Starcher Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 1:38 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line F7 question     Chuck and Don, thanks for you help, but considering what's missing and what's broken, like the steps needed to hold this thing together, this may be a shelf-sitter. I have a war-bonnet shell that would fit, but I wanted a Pennsy. I may go ahead and put that together just so the parts don't get beat around. I noticed that my local Whistle Stop has a "universal" drive shaft kit that I may pick up. Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 1/5/14, Don Dellmann < don.dellmann@... > wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line F7 question To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 5, 2014, 12:01 PM   On 1/5/2014 9:45 AM, Chuck Higdon wrote: Hello Ken, See if the attached photos help.  In this one the rear truck is installed in the body, the fuel tank is on the table and the front truck and drive shaft ready to be installed.  Then the fuel tank would be installed. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   Ken and Chuck; Chuck, what's the overall length of the white nylon connecting shaft? Ken, depending on Chuck's answer I very well may have one.  Do you have the two universal sockets sockets on the trucks?  If not, you could just connect them with a length of rubber tubing. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21781	From: corlissbs	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question

I have always wondered if Penn Line made their own F7 body shells or had them made by Athearn?  Does anyone know?   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21782	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question

On 1/5/2014 3:01 PM, corlissbs@... wrote: I have always wondered if Penn Line made their own F7 body shells or had them made by Athearn?  Does anyone know?   Brad Smith Franklin, WI Prior to about 1962 they sure looked it, although the windshield openings were cut out larger and with sharper squarer corners. FWIW I have some Penn Line boxcars (well at least one) that obviously came from the exact same die as Mantua plastic box cars of that era.  Remember the Mantua "F-9" was an F-7 After about 1962 they did change, if you look at Ken's photo you see the much  shallower steps that held the truckj mounts in place (a design change that in my humble opinion did as much to bring Penn Line as did the slot car craze.) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21783	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Today's swap meet finds

Attachments : Yank-Horizontal-Oil-Storage-Tank-Model-107-1080.jpg Pullman-Manhattan-Side-2-1080.jpg Pullman-Detroit-Side-2-1080.jpg Today I went to a train show in Brooklawn, N.J., and I came home with several older kits and pieces of rolling stock. Among the finds were two wood and metal passenger cars (both Pullmans), made, I think, by two different manufacturers, as the "Manhattan" has rivet detail on its sides, and the "Detroit" is lacking such detail. I don't know the maker of either one, though, as I found them loose. They're in good shape overall, but I need to replace the trucks (or at least the wheelsets) and, on one, the diaphragms. I also found a nifty little kit (partially built) by Yank Model Research for a horizontal oil storage tank (their kit No. 107). I've attached a few photos; for more, or for larger versions of these, you can check out my set on Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/harrygbutler/sets/72157639458498105/ Harry Butler

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 21784	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds [3 Attachments]

Attachments : 34.jpg On 1/5/2014 7:30 PM, hbutlerlists@... wrote: Today I went to a train show in Brooklawn, N.J., and I came home with several older kits and pieces of rolling stock. Among the finds were two wood and metal passenger cars (both Pullmans), made, I think, by two different manufacturers, as the "Manhattan" has rivet detail on its sides, and the "Detroit" is lacking such detail. I don't know the maker of either one, though, as I found them loose. They're in good shape overall, but I need to replace the trucks (or at least the wheelsets) and, on one, the diaphragms. I also found a nifty little kit (partially built) by Yank Model Research for a horizontal oil storage tank (their kit No. 107). I've attached a few photos; for more, or for larger versions of these, you can check out my set on Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/harrygbutler/sets/72157639458498105/ Harry Butler Are the sides folded under the floor (see attachment)? If they are, what you have are early Walthers cars, what I call phase 1 (no rivets), which includes the prewar "Crestline" models and Phase 2 (rivet detail), ca. 1950 to 1959 when they were replaced by the "Silver Anniversary" line. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 21785	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds [3 Attachments]

Thanks, Don. The sides on the "Detroit" are indeed folded under the floor, so I guess it is an early Walthers (perhaps Crestline) car. The "Manhattan" doesn't, but I did notice that the trucks are Varney trucks. On closer examination, I think it is probably a Varney PA-300 Pullman with embossed sides, as I could see the double sides with a close-up view of the underside.  Harry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21786	From: Garry Spear	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds [3 Attachments]

At first pass, both appear to be 12-1 Pullman, by Walthers.  The car with out rivets is from a pre-war II kit, the directions came with a card board strip for rivets; the car sides are folded under the floor.  The car with rivets can be either Walthers or JC Silversides; with folded sides it is Walthers.  With straight sides it can be Walthers or JC Silversides,  The cast ends are different.  There were other makers of 12-1 Pullmans but I think all those sides were card board laminated to foil. Detail pictures of the end and under body will confirm the manufacturer. Garry Spear On Sun, Jan 5, 2014 at 8:30 PM, <hbutlerlists@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from hbutlerlists@... included below] Today I went to a train show in Brooklawn, N.J., and I came home with several older kits and pieces of rolling stock. Among the finds were two wood and metal passenger cars (both Pullmans), made, I think, by two different manufacturers, as the "Manhattan" has rivet detail on its sides, and the "Detroit" is lacking such detail. I don't know the maker of either one, though, as I found them loose. They're in good shape overall, but I need to replace the trucks (or at least the wheelsets) and, on one, the diaphragms. I also found a nifty little kit (partially built) by Yank Model Research for a horizontal oil storage tank (their kit No. 107). I've attached a few photos; for more, or for larger versions of these, you can check out my set on Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/harrygbutler/sets/72157639458498105/ Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21787	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/5/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds

On 1/5/2014 8:36 PM, hbutlerlists@... wrote: Thanks, Don. The sides on the "Detroit" are indeed folded under the floor, so I guess it is an early Walthers (perhaps Crestline) car. The "Manhattan" doesn't, but I did notice that the trucks are Varney trucks. On closer examination, I think it is probably a Varney PA-300 Pullman with embossed sides, as I could see the double sides with a close-up view of the underside.  Harry I think you've got it, since I also notice it is a 14 section while the Walthers is a 12 section.  JC also had card kits, but theirs was also a 12 section.  There are some very very early Walthers card kits, but I've never seen one. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21788	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 1/6/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question

Watch out on the ‘universal drive shaft set’. Most times the coupling ends are smaller than the Penn Line’s.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21789	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/6/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line F7 question

Thanks, I'll check that. Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 -------------------------------------------- On Mon, 1/6/14, Jim Waterman <Watermaj@...> wrote: Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line F7 question To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 6, 2014, 7:19 AM   Watch out on the ‘universal drive shaft set’. Most times the coupling ends are smaller than the Penn Line’s.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21790	From: jake_iv	Date: 1/6/2014
Subject: N&W PA units

Hi friends,  I need some help.  When N&W acquired WAB they got 3 PAs, one running, one wrecked and one WAB had bought for parts.  Does anyone have a pic of any of these units in N&W livery?  I'd like to do up a fantasy train of a PA and 4 smooth sides but don't have a clue how N&W would have painte the PAs. Jake Bechtel - Gadsden, AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21791	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 1/6/2014
Subject: Re: Today's swap meet finds

Great, thanks, Don. And thanks for the additional info, Garry. I'm looking forward to getting these two tuned up and back on the rails.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21792	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units

I painted an F3 all black with Dulux Gold (yellow) lettering back in the '60s.  Then when N&W took over Wabash and Virginian they painted most of the locomotives black with Dulux Gold lettering.  Since it is a fantasy train for your railroad, either all black or passenger red (actually a reddish maroon in diesel days) with a black frame, pilot and trucks would fall within their painting practice for diesels...  They had red GP9s for passenger service.  N&W also changed passenger colors to blue during the GP9 era and some diesels were blue with yellow lettering and black frames plus they had blue dome cars running into Norfolk. Happy railroading... Don Staton in Va. ------------------------------------------------------------- On 1/6/2014 8:10 PM, jhbivusa@... wrote:   Hi friends,  I need some help.  When N&W acquired WAB they got 3 PAs, one running, one wrecked and one WAB had bought for parts.  Does anyone have a pic of any of these units in N&W livery?  I'd like to do up a fantasy train of a PA and 4 smooth sides but don't have a clue how N&W would have painte the PAs. Jake Bechtel - Gadsden, AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21793	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units

Thank you for the response Don. I was leaning toward the maroon paint scheme to place it at the head of some smooth sides. Jake Bechtel On 1/7/14, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote: > /I painted an F3 all black with Dulux Gold (yellow) lettering back in > the '60s. Then when N&W took over Wabash and Virginian they painted > most of the locomotives black with Dulux Gold lettering/. /Since it is a > fantasy train//for your railroad, either all black or passenger red > (actually a reddish maroon in diesel days) with //a black frame, pilot > and trucks//would fall within their painting practice for diesels... > They had red GP9s for passenger service/. /N&W also changed passenger > colors to blue during the GP9 era and some diesels were blue with yellow > lettering and black frames plus they had blue dome cars running into > Norfolk./ > > /Happy railroading...// > //Don Staton in Va./ > ------------------------------------------------------------- > On 1/6/2014 8:10 PM, jhbivusa@... wrote: >> >> Hi friends, I need some help. When N&W acquired WAB they got 3 PAs, >> one running, one wrecked and one WAB had bought for parts. Does >> anyone have a pic of any of these units in N&W livery? I'd like to do >> up a fantasy train of a PA and 4 smooth sides but don't have a clue >> how N&W would have painte the PAs. >> >> Jake Bechtel - Gadsden, AL >> >> > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21794	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units

The smooth sides had a dark roof, prototype originally painted brown, but usually appeared black.  Most models have a black roof so you might want to paint the PA roof the same color as the car roofs.  You could also use a gold stripe on the top and bottom of the sides of the same color as the lettering which was the usual decoration of the smooth sides.  Are you aware that some of the sleepers were actually fluted (corrugated) sides and roof with smooth window strips and letter boards? Don Staton in Va. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 1/7/2014 1:21 PM, Jacob Bechtel wrote:   Thank you for the response Don. I was leaning toward the maroon paint scheme to place it at the head of some smooth sides. Jake Bechtel On 1/7/14, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote: > /I painted an F3 all black with Dulux Gold (yellow) lettering back in > the '60s. Then when N&W took over Wabash and Virginian they painted > most of the locomotives black with Dulux Gold lettering/. /Since it is a > fantasy train//for your railroad, either all black or passenger red > (actually a reddish maroon in diesel days) with //a black frame, pilot > and trucks//would fall within their painting practice for diesels... > They had red GP9s for passenger service/. /N&W also changed passenger > colors to blue during the GP9 era and some diesels were blue with yellow > lettering and black frames plus they had blue dome cars running into > Norfolk./ > > /Happy railroading...// > //Don Staton in Va./ > ---------------------------------------------------------- > On 1/6/2014 8:10 PM, jhbivusa@... wrote: >> >> Hi friends, I need some help. When N&W acquired WAB they got 3 PAs, >> one running, one wrecked and one WAB had bought for parts. Does >> anyone have a pic of any of these units in N&W livery? I'd like to do >> up a fantasy train of a PA and 4 smooth sides but don't have a clue >> how N&W would have painte the PAs. >> >> Jake Bechtel - Gadsden, AL >> >> > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21795	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units

Thank you again Don. I have 4 Riverossi cars on hand that I plan to repaint the roofs on using burnt umber. NWHS archives has indicated only too c learly that actual colors varied greatly and that several sources were used for paint. I did find a couple of pics of the WAB units so placement of number boards etc. has been determined. I haven't found anything to indicate that these units were ever repainted in N&W colors or ever actually operated as N&W power, so these have to be a "Fantasy" project. Interestingly, WAB records indicate that the units were PA-1s but the N&W roster shows them as PA-2s - thankfully the PA 1 and 2 had the same bodies. This is projected to be just 4 cars long, RPO, coach, dome and obs with the PA at the head. I have been fasinated by the PA image ever since I saw the original Freedom Train as it moved through PA in 1947. I still think it is one of the best looking passenger locos ever. Jake Bechtel On 1/7/14, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote: > /The smooth sides had a dark roof, prototype originally painted brown, > but usually appeared black. Most models have a black roof so you might > want to paint the PA roof the same color as the car roofs. You could > also use a gold stripe on the top and bottom of the sides of the same > color as the lettering which was the usual decoration of the smooth > sides./ /Are you aware that some of the sleepers were actually fluted > (corrugated) sides and roof with smooth window strips and letter boards? > > Don Staton in Va. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > / > On 1/7/2014 1:21 PM, Jacob Bechtel wrote: >> >> Thank you for the response Don. I was leaning toward the maroon paint >> scheme to place it at the head of some smooth sides. >> Jake Bechtel >> >> On 1/7/14, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote: >> > /I painted an F3 all black with Dulux Gold (yellow) lettering back in >> > the '60s. Then when N&W took over Wabash and Virginian they painted >> > most of the locomotives black with Dulux Gold lettering/. /Since it is >> > a >> > fantasy train//for your railroad, either all black or passenger red >> > (actually a reddish maroon in diesel days) with //a black frame, pilot >> > and trucks//would fall within their painting practice for diesels... >> > They had red GP9s for passenger service/. /N&W also changed passenger >> > colors to blue during the GP9 era and some diesels were blue with >> > yellow >> > lettering and black frames plus they had blue dome cars running into >> > Norfolk./ >> > >> > /Happy railroading...// >> > //Don Staton in Va./ >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- >> > On 1/6/2014 8:10 PM, jhbivusa@... wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi friends, I need some help. When N&W acquired WAB they got 3 PAs, >> >> one running, one wrecked and one WAB had bought for parts. Does >> >> anyone have a pic of any of these units in N&W livery? I'd like to do >> >> up a fantasy train of a PA and 4 smooth sides but don't have a clue >> >> how N&W would have painte the PAs. >> >> >> >> Jake Bechtel - Gadsden, AL >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21796	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/7/2014
Subject: Re: N&W PA units

I agree on the look and beauty of PAs for the same reason...  I cut out the Freedom Train from cereal boxes and kept them for a long time. Happy railroading... Don Staton in VA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 1/7/2014 8:30 PM, Jacob Bechtel wrote:   Thank you again Don. I have 4 Riverossi cars on hand that I plan to repaint the roofs on using burnt umber. NWHS archives has indicated only too c learly that actual colors varied greatly and that several sources were used for paint. I did find a couple of pics of the WAB units so placement of number boards etc. has been determined. I haven't found anything to indicate that these units were ever repainted in N&W colors or ever actually operated as N&W power, so these have to be a "Fantasy" project. Interestingly, WAB records indicate that the units were PA-1s but the N&W roster shows them as PA-2s - thankfully the PA 1 and 2 had the same bodies. This is projected to be just 4 cars long, RPO, coach, dome and obs with the PA at the head. I have been fasinated by the PA image ever since I saw the original Freedom Train as it moved through PA in 1947. I still think it is one of the best looking passenger locos ever. Jake Bechtel On 1/7/14, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote: > /The smooth sides had a dark roof, prototype originally painted brown, > but usually appeared black. Most models have a black roof so you might > want to paint the PA roof the same color as the car roofs. You could > also use a gold stripe on the top and bottom of the sides of the same > color as the lettering which was the usual decoration of the smooth > sides./ /Are you aware that some of the sleepers were actually fluted > (corrugated) sides and roof with smooth window strips and letter boards? > > Don Staton in Va. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > / > On 1/7/2014 1:21 PM, Jacob Bechtel wrote: >> >> Thank you for the response Don. I was leaning toward the maroon paint >> scheme to place it at the head of some smooth sides. >> Jake Bechtel >> >> On 1/7/14, Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> wrote: >> > /I painted an F3 all black with Dulux Gold (yellow) lettering back in >> > the '60s. Then when N&W took over Wabash and Virginian they painted >> > most of the locomotives black with Dulux Gold lettering/. /Since it is >> > a >> > fantasy train//for your railroad, either all black or passenger red >> > (actually a reddish maroon in diesel days) with //a black frame, pilot >> > and trucks//would fall within their painting practice for diesels... >> > They had red GP9s for passenger service/. /N&W also changed passenger >> > colors to blue during the GP9 era and some diesels were blue with >> > yellow >> > lettering and black frames plus they had blue dome cars running into >> > Norfolk./ >> > >> > /Happy railroading...// >> > //Don Staton in Va./ >> > ---------------------------------------------------------- >> > On 1/6/2014 8:10 PM, jhbivusa@... wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi friends, I need some help. When N&W acquired WAB they got 3 PAs, >> >> one running, one wrecked and one WAB had bought for parts. Does >> >> anyone have a pic of any of these units in N&W livery? I'd like to do >> >> up a fantasy train of a PA and 4 smooth sides but don't have a clue >> >> how N&W would have painte the PAs. >> >> >> >> Jake Bechtel - Gadsden, AL >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21797	From: Bill Porter	Date: 1/10/2014
Subject: H K Porter Locomotives

Hi Folks and Happy New Year, I have a modest collection of H K Porter (later Davenport) diesel switchers in HO scale. I like these little guys. Back in the late 1950's, my friends and I made a race track for the Athearn Hustlers. They did hustle! The course was oval and about an HO half-mile. It had three tracks. There was provision at the ends to gently catch the ones that left the track. It was a hoot. Several manufacturers have made HO models of those old Porters. I have a page on my personal website (no selling) with some information and some photos. Visit if it might float your boat: http://wpporter.worthygems.com/HKPorterLocos.php Bill -- Bill Porter The Acreage - Florida

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21798	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 1/11/2014
Subject: Re: H K Porter Locomotives

I too was a fan of these when a kid. We used to put bushings (kind of like little pulleys on the main shaft to ‘gear up’ the Hustlers. Man did they fly. With low center of gravity, they were hard to through off the track, especially with the wider radii we had on our HO layout. But we would once in a while, then have to fish the engine from behind a cabinet or shelf somewhere.   Did something similar with HO race cars. With some, you could replace the wheels with flanged wheels, then add contacts and run on the tracks.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21799	From: corlissbs	Date: 1/11/2014
Subject: Re: H K Porter Locomotives

I, too love the Athearn Hustler and have a collection of the different colors and respective road numbers.  I believe that Irv didn't use any particular prototype when he designed the Hustler.  It has two EMD stacks and a 36 inch fan on the top of the hood, neither of which is on any critter that I have ever seen.  That is a lot of stack for a Buda or Cat engine that would power it.  And there is no way for the crew to get to the cab door in the center or the rear wall, without climbing on the coupler!  That always bothered me.  It is just a "cute" starter engine.  The others followed Athearn's design, with the GP9 stacks and the fan.  Mantua and Penn Line were the only makers who actually followed a prototype in their accurate, center cab Plymouth and later their Davenport (Oversized, though) and for Penn Line, the beautiful Whitcomb in both die cast and plastic versions.   What you are missing is the Japanese brass version of the Hustler, that actually has handrails, but still a hard-to-get-into rear cab door.  At least it has front cab doors, so one could walk along the running board with nothing to hang on to, though, along the length of the hood.  It still had the fan and GP9 stacks!  Guess what, a fan is not needed with the radiator in front of the hood!  The letters OPICO are where the word HUSTLER is on the Athearn loco.  It sports working front and rear headlights, a vertical motor, geared to the rear axle, with a spring drive from the rear axle to the front axle.  There is a GEM-OLYMPIA sticker on the bottom.  I have the model and will send you a pic or two of it, if you want.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21800	From: Bill Porter	Date: 1/11/2014
Subject: Re: H K Porter Locomotives

Thanks Brad, Yes, I would be delighted to have your photos and to use your commentary - if that is OK with you. If anyone else has photos or information to add, please send it direct to me at: wpporter@... if it is OK to post on the pages I have started. Or post your stuff here in a Group album if you prefer. My hope is to have the name of the model owner as well as of the photographer to include with any photos. I would be happy to start an album to which any member can add photos if there is any interest. Right now, I am working on an additional page with examples from my collection. I also have some pix I swiped from eBay listings. I feel I cannot publish those on my pages. So, getting photos of Hustlers, Husky, H K Porter, Davenport or Plymouth small diesel models from the owners of the photos would be a plus. Bill PS the current page is at: http://wpporter.worthygems.com/HKPorterLocos.php Bill Porter The Acreage - Florida On 1/11/2014 1:59 PM, corlissbs@... wrote:   I, too love the Athearn Hustler and have a collection of the different colors and respective road numbers.  I believe that Irv didn't use any particular prototype when he designed the Hustler.  It has two EMD stacks and a 36 inch fan on the top of the hood, neither of which is on any critter that I have ever seen.  That is a lot of stack for a Buda or Cat engine that would power it.  And there is no way for the crew to get to the cab door in the center or the rear wall, without climbing on the coupler!  That always bothered me.  It is just a "cute" starter engine.  The others followed Athearn's design, with the GP9 stacks and the fan.  Mantua and Penn Line were the only makers who actually followed a prototype in their accurate, center cab Plymouth and later their Davenport (Oversized, though) and for Penn Line, the beautiful Whitcomb in both die cast and plastic versions.   What you are missing is the Japanese brass version of the Hustler, that actually has handrails, but still a hard-to-get-into rear cab door.  At least it has front cab doors, so one could walk along the running board with nothing to hang on to, though, along the length of the hood.  It still had the fan and GP9 stacks!  Guess what, a fan is not needed with the radiator in front of the hood!  The letters OPICO are where the word HUSTLER is on the Athearn loco.  It sports working front and rear headlights, a vertical motor, geared to the rear axle, with a spring drive from the rear axle to the front axle.  There is a GEM-OLYMPIA sticker on the bottom.  I have the model and will send you a pic or two of it, if you want.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21801	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/14/2014
Subject: REQUEST

Does anyone have the assembly diagram for AHM C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6?  I need both a diagram and the part numbers for the pilot and front porch platform assembly including handrails...  Or I need the assembly itself if anyone has one. Thanks for any assistance... Grace and Peace... Don Staton in VA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21802	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/14/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST

Attachments : Hello Don, I presume you are asking for a brass model? Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald R. Staton Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] REQUEST     Does anyone have the assembly diagram for AHM C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6?  I need both a diagram and the part numbers for the pilot and front porch platform assembly including handrails...  Or I need the assembly itself if anyone has one. Thanks for any assistance... Grace and Peace... Don Staton in VA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21803	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/14/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST

Brass would be great.  I need it for an Akane C&O H8 2-6-6-6... But a plastic assembly from AHM would do. Don Staton in VA. ================================================================================ On 1/14/2014 9:39 PM, Denis Long wrote:   Hello Don, I presume you are asking for a brass model? Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald R. Staton Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] REQUEST     Does anyone have the assembly diagram for AHM C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6?  I need both a diagram and the part numbers for the pilot and front porch platform assembly including handrails...  Or I need the assembly itself if anyone has one. Thanks for any assistance... Grace and Peace... Don Staton in VA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21804	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/14/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST

I need an AHM diagram to get the part numbers.  I need the pilot and front porch assembly for a brass Akane H8 2-6-6-6 so I can use either the plastic AHM assembly of a Brass assembly.  Either one would be usable for me. Don Staton in VA ============================================================================== On 1/14/2014 9:39 PM, Denis Long wrote:   Hello Don, I presume you are asking for a brass model? Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donald R. Staton Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 7:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] REQUEST     Does anyone have the assembly diagram for AHM C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6?  I need both a diagram and the part numbers for the pilot and front porch platform assembly including handrails...  Or I need the assembly itself if anyone has one. Thanks for any assistance... Grace and Peace... Don Staton in VA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21805	From: greenbrier614	Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST

Don, I uploaded my manual to HOSeeker a few years back. The pilot assy. is listed as L70CC5454. They're pricey when they turn up on eBay. http://www.hoseeker.org/ahminstructions.html The Alleghenies were made by Rivarossi long after AHM, btw. Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <chpln1@...> wrote: Does anyone have the assembly diagram for AHM C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6?  I need both a diagram and the part numbers for the pilot and front porch platform assembly including handrails...  Or I need the assembly itself if anyone has one. Thanks for any assistance... Grace and Peace... Don Staton in VA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21806	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 1/15/2014
Subject: Re: REQUEST

Thank you Nelson.  I would expect that pilot assembly to be expensive. Happy railroading... Grace and Peace... Don in VA ===================================================== On 1/15/2014 8:23 PM, greenbrier614@... wrote:   Don, I uploaded my manual to HOSeeker a few years back. The pilot assy. is listed as L70CC5454. They're pricey when they turn up on eBay. http://www.hoseeker.org/ahminstructions.html The Alleghenies were made by Rivarossi long after AHM, btw. Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <chpln1@...> wrote: Does anyone have the assembly diagram for AHM C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6?  I need both a diagram and the part numbers for the pilot and front porch platform assembly including handrails...  Or I need the assembly itself if anyone has one. Thanks for any assistance... Grace and Peace... Don Staton in VA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21807	From: Carlos	Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Train cars and accessories

I recently came across a significant amount of HO train stuff Among the cars is an c-2-a0-8-0 switcher in the box Also many mantua train cars un-opened Athearn, Tyco and roundhouse train cars and engines Many buildings and little people in un-opened boxes Looking to sell most of the collection Also many used cars inboxes and out of box Let me know if interested Thanks, Carlos

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21808	From: Carlos	Date: 1/21/2014
Subject: Train cars and accessories

I recently came across a significant amount of HO train stuff Among the cars is an c-2-a0-8-0 switcher in the box Also many mantua train cars un-opened Athearn, Tyco and roundhouse train cars and engines Many buildings and little people in un-opened boxes Looking to sell most of the collection Also many used cars inboxes and out of box Let me know if interested Thanks, Carlos

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21809	From: earlyrail	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Springfield Show

Attended today/ Saw a Knapp mountain? Cast brass FTA and FTB shells(No markings, solid port holes, two mounting tabs) Lindsey FA's still in the original box Many other very old locos and cars All from one estate If I remember correctly these were in the Young Building I'll be going back in the morning but have little interest myself. Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21810	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks

Hi all, I am in need of a pair of 8 wheel tender trucks like used on the PA 4-4-4-4's. If any one has a pair and would like to part with them, please contact me off line at lehighvalley at twlakes dot com. Joel Holmes

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21811	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks

Attachments : Joel, See if Athearn makes Buckeye trucks.  Also, check Greenway and Bowser, filtering your search with T-1 parts. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joel Holmes Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:22 PM To: Vintage HO Group Subject: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks     Hi all, I am in need of a pair of 8 wheel tender trucks like used on the PA 4-4-4-4's. If any one has a pair and would like to part with them, please contact me off line at lehighvalley at twlakes dot com. Joel Holmes

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21812	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks

Hi Denis, I cannot use Buckeye trucks as they would not be prototypical. I will look at Bowser. I do not like Bowser because of their very high shipping costs. However, I just may get one anyhow. Joel > Joel, > > See if Athearn makes Buckeye trucks. Also, check Greenway and Bowser, > filtering your search with T-1 parts. > > Denis > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf > Of Joel Holmes > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:22 PM > To: Vintage HO Group > Subject: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks > > > > > > Hi all, > > I am in need of a pair of 8 wheel tender trucks like used on the PA > 4-4-4-4's. If any one has a pair and would like to part with them, please > contact me off line at lehighvalley at twlakes dot com. > > Joel Holmes > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21813	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/25/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks

Attachments : You’re right Joel, I was thinking of PRR’s Long Haul tender. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joel Holmes Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:34 PM To: Vintage HO Group Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks     Hi Denis, I cannot use Buckeye trucks as they would not be prototypical. I will look at Bowser. I do not like Bowser because of their very high shipping costs. However, I just may get one anyhow. Joel > Joel, > > See if Athearn makes Buckeye trucks. Also, check Greenway and Bowser, > filtering your search with T-1 parts. > > Denis > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf > Of Joel Holmes > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:22 PM > To: Vintage HO Group > Subject: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks > > > > > > Hi all, > > I am in need of a pair of 8 wheel tender trucks like used on the PA > 4-4-4-4's. If any one has a pair and would like to part with them, please > contact me off line at lehighvalley at twlakes dot com. > > Joel Holmes > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21814	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks

Hi Denis, I did find a 8 wheel tender truck on Bowser but have no idea if it is a Buckeye or the standard 8 wheel truck. Joel > You're right Joel, I was thinking of PRR's Long Haul tender. > > Denis > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf > Of Joel Holmes > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:34 PM > To: Vintage HO Group > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks > > > > > > Hi Denis, > > I cannot use Buckeye trucks as they would not be prototypical. I will > look at Bowser. I do not like Bowser because of their very high shipping > costs. However, I just may get one anyhow. > > Joel > >> Joel, >> >> See if Athearn makes Buckeye trucks. Also, check Greenway and Bowser, >> filtering your search with T-1 parts. >> >> Denis >> >> >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >> Behalf >> Of Joel Holmes >> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:22 PM >> To: Vintage HO Group >> Subject: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I am in need of a pair of 8 wheel tender trucks like used on the PA >> 4-4-4-4's. If any one has a pair and would like to part with them, >> please >> contact me off line at lehighvalley at twlakes dot com. >> >> Joel Holmes >> >> >> >> > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21815	From: Denis Long	Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks

Attachments : Joel, I think the question is, did Bowser have an eight wheel truck, that wasn’t for the T-1 tender.  I agree that B’s shipping is over the top, especially for a 1/10 ounce detail part. I will check on another forum for the truck, and check on the internet. I’ll get back to you.   I’m getting back.  Bowser’s 7006 PRR 8 wheel (pair) are the T-1 trucks.  And also the cheapest I see. See them here:  http://www.modelrailroader.net/ho_tendertrucks.php Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joel Holmes Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:45 AM To: Vintage HO Group Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks     Hi Denis, I did find a 8 wheel tender truck on Bowser but have no idea if it is a Buckeye or the standard 8 wheel truck. Joel > You're right Joel, I was thinking of PRR's Long Haul tender. > > Denis > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf > Of Joel Holmes > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:34 PM > To: Vintage HO Group > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks > > > > > > Hi Denis, > > I cannot use Buckeye trucks as they would not be prototypical. I will > look at Bowser. I do not like Bowser because of their very high shipping > costs. However, I just may get one anyhow. > > Joel > >> Joel, >> >> See if Athearn makes Buckeye trucks. Also, check Greenway and Bowser, >> filtering your search with T-1 parts. >> >> Denis >> >> >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >> Behalf >> Of Joel Holmes >> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:22 PM >> To: Vintage HO Group >> Subject: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> I am in need of a pair of 8 wheel tender trucks like used on the PA >> 4-4-4-4's. If any one has a pair and would like to part with them, >> please >> contact me off line at lehighvalley at twlakes dot com. >> >> Joel Holmes >> >> >> >> > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21816	From: Loren Martell	Date: 1/26/2014
Subject: Prices for RR books reduced

Creating Micro Layouts:  Model Railroading in Extremely Small Spaces, by Carl Arendt.  Used, Very Good Condition.  $50 + postage   52 Micro Layouts You Can Build:  Model Railroading in Extremely Small Spaces, signed by Carl Arendt.  Used, Very Good Condition - but cover spine is separating at bottom.  $40 + postage   Buy both for $80 + postage     The Union Pacific Railroad:  A Trip across the North American Continent from Omaha to Ogden, Nelson’s Pictorial Guide Book.  Published 1871 by T Nelson and Sons, New York.  Binding is loose, but all pages intact and attached.  Book is in acceptable condition.  $80 + postage.   Railway Reflections ( A Historical Review of Utah Railroads ) by Stephen L. Carr with Illustrations by Gilbert Bennett, signed by Mr. Bennett.  Brand new book. $30 + postage.     The track going back:  A Century o f Transcontinental Railroading 1869 – 1969.  Anon Carter Museum.  New, still in shrink wrap. This is the brown cover version. 2 copies.  $15 + postage, each.   The track going back:  A Century o f Transcontinental Railroading 1869 – 1969.  Anon Carter Museum.  Used. This is the grey cover version. $10 + postage, each.     Southern Pacific Company Steam locomotive Compendium, by Diebert & Strapac.  Copyright 1987.  Book is in like new condition – I do not believe it has ever been read.  Minor dust jacket scuffing.  $120 + postage.   Southern Pacific Company, Diagrams of Locomotives and Tenders, Vol. 1, edited by Richard K. Wright.  Book is in like new condition.  No dust jacket as issued.  $125 + postage.     Trains & Technology:  The American Railroad, Vol 1, 2 3 & 4, by Anthony J Bianculli.  Publisher - University of Delaware.  Hard bound books in like new condition.  $250 + postage.     Timetable Trains 1920s – 1950’s, Robert J Wayner.  New in shrink wrap.  $20 + postage     Locomotive Quarterly:   Locomotive Quarterly, Spring 1978:  Vol. II, #3:  $5.00 + postage Locomotive Quarterly, Spring 1981:  Vol. IV, #3:  $5.00 + postage Locomotive Quarterly, Winter 1986:  Vol. XII, #2:  $5.00 + postage Locomotive Quarterly, Winter 1989:  Vol. XIII, #2:  $5.00 + postage Locomotive Quarterly, Winter 1990:  Vol. XIV, #2:  $7.50 + postage Locomotive Quarterly, Winter 1996:  Vol. XX, #2:  $7.50 + postage Locomotive Quarterly, Fall 2003:  Vol. XXVII, #1:  $7.50 + postage   Table of contents on request.  Buy all 7 for $40 + postage     Railroad History:   Railroad History # 130, Spring 1974:  $4 + postage Railroad History # 131, Autumn 1974 ( Erie ):  $5 + postage Railroad History # 132, Autumn 1974 ( Erie ):  $2.50 + postage ( binding loose ) Railroad History # 132, Spring 1975:  $5 + postage Railroad History # 133, Fall 1975 ( Wabash ):  $5 + postage Railroad History # 135, Fall 1976:  $4 + postage Railroad History # 137, Autumn 1977:  $4 + postage Railroad History # 138, Spring 1978:  $4 + postage Railroad History # 139, Autumn 1978:  $4 + postage Railroad History # 140, Spring 1979 ( Illinois Central ):  $5 + postage Railroad History # 141, Autumn 1979:  $4 + postage   Table of contents on request.  Buy all 11 for $40 + postage     Portrait of a Silver Lady, by MacGregor / Benson, Used in good condition with dust jacket & cardboard slipcase.  $75 + postage.     Greenberg’s Guide to Varney Trains, John David Spanagel.  Like New. Small bump to top edge.  No dust jacket as issued.  $60 + postage.     Payment by PayPal or USPS Money Order ( Next business day shipping ) or Bank Check ( 5 business day hold before shipping.   Pictures available on request. Please contact me off list.   As always, I will entertain any reasonable offer. Loren Martell Beaverton, OR 97006 503-810-9018

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21817	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks

Hi Dennis, That is the one. I could not bring up a picture of the truck when I went to Bowser. I think they may have more than one web address and I must have gotten the incorrect site. I will order one. That will give me the two that I need. Thank you for your help. Joel > Joel, > > I think the question is, did Bowser have an eight wheel truck, that wasn't > for the T-1 tender. I agree that B's shipping is over the top, especially > for a 1/10 ounce detail part. > > I will check on another forum for the truck, and check on the internet. > > I'll get back to you. > > > > I'm getting back. Bowser's 7006 PRR 8 wheel (pair) are the T-1 trucks. > And > also the cheapest I see. > > See them here: http://www.modelrailroader.net/ho_tendertrucks.php > > Denis > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf > Of Joel Holmes > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:45 AM > To: Vintage HO Group > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks > > > > > > Hi Denis, > > I did find a 8 wheel tender truck on Bowser but have no idea if it is a > Buckeye or the standard 8 wheel truck. > > Joel > >> You're right Joel, I was thinking of PRR's Long Haul tender. >> >> Denis >> >> >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >> Behalf >> Of Joel Holmes >> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:34 PM >> To: Vintage HO Group >> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Denis, >> >> I cannot use Buckeye trucks as they would not be prototypical. I will >> look at Bowser. I do not like Bowser because of their very high shipping >> costs. However, I just may get one anyhow. >> >> Joel >> >>> Joel, >>> >>> See if Athearn makes Buckeye trucks. Also, check Greenway and Bowser, >>> filtering your search with T-1 parts. >>> >>> Denis >>> >>> >>> >>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Joel Holmes >>> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:22 PM >>> To: Vintage HO Group >>> Subject: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I am in need of a pair of 8 wheel tender trucks like used on the PA >>> 4-4-4-4's. If any one has a pair and would like to part with them, >>> please >>> contact me off line at lehighvalley at twlakes dot com. >>> >>> Joel Holmes >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21818	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks

Joel, I have ONE truck ! Not a pair but just one. I had to replace one truck several years ago I bought a pair but only used one. If you only need one you are welcome to this one for 1/2 the cost of a pair plus the postage to you. The trucks come in a foam filled plastic box. Just tell me how you want it shipped and I can shoot you the cost. Jake Bechtel Gadsden, AL On 1/27/14, Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...> wrote: > Hi Dennis, > > That is the one. I could not bring up a picture of the truck when I went > to Bowser. I think they may have more than one web address and I must > have gotten the incorrect site. I will order one. That will give me the > two that I need. Thank you for your help. > > Joel > >> Joel, >> >> I think the question is, did Bowser have an eight wheel truck, that >> wasn't >> for the T-1 tender. I agree that B's shipping is over the top, >> especially >> for a 1/10 ounce detail part. >> >> I will check on another forum for the truck, and check on the internet. >> >> I'll get back to you. >> >> >> >> I'm getting back. Bowser's 7006 PRR 8 wheel (pair) are the T-1 trucks. >> And >> also the cheapest I see. >> >> See them here: http://www.modelrailroader.net/ho_tendertrucks.php >> >> Denis >> >> >> >> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >> Behalf >> Of Joel Holmes >> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:45 AM >> To: Vintage HO Group >> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Denis, >> >> I did find a 8 wheel tender truck on Bowser but have no idea if it is a >> Buckeye or the standard 8 wheel truck. >> >> Joel >> >>> You're right Joel, I was thinking of PRR's Long Haul tender. >>> >>> Denis >>> >>> >>> >>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Joel Holmes >>> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:34 PM >>> To: Vintage HO Group >>> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Denis, >>> >>> I cannot use Buckeye trucks as they would not be prototypical. I will >>> look at Bowser. I do not like Bowser because of their very high shipping >>> costs. However, I just may get one anyhow. >>> >>> Joel >>> >>>> Joel, >>>> >>>> See if Athearn makes Buckeye trucks. Also, check Greenway and Bowser, >>>> filtering your search with T-1 parts. >>>> >>>> Denis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Joel Holmes >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:22 PM >>>> To: Vintage HO Group >>>> Subject: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I am in need of a pair of 8 wheel tender trucks like used on the PA >>>> 4-4-4-4's. If any one has a pair and would like to part with them, >>>> please >>>> contact me off line at lehighvalley at twlakes dot com. >>>> >>>> Joel Holmes >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21819	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: 8 Wheel Tender Trucks

Hi Jake, Unfortunately, I need a pair. I will keep you I mind if I get another single pair. Thank you. Joel > Joel, > I have ONE truck ! Not a pair but just one. I had to replace > one truck several years ago I bought a pair but only used one. > If you only need one you are welcome to this one for 1/2 the cost > of a pair plus the postage to you. The trucks come in a foam filled > plastic box. Just tell me how you want it shipped and I can shoot you > the cost. > Jake Bechtel > Gadsden, AL > > On 1/27/14, Joel Holmes <lehighvalley@...> wrote: >> Hi Dennis, >> >> That is the one. I could not bring up a picture of the truck when I >> went >> to Bowser. I think they may have more than one web address and I must >> have gotten the incorrect site. I will order one. That will give me >> the >> two that I need. Thank you for your help. >> >> Joel >> >>> Joel, >>> >>> I think the question is, did Bowser have an eight wheel truck, that >>> wasn't >>> for the T-1 tender. I agree that B's shipping is over the top, >>> especially >>> for a 1/10 ounce detail part. >>> >>> I will check on another forum for the truck, and check on the internet. >>> >>> I'll get back to you. >>> >>> >>> >>> I'm getting back. Bowser's 7006 PRR 8 wheel (pair) are the T-1 trucks. >>> And >>> also the cheapest I see. >>> >>> See them here: http://www.modelrailroader.net/ho_tendertrucks.php >>> >>> Denis >>> >>> >>> >>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Joel Holmes >>> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:45 AM >>> To: Vintage HO Group >>> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi Denis, >>> >>> I did find a 8 wheel tender truck on Bowser but have no idea if it is a >>> Buckeye or the standard 8 wheel truck. >>> >>> Joel >>> >>>> You're right Joel, I was thinking of PRR's Long Haul tender. >>>> >>>> Denis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Joel Holmes >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:34 PM >>>> To: Vintage HO Group >>>> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Denis, >>>> >>>> I cannot use Buckeye trucks as they would not be prototypical. I will >>>> look at Bowser. I do not like Bowser because of their very high >>>> shipping >>>> costs. However, I just may get one anyhow. >>>> >>>> Joel >>>> >>>>> Joel, >>>>> >>>>> See if Athearn makes Buckeye trucks. Also, check Greenway and Bowser, >>>>> filtering your search with T-1 parts. >>>>> >>>>> Denis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Joel Holmes >>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 5:22 PM >>>>> To: Vintage HO Group >>>>> Subject: [vintageHO] 8 Wheel Tender Trucks >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I am in need of a pair of 8 wheel tender trucks like used on the PA >>>>> 4-4-4-4's. If any one has a pair and would like to part with them, >>>>> please >>>>> contact me off line at lehighvalley at twlakes dot com. >>>>> >>>>> Joel Holmes >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> Yahoo Groups Links >> >> >> >> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21820	From: prandn	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: FS: Gorre & Daphetid Items

FS:  Gorre & Daphetid Items   Model Railroading with John Allen, Soft Cover 2nd printing 1982 - Used, Very Good Condition.  $75 + postage   Model Railroading with John Allen, Soft Cover 3nd printing 1989 - Used, Very Good Condition.  $75 + postage   Model Railroading with John Allen, Soft Cover 3nd printing 1989 - Used, Very Good Condition.  $75 + postage   Model Railroading with John Allen, Westcott, Hard Bound – 1996 New, $200 + postage   Model Railroading with John Allen, Hard Bound, Hayden expanded version 2011 w/ eratta – New still in shrink wrap, $70 + postage   En Train avec with John Allen, Westcott, Soft Cover in French – New, & Bons Baisers de Ferbach, by Jacques Le Plat, Hard bound, New in shrink wrap – both books  $100 + postage   G&D Photo Stamps, Wizard of Monterey The GD Lines ( rear view photo of John Allen ) – new unused sheet of 20 - $0.39 USA stamps.  These were the then 1st class sheets of stamps made back in the days of The GD Lines ( http://www.gdlines.com/ )  CD / DVD sets ( circa 2007 - 200-476-2504 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 6  of 15 ), $20 + postage each   G&D Photo Stamps, The GD Lines ( front photo of John Allen with SquawBottom station ) – new unused sheet of 20 - $4.05 USA stamps.  These were the then Priority Mail class sheets of stamps made back in the days of The GD Lines ( http://www.gdlines.com/ )  CD / DVD sets ( circa 2007 - 200-481-528 1, 2 & 3 of 5 ), $125 + postage each   Scenery Ideas by Fine Scale Miniatures – A Tribute to the Late John Allen, 16 pages yellow soft cover Very good condition.  $80 + postage     RoundHouse – Overton Baggage #7761 G&D, ( Blue Box ) new un-built $25 + postage. RoundHouse – Overton Baggage #7761 G&D, ( Blue Box ) new un-built $25 + postage. RoundHouse – Overton Coach #7763 G&D, ( Blue Box ) new un-built $25 + postage. RoundHouse – Overton Business #7764 G&D, ( Blue Box ) new un-built $25 + postage. RoundHouse – Overton Business #7764 G&D, ( Blue Box ) new un-built $25 + postage.   Buy all 5 for:  $120 + postage.     RoundHouse – 50’ Overland Baggage #5196 G&D – “ Mousebelly “, ( Yellow Box ) new un-built $27.50 + postage. RoundHouse – 50’ Overland Combination #5197 G&D – “ Eagles Nest “, ( Yellow Box ) new un-built $27.50 + postage. RoundHouse – 50’ Overland Combination #5197 G&D – “ Eagles Nest “, ( Yellow Box ) new un-built $27.50 + postage. RoundHouse – 50’ Overland Passenger #5198 G&D – “ Mt. Alexamder “, ( Yellow Box ) new un-built $27.50 + postage. RoundHouse – 50’ Overland Observation #5199 G&D – “ Great Divide “, ( Yellow Box ) new un-built $27.50 + postage.   Buy all 5 for $125 + postage.   Accurail:  Gorre & Daphetid 5513, 40' Box car kit, purchased throught the NMRA, NIB. $25 + postage. Accurail:  Gorre & Daphetid 5516, 40' Box car kit, purchased throught the NMRA, NIB. $25 + postage. Accurail:  Gorre & Daphetid 5548, 40' Box car kit, purchased throught the NMRA, NIB. $25 + postage.   Buy all 3 for $70 + postage.   Payment by PayPal or USPS Money Order ( Next business day shipping ) or Bank Check ( 5 business day hold before shipping.   Pictures available on request. Please contact me off list.   As always, I will entertain any reasonable offer. Loren Martell Beaverton, OR 97006 503-810-9018

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21821	From: prandn	Date: 1/27/2014
Subject: Re: Prices for RR books reduced

The following have sold.  Thank you!   Creating Micro Layouts:  Model Railroading in Extremely Small Spaces, by Carl Arendt.,   52 Micro Layouts You Can Build:  Model Railroading in Extremely Small Spaces, signed by Carl Arendt &Railway   Reflections ( A Historical Review of Utah Railroads ) by Stephen L. Carr with Illustrations by Gilbert Bennett, signed by Mr. Bennett.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21822	From: David Emery	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: H.D. Scale Models?

Anyone know about this company? I'm building a 36' truss rod (wood) car kit, pre-lettered/painted for Rutland. Instructions leave a lot to be desired, and I'm not convinced the lettering is correct, let alone the car kit in general is an accurate prototype. dave

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21823	From: acace@juno.com	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models?

Dave,   Company was located in Sterling Junction,  Ma.  Snall town near Worcester. Made a line of wood kits, mostly NE roads. I agree that the plans are pretty bastc. As for decals, try the Rutland Hisc, te see whatis correc t

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21824	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models?

Well,   I found these instructions on hoseeker.net. They are a tad sparse but there is sufficient data there to build the kit. So far as prototypical accuracy it may not be exactly correct for the decal set provided but it certainly looks like a good representation of box cars of the era. Back in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s that was about as good as it got with but a few exceptions.   http://hoseeker.net/hdscalemodels/hdscale3640Boxcarinstructionspg1.jpg   Note the link is for the first of 5 pages. I would definitely call this a “craftsman” style kit.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Emery Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:00 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] H.D. Scale Models?     Anyone know about this company? I'm building a 36' truss rod (wood) car kit, pre-lettered/painted for Rutland. Instructions leave a lot to be desired, and I'm not convinced the lettering is correct, let alone the car kit in general is an accurate prototype. dave

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21825	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models?

On 1/28/2014 5:26 PM, John Hagen wrote: Well,   I found these instructions on hoseeker.net. They are a tad sparse but there is sufficient data there to build the kit. So far as prototypical accuracy it may not be exactly correct for the decal set provided but it certainly looks like a good representation of box cars of the era. Back in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s that was about as good as it got with but a few exceptions.   http://hoseeker.net/hdscalemodels/hdscale3640Boxcarinstructionspg1.jpg   Note the link is for the first of 5 pages. I would definitely call this a “craftsman” style kit.   John Hagen   ! From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Emery Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:00 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] H.D. Scale Models?     Anyone know about this company? I'm building a 36' truss rod (wood) car kit, pre-lettered/painted for Rutland. Instructions leave a lot to be desired, and I'm not convinced the lettering is correct, let alone the car kit in general is an accurate prototype. dave Probably their most unique kit was this one from my collection.  Hopefully most of you are old enough to understand the joke. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21826	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models? [1 Attachment]

Attachments : Old enough here.  Nice looking car, take care.   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 7:12 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] H.D. Scale Models? [1 Attachment]   On 1/28/2014 5:26 PM, John Hagen wrote: Well,   I found these instructions on hoseeker.net. They are a tad sparse but there is sufficient data there to build the kit. So far as prototypical accuracy it may not be exactly correct for the decal set provided but it certainly looks like a good representation of box cars of the era. Back in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s that was about as good as it got with but a few exceptions.   http://hoseeker.net/hdscalemodels/hdscale3640Boxcarinstructionspg1.jpg   Note the link is for the first of 5 pages. I would definitely call this a “craftsman” style kit.   John Hagen   ! From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Emery Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:00 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] H.D. Scale Models?     Anyone know about this company? I'm building a 36' truss rod (wood) car kit, pre-lettered/painted for Rutland . Instructions leave a lot to be desired, and I'm not convinced the lettering is correct, let alone the car kit in general is an accurate prototype. dave Probably their most unique kit was this one from my collection.  Hopefully most of you are old enough to understand the joke. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21827	From: John Hagen	Date: 1/28/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models? [1 Attachment]

Attachments : Can you say “Tricky Dicky?”   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 6:12 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] H.D. Scale Models? [1 Attachment]   On 1/28/2014 5:26 PM, John Hagen wrote: Well,   I found these instructions on hoseeker.net. They are a tad sparse but there is sufficient data there to build the kit. So far as prototypical accuracy it may not be exactly correct for the decal set provided but it certainly looks like a good representation of box cars of the era. Back in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s that was about as good as it got with but a few exceptions.   http://hoseeker.net/hdscalemodels/hdscale3640Boxcarinstructionspg1.jpg   Note the link is for the first of 5 pages. I would definitely call this a “craftsman” style kit.   John Hagen   ! From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Emery Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2014 10:00 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] H.D. Scale Models?     Anyone know about this company? I'm building a 36' truss rod (wood) car kit, pre-lettered/painted for Rutland. Instructions leave a lot to be desired, and I'm not convinced the lettering is correct, let alone the car kit in general is an accurate prototype. dave Probably their most unique kit was this one from my collection.  Hopefully most of you are old enough to understand the joke. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21828	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 1/29/2014
Subject: Re: Train cars and accessories

Some interest. I'm modeling the 1860 - 1880 era. Got anything appropriate? Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 1/22/14, Carlos <c.alicea925@...> wrote: Subject: [vintageHO] Train cars and accessories To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2014, 12:19 AM   I recently came across a significant amount of HO train stuff Among the cars is an c-2-a0-8-0 switcher in the box Also many mantua train cars un-opened Athearn, Tyco and roundhouse train cars and engines Many buildings and little people in un-opened boxes Looking to sell most of the collection Also many used cars inboxes and out of box Let me know if interested Thanks, Carlos #yiv2894837563 #yiv2894837563 -- #yiv2894837563ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv2894837563 #yiv2894837563ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv2894837563 #yiv2894837563ygrp-mkp #yiv2894837563hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv2894837563 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 21829	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Steam Engine and other train show finds

I have posted some pictures of some vintage finds from the Amherst show on my blog.  I have several questions, including paint match of a EJ&I green gondola, and I bought a steam engine...that honestly, I have no idea what it is, or who the manufacturer is.  Is if worth fixing up, possibly needs a motor, maybe just a good cleaning.  Link to the blog is: nvrr49.blogspot.com. Thanks for looking.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21830	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

hi Kent It would be very interesting to see what the motor and chassis looks like without the body. The condition reminds me of a very old metal bodied Rivarossi loco someone asked me to "look at" a couple of years back. When I put power across the motor it ran (just about) - so just a simple case of replacement wheel pick-ups were required together with cleaning and a tiny bit of lubricating (by me), and bit of a paint job (by the owner). RogerW From: "nvrr49@..." <nvrr49@...> To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, 3 February 2014, 0:47 Subject: [vintageHO] Steam Engine and other train show finds   I have posted some pictures of some vintage finds from the Amherst show on my blog.  I have several questions, including paint match of a EJ&I green gondola, and I bought a steam engine...that honestly, I have no idea what it is, or who the manufacturer is.  Is if worth fixing up, possibly needs a motor, maybe just a good cleaning.  Link to the blog is: nvrr49.blogspot.com. Thanks for looking.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21831	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

Cute finds. Thanks for putting up the photos, Kent: I have no idea who did the little tank engine, but, to me, it really screams European. The low side gondola, green, from the distance seemed to say, "Selly," to me, but that's all I can think of. Others here are smarter than me. Dennis in E WA At 04:47 PM 2/2/2014, you wrote: >I have posted some pictures of some vintage finds from the Amherst >show on my blog. I have several questions, including paint match of >a EJ&I green gondola, and I bought a steam engine...that honestly, I >have no idea what it is, or who the manufacturer is. Is if worth >fixing up, possibly needs a motor, maybe just a good cleaning. Link >to the blog is: nvrr49.blogspot.com. > >Thanks for looking. > >Kent Hurley >Kansas City, MO >Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21832	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/2/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

The Green gondola is MDC catalog number G-103.  The locomotive looks similar to an early PFM engine. Garrett (Garry) Spear On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 7:47 PM, nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...> wrote:   I have posted some pictures of some vintage finds from the Amherst show on my blog.  I have several questions, including paint match of a EJ&I green gondola, and I bought a steam engine...that honestly, I have no idea what it is, or who the manufacturer is.  Is if worth fixing up, possibly needs a motor, maybe just a good cleaning.  Link to the blog is: nvrr49.blogspot.com. Thanks for looking.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21833	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

On 03/02/14 13:47, nvrr49@... wrote: > I have posted some pictures of some vintage finds from the Amherst show on my blog. I have several questions, including paint match of a EJ&I green gondola, and I bought a steam engine...that honestly, I have no idea what it is, or who the manufacturer is. Is if worth fixing up, possibly needs a motor, maybe just a good cleaning. Link to the blog is: nvrr49.blogspot.com. > > Thanks for looking. > > Kent Hurley > Kansas City, MO > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/ Kent, the loco looks to be partly kit-built, partly hand built, but who knows? Chassis and motor look similar to Japanese KTM.. I'm moderator of the yahoo Sakai and Seki Toy Train, which also covers KTM, and I have several KTM's in my collection. Sakai also produced some vintage HO and a bit of S-gauge. Visitors welcome, or you are welcome to join us.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21835	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

Kent, I sent an earlier post that will end up in the digest, but I deleted it after I realized that you already posted more detailed photos of the loco. What you have is a rather nicely preserved "Little Jimmy" by International Models. Probably made by the same people who later did Ken Kidder's imports. See the following link and look at the photo on the top of the page. http://www.hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg03.jpg Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21836	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

Mat,   You have nailed it for sure.   And the “Kupeeze” coupler(s) sure look to be a copy of the Baker.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mattjcoleman@... Sent: Monday, February 03, 2014 5:37 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] RE: Steam Engine and other train show finds     Kent, I sent an earlier post that will end up in the digest, but I deleted it after I realized that you already posted more detailed photos of the loco. What you have is a rather nicely preserved "Little Jimmy" by International Models. Probably made by the same people who later did Ken Kidder's imports. See the following link and look at the photo on the top of the page. http://www.hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg03.jpg Matt Coleman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21837	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

The cars with the painted sides are MDC/Roundhouse, pre-1960.  The Selley cars were similar to the point of being identical; I had always heard that they pirated other manufacturers' products to make their freight car line.  At the very least their gondola and ore car line perfectly paralleled Roundhouse's.  However, Selley never offered cars with painted sides.  John B. Allyn From: "Doug Harris" <digbee@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 3, 2014 3:02:09 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam Engine and other train show finds   On 03/02/14 13:47, nvrr49@... wrote: > I have posted some pictures of some vintage finds from the Amherst show on my blog. I have several questions, including paint match of a EJ&I green gondola, and I bought a steam engine...that honestly, I have no idea what it is, or who the manufacturer is. Is if worth fixing up, possibly needs a motor, maybe just a good cleaning. Link to the blog is: nvrr49.blogspot.com. > > Thanks for looking. > > Kent Hurley > Kansas City, MO > Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/ Kent, the loco looks to be partly kit-built, partly hand built, but who knows? Chassis and motor look similar to Japanese KTM.. I'm moderator of the yahoo Sakai and Seki Toy Train, which also covers KTM, and I have several KTM's in my collection. Sakai also produced some vintage HO and a bit of S-gauge. Visitors welcome, or you are welcome to join us.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21838	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

John, Thanks for the information. I didn't know that Selley stole whole car kits. I have four or five different kits and thought they looked familiar but didn't know that some might be Roundhouse. I knew they took some detail parts but also seemed to have some of their own. And since you seem to know about this, were the Selley white metal coach and combine kits their own work, or did they acquire them from someone else? I have the unbuilt kits and was curious. Matt <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< The cars with the painted sides are MDC/Roundhouse, pre-1960.  The Selley cars were similar to the point of being identical; I had always heard that they pirated other manufacturers' products to make their freight car line.  At the very least their gondola and ore car line perfectly paralleled Roundhouse's.  However, Selley never offered cars with painted sides.  John B. Allyn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21839	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

John, Thank you, and thank you also for bringing back to mind the name of the coupler! I had forgotten "Kupeeze" until I read your post. Matt <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Mat,   You have nailed it for sure.   And the “Kupeeze” coupler(s) sure look to be a copy of the Baker.   John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21840	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

So far as I know their shorty coach and combine kits were their own design.  They do bear some resemblance to the Laconia/Binkley Sierra coaches/combines but not enough to suggest anything nefarious. The giveaways on the gondolas is the unique low side gondola and offering the high side gondola with optional C&O ends.  Roundhouse did their castings in zamac while Selley used some heavier, softer metal -- lead alloy or type metal perhaps.   I've always wanted to give the Selley passenger cars a try as they were very well detailed for the time.  The Model Railroader review (don't have my collection here, but it was some time in the late 50's) noted their extreme weight.   John B. Allyn From: mattjcoleman@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 3, 2014 10:04:16 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Steam Engine and other train show finds   John, Thanks for the information. I didn't know that Selley stole whole car kits. I have four or five different kits and thought they looked familiar but didn't know that some might be Roundhouse. I knew they took some detail parts but also seemed to have some of their own. And since you seem to know about this, were the Selley white metal coach and combine kits their own work, or did they acquire them from someone else? I have the unbuilt kits and was curious. Matt <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< The cars with the painted sides are MDC/Roundhouse, pre-1960.  The Selley cars were similar to the point of being identical; I had always heard that they pirated other manufacturers' products to make their freight car line.  At the very least their gondola and ore car line perfectly paralleled Roundhouse's.  However, Selley never offered cars with painted sides.  John B. Allyn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21841	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/3/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine and other train show finds

John, Thanks for that info too. And yes, the Selley passenger car kits are heavy, probably 2.5 times the NMRA recommended practice. You wouldn't want them at the end of a long mixed train on sharp curves. Matt <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< So far as I know their shorty coach and combine kits were their own design.  They do bear some resemblance to the Laconia/Binkley Sierra coaches/combines but not enough to suggest anything nefarious. The giveaways on the gondolas is the unique low side gondola and offering the high side gondola with optional C&O ends.  Roundhouse did their castings in zamac while Selley used some heavier, softer metal -- lead alloy or type metal perhaps.   I've always wanted to give the Selley passenger cars a try as they were very well detailed for the time.  The Model Railroader review (don't have my collection here, but it was some time in the late 50's) noted their extreme weight.   John B. Allyn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21842	From: Loren Martell	Date: 2/4/2014
Subject: FS: Logging items

All are Ho scale.   Fine Scale Miniatures:  Kit #160, Logging Repair Shed                    $90 + postage Fine Scale Miniatures:  Kit #150, Freight House                                $80 + postage Fine Scale Miniatures:  Kit #55, Weary Willy’s Truck Terminal        $110 + postage Fine Scale Miniatures:  Kit #45, Freight House                                  $90 + postage   Keystone Locomotive Works:  #101, Portable Horizontal Boiler      $20 + postage   Alexander Scale Models:  CL-100, Log Buggy                                 $10 + postage   Kadee Line:  L-103 Truss Log Car                                                     $30 + postage Kadee Line:  #104 Industrial Caboose                                               $17.50 + postage Kadee Line:  #104 Industrial Caboose                                               $17.50 + postage   Logger’s Lexicon, by John T. Labbe, Like New HB                         $75 + postage   Brass unpainted Red Ball / Howell Day HO Rail Truck w/Trailer  $125 + postage     Payment by PayPal ( split Paypal ) or USPS Money Order ( Next business day shipping ) or Bank Check ( 5 business day hold ) before shipping.   Pictures available on request.  Please contact me off list.   As always, I will entertain any to offers. Loren Martell Beaverton, OR 97006 503-810-9018

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21843	From: earlyrail	Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: Unknown brass FT's

Added Photo album and photos of the cast brass FTA and FTB that I found at the Springfield Show a week ago. Checked HOSeeker and these are NOT the Dallas Model Company models. The detail on the roof and louver area are vastly different. Also the mounting for the drive is different. No markings as to manufacturer. So the usual question, who and when? Howard Garner

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21844	From: rshiel01	Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: Re: Unknown brass FT's

H'lo Howard...where did you post the album and photo's...couldn't see it in the Photos section. Chrs, Russ

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21845	From: Loren Martell	Date: 2/5/2014
Subject: FS - Logging Items Sold & Still Available

All FSM kits have sold pending payment. Thank you.   Still available: Keystone Locomotive Works: #101, Portable Horizontal Boiler $20 + postage Alexander Scale Models: CL-100, Log Buggy $10 + postage Kadee Line: L-103 Truss Log Car $30 + postage Kadee Line: #104 Industrial Caboose $17.50 + postage Kadee Line: #104 Industrial Caboose $17.50 + postage Logger’s Lexicon, by John T. Labbe, Like New HB $75 + postage Brass unpainted Red Ball / Howell Day HO Rail Truck w/Trailer $125 + postage

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21846	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/6/2014
Subject: Re: Unknown brass FT's

On 06/02/14 17:54, rshiel01@... wrote: > H'lo Howard...where did you post the album and photo's...couldn't see it in the Photos section. Chrs, Russ Missed 'em here, too.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21847	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 2/6/2014
Subject: Re: Unknown brass FT's

> H'lo Howard...where did you post the album and photo's...couldn't see it in the Photos section. Chrs, Russ For some reason the photo section did n ot work. Please check the files section, folder "cast brass FT's" Thanks Howard --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21848	From: JP Barger	Date: 2/7/2014
Subject: Walthers Part Number C 924-set of 4 Reefer Hatches-originally for Wa

Dear HO modelers:  Your reefer modeling friend is trying to complete the assembly of the 10 differently labeled cars of the Walthers 8801 series, offered by Walthers between 1958 & 1968. Not all the material I have gathered was mint, so there is some damage to delicate parts I have, mostly to the operating hatch covers. These parts have two extended pivot bars, each  of which has a pivot pin attached to it at a right angle. The pivot pins fit into small pivot housings which attach to the roof by inserting a pin on the bottom of the pivot housing into a drilled hole in the roof. All four hatches and eight pivot housings were made from soft metal castings, cast in such a way that 2 hatches and 4 pivot housings came in one casting. These were packaged in the kits in a sealed plastic bag with other soft metal parts such as crossbeams, steel pins etc. The hatch covers represent wooden ones installed on new reefers before approximately the mid thirties. It's the pivot pins that break.   Walthers also offered a set of the same parts, 4 hatches and 8 pivot housings, in their parts line, part no. C 924. equal to one car's requirement. This set of parts was in Walthers catalogs in the 1960's. By the way, as I get it, these kits were the very last Walthers craftsman kits.   I could use a half dozen of these sets if any good person on these lists knows where there are some. Please reply directly to my email address if you can help. I will, of course make proper compensation for these parts. TIA for any help you can give me on this little project.   JP Barger

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21849	From: Mike Bauers 55	Date: 2/7/2014
Subject: Mystery Art.....

Here's a vintage 50's or so HO brass articulated kit with no original box or paper. Who do you think made the kit??? eBay item .... 350993505392 Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21850	From: Garry Spear	Date: 2/7/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Art.....

Perhaps Winton? Garry Spear On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Mike Bauers 55 <mwbauers55@...> wrote:   Here's a vintage 50's or so HO brass articulated kit with no original box or paper. Who do you think made the kit??? eBay item .... 350993505392 Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21851	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/7/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Art.....

On 2/7/2014 6:11 PM, Garry Spear wrote: Perhaps Winton? Garry Spear On Fri, Feb 7, 2014 at 5:43 PM, Mike Bauers 55 <mwbauers55@...> wrote:   Here's a vintage 50's or so HO brass articulated kit with no original box or paper. Who do you think made the kit??? eBay item .... 350993505392 Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone I suspect it was probably brought in by somebody like International, And is the same parts that later became the Akane C&O 2-6-6-6  (of which the same seller also has one, at 10 times the price.) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21852	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: P L T-1 Parts

Hello, I am in need of valve gear Hangers and valve gear Parts for my Penn Line T-1.  Bowser no longer has hangers, so any suggestions for substitutes? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21853	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Hobbyline set

Today at a train show I picked up Hobbyline Train Set #1 (per labeling) in its box, with the FM switcher, three freight cars and a caboose. :Photo of the box interior here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/harrygbutler/12422654203/. Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21854	From: cwrailman	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Re: H.D. Scale Models?

I would doubt that any of the cars offered by H-D Models were prototypical.  At best they might have been in the same ream of reality as the Silver Streak cars.  H-D Models were best known for their tongue in cheek series which included, the Watergate car, the Kosher Pork car, Phartz & Howe, Mountain Dew and Castors Oil car.  You can only imaging what each company slogan was based on the name of the company.  I have all those cars in my collection and a duplicate of one listed for sale on the Hobby Shop page my WEB site.   Denny Janitor in Training CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops WEB site: CWRailman.com  Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21855	From: Mike Bauers 55	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set

Now comes the personal torture...... Will you operate it, or store it as a collectible ?? Decisions, decisions..... Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Feb 9, 2014, at 7:01 PM, <hbutlerlists@...> wrote: Today at a train show I picked up Hobbyline Train Set #1 (per labeling) in its box, with the FM switcher, three freight cars and a caboose. :Photo of the box interior here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/harrygbutler/12422654203/. Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21856	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set

On 2/9/2014 7:49 PM, Mike Bauers 55 wrote: Now comes the personal torture...... Will you operate it, or store it as a collectible ?? Decisions, decisions..... Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone The name of the group is Vintage HO OPERATORS <G> Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21857	From: rick flaherty	Date: 2/9/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set

Attachments : Bugs P-38[8].png Nice find.  Santa Clara? Rick From: <hbutlerlists@...> Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, February 9, 2014 5:01 PM To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [vintageHO] Hobbyline set   Today at a train show I picked up Hobbyline Train Set #1 (per labeling) in its box, with the FM switcher, three freight cars and a caboose. :Photo of the box interior here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/harrygbutler/12422654203/. Harry Butler

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21858	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set

Fantastic find Henry. I would have to do a cleanup-tuneup on this set and RUN IT! What an opportunity ! A complete 1953 RTR premium set in like new condition. Jake Bechtel Gadsden, AL On 2/9/14, hbutlerlists@... <hbutlerlists@...> wrote: > Today at a train show I picked up Hobbyline Train Set #1 (per labeling) in > its box, with the FM switcher, three freight cars and a caboose. :Photo of > the box interior here: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/harrygbutler/12422654203/. > > Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21859	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: New trolley

I know most of us aren't trolley oriented. But here is a video of a brand new trolley model with sound in the video. The trolley faithful have been beating the brush for newer stuff and finally this came out. I want to point out that the older stuff sure does run a lot more quietly. This model uses the latest Bachmann Peter Witt trolley drive in a 3d printed chassis in a Chinese molded and painted body.. So when you're running your vintage models, you can feel good about how the old stuff just doesn't have the mechanism noise of some of the newer stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sJNNaIan6U It's strange how this happens so many years after the better running vintage models were produced. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21860	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set

What Don said. :-) Definitely slated for operation at some point. The torture: Do I keep it, or do I donate it to the local historical society to run at Christmas here in Morrisville (home of John A. English & Co. for awhile)?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21861	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set

Thanks, Rick. Nope, I found this out here in Pennsylvania, not too far from its original birthplace.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21862	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 2/10/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set

Thanks, Jake! I'm looking forward to running it. The engine needs a replacement mounting bracket for one of the trucks, but I have a non-working John English FM that I can use to create a pattern for this one.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21863	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set

Cheers ! The Hobbyline set was a RTR product from John English so using the kit motormount as a pattern is a super idea. Jake Bechtel Gadsden, AL On 2/10/14, hbutlerlists@... <hbutlerlists@...> wrote: > Thanks, Jake! I'm looking forward to running it. The engine needs a > replacement mounting bracket for one of the trucks, but I have a non-working > John English FM that I can use to create a pattern for this one.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21864	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: New trolley

Back in the 70’s thru the turn of the century this would be a candidate for redoing to quiet it down. Anyone who would go to the effort of having trolley’s powered off the overhead would not accept that much noise.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 6:42 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] New trolley     I know most of us aren't trolley oriented. But here is a video of a brand new trolley model with sound in the video. The trolley faithful have been beating the brush for newer stuff and finally this came out. I want to point out that the older stuff sure does run a lot more quietly. This model uses the latest Bachmann Peter Witt trolley drive in a 3d printed chassis in a Chinese molded and painted body.. So when you're running your vintage models, you can feel good about how the old stuff just doesn't have the mechanism noise of some of the newer stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sJNNaIan6U It's strange how this happens so many years after the better running vintage models were produced. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21865	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbyline set

BORROW it to the historical society for Christmas.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hbutlerlists@... Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 8:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] RE: Hobbyline set     What Don said. :-) Definitely slated for operation at some point. The torture: Do I keep it, or do I donate it to the local historical society to run at Christmas here in Morrisville (home of John A. English & Co. for awhile)?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21866	From: 23weldon	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: New trolley

Not strange to me .... Cheap spur gears.  And the Hibachi Syndrome.   Whatzat?   45 years ago, long before $1000 stainless steel gas barbeques we had little cast iron hibachis.  They produced great results doing steaks with a small amount of charcoal briquettes.   The secret was the heavy cast iron base which radiated cooking heat with a uniform distribution.  The Taiwan foundries were in brutal competition to hold the wholesale price down and the things were selling in big volume in the USA.  The chain store buyers over here only cared about the lower prices and were well removed from anything resembling complaints about cooking performance.  Those Chinese artisans perfected iron casting technology to the point where they were casting 1/8" thick walls on the things.  And guess what? You could buy a Hibachi for $9.95;  but the cooking performance went away.  And the information chain from customer to manufacturer was so long and loose that the word about lousy cooking and dropping sales never got back.  Better American charcoal barbeque designs came along and the Hibachi was dead.  Fast forward 25 years to our motorhome days and I was able to buy an old fashioned Japanese style hibachi that was compact and easy to store for travel.  Paid around $100 for it.  Worked beautifully.  But by then the hot new item was propane barbies.  I camp out of the back of my old Toyota truck these days and there is hardly room for the oversize backpack stove I use to cook let alone that old hibachi.  Can't seem to remember the last time I cooked dinner somewhere in the western outback of the US and enjoyed the mountain air seasoned with the aroma of a grilling steak while sipping cheap red wine out of a plastic cup. Ed Weldon   you can feel good about how the old stuff just doesn't have the mechanism noise of some of the newer stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sJNNaIan6U It's strange how this happens so many years after the better running vintage models were produced Best to ya...Mike Bauers

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21867	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/11/2014
Subject: Re: New trolley

On 12/02/14 6:05, 23weldon wrote: > Not strange to me .... Cheap spur gears. And the Hibachi Syndrome. Whatzat? Yep. They don't make 'em like that any more.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21868	From: protowatchdog.geo	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: slightly off topic: atlas custom line

This is slightly off topic, but still relevant. Many of us run our trains on atlas track, I have noticed that most of the custom line switches are out of stock, and have been for a while. does anybody know what's going on? I assume they are not a discontinued item, but they are getting increasingly difficult to find. Jeffery s ward sr Pittsburgh, pa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21869	From: protowatchdog.geo	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: hotco

i have a couple of cars with hotco stamped on the underframe. i seem to recall they came in jewel boxes similar to n scale cars.  i can find very little info online about this company, but i assume hotco stood for ho train company. can anybody tell me more about them? Jeffery s ward sr Pittsburgh, pa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21870	From: corlissbs	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: slightly off topic: atlas custom line

I have been told that Atlas is having troubles paying their bill to China and are behind in payments.  This from my LHS.  Don't know if it is true or not.   Brad Smith Franklin,WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21871	From: louis niederlander	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: slightly off topic: atlas custom line

This is unlikely.   Many manufacturers used SDK-HK (Sanda Kan) as their contract manufacturer.  They failed due to gross mismanagement and were purchased/assimilated by the next biggest contract manufacturer, Kader Industrial.   Many manufacturers struggled to find new reliable CM's and struggled to retrieve their tooling from SDK.    Kader owns Bachmann/Williams outright.    Regards,   Louis N     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: corlissbs@... Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 09:55:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] slightly off topic: atlas custom line I have been told that Atlas is having troubles paying their bill to China and are behind in payments.  This from my LHS.  Don't know if it is true or not.   Brad Smith Franklin,WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21872	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: slightly off topic: atlas custom line

I have been told that shipments from China are behind. Robert

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21873	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: hotco

Attachments : If Jim H were available, he could tell you their history. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wardjeffe@... Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 7:38 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] hotco     i have a couple of cars with hotco stamped on the underframe. i seem to recall they came in jewel boxes similar to n scale cars.  i can find very little info online about this company, but i assume hotco stood for ho train company. can anybody tell me more about them?   Jeffery s ward sr Pittsburgh, pa

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21874	From: louis niederlander	Date: 2/12/2014
Subject: Re: slightly off topic: atlas custom line

That's about changing builders; not about finances.   Louis N     > From: alabamacentral@... > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 10:56:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] slightly off topic: atlas custom line > > I have been told that shipments from China are behind. > > Robert

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21875	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

I guess I figured we needed something to talk about. A while back I picked up a partially completed Bowser Challenger. No tender, (which I guess is the way they sold them) All running gear is finished; motor attached, which appears to be the DC-71 motor. Motor shaft gear drives rear engine; drive line with Delron, (?), couplings drive the front, which has dual drive shaft bearings. From what I see on HOSeeker, I'm thinking this is the latest, or next-to latest version. Also looks to have a batch of nice castings, many of which are brass. Likely a super detail kit or some portion thereof. So my question is: where to look for a tender??? Moreover, What tender would be the best buy? (Bowser I suppose might be the more correct) I've never been fond of the Centipede style, and those I see on ebay run a bit expensive. I've also seen husky Vanderbuilt tenders in photos, and those appeal to me more, IF prototypical. Thoughts? Finally, the Bowser literature specifies their tender to be a Monogram Model 1600, 1601 or 1602. I know Monogram made an inexpensive plastic snap-together Challenger kit......Bowser can't mean THAT tender can they? If so, that must be where the, "wheel kit," I hear allusions about comes in. But a Bowser metal locomotive and a plastic tender?? Can someone clarify me on these points? I've already read where folks will buy the Rivarossi Challenger before the Bowser because, "it has better detail." But then, ........we're Vintage, aren't we? Dennis in E WA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21876	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 2/13/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

The  Bowser  SP1 Semi-Vanderbilt tender is the one intended for this beast.  Lots of them on E-bay all the time.  The allusion to a Monogram tender means that yours is most likely last run. It's a Centipede type, 14 wheel tender, common to challengers, FEFs and other large UP and SP engines.           Cal Scale, now part of the Bowser Empire, did casting sets in the late 60's for this engine.  There was a series of articles on super-detailing this engine in Model Railroader. Wish I could remember the author's name.  Should be easy enough to track down if you want to follow that path, and would allow you inventory the parts you have.         Good Luck       Fred Holladay     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: dbtrail@... Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:12:54 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?   I guess I figured we needed something to talk about. A while back I picked up a partially completed Bowser Challenger. No tender, (which I guess is the way they sold them) All running gear is finished; motor attached, which appears to be the DC-71 motor. Motor shaft gear drives rear engine; drive line with Delron, (?), couplings drive the front, which has dual drive shaft bearings. From what I see on HOSeeker, I'm thinking this is the latest, or next-to latest version. Also looks to have a batch of nice castings, many of which are brass. Likely a super detail kit or some portion thereof. So my question is: where to look for a tender??? Moreover, What tender would be the best buy? (Bowser I suppose might be the more correct) I've never been fond of the Centipede style, and those I see on ebay run a bit expensive. I've also seen husky Vanderbuilt tenders in photos, and those appeal to me more, IF prototypical. Thoughts? Finally, the Bowser literature specifies their tender to be a Monogram Model 1600, 1601 or 1602. I know Monogram made an inexpensive plastic snap-together Challenger kit......Bowser can't mean THAT tender can they? If so, that must be where the, "wheel kit," I hear allusions about comes in. But a Bowser metal locomotive and a plastic tender?? Can someone clarify me on these points? I've already read where folks will buy the Rivarossi Challenger before the Bowser because, "it has better detail." But then, ........we're Vintage, aren't we? Dennis in E WA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21877	From: dlsprite2003	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

Wasn't the Monogram plastic model a kit for the Big Boy loco that sold for 10 bucks at the time?   I'm not a UP guy, but I think the Big Boy and the Challenger shared the same 14 wheel tender design, no?   Anyway, the Monogram kit has a nicely detailed tender included, and it's use for the Bowser Challenger is quite feasible. Just have to modify for electrical pick up.  Someone, I'd bet Bowser, made the supplemental kit to provide electrical pick for the plastic Monogram tender.  If memory still working, the conversion kit sold for about 15 bucks and I believe it had metal wheel sets and some sort of metal axle bearings, etc.   Although I believe it to be incorrect for UP, as a stand in especially for a private road, I'd use the Bowser SP Vanderbuilt tender if I somehow had obtained one, or could get one easily.        I think finding the Monogram Big Boy kit so as to salvage the tender may be a tough but rewarding search.   Finding the 14 wheel tender alone, even with or without the conversion kit, may be an even tougher, hit or miss proposition.  I'd search Ebay using all the appropriate search terms I could think of, but I think your best opportunity for locating one is at the larger flea market and the big train shows where lots of used stuff is sold.  Good Luck, Dave Spritke

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21878	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

I searched the Model Railroader 75 year DVD archive and came up with some things.   December 1958, pages 38-40   "HO Challenger - a Photo Study"   "Bob Darrin of Hollywood, Calif., has achieved a rare degree of realism by adding details to his Bowser 4-6-6-4"   This is mainly photos and not much text.  It says he used the Kemtron 14-wheel tender which is what I definitely remember was the hot ticket for this.  The later Monogram Big Boy plastic tender provides a superstructure and side frames that I think work fine and make into something more realistic than the Bowser semi-Vanderbilt.  It does look like an extremely nice job.   Below, I have typed (manually, can't copy text from the archive) in the Trade Topics for when this came out and they pointed out the tender body was made of maple.  Maybe it was later made out of metal? The trade topics review wonders if the tender is not metal because "maybe the times prohibit it".  Those "times" would be the Korean war and there were definitely material shortages.    November, 1951 has the following description in Trade Topics and a single small photo of engine and semi vanderbilt tender:   ******************************************************** HO Articulated Locomotive   Bowser Manufacturing Co. 606 First St., Redlands, Calif. Price"  $52.50 less tender;  tender with trucks, $8.50   The Bowser HO guage 4-6-6-4 articulated is a well-designed, good-looking 10 1/2", 47 1/4 oz. model of the husky Also-built Union Pacific 3900-series locomotives.   This loco kit is definitely not in the "shake the box and it'll fall together" class.  Being a large engine, it necessarily has a large number of parts (over 230) that must be carefully and properly assembled.  We spent about 25 hours on the assembly and found that taking the time to prepare the parts as instructed paid off with a sweet-running model.   The numerous Zamac castings in the kit are accurately and cleanly made.  The 9 1/2" boiler is especially good looking.  The castings and all of the other parts, made to quite close tolerances in many instances, fitted in place easily with only a few exceptions.   The engine is powered by the Bowser five-pole motor horizontally mounted to drive the two flexibly connected worm shafts.  The worm shafts are supported by four preceision-cast pillow blocks that automatically establish the correct spacing between worms and gears.  Each pillow block contains a swiveling, spherical bronze bearing through which the shaft runs.  The end block also has a ball thrust bearing to prevent any binding at the forward end of the worm shaft.  This construction, together with the two bronze bearings on each driver axle, contributes much to the quiet, smooth-running qualities of this engine and should greatly increase its life and efficiency.   We like the fact that the twelve 69" drivers were precision quartered and matched in sets.  As a result, both mechanisms ran smoothly the first time the side rods were attached.  We were also impressed by the attention given detail proporations.  The handrail wire, for example, is only about .0145" diameter - the equivalent of a No. 79 drill.   The assembly is adequately explained in eight 8 1/2" x 11" pages of printed instructions that are supplemented by a 11" x 17" sheet containing a large exploded assembly drawing on one side, with specifications and a photo of the assembled model on the other side.  Still another sheet explains disassembly and care of the motor.  We do think, however, that a sketch or description of all the five different valve gear reivets and some of the small screws would be helpful, since most of these are referred to only by name and number.   Assembly was accomplished without encountering any major diffuculty.  We did find that the short, rear, piston rods would not go into the rear cylinders as far as necessary and remedied this by drilling the hole a little deeper.  The projection on top of rear cylilnders kept the steampipes from seating and this was corrected by filing the project down slightly.  When assembling the valve gear, we had to file out the reverse links to accomoodate the shoulders of the radius rod rivets.  We also found it necessary to shorten the drive shaft about 3/32" and to enlarge the diameter of holes in the flexible couplings with a 3/32" drill.  These were minor and easily made corrections that, as far as we are concerned, do not detract from the value of the it, particularly when on considers that the 220 or so other parts did fit perfectly.   Operationwise, this loco was quite satisfactory.  It will negotiate curves as small as 18" radius after a few simple changes.  The engine overhang of 1.13" on an 18" curve is reduced to only a trifle over 1/2" on a 30" curve, so it naturally looks better on 24" to 30" curves.   The gear ratio of 31:1 seems to be just right, for the engine will throttle down to a crawl and accelerate to a top speed of about 75 scale m.p.h. running light.  Pulling a string of 31 cars, speeds ranged from a crawl to between 35 and 40 m.p.h.  Both ranges seem quite proper for this type of engine.   We found that our engine would pull more cars than can be used on the average layout.  With the addition of a 3 oz. weight on the center of the boiler, it hauled 31 cars through a reverse curve on a 3.4 per cent grade.  We have seen other Bowser articulateds pull over 50 cars up lesser grades.  We think it is quite a lot of high quality engine for the money.   The tender shown was assembled from a separate kit recently introduced by Bowser for use with the articulated.  It is a realistic model of the 18,500-gallon semi-Vanderbilt prototype equipped with Buckeye trucks.   The kit consists of a cast metal frame, a maple body, plastic tank end and top, handrail and posts, brass oil hatches, ladder stock, Athearn Buckeye trucks, a coupler insulating block, a drawbar and the necessary screws, nuts and washers.  At $8.50, we'd have preferred an all metal tender, but maybe the times prohibit it.   All parts fitted perfectly except the pump block housing in our kit, which was about 1/8" too narrow.  This made it impossible to attach the front end ladders in the proper places.   Once the tender is assembled, it is necessary to remove the entire body in order to remove the trucks.  This process could be simplified by the use of Central Valley snap-on kingpins (for which the trucks are tapped).   When the tender is coupled as instructed, the distance between it and the cab is not in keeping with the realism in the locomotive.  This too can be corrected by removing the coupling lug at rear of cab and connecting a longer, step-shaped drawbar with a bolt placed through an insulating sleeve in the unusued hole about 11/16" from rear of cab.   ********************************************************   I didn't find any other article in Model Railroader about detailing one of these when searching for "bowser" or "4-6-6-4" or "challenger" in titles.   There was an article series called "The Art of Superdetailing" in 1961-1962 by Bob Darwin.  Parts 3 throught 5 are taking the detailing of a Tenshodo Big Boy to a rather extreme level.  I remember that series well.   Nov, 1961 Part 1 "The Art of Superdetailing" Dec, 1961 Part 2 "Metalworking and Fastening Detail to Boilers" Feb, 1962 Part 3 "Design of a Good Running Gear" Mar, 1962 Part 4 "Superdetailing the Big Boy Superstructure" Apr, 1962 Part 5 "Completing Big Boy's Detail"   By the way, the Model Railroader archive searching is sometimes obtuse.  For example, it didn't see "part 2" whether using either the key word phrase "Art of superdetailing" or author "Darwin".  I had to find it by reading the contents page of the issues between parts 1 and 3.  So perhaps there is some Bowser detailing article that the searches couldn't find.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Holladay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 8:37 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?            The  Bowser  SP1 Semi-Vanderbilt tender is the one intended for this beast.  Lots of them on E-bay all the time.  The allusion to a Monogram tender means that yours is most likely last run. It's a Centipede type, 14 wheel tender, common to challengers, FEFs and other large UP and SP engines.           Cal Scale, now part of the Bowser Empire, did casting sets in the late 60's for this engine.  There was a series of articles on super-detailing this engine in Model Railroader. Wish I could remember the author's name.  Should be easy enough to track down if you want to follow that path, and would allow you inventory the parts you have.         Good Luck       Fred Holladay     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: dbtrail@... Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:12:54 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?   I guess I figured we needed something to talk about. A while back I picked up a partially completed Bowser Challenger. No tender, (which I guess is the way they sold them) All running gear is finished; motor attached, which appears to be the DC-71 motor. Motor shaft gear drives rear engine; drive line with Delron, (?), couplings drive the front, which has dual drive shaft bearings. From what I see on HOSeeker, I'm thinking this is the latest, or next-to latest version. Also looks to have a batch of nice castings, many of which are brass. Likely a super detail kit or some portion thereof. So my question is: where to look for a tender??? Moreover, What tender would be the best buy? (Bowser I suppose might be the more correct) I've never been fond of the Centipede style, and those I see on ebay run a bit expensive. I've also seen husky Vanderbuilt tenders in photos, and those appeal to me more, IF prototypical. Thoughts? Finally, the Bowser literature specifies their tender to be a Monogram Model 1600, 1601 or 1602. I know Monogram made an inexpensive plastic snap-together Challenger kit......Bowser can't mean THAT tender can they? If so, that must be where the, "wheel kit," I hear allusions about comes in. But a Bowser metal locomotive and a plastic tender?? Can someone clarify me on these points? I've already read where folks will buy the Rivarossi Challenger before the Bowser because, "it has better detail." But then, ........we're Vintage, aren't we? Dennis in E WA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21879	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

 The Monogram Big Boy is easy to find and probably almost always available.  There are two on ebay right now (search for "monogram big boy").   The thing has also been re-released (apparantly - I assume they are from the same dies) as a Revell model.  There are twelve on ebay right now (search for "revell big boy").   I have one or two of the Monogram kits around somewhere unless I have given them away.  I felt they were actually pretty good.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: dspritke@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 4:40 AM Subject: [vintageHO] RE: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?   Wasn't the Monogram plastic model a kit for the Big Boy loco that sold for 10 bucks at the time?   I'm not a UP guy, but I think the Big Boy and the Challenger shared the same 14 wheel tender design, no?   Anyway, the Monogram kit has a nicely detailed tender included, and it's use for the Bowser Challenger is quite feasible. Just have to modify for electrical pick up.  Someone, I'd bet Bowser, made the supplemental kit to provide electrical pick for the plastic Monogram tender.  If memory still working, the conversion kit sold for about 15 bucks and I believe it had metal wheel sets and some sort of metal axle bearings, etc.   Although I believe it to be incorrect for UP, as a stand in especially for a private road, I'd use the Bowser SP Vanderbuilt tender if I somehow had obtained one, or could get one easily.        I think finding the Monogram Big Boy kit so as to salvage the tender may be a tough but rewarding search.   Finding the 14 wheel tender alone, even with or without the conversion kit, may be an even tougher, hit or miss proposition.  I'd search Ebay using all the appropriate search terms I could think of, but I think your best opportunity for locating one is at the larger flea market and the big train shows where lots of used stuff is sold.  Good Luck, Dave Spritke

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21880	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

The author's name was Bob Darwin, and the articles appeared in 1961 and 1962.  John B. Allyn From: "Fred Holladay" <fvh2@...> To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageho@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:37:55 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Bowser Challenger:  ideas for correct tender?            The  Bowser  SP1 Semi-Vanderbilt tender is the one intended for this beast.  Lots of them on E-bay all the time.  The allusion to a Monogram tender means that yours is most likely last run. It's a Centipede type, 14 wheel tender, common to challengers, FEFs and other large UP and SP engines.           Cal Scale, now part of the Bowser Empire, did casting sets in the late 60's for this engine.  There was a series of articles on super-detailing this engine in Model Railroader. Wish I could remember the author's name.  Should be easy enough to track down if you want to follow that path, and would allow you inventory the parts you have.         Good Luck       Fred Holladay     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: dbtrail@... Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2014 20:12:54 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?   I guess I figured we needed something to talk about. A while back I picked up a partially completed Bowser Challenger. No tender, (which I guess is the way they sold them) All running gear is finished; motor attached, which appears to be the DC-71 motor. Motor shaft gear drives rear engine; drive line with Delron, (?), couplings drive the front, which has dual drive shaft bearings. From what I see on HOSeeker, I'm thinking this is the latest, or next-to latest version. Also looks to have a batch of nice castings, many of which are brass. Likely a super detail kit or some portion thereof. So my question is: where to look for a tender??? Moreover, What tender would be the best buy? (Bowser I suppose might be the more correct) I've never been fond of the Centipede style, and those I see on ebay run a bit expensive. I've also seen husky Vanderbuilt tenders in photos, and those appeal to me more, IF prototypical. Thoughts? Finally, the Bowser literature specifies their tender to be a Monogram Model 1600, 1601 or 1602. I know Monogram made an inexpensive plastic snap-together Challenger kit......Bowser can't mean THAT tender can they? If so, that must be where the, "wheel kit," I hear allusions about comes in. But a Bowser metal locomotive and a plastic tender?? Can someone clarify me on these points? I've already read where folks will buy the Rivarossi Challenger before the Bowser because, "it has better detail." But then, ........we're Vintage, aren't we? Dennis in E WA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21881	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

 David Spritke was right about the tender electrical kit and suspecting Bowser made it.   I found a Bowser advertisement in the May, 1985 Model Railroader for the tender electrical pickup:   Here is all of the text:   ****************************************** HO 14 WHEEL TENDER ELECTRICAL PICKUP KIT   $14.95  #150681 Electrical pick-up Kit for 14 Wheel Tender   This kit adapts the Monogram Models' 15 wheel tender for operation behind your BOWSER Challenger and Big Boy.  The tender gody is found in Monogram Models' Big Boy Kits #1600, 1601, & 1602.  The Pickup Kit includes instructions with drawings, brass wheels with needlepoint axles for front truck, and brass wheels and bearings for rear truck, coupler and pocket, electric wireless drawbar, and weights.  The only tools required are knife, file, screwdriver, #43, and #49 drills. ******************************************   This is part of the middle section of a full page ad also featuring the Challenger itself, now priced at $129.95.   Across the top of the add is "O and O-27 HAND PAINTED FIGURES" and across the bottom of the ad "N, HO, S, O (O Scale or Lionel), LGB TURNTABLES".   The July 1985 full page add devotes about the bottom third to this with two nice photos, one of the underside of the tender.  The description is the same with this added:  "Bowser stocks Monogram Models Big Boy Kits at $100.00 list."  That price has to be a typo !?   Also briefly mentioned in a smaller ad for the Challenger in November 1986, March 1987, June 1988, January 1989, and May 1989 issues.   In November 1989, brief mention in a similar looking Bowser ad but now it is the UP BIG BOY 4-8-8-4.  Electrical pickup price is now $16.95.   In October, 1990, back to the Challenger add, but no prices at all for either engine or pickup kit.   In February, 1992, a little different looking Bowser Challenger ad also adding a Super Detail kit. $153.95  #100300 UP Challenger, Loco only, Kit $74.95  #100325 UP Challenger Super Detail kit $17.95  #150681 Electrical pickup it for Monogram Big Boy 14 wheel tender   In March, 1993 there is a Bowser "HO METAL TENDER KTIS" add listing only tenders and the pickup kit.  It didn't show up in my first searches because they describe it a little differently as "Electrification kit for Monogram 14-Wheel tender" priced at $17.95.   In March, 1996 there is a full page Bowser ad featuring hopper cars and some tenders and the "#150681 Electrification & Conversion for Monogram or Con Cor 14 Wheel Tender".  (I guess Con Cor re-ran the plastic Big Boys?)  Has a photo of the tender, but no bottom view this time.   In January 1985, "Standard Hobby Supply" lists the pickup kit for $11.99 and in most issues until April 1986.   In July, Oct, Nov 1993 and Feb, Mar, Apr 1994, Train World lists the part number as "BIG BOY TEND (NO BODY) AT $13.99.   Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec 2000 and Jan, Feb 2001 Train World has "150681 ELECTRIFICATION & CONVERSION FOR CON-COR BIG BOY  18.99".   Sep 2002 has a full page Bowser ad with quite a grab bag of things (but no engines or tenders) such as the Aero Train, Cal Scale parts, Korder Roundhouse (I think they mispelled "Korber"?), some "N" scale, and still hanging on was "#150681 Elect. & Conver. for ConCor BigBoy $24.95".   Also in that Sep 2002 advertisement is this interesting inset (here is the text):   **************************************** See What Bowser Can Do For You !!!!!!!!   Custom Decorate Cars - 200 minimum Custom Print on any product with our new 5 color computerized pad printer - 200 minimum Design, make molds, and produce parts (plastic & zinc) Do Secondar Operations (painting, decorating, drilling, tapping & assembly) Do CNC machining Centrifically Cast Pewter   Call Lee English at Bowswer for more information.   ****************************************   That seems to be where the trail ends for the electrical pickup (or "electrification") kit in the Model Railroader archive.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 5:08 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?    The Monogram Big Boy is easy to find and probably almost always available.  There are two on ebay right now (search for "monogram big boy").   The thing has also been re-released (apparantly - I assume they are from the same dies) as a Revell model.  There are twelve on ebay right now (search for "revell big boy").   I have one or two of the Monogram kits around somewhere unless I have given them away.  I felt they were actually pretty good.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: dspritke@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 4:40 AM Subject: [vintageHO] RE: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?   Wasn't the Monogram plastic model a kit for the Big Boy loco that sold for 10 bucks at the time?   I'm not a UP guy, but I think the Big Boy and the Challenger shared the same 14 wheel tender design, no?   Anyway, the Monogram kit has a nicely detailed tender included, and it's use for the Bowser Challenger is quite feasible. Just have to modify for electrical pick up.  Someone, I'd bet Bowser, made the supplemental kit to provide electrical pick for the plastic Monogram tender.  If memory still working, the conversion kit sold for about 15 bucks and I believe it had metal wheel sets and some sort of metal axle bearings, etc.   Although I believe it to be incorrect for UP, as a stand in especially for a private road, I'd use the Bowser SP Vanderbuilt tender if I somehow had obtained one, or could get one easily.        I think finding the Monogram Big Boy kit so as to salvage the tender may be a tough but rewarding search.   Finding the 14 wheel tender alone, even with or without the conversion kit, may be an even tougher, hit or miss proposition.  I'd search Ebay using all the appropriate search terms I could think of, but I think your best opportunity for locating one is at the larger flea market and the big train shows where lots of used stuff is sold.  Good Luck, Dave Spritke

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21882	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

The Bowser Vanderbilt tender seems to be the old Varney tender. Include that in your search as well. The monogram/revell centipede tender is a shell with truck mounting studs inside. The body has numerous cast on thick handrails all over it and will need a lot of time to carefully remove them. I think I'm right about the studs, it's been a long time since I built my Yellowstone version of that kit. I'm certain the Hudson static model is that way. You would be happier to build a tender from sheet styrene and finish it with better hand rails and urethane rivet or welding seam decals. The truck and large stationary many axle side frames on the tender are well done. Those are best as dressing for properly rolling model railroad wheels. You don't want to just plop functional wheelsets into them The scratchbuilt tender would be less work than the needed work on the static plastic kit tender. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2014, at 7:08 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:  The Monogram Big Boy is easy to find and probably almost always available.  There are two on ebay right now (search for "monogram big boy").   ........

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21883	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

Take a look at this variety of UP 4-6-6-4, first prototypes...  In the list of road numbers click on the road number to see photos.  These loco had the UP style tenders with two six wheel Buckeye trucks.  That's 12 wheels instead of 14 as with the pedestal style.  It appears that you could use the body for the 14 wheel to make a 12 wheel tender with two six wheel trucks.  Just another possibility for you. Click here  http://www.northeast.railfan.net/challenger.html If the link does not work do a Google search on UNION PACIFIC 4-6-6-4 and you will find several sites besides Wikipedia... Have fun... Don Staton in VA ========================================================================== On 2/14/2014 10:34 AM, Mike Bauers wrote:   The Bowser Vanderbilt tender seems to be the old Varney tender. Include that in your search as well. The monogram/revell centipede tender is a shell with truck mounting studs inside. The body has numerous cast on thick handrails all over it and will need a lot of time to carefully remove them. I think I'm right about the studs, it's been a long time since I built my Yellowstone version of that kit. I'm certain the Hudson static model is that way. You would be happier to build a tender from sheet styrene and finish it with better hand rails and urethane rivet or welding seam decals. The truck and large stationary many axle side frames on the tender are well done. Those are best as dressing for properly rolling model railroad wheels. You don't want to just plop functional wheelsets into them The scratchbuilt tender would be less work than the needed work on the static plastic kit tender. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Feb 14, 2014, at 7:08 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:  The Monogram Big Boy is easy to find and probably almost always available.  There are two on ebay right now (search for "monogram big boy").   ........

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21884	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

Attachments : Hello Dennis, I’ve built two of these, and rehabbed another.  They came with dual motors.  I’m interested in the single motor adaption to the front engine. Tender:  Brass (big bucks); Rivarossi; Monogram/Revell/(another one, I can’t remember), with these you buy Bowser’s electrification kit for it(not cheap, or if you’re good enough, assemble and build yourself.  There may be other sources, I don’t remember). As far as semi-Vanderbilt, if I remember correctly, the very first prototypes were delivered with that tender and a single stack on the engine. The plastic centipede makes into a very good model and has very sharp detail. At this point in time, earlier Rivarossi models would be vintage.  The Riv does have finer detailing, but with additional detail pieces, Bowser’s is an excellent model.  Believe it, or not, the plastic molding kit has the best detail of the three. I’m sure you’ve already been ;provided with this info. Already, since I get the digest email version. Denis       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Thompson Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:13 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?     I guess I figured we needed something to talk about. A while back I picked up a partially completed Bowser Challenger. No tender, (which I guess is the way they sold them) All running gear is finished; motor attached, which appears to be the DC-71 motor. Motor shaft gear drives rear engine; drive line with Delron, (?), couplings drive the front, which has dual drive shaft bearings. From what I see on HOSeeker, I'm thinking this is the latest, or next-to latest version. Also looks to have a batch of nice castings, many of which are brass. Likely a super detail kit or some portion thereof. So my question is: where to look for a tender??? Moreover, What tender would be the best buy? (Bowser I suppose might be the more correct) I've never been fond of the Centipede style, and those I see on ebay run a bit expensive. I've also seen husky Vanderbuilt tenders in photos, and those appeal to me more, IF prototypical. Thoughts? Finally, the Bowser literature specifies their tender to be a Monogram Model 1600, 1601 or 1602. I know Monogram made an inexpensive plastic snap-together Challenger kit......Bowser can't mean THAT tender can they? If so, that must be where the, "wheel kit," I hear allusions about comes in. But a Bowser metal locomotive and a plastic tender?? Can someone clarify me on these points? I've already read where folks will buy the Rivarossi Challenger before the Bowser because, "it has better detail." But then, ........we're Vintage, aren't we? Dennis in E WA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21885	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

Attachments : 100_0751.jpg 100_0750.jpg Attached are two photos of the Monogram/Revell tender for those who may not be familiar with it.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 10:35 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?     The Bowser Vanderbilt tender seems to be the old Varney tender. Include that in your search as well.   The monogram/revell centipede tender is a shell with truck mounting studs inside. The body has numerous cast on thick handrails all over it and will need a lot of time to carefully remove them. I think I'm right about the studs, it's been a long time since I built my Yellowstone version of that kit. I'm certain the Hudson static model is that way.   You would be happier to build a tender from sheet styrene and finish it with better hand rails and urethane rivet or welding seam decals.   The truck and large stationary many axle side frames on the tender are well done. Those are best as dressing for properly rolling model railroad wheels. You don't want to just plop functional wheelsets into them   The scratchbuilt tender would be less work than the needed work on the static plastic kit tender.   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone   On Feb 14, 2014, at 7:08 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:  The Monogram Big Boy is easy to find and probably almost always available.  There are two on ebay right now (search for "monogram big boy").   ........

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 21886	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

Thanks everyone. This is great stuff that I didn't know. The Challenger/Big Boy arena is one I've never really entered before. And, Mike, very interesting your connection between this and the old Varney tender. I'd already noticed they looked the same but was not yet willing to put words to my feeling. Looks like I have lots of ways to handle this. The semi-Vanderbuilt SP-1 visually appeals to me the most. I'll be away from my computer for a bit, but will catch up on further comments in a day or so. Dennis At 07:34 AM 2/14/2014, you wrote: >The Bowser Vanderbilt tender seems to be the old Varney tender. >Include that in your search as well. > >The monogram/revell centipede tender is a shell with truck mounting >studs inside. The body has numerous cast on thick handrails all over >it and will need a lot of time to carefully remove them. I think I'm >right about the studs, it's been a long time since I built my >Yellowstone version of that kit. I'm certain the Hudson static model >is that way. > >You would be happier to build a tender from sheet styrene and finish >it with better hand rails and urethane rivet or welding seam decals. > >The truck and large stationary many axle side frames on the tender >are well done. Those are best as dressing for properly rolling model >railroad wheels. You don't want to just plop functional wheelsets into them > >The scratchbuilt tender would be less work than the needed work on >the static plastic kit tender. > > >Mike Bauers >Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21887	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: MR archive dvd's

Can anyone suggest who should be contacted at Kalmbach to get improvements made of their various DVD magazine collections. I have a love-hate relationship with the MR 75-year archive. The content is great ......... But... I hate the way the display of the individual pages and the various listings of years jump out of control with the slightest twitch of my mouse. Once they start scrolling out of control I just have to sit and wait for them to stop scrolling so that I can try to get to where I want to be. Often that is getting back to where I was before the archive went out of control. Sit down to read a page and suddenly it's jumping several pages forward on it's own at a blinding speed. I haven't found a work-around for this. It makes using the archive a true pain. The search engine is, in general, crap. If I search for an article I have a print of, in my hand, the search engine too often can't find it by the article's title. If you do a word search for a key-term, the search engine includes all pages of ads that also have that word. You end up with hundreds of pages of useless ads that the search engine tags when all you want are the articles instead. It seems to be a 90-10 ratio of ads found to articles. Why can't we just search for articles as an option? If MR would sell a new index-search engine to the archive that is a more useable for their dvd's, I'd sure buy it. As the MR 75-year archive mis-behaves, I'm not about to buy any of their other magazine archives and have the same problems. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA > I didn't find any other article in Model Railroader about detailing one of these when searching for "bowser" or "4-6-6-4" or "challenger" in titles. > > There was an article series called "The Art of Superdetailing" in 1961-1962 by Bob Darwin. Parts 3 throught 5 are taking the detailing of a Tenshodo Big Boy to a rather extreme level. I remember that series well. > > Nov, 1961 Part 1 "The Art of Superdetailing" > Dec, 1961 Part 2 "Metalworking and Fastening Detail to Boilers" > Feb, 1962 Part 3 "Design of a Good Running Gear" > Mar, 1962 Part 4 "Superdetailing the Big Boy Superstructure" > Apr, 1962 Part 5 "Completing Big Boy's Detail" > > By the way, the Model Railroader archive searching is sometimes obtuse. For example, it didn't see "part 2" whether using either the key word phrase "Art of superdetailing" or author "Darwin". I had to find it by reading the contents page of the issues between parts 1 and 3. So perhaps there is some Bowser detailing article that the searches couldn't find. > > Chuck Kinzer >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21888	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

Hi Mike, This has been discussed ad-nauseum over the past few years in many Model Railroad forums.  Most folks say it is the vendor that Kalmbach used, but at this point, I cannot believe anything will be changed, because likely they punch out the total number of DVDs they plan on selling, and near as I can tell, they aren't selling that good, partly because of the issues you mentioned.  I suppose a letter to the Editor is the way to go, but probably it will be viewed as venting. Good luck and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 10:53:13 -0600 Subject: [vintageHO] MR archive dvd's   Can anyone suggest who should be contacted at Kalmbach to get improvements made of their various DVD magazine collections. I have a love-hate relationship with the MR 75-year archive. The content is great ......... But... I hate the way the display of the individual pages and the various listings of years jump out of control with the slightest twitch of my mouse. Once they start scrolling out of control I just have to sit and wait for them to stop scrolling so that I can try to get to where I want to be. Often that is getting back to where I was before the archive went out of control. Sit down to read a page and suddenly it's jumping several pages forward on it's own at a blinding speed. I haven't found a work-around for this. It makes using the archive a true pain. The search engine is, in general, crap. If I search for an article I have a print of, in my hand, the search engine too often can't find it by the article's title. If you do a word search for a key-term, the search engine includes all pages of ads that also have that word. You end up with hundreds of pages of useless ads that the search engine tags when all you want are the articles instead. It seems to be a 90-10 ratio of ads found to articles. Why can't we just search for articles as an option? If MR would sell a new index-search engine to the archive that is a more useable for their dvd's, I'd sure buy it. As the MR 75-year archive mis-behaves, I'm not about to buy any of their other magazine archives and have the same problems. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA > I didn't find any other article in Model Railroader about detailing one of these when searching for "bowser" or "4-6-6-4" or "challenger" in titles. > > There was an article series called "The Art of Superdetailing" in 1961-1962 by Bob Darwin. Parts 3 throught 5 are taking the detailing of a Tenshodo Big Boy to a rather extreme level. I remember that series well. > > Nov, 1961 Part 1 "The Art of Superdetailing" > Dec, 1961 Part 2 "Metalworking and Fastening Detail to Boilers" > Feb, 1962 Part 3 "Design of a Good Running Gear" > Mar, 1962 Part 4 "Superdetailing the Big Boy Superstructure" > Apr, 1962 Part 5 "Completing Big Boy's Detail" > > By the way, the Model Railroader archive searching is sometimes obtuse. For example, it didn't see "part 2" whether using either the key word phrase "Art of superdetailing" or author "Darwin". I had to find it by reading the contents page of the issues between parts 1 and 3. So perhaps there is some Bowser detailing article that the searches couldn't find. > > Chuck Kinzer >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21889	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

Dennis, It isn't vintage, but you might want to take a look at the Bachmann Spectrum line of tenders. Also, a short vande tender is used on the Bachmann UP 4-8-4 available in sets only but I'm sure someone has one that they aren't using or a loco that has been used and abused but the tender is OK. I have seen the SP1 made out of everything from wood to cast aluminium. The Bowser zamac seems the easiest to work with. Photos in UP archives show the 4-6-6-4 paired with both oil and coal tenders ranging from semi-vanderbilts to the "centipede" tenders like the Monogram or AHM/Rivarossi. Jake Bechtel Gadsden, AL

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21890	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

Ahhhh Mike,   I have no problem what-so-ever with scrolling wildly. It CAN jump from one page to the next if I scroll too far but that is hardly being out of control and besides it happens with all kinds of other multiple page files I have.  I would seriously doubt that this is a problem with the DVD set. Sounds more like a computer issue.   Yeah the search engine can give you literally hundreds of answers when searching for a word. For that reason I seldom use the “full text” option as I can usually find what I need without it.   So far as to who you would contact with your comments. Try the kahuna in charge of MR. It may help for any future dvd’s they may introduce. In would help at all with a three year old item that, as was stated, probably didn’t sell that well, at least not as well as expected. Why else would they have gone from direct sales to selling through dealers where they have to sell at discount?   Overall I am very happy with the set and I will get the Trains set also mainly as I have very fond memories of the magazine from back in the steam days.   Besides, they are the best MR and Trains DVD sets available.   John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 10:53 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] MR archive dvd's     Can anyone suggest who should be contacted at Kalmbach to get improvements made of their various DVD magazine collections. I have a love-hate relationship with the MR 75-year archive. The content is great ......... But... I hate the way the display of the individual pages and the various listings of years jump out of control with the slightest twitch of my mouse. Once they start scrolling out of control I just have to sit and wait for them to stop scrolling so that I can try to get to where I want to be. Often that is getting back to where I was before the archive went out of control. Sit down to read a page and suddenly it's jumping several pages forward on it's own at a blinding speed. I haven't found a work-around for this. It makes using the archive a true pain. The search engine is, in general, crap. If I search for an article I have a print of, in my hand, the search engine too often can't find it by the article's title. If you do a word search for a key-term, the search engine includes all pages of ads that also have that word. You end up with hundreds of pages of useless ads that the search engine tags when all you want are the articles instead. It seems to be a 90-10 ratio of ads found to articles. Why can't we just search for articles as an option? If MR would sell a new index-search engine to the archive that is a more useable for their dvd's, I'd sure buy it. As the MR 75-year archive mis-behaves, I'm not about to buy any of their other magazine archives and have the same problems. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA > I didn't find any other article in Model Railroader about detailing one of these when searching for "bowser" or "4-6-6-4" or "challenger" in titles. > > There was an article series called "The Art of Superdetailing" in 1961-1962 by Bob Darwin. Parts 3 throught 5 are taking the detailing of a Tenshodo Big Boy to a rather extreme level. I remember that series well. > > Nov, 1961 Part 1 "The Art of Superdetailing" > Dec, 1961 Part 2 "Metalworking and Fastening Detail to Boilers" > Feb, 1962 Part 3 "Design of a Good Running Gear" > Mar, 1962 Part 4 "Superdetailing the Big Boy Superstructure" > Apr, 1962 Part 5 "Completing Big Boy's Detail" > > By the way, the Model Railroader archive searching is sometimes obtuse. For example, it didn't see "part 2" whether using either the key word phrase "Art of superdetailing" or author "Darwin". I had to find it by reading the contents page of the issues between parts 1 and 3. So perhaps there is some Bowser detailing article that the searches couldn't find. > > Chuck Kinzer >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21891	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

I think I can handle it politely and with constructive criticism. It's a pita for them that it is keeping me from buying any of the other archive sets they keep releasing. It also is poor P.R. on their part, since whenever I'm asked about the archives, I tell of my experience with it. It certainly doesn't convince a potential buyer of any of the archive sets, to buy one. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:02 AM, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > > Hi Mike, > This has been discussed ad-nauseum over the past few years in many Model Railroad forums. Most folks say it is the vendor that Kalmbach used, but at this point, I cannot believe anything will be changed, because likely they punch out the total number of DVDs they plan on selling, and near as I can tell, they aren't selling that good, partly because of the issues you mentioned. I suppose a letter to the Editor is the way to go, but probably it will be viewed as venting. > Good luck and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC > > > From: mwbauers > > Can anyone suggest who should be contacted at Kalmbach to get improvements made of their various DVD magazine collections. > > I have a love-hate relationship with the MR 75-year archive. > > The content is great ......... But...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21892	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

I do need to try other mouse's with it. It does seem to be a problem with the possibly too sensitive Mac mouse I use. I may need to use a more basic mouse while using the archive. I've a couple of Logitech's I can try. I also want the Trains set. Once I have a working cure for the wild behavior of this archive, I'll feel good about getting the newer sets of other mags from Kalmbach. I hope to see the old Model Trains, Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette, and a RMC collection come out as well. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:49 AM, John Hagen wrote: > > > Ahhhh Mike, > > I have no problem what-so-ever with scrolling wildly. It CAN jump from one page to the next if I scroll too far but that is hardly being out of control and besides it happens with all kinds of other multiple page files I have. I would seriously doubt that this is a problem with the DVD set. Sounds more like a computer issue. > > Yeah the search engine can give you literally hundreds of answers when searching for a word. For that reason I seldom use the “full text” option as I can usually find what I need without it. > > So far as to who you would contact with your comments. Try the kahuna in charge of MR. It may help for any future dvd’s they may introduce. In would help at all with a three year old item that, as was stated, probably didn’t sell that well, at least not as well as expected. Why else would they have gone from direct sales to selling through dealers where they have to sell at discount? > > Overall I am very happy with the set and I will get the Trains set also mainly as I have very fond memories of the magazine from back in the steam days. > > Besides, they are the best MR and Trains DVD sets available. > > > From: Mike Bauers > > Can anyone suggest who should be contacted at Kalmbach to get improvements made of their various DVD magazine collections. > > I have a love-hate relationship with the MR 75-year archive. > > The content is great ......... But...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21893	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

Hi John, I just tried a basic Logitech USB mouse on the MR archive and it put it under proper control. I assume that the built-in gesture features of the current Bluetooth Mac mouse is way too sensitive for the MR archive. The archive behaves well-enough even with the use of the scroll wheel on the basic mouse. It is a pita that the Mac mouse plays well with everything else on the computer. The cynical side of this, is that I have to dumb down my computer set-up to use the MR archive sets. ;^) But other than a minor irritation, that's still worthwhile to better use the archive. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:49 AM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > > Ahhhh Mike, > > I have no problem what-so-ever with scrolling wildly. It CAN jump from one page to the next if I scroll too far but that is hardly being out of control and besides it happens with all kinds of other multiple page files I have. I would seriously doubt that this is a problem with the DVD set. Sounds more like a computer issue. > > Yeah the search engine can give you literally hundreds of answers when searching for a word. For that reason I seldom use the “full text” option as I can usually find what I need without it. ..............

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21894	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

I suspect that MR will not do any further work on this particular archive, or any of the others they have released (and I have them, too).   However, they are surely aware of the blowback and, I suspect, have uttered a few choice words when trying to use the archive themselves at the Kalmbach office.   I suspect there is no deliniation between article body text and advertisement text because the system just searches all text that it is able to read, or none at all.  I'm sure this is all automatic (and I notice it can't read certain things such as if an advertiser's name is in script, further supporting that this is all automatic.)  The titles and authors are the exception and they may have had to do some manual work to make that happen.  It would be onerous to try and flag ads and articles seperately and I wouldn't expect that sort of effort on anybody's part.   It also can't handle special added pages (such as page 33a and page 33b or some full page added in advertisement after the magazine pagination was set) and just assigns page numbers starting with "1" and increments for each physical page found.  At least they warn you about that.   If you compare this to the online search of various model railroad magazines where you get to search only by titles and authors, it is really a big step up, warts and all.  This archive is the only way I could have come up with the many Bowser tender pickup references I could cite - and it didn't take all that long.   I consider the scrolling of the main page clumsy, to say the least and the searching sometimes good, sometimes iffy.  But all in all, it is a treat to get at this vast amount of information, usually without too much difficulty.  And it let me donate a vast number of magazines to the local hobby shop and free up needed shelf space.  (By the way, it is VERY tedious to try and search for something in hundreds of physical magazines.   Perhaps the next archive offering they make will have a little better performing interface.  Until then, I wouldn't throw out a significant baby with just a little dirty bathwater.   Chuck Kinzer ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MR archive dvd's Hi John, I just tried a basic Logitech USB mouse on the MR archive and it put it under proper control. I assume that the built-in gesture features of the current Bluetooth Mac mouse is way too sensitive for the MR archive. The archive behaves well-enough even with the use of the scroll wheel on the basic mouse. It is a pita that the Mac mouse plays well with everything else on the computer. The cynical side of this, is that I have to dumb down my computer set-up to use the MR archive sets. ;^) But other than a minor irritation, that's still worthwhile to better use the archive. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Feb 14, 2014, at 11:49 AM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > > Ahhhh Mike, >  > I have no problem what-so-ever with scrolling wildly. It CAN jump from one page to the next if I scroll too far but that is hardly being out of control and besides it happens with all kinds of other multiple page files I have.  I would seriously doubt that this is a problem with the DVD set. Sounds more like a computer issue. >  > Yeah the search engine can give you literally hundreds of answers when searching for a word. For that reason I seldom use the “full text” option as I can usually find what I need without it. .............. ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21895	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

As they say; “Third time’s a charm” and this was the first.   And really as a first effort ……… how well did your first craftsman type kit turn out? Believe me this project was way more involved than that 50’s era Silver Streak reefer.   You know I applaud any effort to preserve history even though it may be a tad bit of a clunky effort. We learns by are mistakes and it gits better evenly.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ckinzer@... Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 2:45 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MR archive dvd's     I suspect that MR will not do any further work on this particular archive, or any of the others they have released (and I have them, too).   However, they are surely aware of the blowback and, I suspect, have uttered a few choice words when trying to use the archive themselves at the Kalmbach office.   I suspect there is no deliniation between article body text and advertisement text because the system just searches all text that it is able to read, or none at all.  I'm sure this is all automatic (and I notice it can't read certain things such as if an advertiser's name is in script, further supporting that this is all automatic.)  The titles and authors are the exception and they may have had to do some manual work to make that happen.  It would be onerous to try and flag ads and articles seperately and I wouldn't expect that sort of effort on anybody's part.   It also can't handle special added pages (such as page 33a and page 33b or some full page added in advertisement after the magazine pagination was set) and just assigns page numbers starting with "1" and increments for each physical page found.  At least they warn you about that.   If you compare this to the online search of various model railroad magazines where you get to search only by titles and authors, it is really a big step up, warts and all.  This archive is the only way I could have come up with the many Bowser tender pickup references I could cite - and it didn't take all that long.   I consider the scrolling of the main page clumsy, to say the least and the searching sometimes good, sometimes iffy.  But all in all, it is a treat to get at this vast amount of information, usually without too much difficulty.  And it let me donate a vast number of magazines to the local hobby shop and free up needed shelf space.  (By the way, it is VERY tedious to try and search for something in hundreds of physical magazines.   Perhaps the next archive offering they make will have a little better performing interface.  Until then, I wouldn't throw out a significant baby with just a little dirty bathwater.   Chuck Kinzer Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (25) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21896	From: trainliker	Date: 2/14/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?

Attachments : Varney tender.JPG Kemtron tender.JPG Bowser tender.JPG The Bowser and Varney tenders are very different.  And I think the Varney doesn't follow a particular prototype, although it has a nice "look" to it, especially behind the Varney Berkshire (IMHO).   The most obvious difference is that the Bowser has the same cross section the entire length.  The Varney is more cylindrical aft of the oil bunker area   Bowser:  3 water hatches.  Varney:  4 water hatches   Bowser:  2 oil fills.  Varney:  1 oil fill.   The shape and implied detail is very different on the tender fronts.   I have tried to attach some photos mined from the MR archives, including, for good measure, the exquisite Kemtron offering (they show up on ebay regularly):   Current ebay item 321319708808 is a Kemtron tender with bidding at about $70 so far.   Current ebay item 261395046427 is a Bowser Challenger with Kemtron tender all finished and painted.  Pretty good looking work.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Thompson To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 14, 2014 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender?   Thanks everyone. This is great stuff that I didn't know. The Challenger/Big Boy arena is one I've never really entered before. And, Mike, very interesting your connection between this and the old Varney tender. I'd already noticed they looked the same but was not yet willing to put words to my feeling. Looks like I have lots of ways to handle this. The semi-Vanderbuilt SP-1 visually appeals to me the most. I'll be away from my computer for a bit, but will catch up on further comments in a day or so. Dennis At 07:34 AM 2/14/2014, you wrote: >The Bowser Vanderbilt tender seems to be the old Varney tender. >Include that in your search as well. > >The monogram/revell centipede tender is a shell with truck mounting >studs inside. The body has numerous cast on thick handrails all over >it and will need a lot of time to carefully remove them. I think I'm >right about the studs, it's been a long time since I built my >Yellowstone version of that kit. I'm certain the Hudson static model >is that way. > >You would be happier to build a tender from sheet styrene and finish >it with better hand rails and urethane rivet or welding seam decals. > >The truck and large stationary many axle side frames on the tender >are well done. Those are best as dressing for properly rolling model >railroad wheels. You don't want to just plop functional wheelsets into them > >The scratchbuilt tender would be less work than the needed work on >the static plastic kit tender. > > >Mike Bauers >Sent from my iPhone

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 21897	From: Alfred Galli	Date: 2/15/2014
Subject: Brass 4-4-0 for sale

I have a very clean Far East Distributers #4401 brass 4-4-0 for sale.  In the original box with inner foam. This is a sharp engine. Al Galli $125 plus actual cost of shipping

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21898	From: Alfred Galli	Date: 2/15/2014
Subject: Brass Fujiyama A&LM 4-6-0

I have a Fujiyama A&LM 4-6-0  Brass engine for sale in the original box.  The inner foam was discarded and the engine and tender have oxidation.  Cleaned up it would be an outstanding engine. $190 plus shipping at actual cost. Al Galli

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21899	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 2/15/2014
Subject: Fwd: Riding The Rails Of The Lone Ranger

Check out The Lone Ranger - Riding The Rails Of The Lone Ranger - Behind the   Click here: The Lone Ranger - Riding The Rails Of The Lone Ranger - Behind the Scenes - YouTube   Movie production - behind the scenes.   Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21900	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/15/2014
Subject: Today's Finds At The Train Show

I found half a dozen golden (or moldy) oldies to add to the boxes full of unbuilt stuff at today's Greater Houston Train Show, sponsored by the San Jacinto Model RR Club. First was a red Central Valley caboose, built up and with the original CV trucks but in need of some touch up and minor restoration. Still, the CV trucks alone were worth the $5 price tag. Got a Silver Streak by Walthers Hart gondola kit. Looks pristine and a steal at $3. The sides are pre-painted for MKT. Found 2 Ulrich metal hopper kits. One is an offset sides hopper painted for MP with sprung metal trucks. The other is one of their operating triple hoppers painted for Rock Island, no trucks. This one is halfway assembled and the work looks well done. Both appear to have dodged the dreaded zinc rot that plagued some old metal kits so far. I found a Main Line Models box full of sticks that is supposed to build up into a 50' express reefer. The sides and ends are pre-painted for Railway Express Agency. Should be interesting. Finally there's another box of sticks from Suncoast Models that is supposed to build up into an ATSF Class BX-3 boxcar. This looks like a real doozy of a kit. No pre-painted sides here, but 2 sets of decals, apparently for original or modernized versions. Whoever was planning to build it appears to have added some additional detail parts to the kit - a pair of Walther sprung metal Andrews trucks, Detail Assoc. grab irons with NBW castings, and Utah Pacific brass cast grab irons. This one will take some work. Also my clinic on microcontrollers and servos for layout animation came off fairly well and had a full (small) room. -- Rick Jones "Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." -Oscar Wilde

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21901	From: erieberk	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

Chuck, I fully agree with you guys about Kalmbach's MR archive software not being especially user friendly. As for advertisements getting in the way of a continuous read of an article, I agree with you there too -- but if only this could be corrected, it's very often just some particular ads that we want to search for when there's often no articles on a product indicating when they were first introduced. I wouldn't want an MR archive omitting these ads, but there should have been a better way to index them, keeping them separate from the text.. Ray Wetzel </HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21902	From: erieberk	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Bowser Challenger: ideas for correct tender? [3 Attachm...

A major difference between the Bowser and Varney Vanderbilt tenders -- without even going into any details -- is that the Varney tender is much longer. One needn't even have to check them side by side, to see this difference as it was always evident from the time they were both manufactured over 60 or more years ago; quite easily remembered when confronted with this very obvious difference for so long. As for the materials Bowser's SP-1 were made of, I believe it was their very first ones in the early '50's that had the body made out of maple wood. Once past that era, they were all zamac. Varney's Vandie was of cast aluminum using the same original dies that Harry J. Garrett & Co./ Adams & Sons used in producing the cast bronze version of this tender. A discussion here a good number of years ago suggested that Adam's & Sons may well have produced Varney's aluminum Vanderbilt tenders for them. While Bowser recommended using their SP-1 Vanderbilt tender (in addition to using the Monogram Centipede), behind their Challenger, owing to the longer Varney version, this one would appear more appealing. Bowser's SP-1 with their Challenger just looks out of balance, like being too small for this size engine. Kemtron also made a formed brass Vanderbilt tender kit, that would be more in proportion with the articulated loco. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21903	From: erieberk	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

Mike, Good to see a change in mouses (mice? - LOL) cured some of your scrolling problems. You might want to just try using the Up and Down Arrow tabs/keys too, as I find them to scroll much more slowly. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21904	From: erieberk	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Nice finds Rick. The Suncoast Sante Fe car builds up into a real nice looking model, but it does take some time and patience. One thing that's a big plus with finding goodies at train shows is that there's no automatic shipping fees attached to them, to get them to you. You can get a $4 kit for $4 -- not $10, and . . . you don't have to try to outbid the next guy on it. I really can't recall much, if any, zinc rot being found in rolling stock kits. It appears that most of it was confined to loco and tender models, and that could be spotty, not depending on any specific manufacturer, but much less on certain makes than others. I won't say that none of it ever occured with freight cars, as I recall Athearn hade some problems especially with a few of their tank car domes, and there were probably a few other manufacturers' problems which I just can't recall now. John English's tenders are notorious for rot. As we all know, a lot of this was due to poor (impure) metal used during the Korean War, but some goes back to pre-War models (like some of Varney's loco driver bearing blocks). Ray Wetzel.</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21905	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Hi Rick, Hopefully you are luckier than I.  I picked up a really nice looking Ulrich PRR hopper, with the sides still inside the plastic wrapping.  When I got it home and opened it, the really nice prepainted and prelettered sides completely fell apart with one of the worst cases of zinc rot I have ever seen.  These are not salvageable at all.  I was hoping they could be glued up well enough to make resin castings, but no such luck.  I only paid $5 for it, so no great loss.  A nice pair of trucks came with the kit, so all is not wasted.  I can't blame the seller, because the kit box was opened and I could look at all the parts.  I assumed since the sides were still in the original plastic they were ok.  I suspect this could be the result on any zamac parts, so we just need to be aware of this and carefully examine these before we purchase. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: r.t.jones@... Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 21:45:10 -0600 Subject: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I found half a dozen golden (or moldy) oldies to add to the boxes full of unbuilt stuff at today's Greater Houston Train Show, sponsored by the San Jacinto Model RR Club. First was a red Central Valley caboose, built up and with the original CV trucks but in need of some touch up and minor restoration. Still, the CV trucks alone were worth the $5 price tag. Got a Silver Streak by Walthers Hart gondola kit. Looks pristine and a steal at $3. The sides are pre-painted for MKT. Found 2 Ulrich metal hopper kits. One is an offset sides hopper painted for MP with sprung metal trucks. The other is one of their operating triple hoppers painted for Rock Island, no trucks. This one is halfway assembled and the work looks well done. Both appear to have dodged the dreaded zinc rot that plagued some old metal kits so far. I found a Main Line Models box full of sticks that is supposed to build up into a 50' express reefer. The sides and ends are pre-painted for Railway Express Agency. Should be interesting. Finally there's another box of sticks from Suncoast Models that is supposed to build up into an ATSF Class BX-3 boxcar. This looks like a real doozy of a kit. No pre-painted sides here, but 2 sets of decals, apparently for original or modernized versions. Whoever was planning to build it appears to have added some additional detail parts to the kit - a pair of Walther sprung metal Andrews trucks, Detail Assoc. grab irons with NBW castings, and Utah Pacific brass cast grab irons. This one will take some work. Also my clinic on microcontrollers and servos for layout animation came off fairly well and had a full (small) room. -- Rick Jones "Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." -Oscar Wilde

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21906	From: don_hud	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Hello Rick I enjoyed your clinic at the show yesterday.  I stopped at Micro Center after the show an picked up a OSEPP Uno for $19.99.  Now to figure out how to use it.  I have hit the Arduino and OSEPP websites and found some good info and some software downloads.  I'll probably try to see if I can control a few LED to start with and if that works out, then maybe I'll try a servo.  I have a bunch of both around to experiment with. Thanks for the good info at the show. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21907	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

On 2/16/2014 8:55 AM, erieberk@... wrote: > I really can't recall much, if any, zinc rot being found in rolling stock > kits. It appears that most of it was confined to loco and tender models, and > that could be spotty, not depending on any specific manufacturer, but much > less on certain makes than others. I won't say that none of it ever occured > with freight cars, as I recall Athearn hade some problems especially with a > few of their tank car domes, and there were probably a few other > manufacturers' problems which I just can't recall now. John English's tenders are > notorious for rot. As we all know, a lot of this was due to poor (impure) > metal used during the Korean War, but some goes back to pre-War models (like > some of Varney's loco driver bearing blocks). I've encountered zinc rot once or twice on Ulrich kits from the '60s or '70s. Not sure if I've ever seen it on Roundhouse. I passed on one long gondola kit that I saw at the show because the cast sides were noticeably bowed. Knowing how brittle those castings can get I didn't think I could straighten them without breaking them up. -- Rick Jones "You can lead a politician to office but you can't make him think." -Kinky Friedman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21908	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Attachments : Hello Vic, You’re giving up too easily. HA.  I once put an elbow through the painted on glass of a 1830 clock.  Chagrined, but not daunted, I picked every shard of the 12 X 12” glass, bought a piece of museum glass, and proceeded to glue the pieces onto it.  It was like working a jigsaw puzzle.   It actually looks good.  That’s what I’d try with your car sides, using your idea.  Start with a piece of Styrene, glue the pieces onto that, and then use as is to complete the kit, or do the casting at that point. ZAMAC was an improvement over white metal, developed to eliminate the ‘rot’ problem.  So, it’s doubtful that you have ZAMAC. Question:  Do you think you could make resin castings of simple gear hangers? Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 9:34 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Hi Rick, Hopefully you are luckier than I.  I picked up a really nice looking Ulrich PRR hopper, with the sides still inside the plastic wrapping.  When I got it home and opened it, the really nice prepainted and prelettered sides completely fell apart with one of the worst cases of zinc rot I have ever seen.  These are not salvageable at all.  I was hoping they could be glued up well enough to make resin castings, but no such luck.  I only paid $5 for it, so no great loss.  A nice pair of trucks came with the kit, so all is not wasted.  I can't blame the seller, because the kit box was opened and I could look at all the parts.  I assumed since the sides were still in the original plastic they were ok.  I suspect this could be the result on any zamac parts, so we just need to be aware of this and carefully examine these before we purchase. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: r.t.jones@... Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 21:45:10 -0600 Subject: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I found half a dozen golden (or moldy) oldies to add to the boxes full of unbuilt stuff at today's Greater Houston Train Show, sponsored by the San Jacinto Model RR Club. First was a red Central Valley caboose, built up and with the original CV trucks but in need of some touch up and minor restoration. Still, the CV trucks alone were worth the $5 price tag. Got a Silver Streak by Walthers Hart gondola kit. Looks pristine and a steal at $3. The sides are pre-painted for MKT. Found 2 Ulrich metal hopper kits. One is an offset sides hopper painted for MP with sprung metal trucks. The other is one of their operating triple hoppers painted for Rock Island, no trucks. This one is halfway assembled and the work looks well done. Both appear to have dodged the dreaded zinc rot that plagued some old metal kits so far. I found a Main Line Models box full of sticks that is supposed to build up into a 50' express reefer. The sides and ends are pre-painted for Railway Express Agency. Should be interesting. Finally there's another box of sticks from Suncoast Models that is supposed to build up into an ATSF Class BX-3 boxcar. This looks like a real doozy of a kit. No pre-painted sides here, but 2 sets of decals, apparently for original or modernized versions. Whoever was planning to build it appears to have added some additional detail parts to the kit - a pair of Walther sprung metal Andrews trucks, Detail Assoc. grab irons with NBW castings, and Utah Pacific brass cast grab irons. This one will take some work. Also my clinic on microcontrollers and servos for layout animation came off fairly well and had a full (small) room. -- Rick Jones "Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." -Oscar Wilde

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21909	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Attachments : Kinky can be humorous on occasion, but not when he’s running for office. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rick Jones Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 10:28 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     On 2/16/2014 8:55 AM, erieberk@... wrote: > I really can't recall much, if any, zinc rot being found in rolling stock > kits. It appears that most of it was confined to loco and tender models, and > that could be spotty, not depending on any specific manufacturer, but much > less on certain makes than others. I won't say that none of it ever occured > with freight cars, as I recall Athearn hade some problems especially with a > few of their tank car domes, and there were probably a few other > manufacturers' problems which I just can't recall now. John English's tenders are > notorious for rot. As we all know, a lot of this was due to poor (impure) > metal used during the Korean War, but some goes back to pre-War models (like > some of Varney's loco driver bearing blocks). I've encountered zinc rot once or twice on Ulrich kits from the '60s or '70s. Not sure if I've ever seen it on Roundhouse. I passed on one long gondola kit that I saw at the show because the cast sides were noticeably bowed. Knowing how brittle those castings can get I didn't think I could straighten them without breaking them up. -- Rick Jones "You can lead a politician to office but you can't make him think." -Kinky Friedman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21910	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: metal rot

Some 60s/early70s Rivarossi locos suffered terribly with Zamac rot in their trucks, I have fabricated replacements out of brass and/or copper strips and just filed them till they fitted, always hoping for the proper replacements but never finding any. RogerW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21911	From: asleepy60	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: For Sale - Old Time Flat Car Kit

Have one Gould Company 40 foot, 50 ton flat car kit for sale. It is complete and in original box. Asking $5.00 plus postage. If interested, please contact me offsite. Gabe Pompeo asleepy60@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21912	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Attachments :     Here is a photo of the Ulrich parts.  Zamac did have some problems in the late 1940s and early 1950's.  The Germans called it zinc rot and it was due to poorly made zinc at that time.  I have a Varney NW-2 pilot that just busted in half, and I hear almost all manufacturers had this problem at one time or another. Looking at the photo I attached, the lower parts may be salvageable to make a copy using resin.  The upper one is really badle deformed and bent into a dish shaped curve.  I would say the upper one is totally unusable.  The remainder  of the parts, including ends, frame, etc. are rock solid.  If I come across a train show find, I may be ok to use the rest of the kit. Regarding a "simple gear hanger" from resin?  I dunno, I doubt a resin Valve gear hanger would work very well at all.  It would ne a lot easier and stronger to fabricate one from brass. Regards, Vic Bitleris Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: avanti78@... Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 11:27:01 -0600 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Hello Vic, You’re giving up too easily. HA.  I once put an elbow through the painted on glass of a 1830 clock.  Chagrined, but not daunted, I picked every shard of the 12 X 12” glass, bought a piece of museum glass, and proceeded to glue the pieces onto it.  It was like working a jigsaw puzzle.   It actually looks good.  That’s what I’d try with your car sides, using your idea.  Start with a piece of Styrene, glue the pieces onto that, and then use as is to complete the kit, or do the casting at that point. ZAMAC was an improvement over white metal, developed to eliminate the ‘rot’ problem.  So, it’s doubtful that you have ZAMAC. Question:  Do you think you could make resin castings of simple gear hangers? Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 9:34 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Hi Rick, Hopefully you are luckier than I.  I picked up a really nice looking Ulrich PRR hopper, with the sides still inside the plastic wrapping.  When I got it home and opened it, the really nice prepainted and prelettered sides completely fell apart with one of the worst cases of zinc rot I have ever seen.  These are not salvageable at all.  I was hoping they could be glued up well enough to make resin castings, but no such luck.  I only paid $5 for it, so no great loss.  A nice pair of trucks came with the kit, so all is not wasted.  I can't blame the seller, because the kit box was opened and I could look at all the parts.  I assumed since the sides were still in the original plastic they were ok.  I suspect this could be the result on any zamac parts, so we just need to be aware of this and carefully examine these before we purchase. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: r.t.jones@... Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 21:45:10 -0600 Subject: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I found half a dozen golden (or moldy) oldies to add to the boxes full of unbuilt stuff at today's Greater Houston Train Show, sponsored by the San Jacinto Model RR Club. First was a red Central Valley caboose, built up and with the original CV trucks but in need of some touch up and minor restoration. Still, the CV trucks alone were worth the $5 price tag. Got a Silver Streak by Walthers Hart gondola kit. Looks pristine and a steal at $3. The sides are pre-painted for MKT. Found 2 Ulrich metal hopper kits. One is an offset sides hopper painted for MP with sprung metal trucks. The other is one of their operating triple hoppers painted for Rock Island, no trucks. This one is halfway assembled and the work looks well done. Both appear to have dodged the dreaded zinc rot that plagued some old metal kits so far. I found a Main Line Models box full of sticks that is supposed to build up into a 50' express reefer. The sides and ends are pre-painted for Railway Express Agency. Should be interesting. Finally there's another box of sticks from Suncoast Models that is supposed to build up into an ATSF Class BX-3 boxcar. This looks like a real doozy of a kit. No pre-painted sides here, but 2 sets of decals, apparently for original or modernized versions. Whoever was planning to build it appears to have added some additional detail parts to the kit - a pair of Walther sprung metal Andrews trucks, Detail Assoc. grab irons with NBW castings, and Utah Pacific brass cast grab irons. This one will take some work. Also my clinic on microcontrollers and servos for layout animation came off fairly well and had a full (small) room. -- Rick Jones "Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." -Oscar Wilde

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21913	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

On 2/16/2014 10:22 AM, don_hud@... wrote: > Hello Rick > > I enjoyed your clinic at the show yesterday. I stopped at Micro Center > after the show an picked up a OSEPP Uno for $19.99. Now to figure out > how to use it. I have hit the Arduino and OSEPP websites and found some > good info and some software downloads. I'll probably try to see if I > can control a few LED to start with and if that works out, then maybe > I'll try a servo. I have a bunch of both around to experiment with. > > Thanks for the good info at the show. Glad you enjoyed it. Good luck with your experimentation. -- Rick Jones The most destructive force in the Universe is gossip.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21914	From: william witte	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: metal rot

This may be of some use. http://www.rivarestore.com/rivarestore_order.php -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 2/16/14, Roger Whiffin <roger48_gb@...> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] metal rot To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 16, 2014, 12:41 PM   Some 60s/early70s Rivarossi locos suffered terribly with Zamac rot in their trucks, I have fabricated replacements out of brass and/or copper strips and just filed them till they fitted, always hoping for the proper replacements but never finding any. RogerW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21915	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/16/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Attachments : Hi Vic, Concerning the valve gear fabrication; the making of a hanger in brass may be ‘easier’ for you, but for a novice, like me, it sounds a lot more tool, knowledge, intensive, and more difficult to repeat.  At least with the casting your starting with the correct size & shape.  What about adding bushings in the areas of wear, such as the movement of valve guide rods? These comments are made from my ignorance of the casting craft. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 2:09 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show         Here is a photo of the Ulrich parts.  Zamac did have some problems in the late 1940s and early 1950's.  The Germans called it zinc rot and it was due to poorly made zinc at that time.  I have a Varney NW-2 pilot that just busted in half, and I hear almost all manufacturers had this problem at one time or another. Looking at the photo I attached, the lower parts may be salvageable to make a copy using resin.  The upper one is really badle deformed and bent into a dish shaped curve.  I would say the upper one is totally unusable.  The remainder  of the parts, including ends, frame, etc. are rock solid.  If I come across a train show find, I may be ok to use the rest of the kit. Regarding a "simple gear hanger" from resin?  I dunno, I doubt a resin Valve gear hanger would work very well at all.  It would ne a lot easier and stronger to fabricate one from brass. Regards, Vic Bitleris Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: avanti78@... Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 11:27:01 -0600 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Hello Vic, You’re giving up too easily. HA.  I once put an elbow through the painted on glass of a 1830 clock.  Chagrined, but not daunted, I picked every shard of the 12 X 12” glass, bought a piece of museum glass, and proceeded to glue the pieces onto it.  It was like working a jigsaw puzzle.   It actually looks good.  That’s what I’d try with your car sides, using your idea.  Start with a piece of Styrene, glue the pieces onto that, and then use as is to complete the kit, or do the casting at that point. ZAMAC was an improvement over white metal, developed to eliminate the ‘rot’ problem.  So, it’s doubtful that you have ZAMAC. Question:  Do you think you could make resin castings of simple gear hangers? Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2014 9:34 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Hi Rick, Hopefully you are luckier than I.  I picked up a really nice looking Ulrich PRR hopper, with the sides still inside the plastic wrapping.  When I got it home and opened it, the really nice prepainted and prelettered sides completely fell apart with one of the worst cases of zinc rot I have ever seen.  These are not salvageable at all.  I was hoping they could be glued up well enough to make resin castings, but no such luck.  I only paid $5 for it, so no great loss.  A nice pair of trucks came with the kit, so all is not wasted.  I can't blame the seller, because the kit box was opened and I could look at all the parts.  I assumed since the sides were still in the original plastic they were ok.  I suspect this could be the result on any zamac parts, so we just need to be aware of this and carefully examine these before we purchase. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: r.t.jones@... Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2014 21:45:10 -0600 Subject: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I found half a dozen golden (or moldy) oldies to add to the boxes full of unbuilt stuff at today's Greater Houston Train Show, sponsored by the San Jacinto Model RR Club. First was a red Central Valley caboose, built up and with the original CV trucks but in need of some touch up and minor restoration. Still, the CV trucks alone were worth the $5 price tag. Got a Silver Streak by Walthers Hart gondola kit. Looks pristine and a steal at $3. The sides are pre-painted for MKT. Found 2 Ulrich metal hopper kits. One is an offset sides hopper painted for MP with sprung metal trucks. The other is one of their operating triple hoppers painted for Rock Island, no trucks. This one is halfway assembled and the work looks well done. Both appear to have dodged the dreaded zinc rot that plagued some old metal kits so far. I found a Main Line Models box full of sticks that is supposed to build up into a 50' express reefer. The sides and ends are pre-painted for Railway Express Agency. Should be interesting. Finally there's another box of sticks from Suncoast Models that is supposed to build up into an ATSF Class BX-3 boxcar. This looks like a real doozy of a kit. No pre-painted sides here, but 2 sets of decals, apparently for original or modernized versions. Whoever was planning to build it appears to have added some additional detail parts to the kit - a pair of Walther sprung metal Andrews trucks, Detail Assoc. grab irons with NBW castings, and Utah Pacific brass cast grab irons. This one will take some work. Also my clinic on microcontrollers and servos for layout animation came off fairly well and had a full (small) room. -- Rick Jones "Children begin by loving their parents; after a time they judge them; rarely, if ever, do they forgive them." -Oscar Wilde

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21916	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: MR archive dvd's

On 17/02/14 2:59, erieberk@... wrote: > Mike, > > Good to see a change in mouses (mice? - LOL) cured some of your scrolling > problems. You might want to just try using the Up and Down Arrow tabs/keys > too, as I find them to scroll much more slowly. Using Win7, Firefox and a wheel mouse? Click the wheel once on the top right corner of your page. A circle image with two dots and a centre spot should appear. Move the mouse slowly down to scroll down. Making a big movement scrolls faster, and moving back up above the image will scroll the page upwards. I use this a lot, especially for scrolling list of auctions and the like.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21917	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Hi Vic, Sorry to hear about your bad luck on the Ulrich hopper buy. This is the first time I've ever heard of Ulrich having any problems with zinc rot. I have a complete collection of Ulrich and have never encountered anything like this, nor have any of my club members ever run into this problem with this manufacturer. It would seem to be extremely rare with Ulrich, but as Jim H. has said numerous times . . . "Never say never." Good to know that vintage HOers also need to be aware of this problem with this line of metal cars. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21918	From: ANTHONY Stanford	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: metal rot

Just as a slightly tangential comment to this thread you can get some useful replacement parts for early Rivarossi from http://www.rivarestore.com/rivarestore.php  - mainly Italian but some US outline parts listed. Just a happy customer of this site Cheers Tony Stanford On 16 February 2014 17:41, Roger Whiffin <roger48_gb@...> wrote:   Some 60s/early70s Rivarossi locos suffered terribly with Zamac rot in their trucks, I have fabricated replacements out of brass and/or copper strips and just filed them till they fitted, always hoping for the proper replacements but never finding any. RogerW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21919	From: erieberk	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Hi Rick, Noticed that you've run into zinc rot with Ulrich too. No Ulrich kits I've ever seen going back to when they were first introduced have ever had this problem. As the time element when most zamac casting problems had a lot to do with it, the problem was never just reserved to the Korean War era but can originate from virtually any time these metal castings were produced, I can only add that none of Walthers' additional road names to the Ulrich line they took over ever had this problem that I'm aware of, and again, I have Walthers' complete line of them too. You may recall earlier zinc rot discussions on here when it was brought out that some manufacturers used floor sweepings of zamac spillage when it also included anything else (dirt, etc.) you'd find on just about any floor. These sweepings were recycled in the melting pot to cast more parts, when any metals were hard to get (and likely more expensive) in wartime periods. This is not to say it can't happen, just as it happened with you and Vic, but I don't think it's at all nearly as prevalent in Ulrich as it is with other manufacturers. Of course. by the time Walthers started producing the Ulrich line, perhaps their metalurgy improved. That you've substantiated what Vic has already said definitely shows thatthis line needs careful inspection before buying. It may just be that zinc rot happens in degrees, as though within a set time-frame, with Ulrich's castings lasting longer than most others' before showing these signs. We know that these castings can appear flaw-less for decades and then for some unexplained reason start showing cracks and crumbling. This manufacturer's metal seems to hold up much longer than others but is apparently still not immune to this "disease." Your mention of the long gondola that you passed up brings a question as to how "long" you're talking about. If this was one of those 65' long mill gondolas, it was very likely a Railmaster kit. I've seen occasional bowing in the sides of this manufacturer also, just as you have. You probably did the right thing in passing it up, unless the bow wasn't thast excessive and you had a strong adhesive holding the sides to the wooden bottom. I wouldn't attempt trying to straighten out that bow with this manufacturer though, as their castings are "harder" than many others'. While I've never seen zinc rot in any MDC/Roundhouse metal car, I have seen more than an occasional bowing of their parts, including the sides, ends, floors and roofs. Mostly they're found intact, but this does show up in this manufacturer more than in most others. I need to add here also, that I have a complete line of every car Roundhouse produced, and have never seen zinc rot in anything they made -- but I've straightened probably at least a dozen or more of the various four parts of their cars I mentioned above. While Roundhouse castings may appear hard, they also appear to have just a tad more lead in them, resulting in them being just "soft" enough to straighten out if one is brave enough to attempt this -- with much care of course, and with taking your (extreme) time. While the unpainted parts (roof, floor and ends) can be replaced, straightening the painted and lettered sides can become a bit un-nerving, but can be done. I don't have all of MDC/Roundhouse's steam engines, and what I do have hasn't shown any zinc rot, but it's good to know it can happen here and should be checked for when buying a new acquisition. One thing I'd like to bring out her -- while not related to zinc rot -- is Globe's plastic stock car sides which can appear as somewhat shrunken and mis-shapened at times. I don't know if there's any explanation for that, especially when many still exist as pristine and unaffected. I haven't had any such problem with any of mine except for one I bought through eBay which I knew about before buying, but which came with a second kit -- a rare "One-Ten Models" box car kit I was after. I have seen this problem with Globe's Stock car sides at train meets, so I know it happens more than just once in a while. I'm guessing their plastic may have been the same a Varney's pre-War "Tenite" plastic used for certain parts and car kits. Ray Wetzel </HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21920	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: metal rot

Yep - I met the Rivarestore guys at a big modeling exhibition in Milan, Italy a couple of years back. Even helped with some of their translations and found some part numbers and more US variations for them. Hope they get round to the bits I am still looking for. RogerW From: ANTHONY Stanford <tony_stanford@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 17 February 2014, 11:17 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] metal rot   Just as a slightly tangential comment to this thread you can get some useful replacement parts for early Rivarossi from http://www.rivarestore.com/rivarestore.php  - mainly Italian but some US outline parts listed. Just a happy customer of this site Cheers Tony Stanford On 16 February 2014 17:41, Roger Whiffin <roger48_gb@...> wrote:   Some 60s/early70s Rivarossi locos suffered terribly with Zamac rot in their trucks, I have fabricated replacements out of brass and/or copper strips and just filed them till they fitted, always hoping for the proper replacements but never finding any. RogerW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21921	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Hi again Denis, I wasn't so much concerned about movement of the valve guide rods, the valve guide rods don't really move, not enough to worry about anyway.  I was more concerned about the lack of any inherent strength of the hanger itself.  All of the valve gear hangers I have seen are relatively thin and the resin has very little strength when it is that thin.  I suspect one stray hit or derailment would likely break it.  True, some companies such as Rivarossi and Mehano (not the best mechanically) have made some hangers in plastic, but they are thicker plastic and quite frankly prone to failure. Casting in resin is "relatively" easy, until you go to multi-part castings.  Here is a very good tutorial you may wish to review. http://trainlife.com/magazines/pages/112/8111/december-1990-page-1 Go to page 28.  This is a multi part article that starts in December of 1990 and finishes in February 1991.  All issues are free for the viewing at Train Life.  I tried to register, but could never get a confirmation, but apparently that doesn't matter as you are still allowed to view the magazines. Good luck and regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: avanti78@... Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2014 20:12:24 -0600 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Hi Vic, Concerning the valve gear fabrication; the making of a hanger in brass may be ‘easier’ for you, but for a novice, like me, it sounds a lot more tool, knowledge, intensive, and more difficult to repeat.  At least with the casting your starting with the correct size & shape.  What about adding bushings in the areas of wear, such as the movement of valve guide rods? These comments are made from my ignorance of the casting craft. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21922	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Train life (was todays finds etc)

Hi Vic Thanks for the link - I am looking at trying some castings as well RogerW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21923	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Brass 4-4-0 for sale

Hi, I'm interested in the 4-4-0. You may contact me either on the board or offline. Ken ohiocanal@... 44221

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21924	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Brass 4-4-0 for sale

I let this opne through, but (moderator hat on), When responding to for sale or wanted ads, please reply directly to the sender off list. Thank you. (Moderator hat off) Don On 2/17/2014 12:34 PM, wd8mjs@... wrote: Hi, I'm interested in the 4-4-0. You may contact me either on the board or offline. Ken ohiocanal@... 44221 -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21925	From: Rick Jones	Date: 2/17/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

On 2/17/2014 5:56 AM, erieberk@... wrote: > Your mention of the long gondola that you passed up brings a question as to > how "long" you're talking about. If this was one of those 65' long mill > gondolas, it was very likely a Railmaster kit. I've seen occasional bowing in > the sides of this manufacturer also, just as you have. You probably did > the right thing in passing it up, unless the bow wasn't thast excessive and > you had a strong adhesive holding the sides to the wooden bottom. I wouldn't > attempt trying to straighten out that bow with this manufacturer though, as > their castings are "harder" than many others'. It was one of the Ulrich composite gondolas with the cast sides. The bowing was enough that I didn't want to take a chance with it. I did break a casting on some kit some numbers of years back but was able to glue everything together and paint it such that the crack where it broke is barely noticeable. This was the kit I saw on Saturday with the bowed sides: http://www.hoseeker.net/Ulrich/Assembly%20Explosion%20Ulrich%20Gondola%20%20Composite.jpg -- Rick Jones You should not confuse your career with your life.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21926	From: erieberk	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Rick, Okay, yes Ulrich's composite gons are long also -- I believe, at 52'. Odd that they should be bowed as that's unusual for Ulrich, but it looks like just about any manufacturer's zamac castings may be affected. I wouldn't suggest trying to straighten an Ulrich side as their zamac was a bit harder than MDC's. I don't want to use the term "brittle," as the harder zamac compositions weren't prone to breakage, but the metal is more resistant to someone's trying to bend a warp in the opposite direction to straighten it. When forced beyond it's stress point, it just gives (breaks at it's weakest point) instead of giving in to bending at all. Pays to open every kit box your interested in at a train meet, to make a full inspection. Some dealers frown on opening the boxes because of the chance for losing some parts, but others encourage this knowing it will probably lead to a sale. Just don't drop any parts out of the boxes unknowingly when you buy them. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21927	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

I haven't seen any zincpest (this is one instance where the original German does justice to the plague) in years.  If I remember correctly. it is the result of tin and antimony (I think) getting into the zinc alloy.   I used to see it a lot in Roundhouse/MDC all metal kits and Cliff Line and early Central Valley trucks.  With the Roundhouse stuff it could be a flaw in the casting process, as I used to see chill marks on the flat castings)  I've got Ulrich kits of the same vintage as Ray's and Vic's (war emergency gons, two bay and three bay hoppers) and haven't had any problems so it may be batch-specific.  The problems seem to appear in "hard" zamac Ulrich cars and various trucks) that may be the giveaway. John B. Allyn From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 8:16:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Rick, Okay, yes Ulrich's composite gons are long also -- I believe, at 52'. Odd that they should be bowed as that's unusual for Ulrich, but it looks like just about any manufacturer's zamac castings may be affected. I wouldn't suggest trying to straighten an Ulrich side as their zamac was a bit harder than MDC's. I don't want to use the term "brittle," as the harder zamac compositions weren't prone to breakage, but the metal is more resistant to someone's trying to bend a warp in the opposite direction to straighten it. When forced beyond it's stress point, it just gives (breaks at it's weakest point) instead of giving in to bending at all. Pays to open every kit box your interested in at a train meet, to make a full inspection. Some dealers frown on opening the boxes because of the chance for losing some parts, but others encourage this knowing it will probably lead to a sale. Just don't drop any parts out of the boxes unknowingly when you buy them. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21928	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Help identify this 4-6-0

Attachments : DSCN8976.JPG I picked this up recently and can't find any manufacturers marks or country of origin. It has both trucks driven in the tender. Weird thing is, the trucks are fixed. I would like to find out who made it and hopefully if it was based on a prototype or generic. I have more pics that I can put in the photos section if need be.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21929	From: Glen Wasson	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0 [1 Attachment]

Attachments : Mon Dec @, 2013 009 (640x271).jpg .Tender drive prototype, no. I can't say about the engine itself. The wide brass electrical pickup for the tender wheels looks to be home made. Do you have more detail on the tender trucks? They could be a commercial drive system from time back, maybe the '60s. How tight a curve will it make? Do the wheels have slide movement like some steam models do to negotiate tight curves? It is a nice looking loco, suits my taste. I seem to like the colorful old timers, like me. Armchair     aka    Glen Wasson    http://armchairmodelbuilders101.com   The attachment is one I got somewhere on ebay, no pony trucks & empty tender.  I added the wood pile and water tank fill, cleaned, lubed and added knuckle couplers. It is running on You Tube in my name.  I am having fun. On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 2:01 PM, "ohiocanal@..." <ohiocanal@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from ohiocanal@... included below] I picked this up recently and can't find any manufacturers marks or country of origin. It has both trucks driven in the tender. Weird thing is, the trucks are fixed. I would like to find out who made it and hopefully if it was based on a prototype or generic. I have more pics that I can put in the photos section if need be.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21930	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0 [1 Attachment]

On 2/18/2014 3:28 PM, Glen Wasson wrote: .Tender drive prototype, no. I can't say about the engine itself. The wide brass electrical pickup for the tender wheels looks to be home made. Do you have more detail on the tender trucks? They could be a commercial drive system from time back, maybe the '60s. How tight a curve will it make? Do the wheels have slide movement like some steam models do to negotiate tight curves? It is a nice looking loco, suits my taste. I seem to like the colorful old timers, like me. Armchair     aka    Glen Wasson    http://armchairmodelbuilders101.com   The attachment is one I got somewhere on ebay, no pony trucks & empty tender.  I added the wood pile and water tank fill, cleaned, lubed and added knuckle couplers. It is running on You Tube in my name.  I am having fun. On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 2:01 PM, "ohiocanal@..." <ohiocanal@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from ohiocanal@... included below] I picked this up recently and can't find any manufacturers marks or country of origin. It has both trucks driven in the tender. Weird thing is, the trucks are fixed. I would like to find out who made it and hopefully if it was based on a prototype or generic. I have more pics that I can put in the photos section if need be. This one sure looks like the Tyco-Mantua "Rogers" 4-6-0. It was offered for many years in two versions, one with a straight stack as a coal burner, and one with a diamond stack as a wood burner. It first came out marked for the "C&FW railroad", as the "Petticoat Junction".  It's the Sierra railroad protoype used on the TV show, unusual because of the unequal driver axle spacing. The next incarnation was as their "centennial" locomotive in 1976. Then it was the "Chattanooga Choo Choo", then offered in many other versions from the mid 70's up to the end of Mantua.   https://www.google.com/search?q=mantua+4-6-0+rogers&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=u94DU_ugLYnlyQG2x4H4CA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=557 Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21931	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0

The picture originally posted looks like a Model Power engine.  They were imports, made by Frateschi.  http://tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/toptrain/G%20Class%20002.jpg  These have a tender drive and free wheeling drivers.  They were made in 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 versions, all other parts being the same.  They may still be available new.   The other picture is a Tyco Rogers (Sierra 3) ten-wheeler.  The road name "B.P,S.& D." is the fictional "Buffalo Pass, Scalplock and Defiance" featured in the TV show "Iron Horse" starring Dale Robertson.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Horse_(TV_series)   Tyco sold this set while the show was on the air.   Richard. -----Original Message----- From: Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Feb 18, 2014 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Help identify this 4-6-0 On 2/18/2014 3:28 PM, Glen Wasson wrote: .Tender drive prototype, no. I can't say about the engine itself. The wide brass electrical pickup for the tender wheels looks to be home made. Do you have more detail on the tender trucks? They could be a commercial drive system from time back, maybe the '60s. How tight a curve will it make? Do the wheels have slide movement like some steam models do to negotiate tight curves? It is a nice looking loco, suits my taste. I seem to like the colorful old timers, like me. Armchair     aka    Glen Wasson    http://armchairmodelbuilders101.com   The attachment is one I got somewhere on ebay, no pony trucks & empty tender.  I added the wood pile and water tank fill, cleaned, lubed and added knuckle couplers. It is running on You Tube in my name.  I am having fun. On Tuesday, February 18, 2014 2:01 PM, "ohiocanal@..." <ohiocanal@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from ohiocanal@... included below] I picked this up recently and can't find any manufacturers marks or country of origin. It has both trucks driven in the tender. Weird thing is, the trucks are fixed. I would like to find out who made it and hopefully if it was based on a prototype or generic. I have more pics that I can put in the photos section if need be. This one sure looks like the Tyco-Mantua "Rogers" 4-6-0. It was offered for many years in two versions, one with a straight stack as a coal burner, and one with a diamond stack as a wood burner. It first came out marked for the "C&FW railroad", as the "Petticoat Junction".  It's the Sierra railroad protoype used on the TV show, unusual because of the unequal driver axle spacing. The next incarnation was as their "centennial" locomotive in 1976. Then it was the "Chattanooga Choo Choo", then offered in many other versions from the mid 70's up to the end of Mantua.   https://www.google.com/search?q=mantua+4-6-0+rogers&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=u94DU_ugLYnlyQG2x4H4CA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=557 Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21932	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0

On 2/18/2014 5:04 PM, Richard Dipping wrote: The picture originally posted looks like a Model Power engine.  They were imports, made by Frateschi.  http://tycoforums.com/tyco/forum/uploaded/toptrain/G%20Class%20002.jpg  These have a tender drive and free wheeling drivers.  They were made in 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 versions, all other parts being the same.  They may still be available new.   The other picture is a Tyco Rogers (Sierra 3) ten-wheeler.  The road name "B.P,S.& D." is the fictional "Buffalo Pass, Scalplock and Defiance" featured in the TV show "Iron Horse" starring Dale Robertson.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Horse_(TV_series)   Tyco sold this set while the show was on the air.   Richard. That engine appeared in many TV shows and movies (you mentioned "Iron Horse", I mentioned "Petticoat junction" ) because the Sierra RR was convenient to the movie and filmmakers. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21933	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0

I added pictures in the Photos section under Grumps Pix. There you can see the tender detail. I haven't tried it on any small radius track yet.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21934	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0 [1 Attachment]

I like what you did with the tender. I'm eventually going to have to cut out the plastic wood from a couple of locos and replace it with real wood. I can overlook a lot of details, but the fake wood annoys me.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21935	From: ohiocanal	Date: 2/18/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0

Richard, sure looks like the beast. Thanks.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21936	From: Bruce Pryor	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Help identify this 4-6-0

Frateschi's web page: http://www.frateschi.com.br/site/index_eng.php?page=loco-tenwheeler_eng Bruce Pryor

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21937	From: erieberk	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show

Attachments :

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21938	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

John and Group,   You may be right, about the zinc alloy (zamak/zamac) being contaminated with tin and/or antimony since many model manufacturers didn't do their own castings, but relied on a metal casting company to do this work for them.  If the model manufacturer casted the parts themselves (and some did), there would be no tin or antimony on the premises and none could find there way into the zinc alloy.  But when these castings were jobbed out to companies that made castings of all types of alloys in their productions, it's easy to see how other metals can get included in this metal mixture -- especially, so if some of those companies used sweepings from the floor to reduce any waste (and reports are that this happened at least on occasion).  With different other metals unintentionally being included in the zamac castings at undetermined intervals, this would point to some batched being contaminated while others were completely pure of foreign metals.    You brought up the mention of the "original German," and to expand on this as concerns zamac, the term which many of you know indicates the various metals that go into this alloy, but the term originally used was "zamak," an acronym indicating zinc, aluminum, magnesium and kupfer (the German name for copper).  As you all know too, zinc is the major portion of this alloy, with aluminum -- of a more or less standard 4% of aluminum being the second metal, of largest content.  As there are five Types of zamac alloy, numbering 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7, they each had different mixtures of these other metals.  To compound that, each of Types of zamac have Codes indicating yet different other mixtures of these metals used in the five Types of zamac.     While aluminum was used with zinc in a "standard" proportion of 4%, that can vary between 3.5% and 4.3%.  Likewise, magnesium can vary between 0.3% and 0.6%; copper can vary between 0% and 3.5%, although a content of between 2.6% and 3.3% is most often used.  Occasionally with certain Codes, nickel will replace the copper.  These different mixtures were used to obtain different strengths and other properties of the alloy.  By this, you can see how some zamac had a higher quality right from the scratch.  We don't know which Type(s) of zamac the model manufacturers used, but it appear they did at least vary somewhat, and then, who's to know if and when a metal casting company contracted by these manufacturers substituted a lower grade zamac -- which wouldn't have become evident until 40 or 50 years later.   When zamac is not contaminated with other metals, it continues to hold up extremely well over time, after the New Jersey Zinc Company perfected its processing of zinc ore to produce a 99.99% pure metal.  Yes, this is the same N.J. Zinc that Ulrich used as a roadname for one of their General Service Gondolas.  Some of us NJ railfans (including myself) used to go out to Franklin and Ogdensburg NJ, to NJ Zinc's mines and photograph the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy which serviced them and brought the ore to Allentown, PA.  We also went out to N.J.'s Palmerton, PA refinery, which was served by the Central RR of PA (a subsidiary of the Central RR of NJ), and later, by the Lehigh Valley RR -- both which brought the ore from Allentown to Palmerton, where ultimately the Chestnut Ridge Rwy brought it to the smelters.  We were often invited into NJ Zinc's offices in both states on these trips and were explained the whole process of making zamac there, which was found to be really interesting.        Tin and antimony were both used together, with lead, to make type metal for the printing trade.  Not only did type foundries use this, but it was used as the casting alloy for Linotype machines; I used to work with it every day, as a printer.  Normally type foundries restricted themselves to only that product, so these metals couldn't have been used in conjunction with zamac at those locations, but then too, there were other model manufacturers (which may have jobbed out there castings needs) which may have been the source of metal contamination in zamac also being used there.  I believe Red Ball may have used such a similar lead alloy, possibly using a portion of one of both of those added metals (tin and/or antimony), albeit not using an actual type metal alloy.  Type metal has a certain hardness to it for strength and durability, while Red Ball's lead alloy is much softer although harder than lead.    Although it does appear that these problems were batch-specific, it also appears that they were era-oriented, as being more prevalent during certain periods when some metals were either unavailable or harder to obtain.  Just as during WW II, copper was more in demand by the defense department during the Korean War to make brass shell casing and the like.   Ray Wetzel   -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Cc: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 14:36:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I haven't seen any zincpest (this is one instance where the original German does justice to the plague) in years.  If I remember correctly. it is the result of tin and antimony (I think) getting into the zinc alloy.   I used to see it a lot in Roundhouse/MDC all metal kits and Cliff Line and early Central Valley trucks.  With the Roundhouse stuff it could be a flaw in the casting process, as I used to see chill marks on the flat castings)  I've got Ulrich kits of the same vintage as Ray's and Vic's (war emergency gons, two bay and three bay hoppers) and haven't had any problems so it may be batch-specific.  The problems seem to appear in "hard" zamac Ulrich cars and various trucks) that may be the giveaway. John B. Allyn From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 8:16:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Rick, Okay, yes Ulrich's composite gons are long also -- I believe, at 52'. Odd that they should be bowed as that's unusual for Ulrich, but it looks like just about any manufacturer's zamac castings may be affected. I wouldn't suggest trying to straighten an Ulrich side as their zamac was a bit harder than MDC's. I don't want to use the term "brittle," as the harder zamac compositions weren't prone to breakage, but the metal is more resistant to someone's trying to bend a warp in the opposite direction to straighten it. When forced beyond it's stress point, it just gives (breaks at it's weakest point) instead of giving in to bending at all. Pays to open every kit box your interested in at a train meet, to make a full inspection. Some dealers frown on opening the boxes because of the chance for losing some parts, but others encourage this knowing it will probably lead to a sale. Just don't drop any parts out of the boxe s unknowingly when you buy them. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21939	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Ray --   Great post!   With respect to Red Ball, I've got several of their kits.  The flat castings have saw marks on the back.  If I remember my high school industrial arts (and why don't kids have the benefit of this today?) correctly, type metal for big linotype castings is sawn to match the thickness of the surrounding type.  M. Dale Newton printed all of his card car sides, and the old legend was that he used his linotype machine to make castings.  This may be a manufacturing impossibility, but whatever metal he used it is softer -- "leadier" to coin a word -- than zamac.  It does hold detail beautifully, which, together with printing business, supports the type metal hypothesis, as type metal unlike most metals, expands upon cooling.    John B. Allyn From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:52:10 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show       John and Group,   You may be right, about the zinc alloy (zamak/zamac) being contaminated with tin and/or antimony since many model manufacturers didn't do their own castings, but relied on a metal casting company to do this work for them.  If the model manufacturer casted the parts themselves (and some did), there would be no tin or antimony on the premises and none could find there way into the zinc alloy.  But when these castings were jobbed out to companies that made castings of all types of alloys in their productions, it's easy to see how other metals can get included in this metal mixture -- especially, so if some of those companies used sweepings from the floor to reduce any waste (and reports are that this happened at least on occasion).  With different other metals unintentionally being included in the zamac castings at undetermined intervals, this would point to some batched being contaminated while others were completely pure of foreign metals.    You brought up the mention of the "original German," and to expand on this as concerns zamac, the term which many of you know indicates the various metals that go into this alloy, but the term originally used was "zamak," an acronym indicating zinc, aluminum, magnesium and kupfer (the German name for copper).  As you all know too, zinc is the major portion of this alloy, with aluminum -- of a more or less standard 4% of aluminum being the second metal, of largest content.  As there are five Types of zamac alloy, numbering 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7, they each had different mixtures of these other metals.  To compound that, each of Types of zamac have Codes indicating yet different other mixtures of these metals used in the five Types of zamac.     While aluminum was used with zinc in a "standard" proportion of 4%, that can vary between 3.5% and 4.3%.  Likewise, magnesium can vary between 0.3% and 0.6%; copper can vary between 0% and 3.5%, although a content of between 2.6% and 3.3% is most often used.  Occasionally with certain Codes, nickel will replace the copper.  These different mixtures were used to obtain different strengths and other properties of the alloy.  By this, you can see how some zamac had a higher quality right from the scratch.  We don't know which Type(s) of zamac the model manufacturers used, but it appear they did at least vary somewhat, and then, who's to know if and when a metal casting company contracted by these manufacturers substituted a lower grade zamac -- which wouldn't have become evident until 40 or 50 years later.   When zamac is not contaminated with other metals, it continues to hold up extremely well over time, after the New Jersey Zinc Company perfected its processing of zinc ore to produce a 99.99% pure metal.  Yes, this is the same N.J. Zinc that Ulrich used as a roadname for one of their General Service Gondolas.  Some of us NJ railfans (including myself) used to go out to Franklin and Ogdensburg NJ, to NJ Zinc's mines and photograph the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy which serviced them and brought the ore to Allentown, PA.  We also went out to N.J.'s Palmerton, PA refinery, which was served by the Central RR of PA (a subsidiary of the Central RR of NJ), and later, by the Lehigh Valley RR -- both which brought the ore from Allentown to Palmerton, where ultimately the Chestnut Ridge Rwy brought it to the smelters.  We were often invited into NJ Zinc's offices in both states on these trips and were explained the whole process of making zamac there, which was found to be really interesting.        Tin and antimony were both used together, with lead, to make type metal for the printing trade.  Not only did type foundries use this, but it was used as the casting alloy for Linotype machines; I used to work with it every day, as a printer.  Normally type foundries restricted themselves to only that product, so these metals couldn't have been used in conjunction with zamac at those locations, but then too, there were other model manufacturers (which may have jobbed out there castings needs) which may have been the source of metal contamination in zamac also being used there.  I believe Red Ball may have used such a similar lead alloy, possibly using a portion of one of both of those added metals (tin and/or antimony), albeit not using an actual type metal alloy.  Type metal has a certain hardness to it for strength and durability, while Red Ball's lead alloy is much softer although harder than lead.    Although it does appear that these problems were batch-specific, it also appears that they were era-oriented, as being more prevalent during certain periods when some metals were either unavailable or harder to obtain.  Just as during WW II, copper was more in demand by the defense department during the Korean War to make brass shell casing and the like.   Ray Wetzel   -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Cc: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 14:36:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I haven't seen any zincpest (this is one instance where the original German does justice to the plague) in years.  If I remember correctly. it is the result of tin and antimony (I think) getting into the zinc alloy.   I used to see it a lot in Roundhouse/MDC all metal kits and Cliff Line and early Central Valley trucks.  With the Roundhouse stuff it could be a flaw in the casting process, as I used to see chill marks on the flat castings)  I've got Ulrich kits of the same vintage as Ray's and Vic's (war emergency gons, two bay and three bay hoppers) and haven't had any problems so it may be batch-specific.  The problems seem to appear in "hard" zamac Ulrich cars and various trucks) that may be the giveaway. John B. Allyn From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 8:16:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Rick, Okay, yes Ulrich's composite gons are long also -- I believe, at 52'. Odd that they should be bowed as that's unusual for Ulrich, but it looks like just about any manufacturer's zamac castings may be affected. I wouldn't suggest trying to straighten an Ulrich side as their zamac was a bit harder than MDC's. I don't want to use the term "brittle," as the harder zamac compositions weren't prone to breakage, but the metal is more resistant to someone's trying to bend a warp in the opposite direction to straighten it. When forced beyond it's stress point, it just gives (breaks at it's weakest point) instead of giving in to bending at all. Pays to open every kit box your interested in at a train meet, to make a full inspection. Some dealers frown on opening the boxes because of the chance for losing some parts, but others encourage this knowing it will probably lead to a sale. Just don't drop any parts out of the boxe s unknowingly when you buy them. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21940	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Don Stromberg of Cary Locomotive Works used a lead antimony alloy that was softer than “Zamac.” It was easy to work with and took detail very well. When Bowser purchased the line they used their metal for casting the Cary line. It was very hard, hard to drill and weighed less. Of course the modeler probably wasn’t as likely to ingest any lead filings/shavings but I preferred Don’s castings.   Now this is somewhat divorced from the zinc or zamac rot situation as the lead antimony casting did not suffer from the problem. What brought this to my mind (or what remains of what I laughing refer to as my mind) in the discussion of type metal. It sounds to me that Don’s alloy may have been closely related. But then I no metallurgist.   John Hagen     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john.allyn@... Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 1:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Ray --   Great post!   With respect to Red Ball, I've got several of their kits.  The flat castings have saw marks on the back.  If I remember my high school industrial arts (and why don't kids have the benefit of this today?) correctly, type metal for big linotype castings is sawn to match the thickness of the surrounding type.  M. Dale Newton printed all of his card car sides, and the old legend was that he used his linotype machine to make castings.  This may be a manufacturing impossibility, but whatever metal he used it is softer -- "leadier" to coin a word -- than zamac.  It does hold detail beautifully, which, together with printing business, supports the type metal hypothesis, as type metal unlike most metals, expands upon cooling.    John B. Allyn   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (23) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 9 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21941	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

On 2/19/2014 3:27 PM, John Hagen wrote: Don Stromberg of Cary Locomotive Works used a lead antimony alloy that was softer than “Zamac.” It was easy to work with and took detail very well. When Bowser purchased the line they used their metal for casting the Cary line. It was very hard, hard to drill and weighed less. Of course the modeler probably wasn’t as likely to ingest any lead filings/shavings but I preferred Don’s castings.   Now this is somewhat divorced from the zinc or zamac rot situation as the lead antimony casting did not suffer from the problem. What brought this to my mind (or what remains of what I laughing refer to as my mind) in the discussion of type metal. It sounds to me that Don’s alloy may have been closely related. But then I no metallurgist.   John Hagen There was one down side to the Cary shells.  John, I'm sure you remember the yellow and white FT's and F3's on the old Beer City Lines.  First one I painted I tried to bake the paint with my old "sun Gun" from the movie camera.  I came back 15 minutes later to find a big hole MELTED in the side of an FTA. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21942	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Attachments : John, Are we not wound up in this metal alloy discussion? I have had later Bowser castings that were difficult to drill, but recently received a lead PL casting that the bit went through like butter. Speaking of that, I have a T-1 casting that seems different.  The seller thought it was a Cary due to the sharp casted details & general shininess of the casting.   Knowing that Cary did not do a T-1, I discounted that guess.  But, there is a difference in the casting.  It is thicker, heavier, and shinier, and doesn’t look like my other Bowser/PL boilers .  Denis     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 3:28 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Don Stromberg of Cary Locomotive Works used a lead antimony alloy that was softer than “Zamac.” It was easy to work with and took detail very well. When Bowser purchased the line they used their metal for casting the Cary line. It was very hard, hard to drill and weighed less. Of course the modeler probably wasn’t as likely to ingest any lead filings/shavings but I preferred Don’s castings.   Now this is somewhat divorced from the zinc or zamac rot situation as the lead antimony casting did not suffer from the problem. What brought this to my mind (or what remains of what I laughing refer to as my mind) in the discussion of type metal. It sounds to me that Don’s alloy may have been closely related. But then I no metallurgist.   John Hagen     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john.allyn@... Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 1:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Ray --   Great post!   With respect to Red Ball, I've got several of their kits.  The flat castings have saw marks on the back.  If I remember my high school industrial arts (and why don't kids have the benefit of this today?) correctly, type metal for big linotype castings is sawn to match the thickness of the surrounding type.  M. Dale Newton printed all of his card car sides, and the old legend was that he used his linotype machine to make castings.  This may be a manufacturing impossibility, but whatever metal he used it is softer -- "leadier" to coin a word -- than zamac.  It does hold detail beautifully, which, together with printing business, supports the type metal hypothesis, as type metal unlike most metals, expands upon cooling.    John B. Allyn   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (23) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 9 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21943	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Yeah Don,   They were a bit touchy as regards heat.   That said they were also solderable if one was careful. I soldered lead antimony Cary shells many times, especially when building the two RS-1’s using S-2 shells.   Of recent I have soldered normal, plain old “white metal” (whatever that is) when building 1/24 police cars. Some customers wanted “clean tops” which required filling in the holes in the roof for light bar mounting. But nowadays there are solders that work for that. I’d have to dig mine out to recall the products name but I believe there is more than one brand out there.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 7:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     There was one down side to the Cary shells.  John, I'm sure you remember the yellow and white FT's and F3's on the old Beer City Lines.  First one I painted I tried to bake the paint with my old "sun Gun" from the movie camera.  I came back 15 minutes later to find a big hole MELTED in the side of an FTA. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21944	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/19/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Attachments : Gee Denis, by the sound of your post maybe we aren’t.   I have never seen a lead PL casting or one of the T-1’s you described but I would not be surprised if any other manufacturer had played around with type metal or something similar.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denis Long Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 7:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show John, Are we not wound up in this metal alloy discussion? I have had later Bowser castings that were difficult to drill, but recently received a lead PL casting that the bit went through like butter. Speaking of that, I have a T-1 casting that seems different.  The seller thought it was a Cary due to the sharp casted details & general shininess of the casting.   Knowing that Cary did not do a T-1, I discounted that guess.  But, there is a difference in the casting.  It is thicker, heavier, and shinier, and doesn’t look like my other Bowser/PL boilers .  Denis  Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (23) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 9 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21945	From: oljoe	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Regarding Penn Line..... Apparently one of the owners at Penn Line was employed in the printing industry before Penn Line. As such he was able to secure large amounts of no longer viable metal print character items. He re-melted the metal and used the result to cast the many Penn Line metal items. When looking at the locos in the showcase along with the other offerings of the day from Varney, Mantua etc. there was a clear difference in the appearance of the castings from Penn Line. The castings were visibly more detailed, had a smooth appearance, and generally had a more finished look - all likely due to the high lead content of the re-melted print items. Even the plastic bodied diesels used the same metal to form their frames. I built most of the Penn Line locos as well as the Mantua offerings and found the Penn Line items to be much easier to finish and paint. I gleaned some of this information from an informative CD offered by one of the sons of the family that ran Penn Line. The CD is around somewhere but I can't lay my hands on it at this time. Joe O'Loughlin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21946	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Penn Line Castings

Attachments : John & Joe, This is interesting.  I’m going to photograph, side-by-side, the rather ugly lead PL & this other one I spoke of.  I’ll try get as much detail as I can in order to compare the two, along with what I can see firsthand.  I’ll have check as to whether I can attach, or make an album. Denis    From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of oljoe Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 4:55 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Regarding Penn Line..... Apparently one of the owners at Penn Line was employed in the printing industry before Penn Line. As such he was able to secure large amounts of no longer viable metal print character items. He re-melted the metal and used the result to cast the many Penn Line metal items. When looking at the locos in the showcase along with the other offerings of the day from Varney, Mantua etc. there was a clear difference in the appearance of the castings from Penn Line. The castings were visibly more detailed, had a smooth appearance, and generally had a more finished look - all likely due to the high lead content of the re-melted print items. Even the plastic bodied diesels used the same metal to form their frames. I built most of the Penn Line locos as well as the Mantua offerings and found the Penn Line items to be much easier to finish and paint. I gleaned some of this information from an informative CD offered by one of the sons of the family that ran Penn Line. The CD is around somewhere but I can't lay my hands on it at this time. Joe O'Loughlin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21947	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Never thought of using solder for filler.  Lately I've been using JB Weld. Don On 2/19/2014 10:32 PM, John Hagen wrote: Yeah Don,   They were a bit touchy as regards heat.   That said they were also solderable if one was careful. I soldered lead antimony Cary shells many times, especially when building the two RS-1’s using S-2 shells.   Of recent I have soldered normal, plain old “white metal” (whatever that is) when building 1/24 police cars. Some customers wanted “clean tops” which required filling in the holes in the roof for light bar mounting. But nowadays there are solders that work for that. I’d have to dig mine out to recall the products name but I believe there is more than one brand out there.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 7:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     There was one down side to the Cary shells.  John, I'm sure you remember the yellow and white FT's and F3's on the old Beer City Lines.  First one I painted I tried to bake the paint with my old "sun Gun" from the movie camera.  I came back 15 minutes later to find a big hole MELTED in the side of an FTA. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21948	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

I need to fill some unfortunate drilled holes in my zamac Tenshodo 0-6-0T.  What kind of solder do you use?  The conventional wisdom in the past was that zamac couldn't be soldered.  Of course that conventional wisdom dates to the early '60's so it probably isn't true any more.  John B. Allyn 3602 Hoods Hill Road Nashville TN 37215 615-298-2873 (H) 615-973-4280 (C) From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 8:46:16 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Never thought of using solder for filler.  Lately I've been using JB Weld. Don On 2/19/2014 10:32 PM, John Hagen wrote: Yeah Don,   They were a bit touchy as regards heat.   That said they were also solderable if one was careful. I soldered lead antimony Cary shells many times, especially when building the two RS-1’s using S-2 shells.   Of recent I have soldered normal, plain old “white metal” (whatever that is) when building 1/24 police cars. Some customers wanted “clean tops” which required filling in the holes in the roof for light bar mounting. But nowadays there are solders that work for that. I’d have to dig mine out to recall the products name but I believe there is more than one brand out there.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 7:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     There was one down side to the Cary shells.  John, I'm sure you remember the yellow and white FT's and F3's on the old Beer City Lines.  First one I painted I tried to bake the paint with my old "sun Gun" from the movie camera.  I came back 15 minutes later to find a big hole MELTED in the side of an FTA. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21949	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Hi John, I am under the impression that some new solders and fluxes might be able to solder zamac, but truthfully, everything I have ever heard is that it is not easy.  In my opinion, the best way to fill these holes is to get brass screws, maybe 00-90, drill and tap for these, then use TIX flux and solder and while heating the screw put some flux and solder on the screw while screwing it in.  Once cooled, you may cut off the remaining piece of screw and file it down.  This will not be coming out.  I use this technique when I need a solder point on the zamac.  Of course for soldering, I use bigger screws, like 2-56 or 4-40 brass screws. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 15:00:22 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I need to fill some unfortunate drilled holes in my zamac Tenshodo 0-6-0T.  What kind of solder do you use?  The conventional wisdom in the past was that zamac couldn't be soldered.  Of course that conventional wisdom dates to the early '60's so it probably isn't true any more.  John B. Allyn 3602 Hoods Hill Road Nashville TN 37215 615-298-2873 (H) 615-973-4280 (C) From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 8:46:16 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Never thought of using solder for filler.  Lately I've been using JB Weld. Don On 2/19/2014 10:32 PM, John Hagen wrote: Yeah Don,   They were a bit touchy as regards heat.   That said they were also solderable if one was careful. I soldered lead antimony Cary shells many times, especially when building the two RS-1’s using S-2 shells.   Of recent I have soldered normal, plain old “white metal” (whatever that is) when building 1/24 police cars. Some customers wanted “clean tops” which required filling in the holes in the roof for light bar mounting. But nowadays there are solders that work for that. I’d have to dig mine out to recall the products name but I believe there is more than one brand out there.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 7:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     There was one down side to the Cary shells.  John, I'm sure you remember the yellow and white FT's and F3's on the old Beer City Lines.  First one I painted I tried to bake the paint with my old "sun Gun" from the movie camera.  I came back 15 minutes later to find a big hole MELTED in the side of an FTA. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21950	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Don Stromberg's casting metal was similar to type metal in that the lead contained antimony, although it was lacking the tin that type metal contains.  As for the percentage of antimony used as compared to type metal, I have no idea, but it had to be more closely related to type metal than it was to zamac if only because it hadn't a trace of zinc in it.    As for an exceptionally hard metal, the alloy that Bowser used to make their later Cary correct-diameter (wide) PRR I-1 Decapod boiler, as an example, has to -- in my estimation -- be much harder (and lighter and thinner) than the steam engine boilers they produced before casting these last runs of Cary redesigned boilers.  Yes, Cary's boilers and diesel shells, before being bought out by Bowser were far from being light, neither were they especially hard, but I'm not sure if they were any heavier than Bowser's shells/boilers as Bowser's stuff was fairly hefty -- disregarding their last runs.  Possibly, except for the fact that it held detail extremely well, the quality of Bowser's engines being light and hard to drill (especially when considering their last runs) may be seen as drawbacks and with engines, we prefer them to weigh more (up to a point) rather than less, for added tractive effort.  After all, a weight was very often included with most manufacturer's kits to position inside of the boiler over the drivers, even with Varney's heavy cast bronze boilers.   A huge plus for type metal, despite it being somewhat hard, is that it's never prone to zinc pest, nor any other distortion or disintegration of the alloy it's made of.  Type metal's very make up of different metals was to assure durability and strength.  As cast in the form of type -- it's primary purpose -- it had to (and did) stay within an extremely close tolerance.  When typeset into a form, all of the individual characters had to meet the paper at precisely the same height in the press to be able to pick up ink and to meet the paper to be able to print on it.  That height was 0.918", and was known as "type-high."  This measurement of the type's height was for all kinds of type, including foundry type (as individual letters), linotype, ludlow and even hardwood type.  There was absolutely no variation and none ever distorted or developed "problems" over time.  There were probably more H0 manufacturers that used type metal than we may realize.  Not sure, but Selley may have used type metal before Bowser bought them out.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 2/19/2014 8:43:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, don.dellmann@... writes:   On 2/19/2014 3:27 PM, John Hagen wrote: Don Stromberg of Cary Locomotive Works used a lead antimony alloy that was softer than “Zamac.” It was easy to work with and took detail very well. When Bowser purchased the line they used their metal for casting the Cary line. It was very hard, hard to drill and weighed less. Of course the modeler probably wasn’t as likely to ingest any lead filings/shavings but I preferred Don’s castings. Now this is somewhat divorced from the zinc or zamac rot situation as the lead antimony casting did not suffer from the problem. What brought this to my mind (or what remains of what I laughing refer to as my mind) in the discussion of type metal. It sounds to me that Don’s alloy may have been closely related. But then I no metallurgist. John Hagen There was one down side to the Cary shells.  John, I'm sure you remember the yellow and white FT's and F3's on the old Beer City Lines.  First one I painted I tried to bake the paint with my old "sun Gun" from the movie camera.  I came back 15 minutes later to find a big hole MELTED in the side of an FTA. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21951	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: OT: CBI theater, WW 2s

A friend of mine gave me a print of her father working on a non US (from appearance) train and locomotive, on the back it was annotated WW II, Calcutta, India. Does anyone know of any Yahoo (or other) groups that might be able to assist in identifying the train/railroad/area if I were to post the picture? TIA Willard --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21952	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: OT: CBI theater, WW 2s

On 21/02/14 11:35, Willard Seehorn wrote: > A friend of mine gave me a print of her father working on a non US > (from appearance) train and locomotive, on the back it was annotated > WW II, Calcutta, India. > > Does anyone know of any Yahoo (or other) groups that might be able to > assist in identifying the train/railroad/area if I were to post the picture? There was a group for Indian Railways which I tried to join a couple of years back when I had some questions, to be greeted with a great ignore. Perhaps I caste the wrong way.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21953	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Ray,   Not being a metallurgist I can’t say what was in Don’s casting but as a modeler I liked and used a bunch of them. Other than having to take it easy when drilling #78 - #80 holes they were easy to work with and certainly would add heft to most any model. All diesels though as while I wanted to do some steam I never had the time. I did do detailing work on some other metal shells and of course a lot of plastic. I liked the plastic for working on and the detail that was possible but I liked the weight of the Cary.   GN had 10 ALCO S-2’s and I modeled every one of them. As I remember #’s 1-4 had different pilots than #’s 5-10. Plus I did the GBW S-2 #201 twice and something like three GBW S-1’s using the Cary S-2 as a starting point. I still have a couple of the hood door castings I made along with the molds I used to cast them.  Then there were the two GN RS-1’s of which one was used as Model of the Month by MR. And one SW 1500 and several F’s units for a private line of a close friend who used Hobbytown drives exclusively for some really powerful pullers.   The shells were not overly hard nor were they brittle as was proven when I dropped a freshly painted, early GN scheme S-2 about seven feet to a concrete floor. No breakage but the whole shell was rather prototypically warped. I did manage to use the front end of the shell for the short hood of one of the RS-1’s. I also still have the painted cab back from that incident. All that nice, fresh green, orange and yellow (no decaled stripes for me) paint …..   Unfortunately all those engines are gone as only two were for my personal use and they were sold some 15 – 20 years ago. Most of the GN units went to another friend and one GN S-2 and a GBW S-1 went to Don Stromberg. In both cases I did know of the sale of the units by the family until it was too late.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 10:51 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Don Stromberg's casting metal was similar to type metal in that the lead contained antimony, although it was lacking the tin that type metal contains.  As for the percentage of antimony used as compared to type metal, I have no idea, but it had to be more closely related to type metal than it was to zamac if only because it hadn't a trace of zinc in it.    As for an exceptionally hard metal, the alloy that Bowser used to make their later Cary correct-diameter (wide) PRR I-1 Decapod boiler, as an example, has to -- in my estimation -- be much harder (and lighter and thinner) than the steam engine boilers they produced before casting these last runs of Cary redesigned boilers.  Yes, Cary's boilers and diesel shells, before being bought out by Bowser were far from being light, neither were they especially hard, but I'm not sure if they were any heavier than Bowser's shells/boilers as Bowser's stuff was fairly hefty -- disregarding their last runs.  Possibly, except for the fact that it held detail extremely well, the quality of Bowser's engines being light and hard to drill (especially when considering their last runs) may be seen as drawbacks and with engines, we prefer them to weigh more (up to a point) rather than less, for added tractive effort.  After all, a weight was very often included with most manufacturer's kits to position inside of the boiler over the drivers, even with Varney's heavy cast bronze boilers.   A huge plus for type metal, despite it being somewhat hard, is that it's never prone to zinc pest, nor any other distortion or disintegration of the alloy it's made of.  Type metal's very make up of different metals was to assure durability and strength.  As cast in the form of type -- it's primary purpose -- it had to (and did) stay within an extremely close tolerance.  When typeset into a form, all of the individual characters had to meet the paper at precisely the same height in the press to be able to pick up ink and to meet the paper to be able to print on it.  That height was 0.918", and was known as "type-high."  This measurement of the type's height was for all kinds of type, including foundry type (as individual letters), linotype, ludlow and even hardwood type.  There was absolutely no variation and none ever distorted or developed "problems" over time.  There were probably more H0 manufacturers that used type metal than we may realize.  Not sure, but Selley may have used type metal before Bowser bought them out.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21954	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Attachments : Hey John, I’ve got a real GN S-2.  A BLI Museum Series 4-8-4, which nobody knows anything about. Just kidding about ‘real’. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 5:57 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Ray,   Not being a metallurgist I can’t say what was in Don’s casting but as a modeler I liked and used a bunch of them. Other than having to take it easy when drilling #78 - #80 holes they were easy to work with and certainly would add heft to most any model. All diesels though as while I wanted to do some steam I never had the time. I did do detailing work on some other metal shells and of course a lot of plastic. I liked the plastic for working on and the detail that was possible but I liked the weight of the Cary.   GN had 10 ALCO S-2’s and I modeled every one of them. As I remember #’s 1-4 had different pilots than #’s 5-10. Plus I did the GBW S-2 #201 twice and something like three GBW S-1’s using the Cary S-2 as a starting point. I still have a couple of the hood door castings I made along with the molds I used to cast them.  Then there were the two GN RS-1’s of which one was used as Model of the Month by MR. And one SW 1500 and several F’s units for a private line of a close friend who used Hobbytown drives exclusively for some really powerful pullers.   The shells were not overly hard nor were they brittle as was proven when I dropped a freshly painted, early GN scheme S-2 about seven feet to a concrete floor. No breakage but the whole shell was rather prototypically warped. I did manage to use the front end of the shell for the short hood of one of the RS-1’s. I also still have the painted cab back from that incident. All that nice, fresh green, orange and yellow (no decaled stripes for me) paint …..   Unfortunately all those engines are gone as only two were for my personal use and they were sold some 15 – 20 years ago. Most of the GN units went to another friend and one GN S-2 and a GBW S-1 went to Don Stromberg. In both cases I did know of the sale of the units by the family until it was too late.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 10:51 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Don Stromberg's casting metal was similar to type metal in that the lead contained antimony, although it was lacking the tin that type metal contains.  As for the percentage of antimony used as compared to type metal, I have no idea, but it had to be more closely related to type metal than it was to zamac if only because it hadn't a trace of zinc in it.    As for an exceptionally hard metal, the alloy that Bowser used to make their later Cary correct-diameter (wide) PRR I-1 Decapod boiler, as an example, has to -- in my estimation -- be much harder (and lighter and thinner) than the steam engine boilers they produced before casting these last runs of Cary redesigned boilers.  Yes, Cary's boilers and diesel shells, before being bought out by Bowser were far from being light, neither were they especially hard, but I'm not sure if they were any heavier than Bowser's shells/boilers as Bowser's stuff was fairly hefty -- disregarding their last runs.  Possibly, except for the fact that it held detail extremely well, the quality of Bowser's engines being light and hard to drill (especially when considering their last runs) may be seen as drawbacks and with engines, we prefer them to weigh more (up to a point) rather than less, for added tractive effort.  After all, a weight was very often included with most manufacturer's kits to position inside of the boiler over the drivers, even with Varney's heavy cast bronze boilers.   A huge plus for type metal, despite it being somewhat hard, is that it's never prone to zinc pest, nor any other distortion or disintegration of the alloy it's made of.  Type metal's very make up of different metals was to assure durability and strength.  As cast in the form of type -- it's primary purpose -- it had to (and did) stay within an extremely close tolerance.  When typeset into a form, all of the individual characters had to meet the paper at precisely the same height in the press to be able to pick up ink and to meet the paper to be able to print on it.  That height was 0.918", and was known as "type-high."  This measurement of the type's height was for all kinds of type, including foundry type (as individual letters), linotype, ludlow and even hardwood type.  There was absolutely no variation and none ever distorted or developed "problems" over time.  There were probably more H0 manufacturers that used type metal than we may realize.  Not sure, but Selley may have used type metal before Bowser bought them out.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21955	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Hi John.   In getting back here on this for a moment, in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with back in the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not really being hard and at the same time not being light, as you're saying.  You may be referring to the metal that Bowser had used in the last few decades rather than the metal used in their slightly older models.  The difference in the models they used these different metals on is easily recognized at a quick glance, as the same earlier model (their K-4 as an example) had all cast on details including air tanks, power reverse, air pump, headlight, bell and everything else.  Their later K-4, using the harder (and lighter) metal came without any such details already cast on to the boiler and the modeler would have to install these individual pieces himself in the pre-drilled holes.  I'm not saying that Bowser used a lead-like metal, but it wasn't all that hard that it wasn't workable -- and it was at least moderately heavy.  These boilers could not have been left over Penn Line stock, as we're talking about kits offered only 40 years ago -- and they were selling rapidly at that time.  These weren't superdetail parts either, that needed to be installed on these later engines, but just ordinary standard pieces to finish the locomotive   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 2/19/2014 4:27:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprinthag@... writes:   Don Stromberg of Cary Locomotive Works used a lead antimony alloy that was softer than “Zamac.” It was easy to work with and took detail very well. When Bowser purchased the line they used their metal for casting the Cary line. It was very hard, hard to drill and weighed less. Of course the modeler probably wasn’t as likely to ingest any lead filings/shavings but I preferred Don’s castings. Now this is somewhat divorced from the zinc or zamac rot situation as the lead antimony casting did not suffer from the problem. What brought this to my mind (or what remains of what I laughing refer to as my mind) in the discussion of type metal. It sounds to me that Don’s alloy may have been closely related. But then I no metallurgist. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john.allyn@... Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 1:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Ray -- Great post! With respect to Red Ball, I've got several of their kits.  The flat castings have saw marks on the back.  If I remember my high school industrial arts (and why don't kids have the benefit of this today?) correctly, type metal for big linotype castings is sawn to match the thickness of the surrounding type.  M. Dale Newton printed all of his card car sides, and the old legend was that he used his linotype machine to make castings.  This may be a manufacturing impossibility, but whatever metal he used it is softer -- "leadier" to coin a word -- than zamac.  It does hold detail beautifully, which, together with printing business, supports the type metal hypothesis, as type metal unlike most metals, expands upon cooling.  John B. Allyn Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (23) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 9 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21956	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

John,   I'm not quite sure where you're going with this "type metal hypothesis."  For starters, I have to doubt that type metal expands when it cools.  If it's in a linotype matrix or ludlow die when it's first injected as a liquid into these form to make type and then cools before being released from these forms, it would have no where to go before being released if it tried to expand.  If however, by chance, it does expand at that time as you're saying, it does not ever expand -- as zamac pest will do -- somewhere into it's useful lifetime.  Typemetal just never does any expanding after it's cast.  Perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly though, as I'm suspecting.      Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 2/19/2014 2:20:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, john.allyn@... writes:   Ray --   Great post!   With respect to Red Ball, I've got several of their kits.  The flat castings have saw marks on the back.  If I remember my high school industrial arts (and why don't kids have the benefit of this today?) correctly, type metal for big linotype castings is sawn to match the thickness of the surrounding type.  M. Dale Newton printed all of his card car sides, and the old legend was that he used his linotype machine to make castings.  This may be a manufacturing impossibility, but whatever metal he used it is softer -- "leadier" to coin a word -- than zamac.  It does hold detail beautifully, which, together with printing business, supports the type metal hypothesis, as type metal unlike most metals, expands upon cooling.    John B. Allyn From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:52:10 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show       John and Group,   You may be right, about the zinc alloy (zamak/zamac) being contaminated with tin and/or antimony since many model manufacturers didn't do their own castings, but relied on a metal casting company to do this work for them.  If the model manufacturer casted the parts themselves (and some did), there would be no tin or antimony on the premises and none could find there way into the zinc alloy.  But when these castings were jobbed out to companies that made castings of all types of alloys in their productions, it's easy to see how other metals can get included in this metal mixture -- especially, so if some of those companies used sweepings from the floor to reduce any waste (and reports are that this happened at least on occasion).  With different other metals unintentionally being included in the zamac castings at undetermined intervals, this would point to some batched being contaminated while others were completely pure of foreign metals.    You brought up the mention of the "original German," and to expand on this as concerns zamac, the term which many of you know indicates the various metals that go into this alloy, but the term originally used was "zamak," an acronym indicating zinc, aluminum, magnesium and kupfer (the German name for copper).  As you all know too, zinc is the major portion of this alloy, with aluminum -- of a more or less standard 4% of aluminum being the second metal, of largest content.  As there are five Types of zamac alloy, numbering 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7, they each had different mixtures of these other metals.  To compound that, each of Types of zamac have Codes indicating yet different other mixtures of these metals used in the five Types of zamac.     While aluminum was used with zinc in a "standard" proportion of 4%, that can vary between 3.5% and 4.3%.  Likewise, magnesium can vary between 0.3% and 0.6%; copper can vary between 0% and 3.5%, although a content of between 2.6% and 3.3% is most often used.  Occasionally with certain Codes, nickel will replace the copper.  These different mixtures were used to obtain different strengths and other properties of the alloy.  By this, you can see how some zamac had a higher quality right from the scratch.  We don't know which Type(s) of zamac the model manufacturers used, but it appear they did at least vary somewhat, and then, who's to know if and when a metal casting company contracted by these manufacturers substituted a lower grade zamac -- which wouldn't have become evident until 40 or 50 years later.   When zamac is not contaminated with other metals, it continues to hold up extremely well over time, after the New Jersey Zinc Company perfected its processing of zinc ore to produce a 99.99% pure metal.  Yes, this is the same N.J. Zinc that Ulrich used as a roadname for one of their General Service Gondolas.  Some of us NJ railfans (including myself) used to go out to Franklin and Ogdensburg NJ, to NJ Zinc's mines and photograph the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy which serviced them and brought the ore to Allentown, PA.  We also went out to N.J.'s Palmerton, PA refinery, which was served by the Central RR of PA (a subsidiary of the Central RR of NJ), and later, by the Lehigh Valley RR -- both which brought the ore from Allentown to Palmerton, where ultimately the Chestnut Ridge Rwy brought it to the smelters.  We were often invited into NJ Zinc's offices in both states on these trips and were explained the whole process of making zamac there, which was found to be really interesting.        Tin and antimony were both used together, with lead, to make type metal for the printing trade.  Not only did type foundries use this, but it was used as the casting alloy for Linotype machines; I used to work with it every day, as a printer.  Normally type foundries restricted themselves to only that product, so these metals couldn't have been used in conjunction with zamac at those locations, but then too, there were other model manufacturers (which may have jobbed out there castings needs) which may have been the source of metal contamination in zamac also being used there.  I believe Red Ball may have used such a similar lead alloy, possibly using a portion of one of both of those added metals (tin and/or antimony), albeit not using an actual type metal alloy.  Type metal has a certain hardness to it for strength and durability, while Red Ball's lead alloy is much softer although harder than lead.    Although it does appear that these problems were batch-specific, it also appears that they were era-oriented, as being more prevalent during certain periods when some metals were either unavailable or harder to obtain.  Just as during WW II, copper was more in demand by the defense department during the Korean War to make brass shell casing and the like.   Ray Wetzel   -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Cc: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 14:36:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I haven't seen any zincpest (this is one instance where the original German does justice to the plague) in years.  If I remember correctly. it is the result of tin and antimony (I think) getting into the zinc alloy.   I used to see it a lot in Roundhouse/MDC all metal kits and Cliff Line and early Central Valley trucks.  With the Roundhouse stuff it could be a flaw in the casting process, as I used to see chill marks on the flat castings)  I've got Ulrich kits of the same vintage as Ray's and Vic's (war emergency gons, two bay and three bay hoppers) and haven't had any problems so it may be batch-specific.  The problems seem to appear in "hard" zamac Ulrich cars and various trucks) that may be the giveaway. John B. Allyn From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 8:16:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Rick, Okay, yes Ulrich's composite gons are long also -- I believe, at 52'. Odd that they should be bowed as that's unusual for Ulrich, but it looks like just about any manufacturer's zamac castings may be affected. I wouldn't suggest trying to straighten an Ulrich side as their zamac was a bit harder than MDC's. I don't want to use the term "brittle," as the harder zamac compositions weren't prone to breakage, but the metal is more resistant to someone's trying to bend a warp in the opposite direction to straighten it. When forced beyond it's stress point, it just gives (breaks at it's weakest point) instead of giving in to bending at all. Pays to open every kit box your interested in at a train meet, to make a full inspection. Some dealers frown on opening the boxes because of the chance for losing some parts, but others encourage this knowing it will probably lead to a sale. Just don't drop any parts out of the boxe s unknowingly when you buy them. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21957	From: greenbrier614	Date: 2/20/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Thanks for the info and those memories, Ray. I'm also in NJ, but can only visit the Palmer ruins now (along with a hike at Edison on Sparta Mountain). When did you make those field trips? Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote:     John and Group,   You may be right, about the zinc alloy (zamak/zamac) being contaminated with tin and/or antimony since many model manufacturers didn't do their own castings, but relied on a metal casting company to do this work for them.  If the model manufacturer casted the parts themselves (and some did), there would be no tin or antimony on the premises and none could find there way into the zinc alloy.  But when these castings were jobbed out to companies that made castings of all types of alloys in their productions, it's easy to see how other metals can get included in this metal mixture -- especially, so if some of those companies used sweepings from the floor to reduce any waste (and reports are that this happened at least on occasion).  With different other metals unintentionally being included in the zamac castings at undetermined intervals, this would point to some batched being contaminated while others were completely pure of foreign metals.    You brought up the mention of the "original German," and to expand on this as concerns zamac, the term which many of you know indicates the various metals that go into this alloy, but the term originally used was "zamak," an acronym indicating zinc, aluminum, magnesium and kupfer (the German name for copper).  As you all know too, zinc is the major portion of this alloy, with aluminum -- of a more or less standard 4% of aluminum being the second metal, of largest content.  As there are five Types of zamac alloy, numbering 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7, they each had different mixtures of these other metals.  To compound that, each of Types of zamac have Codes indicating yet different other mixtures of these metals used in the five Types of zamac.     While aluminum was used with zinc in a "standard" proportion of 4%, that can vary between 3.5% and 4.3%.  Likewise, magnesium can vary between 0.3% and 0.6%; copper can vary between 0% and 3.5%, although a content of between 2.6% and 3.3% is most often used.  Occasionally with certain Codes, nickel will replace the copper.  These different mixtures were used to obtain different strengths and other properties of the alloy.  By this, you can see how some zamac had a higher quality right from the scratch.  We don't know which Type(s) of zamac the model manufacturers used, but it appear they did at least vary somewhat, and then, who's to know if and when a metal casting company contracted by these manufacturers substituted a lower grade zamac -- which wouldn't have become evident until 40 or 50 years later.   When zamac is not contaminated with other metals, it continues to hold up extremely well over time, after the New Jersey Zinc Company perfected its processing of zinc ore to produce a 99.99% pure metal.  Yes, this is the same N.J. Zinc that Ulrich used as a roadname for one of their General Service Gondolas.  Some of us NJ railfans (including myself) used to go out to Franklin and Ogdensburg NJ, to NJ Zinc's mines and photograph the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy which serviced them and brought the ore to Allentown, PA.  We also went out to N.J.'s Palmerton, PA refinery, which was served by the Central RR of PA (a subsidiary of the Central RR of NJ), and later, by the Lehigh Valley RR -- both which brought the ore from Allentown to Palmerton, where ultimately the Chestnut Ridge Rwy brought it to the smelters.  We were often invited into NJ Zinc's offices in both states on these trips and were explained the whole process of making zamac there, which was found to be really interesting.        Tin and antimony were both used together, with lead, to make type metal for the printing trade.  Not only did type foundries use this, but it was used as the casting alloy for Linotype machines; I used to work with it every day, as a printer.  Normally type foundries restricted themselves to only that product, so these metals couldn't have been used in conjunction with zamac at those locations, but then too, there were other model manufacturers (which may have jobbed out there castings needs) which may have been the source of metal contamination in zamac also being used there.  I believe Red Ball may have used such a similar lead alloy, possibly using a portion of one of both of those added metals (tin and/or antimony), albeit not using an actual type metal alloy.  Type metal has a certain hardness to it for strength and durability, while Red Ball's lead alloy is much softer although harder than lead.    Although it does appear that these problems were batch-specific, it also appears that they were era-oriented, as being more prevalent during certain periods when some metals were either unavailable or harder to obtain.  Just as during WW II, copper was more in demand by the defense department during the Korean War to make brass shell casing and the like.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21958	From: mrrwarehouse	Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Red Ball metal castings were made using a specific type metal alloy of lead-tin-antimony in a Ludlow (NOT Linotype) machine. Ludlows were used in printing to cast large headline typefaces and special images.  The obvious reasons for the alloy in model castings are that tin (very expensive) is important to the surface finish and antimony EXPANDS when cooling (while the lead and tin shrink) to hold the dimensions (as other posts have noted)  and detail.  Too much lead (by adding inexpensive used tire balancing weights- common practice of some spin casting firms) would greatly hamper finish, detail crispness AND dimensional integrity  yielding a "globbier" looking piece. The Ludlow was designed for this alloy and it could really malfunction with doctored metal.  The parts were cast in a solid metal mold (usually brass) with a "slug" on the back that the machine pulled out after casting to pull parts from mold (remember, the parts were not allowed to shrink enough to remove them from the mold readily).  The slug was sawed off the back of sensitive castings and sheared off heavier castings that could stand the stress of the shearing.  Brass molds were machined. We did try aluminum and had just begun developing a nickel mold technique before selling Red Ball to LaBelle Woodworking. Steel was not an option. The mold metal expands when heated and you had to rotate WHAT molds you were casting to control that --the Ludlow's cooling system had practical limitations . Steel (besides higher machining expense) was impossible for temperature control-steel molds could not be used. (Steel molds in plastic molding are water cooled). Cutoff slugs ere remelted in the pot. Sawdust could be reused  too IF carefully, cleanly, tended to.  Once in a while a part would stick ( usually if a mold was too hot) and part could not pull, breaking off the slug. The brass mold was removed and dropped in the Ludlow's melting pot a couple minutes when that happened- and then CAREFULLY removing mold. (Brass molds floated in the melt and did not foul the plunger that forced molten metal out).  Once tried to do that with a new aluminum mold and electrolysis eroded the aluminum "instantly" messing up both mold and melt. This reply started out to explain something of the metallurgy being discussed. Apologies for enduing up summarizing  some 30 years of running the Red Ball Ludlows.   Merle Rice

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21959	From: John Hagen	Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Merle,   Absolutely no apology needed. This is a very interesting post and I for one found it extremely informative.   I really like the old cast metal models and I am always interested in the history of items I like.   Thank you, John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mrrwarehouse@... Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:00 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Red Ball metal castings were made using a specific type metal alloy of lead-tin-antimony in a Ludlow (NOT Linotype) machine. Ludlows were used in printing to cast large headline typefaces and special images.  The obvious reasons for the alloy in model castings are that tin (very expensive) is important to the surface finish and antimony EXPANDS when cooling (while the lead and tin shrink) to hold the dimensions (as other posts have noted)  and detail.  Too much lead (by adding inexpensive used tire balancing weights- common practice of some spin casting firms) would greatly hamper finish, detail crispness AND dimensional integrity  yielding a "globbier" looking piece. The Ludlow was designed for this alloy and it could really malfunction with doctored metal.  The parts were cast in a solid metal mold (usually brass) with a "slug" on the back that the machine pulled out after casting to pull parts from mold (remember, the parts were not allowed to shrink enough to remove them from the mold readily).  The slug was sawed off the back of sensitive castings and sheared off heavier castings that could stand the stress of the shearing.  Brass molds were machined. We did try aluminum and had just begun developing a nickel mold technique before selling Red Ball to LaBelle Woodworking. Steel was not an option. The mold metal expands when heated and you had to rotate WHAT molds you were casting to control that --the Ludlow's cooling system had practical limitations . Steel (besides higher machining expense) was impossible for temperature control-steel molds could not be used. (Steel molds in plastic molding are water cooled). Cutoff slugs ere remelted in the pot. Sawdust could be reused  too IF carefully, cleanly, tended to.  Once in a while a part would stick ( usually if a mold was too hot) and part could not pull, breaking off the slug. The brass mold was removed and dropped in the Ludlow's melting pot a couple minutes when that happened- and then CAREFULLY removing mold. (Brass molds floated in the melt and did not foul the plunger that forced molten metal out).  Once tried to do that with a new aluminum mold and electrolysis eroded the aluminum "instantly" messing up both mold and melt. This reply started out to explain something of the metallurgy being discussed. Apologies for enduing up summarizing  some 30 years of running the Red Ball Ludlows.   Merle Rice

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21960	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Nelson,    Those "field trips" I made were -- as I mentioned -- at some of those same times when I was photographing the railroads that served them, many of the trips being before April 1st 1976, before the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy got absorbed into Conrail.  The trips out to PA was during the same period, although I continued to photograph these trains (and make field trips to NJ Zinc) for a few years later, as Conrail continued to use the same L&HR power on these zinc ore trains, still lettered as L&HR -- except for one they painted in CR blue and renumbered 2072.  The remainder of the L&HR power was eventually renumbered (but not repainted), although they were in no hurry to do that.    As the Ogdensburg, NJ zinc mine was more recently turned into a touring museum -- even taking attendees down into the mine -- they published a periodical magazine which the president of the Museum asked me for photos of the RR operations on the property, which I gladly complied with.  It was an enjoyable time.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 2/21/2014 12:19:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, greenbrier614@... writes:   Thanks for the info and those memories, Ray. I'm also in NJ, but can only visit the Palmer ruins now (along with a hike at Edison on Sparta Mountain). When did you make those field trips? Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote:     John and Group,   You may be right, about the zinc alloy (zamak/zamac) being contaminated with tin and/or antimony since many model manufacturers didn't do their own castings, but relied on a metal casting company to do this work for them.  If the model manufacturer casted the parts themselves (and some did), there would be no tin or antimony on the premises and none could find there way into the zinc alloy.  But when these castings were jobbed out to companies that made castings of all types of alloys in their productions, it's easy to see how other metals can get included in this metal mixture -- especially, so if some of those companies used sweepings from the floor to reduce any waste (and reports are that this happened at least on occasion).  With different other metals unintentionally being included in the zamac castings at undetermined intervals, this would point to some batched being contaminated while others were completely pure of foreign metals.    You brought up the mention of the "original German," and to expand on this as concerns zamac, the term which many of you know indicates the various metals that go into this alloy, but the term originally used was "zamak," an acronym indicating zinc, aluminum, magnesium and kupfer (the German name for copper).  As you all know too, zinc is the major portion of this alloy, with aluminum -- of a more or less standard 4% of aluminum being the second metal, of largest content.  As there are five Types of zamac alloy, numbering 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7, they each had different mixtures of these other metals.  To compound that, each of Types of zamac have Codes indicating yet different other mixtures of these metals used in the five Types of zamac.     While aluminum was used with zinc in a "standard" proportion of 4%, that can vary between 3.5% and 4.3%.  Likewise, magnesium can vary between 0.3% and 0.6%; copper can vary between 0% and 3.5%, although a content of between 2.6% and 3.3% is most often used.  Occasionally with certain Codes, nickel will replace the copper.  These different mixtures were used to obtain different strengths and other properties of the alloy.  By this, you can see how some zamac had a higher quality right from the scratch.  We don't know which Type(s) of zamac the model manufacturers used, but it appear they did at least vary somewhat, and then, who's to know if and when a metal casting company contracted by these manufacturers substituted a lower grade zamac -- which wouldn't have become evident until 40 or 50 years later.   When zamac is not contaminated with other metals, it continues to hold up extremely well over time, after the New Jersey Zinc Company perfected its processing of zinc ore to produce a 99.99% pure metal.  Yes, this is the same N.J. Zinc that Ulrich used as a roadname for one of their General Service Gondolas.  Some of us NJ railfans (including myself) used to go out to Franklin and Ogdensburg NJ, to NJ Zinc's mines and photograph the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy which serviced them and brought the ore to Allentown, PA.  We also went out to N.J.'s Palmerton, PA refinery, which was served by the Central RR of PA (a subsidiary of the Central RR of NJ), and later, by the Lehigh Valley RR -- both which brought the ore from Allentown to Palmerton, where ultimately the Chestnut Ridge Rwy brought it to the smelters.  We were often invited into NJ Zinc's offices in both states on these trips and were explained the whole process of making zamac there, which was found to be really interesting.        Tin and antimony were both used together, with lead, to make type metal for the printing trade.  Not only did type foundries use this, but it was used as the casting alloy for Linotype machines; I used to work with it every day, as a printer.  Normally type foundries restricted themselves to only that product, so these metals couldn't have been used in conjunction with zamac at those locations, but then too, there were other model manufacturers (which may have jobbed out there castings needs) which may have been the source of metal contamination in zamac also being used there.  I believe Red Ball may have used such a similar lead alloy, possibly using a portion of one of both of those added metals (tin and/or antimony), albeit not using an actual type metal alloy.  Type metal has a certain hardness to it for strength and durability, while Red Ball's lead alloy is much softer although harder than lead.    Although it does appear that these problems were batch-specific, it also appears that they were era-oriented, as being more prevalent during certain periods when some metals were either unavailable or harder to obtain.  Just as during WW II, copper was more in demand by the defense department during the Korean War to make brass shell casing and the like.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21961	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/21/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Merle,   I echo John's same sentiments -- absolutely no need for any apology.  While a type casting Ludlow machine used in printing may not be on topic in HO modeling, it IS when it's use is explained in producing these very models.  I had suspected that Ludlow machines may have been used by Red Ball and since you state that they were, this concludes that type metal (lead, tin and antimony) was in fact the alloy that was used in Red Ball's parts.  I'm finding your outline very interesting.   Having been in printing in one way or another, including the schooling of it since 1951, I'd guess that I probably had an equal amount of time working with Ludlow machines (and luckily never got a squirt).  But to understand more of its application to producing cast metal parts for H0 models, your further input on the actual molds would be appreciated.  The normal Ludlow composing stick produces a 22.5 Pica long slug, equal to 3.75" (6 Picas to the inch, for the rest of you members).  There were some Ludlow machines which did cast 25 Pica slugs, but these were out of the norm.  As the model parts were cast in a "solid" metal mold, as was stated, I would have to picture this as being one long piece, no longer than 3.75" -- and possibly shorter if multiple smaller parts were to be cast -- and conforming to the same dimension (width) as Ludlow mats (matrices) used for casting type (?).    For others here, Ludlow machines will cast type sizes from 5 pts. up to 144 pts., and again for others here uninitiated with printing, there are 12 pts (points) to a Pica and 6 Picas to the inch.  A type size of 144 pts. is equal to 2", so another question would be, were Red Ball's parts restricted to being 2" wide or could the brass molds be made to go a bit wider, while still retained to a width to fit between the rails of the Ludlow stick?  The largest type I had need to set was 72 pts., but I'd often have to set lines of 6 pt. type to cast.   For others again; the cutting off of the slugs would in itself suggest that the parts came from a Ludlow machine, but to those not familiar with the process it wasn't necessarily evident.  In trying to illustrate this, and end-on cross section of a Ludlow slug with the type-face or model part still as being part of it may be pictured as a "T" with the verticle part of the slug (perhaps 3/16" wide, as best as I can remember it) being the section that's cut off in producing model parts.  When grindings and "sawdust" are put back into the melting pot, any impurities float to the surface as "dross" (which also includes any oxidized tin and antimony) and skimmed off with a perforated steel ladle.  It's rare that other metals can become part of this alloy if they should accidentally be added to the melting pot unless their melting temperature is as low as that of the type metal mixture (700 o F) or lower.       The explanation of antimony expanding -- while the lead and tin shrink -- now fully shows how this process works in producing the same height in type (or in this case, a model part) as was intended to end up with.  Again, very interesting as applied to Red Ball model production.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 2/21/2014 11:44:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprinthag@... writes:   Merle, Absolutely no apology needed. This is a very interesting post and I for one found it extremely informative. I really like the old cast metal models and I am always interested in the history of items I like. Thank you, John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mrrwarehouse@... Sent: Friday, February 21, 2014 9:00 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Red Ball metal castings were made using a specific type metal alloy of lead-tin-antimony in a Ludlow (NOT Linotype) machine. Ludlows were used in printing to cast large headline typefaces and special images.  The obvious reasons for the alloy in model castings are that tin (very expensive) is important to the surface finish and anti mony EXPANDS when cooling (while the lead and tin shrink) to hold the dimensions (as other posts have noted)  and detail.  Too much lead (by adding inexpensive used tire balancing weights- common practice of some spin casting firms) would greatly hamper finish, detail crispness AND dimensional integrity  yielding a "globbier" looking piece. The Ludlow was designed for this alloy and it could really malfunction with doctored metal.  The parts were cast in a solid metal mold (usually brass) with a "slug" on the back that the machine pulled out after casting to pull parts from mold (remember, the parts were not allowed to shrink enough to remove them from the mold readily).  The slug was sawed off the back of sensitive castings and sheared off heavier castings that could stand the stress of the shearing.  Brass molds were machined. We did try aluminum and had just begun developing a nickel mold technique before se lling Red Ball to LaBelle Woodworking. Steel was not an option. The mold metal expands when heated and you had to rotate WHAT molds you were casting to control that --the Ludlow's cooling system had practical limitations . Steel (besides higher machining expense) was impossible for temperature control-steel molds could not be used. (Steel molds in plastic molding are water cooled). Cutoff slugs ere remelted in the pot. Sawdust could be reused  too IF carefully, cleanly, tended to.  Once in a while a part would stick ( usually if a mold was too hot) and part could not pull, breaking off the slug. The brass mold was removed and dropped in the Ludlow's melting pot a couple minutes when that happened- and then CAREFULLY removing mold. (Brass molds floated in the melt and did not foul the plunger that forced molten metal out).  Once tried to do that with a new aluminum mold and electrolysis eroded the aluminum "instantly"&nbs p;messing up both mold and melt. This reply started out to explain something of the metallurgy being discussed. Apologies for enduing up summarizing  some 30 years of running the Red Ball Ludlows. Merle Rice

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21962	From: kenrobbins39	Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Red Ball castings

Merle, thanks for educating me as to how the Red Ball castings were made. Buying my first ones back in the 1950's, I marveled at the sharpness of the detail, then as the years passed, working as a machinist, I figured out that the metal had somehow been forced into engraved metal molds. Later, when constructing master-models professionally, I had cold-formed lead/tin/antimony into aluminum molds under high pressure, duplicating the look of a Red Ball casting (at great cost), but was still in the dark as to the process used. Thanks for clearing things up. Ken Robbins Hancock, NH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21963	From: mrrwarehouse	Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Back to Red Ball --from Merle Rice When we bought Red Ball from Howell I brought in a retired machinist from a city newspaper to teach me and "make house call;s" till I learned the peculiarities of Ludlowland.  He was totally entranced watching miniature parts (rather than alphabets) coming out the machine and for many years supplied metal from print shops closing down their hot metal type. I'll try to avoid losing most folks with names of machine parts etc. The "stickj" referred to is a fixture that holds the molds in the machine.  We used three different "widths" of molds (the width of the solid metal block) in three different sizes of sticks.  It was an absolute MUST that all molds had to be same width. The cavities (the machined holes that were the "negative shape of part" to form the part could be various widths in those various mold sizes. Several molds had to be run simultaneously to completely "fill the stick" --otherwise molten metal would be flying up like a volcano into the room above the machine. The "squirt" referred to was molten metal flying out the front of the machine AT the operator and/or out the back  at the wall (in our case). Typecasting was not done "in production--just the one or few shots needed to make up the type for the printing press. For part production there were special considerations.  When running a few hundred  parts the temperature control and small pieces of flash loose in the machine could cause the machine to not quite make kissing contact with the molds and squirts were not uncommon. Overheating  molds or the molten metal  was to be  avoided.  Overheated metal flowed too much like water- finding escape routes (besides the mold) under the tremendous injection pressure. Good operators learned a lot (quickly) in self defense.   In plastic molding we must earn how the pressure AND temperature must be for any given mold by ramping them up.  In the Ludlow there is no control over the pressure and the the pot has a thermostat, operator skill is critical for production. When running with 22 pound pigs the temperature held better than when melting the slugs etc.  Oh yes, the dross was mentioned.  When it was cleaned the surface of the pot was like a mirror. BUT every week or so the plunger had to be cleaned. This was a cylinder that piushed molten metal out the bottom of the pot quickly under pressuire. if you waited too long the builduip on it made it a worse struggle to remove.  The machine hat to be hot so the pot was liquid when the operator leaned over it with an extraction handle to wriggle,twist  and pull the hot steel cylinder (about size of auto cylinder) out oifr the pot.  He then scrubbed the hot cylinder with wire brush and reamed the hole  with a special reaming tool. This was done with a special weight on the "mouthpiece" so he wouldn't accidentally cause ejection of molten metal on himself.  Then the cylinder was replaced in the hole (in the bottom of molten metal pot) and reconnected mechanically.   When a shot was made, the pot swiveled and a precision "mouthpiece" on it moved over under  it shooting the metal through a slotted piece (that formed the slug) that moved under the molds. There were  precision machined surfaces fitting  snugly up against the molds and against the mouthpiece of the pot position. A shear cut off the bottom of the slug as it pulled the parts out of the mold (the parts being attached to the top of the slug). Parts of the machine were busy moving a multiple directions during this shot--just about defying explanation--"you had to be there." There were several mating surfaces cleaned by special wipers and alert operators. But the question I started to answer was SIZE.  We used printer's sticks for 300 or morer of the molds but not all the other molds. Width of the PART was restricted by the machine dimensions and mechanics to  about  an HO boxcar or hopper end. Whole carsides (like old time kitchen car or rotary snow plow) were the physical limit because the machine could only move a limited amount of molten metal in one shot. The N&W Battleship Gon side and others  had been done or tried full length art one time but was made in halves because of this limitation. Length of the part was not so limited because  we had double length sticks and had some special fixtures that allowed some over- length parts to be done (slowly) with special techniques. The special fixtures and some special molds  were interesting to engineer (or to figure out if they came from Howell Day or M Dale Newton) .  Some crane and Rotary Plow parts required physical removal and disassembly of mold for hand removal of the parts- taking 3-15 minutes depending on the part.  You had to have another stick ready to keep running the machine or metal would overheat in the pot  leading to squirts. Thus 2 operators were used here while running those parts. [ During the 1970s we ran the electric Ludlow 2 shifts a day and had a second, gas fired, Ludlow in reserve as there was some electric rationing for a while]. Because several small parts were run simultaneously, the process of sawing them off slugs led to a time consuminmg inspect & sort job.  Howell Day did not operate the Ludlow. His machine was in a local print shop and their "rent" of it was to provide him castings, when he took over some molds, at a price per pound. He missed a lot of the "fun" of running tons of Red Ball !   Merle Rice

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21964	From: John Webster	Date: 2/22/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Fascinating educational posts. I've got a couple Red Ball kits with the sawn off pour stubs very evident.   I would have thought that the alloy would bond to the brass molds like a solder but that was apparently not the case.   John Webster

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21965	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/23/2014
Subject: Today's Finds At The Train Show - now Linotypes and Hornby Dublo..

On 23/02/14 7:08, mrrwarehouse@... wrote: > Back to Red Ball --from Merle Rice > When we bought Red Ball from Howell I brought in a retired machinist from a city newspaper to teach me and "make house call;s" till I learned the peculiarities of Ludlowland. He was totally entranced watching miniature parts (rather than alphabets) coming out the machine and for many years supplied metal from print shops closing down their hot metal type. > I'll try to avoid losing most folks with names of machine parts etc. Merle - Thanks for going through this with us - I remember the Linotype machines well from when I worked on the local newspaper as a delivery boy. I worked my way up from novice to where I was a trusted employee, and in consequence was given the largest delivery round in the town! For the same pay!! Papers were delivered rain or shine on our bicycles. One of my friends who also ran 00-gauge (sorry group!) British Hornby Dublo 3-rail tinplate worked as an apprentice in the Linotype room, where they had (of course) a number of these machines. He was learning to operate and type on these. A second friend was also starting the same job. I remember one of his jobs, as the lowest man on the totem pole, was to clean the 'space bands' (I think they were) which provided variable spaces between the words on each line so that the lines all finished up the same length. I think they were cleaned and polished with graphite, to make them operate smoothly. Many afternoons while waiting for the press to start, we would wander through and watch the Linotypes in action, as you say, spitting and clanking. Back to trains: The three of us were members of a correspondence 'Hornby Railway Company' Group, affiliated with the Hornby Company in England, and with another few Dublo boys rented a room from the local Catholic Church for about $1.50 per week and built a U-shaped layout on boards by pooling all our trains. Each item was marked with a color code done with paint on the underside, so we knew whose was which.. This would have been around 1954.. Nowadays the MOTAT (Museum of Transport and Technology) here in Auckland has a restored Linotype operating, handled by my boyhood friend who has also moved here! I think he was also involved with the 5?-manual Wurlitzer Pipe Organ in a local theatre, which appeared from the bowels of the side-stage for each performance. http://www.motat.org.nz/ I cannot see any mention of the Linotype on their website, but there was an article in the latest MOTAT Magazine, which I will try to find for anyone who would like further information.. My friend was also in it.. Sorry for the ramble - thought it might be of interest.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21966	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/23/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Merle,   Thanks for the further input on Red Ball operations using the Ludlow in producing the cast metal parts.  While I don't intend to get too far into the printing aspect, the casting of metal model railroad parts using this equipment is fascinating.  Yes, one would have to "have been" there to fully appreciate this procedure, but you've explained it quite well.  Besides using the composing stick of single length, I remember using "triple sticks" being three individual sticks long.  Still, only one 3.75" (22.5 Picas) slug could be cast at any one time, then the stick was to be moved in turn to each of the other two sections.  I do note your use of "special fixtures" to enable casting some over-length parts; I've never encounter this in printing so I'm unfamiliar with them.  I might assume that there was no slug material under the extended castings, explaining why special fixtures may not have been used in printing when there would be nothing beneath the type supporting it.    Double and triple sticks would facilitate the casting of the needed lines in multiple but as you indicate, typesetting was not done "in production," mainly as each printed line would always be different (unless longer press runs were expected where replacement type might be needed).  I would expect though, that if triple sticks were used in model parts production that this would at least speed things up in allowing for cooling of the molds not in use at the time while the other stick section was being cast.   Your description of whole car sides being about the limited length that could be cast can be appreciated when picturing the process.  It's now understandable why the N&W Battleship Gon sides were best done in two parts.  When casting several smaller parts, the stick definitely had to be filled out if they didn't "justify" the line -- presumedly with the same brass "quads" (solid blanks) we'd use in printing.  I can see how this would still have been labor intensive though, when considering the time (and care) needed to saw off the slugs.   I have to feel sorrow for Mr. Day, not operating the Ludlow.  He missed all the enjoyment of actually producing the parts and the operation of the machine itself.  I must agree, it was fun using those machines.  Thanks again for a most accurate and descriptive illustration.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 2/22/2014 1:08:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mrrwarehouse@... writes:   Back to Red Ball --from Merle Rice When we bought Red Ball from Howell I brought in a retired machinist from a city newspaper to teach me and "make house call;s" till I learned the peculiarities of Ludlowland.  He was totally entranced watching miniature parts (rather than alphabets) coming out the machine and for many years supplied metal from print shops closing down their hot metal type. I'll try to avoid losing most folks with names of machine parts etc. The "stickj" referred to is a fixture that holds the molds in the machine.  We used three different "widths" of molds (the width of the solid metal block) in three different sizes of sticks.  It was an absolute MUST that all molds had to be same width. The cavities (the machined holes that were the "negative shape of part" to form the part could be various widths in those various mold sizes. Several molds had to be run simultaneously to completely "fill the stick" --otherwise molten metal would be flying up like a volcano into the room above the machine. The "squirt" referred to was molten metal flying out the front of the machine AT the operator and/or out the back  at the wall (in our case). Typecasting was not done "in production--just the one or few shots needed to make up the type for the printing press. For part production there were special considerations.  When running a few hundred  parts the temperature control and small pieces of flash loose in the machine could cause the machine to not quite make kissing contact with the molds and squirts were not uncommon. Overheating  molds or the molten metal  was to be  avoided.  Overheated metal flowed too much like water- finding escape routes (besides the mold) under the tremendous injection pressure. Good operators learned a lot (quickly) in self defense.   In plastic molding we must earn how the pressure AND temperature must be for any given mold by ramping them up.  In the Ludlow there is no control over the pressure and the the pot has a thermostat, operator skill is critical for production. When running with 22 pound pigs the temperature held better than when melting the slugs etc.  Oh yes, the dross was mentioned.  When it was cleaned the surface of the pot was like a mirror. BUT every week or so the plunger had to be cleaned. This was a cylinder that piushed molten metal out the bottom of the pot quickly under pressuire. if you waited too long the builduip on it made it a worse struggle to remove.  The machine hat to be hot so the pot was liquid when the operator leaned over it with an extraction handle to wriggle,twist  and pull the hot steel cylinder (about size of auto cylinder) out oifr the pot.  He then scrubbed the hot cylinder with wire brush and reamed the hole& nbsp; with a special reaming tool. This was done with a special weight on the "mouthpiece" so he wouldn't accidentally cause ejection of molten metal on himself.  Then the cylinder was replaced in the hole (in the bottom of molten metal pot) and reconnected mechanically.   When a shot was made, the pot swiveled and a precision "mouthpiece" on it moved over under  it shooting the metal through a slotted piece (that formed the slug) that moved under the molds. There were  precision machined surfaces fitting  snugly up against the molds and against the mouthpiece of the pot position. A shear cut off the bottom of the slug as it pulled the parts out of the mold (the parts being attached to the top of the slug). Parts of the machine were busy moving a multiple directions during this shot--just about defying explanation--"you had to be there." There were several mating su rfaces cleaned by special wipers and alert operators. But the question I started to answer was SIZE.  We used printer's sticks for 300 or morer of the molds but not all the other molds. Width of the PART was restricted by the machine dimensions and mechanics to  about  an HO boxcar or hopper end. Whole carsides (like old time kitchen car or rotary snow plow) were the physical limit because the machine could only move a limited amount of molten metal in one shot. The N&W Battleship Gon side and others  had been done or tried full length art one time but was made in halves because of this limitation. Length of the part was not so limited because  we had double length sticks and had some special fixtures that allowed some over- length parts to be done (slowly) with special techniques. The special fixtures and some special molds  were interesting to engineer (or to figure out if they came from Howell Day or M Dale Newton) .& nbsp; Some crane and Rotary Plow parts required physical removal and disassembly of mold for hand removal of the parts- taking 3-15 minutes depending on the part.  You had to have another stick ready to keep running the machine or metal would overheat in the pot  leading to squirts. Thus 2 operators were used here while running those parts. [ During the 1970s we ran the electric Ludlow 2 shifts a day and had a second, gas fired, Ludlow in reserve as there was some electric rationing for a while]. Because several small parts were run simultaneously, the process of sawing them off slugs led to a time consuminmg inspect & sort job.  Howell Day did not operate the Ludlow. His machine was in a local print shop and their "rent" of it was to provide him castings, when he took over some molds, at a price per pound. He missed a lot of the "fun" of running tons of Red Ball !   Merle Rice

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21967	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Ray--   I think that it is more apt to say that it doesn't contract or there is minimal contraction on cooling.  John B. Allyn From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 5:12:39 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   John,   I'm not quite sure where you're going with this "type metal hypothesis."  For starters, I have to doubt that type metal expands when it cools.  If it's in a linotype matrix or ludlow die when it's first injected as a liquid into these form to make type and then cools before being released from these forms, it would have no where to go before being released if it tried to expand.  If however, by chance, it does expand at that time as you're saying, it does not ever expand -- as zamac pest will do -- somewhere into it's useful lifetime.  Typemetal just never does any expanding after it's cast.  Perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly though, as I'm suspecting.      Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 2/19/2014 2:20:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, john.allyn@... writes:   Ray --   Great post!   With respect to Red Ball, I've got several of their kits.  The flat castings have saw marks on the back.  If I remember my high school industrial arts (and why don't kids have the benefit of this today?) correctly, type metal for big linotype castings is sawn to match the thickness of the surrounding type.  M. Dale Newton printed all of his card car sides, and the old legend was that he used his linotype machine to make castings.  This may be a manufacturing impossibility, but whatever metal he used it is softer -- "leadier" to coin a word -- than zamac.  It does hold detail beautifully, which, together with printing business, supports the type metal hypothesis, as type metal unlike most metals, expands upon cooling.    John B. Allyn From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:52:10 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show       John and Group,   You may be right, about the zinc alloy (zamak/zamac) being contaminated with tin and/or antimony since many model manufacturers didn't do their own castings, but relied on a metal casting company to do this work for them.  If the model manufacturer casted the parts themselves (and some did), there would be no tin or antimony on the premises and none could find there way into the zinc alloy.  But when these castings were jobbed out to companies that made castings of all types of alloys in their productions, it's easy to see how other metals can get included in this metal mixture -- especially, so if some of those companies used sweepings from the floor to reduce any waste (and reports are that this happened at least on occasion).  With different other metals unintentionally being included in the zamac castings at undetermined intervals, this would point to some batched being contaminated while others were completely pure of foreign metals.    You brought up the mention of the "original German," and to expand on this as concerns zamac, the term which many of you know indicates the various metals that go into this alloy, but the term originally used was "zamak," an acronym indicating zinc, aluminum, magnesium and kupfer (the German name for copper).  As you all know too, zinc is the major portion of this alloy, with aluminum -- of a more or less standard 4% of aluminum being the second metal, of largest content.  As there are five Types of zamac alloy, numbering 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7, they each had different mixtures of these other metals.  To compound that, each of Types of zamac have Codes indicating yet different other mixtures of these metals used in the five Types of zamac.     While aluminum was used with zinc in a "standard" proportion of 4%, that can vary between 3.5% and 4.3%.  Likewise, magnesium can vary between 0.3% and 0.6%; copper can vary between 0% and 3.5%, although a content of between 2.6% and 3.3% is most often used.  Occasionally with certain Codes, nickel will replace the copper.  These different mixtures were used to obtain different strengths and other properties of the alloy.  By this, you can see how some zamac had a higher quality right from the scratch.  We don't know which Type(s) of zamac the model manufacturers used, but it appear they did at least vary somewhat, and then, who's to know if and when a metal casting company contracted by these manufacturers substituted a lower grade zamac -- which wouldn't have become evident until 40 or 50 years later.   When zamac is not contaminated with other metals, it continues to hold up extremely well over time, after the New Jersey Zinc Company perfected its processing of zinc ore to produce a 99.99% pure metal.  Yes, this is the same N.J. Zinc that Ulrich used as a roadname for one of their General Service Gondolas.  Some of us NJ railfans (including myself) used to go out to Franklin and Ogdensburg NJ, to NJ Zinc's mines and photograph the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy which serviced them and brought the ore to Allentown, PA.  We also went out to N.J.'s Palmerton, PA refinery, which was served by the Central RR of PA (a subsidiary of the Central RR of NJ), and later, by the Lehigh Valley RR -- both which brought the ore from Allentown to Palmerton, where ultimately the Chestnut Ridge Rwy brought it to the smelters.  We were often invited into NJ Zinc's offices in both states on these trips and were explained the whole process of making zamac there, which was found to be really interesting.        Tin and antimony were both used together, with lead, to make type metal for the printing trade.  Not only did type foundries use this, but it was used as the casting alloy for Linotype machines; I used to work with it every day, as a printer.  Normally type foundries restricted themselves to only that product, so these metals couldn't have been used in conjunction with zamac at those locations, but then too, there were other model manufacturers (which may have jobbed out there castings needs) which may have been the source of metal contamination in zamac also being used there.  I believe Red Ball may have used such a similar lead alloy, possibly using a portion of one of both of those added metals (tin and/or antimony), albeit not using an actual type metal alloy.  Type metal has a certain hardness to it for strength and durability, while Red Ball's lead alloy is much softer although harder than lead.    Although it does appear that these problems were batch-specific, it also appears that they were era-oriented, as being more prevalent during certain periods when some metals were either unavailable or harder to obtain.  Just as during WW II, copper was more in demand by the defense department during the Korean War to make brass shell casing and the like.   Ray Wetzel   -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Cc: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 14:36:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I haven't seen any zincpest (this is one instance where the original German does justice to the plague) in years.  If I remember correctly. it is the result of tin and antimony (I think) getting into the zinc alloy.   I used to see it a lot in Roundhouse/MDC all metal kits and Cliff Line and early Central Valley trucks.  With the Roundhouse stuff it could be a flaw in the casting process, as I used to see chill marks on the flat castings)  I've got Ulrich kits of the same vintage as Ray's and Vic's (war emergency gons, two bay and three bay hoppers) and haven't had any problems so it may be batch-specific.  The problems seem to appear in "hard" zamac Ulrich cars and various trucks) that may be the giveaway. John B. Allyn From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 8:16:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Rick, Okay, yes Ulrich's composite gons are long also -- I believe, at 52'. Odd that they should be bowed as that's unusual for Ulrich, but it looks like just about any manufacturer's zamac castings may be affected. I wouldn't suggest trying to straighten an Ulrich side as their zamac was a bit harder than MDC's. I don't want to use the term "brittle," as the harder zamac compositions weren't prone to breakage, but the metal is more resistant to someone's trying to bend a warp in the opposite direction to straighten it. When forced beyond it's stress point, it just gives (breaks at it's weakest point) instead of giving in to bending at all. Pays to open every kit box your interested in at a train meet, to make a full inspection. Some dealers frown on opening the boxes because of the chance for losing some parts, but others encourage this knowing it will probably lead to a sale. Just don't drop any parts out of the boxe s unknowingly when you buy them. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21968	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

John,   It looks like Merle explained this completely, when he stated that "the antimony EXPANDS when cooling (while the lead and tin shrink) to hold the dimensions . . . "  -- in his February 21 post.  So, the cooled and finished casting doesn't really change in size at all.  I wasn't sure though, whether you meant that typemetal may expand after time, as zamac will do when the problem of zamac rot/pest sets in.  I understand what you mean now any questions I had with your message has been answered.    BTW, while I didn't want to add too much more to this topic and stray from the group's purpose by posting another message, I'll take this opportunity to just clarify what "20 pound pigs" are in case someone here is still wondering about that one.  It's a long, almost cylinder shaped -- except for its top surface being flat -- ingot of type metal, about 2 1/2 in diameter and approximately 30" long, hung vertically into the melting pot on a chain as material to be used to cast the type or the railroad model parts from.  One long edge is flat because these pigs are originally cast (poured) horizontally and the surface of the casting seeks its own level just as any liquid does.       Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 2/24/2014 10:38:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, john.allyn@... writes:   Ray--   I think that it is more apt to say that it doesn't contract or there is minimal contraction on cooling.  John B. Allyn From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 5:12:39 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   John,   I'm not quite sure where you're going with this "type metal hypothesis."  For starters, I have to doubt that type metal expands when it cools.  If it's in a linotype matrix or ludlow die when it's first injected as a liquid into these form to make type and then cools before being released from these forms, it would have no where to go before being released if it tried to expand.  If however, by chance, it does expand at that time as you're saying, it does not ever expand -- as zamac pest will do -- somewhere into it's useful lifetime.  Typemetal just never does any expanding after it's cast.  Perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly though, as I'm suspecting.      Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 2/19/2014 2:20:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, john.allyn@... writes:   Ray --   Great post!   With respect to Red Ball, I've got several of their kits.  The flat castings have saw marks on the back.  If I remember my high school industrial arts (and why don't kids have the benefit of this today?) correctly, type metal for big linotype castings is sawn to match the thickness of the surrounding type.  M. Dale Newton printed all of his card car sides, and the old legend was that he used his linotype machine to make castings.  This may be a manufacturing impossibility, but whatever metal he used it is softer -- "leadier" to coin a word -- than zamac.  It does hold detail beautifully, which, together with printing business, supports the type metal hypothesis, as type metal unlike most metals, expands upon cooling.    John B. Allyn From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2014 12:52:10 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show       John and Group,   You may be right, about the zinc alloy (zamak/zamac) being contaminated with tin and/or antimony since many model manufacturers didn't do their own castings, but relied on a metal casting company to do this work for them.  If the model manufacturer casted the parts themselves (and some did), there would be no tin or antimony on the premises and none could find there way into the zinc alloy.  But when these castings were jobbed out to companies that made castings of all types of alloys in their productions, it's easy to see how other metals can get included in this metal mixture -- especially, so if some of those companies used sweepings from the floor to reduce any waste (and reports are that this happened at least on occasion).  With different other metals unintentionally being included in the zamac castings at undetermined intervals, this would point to some batched being contaminated while others were completely pure of foreign metals.    You brought up the mention of the "original German," and to expand on this as concerns zamac, the term which many of you know indicates the various metals that go into this alloy, but the term originally used was "zamak," an acronym indicating zinc, aluminum, magnesium and kupfer (the German name for copper).  As you all know too, zinc is the major portion of this alloy, with aluminum -- of a more or less standard 4% of aluminum being the second metal, of largest content.  As there are five Types of zamac alloy, numbering 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7, they each had different mixtures of these other metals.  To compound that, each of Types of zamac have Codes indicating yet different other mixtures of these metals used in the five Types of zamac.     While aluminum was used with zinc in a "standard" proportion of 4%, that can vary between 3.5% and 4.3%.  Likewise, magnesium can vary between 0.3% and 0.6%; copper can vary between 0% and 3.5%, although a content of between 2.6% and 3.3% is most often used.  Occasionally with certain Codes, nickel will replace the copper.  These different mixtures were used to obtain different strengths and other properties of the alloy.  By this, you can see how some zamac had a higher quality right from the scratch.  We don't know which Type(s) of zamac the model manufacturers used, but it appear they did at least vary somewhat, and then, who's to know if and when a metal casting company contracted by these manufacturers substituted a lower grade zamac -- which wouldn't have become evident until 40 or 50 years later.   When zamac is not contaminated with other metals, it continues to hold up extremely well over time, after the New Jersey Zinc Company perfected its processing of zinc ore to produce a 99.99% pure metal.  Yes, this is the same N.J. Zinc that Ulrich used as a roadname for one of their General Service Gondolas.  Some of us NJ railfans (including myself) used to go out to Franklin and Ogdensburg NJ, to NJ Zinc's mines and photograph the Lehigh & Hudson River Rwy which serviced them and brought the ore to Allentown, PA.  We also went out to N.J.'s Palmerton, PA refinery, which was served by the Central RR of PA (a subsidiary of the Central RR of NJ), and later, by the Lehigh Valley RR -- both which brought the ore from Allentown to Palmerton, where ultimately the Chestnut Ridge Rwy brought it to the smelters.  We were often invited into NJ Zinc's offices in both states on these trips and were explained the whole process of making zamac there, which was found to be really interesting.        Tin and antimony were both used together, with lead, to make type metal for the printing trade.  Not only did type foundries use this, but it was used as the casting alloy for Linotype machines; I used to work with it every day, as a printer.  Normally type foundries restricted themselves to only that product, so these metals couldn't have been used in conjunction with zamac at those locations, but then too, there were other model manufacturers (which may have jobbed out there castings needs) which may have been the source of metal contamination in zamac also being used there.  I believe Red Ball may have used such a similar lead alloy, possibly using a portion of one of both of those added metals (tin and/or antimony), albeit not using an actual type metal alloy.  Type metal has a certain hardness to it for strength and durability, while Red Ball's lead alloy is much softer although harder than lead.    Although it does appear that these problems were batch-specific, it also appears that they were era-oriented, as being more prevalent during certain periods when some metals were either unavailable or harder to obtain.  Just as during WW II, copper was more in demand by the defense department during the Korean War to make brass shell casing and the like.   Ray Wetzel   -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Cc: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 14:36:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   I haven't seen any zincpest (this is one instance where the original German does justice to the plague) in years.  If I remember correctly. it is the result of tin and antimony (I think) getting into the zinc alloy.   I used to see it a lot in Roundhouse/MDC all metal kits and Cliff Line and early Central Valley trucks.  With the Roundhouse stuff it could be a flaw in the casting process, as I used to see chill marks on the flat castings)  I've got Ulrich kits of the same vintage as Ray's and Vic's (war emergency gons, two bay and three bay hoppers) and haven't had any problems so it may be batch-specific.  The problems seem to appear in "hard" zamac Ulrich cars and various trucks) that may be the giveaway. John B. Allyn From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 8:16:57 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Rick, Okay, yes Ulrich's composite gons are long also -- I believe, at 52'. Odd that they should be bowed as that's unusual for Ulrich, but it looks like just about any manufacturer's zamac castings may be affected. I wouldn't suggest trying to straighten an Ulrich side as their zamac was a bit harder than MDC's. I don't want to use the term "brittle," as the harder zamac compositions weren't prone to breakage, but the metal is more resistant to someone's trying to bend a warp in the opposite direction to straighten it. When forced beyond it's stress point, it just gives (breaks at it's weakest point) instead of giving in to bending at all. Pays to open every kit box your interested in at a train meet, to make a full inspection. Some dealers frown on opening the boxes because of the chance for losing some parts, but others encourage this knowing it will probably lead to a sale. Just don't drop any parts out of the boxe s unknowingly when you buy them. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21969	From: saddlewood1	Date: 2/24/2014
Subject: Penn Line T-1

Hello, I have worked on the install of the valve gear/hanger/crosshead rods.  I have been at it for two days to install these parts.  Nothing lined up, even after numerous tweakings.  The drivers would rotate about ¾ , and then jam.  Would move in reverse, but not forward.  Finally, I loosened the center fastening of the gear hanger, allowing a small amount of movement while drivers rotate.   Specific question is:      is it necessary to keep the crossheads rods moving?  They have the irritating propensity for falling back out of the of the hanger. If I can fix them in the cylinder, it would make things easier in the overall adjustment. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21970	From: erieberk	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Hi Guys, Years ago, going back as far as the '60's, there was a special (low melting point) solder paste called "Sal-Met" -- an acrynym for "solder all metal -- which was suggested by the NMRA for use on metal alloys used in model railroading; advertised as able to be melted with a match. Probably not available anymore, although new old stock may be up on eBay occasionally -- but I really don't know. There are similar solder pastes (containing their own specific fluxes) available, which also melt at comparatively low temperatures. This line of solder pastes is called "Solder-It" and there are several different formulas of different metals included for soldering different metals and metal alloys. Included in the line are their "CSP-41" containing copper, SP-7 containing silver and ALP-21 (previously ZP-28) containing aluminum/pewter. The last one -- ALP-21 -- may be used for soldering aluminum, pot metal (white metal) and zinc die cast. Has a low melting point of only 395 o F and can be used either with a soldering iron or a small butane hobby torch. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21971	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Attachments : Thanks, Ray. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erieberk@... Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:18 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show     Hi Guys, Years ago, going back as far as the '60's, there was a special (low melting point) solder paste called "Sal-Met" -- an acrynym for "solder all metal -- which was suggested by the NMRA for use on metal alloys used in model railroading; advertised as able to be melted with a match. Probably not available anymore, although new old stock may be up on eBay occasionally -- but I really don't know. There are similar solder pastes (containing their own specific fluxes) available, which also melt at comparatively low temperatures. This line of solder pastes is called "Solder-It" and there are several different formulas of different metals included for soldering different metals and metal alloys. Included in the line are their "CSP-41" containing copper, SP-7 containing silver and ALP-21 (previously ZP-28) containing aluminum/pewter. The last one -- ALP-21 -- may be used for soldering aluminum, pot metal (white metal) and zinc die cast. Has a low melting point of only 395 o F and can be used either with a soldering iron or a small butane hobby torch. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21972	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

Has anyone tried ALP-21 on zamac?  I've got some zamac soldering jobs -- most involve filling ill-considered holes which aren't amenable to repairing with body putty -- but I'm concerned with the zamac melting or becoming distorted.  Any thoughts/advice? Also. there was once (and possibly still is) a flux called Sal-Met which would allow regular solder to be used on zamac.  I never tried it but I'd be interested to learn whether it is still available and how effective it is for this use.   John B. Allyn From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:17:40 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Hi Guys, Years ago, going back as far as the '60's, there was a special (low melting point) solder paste called "Sal-Met" -- an acrynym for "solder all metal -- which was suggested by the NMRA for use on metal alloys used in model railroading; advertised as able to be melted with a match. Probably not available anymore, although new old stock may be up on eBay occasionally -- but I really don't know. There are similar solder pastes (containing their own specific fluxes) available, which also melt at comparatively low temperatures. This line of solder pastes is called "Solder-It" and there are several different formulas of different metals included for soldering different metals and metal alloys. Included in the line are their "CSP-41" containing copper, SP-7 containing silver and ALP-21 (previously ZP-28) containing aluminum/pewter. The last one -- ALP-21 -- may be used for soldering aluminum, pot metal (white metal) and zinc die cast. Has a low melting point of only 395 o F and can be used either with a soldering iron or a small butane hobby torch. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21973	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Today's Finds At The Train Show

John,   I've never used the Solder-It ALP-21 but just thought I'd bring it to the attention of the group since it would seem to fit in with recent discussions on problems with soldering zamac.  The Sal-Met you mention is the same Sal-Met that I mentioned below, in my previous message -- first sentence.  I can't seem to find any availability on it although it could recently be obtained on amazon.com.  As I pointed out, it might be worth doing a search for it on eBay from time to time -- or even put it in there as a standing search.   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 2/25/2014 9:27:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, john.allyn@... writes:   Has anyone tried ALP-21 on zamac?  I've got some zamac soldering jobs -- most involve filling ill-considered holes which aren't amenable to repairing with body putty -- but I'm concerned with the zamac melting or becoming distorted.  Any thoughts/advice? Also. there was once (and possibly still is) a flux called Sal-Met which would allow regular solder to be used on zamac.  I never tried it but I'd be interested to learn whether it is still available and how effective it is for this use.   John B. Allyn From: erieberk@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:17:40 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's Finds At The Train Show   Hi Guys, Years ago, going back as far as the '60's, there was a special (low melting point) solder paste called "Sal-Met" -- an acrynym for "solder all metal -- which was suggested by the NMRA for use on metal alloys used in model railroading; advertised as able to be melted with a match. Probably not available anymore, although new old stock may be up on eBay occasionally -- but I really don't know. There are similar solder pastes (containing their own specific fluxes) available, which also melt at comparatively low temperatures. This line of solder pastes is called "Solder-It" and there are several different formulas of different metals included for soldering different metals and metal alloys. Included in the line are their "CSP-41" containing copper, SP-7 containing silver and ALP-21 (previously ZP-28) containing aluminum/pewter. The last one -- ALP-21 -- may be used for soldering aluminum, pot metal (white metal ) and zinc die cast. Has a low melting point of only 395 o F and can be used either with a soldering iron or a small butane hobby torch. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21974	From: kenrobbins39	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

I have used Sal-Met soldering flux on Zamac a number of times over the years. It works pretty well when soldering brass to Zamac using 60/40 (375º F) solder. However, I find I must apply the heat very slowly using a propane torch in order to keep the syrupy material from boiling off. I've never had success using a soldering iron with it. Too much heat concentrated all at once, I guess. Of course, since the Zamac itself melts at around 600ºF, it can be tricky avoiding a melt-down when using the torch.  My meager supply of Sal-Met is more than 40 years old now and I've never been able to find any more of it. I say it works "pretty well" because in some cases, the solder doesn't flow evenly. I suspect impurities in the Zamac are the cause of this. Great stuff if you can find it! Ken Robbins Hancock, NH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21975	From: luvprr2003	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line T-1

Have worked on lots of Penn Line and Bowser T1s. Wish I had the time to take care of this problem for you but am on board a liner in the South Pacific and it costs a bit to be on line. Good luck with it! Art W -----Original Message----- From: avanti78 <avanti78@...> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 8:59 pm Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line T-1 Hello, I have worked on the install of the valve gear/hanger/crosshead rods.  I have been at it for two days to install these parts.  Nothing lined up, even after numerous tweakings.  The drivers would rotate about ¾ , and then jam.  Would move in reverse, but not forward.  Finally, I loosened the center fastening of the gear hanger, allowing a small amount of movement while drivers rotate.   Specific question is:      is it necessary to keep the crossheads rods moving?  They have the irritating propensity for falling back out of the of the hanger. If I can fix them in the cylinder, it would make things easier in the overall adjustment. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21976	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/25/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line T-1

Attachments : Thanks for the interest, Art. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of luvprr@... Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:27 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Penn Line T-1     Have worked on lots of Penn Line and Bowser T1s. Wish I had the time to take care of this problem for you but am on board a liner in the South Pacific and it costs a bit to be on line. Good luck with it! Art W -----Original Message----- From: avanti78 <avanti78@...> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, Feb 24, 2014 8:59 pm Subject: [vintageHO] Penn Line T-1   Hello, I have worked on the install of the valve gear/hanger/crosshead rods.  I have been at it for two days to install these parts.  Nothing lined up, even after numerous tweakings.  The drivers would rotate about ¾ , and then jam.  Would move in reverse, but not forward.  Finally, I loosened the center fastening of the gear hanger, allowing a small amount of movement while drivers rotate.   Specific question is:      is it necessary to keep the crossheads rods moving?  They have the irritating propensity for falling back out of the of the hanger. If I can fix them in the cylinder, it would make things easier in the overall adjustment. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21977	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Ken, My supply of SalMet disappeared when I loaned it to my father for a project he was working on in the 1970s and it never returned. I think he liked it too much. Later I found that I could come close to duplicating it (at least for white metal/zamac castings) by using a paste phosphoric acid flux (which is a white color) and using a low-melt solder like Carr's. I have never used a torch on a zamac boiler but have used a 40-watt iron with a large tip (that acts as a heat sink) and have been able to solder brass parts to zamac boilers without a problem. You can also solder white metal parts, such as the old Selley detail parts, if you unplug the iron and draw it across a wet sponge to bring the temperature down below the boiling point of water. Matt Coleman ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <kenrobbins39@...> wrote: I have used Sal-Met soldering flux on Zamac a number of times over the years. It works pretty well when soldering brass to Zamac using 60/40 (375º F) solder. However, I find I must apply the heat very slowly using a propane torch in order to keep the syrupy material from boiling off. I've never had success using a soldering iron with it. Too much heat concentrated all at once, I guess. Of course, since the Zamac itself melts at around 600ºF, it can be tricky avoiding a melt-down when using the torch.  My meager supply of Sal-Met is more than 40 years old now and I've never been able to find any more of it. I say it works "pretty well" because in some cases, the solder doesn't flow evenly. I suspect impurities in the Zamac are the cause of this. Great stuff if you can find it! Ken Robbins Hancock, NH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21978	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles

Hi Members,   In browsing back at some past messages earlier today for no particular reason, I happened upon a group of posts related exactly to what we had been discussing here the last few days -- zamac pest.  These were the very posts I made reference to a few days ago, although I didn't think I would be stumbling across them so easily.  Since there's not much else going on here at this time and since they fit right in with this present topic -- even adding much to it -- I'm forwarding them for those members who no longer have access to them (or for new members who may never have seen them), especially as Yahoo's new Neo format makes it virtually impossible to search the archives.  I know that I can't use the Neo homepage for anything and found it to be absolutely useless and restrictive.  These vintageHO posts, which I found still in my mailbox, stem from nearly 4 years ago.    These posts include messages from a good number of members contributing to this subject, but I've picked out only a few of them, albeit some very informative ones.  This topic stretched from May 29, 2010 to June 4, 2010.  For those who want to dig out the rest of these discussions, you now know where to look.  The authors of these past messages include Ken (k4sb), Denny Anspach (danspach), Jay Wanczyk (W Jay W./the_plainsman), Merle Rice (mrrwarhouse) and myself.  I'm certain these members won't mind their posts being included for today's reading as they wouldn't have posted them back then if they didn't want them read.  You'll find that parts of my old message was repeated in different words a day or two ago, but there's stuff I had forgotten about which I'm sure you'll find enlightening.  I'm starting with Ken's message which I found interesting.   Ray Wetzel -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: "Ken" <k4sb@...> Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 21:06:50 -0000 Subject: [vintageHO] Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles   First see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak In the mid 70s I worked for miller S Scale owned by Bob Miller. Bob made an ALCo S2 from 1945-82 We did our own in house casting of the frame and truck frame. We used Zamac provided in 5lb ingots from NJZCo. Around 1979 he started getting some castings returned for replacement. They had started to crumble. We set out to determine why. He had a friend at the local college who was a metallurgist who did an analysis of the metal. He found all the proper metals in the mix. But he also found cadmium. Bob never had that in the shop. But when other jobs at the shop kept the Railroad Dept without manpower he sent the dies to a casting company in East Chicago IN. They also did cadmium plating. So we found out where contamination came from. What we did not know was how much was needed to cause it. Se we setup a test. Bob had several hundred pounds of Zamac in the tool room. We did 5 lb lots. Melted it in the electric furnace and added powdered cadmium. How much cadmium? From 1/2 of one percent to 1/1000 of one percent of 5 lbs. We did 20 heats of various fractional percentages and poured them into a stainless cup shaped mold. We decontaminated the mold prior to each pour. The ingots were cooled and stamped with the percentage of cadmium. These were placed in order on the top shelf of a shelf unit. We checked them once a week. After 5 months the 1/2 of one percent alloy started to swell. At 7 months it crumbled completely. We watched the others. Eventually the top 5 contaminated ingots showed deteoration within 18 months. The next 5, after 3 years showed some corrosion. Bob then sold his business. I took the test home and set them on a shelf. I promptly forgot about them till a couple of years ago. The test was 30 years old and everyone of the remaining 10 with as little as 1/1000 of one percent showed deterioration. So my conclusion is simple. Keep all cadnium away from zamac. It should be noted We did try contamination with Nickle and Chrome. The problem here was the melt point of these metals was so much higher than zamac the zamac oxidized during the melting process. You can try CA put it only penetrates slightly. Theres lots of metal under it. I make a rubber mold and cast a new part. Hope this helps. Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21979	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles

A second message from 2010 I considered well worth looking at again -- from Denny.   Ray Wetzel -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: Denny Anspach <danspach@...> Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 08:57:16 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles   Zincpest is the result of contamination during the casting process resulting from the caster's lack of foreknowledge of what such contamination can and would do so many years into the future. The most common simple narrative as to how such contamination would commonly occur is to relate how the sweepings from the casting floor would be routinely and casually just tossed into the molten mix. Perhaps, this would be done only once a day or so, which might explain why the castings of some batches retain their integrity "forever", while the castings of others progressively decline to dust. Other forms and types of "contamination" obviously have had to occur inasmuch as entire lines of cast objects, e.g. American Flyer O gauge B&O 4-6-2's of c. 1937-39 have gone to dust, while other lines of locomotive castings nominally from the same factory during the same time still show none of the same problems all these years later. The c. 1940 Marklin 4-6-4 mentioned previously: The locomotive body castings on almost all of these models still are solid and intact, while the tender castings are now mostly dust. The majority of MDC castings in my hands have disintegrated over the years, but not all. Running boards are the most notorious, but all castings are vulnerable. Ulrich castings seem almost always to be completely intact all these years later (just one reason why so many Ulrich models are still in high demand by the prototype modeling fraternity). Quite a few early Mantua castings are brittle, but few are falling apart. I have a 1947 wood-boxed kit for a Mantua Pacific. Every single casting in the kit is as shiny, bright, sharp and intact as a brand new silver dollar Relatively few Varney castings have disintegrated, nor have Red Ball- especially the latter. M. Dale Newton was a printer, and I have always thought (admittedly in ignorance) that his castings (and a lot of Varneys) were perhaps better described as lead alloys than Zamac. The Varney experience is especially interesting inasmuch as he reportedly used so many different casting job shops over the years. Contact Cements: The use of GOO has been suggested. GOO, along with some other contact cements, are indeed very strong, very resilient glues that properly applied will hold as strong 50 years from now as days after application, and in this regard they certainly deserve consideration. Keep in mind that such glues are the opposite of ACC in their resistance to shear, and in this regard, joints held with these cements can be tenacious, but at the same time also have relatively little resistance to movement, i.e. motion like a rubber hinge. My own long-time preference for a contact cement is Barge Cement- an old line contact cement marketed for shoe repairs, but also gaining considerable traction by railroad modelers (I have also rescued a number of shoes with it!). Its working time or pot life is much longer than GOO (it takes about 10 minutes to gain "full contact mode" vs. several minutes with GOO). It is thinner and less stringy (I usually apply it through a 0.060" hole drilled in the cap, a hole that is otherwise plugged with a large pin). Its cured strength is legendary. Barge Cement is commonly available at Ace Hardware Stores. The shelf life of an opened tube seems to be about 1-1/2 years max in my hands. Contact cements are like epoxy, however: fully cured, they can only be removed mechanically, with heat helping. Common to the use of all cements, however, is the absolute requirement that the substrate be dry and clean, absolutely clean. Neither ACC, epoxy, nor contact cement will long adhere to unclean, oily, nor unstable surfaces (the most common root cause of cemented joint failure over the years, IMHO). Perhaps more than you wanted to know (:-) Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21980	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion

This past post is from Merle, explaining a few more details of Red Ball production and the metal alloy being used.   Ray Wetzel  -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: Model RailRoad Warehouse <mrrwarehouse@...> Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 08:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [vintageHO] Metal Alloy Discussion   Red Ball castings have historically been made using a lead-tin-antimony alloy. Not Zamac. Impurities, if any, were skimmed in the casting machine and the heat levels did not promote their incorporation into the metal. If not overheated in casting, the parts were not particularly brittle but very high heat (post production) may cause distortion. Howell Day did pick up some parts by other makers from time to time, notably a cast boxcar door by Silver Streak. Any such parts will not have the characteristic cut off ridge on the backside of the casting (round sprues on certain flat car sides, snow plow and crane parts). In the 1980's we did have some parts "spin cast" in a similar alloy due to inherent limitations in production rate of their tooling. These will not have the high luster typical of the parts die cast in metal molds, but will have a remnant of the ridge (or of round sprues on certain flat car sides). Unauthorized [pirate] copies typically attempted to remove traces of the ridge in their mold making. Their alloys would typically be much higher in lead than tin content --much cheaper and less "crisp detail-friendly". Merle Rice Model RR Warehouse

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21981	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles

Jay (W Jay W.) adds some interesting points back then in reply to one of my post, which he researched concerning Red Ball's manufacturing process.   Ray Wetzel -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: Jay Wanczyk <the_plainsman@...> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles   Hi Ray F.W., All,   With my PC under repair, still catching up with the past few day's discussion of the problems with Zamac and thank all for the most thorough discussions I have read, and that is after I did considerable web research on the topic a year or so ago.  I'm printing out many of the comments and posts for my file.   The only information I can add at this point, Ray, is that you were exactly right about the printing equipment used by M. Dale Newton at Red Ball.  Here is an excerpt from an undated article on Red Ball published circa 1950 in a "Popular" general interest magazine outlining Red Ball's manufacturing process:   "...From the detailed drawings and specifications, each piece of this whole passenger car is "blown up" to 24 times HO scale on the drafting board.  This is then put on a special machine called the Gorton Engraving Pantograph.  From this drawing, an exact reproduction is reduced to eight times HO scale and routed on a flat piece of metal called the "master copy."  This metal "master copy" is then further reduced to the HO scale,, and engraved on a brass die, which is placed in a Ludlow typecasting machine which diecasts the train parts."   Two of the accompanying illustrations show setting up a Red Ball truck die on the Gorton and diecasting parts on the Ludlow.  I am pursuing obtaining permission to get permission from the copyright owner to include it in a Red Ball article or failing that, at least share it here in our limited group pages, if not on HO Seeker.   My second thought were that certain manufacturers, such as Chapper of Hobbytown of Boston, obviously took care to ensure that their product was made from likely NJ Zinc Co. product under strict quality control.  Others, interested in making models at a price, were content to buy from the lowest priced casting house, either ignorant of the problem or worse, knew but did not care.  Many of the Varney Docksiders and freight cars of the Kramer era are notorious for their deteriorating frames, resulting in severly damaged plastic body castings as the metal swells.  I'm sure more than a few unethical casters also took a short cut and did not purchase ingots from NJ Zinc and used substitute material, but saying they used only the best.   W Jay W.           From: "erieberk@wmconnect .com" <erieberk@wmconnect. com> To: vintageHO@yahoogrou ps.com Sent: Sun, May 30, 2010 4:39:06 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles   I would not doubt the use of lead alloys instead of zamac being used by M. Dale Newton/Red Ball as an extreme possiblity for use in hs parts, since realizing he was a printer. In general, Red Ball castings are on the "soft" side as opposed to harder zamac castings. Similar lead alloys may well have been used by Albert Mercer. K. Lynwood Stauffer and Robert Faust (Penn Line) and also by Lew English who continued their line, as many of these castings are not as "hard" as zamac, although not as soft as Red Ball castings.      Ray F. W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21982	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles

Lastly, I'm posting a message of mine from 5/31/10 during those earlier discussions.  While this one includes some very similar material which I've repeated recently, there's a good deal of other material that helps us understand the zinc pest problem.  For this reason, I thought it best not to cut it up or just send pieces.  Any certain grade(s) of type metal I've singled out as being better than any other(s) for model railroad parts manufacturing purposes was strictly my own opinion and in retrospect may not necessarily hold true.   Ray Wetzel  -----Original Message----- To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: erieberk@... Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 16:39:06 EDT Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles   I would not doubt the use of lead alloys instead of zamac being used by M. Dale Newton/Red Ball as an extreme possiblity for use in hs parts, since realizing he was a printer. In general, Red Ball castings are on the "soft" side as opposed to harder zamac castings. Similar lead alloys may well have been used by Albert Mercer. K. Lynwood Stauffer and Robert Faust (Penn Line) and also by Lew English who continued their line, as many of these castings are not as "hard" as zamac, although not as soft as Red Ball castings. Type-metal alloys of lead were poured in various quanties of companion metals, depending upon their use, and determining their hardness, durability and detailing/molding ability. That type-metal used in casting foundry type consists of 18% tin, 28% antimony and 54% lead, while the type-metal used for casting slugs of cast type in Ludlow and Linotype machines consists of only 3% tin, 11% antimony and 86% lead. The tin makes it durable with the antimony hardens it. There were three other grades for different applications in printing, but the foundry type metal would have been best for modeling purposes. Occasionally, copper was sometimes added to create type being used for long runs of printing. I've used this myself at times, for uniting (unifying) broken frames with excellent results when casting them in clay molds (I'm a retired printer). Zamac (or, "Zamak") for use in the model railroad industry consists primarily of zinc with a mixture of from 3.9% to 4.5% aluminum, 0.02% to 0.05% copper (1% to 3% copper for costume jewelry) and up to 0.06% magnesium. As Ken points out, Zamak was originally produced by New Jersey Zinc (starting in 1929), and it was offered in varying grades -- ZA2, ZA3, ZA5, ZA7 and ZA8, etc. Of these, there are varying mixes of these grades, at different price ranges. The ZA5 is the alloy mixture used mostly for model railroading manufacturing; very similar to the ZA3 that was first used for this application. It consists of from 3.9% to 4.5% aluminum, from 0.02% to 0.05% copper and up to 0.06% magnesium added to the main metal -- zinc. Other grades have increasingly higher amounts, with ZA2 having 3.0 % copper increasing it's strength by 20 X, and ZA8 having 8% aluminum -- but both at a much increased cost. As zinc is mined in its natural state, it can contain the very impurities we have been talking about. Zamak only needs to contain 0.008% lead and 0.006% cadmium to promote "zincpest." Raw zinc may contain as much as 0.05% lead and 0.02% cadmium (right from the mine). When compared to the previous numbers and to the  similar numbers Jim supplied, we can see how Zamak could have been a problem in model railroad parts castings if the manufacturer chose to go the "economy route," even before contaminating it from floor sweepings. The occasional tin foil (used for sealing cigarette packs) finding their way into the melting pots didn't help matters though, as they used real tin back then for wrappers. As it was cheap, tin foil was today's aluminum foil. The zinc eventually used by NJ Zinc in their ZA3 (recommended for model castings, and used by the more reputable manufacturers) was 99.993% pure and free of contaminants, which allowed for the best quality castings free of future zincpest. It seems, that while this purity of zinc is a necessity for zincpest-free Zamak, it's also the addition of the magnesium which is especially needed in keeping the Zamak zincpest-free. Incidentally, "Zamak" is an acronym for: Z=zinc, A=Aluminum, MA=Magnesium and K=Kupfer (Copper -- in German). New Jersey Zinc's mines in Franklin, NJ had produced most of the zinc ore for commercial applications, even up through the early 1920's, but it was found that their nearby Sterling Hill Mine in Ogdensburg, NJ (only a couple of miles south) produced the purer 99.99% zinc ore necessary for the grade of Zamak for model railroad castings -- if the manufacturer agreed on buying this grade. Both sources were shipped via the Lehigh & Hudson River Railway to Pennsylvania, for delivery by the CNJ's Pennsylvania division to NJ Zinc's refinery in Palmerton, PA, although that ore coming from Ogdensburg first had to be shipped to Franklin via the NYS&W, then on the L&H. BTW, I have all the operations of this documented (35 years ago) in photographs and have supplied color slides to Richard Hauck (pres.) for his use in his Sterling Hill Newsletter magazine -- the mine now being a museum after closing operations at least 20 years ago or more. The L&HR is a particular northeast favorite of mine which I spent many days (over many years) photographing. There have been other alloys used for model castings, although not extensively used in model railroading. One of these was white metal (not to be confused with zamac, even though some people use the name interchangeably); its a mixture of 91.5% to 92.5% tin, 2.9% to 3.1% antimony, 1.4% to 1.6& cadmium and 3.3% to 3.7% lead. The term, "pot metal" is sometimes also confused with white metal, but can consist of any of the metals mentioned above in no particular proportions, far different from white metal. They were both used for casting toy automobiles. Ray F.W. </HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21983	From: louis niederlander	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles

To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com From: eriepacific@... Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 09:24:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Zamak / Zamac Why it crumbles For reference, if you see a manufacturer's mark on AF die cast equipment that looks like a dog bone, that would be Doehler Jarvis.  These pieces are usually robust parts.   So far, anyway.   And I do have a few pieces I save for explanation purposes that go every way except straight.   Regards,   Louis N       Other forms and types of "contamination" obviously have had to occur inasmuch as entire lines of cast objects, e.g. American Flyer O gauge B&O 4-6-2's of c. 1937-39 have gone to dust, while other lines of locomotive castings nominally from the same factory during the same time still show none of the same problems all these years later. Perhaps more than you wanted to know (:-) Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21984	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

I hunted for a new product and this may be the liquid version of the old Sal-Met flux. http://www.aladdin3in1.com/products/flux/soldering-flux.php Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Feb 26, 2014, at 6:04 AM, mattjcoleman@... wrote: Ken, My supply of SalMet disappeared when I loaned it to my father for a project he was working on in the 1970s and it never returned. I think he liked it too much. Later I found that I could come close to duplicating it (at least for white metal/zamac castings) by using a paste phosphoric acid flux (which is a white color) and using a low-melt solder like Carr's. I have never used a torch on a zamac boiler but have used a 40-watt iron with a large tip (that acts as a heat sink) and have been able to solder brass parts to zamac boilers without a problem. You can also solder white metal parts, such as the old Selley detail parts, if you unplug the iron and draw it across a wet sponge to bring the temperature down below the boiling point of water. Matt Coleman ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <kenrobbins39@...> wrote: I have used Sal-Met soldering flux on Zamac a number of times over the years. It works pretty well when soldering brass to Zamac using 60/40 (375º F) solder. However, I find I must apply the heat very slowly using a propane torch in order to keep the syrupy material from boiling off. I've never had success using a soldering iron with it. Too much heat concentrated all at once, I guess. Of course, since the Zamac itself melts at around 600ºF, it can be tricky avoiding a melt-down when using the torch.  My meager supply of Sal-Met is more than 40 years old now and I've never been able to find any more of it. I say it works "pretty well" because in some cases, the solder doesn't flow evenly. I suspect impurities in the Zamac are the cause of this. Great stuff if you can find it! Ken Robbins Hancock, NH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21985	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Mike, From what I can read on the label, I think you are correct. I prefer the paste, but this should also work. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <mwbauers55@...> wrote: I hunted for a new product and this may be the liquid version of the old Sal-Met flux. http://www.aladdin3in1.com/products/flux/soldering-flux.php Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Feb 26, 2014, at 6:04 AM, mattjcoleman@... wrote: Ken, My supply of SalMet disappeared when I loaned it to my father for a project he was working on in the 1970s and it never returned. I think he liked it too much. Later I found that I could come close to duplicating it (at least for white metal/zamac castings) by using a paste phosphoric acid flux (which is a white color) and using a low-melt solder like Carr's. I have never used a torch on a zamac boiler but have used a 40-watt iron with a large tip (that acts as a heat sink) and have been able to solder brass parts to zamac boilers without a problem. You can also solder white metal parts, such as the old Selley detail parts, if you unplug the iron and draw it across a wet sponge to bring the temperature down below the boiling point of water. Matt Coleman ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <kenrobbins39@...> wrote: I have used Sal-Met soldering flux on Zamac a number of times over the years. It works pretty well when soldering brass to Zamac using 60/40 (375º F) solder. However, I find I must apply the heat very slowly using a propane torch in order to keep the syrupy material from boiling off. I've never had success using a soldering iron with it. Too much heat concentrated all at once, I guess. Of course, since the Zamac itself melts at around 600ºF, it can be tricky avoiding a melt-down when using the torch.  My meager supply of Sal-Met is more than 40 years old now and I've never been able to find any more of it. I say it works "pretty well" because in some cases, the solder doesn't flow evenly. I suspect impurities in the Zamac are the cause of this. Great stuff if you can find it! Ken Robbins Hancock, NH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21986	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion

On 27/02/14 3:25, eriepacific@... wrote: > > > This past post is from Merle, explaining a few more details of Red Ball > production and the metal alloy being used. > > Ray Wetzel Hello Ray. This is a problem well-known in many model and collecting groups. The metal is known as 'Mazac' in the UK. It was a severe problem with some British manufactured items, notably the famous Dinky Toys produced by Meccano Ltd. There are reports of rare prewar models being dropped and crumbling into powder. There are also problems with some of the Japanese Sakai o-gauge tinplate trains. As an example - I received a dismantled O-gauge streamliner, picked up the body to check it internally for cracks or flaws, which then broke into halves, lengthways, in my hands! It will be a major repair job! May I have your permission to post some of these earlier messages to one or two collectors groups to which I belong? I moderate the yahoo Sakai and Seki group, which has also been discussing this topic recently. Names will be cut back to first names only, so no problems there.. Many Thanks.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21987	From: greenbrier614	Date: 2/26/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Micro-Mark has this electroplating kit that supposedly allows soldering of Zamac via the copper plating. I don't know of anyone who's tried it, though http://www.micromark.com/copper-plating-kit-for-die-cast-and-steel,8419.html Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <kenrobbins39@...> wrote: I have used Sal-Met soldering flux on Zamac a number of times over the years. It works pretty well when soldering brass to Zamac using 60/40 (375º F) solder. However, I find I must apply the heat very slowly using a propane torch in order to keep the syrupy material from boiling off. I've never had success using a soldering iron with it. Too much heat concentrated all at once, I guess. Of course, since the Zamac itself melts at around 600ºF, it can be tricky avoiding a melt-down when using the torch.  My meager supply of Sal-Met is more than 40 years old now and I've never been able to find any more of it. I say it works "pretty well" because in some cases, the solder doesn't flow evenly. I suspect impurities in the Zamac are the cause of this. Great stuff if you can find it! Ken Robbins Hancock, NH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21988	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Nelson, This is probably the ideal way to go, but given that it adds several steps and costs money will probably limit its use but if I were a custom builder or did a lot of work with diecast locomotives I would invest in this. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <greenbrier614@...> wrote: Micro-Mark has this electroplating kit that supposedly allows soldering of Zamac via the copper plating. I don't know of anyone who's tried it, though http://www.micromark.com/copper-plating-kit-for-die-cast-and-steel,8419.html Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21989	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion

Hello Doug,   Looks like die casting problems were universal.  I wasn't aware that Dinky Toys was included in this issue though as they always seemed sturdier made and extremely well manufactured.  Not to get too far off topic here, I remember having some of these "toys" to enjoy when I was a kid of that age to use in play, around 1946 or 1947.  They were premier toys back then, and were fairly highly priced which is why I never had many.  I remember having a Sunbeam-Talbot, Armstrong Siddeley, Lagonda and Jaguar -- might have had just a couple more.  Even a few years later, I obtain the Hudson Hornet and the '50 Ford Sedan, bought then with my allowance.  Still have several of them somewhere around the house, including the Ford and the Lagonda.  Besides vehicles, Dinky also made other models like Hawker Hurricanes and Spitfires as well as tanks and howitzers, etc.  They made small trains too, but here in the States we had cast metal TootsieToy trains which were much less expensive as play toys for children to destroy < g >.    Too bad about your Sakai streamliner.  That's a real setback when you pay good money for a collectable, only to see it crumble.  Bonding these jig-saw puzzles back together may not restore their collectable value, but at least you have something to display.   You have my permission to repost only my messages (I can't speak for others who've also posted on this subject) -- but even then -- you need to ask this list's owner (Don) for permission to repost anything from this group somewhere else.  I know that Yahoo does not allow forwarding and Yahoogroup messages from one group to anther, and by that I don't mean that you need to seek permission from them to forward messages; it simply won't go through if you try.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 2/27/2014 12:42:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, digbee@... writes:   On 27/02/14 3:25, eriepacific@... wrote: > > > This past post is from Merle, explaining a few more details of Red Ball > production and the metal alloy being used. > > Ray Wetzel Hello Ray. This is a problem well-known in many model and collecting groups. The metal is known as 'Mazac' in the UK. It was a severe problem with some British manufactured items, notably the famous Dinky Toys produced by Meccano Ltd. There are reports of rare prewar models being dropped and crumbling into powder. There are also problems with some of the Japanese Sakai o-gauge tinplate trains. As an example - I received a dismantled O-gauge streamliner, picked up the body to check it internally for cracks or flaws, which then broke into halves, lengthways, in my hands! It will be a major repair job! May I have your permission to post some of these earlier messages to one or two collectors groups to which I belong? I moderate the yahoo Sakai and Seki group, which has also been discussing this topic recently. Names will be cut back to first names only, so no problems there.. Many Thanks.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21990	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

This actually makes sense and would allow soldering to the plating.  It wouldn't be useful for drilling into the zamac and soldering, but soldering to the surface of the plated zamac. It would be interesting to hear from someone who actually tried this.  So far, I haven't had a large need to solder to the surface.  I always use the drill/tap method to get apiece of brass into the zamac for soldering.  Mostly, I just use CA to adhere details after I drilled a hole for mounting. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: greenbrier614@... Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 22:08:17 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] RE: Zamac & Sal-Met flux   Micro-Mark has this electroplating kit that supposedly allows soldering of Zamac via the copper plating. I don't know of anyone who's tried it, though http://www.micromark.com/copper-plating-kit-for-die-cast-and-steel,8419.html Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <kenrobbins39@...> wrote: I have used Sal-Met soldering flux on Zamac a number of times over the years. It works pretty well when soldering brass to Zamac using 60/40 (375º F) solder. However, I find I must apply the heat very slowly using a propane torch in order to keep the syrupy material from boiling off. I've never had success using a soldering iron with it. Too much heat concentrated all at once, I guess. Of course, since the Zamac itself melts at around 600ºF, it can be tricky avoiding a melt-down when using the torch.  My meager supply of Sal-Met is more than 40 years old now and I've never been able to find any more of it. I say it works "pretty well" because in some cases, the solder doesn't flow evenly. I suspect impurities in the Zamac are the cause of this. Great stuff if you can find it! Ken Robbins Hancock, NH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21991	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion

The name escapes me. But there was an early diecast model railroad maker of the first couple of decades of the last century where almost none of their work survived. All of the pieces disintegrated from a bad casting alloy mix. I don't believe any of their work survived intact past the 1960's. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Feb 27, 2014, at 8:12 AM, eriepacific@... wrote: > > > Hello Doug, > > Looks like die casting problems were universal. I wasn't aware that Dinky Toys was included in this issue though as they always seemed sturdier made and extremely well manufactured. Not to get too far off topic here, I remember having some of these "toys" to enjoy when I was a kid of that age to use in play, around 1946 or 1947. ....................... > > Too bad about your Sakai streamliner. That's a real setback when you pay good money for a collectable, only to see it crumble. Bonding these jig-saw puzzles back together may not restore their collectable value, but at least you have something to display. ............. > > Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21992	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion

Dorfan?  Carstens, a big toy train collector, mentioned this a couple of times in RMC.  Or Louis Hertz.  John B. Allyn From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 11:21:00 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Metal Alloy Discussion   The name escapes me. But there was an early diecast model railroad maker of the first couple of decades of the last century where almost none of their work survived. All of the pieces disintegrated from a bad casting alloy mix. I don't believe any of their work survived intact past the 1960's. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Feb 27, 2014, at 8:12 AM, eriepacific@... wrote: > > > Hello Doug, > > Looks like die casting problems were universal. I wasn't aware that Dinky Toys was included in this issue though as they always seemed sturdier made and extremely well manufactured. Not to get too far off topic here, I remember having some of these "toys" to enjoy when I was a kid of that age to use in play, around 1946 or 1947. ....................... > > Too bad about your Sakai streamliner. That's a real setback when you pay good money for a collectable, only to see it crumble. Bonding these jig-saw puzzles back together may not restore their collectable value, but at least you have something to display. ............. > > Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21993	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion

Dorfan is the one! Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Feb 27, 2014, at 12:39 PM, john.allyn@... wrote: > > > Dorfan? Carstens, a big toy train collector, mentioned this a couple of times in RMC. Or Louis Hertz. > > John B. Allyn > > > From: "Mike Bauers" > The name escapes me. > > But there was an early diecast model railroad maker of the first couple of decades of the last century where almost none of their work survived. All of the pieces disintegrated from a bad casting alloy mix. I don't believe any of their work survived intact past the 1960's.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21994	From: Doug Harris	Date: 2/27/2014
Subject: Metal Alloy Discussion - Message for Owner Don..

On 28/02/14 3:12, eriepacific@... wrote: > Hello Doug, > > Looks like die casting problems were universal. I wasn't aware that Dinky > Toys was included in this issue though as they always seemed sturdier made > and extremely well manufactured. Not to get too far off topic here, I > remember having some of these "toys" to enjoy when I was a kid of that age to > use in play, around 1946 or 1947. They were premier toys back then, and > were fairly highly priced which is why I never had many. I remember having a > Sunbeam-Talbot, Armstrong Siddeley, Lagonda and Jaguar -- might have had > just a couple more. Even a few years later, I obtain the Hudson Hornet and > the '50 Ford Sedan, bought then with my allowance. Still have several of > them somewhere around the house, including the Ford and the Lagonda. > Besides vehicles, Dinky also made other models like Hawker Hurricanes and > Spitfires as well as tanks and howitzers, etc. They made small trains too, but > here in the States we had cast metal TootsieToy trains which were much less > expensive as play toys for children to destroy< g>. > > Too bad about your Sakai streamliner. That's a real setback when you pay > good money for a collectable, only to see it crumble. Bonding these > jig-saw puzzles back together may not restore their collectable value, but at > least you have something to display. > > You have my permission to repost only my messages (I can't speak for > others who've also posted on this subject) -- but even then -- you need to ask > this list's owner (Don) for permission to repost anything from this group > somewhere else. I know that Yahoo does not allow forwarding and Yahoogroup > messages from one group to anther, and by that I don't mean that you need to > seek permission from them to forward messages; it simply won't go through > if you try. > > Ray Wetzel > > > > In a message dated 2/27/2014 12:42:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > digbee@... writes: > > > > > On 27/02/14 3:25, eriepacific@... wrote: >> >> >> This past post is from Merle, explaining a few more details of Red Ball >> production and the metal alloy being used. >> >> Ray Wetzel > > Hello Ray. > > This is a problem well-known in many model and collecting groups. The > metal is known as 'Mazac' in the UK. It was a severe problem with some > British manufactured items, notably the famous Dinky Toys produced by > Meccano Ltd. There are reports of rare prewar models being dropped and > crumbling into powder. > > There are also problems with some of the Japanese Sakai o-gauge tinplate > trains. As an example - I received a dismantled O-gauge streamliner, > picked up the body to check it internally for cracks or flaws, which > then broke into halves, lengthways, in my hands! It will be a major > repair job! > > May I have your permission to post some of these earlier messages to one > or two collectors groups to which I belong? I moderate the yahoo Sakai > and Seki group, which has also been discussing this topic recently. > > Names will be cut back to first names only, so no problems there.. > > Many Thanks.. Hello Ray/Don Ray - Many Thanks for your prompt reply.. Firstly re the Japanese Sakai body - I have about 5 or 6 of these locos in various conditions, and different variations of the livery, and in some cases, non-livery, so things are not too bad! Interestingly some were decaled: Sakai s' Standade Model [sic] along the footboard - 3 spelling mistakes in 3 words! And in only one case does the shade of blue paint on the tender even come close matching the loco! On another model, the lettering was 'Hutton and Pacific' instead of 'Hudson and Pacific' which adds to the collectablity for us Japanese tinplate freaks.. (I moderate the Sakai_Seki yahoo group).. However, getting very OT here. Re the Zamac saga - Don, if you are reading this, would you please contact me to OK or otherwise? Off-group is fine. Or if someone has an address for Don, would you please contact him (or me) to let him know? My plan is to copy the postings into a word processing program, edit as necessary, and post from there, so there will be no problems with forwarding, or identifying the authors (although I would prefer to include their first names, as thanks and for source attribution). Many Thanks.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21995	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion - Message for Owner Don..

Doug,   We can be fairly sure that this list's owner (Don Dellman) probably reads every Vintage HO group message being posted, even though most of us are off moderating status.  Just in case he misses a few, like maybe this current thread, you should be able to reach him at < vintageHO-owner at yahoogroups.com >.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 2/27/2014 9:31:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, digbee@... writes:   On 28/02/14 3:12, eriepacific@... wrote: > Hello Doug, > > Looks like die casting problems were universal. I wasn't aware that Dinky > Toys was included in this issue though as they always seemed sturdier made > and extremely well manufactured. Not to get too far off topic here, I > remember having some of these "toys" to enjoy when I was a kid of that age to > use in play, around 1946 or 1947. They were premier toys back then, and > were fairly highly priced which is why I never had many. I remember having a > Sunbeam-Talbot, Armstrong Siddeley, Lagonda and Jaguar -- might have had > just a couple more. Even a few years later, I obtain the Hudson Hornet and > the '50 Ford Sedan, bought then with my allowance. Still have several of > them somewhere around the house, including the Ford and the Lagonda. > Besides vehicles, Dinky also made other models like Hawker Hurricanes and > Spitfires as well as tanks and howitzers, etc. They made small trains too, but > here in the States we had cast metal TootsieToy trains which were much less > expensive as play toys for children to destroy< g>. > > Too bad about your Sakai streamliner. That's a real setback when you pay > good money for a collectable, only to see it crumble. Bonding these > jig-saw puzzles back together may not restore their collectable value, but at > least you have something to display. > > You have my permission to repost only my messages (I can't speak for > others who've also posted on this subject) -- but even then -- you need to ask > this list's owner (Don) for permission to repost anything from this group > somewhere else. I know that Yahoo does not allow forwarding and Yahoogroup > messages from one group to anther, and by that I don't mean that you need to > seek permission from them to forward messages; it simply won't go through > if you try. > > Ray Wetzel > > > > In a message dated 2/27/2014 12:42:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > digbee@... writes: > > > > > On 27/02/14 3:25, eriepacific@... wrote: >> >> >> This past post is from Merle, explaining a few more details of Red Ball >> production and the metal alloy being used. >> >> Ray Wetzel > > Hello Ray. > > This is a problem well-known in many model and collecting groups. The > metal is known as 'Mazac' in the UK. It was a severe problem with some > British manufactured items, notably the famous Dinky Toys produced by > Meccano Ltd. There are reports of rare prewar models being dropped and > crumbling into powder. > > There are also problems with some of the Japanese Sakai o-gauge tinplate > trains. As an example - I received a dismantled O-gauge streamliner, > picked up the body to check it internally for cracks or flaws, which > then broke into halves, lengthways, in my hands! It will be a major > repair job! > > May I have your permission to post some of these earlier messages to one > or two collectors groups to which I belong? I moderate the yahoo Sakai > and Seki group, which has also been discussing this topic recently. > > Names will be cut back to first names only, so no problems there.. > > Many Thanks.. Hello Ray/Don Ray - Many Thanks for your prompt reply.. Firstly re the Japanese Sakai body - I have about 5 or 6 of these locos in various conditions, and different variations of the livery, and in some cases, non-livery, so things are not too bad! Interestingly some were decaled: Sakai s' Standade Model [sic] along the footboard - 3 spelling mistakes in 3 words! And in only one case does the shade of blue paint on the tender even come close matching the loco! On another model, the lettering was 'Hutton and Pacific' instead of 'Hudson and Pacific' which adds to the collectablity for us Japanese tinplate freaks.. (I moderate the Sakai_Seki yahoo group).. However, getting very OT here. Re the Zamac saga - Don, if you are reading this, would you please contact me to OK or otherwise? Off-group is fine. Or if someone has an address for Don, would you please contact him (or me) to let him know? My plan is to copy the postings into a word processing program, edit as necessary, and post from there, so there will be no problems with forwarding, or identifying the authors (although I would prefer to include their first names, as thanks and for source attribution). Many Thanks.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21996	From: greenbrier614	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Matt & Vic, Obviously we need us a guinea pig to try this. <g> I've been curious about how well the plating process works since it came out a few years ago. It definitely involves a significant investment, so if the plating ended up spotty or flaky I wouldn't be a happy customer. It would be nice if they posted some testimonials under the listing. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21997	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Yeah, I don't know enough about metallurgy to understand if that can really work very well.  Considering the various possible problems with zama, IE. zinc pest, corrosion, etc.  I would guess it may work sometimes and not very well other times.  I am not sure I would want to count on it and spend a lot of time detailing a locomotive with a plated surface unless I heard a lot of positive reviews.  According to the Micro Mark blurb, they plated the zamac using copper.   If you do a Google search on copper plating, you will find numerous Youtube hits showing all kinds of DIY copper plating methods with very low/no investment at all using copper wire, pennies, etc. and household chemicals, plus a power pack or battery.  That may be a worthwhile experiment? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: greenbrier614@... Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:30:31 -0800 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] RE: Zamac & Sal-Met flux   Matt & Vic, Obviously we need us a guinea pig to try this. <g> I've been curious about how well the plating process works since it came out a few years ago. It definitely involves a significant investment, so if the plating ended up spotty or flaky I wouldn't be a happy customer. It would be nice if they posted some testimonials under the listing. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21998	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

I would guess that in plating a cast zamac locomotive, that its surface needs to be prepared just as pristine as when you paint it so that there are no oils, etc., on the surface preventing the copper it solution from being in contact with the zamac.  If this precaution is not taken, you can expect any degree of spottiness wherever the electrolyte solution was prevented from contacting the zamac.  As for flaking, the copper's either going to firmly adhere to the zamac, as being bonded (plated) or it's not going to adhere at all, depending on whether any oils were still present on the shell.  Plating won't prevent zinc pest but may help hold the casting together if it's not too bad.  A bad zinc pest problem can really distort a casting badly though, and plating can't prevent that.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 2/28/2014 10:16:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bitlerisvj@... writes:   Yeah, I don't know enough about metallurgy to understand if that can really work very well.  Considering the various possible problems with zama, IE. zinc pest, corrosion, etc.  I would guess it may work sometimes and not very well other times.  I am not sure I would want to count on it and spend a lot of time detailing a locomotive with a plated surface unless I heard a lot of positive reviews.  According to the Micro Mark blurb, they plated the zamac using copper.   If you do a Google search on copper plating, you will find numerous Youtube hits showing all kinds of DIY copper plating methods with very low/no investment at all using copper wire, pennies, etc. and household chemicals, plus a power pack or battery.  That may be a worthwhile experiment? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: greenbrier614@... Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:30:31 -0800 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] RE: Zamac & Sal-Met flux   Matt & Vic, Obviously we need us a guinea pig to try this. <g> I've been curious about how well the plating process works since it came out a few years ago. It definitely involves a significant investment, so if the plating ended up spotty or flaky I wouldn't be a happy customer. It would be nice if they posted some testimonials under the listing. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 21999	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Consider that you will be soldering to the plating and not the underlying mass of the castings. It is much like painting the cast body with a high tech epoxy paint and then attaching additional parts to that thin layer of epoxy. There is a point where the plating or epoxy paint will separate from the underlying casting and peel off from mechanical forces, taking your added parts with it. It will hold up until that point. In accordance with the physical laws of forces and materials, it would be much stronger to embed studs of a solder able metal into the castings and solder to those, or to file some crude thread or valleys into the studs of the casting and parts to be added and then epoxy mount that into the base cast model. A cut off brass screw epoxied into the cast body and then the added part soldered or epoxied to that would be a very strong attachment that would last much longer than soldering to a thin plating.   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Feb 28, 2014, at 9:46 AM, eriepacific@... wrote: I would guess that in plating a cast zamac locomotive, that its surface needs to be prepared just as pristine as when you paint it so that there are no oils, etc., on the surface preventing the copper it solution from being in contact with the zamac.  If this precaution is not taken, you can expect any degree of spottiness wherever the electrolyte solution was prevented from contacting the zamac.  As for flaking, the copper's either going to firmly adhere to the zamac, as being bonded (plated) or it's not going to adhere at all, depending on whether any oils were still present on the shell.  Plating won't prevent zinc pest but may help hold the casting together if it's not too bad.  A bad zinc pest problem can really distort a casting badly though, and plating can't prevent that.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 2/28/2014 10:16:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bitlerisvj@... writes:   Yeah, I don't know enough about metallurgy to understand if that can really work very well.  Considering the various possible problems with zama, IE. zinc pest, corrosion, etc.  I would guess it may work sometimes and not very well other times.  I am not sure I would want to count on it and spend a lot of time detailing a locomotive with a plated surface unless I heard a lot of positive reviews.  According to the Micro Mark blurb, they plated the zamac using copper.   If you do a Google search on copper plating, you will find numerous Youtube hits showing all kinds of DIY copper plating methods with very low/no investment at all using copper wire, pennies, etc. and household chemicals, plus a power pack or battery.  That may be a worthwhile experiment? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: greenbrier614@... Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:30:31 -0800 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] RE: Zamac & Sal-Met flux   Matt & Vic, Obviously we need us a guinea pig to try this. <g> I've been curious about how well the plating process works since it came out a few years ago. It definitely involves a significant investment, so if the plating ended up spotty or flaky I wouldn't be a happy customer. It would be nice if they posted some testimonials under the listing. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22000	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Hi Mike, That is exactly what I do.  It works so much better than trying to epoxy to the side of casting.  Actually if you drill and tap, then coat the screw with flux, heat and solder and screw it in while the solder is hot, it will hold really tight as well.   After it has cooled, cut off the head and file it down to the surface as needed.  I had not tried epoxy, but I bet that would also work.  I would not use CA for this, because subsequent soldering would release the CA and there would be nothing holding the screw in. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 10:35:33 -0600 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE: Zamac & Sal-Met flux In accordance with the physical laws of forces and materials, it would be much stronger to embed studs of a solder able metal into the castings and solder to those, or to file some crude thread or valleys into the studs of the casting and parts to be added and then epoxy mount that into the base cast model. A cut off brass screw epoxied into the cast body and then the added part soldered or epoxied to that would be a very strong attachment that would last much longer than soldering to a thin plating.   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22001	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion - Message for Owner Don..

Attachments : Well, Ray, I had a 1954 Hudson Hornet; pistons the size of coffee cans.  Very impressively built and finished.  I had a 1946 Ford convertible, in primer, with a Buick Special engine in it.  Then I had a ’54 Studebaker 6 Coupe, followed by my all-time favorite a 1978 Avanti II, with a 350cu, then a 1965 Corvair Corsa convertible.  And now, I’m left with only my 1997 Trans Am, 6 speed, and a number of ‘sweeteners’. OK, OK, Ray, you weren’t writing about these kind of cars. Cheers, Denis     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 8:06 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Metal Alloy Discussion - Message for Owner Don..     On 28/02/14 3:12, eriepacific@... wrote: > Hello Doug, > > Looks like die casting problems were universal. I wasn't aware that Dinky > Toys was included in this issue though as they always seemed sturdier made > and extremely well manufactured. Not to get too far off topic here, I > remember having some of these "toys" to enjoy when I was a kid of that age to > use in play, around 1946 or 1947. They were premier toys back then, and > were fairly highly priced which is why I never had many. I remember having a > Sunbeam-Talbot, Armstrong Siddeley, Lagonda and Jaguar -- might have had > just a couple more. Even a few years later, I obtain the Hudson Hornet and > the '50 Ford Sedan, bought then with my allowance. Still have several of > them somewhere around the house, including the Ford and the Lagonda. > Besides vehicles, Dinky also made other models like Hawker Hurricanes and > Spitfires as well as tanks and howitzers, etc. They made small trains too, but > here in the States we had cast metal TootsieToy trains which were much less > expensive as play toys for children to destroy< g>. > > Too bad about your Sakai streamliner. That's a real setback when you pay > good money for a collectable, only to see it crumble. Bonding these > jig-saw puzzles back together may not restore their collectable value, but at > least you have something to display. > > You have my permission to repost only my messages (I can't speak for > others who've also posted on this subject) -- but even then -- you need to ask > this list's owner (Don) for permission to repost anything from this group > somewhere else. I know that Yahoo does not allow forwarding and Yahoogroup > messages from one group to anther, and by that I don't mean that you need to > seek permission from them to forward messages; it simply won't go through > if you try. > > Ray Wetzel > > > > In a message dated 2/27/2014 12:42:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > digbee@... writes: > > > > > On 27/02/14 3:25, eriepacific@... wrote: >> >> >> This past post is from Merle, explaining a few more details of Red Ball >> production and the metal alloy being used. >> >> Ray Wetzel > > Hello Ray. > > This is a problem well-known in many model and collecting groups. The > metal is known as 'Mazac' in the UK. It was a severe problem with some > British manufactured items, notably the famous Dinky Toys produced by > Meccano Ltd. There are reports of rare prewar models being dropped and > crumbling into powder. > > There are also problems with some of the Japanese Sakai o-gauge tinplate > trains. As an example - I received a dismantled O-gauge streamliner, > picked up the body to check it internally for cracks or flaws, which > then broke into halves, lengthways, in my hands! It will be a major > repair job! > > May I have your permission to post some of these earlier messages to one > or two collectors groups to which I belong? I moderate the yahoo Sakai > and Seki group, which has also been discussing this topic recently. > > Names will be cut back to first names only, so no problems there.. > > Many Thanks.. Hello Ray/Don Ray - Many Thanks for your prompt reply.. Firstly re the Japanese Sakai body - I have about 5 or 6 of these locos in various conditions, and different variations of the livery, and in some cases, non-livery, so things are not too bad! Interestingly some were decaled: Sakai s' Standade Model [sic] along the footboard - 3 spelling mistakes in 3 words! And in only one case does the shade of blue paint on the tender even come close matching the loco! On another model, the lettering was 'Hutton and Pacific' instead of 'Hudson and Pacific' which adds to the collectablity for us Japanese tinplate freaks.. (I moderate the Sakai_Seki yahoo group).. However, getting very OT here. Re the Zamac saga - Don, if you are reading this, would you please contact me to OK or otherwise? Off-group is fine. Or if someone has an address for Don, would you please contact him (or me) to let him know? My plan is to copy the postings into a word processing program, edit as necessary, and post from there, so there will be no problems with forwarding, or identifying the authors (although I would prefer to include their first names, as thanks and for source attribution). Many Thanks.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22002	From: Denis Long	Date: 2/28/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Attachments : Mike, Soldering to a thin plating sounded iffy to me, and I’m not a savvy model mechanic.  Soldering to an imbedded screw sounds very positive, but does require that continued  effort for each piece. Denis     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Friday, February 28, 2014 10:36 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RE: Zamac & Sal-Met flux     Consider that you will be soldering to the plating and not the underlying mass of the castings.   It is much like painting the cast body with a high tech epoxy paint and then attaching additional parts to that thin layer of epoxy.   There is a point where the plating or epoxy paint will separate from the underlying casting and peel off from mechanical forces, taking your added parts with it.   It will hold up until that point.   In accordance with the physical laws of forces and materials, it would be much stronger to embed studs of a solder able metal into the castings and solder to those, or to file some crude thread or valleys into the studs of the casting and parts to be added and then epoxy mount that into the base cast model.   A cut off brass screw epoxied into the cast body and then the added part soldered or epoxied to that would be a very strong attachment that would last much longer than soldering to a thin plating.     Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone   On Feb 28, 2014, at 9:46 AM, eriepacific@... wrote: I would guess that in plating a cast zamac locomotive, that its surface needs to be prepared just as pristine as when you paint it so that there are no oils, etc., on the surface preventing the copper it solution from being in contact with the zamac.  If this precaution is not taken, you can expect any degree of spottiness wherever the electrolyte solution was prevented from contacting the zamac.  As for flaking, the copper's either going to firmly adhere to the zamac, as being bonded (plated) or it's not going to adhere at all, depending on whether any oils were still present on the shell.  Plating won't prevent zinc pest but may help hold the casting together if it's not too bad.  A bad zinc pest problem can really distort a casting badly though, and plating can't prevent that.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 2/28/2014 10:16:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bitlerisvj@... writes:   Yeah, I don't know enough about metallurgy to understand if that can really work very well.  Considering the various possible problems with zama, IE. zinc pest, corrosion, etc.  I would guess it may work sometimes and not very well other times.  I am not sure I would want to count on it and spend a lot of time detailing a locomotive with a plated surface unless I heard a lot of positive reviews.  According to the Micro Mark blurb, they plated the zamac using copper.   If you do a Google search on copper plating, you will find numerous Youtube hits showing all kinds of DIY copper plating methods with very low/no investment at all using copper wire, pennies, etc. and household chemicals, plus a power pack or battery.  That may be a worthwhile experiment? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: greenbrier614@... Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 06:30:31 -0800 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] RE: Zamac & Sal-Met flux   Matt & Vic, Obviously we need us a guinea pig to try this. <g> I've been curious about how well the plating process works since it came out a few years ago. It definitely involves a significant investment, so if the plating ended up spotty or flaky I wouldn't be a happy customer. It would be nice if they posted some testimonials under the listing. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22003	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Nelson, I agree with your concerns. Because I have never had problems with soldering white metal or Zamac (and Carr's make a zamac-rich solder specifically for soldering to zamac castings) I probably will never make the investment. I have never had much success with multi-step processes involving chemicals and electricity and admit to struggling with the 'static grass' stuff from Kibri so I am probably not the best guinea pig for this but I do find it intriguing in that it puts a diecast loco on the same footing as brass for soldering detail parts and with diecast locos making a comeback due to Chinese technology, it is something we should consider. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <greenbrier614@...> wrote: Matt & Vic, Obviously we need us a guinea pig to try this. <g> I've been curious about how well the plating process works since it came out a few years ago. It definitely involves a significant investment, so if the plating ended up spotty or flaky I wouldn't be a happy customer. It would be nice if they posted some testimonials under the listing. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22004	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: Re: Metal Alloy Discussion - Message for Owner Don..

On 28/02/14 22:56, eriepacific@... wrote: > Doug, > > We can be fairly sure that this list's owner (Don Dellman) probably reads > every Vintage HO group message being posted, even though most of us are off > moderating status. Just in case he misses a few, like maybe this current > thread, you should be able to reach him at< vintageHO-owner at > yahoogroups.com>. > > Ray Wetzel Thanks, Ray - I'll try him there.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22005	From: scrimjimmy	Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: 19th Annual Model Train Show & Swap Meet March 9th Cedarburg, WI

METRO Model Railroad Club’s 19TH annual railroad show and swap meet on Sunday, March 9th at Circle B Recreation on Highway 60 in Cedarburg will run from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m.    Show Chairman Jim Bartelt said the club is constantly striving to make the show fresh and to show the public the interesting things that are happening in the world of model trains.    METRO will be bringing back its own HO layout that has twice been judged best in the nation at the National Train Show.  One of the most highly detailed layouts ever built and now freshened up after many years of display, it has many animations and numerous (and humorous) details designed to delight children of all ages.    The Lakeshore O-Scale Railroaders will again be bringing a Lionel layout to the show and permitting anyone to run the trains.  Kids can also fire missiles from train cars, unload barrels and milk cans, and enjoy seeing in small scale some of their favorite movie and TV characters.   The Kettle Moraine Ballast Scorchers club of West Bend, WI will bring their popular N scale layout. It features various scenes of small town America with large numbers of vehicles and various eye catching scenes such as a train derailment, a train watching park, and interesting industries served by railroads.   Other returnees include the Badgerland S Gaugers showing the classic American Flyer scale trains as well as new S-scale trains that are currently available.  The WIZ KidZ, who will be bringing Z scale trains.  These are models so small that a layout can be built in a cigar box. The West Bend, Jackson and Southern will showing examples of G scale equipment that is most frequently used to create outdoor garden railroads, and also some #1 scale trains, which are trains large enough to actually ride on.    In addition, more than 50 tables of dealers and swappers will be on hand to buy, sell and trade model railroad equipment, both new and used.  Some notable dealers are Don Manlick of DM Custom Decals who will be selling his GB&W, C&NW and other decals, Jerry Krug of the C&NWHS, Sandy's Trains, Setco Trains, as well as many other dealers will be on hand to buy, sell and trade model railroad equipment, both new and used. The many club members and dealers on hand will be able to help modelers young and old with layout design, problem solving, and scenic hints.   Attendees can sign up for door prizes which include railroading books and one year subscriptions to Kalmbach Publishing’s magazine Model Railroader as well as Model Train Cars from ExactRail.      This is the 19th consecutive year for the show, which has become the largest in southeast Wisconsin after Milwaukee’s TrainFest.  Membership in all of the clubs showing is open; attendees can talk to club members at the show for membership details.  METRO can also be found on the web at www.metrorrclub.org.   Admission is by a $3 donation for adults; as always, children under 12 are admitted free when accompanied by an adult.  Commercial sponsors of this year’s show include Kalmbach Publishing, ExactRail, Dr. Daniel Witkowski DDS Gentle Family Dentistry and Tires Unlimited Automotive Services.   For more info contact:   James Bartelt Show Chairman 262-284-5876 jimbartelt@... www.metrorrclub.org

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22006	From: greenbrier614	Date: 3/1/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Thanks for everyone's input. Interesting point about the strength of the molecular bond between the plating and the Zamac. I wonder if a pre-treatment with white vinegar might might roughen the casting enough for the plating to get a better grip, just as with paint. Overall it sounds like a gamble, particularly with much sturdier mechanical means of attachment available. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22007	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

If you want to give this a try without the commercial package, here's a way to give it a good field-lab test with store bought supplies. http://www.instructables.com/id/High-Quality-Copper-Plating/step1/Materials/ Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 1, 2014, at 4:59 AM, <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: Nelson, I agree with your concerns. Because I have never had problems with soldering white metal or Zamac (and Carr's make a zamac-rich solder specifically for soldering to zamac castings) I probably will never make the investment. I have never had much success with multi-step processes involving chemicals and electricity and admit to struggling with the 'static grass' stuff from Kibri so I am probably not the best guinea pig for this but I do find it intriguing in that it puts a diecast loco on the same footing as brass for soldering detail parts and with diecast locos making a comeback due to Chinese technology, it is something we should consider. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <greenbrier614@...> wrote: Matt & Vic, Obviously we need us a guinea pig to try this. <g> I've been curious about how well the plating process works since it came out a few years ago. It definitely involves a significant investment, so if the plating ended up spotty or flaky I wouldn't be a happy customer. It would be nice if they posted some testimonials under the listing. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22008	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

I have had good success with soldering to embedded brass studs.  I drill and partially tap a hole(2-56 or 4-40), run in a screw hard, cut off with a jewelers saw, file flush, and drill in to the brass to the diameter of the mounting stud of the casting to be soldered on.  This sounds laborious, but with a drill press and good tooling it goes fast.  Do all of your castings at once.  Flux each joint and place a small cut piece of solder at the location, and then torch it typically with a plumbing type air-acetylene torch with small tip.   The solder will bead, and then just flow.  I have used 63/37(or145 deg C or Tix).  I have never melted a zamak casting.  The melting point difference is typically too great.  Eutectic solder = 362F, zamak = about 700F.  If you want to be really, really sure, you can put a little wicking type locking compound at each brass thread location after final clean up of the casting.  I hope this is of some help.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22009	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: What is it

Attachments : Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the maker?   Thanks in advance for your answers.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22010	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

Looks like Autheiicast. SEE>> http://www.hoseeker.net/authenticast/Authenticastcatalog1953pg03.jpg Garry Spear On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 8:53 PM, nvrr49@... <nvrr49@...> wrote:   Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the maker?   Thanks in advance for your answers.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22011	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

Received an error message after I downloaded it . . . "The file is damaged . . . " Unable to extract it.  If it's a 40' DP flat car it could be a Devore.  Depending on what material it's made of, it could also be a Red Ball (36' or 50').   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/2/2014 8:55:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nvrr49@... writes:   Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the maker?   Thanks in advance for your answers.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22012	From: rick flaherty	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

Attachments : Bugs P-38[22].png Is this better?  Worked for me: http://www.hoseeker.net/authenticast/Authenticastcatalog1953pg03.jpg Rick From: <eriepacific@...> Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, March 2, 2014 7:04 PM To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it   Received an error message after I downloaded it . . . "The file is damaged . . . " Unable to extract it.  If it's a 40' DP flat car it could be a Devore.  Depending on what material it's made of, it could also be a Red Ball (36' or 50').   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/2/2014 8:55:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nvrr49@... writes:   Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the maker?   Thanks in advance for your answers.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22013	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it [1 Attachment]

Rick,   Got it, no problem at all -- thanks.  If this is one whole ad for a manufacturer . . .  including the slag car as made by the same manufacturer, it's Authenticast.  BUT, if this is what Kent sent out to be downloaded and described, what's the big mystery since it states "Authenticast" right in the address?   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 3/2/2014 10:25:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, flick23@... writes:   Is this better?  Worked for me: http://www.hoseeker.net/authenticast/Authenticastcatalog1953pg03.jpg Rick From: <eriepacific@...> Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, March 2, 2014 7:04 PM To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it   Received an error message after I downloaded it . . . "The file is damaged . . . " Unable to extract it.  If it's a 40' DP flat car it could be a Devore.  Depending on what material it's made of, it could also be a Red Ball (36' or 50').   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/2/2014 8:55:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nvrr49@... writes:   Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the maker?   Thanks in advance for your answers.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22014	From: trainliker	Date: 3/2/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

 The car in the photo looks very different from the Authenticast ad.  The unknown car has side sills that change level with noticable angles where the Authenticast uses curves.  The little cast in bumper shapes (such as to bracket a transformer) are much smaller on the unknown than on the Authenticast.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it   Rick,   Got it, no problem at all -- thanks.  If this is one whole ad for a manufacturer . . .  including the slag car as made by the same manufacturer, it's Authenticast.  BUT, if this is what Kent sent out to be downloaded and described, what's the big mystery since it states "Authenticast" right in the address?   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 3/2/2014 10:25:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, flick23@... writes:   Is this better?  Worked for me: http://www.hoseeker.net/authenticast/Authenticastcatalog1953pg03.jpg Rick From: <eriepacific@...> Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, March 2, 2014 7:04 PM To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it   Received an error message after I downloaded it . . . "The file is damaged . . . " Unable to extract it.  If it's a 40' DP flat car it could be a Devore.  Depending on what material it's made of, it could also be a Red Ball (36' or 50').   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/2/2014 8:55:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nvrr49@... writes:   Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the maker?   Thanks in advance for your answers.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22015	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

On 3/2/2014 11:46 PM, ckinzer@... wrote:  The car in the photo looks very different from the Authenticast ad.  The unknown car has side sills that change level with noticable angles where the Authenticast uses curves.  The little cast in bumper shapes (such as to bracket a transformer) are much smaller on the unknown than on the Authenticast.   Chuck Kinzer I would have guessed Red Ball.  Hopefully Merle will see this thread and confirm one way or the other. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22016	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

John, Thanks for the tips and the suggestion. I will give that a try. And in my 40+ years of modeling I have never used a torch on a die-cast loco because I assumed it would turn into a puddle of lead. I may give it a try after all. I do know that the kits I have from the UK are very soft and even a soldering iron is too hot for them unless it has been cooled a bit, but the zamac must be a much harder casting. I have a couple of MDC Santa Fe locos that I wanted to build at some point and this may be the way to do it. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <johnhutnick@...> wrote: I have had good success with soldering to embedded brass studs.  I drill and partially tap a hole(2-56 or 4-40), run in a screw hard, cut off with a jewelers saw, file flush, and drill in to the brass to the diameter of the mounting stud of the casting to be soldered on.  This sounds laborious, but with a drill press and good tooling it goes fast.  Do all of your castings at once.  Flux each joint and place a small cut piece of solder at the location, and then torch it typically with a plumbing type air-acetylene torch with small tip.   The solder will bead, and then just flow.  I have used 63/37(or145 deg C or Tix).  I have never melted a zamak casting.  The melting point difference is typically too great.  Eutectic solder = 362F, zamak = about 700F.  If you want to be really, really sure, you can put a little wicking type locking compound at each brass thread location after final clean up of the casting.  I hope this is of some help.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22017	From: nvrr49	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

I agree with Chuck, it is close to the Authenticast car, but the side sills are not the same at all.  The Red Ball car has separate bolsters, and different end sills.   Kent in KC nvrr49.blogspot.com ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ckinzer@...> wrote:  The car in the photo looks very different from the Authenticast ad.  The unknown car has side sills that change level with noticable angles where the Authenticast uses curves.  The little cast in bumper shapes (such as to bracket a transformer) are much smaller on the unknown than on the Authenticast.   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22018	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

Looks like a Devore to me.   Unfortunately the instruction sheet as reproduced on hoseeker.net only has drawings instead of actual photos but if you look closely at all the various mounting points for couplers, grabs, etc. it looks pretty darn good. And it has the correct side elevation.   http://hoseeker.net/devore/devoredepressedcenterflatcar.jpg   I am just about positive we (dad, brother and I) had one of those cars back in the late 40’s/early 50’s on our layout but of course it is long gone now.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nvrr49@... Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] What is it     Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the maker?     Thanks in advance for your answers.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22019	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

Thanks Chuck, I have to wonder then, why Rick sent me the link to the Authenticast ad in lieu of the link I wasn't able to access.  Without the advantage of being able to see this car, but by your brief, albeit somewhat accurate description, I'm tending fall back on the last I.D. in my original message, of it being a Red Ball car -- if by "bumpers" you mean "tie-downs," the small verticle plates (w/holes) used to run rope or cable to them to hold down the load.  Authenticast used only two of them on each side of the depressed center, while Red Ball used four on each side.  Too, Red Ball included a very distinct large transformer load (part #648) to be installed on their 50' depressed center flat (Catalog #K-44) using part #240 sides.  Different style transformers were sold independently by Cliff Line -- and others later on.  Cliff Line also produced 40' and 50' depressed center flat cars.   Red Ball's 36' depressed center flat (Catalog #K-81) using part #246 sides came with a cast simulated canvas-covered blower load (a crated machinery load was also available).  Red Ball's depressed center flats did also use curves similar to Devore and Authenticast though, so I'm not really sure what you mean by this -- unless we're talking about Red Ball's 44.5' K-29 Pennsylvania Semi-Well flat car, which came with a load (usually, a diesel generator) of the modeler's choice -- but did also include two different style transformers as an option.  Then too, Red Ball also made a 56' K-33 Lehigh Valley Well Type flat car.  Neither of these two cars used "curves" in dropping their center.  Both of these Well Hole flat cars could be taken for depressed center flat cars, which they technically were not.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               .  A-C Models also made 40' and 50' depressed center flat cars, but with a wooden deck.  The major difference between Authenticast's 50' depressed center flat car and Red Ball's same model is that Red Ball used 6-wheel Buckeye trucks, whereas Authenticast used four-wheel trucks.  BTW, a scale ruler can easily tell the difference between a 36" flat car (made by Red Ball) and a 40' flat car (made by Authenticast).  Now, while Devore, Authenticast, Red Ball and A-C models offered their Depressed center flat cars as undecorated, A.C. Gilbert produced a cast D.C. flat car painted with New Haven RR lettering.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/3/2014 12:47:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ckinzer@... writes:    The car in the photo looks very different from the Authenticast ad.  The unknown car has side sills that change level with noticable angles where the Authenticast uses curves.  The little cast in bumper shapes (such as to bracket a transformer) are much smaller on the unknown than on the Authenticast.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2014 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it   Rick,   Got it, no problem at all -- thanks.  If this is one whole ad for a manufacturer . . .  including the slag car as made by the same manufacturer, it's Authenticast.  BUT, if this is what Kent sent out to be downloaded and described, what's the big mystery since it states "Authenticast" right in the address?   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 3/2/2014 10:25:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, flick23@... writes:   Is this better?  Worked for me: http://www.hoseeker.net/authenticast/Authenticastcatalog1953pg03.jpg Rick From: <eriepacific@...> Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, March 2, 2014 7:04 PM To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it   Received an error message after I downloaded it . . . "The file is damaged . . . " Unable to extract it.  If it's a 40' DP flat car it could be a Devore.  Depending on what material it's made of, it could also be a Red Ball (36' or 50').   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/2/2014 8:55:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, nvrr49@... writes:   Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the maker?   Thanks in advance for your answers.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22020	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

The Devore car has sharp corners on the side sills, not curves. That is the main reason I feel it may be a Devore, at least of the three mentioned up to now. It is not any sort of well car and I really don’t see how one could be confused for the other unless the viewing angle was a straight on side view with one’s eyes (or lens) being no higher than the top chord of the depressed center portion of the side sill.   My first thought was Ulrich but I found I was way off on that when I checked hoseeker and found the Ulrich 200 ton car was a level deck, four truck car. I guess that I am just so used to the kind of highly detailed castings Ulrich did back in the day. Since the Ulrich car wasn’t depressed should we call it a “happy” center flat?   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 7:27 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it     Thanks Chuck, I have to wonder then, why Rick sent me the link to the Authenticast ad in lieu of the link I wasn't able to access.  Without the advantage of being able to see this car, but by your brief, albeit somewhat accurate description, I'm tending fall back on the last I.D. in my original message, of it being a Red Ball car -- if by "bumpers" you mean "tie-downs," the small verticle plates (w/holes) used to run rope or cable to them to hold down the load.  Authenticast used only two of them on each side of the depressed center, while Red Ball used four on each side.  Too, Red Ball included a very distinct large transformer load (part #648) to be installed on their 50' depressed center flat (Catalog #K-44) using part #240 sides.  Different style transformers were sold independently by Cliff Line -- and others later on.  Cliff Line also produced 40' and 50' depressed center flat cars.   Red Ball's 36' depressed center flat (Catalog #K-81) using part #246 sides came with a cast simulated canvas-covered blower load (a crated machinery load was also available).  Red Ball's depressed center flats did also use curves similar to Devore and Authenticast though, so I'm not really sure what you mean by this -- unless we're talking about Red Ball's 44.5' K-29 Pennsylvania Semi-Well flat car, which came with a load (usually, a diesel generator) of the modeler's choice -- but did also include two different style transformers as an option.  Then too, Red Ball also made a 56' K-33 Lehigh Valley Well Type flat car.  Neither of these two cars used "curves" in dropping their center.  Both of these Well Hole flat cars could be taken for depressed center flat cars, which they technically were not.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               .  A-C Models also made 40' and 50' depressed center flat cars, but with a wooden deck.  The major difference between Authenticast's 50' depressed center flat car and Red Ball's same model is that Red Ball used 6-wheel Buckeye trucks, whereas Authenticast used four-wheel trucks.  BTW, a scale ruler can easily tell the difference between a 36" flat car (made by Red Ball) and a 40' flat car (made by Authenticast).  Now, while Devore, Authenticast, Red Ball and A-C models offered their Depressed center flat cars as undecorated, A.C. Gilbert produced a cast D.C. flat car painted with New Haven RR lettering.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22021	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

John,   These "to-be-identified" cars are always fun to come up with an answer for.  I think I now see what you mean by "sharp corners" -- at least on the inner part of the curves, while the outer part of the curve looks still round to me.  I guess that's the thing that threw me as I still saw the angles as a whole as being curved.  Not having the advantage of being able to see this car up until downloading the second link, I had no way of knowing if it may have been a well car or not at the time I posted previously.  I guess that "angle" stuff added to the confusion at my end.     Ulrich never produced 200 Ton fat cars -- you're thinking about MDC/Roundhouse.  Both manufacturers produced some real nice stuff, but those 200 ton flats were great.  BTW, Red Ball also produced a 200 Ton Flat Car (Catalog #K-49), which was described as a New York Central car, although it came undecorated.  I have the car, but still as a kit, and I don't remember if it came with NYC decals or not.  It came with four Gould 4-wheel trucks and a load of two big generators.  Red Ball also produced a P&LE 100 Ton Flat, with a pair of 6-wheel buckeye trucks (and a load of 2 "Buffalo" tanks) and an Erie 75 Ton Flat Car with a pair of Bettendorf heavy duty trucks (and a load of 3 oil cooled transformers).   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/3/2014 9:20:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprinthag@... writes:   The Devore car has sharp corners on the side sills, not curves. That is the main reason I feel it may be a Devore, at least of the three mentioned up to now. It is not any sort of well car and I really don’t see how one could be confused for the other unless the viewing angle was a straight on side view with one’s eyes (or lens) being no higher than the top chord of the depressed center portion of the side sill. My first thought was Ulrich but I found I was way off on that when I checked hoseeker and found the Ulrich 200 ton car was a level deck, four truck car. I guess that I am just so used to the kind of highly detailed castings Ulrich did back in the day. Since the Ulrich car wasn’t depressed should we call it a “happy” center flat? John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 7:27 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it   Thanks Chuck, I have to wonder then, why Rick sent me the link to the Authenticast ad in lieu of the link I wasn't able to access.  Without the advantage of being able to see this car, but by your brief, albeit somewhat accurate description, I'm tending fall back on the last I.D. in my original message, of it being a Red Ball car -- if by "bumpers" you mean "tie-downs," the small verticle plates (w/holes) used to run rope or cable to them to hold down the load.  Authenticast used only two of them on each side of the depressed center, while Red Ball used four on each side.  Too, Red Ball included a very distinct large transformer load (part #648) to be installed on their 50' depressed center flat (Catalog #K-44) using part #240 sides.  Different style transformers were sold independently by Cliff Line -- and others later on.  Cliff Line also produced 40' and 50' depressed center flat cars. Red Ball's 36' depressed center flat (Catalog #K-81) using part #246 sides came with a cast simulated canvas-covered blower load (a crated machinery load was also available).  Red Ball's depressed center flats did also use curves similar to Devore and Authenticast though, so I'm not really sure what you mean by this -- unless we're talking about Red Ball's 44.5' K-29 Pennsylvania Semi-Well flat car, which came with a load (usually, a diesel generator) of the modeler's choice -- but did also include two different style transformers as an option.  Then too, Red Ball also made a 56' K-33 Lehigh Valley Well Type flat car.  Neither of these two cars used "curves" in dropping their center.  Both of these Well Hole flat cars could be taken for depressed center flat cars, which they technically were not.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             .  A-C Models also made 40' and 50' depressed center flat cars, but with a wooden deck.  The major difference between Authenticast's 50' depressed center flat car and Red Ball's same model is that Red Ball used 6-wheel Buckeye trucks, whereas Authenticast used four-wheel trucks.  BTW, a scale ruler can easily tell the difference between a 36" flat car (made by Red Ball) and a 40' flat car (made by Authenticast).  Now, while Devore, Authenticast, Red Ball and A-C models offered their Depressed center flat cars as undecorated, A.C. Gilbert produced a cast D.C. flat car painted with New Haven RR lettering. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22022	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

John,    I'm missing a lengthy message (to Kent) explaining my finding and why -- after being able to view it with Kent's second link.  I sent it out before replying (as below) to your email, so I'm hoping Don posts it soon -- if he has control over it -- unless Yahoo lost it.  To clarify -- IT IS DEFINITELY DEVORE.  Maybe my message will show up, showing just why that conclusion was reached.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/3/2014 9:46:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, eriepacific@... writes:   John,   These "to-be-identified" cars are always fun to come up with an answer for.  I think I now see what you mean by "sharp corners" -- at least on the inner part of the curves, while the outer part of the curve looks still round to me.  I guess that's the thing that threw me as I still saw the angles as a whole as being curved.  Not having the advantage of being able to see this car up until downloading the second link, I had no way of knowing if it may have been a well car or not at the time I posted previously.  I guess that "angle" stuff added to the confusion at my end.     Ulrich never produced 200 Ton fat cars -- you're thinking about MDC/Roundhouse.  Both manufacturers produced some real nice stuff, but those 200 ton flats were great.  BTW, Red Ball also produced a 200 Ton Flat Car (Catalog #K-49), which was described as a New York Central car, although it came undecorated.  I have the car, but still as a kit, and I don't remember if it came with NYC decals or not.  It came with four Gould 4-wheel trucks and a load of two big generators.  Red Ball also produced a P&LE 100 Ton Flat, with a pair of 6-wheel buckeye trucks (and a load of 2 "Buffalo" tanks) and an Erie 75 Ton Flat Car with a pair of Bettendorf heavy duty trucks (and a load of 3 oil cooled transformers).   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/3/2014 9:20:30 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprinthag@... writes:   The Devore car has sharp corners on the side sills, not curves. That is the main reason I feel it may be a Devore, at least of the three mentioned up to now. It is not any sort of well car and I really don’t see how one could be confused for the other unless the viewing angle was a straight on side view with one’s eyes (or lens) being no higher than the top chord of the depressed center portion of the side sill. My first thought was Ulrich but I found I was way off on that when I checked hoseeker and found the Ulrich 200 ton car was a level deck, four truck car. I guess that I am just so used to the kind of highly detailed castings Ulrich did back in the day. Since the Ulrich car wasn’t depressed should we call it a “happy” center flat? John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 7:27 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it   Thanks Chuck, I have to wonder then, why Rick sent me the link to the Authenticast ad in lieu of the link I wasn't able to access.  Without the advantage of being able to see this car, but by your brief, albeit somewhat accurate description, I'm tending fall back on the last I.D. in my original message, of it being a Red Ball car -- if by "bumpers" you mean "tie-downs," the small verticle plates (w/holes) used to run rope or cable to them to hold down the load.  Authenticast used only two of them on each side of the depressed center, while Red Ball used four on each side.  Too, Red Ball included a very distinct large transformer load (part #648) to be installed on their 50' depressed center flat (Catalog #K-44) using part #240 sides.  Different style transformers were sold independently by Cliff Line -- and others later on.  Cliff Line also produced 40' and 50' depressed center flat cars. Red Ball's 36' depressed center flat (Catalog #K-81) using part #246 sides came with a cast simulated canvas-covered blower load (a crated machinery load was also available).  Red Ball's depressed center flats did also use curves similar to Devore and Authenticast though, so I'm not really sure what you mean by this -- unless we're talking about Red Ball's 44.5' K-29 Pennsylvania Semi-Well flat car, which came with a load (usually, a diesel generator) of the modeler's choice -- but did also include two different style transformers as an option.  Then too, Red Ball also made a 56' K-33 Lehigh Valley Well Type flat car.  Neither of these two cars used "curves" in dropping their center.  Both of these Well Hole flat cars could be taken for depressed center flat cars, which they technically were not.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             .  A-C Models also made 40' and 50' depressed center flat cars, but with a wooden deck.  The major difference between Authenticast's 50' depressed center flat car and Red Ball's same model is that Red Ball used 6-wheel Buckeye trucks, whereas Authenticast used four-wheel trucks.  BTW, a scale ruler can easily tell the difference between a 36" flat car (made by Red Ball) and a 40' flat car (made by Authenticast).  Now, while Devore, Authenticast, Red Ball and A-C models offered their Depressed center flat cars as undecorated, A.C. Gilbert produced a cast D.C. flat car painted with New Haven RR lettering. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22023	From: Mike	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

I was going to reply, but I think mine was called "Authenticast". <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html> Authenticast also sold a variety of very nicely made WWII military models that I have a handful of somewhere - I don't think they were any particular scale (and definitely smaller than HO). As nearly as I can tell, the flat car was the only piece of HO that Authenticast ever produced. I still have mine, along with a layout full of other HO models that just sit these days. Mike On 3/2/2014 9:44 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > Looks like Autheiicast. > SEE>> > http://www.hoseeker.net/authenticast/Authenticastcatalog1953pg03.jpg > > Garry Spear > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 8:53 PM, nvrr49@... > <mailto:nvrr49@...> <nvrr49@... <mailto:nvrr49@...>> > wrote: > > __ > > Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car. Any ideas on the > maker? > > Thanks in advance for your answers. > Kent Hurley > Kansas City, MO

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22024	From: Mike	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

I take my comment back - I am pretty sure that Authenticast produced some cars used for handling "slag", but I never saw one. Mike On 3/3/2014 10:08 AM, Mike wrote: > I was going to reply, but I think mine was called "Authenticast". > <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html> > > Authenticast also sold a variety of very nicely made WWII military > models that I have a handful of somewhere - I don't think they were any > particular scale (and definitely smaller than HO). As nearly as I can > tell, the flat car was the only piece of HO that Authenticast ever produced. > > I still have mine, along with a layout full of other HO models that just > sit these days. > > Mike >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22025	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

Mike,   While Authenticast's two Depressed Center Flat Car's (40' and 50') were fairly nice, probably their nicest model was that of the Magor operating Side Dump Car.  Another piece of rolling stock they offered was a Slag Car for use in steel mill operations, that went well along with General Models' Hot Metal Car.   This same manufacturer (Authenticast) also made a Double-Track Signal Bridge, free-standing Trackside Signals, a through-Girder Bridge and probably other items which I just can't think of off-hand.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/3/2014 10:08:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mikesloane@... writes: I was going to reply, but I think mine was called "Authenticast". <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html> Authenticast also sold a variety of very nicely made WWII military models that I have a handful of somewhere - I don't think they were any particular scale (and definitely smaller than HO). As nearly as I can tell, the flat car was the only piece of HO that Authenticast ever produced. I still have mine, along with a layout full of other HO models that just sit these days. Mike On 3/2/2014 9:44 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > Looks like Autheiicast. > SEE>> > http://www.hoseeker.net/authenticast/Authenticastcatalog1953pg03.jpg > > Garry Spear > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 8:53 PM, nvrr49@... > <mailto:nvrr49@...> <nvrr49@... <mailto:nvrr49@...>> > wrote: > >     __ > >     Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the >     maker? > >     Thanks in advance for your answers. >     Kent Hurley >     Kansas City, MO ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22026	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it [1 Attachment]

Kent, Was able to download your latest link, thanks.  As this appears to be  one piece casting (and looks more like zamak than type metal), the is NOT a Red Ball as Red Ball is assembled from different cast parts.  It is also not an Authenticast; as I already stated, Authenticast  has only two tie-downs on each end of the dropped center.  This is a Devore car.  Like I also said though, an H0 scale ruler could have ruled out a 36' car (almost 5", less about 1/64") from a 40' car (slightly over 5 1/2" by about 1/64").  Still puzzled by the remark of this car not having curves in its drop, as I see them plainly, unless I didn't read that statement correctly.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/3/2014 7:37:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nvrr49@... writes: Here is the car in question.  I does not look like an Authenticast to me.  Close, but the side sills do not look the same as the Authenticast add.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22027	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

I think they made a traveling overhead crane as well. Almost snagged a few over the years. One was still blister packed on the cardboard backing. Gary ---------- Sent from my not so smart Verizon Wireless mobile semi smart phone. -----Original Message----- From: eriepacific@... Sent: 3/3/2014 3:41:19 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it Mike,   While Authenticast's two Depressed Center Flat Car's (40' and 50') were fairly nice, probably their nicest model was that of the Magor operating Side Dump Car.  Another piece of rolling stock they offered was a Slag Car for use in steel mill operations, that went well along with General Models' Hot Metal Car.   This same manufacturer (Authenticast) also made a Double-Track Signal Bridge, free-standing Trackside Signals, a through-Girder Bridge and probably other items which I just can't think of off-hand.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/3/2014 10:08:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mikesloane@... writes: I was going to reply, but I think mine was called "Authenticast". <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html> Authenticast also sold a variety of very nicely made WWII military models that I have a handful of somewhere - I don't think they were any particular scale (and definitely smaller than HO). As nearly as I can tell, the flat car was the only piece of HO that Authenticast ever produced. I still have mine, along with a layout full of other HO models that just sit these days. Mike On 3/2/2014 9:44 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > Looks like Autheiicast. > SEE>> > http://www.hoseeker.net/authenticast/Authenticastcatalog1953pg03.jpg > > Garry Spear > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 8:53 PM, nvrr49@... > <mailto:nvrr49@...> <nvrr49@... <mailto:nvrr49@...>> > wrote: > >     __ > >     Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the >     maker? > >     Thanks in advance for your answers. >     Kent Hurley >     Kansas City, MO ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22028	From: trainliker	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

I was the one that mentioned curves versus angles of the side sills.  The Authenticast has very obvious broad curves in the side sill transitions from the upper to well deck.  The unknown, in comparison, is very angular in its transition.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: eriepacific@... To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 7:44 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: What is it     Kent, Was able to download your latest link, thanks.  As this appears to be  one piece casting (and looks more like zamak than type metal), the is NOT a Red Ball as Red Ball is assembled from different cast parts.  It is also not an Authenticast; as I already stated, Authenticast  has only two tie-downs on each end of the dropped center.  This is a Devore car.  Like I also said though, an H0 scale ruler could have ruled out a 36' car (almost 5", less about 1/64") from a 40' car (slightly over 5 1/2" by about 1/64").  Still puzzled by the remark of this car not having curves in its drop, as I see them plainly, unless I didn't read that statement correctly.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/3/2014 7:37:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, nvrr49@... writes: Here is the car in question.  I does not look like an Authenticast to me.  Close, but the side sills do not look the same as the Authenticast add.   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22029	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

Gary,   Yes, Authenticast certainly did make an overhead (Gantry) Crane.  That was another model I meant to include but it escaped my mind as I typed.  Thanks for bringing that to our attention.   Ray Wetzel    In a message dated 3/3/2014 10:45:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mittner@... writes:   I think they made a traveling overhead crane as well. Almost snagged a few over the years. One was still blister packed on the cardboard backing. Gary ---------- Sent from my not so smart Verizon Wireless mobile semi smart phone. -----Original Message----- From: eriepacific@... Sent: 3/3/2014 3:41:19 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What is it Mike,   While Authenticast's two Depressed Center Flat Car's (40' and 50') were fairly nice, probably their nicest model was that of the Magor operating Side Dump Car.  Another piece of rolling stock they offered was a Slag Car for use in steel mill operations, that went well along with General Models' Hot Metal Car.   This same manufacturer (Authenticast) also made a Double-Track Signal Bridge, free-standing Trackside Signals, a through-Girder Bridge and probably other items which I just can't think of off-hand.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/3/2014 10:08:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mikesloane@... writes: I was going to reply, but I think mine was called "Authenticast". <http://public.fotki.com/mikesloane/vintage-model-rr/varneyauthenticast.html> Authenticast also sold a variety of very nicely made WWII military models that I have a handful of somewhere - I don't think they were any particular scale (and definitely smaller than HO). As nearly as I can tell, the flat car was the only piece of HO that Authenticast ever produced. I still have mine, along with a layout full of other HO models that just sit these days. Mike On 3/2/2014 9:44 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > Looks like Autheiicast. > SEE>> > http://www.hoseeker.net/authenticast/Authenticastcatalog1953pg03.jpg > > Garry Spear > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2014 at 8:53 PM, nvrr49@... > <mailto:nvrr49@...> <nvrr49@... <mailto:nvrr49@...>> > wrote: > >     __ > >     Okay, I know it is a depressed center flat car.  Any ideas on the >     maker? > >     Thanks in advance for your answers. >     Kent Hurley >     Kansas City, MO ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22031	From: mrrwarehouse	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: What is it

The Red Ball cars being discussed continued in production (less trucks and loads) through the 1990s. There are additional Red Ball flat car molds that I suspect (by the way they were made) were pre war. In my research for a Red Ball history I could not find them advertised but I "inherited" some inventory and test produced more of them.  The one pertaining to this discussion was another 50 foot DC flat with riveted side frames . The 50 ft you are all familiar with is a PRR prototype. The same familiar 36 ft car was  produced about 15 years ago in plastic by Eastern Car Works- just before they faded into the sunset. regarding "UNDECORATED: there were painted Red Ball flat cars with lettering that appeared to be rubber stamped.( I know, I held , I saw).  Again, tracing magazine ads or house advertising publications did not settle this for me. Since the molds were of the J. Anderson vintage they had to be either late M. Dale Newton or made in the two years of Elkhart, IN production I believe. It was difficult tracing things as Dale Newton's fire and ours destroyed a lot of paperwork and samples. The prewar line and post fire line were vastly different. The riveted DC flat mold was pre war vintage. . In my conversations with Dale, he did not remember a lot and his memory sometimes conflicted with strong evidence& facts I had uncovered. The technology involved in making the tools was usually evident and was critical to piecing the history.  Much of the Red Ball/Binkley relationship was also elusive. Dale was no help on it but there WAS some kind of  a strong cross relationship [in addition to Binkley taking on the narrow gauge part of Red Ball to some extent]  about 1950-53 as Newton was attempting retirement.   Merle Rice

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22032	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/3/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Yes, most whitemetal UK kits are a lower temperature alloy, not zamak as are most from the US.   I rarely try to solder large items of UK whitemetal, as I have had bad experiences.  I have been successful attaching whitemetal castings to brass boilers or frames with Tix solder.  I put a little piece of Tix on the brass(with flux) right at the joint, and then heat the nearby brass with a carbon resistance probe.  As soon as something starts to happen with the Tix, quickly pull the probe.  With big heavy British whitemetal assemblies, I always use the Devcon 5 min. epoxy that comes in big bottles at Home Depot. I had at one time a container of SalMet that I bought from Kemtron.  Try as I might, I had no luck soldering zamak with this and a soldering iron.  Maybe I simply could not get a big Bowser or Hobbytown body hot enough.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22033	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22034	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Hi Gary,   Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22035	From: jbark76	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

I wasn't aware of any variations of the Columbia Southern tank.  I thought I had all 10 (in various states of completion), now I need to look for 2 more...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22036	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /URRO/Ruler.jpg Uploaded by : cnrmike1989 <cnrmike1989@...> Description : Underside of Floor with scale rule You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/URRO/Ruler.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398 Regards, cnrmike1989 <cnrmike1989@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22037	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /URRO/Underside.jpg Uploaded by : cnrmike1989 <cnrmike1989@...> Description : Underside of floor You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/URRO/Underside.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398 Regards, cnrmike1989 <cnrmike1989@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22038	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /URRO/Top.JPG Uploaded by : cnrmike1989 <cnrmike1989@...> Description : Top of Floor You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/URRO/Top.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398 Regards, cnrmike1989 <cnrmike1989@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22039	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /URRO/Top_End.JPG Uploaded by : cnrmike1989 <cnrmike1989@...> Description : Top End of Floor with 4050 embossed in plastic You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/URRO/Top_End.JPG To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398 Regards, cnrmike1989 <cnrmike1989@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22040	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Hi Gary, J (Bark) and list,   As I said -- "If I recall correctly . . . ".  Well, I didn't recall correctly.  It's the LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals which has a different version.  There's a scarce green variation.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 4:30:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jbark76@... writes:   I wasn't aware of any variations of the Columbia Southern tank.  I thought I had all 10 (in various states of completion), now I need to look for 2 more...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22041	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Ray,   I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Hi Gary,   Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg   GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear   Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site.   Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22042	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Chuck,   Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks,   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22043	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /V List Thomas cars.xls Uploaded by : chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...> Description : List of Thomas tank cars. You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/files/V%20List%20Thomas%20cars.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398 Regards, chuckie208755 <vze5crrw1@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22044	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Chuck,   Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks,   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22045	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Ray, My picture is the Green (PULLMAN) Mathieson Chemicals.  Is this the scarce color?  All Mathieson Chemicals cars I have seen are this color. Garrett (Garry) Spear On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:07 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Hi Gary, J (Bark) and list,   As I said -- "If I recall correctly . . . ".  Well, I didn't recall correctly.  It's the LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals which has a different version.  There's a scarce green variation.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 4:30:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jbark76@... writes:   I wasn't aware of any variations of the Columbia Southern tank.  I thought I had all 10 (in various states of completion), now I need to look for 2 more...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22046	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/4/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Chuck,   Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.    As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22047	From: bvasilion@ameritech.net	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items

Hello  I was wondering if your using vintage HO how detailed do you make your layouts?  Do you go as detailed as you can with buildings, etc or do you build what would look like layouts say from the 1940s or 1950s using what is available???

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22048	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Hi Guys, My Train of Thomas Tank cars also included three globe tank cars.  Two different numbers of he Hercules tank car.  I simply added the to the pictures and mailing process.  I have a spread sheet with 18 different catalog numbers for globe tank cars.  The WARREN cars is #8000C.  I own examples of 13 different catalog numbers, plus duplicates with different car numbers. I like metal tank cars and always looked for them. Garrett (Garry) Spear On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:14 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Chuck,   Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.    As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22049	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Well, first I need to apologize to Garry for not including a mention that the photo links were provided by him in the file I did load.  They are nice photos of the cars.  I will correct the file soon.   Ray, if you sign in to this group site, under the photo there is in small print “Files”.  Just click on that and they open as they did in the past.  I too still have XP and it works for me.   Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:15 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Chuck,   Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.    As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22050	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Ray, the Athearn metal car file on the group site is a work document file.  You and I did not do it.  Dlw455 made it and posted it on Sept. 7, 2009.  I also see that Garry Spear posted a link to a list of Globe models on March 31, 2007.  We did do a list of Athearn metal car kits with 276 listings and posted it on Sep 9, 2009.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:15 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Chuck,   Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.    As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22051	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Attachments : Yeah, I like the Thomas cars as well.  I have two, a single dome Philgas and a 6 dome Roma Wine car.  The Philgas I bought as a pristine kit and had no real trouble assembling it.  I did have to play with the hand rail stanchion/holders.  They are made from bendable tin and are inserted from inside the tank and then pushed out to protrude through the openings in the tank shell That was a job and you haven't lived until you built one of these.   The Roma Wine car was in a $2 dollar car box and it was in really bad shape.  But, upon close examination, most parts were present, including the domes.  The paint on the tank was not bad either.  A tiny bit worn, but much better shape than many on eBay (for $40 plus).  I did need to make up 2 of the frame side sections as they were missing.  Using one of the two existing ones, I made two of them from .062" brass.  I could have made them from styrene and it would have been a lot easier, but what the heck they are metal cars.  The two hardest parts of the restoration was the handrail stanchions.....again and installing Kadee couplers.  The car is now doing duty on the layout and looks perfect.  I am very proud of that $2 acquisition. Regards, Vic B.         Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: garrettspear@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:15:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Guys, My Train of Thomas Tank cars also included three globe tank cars.  Two different numbers of he Hercules tank car.  I simply added the to the pictures and mailing process.  I have a spread sheet with 18 different catalog numbers for globe tank cars.  The WARREN cars is #8000C.  I own examples of 13 different catalog numbers, plus duplicates with different car numbers. I like metal tank cars and always looked for them. Garrett (Garry) Spear On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:14 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Chuck,   Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.    As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22052	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Hi Garry,   Alright, now I understand why the Globe cars were tacked onto the bottom of your Thomas cars.  In going up on this site with my older user name -- ErieBerk -- (on my older computer with a different ISP), I didn't see a post from Larry first asking you about these cars there either -- but then I realized that the Larry in question is Larry Stevenson (my apologies if I didn't get the spelling right) of HOSeeker, after checking you message again.   Looks like you have a fairly good selection of Globe cars.  Yes, many of us appreciate the metal tank cars made by the early manufacturers back then.  If you ever run across really beat up ones with the paint and lettering badly damaged, they might be candidates for repainting and decaling for other oil companies of your choice if you can find them (the decals).  Not for collecting purposes, but just to operate them in your unit tank train.  The "duplicates" you have are not duplicates unless the reporting number is the same; I know what you mean though -- you have the same road name/oil company on these.  Looks like you can count on Globe having three different car side numbers on each of their tank cars.  Besides the ones you included here, the Warren car was also issued with #1145 and #1154 and the Hercules Powder (Black) had the additional #313 and #317.  Best of luck in completing the series, if that's your goal.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/5/2014 9:15:17 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi Guys, My Train of Thomas Tank cars also included three globe tank cars.  Two different numbers of he Hercules tank car.  I simply added them to the pictures and mailing process.  I have a spread sheet with 18 different catalog numbers for globe tank cars.  The WARREN cars is #8000C.  I own examples of 13 different catalog numbers, plus duplicates with different car numbers. I like metal tank cars and always looked for them. Garrett (Garry) Spear On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:14 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Chuck,   Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.    As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22053	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Hi Chuck,   Thanks for pointing me in the right direction to access the files, but I'm still locked out.  I signed into the group, as you said, and looked for "Files" in small print.  Yup, I found "Files," but it was barely noticeable in very light gray.  When I put my cursor over it, it changed from an arrow into a hand with a finger pointing at "Files" and a small circle to the right with a line through it.  No amount of clicking on it would open it, although it turned a light blue -- and I was signed in as it had my name on top, with the provision to sign out if I wanted to,  Might just be my old browser version preventing me from accessing it.  Can't update my IE as it's unable to complete that chore when I've tried.  I'd have to reload the machine to update it and I'm not about to do that unless I really have to.  Never had this problem with the old Yahoogroup page though, only with this new "Neo" thing.   Ray   In a message dated 3/5/2014 9:25:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Well, first I need to apologize to Garry for not including a mention that the photo links were provided by him in the file I did load.  They are nice photos of the cars.  I will correct the file soon. Ray, if you sign in to this group site, under the photo there is in small print “Files”.  Just click on that and they open as they did in the past.  I too still have XP and it works for me. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:15 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.  As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).  Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22054	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Chuck,   Since I can't get to the Athearn work document file, I can't know what it includes if it has anything other than the listing of the 276 cars that we posted.  As I mentioned yesterday, Athearn metal includes well over 700 different car -- with all the car side numbers.  I wouldn't mind completing them all, but I don't even remember what I sent you, not to mention what the work document file has -- and it serves no purpose to repeat any.  Most can be found in the Greenberg's Athearn Guide that I helped Dallas Mallerich with, although I've accumulated a good number of car numbers since then that none of us knew of at that time.  If you could give me something to go by that would show me what's already been filed, I could just take them by groups (Reefers, Flats, etc.) in increments, to send out periodically as an eventual completed listing.  Otherwise, I'll leave it go at that until a later time.   Best,   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/5/2014 9:37:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, the Athearn metal car file on the group site is a work document file.  You and I did not do it.  Dlw455 made it and posted it on Sept. 7, 2009.  I also see that Garry Spear posted a link to a list of Globe models on March 31, 2007.  We did do a list of Athearn metal car kits with 276 listings and posted it on Sep 9, 2009. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:15 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.  As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).  Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22055	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Attachments : Vic,   Your Thomas Rome tank looks spectacular for a $2 investment !  Nice job in restoring it; the paint and lettering still look great.  You're very lucky that since it was in the $2 box, that it still had all its six domes.  This is a major drawback with many used Roma (and Ambrose) tank cars, as quite often they're missing only one dome -- which are like a needle in a hay stack to find another one of.  Replacing the missing frame side sections with brass was the ONLY way to go.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/5/2014 10:30:51 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bitlerisvj@... writes:   Yeah, I like the Thomas cars as well.  I have two, a single dome Philgas and a 6 dome Roma Wine car.  The Philgas I bought as a pristine kit and had no real trouble assembling it.  I did have to play with the hand rail stanchion/holders.  They are made from bendable tin and are inserted from inside the tank and then pushed out to protrude through the openings in the tank shell That was a job and you haven't lived until you built one of these.   The Roma Wine car was in a $2 dollar car box and it was in really bad shape.  But, upon close examination, most parts were present, including the domes.  The paint on the tank was not bad either.  A tiny bit worn, but much better shape than many on eBay (for $40 plus).  I did need to make up 2 of the frame side sections as they were missing.  Using one of the two existing ones, I made two of them from .062" brass.  I could have made them from styrene and it would have been a lot easier, but what the heck they are metal cars.  The two hardest parts of the restoration was the handrail stanchions.....again and installing Kadee couplers.  The car is now doing duty on the layout and looks perfect.  I am very proud of that $2 acquisition. Regards, Vic B.         Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: garrettspear@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:15:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Guys, My Train of Thomas Tank cars also included three globe tank cars.  Two different numbers of he Hercules tank car.  I simply added the to the pictures and mailing process.  I have a spread sheet with 18 different catalog numbers for globe tank cars.  The WARREN cars is #8000C.  I own examples of 13 different catalog numbers, plus duplicates with different car numbers. I like metal tank cars and always looked for them. Garrett (Garry) Spear On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:14 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Chuck,   Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.    As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22056	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items

Additionally; is anybody seeking out and using Scintilla or Marnold power packs?   Louis N From: bvasilion@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 20:54:20 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] How detailed are your layouts using vintage items Hello  I was wondering if your using vintage HO how detailed do you make your layouts?  Do you go as detailed as you can with buildings, etc or do you build what would look like layouts say from the 1940s or 1950s using what is available???

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22057	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items

Yes,  I use two (2) Marnold throttles (rheostats) on my layout. Garry Spear On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 11:48 AM, louis niederlander <l_niederlander@...> wrote:    Additionally; is anybody seeking out and using Scintilla or Marnold power packs?   Louis N From: bvasilion@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2014 20:54:20 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] How detailed are your layouts using vintage items Hello  I was wondering if your using vintage HO how detailed do you make your layouts?  Do you go as detailed as you can with buildings, etc or do you build what would look like layouts say from the 1940s or 1950s using what is available???

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22058	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Ray, I have sent the list we did to you.  It has 276 lines of cars with many numbers for the cars on each line.  So there are over the 700 you expect to be there.  I think we have that covered.   Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 11:28 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Chuck,   Since I can't get to the Athearn work document file, I can't know what it includes if it has anything other than the listing of the 276 cars that we posted.  As I mentioned yesterday, Athearn metal includes well over 700 different car -- with all the car side numbers.  I wouldn't mind completing them all, but I don't even remember what I sent you, not to mention what the work document file has -- and it serves no purpose to repeat any.  Most can be found in the Greenberg's Athearn Guide that I helped Dallas Mallerich with, although I've accumulated a good number of car numbers since then that none of us knew of at that time.  If you could give me something to go by that would show me what's already been filed, I could just take them by groups (Reefers, Flats, etc.) in increments, to send out periodically as an eventual completed listing.  Otherwise, I'll leave it go at that until a later time.   Best,   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/5/2014 9:37:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, the Athearn metal car file on the group site is a work document file.  You and I did not do it.  Dlw455 made it and posted it on Sept. 7, 2009.  I also see that Garry Spear posted a link to a list of Globe models on March 31, 2007.  We did do a list of Athearn metal car kits with 276 listings and posted it on Sep 9, 2009. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:15 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.  As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).  Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22059	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Attachments : Oh yeah, Vic? Try putting together the valve gear hanger/levers/cross guides on a B./P.L. T-1 (or any other model). While I’m no model mechanic, I have built two B. Challengers & rehabbed another, and have put together a B. T-1. However, I’m just enough older now, and have developed two nerve problems in my hands, that makes this job a misery.  I will persist though, as I have another one after this. Denis         From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:31 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Yeah, I like the Thomas cars as well.  I have two, a single dome Philgas and a 6 dome Roma Wine car.  The Philgas I bought as a pristine kit and had no real trouble assembling it.  I did have to play with the hand rail stanchion/holders.  They are made from bendable tin and are inserted from inside the tank and then pushed out to protrude through the openings in the tank shell That was a job and you haven't lived until you built one of these.   The Roma Wine car was in a $2 dollar car box and it was in really bad shape.  But, upon close examination, most parts were present, including the domes.  The paint on the tank was not bad either.  A tiny bit worn, but much better shape than many on eBay (for $40 plus).  I did need to make up 2 of the frame side sections as they were missing.  Using one of the two existing ones, I made two of them from .062" brass.  I could have made them from styrene and it would have been a lot easier, but what the heck they are metal cars.  The two hardest parts of the restoration was the handrail stanchions.....again and installing Kadee couplers.  The car is now doing duty on the layout and looks perfect.  I am very proud of that $2 acquisition. Regards, Vic B.           Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: garrettspear@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:15:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Hi Guys, My Train of Thomas Tank cars also included three globe tank cars.  Two different numbers of he Hercules tank car.  I simply added the to the pictures and mailing process.  I have a spread sheet with 18 different catalog numbers for globe tank cars.  The WARREN cars is #8000C.  I own examples of 13 different catalog numbers, plus duplicates with different car numbers. I like metal tank cars and always looked for them. Garrett (Garry) Spear   On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:14 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:     Chuck,   Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.    As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:     OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22060	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Chuck,   That's great -- good news !  One less thing we need to cover.  When you said 276 listings, I subtracted that from 700+ listing and figured we might have nearly another 500 to go < g >.  Do you know if Garry did a complete Globe listing on the group site?  I just don't remember; if not, let me know.  If we need all the Thomas Industries numbers that could take a while as I don't think I made a note of them -- only because there's only one car number per road name, as I seem to recall.  Once you obtain one road name, there are no others of that one to look for.  I'd have to dig through loads of kits cartons in the attic to get to them, though -- which is where the extra time could come in.  I do seem to recall doing something on that manufacturer, which may be when I also included the variations.  Well at least Athearn was covered completely.  Might be a few new ones I've come across since September '09, but I'll check them out against the list when I can.   Regards,   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/5/2014 12:42:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I have sent the list we did to you.  It has 276 lines of cars with many numbers for the cars on each line.  So there are over the 700 you expect to be there.  I think we have that covered. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 11:28 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Since I can't get to the Athearn work document file, I can't know what it includes if it has anything other than the listing of the 276 cars that we posted.  As I mentioned yesterday, Athearn metal includes well over 700 different car -- with all the car side numbers.  I wouldn't mind completing them all, but I don't even remember what I sent you, not to mention what the work document file has -- and it serves no purpose to repeat any.  Most can be found in the Greenberg's Athearn Guide that I helped Dallas Mallerich with, although I've accumulated a good number of car numbers since then that none of us knew of at that time.  If you could give me something to go by that would show me what's already been filed, I could just take them by groups (Reefers, Flats, etc.) in increments, to send out periodically as an eventual completed listing.  Otherwise, I'll leave it go at that until a later time. Best, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/5/2014 9:37:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, the Athearn metal car file on the group site is a work document file.  You and I did not do it.  Dlw455 made it and posted it on Sept. 7, 2009.  I also see that Garry Spear posted a link to a list of Globe models on March 31, 2007.  We did do a list of Athearn metal car kits with 276 listings and posted it on Sep 9, 2009. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 11:15 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.  As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).  Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22061	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Garry,   I just went back to your MAWX 994 Mathieson car to double-check what you considered Pullman Green.  This is not the scarce variation; most (almost all) Mathieson Chemical cars are this very dark green.  The rare variety is a much lighter green.  Extremely noticeably different than the Pullman Green version.  For lack of a better description, the green on the back of a U.S, dollar bill comes to mind as being close to it.   Ray (Wetzel)       In a message dated 3/5/2014 12:55:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Ray, My picture is the Green (PULLMAN) Mathieson Chemicals.  Is this the scarce color?  All Mathieson Chemicals cars I have seen are this color. Garrett (Garry) Spear On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 9:07 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Hi Gary, J (Bark) and list,   As I said -- "If I recall correctly . . . ".  Well, I didn't recall correctly.  It's the LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals which has a different version.  There's a scarce green variation.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 4:30:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jbark76@... writes:   I wasn't aware of any variations of the Columbia Southern tank.  I thought I had all 10 (in various states of completion), now I need to look for 2 more...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22062	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items

Good question! I started out trying to used structures that were offered around the same era as the equipment I was using, but oddly enough many of the plastic buildings that were offered in the 50s are still available new. Only the old Tru-Scale are hard to find. I have several Dyna Kits that are awaiting building at this time. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <bvasilion@...> wrote : Hello  I was wondering if your using vintage HO how detailed do you make your layouts?  Do you go as detailed as you can with buildings, etc or do you build what would look like layouts say from the 1940s or 1950s using what is available???

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22063	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Globe Tank Cars

Guys, I can supply pictures of my Globe tank cars next week, if desired. I tried to access the list of Globe tank cars on the Vintage HO web page, but was unable to download it and open it.  Can other people access it. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22064	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Globe Tank Cars

On 3/5/2014 5:06 PM, Garry Spear wrote: Guys, I can supply pictures of my Globe tank cars next week, if desired. I tried to access the list of Globe tank cars on the Vintage HO web page, but was unable to download it and open it.  Can other people access it. Garry Spear  It's available, you have to fiddle with it since Yahoo went a screwed up all the groups. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22065	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Globe Tank Cars

Hello Garry,   I just looked and only see the word Globe in your file of “Globe Metal Kits”.  I was able to open that file.  I did have a Globe tank file added yesterday, but removed in this morning.  It only had the two cars you listed yesterday.  Since I did not get your permission to include your photo link.  I removed it.   Those two tank cars are also listed in the “V List of Athearn metal cars” that Ray and I worked on.  I would like to add links to your photos if that would be OK with you.  Your photos do show the completed cars very nicely.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Garry Spear Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:07 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Globe Tank Cars     Guys, I can supply pictures of my Globe tank cars next week, if desired. I tried to access the list of Globe tank cars on the Vintage HO web page, but was unable to download it and open it. Can other people access it. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22066	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Ray,   I do not know.  I am sure Garry can let you know.  Here is the link to Garry’s Globe listing. https://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v2/eMIXU33pWPs7qZ3dUt-c6A06aHugkhGmFvc3Ln9yKdDQEtvh76MSqdg-LRzSPX6Nu7kzWoZfCYVPCUafs48K8efAb_5NuCDXSeExIFKCEuw2Bvaaui9KwQk3NBFNz5Rg/Globe%20Metal%20Kits   I do believe his tank car listing is complete, based on the catalog page at HO Seeker.   Chuck Higdon  From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:36 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Chuck,   That's great -- good news !  One less thing we need to cover.  When you said 276 listings, I subtracted that from 700+ listing and figured we might have nearly another 500 to go < g >.  Do you know if Garry did a complete Globe listing on the group site?  I just don't remember; if not, let me know.  If we need all the Thomas Industries numbers that could take a while as I don't think I made a note of them -- only because there's only one car number per road name, as I seem to recall.  Once you obtain one road name, there are no others of that one to look for.  I'd have to dig through loads of kits cartons in the attic to get to them, though -- which is where the extra time could come in.  I do seem to recall doing something on that manufacturer, which may be when I also included the variations.  Well at least Athearn was covered completely.  Might be a few new ones I've come across since September '09, but I'll check them out against the list when I can.   Regards,   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22067	From: corlissbs	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Tank Cars

Does anyone have pics, etc. of Strombecker tank cars?  The paper wrappers were quite nice and prototipically correct, as far as I know.  I have a Heinz vinegar car kit, but would like pics of their other tank cars, especially the red Hercules Powder car.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22068	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Globe Tank Cars

Chuck,  Sure just give me credit.  This is a free posting site and if not accessed in 90 days the pictures can be deleted. Garry Spear On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 7:23 PM, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:   Hello Garry,   I just looked and only see the word Globe in your file of “Globe Metal Kits”.  I was able to open that file.  I did have a Globe tank file added yesterday, but removed in this morning.  It only had the two cars you listed yesterday.  Since I did not get your permission to include your photo link.  I removed it.   Those two tank cars are also listed in the “V List of Athearn metal cars” that Ray and I worked on.  I would like to add links to your photos if that would be OK with you.  Your photos do show the completed cars very nicely.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garry Spear Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 6:07 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Globe Tank Cars     Guys, I can supply pictures of my Globe tank cars next week, if desired. I tried to access the list of Globe tank cars on the Vintage HO web page, but was unable to download it and open it. Can other people access it. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22069	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Chuck,  When I click the link I get "Document not Found".  The listing has all the cars, but I have never found and example of Cat. #8000E or #8000I, which is listed as a UTLX car.  My Globe list has 37 different numbers for the cars. Garrett Spear On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Chuck Higdon <vze5crrw1@...> wrote:   Ray,   I do not know.  I am sure Garry can let you know.  Here is the link to Garry’s Globe listing. https://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v2/eMIXU33pWPs7qZ3dUt-c6A06aHugkhGmFvc3Ln9yKdDQEtvh76MSqdg-LRzSPX6Nu7kzWoZfCYVPCUafs48K8efAb_5NuCDXSeExIFKCEuw2Bvaaui9KwQk3NBFNz5Rg/Globe%20Metal%20Kits   I do believe his tank car listing is complete, based on the catalog page at HO Seeker.   Chuck Higdon  From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:36 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Chuck,   That's great -- good news !  One less thing we need to cover.  When you said 276 listings, I subtracted that from 700+ listing and figured we might have nearly another 500 to go < g >.  Do you know if Garry did a complete Globe listing on the group site?  I just don't remember; if not, let me know.  If we need all the Thomas Industries numbers that could take a while as I don't think I made a note of them -- only because there's only one car number per road name, as I seem to recall.  Once you obtain one road name, there are no others of that one to look for.  I'd have to dig through loads of kits cartons in the attic to get to them, though -- which is where the extra time could come in.  I do seem to recall doing something on that manufacturer, which may be when I also included the variations.  Well at least Athearn was covered completely.  Might be a few new ones I've come across since September '09, but I'll check them out against the list when I can.   Regards,   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22070	From: Askerberg	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items

I go for today's scenic realism. I reason why not show our vintage stuff in its best light. I did an article for RMC (March, 2013) on vintage 50s modeling and photographed the models in scenes modeled with contemporary scenic materials. In photographs, I think the vintage models pretty much hold their own against contemporary models. I have since built a portable display layout that I take to meets to show off the 50s stuff. Great fun, even more fun than it was way back then! Al Askerberg

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22071	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

I just tried and get the same response, the link does not work.  It must not have copied or pasted correctly.  The file is on the site and I was able to open it there.   Thanks for the comments about the file.   Take care,   Chuck Higdon    From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Garry Spear Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:17 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Chuck,  When I click the link I get "Document not Found".  The listing has all the cars, but I have never found and example of Cat. #8000E or #8000I, which is listed as a UTLX car.  My Globe list has 37 different numbers for the cars. Garrett Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22072	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/5/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Chuck,   As soon as I clicked on your link, I got a message telling me that this page cannot be found.  Not saying there's anything wrong with your link, but my computer just doesn't want to go there.  If Larry (HOSeeker) has a complete listing, he had to be supplied with it.  Maybe he obtained it from our file, in which case we're going around in circles.  But as long as Garry's listing is complete, that's all we need.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/5/2014 8:00:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I do not know.  I am sure Garry can let you know.  Here is the link to Garry’s Globe listing. https://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v2/eMIXU33pWPs7qZ3dUt-c6A06aHugkhGmFvc3Ln9yKdDQEtvh76MSqdg-LRzSPX6Nu7kzWoZfCYVPCUafs48K8efAb_5NuCDXSeExIFKCEuw2Bvaaui9KwQk3NBFNz5Rg/Globe%20Metal%20Kits I do believe his tank car listing is complete, based on the catalog page at HO Seeker. Chuck Higdon  From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 4:36 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, That's great -- good news !  One less thing we need to cover.  When you said 276 listings, I subtracted that from 700+ listing and figured we might have nearly another 500 to go < g >.  Do you know if Garry did a complete Globe listing on the group site?  I just don't remember; if not, let me know.  If we need all the Thomas Industries numbers that could take a while as I don't think I made a note of them -- only because there's only one car number per road name, as I seem to recall.  Once you obtain one road name, there are no others of that one to look for.  I'd have to dig through loads of kits cartons in the attic to get to them, though -- which is where the extra time could come in.  I do seem to recall doing something on that manufacturer, which may be when I also included the variations.  Well at least Athearn was covered completely.  Might be a few new ones I've come across since September '09, but I'll check them out against the list when I can. Regards, Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22073	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: How detailed are your layouts using vintage items

Al, I enjoyed your article and while I didn't want to say it in my response, I liked your approach and am upgrading some areas with modern material and details based on your thoughts in the article. What I have found is exactly what you say -- my 1950s locos, once painted and decaled, look nearly the same as modern stuff (especially steam) and putting them in a realistic setting makes them even more enjoyable. That being said, there are some structure kits from the 50s that with care in assembly will match almost anything on the market today. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <aiberg@...> wrote : I go for today's scenic realism. I reason why not show our vintage stuff in its best light. I did an article for RMC (March, 2013) on vintage 50s modeling and photographed the models in scenes modeled with contemporary scenic materials. In photographs, I think the vintage models pretty much hold their own against contemporary models. I have since built a portable display layout that I take to meets to show off the 50s stuff. Great fun, even more fun than it was way back then! Al Askerberg

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22074	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

Hi Brad, Is this the Heinz Vinegar car with a long single tank that is primarily yellow with the large blue 57 on each side?  I was not aware that a "wrapper" type tank car was made for this.  It would be nice if you could scan the wrapper.  Then it could be used to scratchbuild other similar cars. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: corlissbs@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Does anyone have pics, etc. of Strombecker tank cars?  The paper wrappers were quite nice and prototipically correct, as far as I know.  I have a Heinz vinegar car kit, but would like pics of their other tank cars, especially the red Hercules Powder car.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22075	From: corlissbs	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

Hi Vic:   Yes, the typical Heinz vinegar car.  I have the instruction sheet too.  Would like the info to be on HO Seeker site.  Unfortunately, I started building the car many years ago, so the wrapper is glued to the tank.  It might be falling off by now, I will see and let you know.  I am selling my HO stuff and have to dig it out anyway.   Brad   In a message dated 3/6/2014 7:32:17 A.M. Central Standard Time, bitlerisvj@... writes:   Hi Brad, Is this the Heinz Vinegar car with a long single tank that is primarily yellow with the large blue 57 on each side?  I was not aware that a "wrapper" type tank car was made for this.  It would be nice if you could scan the wrapper.  Then it could be used to scratchbuild other similar cars. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: corlissbs@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Does anyone have pics, etc. of Strombecker tank cars?  The paper wrappers were quite nice and prototipically correct, as far as I know.  I have a Heinz vinegar car kit, but would like pics of their other tank cars, especially the red Hercules Powder car.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22076	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

Do you still have the Strombecker glue?  Certainly something that is "seared, seared" into the memory.  It came in a packet that you mixed with water, and I suspect that it was made with animal hooves.  I remember trying to build a Strombecker streamliner when I was 7 or 8.  Never could get the glue to stick, probably because of a lax approach to precise measuring.  John B. Allyn From: corlissbs@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 9:58:52 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Hi Vic:   Yes, the typical Heinz vinegar car.  I have the instruction sheet too.  Would like the info to be on HO Seeker site.  Unfortunately, I started building the car many years ago, so the wrapper is glued to the tank.  It might be falling off by now, I will see and let you know.  I am selling my HO stuff and have to dig it out anyway.   Brad   In a message dated 3/6/2014 7:32:17 A.M. Central Standard Time, bitlerisvj@... writes:   Hi Brad, Is this the Heinz Vinegar car with a long single tank that is primarily yellow with the large blue 57 on each side?  I was not aware that a "wrapper" type tank car was made for this.  It would be nice if you could scan the wrapper.  Then it could be used to scratchbuild other similar cars. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: corlissbs@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Does anyone have pics, etc. of Strombecker tank cars?  The paper wrappers were quite nice and prototipically correct, as far as I know.  I have a Heinz vinegar car kit, but would like pics of their other tank cars, especially the red Hercules Powder car.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22077	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

No glue. Sorry.  Sent from Brad's iPod On Mar 6, 2014, at 9:57 AM, john.allyn@... wrote:   Do you still have the Strombecker glue?  Certainly something that is "seared, seared" into the memory.  It came in a packet that you mixed with water, and I suspect that it was made with animal hooves.  I remember trying to build a Strombecker streamliner when I was 7 or 8.  Never could get the glue to stick, probably because of a lax approach to precise measuring.  John B. Allyn From: corlissbs@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 9:58:52 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Hi Vic:   Yes, the typical Heinz vinegar car.  I have the instruction sheet too.  Would like the info to be on HO Seeker site.  Unfortunately, I started building the car many years ago, so the wrapper is glued to the tank.  It might be falling off by now, I will see and let you know.  I am selling my HO stuff and have to dig it out anyway.   Brad   In a message dated 3/6/2014 7:32:17 A.M. Central Standard Time, bitlerisvj@... writes:   Hi Brad, Is this the Heinz Vinegar car with a long single tank that is primarily yellow with the large blue 57 on each side?  I was not aware that a "wrapper" type tank car was made for this.  It would be nice if you could scan the wrapper.  Then it could be used to scratchbuild other similar cars. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: corlissbs@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Does anyone have pics, etc. of Strombecker tank cars?  The paper wrappers were quite nice and prototipically correct, as far as I know.  I have a Heinz vinegar car kit, but would like pics of their other tank cars, especially the red Hercules Powder car.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22078	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

Thanks for the pointer Brad.  I was not aware that anyone made "craft" kits for this car.  I am familiar with the plastic versions of these cars.  I even have a construction article on building one in O scale, which is easily don in HO as well.  The only difficult part is getting the decals/lettering. Regards, Vic B. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: corlissbs@... Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 10:58:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Hi Vic:   Yes, the typical Heinz vinegar car.  I have the instruction sheet too.  Would like the info to be on HO Seeker site.  Unfortunately, I started building the car many years ago, so the wrapper is glued to the tank.  It might be falling off by now, I will see and let you know.  I am selling my HO stuff and have to dig it out anyway.   Brad   In a message dated 3/6/2014 7:32:17 A.M. Central Standard Time, bitlerisvj@... writes:   Hi Brad, Is this the Heinz Vinegar car with a long single tank that is primarily yellow with the large blue 57 on each side?  I was not aware that a "wrapper" type tank car was made for this.  It would be nice if you could scan the wrapper.  Then it could be used to scratchbuild other similar cars. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: corlissbs@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Does anyone have pics, etc. of Strombecker tank cars?  The paper wrappers were quite nice and prototipically correct, as far as I know.  I have a Heinz vinegar car kit, but would like pics of their other tank cars, especially the red Hercules Powder car.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22079	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

Attachments : It would be called ‘Mucilage’.  There was a time lapse to wait until it became tacky enough to stick. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john.allyn@... Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 10:57 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Cc: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tank Cars     Do you still have the Strombecker glue?  Certainly something that is "seared, seared" into the memory.  It came in a packet that you mixed with water, and I suspect that it was made with animal hooves.  I remember trying to build a Strombecker streamliner when I was 7 or 8.  Never could get the glue to stick, probably because of a lax approach to precise measuring.  John B. Allyn   From: corlissbs@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 9:58:52 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Hi Vic:   Yes, the typical Heinz vinegar car.  I have the instruction sheet too.  Would like the info to be on HO Seeker site.  Unfortunately, I started building the car many years ago, so the wrapper is glued to the tank.  It might be falling off by now, I will see and let you know.  I am selling my HO stuff and have to dig it out anyway.   Brad   In a message dated 3/6/2014 7:32:17 A.M. Central Standard Time, bitlerisvj@... writes:   Hi Brad, Is this the Heinz Vinegar car with a long single tank that is primarily yellow with the large blue 57 on each side?  I was not aware that a "wrapper" type tank car was made for this.  It would be nice if you could scan the wrapper.  Then it could be used to scratchbuild other similar cars. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: corlissbs@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 20:47:25 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Tank Cars     Does anyone have pics, etc. of Strombecker tank cars?  The paper wrappers were quite nice and prototipically correct, as far as I know.  I have a Heinz vinegar car kit, but would like pics of their other tank cars, especially the red Hercules Powder car.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22080	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

Once upon a time about 45 years ago I worked at Hobby House.  I came to work one night after school and was told to get ready for some heavy lifting because we has just bought Red's Hobbycraft on St Clair in CLeveland.  One of the many treasures i found were boxes of Strombecker tank and box cars.  We ultimately sold them off for 40c each.  I kept a tank car and B&O boxcar.  Well what did I know, it was 1969!  And yes the glue was in a packet with blue horses printed on it marked Casien.   Regards, Louis N     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com CC: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:57:16 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tank Cars Do you still have the Strombecker glue?  Certainly something that is "seared, seared" into the memory.  It came in a packet that you mixed with water, and I suspect that it was made with animal hooves.  I remember trying to build a Strombecker streamliner when I was 7 or 8.  Never could get the glue to stick, probably because of a lax approach to precise measuring.  John B. Allyn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22081	From: trainliker	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars - glue

Attachments : Casco glue instructions.jpg Casco glue front.jpg Casco glue back.jpg Actually, it's spelled "casein".  I remembered it was made of milk.  I looked it up, and it's from protein, actually.  So the aforementioned hooves are not the source, but a cow was involved.  (Old joke:  What's the difference between being "involved" and "committed".  It's ham and eggs.  The chicken was involved, the pig was committed.)   I remember trying to use the packets and could never get it to work.  Probably my fault as the patience of a young boy trying to assemble a neat kit was probably too short.   I scanned front and back of an unopened package from a Strombecker kit.  The flap is glued over part of the instructions.  So I scanned just the instructions from another opened and partially used packet where you can read them all.   Note that this is from the Borden Company.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: louis niederlander To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 5:50 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Tank Cars   Once upon a time about 45 years ago I worked at Hobby House.  I came to work one night after school and was told to get ready for some heavy lifting because we has just bought Red's Hobbycraft on St Clair in CLeveland.  One of the many treasures i found were boxes of Strombecker tank and box cars.  We ultimately sold them off for 40c each.  I kept a tank car and B&O boxcar.  Well what did I know, it was 1969!  And yes the glue was in a packet with blue horses printed on it marked Casien.   Regards, Louis N     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com CC: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:57:16 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tank Cars Do you still have the Strombecker glue?  Certainly something that is "seared, seared" into the memory.  It came in a packet that you mixed with water, and I suspect that it was made with animal hooves.  I remember trying to build a Strombecker streamliner when I was 7 or 8.  Never could get the glue to stick, probably because of a lax approach to precise measuring.  John B. Allyn

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22082	From: Graeme	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

In message <72f2e.1d0a61d1.4047e748@...>, eriepacific@... writes > >Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas >Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made. Guys, forgive a question from a Brit with not too much knowledge of US H0 history. The Thomas Industries discussion is interesting. Question. Is this the same Thomas Industries of Shawnee OK, better known to me for a range of 0 gauge products, such as a cast 4-4-0 loco with tinplate coaches, various brass (?) freight cars, passenger cars lettered Pioneer etc? -- Graeme,Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22083	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Yes, the tank cars are from Thomas Industries, Shawnee Oklahoma. http://hoseeker.net/thomas/thomasdiagram6dtankcar.jpg I thought their O gauge locomotives and other products were primarily formed from sheet brass? Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: yahoo@... Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 19:33:05 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   In message <72f2e.1d0a61d1.4047e748@...>, eriepacific@... writes > >Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas >Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made. Guys, forgive a question from a Brit with not too much knowledge of US H0 history. The Thomas Industries discussion is interesting. Question. Is this the same Thomas Industries of Shawnee OK, better known to me for a range of 0 gauge products, such as a cast 4-4-0 loco with tinplate coaches, various brass (?) freight cars, passenger cars lettered Pioneer etc? -- Graeme,Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22084	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars - glue [3 Attachments]

Attachments : My error, mucilage is a glue made from plants and lower animal organisms.  And if casein is made from milk, than apparently no glue is made from horse’s hooves. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ckinzer@... Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 10:20 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tank Cars - glue [3 Attachments]     [Attachment(s) from ckinzer@... included below] Actually, it's spelled "casein".  I remembered it was made of milk.  I looked it up, and it's from protein, actually.  So the aforementioned hooves are not the source, but a cow was involved.  (Old joke:  What's the difference between being "involved" and "committed".  It's ham and eggs.  The chicken was involved, the pig was committed.)   I remember trying to use the packets and could never get it to work.  Probably my fault as the patience of a young boy trying to assemble a neat kit was probably too short.   I scanned front and back of an unopened package from a Strombecker kit.  The flap is glued over part of the instructions.  So I scanned just the instructions from another opened and partially used packet where you can read them all.   Note that this is from the Borden Company.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: louis niederlander To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2014 5:50 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Tank Cars     Once upon a time about 45 years ago I worked at Hobby House.  I came to work one night after school and was told to get ready for some heavy lifting because we has just bought Red's Hobbycraft on St Clair in CLeveland.  One of the many treasures i found were boxes of Strombecker tank and box cars.  We ultimately sold them off for 40c each.  I kept a tank car and B&O boxcar.  Well what did I know, it was 1969!  And yes the glue was in a packet with blue horses printed on it marked Casien.   Regards, Louis N     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com CC: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:57:16 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Tank Cars Do you still have the Strombecker glue?  Certainly something that is "seared, seared" into the memory.  It came in a packet that you mixed with water, and I suspect that it was made with animal hooves.  I remember trying to build a Strombecker streamliner when I was 7 or 8.  Never could get the glue to stick, probably because of a lax approach to precise measuring.  John B. Allyn

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22085	From: Graeme	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

In message <COL128-W32F5115B1986D843AA165BCD8B0@...>, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> writes > >Yes, the tank cars are from Thomas Industries, Shawnee >Oklahoma.http://hoseeker.net/thomas/thomasdiagram6dtankcar.jpgI thought >their O gauge locomotives and other products were primarily formed from >sheet brass? To be honest, I don't know, never having seen a Thomas loco or car. Most of my information comes from eBay listings, which are not known for their accuracy :-) However, the following text is copied from the TCA Western site, and may be more reliable : Founded in the 1950's by Jim Thomas in Wenonah, NJ to create a line of 'O' gauge scale and tinplate trains. Thomas was one of the founding partners, along with John Tyler, of Mantua Metal Manufacturing, a maker of electric motors, toys and electric trains. Thomas Industries succeeded in producing an 1860's era General type steam locomotive and set before Lionel did. They had several 4-4-0 engines and the freight/passenger cars in tinplate to go with these locos. The locos were generic in appearance. Offered were models with the cabbage stack (wood burner) and the straight stack (they called it the Branchline) coal burner. Their passenger cars and freight cars predated Lionel's offerings representing this time period by several years. Some say Lionel got religion because of what Thomas made and sold. No whistle or smoke was offered but these trains sold well and were noticeably less expensive than Lionel's offerings. The passenger cars that came with the General set were referred to as Pioneer cars. The Thomas old-time coach was originally produced at the Wenonah, NJ. factory with the word 'Pioneer' on the side. By the middle of 1951 the year '1869' was added to either side of the word Pioneer. Coaches also exist without any letters or numerals on the sides. Later production runs had simulated wood battens. There are 26 known variations of the Pioneer coach, 13 variations of the combine car, and 12 variations of the baggage car. Freight cars made were a Pulpwood car, Steel Flat car, Gondola, old time 4-Wheel Caboose, Crane car, and single-dome, triple dome, and 6 dome Tank cars. In 1951 Thomas acquired Scale-Craft and Company's line of 'O' gauge cars and moved to a new facility in Shawnee, OK. The acquisition encompassed the Scale-Craft dies and equipment to manufacture nine freight car kits. This included a 40' 6 inch box car, a 40 ton stock car, a 50 ton twin hopper, a 70 ton gondola, a milk tank car, a Passenger Express Refrigerator car, and maintenance work car. These freight car kits were available from 1951 to 1960. The 1952 catalog of Thomas Industries Trains was 12 pages and contained black and white photos of the trains being offered. Thomas also made a Passenger Waiting Platform, Goose-neck Lampost, Boulevard Lampost, and Switch Throw accessories. Thomas continued to produce trains until 1959 when Jim Thomas died suddenly of a heart attack. Other firms, including Thomas Industries Model Trains of Plano, TX in 1962, continued production, until the dies were destroyed in a fire in 1964. -- Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22086	From: John Webster	Date: 3/7/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

I remember Red's. He had stuff in there from the thirties. I believe he and his wife were a wingwalking team before the war.   John Webster

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22087	From: river_dweller_ohio	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Need Help Identifying 50' Gondola

Attachments : ___unknownspgonbody (2).jpg ___unknownspgonbody (1).JPG Hello Group. I need help in identifying the manufacturer of a Southern Pacific 50' gondola I have. The body is a one piece molded plastic casting, very similar to Athearn's blue box gondola, but the underframe is die cast metal, similar to Model Die Casting. I have included a couple photos to hopefully get some answers. There are some very well educated people on topics like this in the group. I know a lot about older kits, but occasionally I stumble across something unknown to me. Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22088	From: reed.estabrook	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: Need Help Identifying 50' Gondola [2 Attachments]

Hi Tod This is one of several hybrids sold by Roundhouse using Athearn plastic bodies and their own cast metal frames. I have a MDC Chemical Tank Car with a cast metal frame somehere - I believe it is in a Roundhouse box. Roundhouse also used metal sprung trucks made by Athearn. Reed ---- Original Message ---- From: river_dweller_ohio <river_dweller_ohio@...> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 8:40 am Subject: [vintageHO] Need Help Identifying 50' Gondola [2 Attachments] [Attachment(s) from river_dweller_ohio@... included below] Hello Group. I need help in identifying the manufacturer of a Southern Pacific 50' gondola I have. The body is a one piece molded plastic casting, very similar to Athearn's blue box gondola, but the underframe is die cast metal, similar to Model Die Casting. I have included a couple photos to hopefully get some answers. There are some very well educated people on topics like this in the group. I know a lot about older kits, but occasionally I stumble across something unknown to me. Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22089	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: Need Help Identifying 50' Gondola [2 Attachments]

My vote is Model Die Casting because of the plastic plug in the truck mounts, the appliances attached to the frame and the coupler pocket design.  If it is not MDC, somebody copied their methods. Happy railroading... Don Staton in Va ===================================================== On 3/8/2014 8:40 AM, river_dweller_ohio@... wrote:   Hello Group. I need help in identifying the manufacturer of a Southern Pacific 50' gondola I have. The body is a one piece molded plastic casting, very similar to Athearn's blue box gondola, but the underframe is die cast metal, similar to Model Die Casting. I have included a couple photos to hopefully get some answers. There are some very well educated people on topics like this in the group. I know a lot about older kits, but occasionally I stumble across something unknown to me. Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22090	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

Attachments : You’re kidding---a WING Walker? Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Webster Sent: Friday, March 07, 2014 10:00 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tank Cars     I remember Red's. He had stuff in there from the thirties. I believe he and his wife were a wingwalking team before the war.   John Webster

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22091	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/8/2014
Subject: Re: Tank Cars

Very interesting.  I knew nothing of Red Hildegast and Red's Hobby craft until i showed up at work that night in 1969.  I was a southeast side kid...started work at Sparks at E131 and Miles in 1965 for 75c an hour.  Had a good view of the Erie RR!  And what a stock of tru-scale roadbed we had!   Louis N     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: midpoint37@... Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 23:00:17 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tank Cars I remember Red's. He had stuff in there from the thirties. I believe he and his wife were a wingwalking team before the war.   John Webster

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22092	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: A couple new finds

Our trolley club was one of the layouts at a local show today,  Got away from layout long enough to hit the swap tables, picked up a couple nice pieces, Athearn Metal and Silver Streak box cars, a Varney plastic double door box and bay window caboose (brings me up to 8, that's the "standard" caboose on my Milwaukee Northern), but what I was most happy about, one of the original stamped aluminum Varney panel side hoppers from the 40's. Now just to clean them up and get them running. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22093	From: saddlewood1	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings

Attachments : MVC-012F.JPG MVC-011F.JPG MVC-006F-22093.JPG I definitely forgot about posting this.  For those of you that still may have some interest in this. I'm attaching a couple of the pictures.  I'll place the rest  in the photo section. The one on the left is a Penn Line alloy, on the right--a Penn Line lead shell. Denis

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22094	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: A couple new finds

Attachments : Nice going Don.  They all look to be in fairly decent shape.  I don't see any physical damage on any of them -- nothing that a bit of touching up won't fix.  I like that Varney stamped aluminum hopper; don't see many around that aren't pushed in here or there.  Best of luck with them, you have to show them to us again when you get them "cleaned up."  Gonna paint the caboose in MILW colors or at least letter it for your private road?  Meant to ask, as I presume you have trolleys, what do you run -- Bowsers?   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/9/2014 7:26:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, don.dellmann@... writes: Our trolley club was one of the layouts at a local show today,  Got away from layout long enough to hit the swap tables, picked up a couple nice pieces, Athearn Metal and Silver Streak box cars, a Varney plastic double door box and bay window caboose (brings me up to 8, that's the "standard" caboose on my Milwaukee Northern), but what I was most happy about, one of the original stamped aluminum Varney panel side hoppers from the 40's. Now just to clean them up and get them running. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22095	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: A couple new finds

On 3/9/2014 8:15 PM, eriepacific@... wrote: Nice going Don.  They all look to be in fairly decent shape.  I don't see any physical damage on any of them -- nothing that a bit of touching up won't fix.  I like that Varney stamped aluminum hopper; don't see many around that aren't pushed in here or there.  Best of luck with them, you have to show them to us again when you get them "cleaned up."  Gonna paint the caboose in MILW colors or at least letter it for your private road?  Meant to ask, as I presume you have trolleys, what do you run -- Bowsers?   Ray Wetzel   A was surprised to find it.  The builder had glued in a coal load, which probably helped it keep it's shape. Trolleys are mix of Bachman Brills,  Walthers kits (North Shore and Milwaukee Electric)  1 Bowser (The Libertybell Jewett combine) and 1 brass elctroliner. My trolley collection is here   http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/sets/72157606322302951/ I know a few of you are on the Haggis list, and maybe the old timers remember the HO list on Usenet, they may recognize my tribute to "Big John" Dalton Don  Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22096	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Today's train show finds....

Fell for a, literally, "grab box," of stuff at train show today: 1. (3) Hobbyline plastic Berkshire kits, one partially built, other two clean un-built. 2. (3) more Hobbyline 0-4-0T kits, all clean, unbuilt. (I remember buying these at the store when I was in high school. Cheap then.) 3. Hobbytown of Boston New Haven RS-3, new un-built kit, (Had one of those too when I was a kid, 'kinda miss it so, here's a, "new one." 4. Hobbytown of Boston #370K all wheel drive power unit for, apparently, above. (Well, now, this could work out good) 5. Globe, "Gold Kit A98," gold colored plastic F unit kit, un-powered. Not sure what I'll do with this. Moldings look nice and crisp. 6. Kurtz Kraft K-200E NP refrigerator car in bag kit. 7. "Rosebud Kitmaster General No. 3, " 4-4-0 plastic unpowered kit. Never heard of it. Don't need it. Probably cute enough. 8. Varney Dockside RTR , motor needs help. Newer version, red box, plastic shell. Fine shape other than motor. 9. Hobbytown of Boston "EMC F-7 Diesel Multi-Drive Chassis, A," kit Nice, fresh looking original box and packing including a real 2-cent post card addressed to Hobbytown for guarantee registration. Box has 2 F unit A frames, an EMD SW frame, (huh?), and other parts but missing main motor drive truck. Don't know what I'll do with this as it's obviously incomplete. 10 Eight (8), misc. freight cars. All look like the, "buck-a-piece," type for those needing rolling stock. 11. Four (4), "Lionel," branded, in-boxes freight cars. I do see, "Rivarossi," marked on undercarriage, so I guess they made them for Lionel. Three in nice original boxes, fourth box has torn flap. Looks like they will need to find a new home. 12. Marx HO bay window caboose, in nice Marx original box. 13. Cast white metal shell for a SW-1, (or there-abouts), switcher. Looks like Cary, but not as heavy. No maker's stamp. Nice casting. AND, a complete Penn Line K-4 Pacific kit in original red/white box with all the doc's. Really neat little green trays for the parts, etc. I don't think any small packages were ever opened. This is what flipped me to buy the box And what I paid for the box is about what I think the K-4 is worth, .. or a tad more. I don't think I got hurt, but didn't make a complete killing either. I expect some of this will go with me to the Lewiston, Idaho, train show March 23rd, so I can recoup a bit of my expenses for today. Dennis in E WA state

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22097	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: Today's train show finds....

On 3/9/2014 10:28 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote: > Fell for a, literally, "grab box," of stuff at train show today: > 1. (3) Hobbyline plastic Berkshire kits, one partially built, other > two clean un-built. > 2. (3) more Hobbyline 0-4-0T kits, all clean, unbuilt. (I remember > buying these at the store when I was in high school. Cheap then.) > 3. Hobbytown of Boston New Haven RS-3, new un-built kit, (Had one of > those too when I was a kid, 'kinda miss it so, here's a, "new one." > 4. Hobbytown of Boston #370K all wheel drive power unit for, > apparently, above. (Well, now, this could work out good) > 5. Globe, "Gold Kit A98," gold colored plastic F unit kit, > un-powered. Not sure what I'll do with this. Moldings look nice and crisp. > 6. Kurtz Kraft K-200E NP refrigerator car in bag kit. > 7. "Rosebud Kitmaster General No. 3, " 4-4-0 plastic unpowered > kit. Never heard of it. Don't need it. Probably cute enough. > 8. Varney Dockside RTR , motor needs help. Newer version, red box, > plastic shell. Fine shape other than motor. > 9. Hobbytown of Boston "EMC F-7 Diesel Multi-Drive Chassis, A," > kit Nice, fresh looking original box and packing including a real > 2-cent post card addressed to Hobbytown for guarantee > registration. Box has 2 F unit A frames, an EMD SW frame, > (huh?), and other parts but missing main motor drive truck. Don't > know what I'll do with this as it's obviously incomplete. > 10 Eight (8), misc. freight cars. All look like the, > "buck-a-piece," type for those needing rolling stock. > 11. Four (4), "Lionel," branded, in-boxes freight cars. I do see, > "Rivarossi," marked on undercarriage, so I guess they made them for > Lionel. Three in nice original boxes, fourth box has torn > flap. Looks like they will need to find a new home. > 12. Marx HO bay window caboose, in nice Marx original box. > 13. Cast white metal shell for a SW-1, (or there-abouts), > switcher. Looks like Cary, but not as heavy. No maker's stamp. Nice casting. > > AND, a complete Penn Line K-4 Pacific kit in original red/white box > with all the doc's. Really neat little green trays for the parts, > etc. I don't think any small packages were ever opened. This is > what flipped me to buy the box And what I paid for the box is about > what I think the K-4 is worth, .. or a tad more. I don't think I > got hurt, but didn't make a complete killing either. I expect some > of this will go with me to the Lewiston, Idaho, train show March > 23rd, so I can recoup a bit of my expenses for today. > > Dennis in E WA state > > How come I never find deals like that? :-( Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22098	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/9/2014
Subject: Re: Today's train show finds....

Nice finds, but you better send in that 2 cent postcard for the F7 chassis kit to Hobbytown ASAP to make sure it's guaranteed < g >.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/9/2014 10:28:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dbtrail@... writes:   Fell for a, literally, "grab box," of stuff at train show today: 1. (3) Hobbyline plastic Berkshire kits, one partially built, other two clean un-built. 2. (3) more Hobbyline 0-4-0T kits, all clean, unbuilt. (I remember buying these at the store when I was in high school. Cheap then.) 3. Hobbytown of Boston New Haven RS-3, new un-built kit, (Had one of those too when I was a kid, 'kinda miss it so, here's a, "new one." 4. Hobbytown of Boston #370K all wheel drive power unit for, apparently, above. (Well, now, this could work out good) 5. Globe, "Gold Kit A98," gold colored plastic F unit kit, un-powered. Not sure what I'll do with this. Moldings look nice and crisp. 6. Kurtz Kraft K-200E NP refrigerator car in bag kit. 7. "Rosebud Kitmaster General No. 3, " 4-4-0 plastic unpowered kit. Never heard of it. Don't need it. Probably cute enough. 8. Varney Dockside RTR , motor needs help. Newer version, red box, plastic shell. Fine shape other than motor. 9. Hobbytown of Boston "EMC F-7 Diesel Multi-Drive Chassis, A," kit Nice, fresh looking original box and packing including a real 2-cent post card addressed to Hobbytown for guarantee registration. Box has 2 F unit A frames, an EMD SW frame, (huh?), and other parts but missing main motor drive truck. Don't know what I'll do with this as it's obviously incomplete. 10 Eight (8), misc. freight cars. All look like the, "buck-a-piece," type for those needing rolling stock. 11. Four (4), "Lionel," branded, in-boxes freight cars. I do see, "Rivarossi," marked on undercarriage, so I guess they made them for Lionel. Three in nice original boxes, fourth box has torn flap. Looks like they will need to find a new home. 12. Marx HO bay window caboose, in nice Marx original box. 13. Cast white metal shell for a SW-1, (or there-abouts), switcher. Looks like Cary, but not as heavy. No maker's stamp. Nice casting. AND, a complete Penn Line K-4 Pacific kit in original red/white box with all the doc's. Really neat little green trays for the parts, etc. I don't think any small packages were ever opened. This is what flipped me to buy the box And what I paid for the box is about what I think the K-4 is worth, .. or a tad more. I don't think I got hurt, but didn't make a complete killing either. I expect some of this will go with me to the Lewiston, Idaho, train show March 23rd, so I can recoup a bit of my expenses for today. Dennis in E WA state

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22099	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings

Regarding the T-1 shells, I wouldn’t be surprised if the lead one was an early Bowser production.   My dad ran Trackside Specialties, and bought out Penn Line with Bowser and Bernie Paul at the auction. We got most of the parts and the partially completed engines (mechanisms, racks of motors, castings). Had a bunch of T-1 drivers and mechanisms, but no shells, so bought a small lot from Bowser when they started to make them. I’m thinking that the T-1 was not in regular production towards the end of Penn Line production, they were focused on RTR sets and their failed attempt to get into the slot car business. I can remember that the quality of the new shells was different than the Penn Line ones, but it enabled us to put together a dozen kits and move the parts we had.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22100	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: A couple new finds

> > I know a few of you are on the Haggis list, and maybe the old timers > remember the HO list on Usenet, they may recognize my tribute to "Big > John" Dalton > > Don > > Don Dellmann Been a while since I have heard that name. I wonder if the plaque is still on the seat of the RDC car. Howard Garner --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22101	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings

Jim,   I'm not surprised in the least by what you suggest, as Bowser being the probable producer of the lead boilers/shells.  This revelation fits right in with my reply to John Hagen on February 22, when I stated "in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with during the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not being very hard and at the same time not being very light, as you're saying."  It was stated by John that while Cary used a softer lead antimony alloy, when Bowser purchased the line they used their (Bowser's) metal for casting the Cary line -- which was very hard and weighed less.    While I never doubted John's assertion of this at that time of Cary's takeover, I wanted to point out that Bowser's metal was not always very hard, nor did it always weigh less when cast during earlier production periods.  It drilled more like lead too, even if it might not have been pure lead, although I don't know if it was an alloy or not.  I still suspect it may have been an alloy of mostly lead though, as it didn't seem quite as soft as lead and still held its details nicely.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/10/2014 6:53:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Watermaj@... writes:   Regarding the T-1 shells, I wouldn’t be surprised if the lead one was an early Bowser production.   My dad ran Trackside Specialties, and bought out Penn Line with Bowser and Bernie Paul at the auction. We got most of the parts and the partially completed engines (mechanisms, racks of motors, castings). Had a bunch of T-1 drivers and mechanisms, but no shells, so bought a small lot from Bowser when they started to make them. I’m thinking that the T-1 was not in regular production towards the end of Penn Line production, they were focused on RTR sets and their failed attempt to get into the slot car business. I can remember that the quality of the new shells was different than the Penn Line ones, but it enabled us to put together a dozen kits and move the parts we had.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22102	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings

I never had any contact with the earlier Bowser products. For some reason, probably their product line back in the day. I had always had dreams of getting a Challenger but never the money. Now I wouldn’t mind to own one of the NYC Pacific’s bit not “then.” And when they took over Penn Line, well I also wasn’t a fan of Pennsy steam back then either.   I liked Mikado’s and switcher’s, 0-6-0’s in particular with a bit of a soft spot for 0-4-0’s, B&O’s C-16’s and C-16a’s especially (A grand total of four engines), neither of which would lead me to Bowser’s door step. After Don Stromberg (a friend) sold Cary to Bowser I did do some inspecting of their version of some of the diesel shells and was not thrilled to see, and feel the heft of, the metal they were using at the time. Of course by this time lead had been found to be the nasty thing it always was but we never knew it to be. So I do not want to admonish  Bowser in any way for using the metal they did; things change and many of them are not to the liking of old farts like me who make up something like a few percent at best of the market place.   That said I am absolutely thrilled with their C-430, especially the GBW versions, and I have one sitting right here where I can admire it at anytime I please, which is often. Frankly I have to say that Bowser is definitely about the best builder of trains there is today.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Castings     Jim,   I'm not surprised in the least by what you suggest, as Bowser being the probable producer of the lead boilers/shells.  This revelation fits right in with my reply to John Hagen on February 22, when I stated "in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with during the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not being very hard and at the same time not being very light, as you're saying."  It was stated by John that while Cary used a softer lead antimony alloy, when Bowser purchased the line they used their (Bowser's) metal for casting the Cary line -- which was very hard and weighed less.    While I never doubted John's assertion of this at that time of Cary's takeover, I wanted to point out that Bowser's metal was not always very hard, nor did it always weigh less when cast during earlier production periods.  It drilled more like lead too, even if it might not have been pure lead, although I don't know if it was an alloy or not.  I still suspect it may have been an alloy of mostly lead though, as it didn't seem quite as soft as lead and still held its details nicely.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22103	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Old Bowser Challenger.

Languishing in a box is a Bowser 4-8-8-4 I bought at a swap ages ago. I believe it is an early 1950's kit as I recall from the instructions. It has an odd motor that has the instructions to send it in for re-magnetizing  from time to time. The motor has no power to it. It will run but not power the model. I wonder if switching to the new rare earth magnets will save the rather odd pancake motor it has? It also has the now rare Kemtron Centipede brass tender. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: I never had any contact with the earlier Bowser products. For some reason, probably their product line back in the day. I had always had dreams of getting a Challenger but never the money. Now I wouldn’t mind to own one of the NYC Pacific’s bit not “then.” And when they took over Penn Line, well I also wasn’t a fan of Pennsy steam back then either.   I liked Mikado’s and switcher’s, 0-6-0’s in particular with a bit of a soft spot for 0-4-0’s, B&O’s C-16’s and C-16a’s especially (A grand total of four engines), neither of which would lead me to Bowser’s door step. After Don Stromberg (a friend) sold Cary to Bowser I did do some inspecting of their version of some of the diesel shells and was not thrilled to see, and feel the heft of, the metal they were using at the time. Of course by this time lead had been found to be the nasty thing it always was but we never knew it to be. So I do not want to admonish  Bowser in any way for using the metal they did; things change and many of them are not to the liking of old farts like me who make up something like a few percent at best of the market place.   That said I am absolutely thrilled with their C-430, especially the GBW versions, and I have one sitting right here where I can admire it at anytime I please, which is often. Frankly I have to say that Bowser is definitely about the best builder of trains there is today.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Castings     Jim,   I'm not surprised in the least by what you suggest, as Bowser being the probable producer of the lead boilers/shells.  This revelation fits right in with my reply to John Hagen on February 22, when I stated "in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with during the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not being very hard and at the same time not being very light, as you're saying."  It was stated by John that while Cary used a softer lead antimony alloy, when Bowser purchased the line they used their (Bowser's) metal for casting the Cary line -- which was very hard and weighed less.    While I never doubted John's assertion of this at that time of Cary's takeover, I wanted to point out that Bowser's metal was not always very hard, nor did it always weigh less when cast during earlier production periods.  It drilled more like lead too, even if it might not have been pure lead, although I don't know if it was an alloy or not.  I still suspect it may have been an alloy of mostly lead though, as it didn't seem quite as soft as lead and still held its details nicely.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22104	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Guys,   I'm sure Bowser's Challenger was dream material for many aspiring H0 modelers "back in the day;" I know it was for me.  I remember buying my first copies of MR from my local hobby shop back in 1951 or '52, when I was converting from American Flyer S Gauge, and would drool over Bowser's ads for their UP 4-6-6-4.  But, as a kid not being able to afford much more than the Varney Dockside (at $15.00), it had to remain a dream until after I got my first job years later.  Bowser's Brass Mountain -- the one they bought from Knapp -- was another one at that time, which I longed to own then.    Mike, I'm sure you must mean Bowser's 4-6-6-4 you bought at a swap, as being an early 1950's kit.  Bowser only started producing the 4-8-8-4 (Big Boy) approximately 30 years ago (late 70's - early 80's), if I recall right.  Some modelers spliced two Challenger boilers together and used two Mikado frames under it, but it was no easy kit bash to get those boilers properly aligned with each other.   Back those days, when Bill Bowser (Redlands, CA) first started making the Challenger, he included his "Super Motor" to power them.  This is probably the motor you're referring to; it had beveled edges at the top corners so it would fit inside the shell.  It was a powerful motor for its time.  I remember buying a motor remagnetizer back in the early 70's but I don't know whatever happened to it.  Wouldn't mind finding one now.  I don't know about rare earth magnets, but a swap with a good can motor should work wonders.  It's for the same reason you bring up, about the older motors losing their magnetism, that I have to wonder how good the motors are in any of the Penn Line kits I see up on eBay.  The kits look great -- untouched -- but are the motors still up to the job?   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/10/2014 12:44:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   Languishing in a box is a Bowser 4-8-8-4 I bought at a swap ages ago. I believe it is an early 1950's kit as I recall from the instructions. It has an odd motor that has the instructions to send it in for re-magnetizing  from time to time. The motor has no power to it. It will run but not power the model. I wonder if switching to the new rare earth magnets will save the rather odd pancake motor it has? It also has the now rare Kemtron Centipede brass tender. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: I never had any contact with the earlier Bowser products. For some reason, probably their product line back in the day. I had always had dreams of getting a Challenger but never the money. Now I wouldn’t mind to own one of the NYC Pacific’s bit not “then.” And when they took over Penn Line, well I also wasn’t a fan of Pennsy steam back then either. I liked Mikado’s and switcher’s, 0-6-0’s in particular with a bit of a soft spot for 0-4-0’s, B&O’s C-16’s and C-16a’s especially (A grand total of four engines), neither of which would lead me to Bowser’s door step. After Don Stromberg (a friend) sold Cary to Bowser I did do some inspecting of their version of some of the diesel shells and was not thrilled to see, and feel the heft of, the metal they were using at the time. Of course by this time lead had been found to be the nasty thing it always was but we never knew it to be. So I do not want to admonish  Bowser in any way for using the metal they did; things change and many of them are not to the liking of old farts like me who make up something like a few percent at best of the market place. That said I am absolutely thrilled with their C-430, especially the GBW versions, and I have one sitting right here where I can admire it at anytime I please, which is often. Frankly I have to say that Bowser is definitely about the best builder of trains there is today. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Castings   Jim, I'm not surprised in the least by what you suggest, as Bowser being the probable producer of the lead boilers/shells.  This revelation fits right in with my reply to John Hagen on February 22, when I stated "in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with during the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not being very hard and at the same time not being very light, as you're saying."  It was stated by John that while Cary used a softer lead antimony alloy, when Bowser purchased the line they used their (Bowser's) metal for casting the Cary line -- which was very hard and weighed less.  While I never doubted John's assertion of this at that time of Cary's takeover, I wanted to point out that Bowser's metal was not always very hard, nor did it always weigh less when cast during earlier production periods.  It drilled more like lead too, even if it might not have been pure lead, although I don't know if it was an alloy or not.  I still suspect it may have been an alloy of mostly lead though, as it didn't seem quite as soft as lead and still held its details nicely. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22105	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings

Attachments : Hey Jim, I don’t suppose you have any of those parts left---Huh, huh. I know you sold them out in 1976. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim Waterman Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:54 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Castings     Regarding the T-1 shells, I wouldn’t be surprised if the lead one was an early Bowser production.   My dad ran Trackside Specialties, and bought out Penn Line with Bowser and Bernie Paul at the auction. We got most of the parts and the partially completed engines (mechanisms, racks of motors, castings). Had a bunch of T-1 drivers and mechanisms, but no shells, so bought a small lot from Bowser when they started to make them. I’m thinking that the T-1 was not in regular production towards the end of Penn Line production, they were focused on RTR sets and their failed attempt to get into the slot car business. I can remember that the quality of the new shells was different than the Penn Line ones, but it enabled us to put together a dozen kits and move the parts we had.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22106	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Attachments : Mike, I don’t know why the new magnets wouldn’t transform that motor, but as has been written, you are confronted with a reason for not installing a can.  Unless you wish to keep it original.  What I have done is to replace the old motor, put it in the box, install the can.  That way, when your wife sells the engine for .59 the new owner will have the original.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 12:42 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.     Languishing in a box is a Bowser 4-8-8-4 I bought at a swap ages ago.   I believe it is an early 1950's kit as I recall from the instructions.   It has an odd motor that has the instructions to send it in for re-magnetizing  from time to time.   The motor has no power to it. It will run but not power the model. I wonder if switching to the new rare earth magnets will save the rather odd pancake motor it has?   It also has the now rare Kemtron Centipede brass tender.   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone   On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: I never had any contact with the earlier Bowser products. For some reason, probably their product line back in the day. I had always had dreams of getting a Challenger but never the money. Now I wouldn’t mind to own one of the NYC Pacific’s bit not “then.” And when they took over Penn Line, well I also wasn’t a fan of Pennsy steam back then either.   I liked Mikado’s and switcher’s, 0-6-0’s in particular with a bit of a soft spot for 0-4-0’s, B&O’s C-16’s and C-16a’s especially (A grand total of four engines), neither of which would lead me to Bowser’s door step. After Don Stromberg (a friend) sold Cary to Bowser I did do some inspecting of their version of some of the diesel shells and was not thrilled to see, and feel the heft of, the metal they were using at the time. Of course by this time lead had been found to be the nasty thing it always was but we never knew it to be. So I do not want to admonish  Bowser in any way for using the metal they did; things change and many of them are not to the liking of old farts like me who make up something like a few percent at best of the market place.   That said I am absolutely thrilled with their C-430, especially the GBW versions, and I have one sitting right here where I can admire it at anytime I please, which is often. Frankly I have to say that Bowser is definitely about the best builder of trains there is today.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Castings     Jim,   I'm not surprised in the least by what you suggest, as Bowser being the probable producer of the lead boilers/shells.  This revelation fits right in with my reply to John Hagen on February 22, when I stated "in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with during the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not being very hard and at the same time not being very light, as you're saying."  It was stated by John that while Cary used a softer lead antimony alloy, when Bowser purchased the line they used their (Bowser's) metal for casting the Cary line -- which was very hard and weighed less.    While I never doubted John's assertion of this at that time of Cary's takeover, I wanted to point out that Bowser's metal was not always very hard, nor did it always weigh less when cast during earlier production periods.  It drilled more like lead too, even if it might not have been pure lead, although I don't know if it was an alloy or not.  I still suspect it may have been an alloy of mostly lead though, as it didn't seem quite as soft as lead and still held its details nicely.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22107	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Penn Line Castings

Attachments : Hello, To clarify the ID on my photos/album—the shell with boiler railing is the PL (better) casting.  As you can see, both shells have cast backheads, the Bowser’s looks as though it melted and sagged.  The Penn Line has no flash, and I don’t see file marks, where flash has been removed.  The Bowser is very flashed and has a dull finish. Further, the PL shell weighs 26 ¾ oz---the Bowser is 24 oz. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Castings     Jim,   I'm not surprised in the least by what you suggest, as Bowser being the probable producer of the lead boilers/shells.  This revelation fits right in with my reply to John Hagen on February 22, when I stated "in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with during the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not being very hard and at the same time not being very light, as you're saying."  It was stated by John that while Cary used a softer lead antimony alloy, when Bowser purchased the line they used their (Bowser's) metal for casting the Cary line -- which was very hard and weighed less.    While I never doubted John's assertion of this at that time of Cary's takeover, I wanted to point out that Bowser's metal was not always very hard, nor did it always weigh less when cast during earlier production periods.  It drilled more like lead too, even if it might not have been pure lead, although I don't know if it was an alloy or not.  I still suspect it may have been an alloy of mostly lead though, as it didn't seem quite as soft as lead and still held its details nicely.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/10/2014 6:53:56 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Watermaj@... writes:   Regarding the T-1 shells, I wouldn’t be surprised if the lead one was an early Bowser production.   My dad ran Trackside Specialties, and bought out Penn Line with Bowser and Bernie Paul at the auction. We got most of the parts and the partially completed engines (mechanisms, racks of motors, castings). Had a bunch of T-1 drivers and mechanisms, but no shells, so bought a small lot from Bowser when they started to make them. I’m thinking that the T-1 was not in regular production towards the end of Penn Line production, they were focused on RTR sets and their failed attempt to get into the slot car business. I can remember that the quality of the new shells was different than the Penn Line ones, but it enabled us to put together a dozen kits and move the parts we had.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22108	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Hmmm,   The Challenger has been around like forever but I believe the Big Boy (4-8-8-4) came at a much later date, like the 70’s or even 80’s. Nice catch on the Kemtron tender.   Since it is such an old, decrepit piece I’d be happy to take it off your hands for $25.00 or so.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 12:42 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.     Languishing in a box is a Bowser 4-8-8-4 I bought at a swap ages ago.   I believe it is an early 1950's kit as I recall from the instructions.   It has an odd motor that has the instructions to send it in for re-magnetizing  from time to time.   The motor has no power to it. It will run but not power the model. I wonder if switching to the new rare earth magnets will save the rather odd pancake motor it has?   It also has the now rare Kemtron Centipede brass tender.   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone   On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: I never had any contact with the earlier Bowser products. For some reason, probably their product line back in the day. I had always had dreams of getting a Challenger but never the money. Now I wouldn’t mind to own one of the NYC Pacific’s bit not “then.” And when they took over Penn Line, well I also wasn’t a fan of Pennsy steam back then either.   I liked Mikado’s and switcher’s, 0-6-0’s in particular with a bit of a soft spot for 0-4-0’s, B&O’s C-16’s and C-16a’s especially (A grand total of four engines), neither of which would lead me to Bowser’s door step. After Don Stromberg (a friend) sold Cary to Bowser I did do some inspecting of their version of some of the diesel shells and was not thrilled to see, and feel the heft of, the metal they were using at the time. Of course by this time lead had been found to be the nasty thing it always was but we never knew it to be. So I do not want to admonish  Bowser in any way for using the metal they did; things change and many of them are not to the liking of old farts like me who make up something like a few percent at best of the market place.   That said I am absolutely thrilled with their C-430, especially the GBW versions, and I have one sitting right here where I can admire it at anytime I please, which is often. Frankly I have to say that Bowser is definitely about the best builder of trains there is today.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Castings     Jim,   I'm not surprised in the least by what you suggest, as Bowser being the probable producer of the lead boilers/shells.  This revelation fits right in with my reply to John Hagen on February 22, when I stated "in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with during the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not being very hard and at the same time not being very light, as you're saying."  It was stated by John that while Cary used a softer lead antimony alloy, when Bowser purchased the line they used their (Bowser's) metal for casting the Cary line -- which was very hard and weighed less.    While I never doubted John's assertion of this at that time of Cary's takeover, I wanted to point out that Bowser's metal was not always very hard, nor did it always weigh less when cast during earlier production periods.  It drilled more like lead too, even if it might not have been pure lead, although I don't know if it was an alloy or not.  I still suspect it may have been an alloy of mostly lead though, as it didn't seem quite as soft as lead and still held its details nicely.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22109	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Just last week I fired up a 1949 version Varney F-3, the high priced one with the DC70 motor and good gear boxes. Ran great with plenty of power. I also ran my recently acquired two motor Mantua Shark and it not only ran great bit it was whisper quiet and has plenty of grunt.   I do not know when the Shark was last operated but the F-3 has been sitting in a box in my brother’s basement for many, many years. I seems that as long as they motors were kept intact so as to not disturb the magnetic field those old Pitman type motors would keep their power level rather well during extended storage. I have several old Mantua steamers and most of them have good power.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 1:41 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.     Guys,   I'm sure Bowser's Challenger was dream material for many aspiring H0 modelers "back in the day;" I know it was for me.  I remember buying my first copies of MR from my local hobby shop back in 1951 or '52, when I was converting from American Flyer S Gauge, and would drool over Bowser's ads for their UP 4-6-6-4.  But, as a kid not being able to afford much more than the Varney Dockside (at $15.00), it had to remain a dream until after I got my first job years later.  Bowser's Brass Mountain -- the one they bought from Knapp -- was another one at that time, which I longed to own then.    Mike, I'm sure you must mean Bowser's 4-6-6-4 you bought at a swap, as being an early 1950's kit.  Bowser only started producing the 4-8-8-4 (Big Boy) approximately 30 years ago (late 70's - early 80's), if I recall right.  Some modelers spliced two Challenger boilers together and used two Mikado frames under it, but it was no easy kit bash to get those boilers properly aligned with each other.   Back those days, when Bill Bowser (Redlands, CA) first started making the Challenger, he included his "Super Motor" to power them.  This is probably the motor you're referring to; it had beveled edges at the top corners so it would fit inside the shell.  It was a powerful motor for its time.  I remember buying a motor remagnetizer back in the early 70's but I don't know whatever happened to it.  Wouldn't mind finding one now.  I don't know about rare earth magnets, but a swap with a good can motor should work wonders.  It's for the same reason you bring up, about the older motors losing their magnetism, that I have to wonder how good the motors are in any of the Penn Line kits I see up on eBay.  The kits look great -- untouched -- but are the motors still up to the job?   Ray Wetzel     Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (59) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 11 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22110	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Attachments : Hello, Writing of Bill Bowser, I spoke to him some years ago about a cast brass Mountain I had acquired.  This was the real Bowser Mountain, from Redlands, had the original box & printed notes, not Knapp & not a later ‘Bowser’.  Wanted to verify that is was his, he established that it was.  A very pleasant conversation, with the Man. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 1:41 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.     Guys,   I'm sure Bowser's Challenger was dream material for many aspiring H0 modelers "back in the day;" I know it was for me.  I remember buying my first copies of MR from my local hobby shop back in 1951 or '52, when I was converting from American Flyer S Gauge, and would drool over Bowser's ads for their UP 4-6-6-4.  But, as a kid not being able to afford much more than the Varney Dockside (at $15.00), it had to remain a dream until after I got my first job years later.  Bowser's Brass Mountain -- the one they bought from Knapp -- was another one at that time, which I longed to own then.    Mike, I'm sure you must mean Bowser's 4-6-6-4 you bought at a swap, as being an early 1950's kit.  Bowser only started producing the 4-8-8-4 (Big Boy) approximately 30 years ago (late 70's - early 80's), if I recall right.  Some modelers spliced two Challenger boilers together and used two Mikado frames under it, but it was no easy kit bash to get those boilers properly aligned with each other.   Back those days, when Bill Bowser (Redlands, CA) first started making the Challenger, he included his "Super Motor" to power them.  This is probably the motor you're referring to; it had beveled edges at the top corners so it would fit inside the shell.  It was a powerful motor for its time.  I remember buying a motor remagnetizer back in the early 70's but I don't know whatever happened to it.  Wouldn't mind finding one now.  I don't know about rare earth magnets, but a swap with a good can motor should work wonders.  It's for the same reason you bring up, about the older motors losing their magnetism, that I have to wonder how good the motors are in any of the Penn Line kits I see up on eBay.  The kits look great -- untouched -- but are the motors still up to the job?   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/10/2014 12:44:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   Languishing in a box is a Bowser 4-8-8-4 I bought at a swap ages ago.   I believe it is an early 1950's kit as I recall from the instructions.   It has an odd motor that has the instructions to send it in for re-magnetizing  from time to time.   The motor has no power to it. It will run but not power the model. I wonder if switching to the new rare earth magnets will save the rather odd pancake motor it has?   It also has the now rare Kemtron Centipede brass tender.   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone   On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: I never had any contact with the earlier Bowser products. For some reason, probably their product line back in the day. I had always had dreams of getting a Challenger but never the money. Now I wouldn’t mind to own one of the NYC Pacific’s bit not “then.” And when they took over Penn Line, well I also wasn’t a fan of Pennsy steam back then either. I liked Mikado’s and switcher’s, 0-6-0’s in particular with a bit of a soft spot for 0-4-0’s, B&O’s C-16’s and C-16a’s especially (A grand total of four engines), neither of which would lead me to Bowser’s door step. After Don Stromberg (a friend) sold Cary to Bowser I did do some inspecting of their version of some of the diesel shells and was not thrilled to see, and feel the heft of, the metal they were using at the time. Of course by this time lead had been found to be the nasty thing it always was but we never knew it to be. So I do not want to admonish  Bowser in any way for using the metal they did; things change and many of them are not to the liking of old farts like me who make up something like a few percent at best of the market place. That said I am absolutely thrilled with their C-430, especially the GBW versions, and I have one sitting right here where I can admire it at anytime I please, which is often. Frankly I have to say that Bowser is definitely about the best builder of trains there is today. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Castings   Jim, I'm not surprised in the least by what you suggest, as Bowser being the probable producer of the lead boilers/shells.  This revelation fits right in with my reply to John Hagen on February 22, when I stated "in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with during the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not being very hard and at the same time not being very light, as you're saying."  It was stated by John that while Cary used a softer lead antimony alloy, when Bowser purchased the line they used their (Bowser's) metal for casting the Cary line -- which was very hard and weighed less.  While I never doubted John's assertion of this at that time of Cary's takeover, I wanted to point out that Bowser's metal was not always very hard, nor did it always weigh less when cast during earlier production periods.  It drilled more like lead too, even if it might not have been pure lead, although I don't know if it was an alloy or not.  I still suspect it may have been an alloy of mostly lead though, as it didn't seem quite as soft as lead and still held its details nicely. Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22111	From: saddlewood1	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Remagnetizing Motors

All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22112	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Yes.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22113	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Seriously here is one way using neodymium magnets but there are other ways using an electrical current if I remember correctly.   http://www.ehow.com/how_6316790_remagnetize-magnets.html   I’ll do some more research and post anything I find.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22114	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Here is a video show how to remagnetize a Telecaster guitar pick-up. The interesting part starts at about the 4 minute mark.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22115	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Oops. CRS problem.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ITMmEyJ0F0   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 7:14 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Here is a video show how to remagnetize a Telecaster guitar pick-up. The interesting part starts at about the 4 minute mark.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22116	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Thanks John, that's good to know about old Pittman motors keeping their power level.  Good point about keeping them intact.  Not every modeler is aware of that important little instruction to follow.  I've read that a number of times over many years, even though it was never really stressed to the readers.  There's no choice if an armature is burned out though; it needs replacing.  One thing I can't help wondering about is when some modelers upgraded their Varney V-1 6-volt motors with a Pittman DC-71 armature to convert it to 12 volts, I'm extremely curious about how much power was retained (or lost) because of the change-out, despite these V-1's now being on 12 volts   Yeah, can't help but to love those Mantua metal Sharks.  While Mantua was more of an economy line of models, anything John Tyler made early on was engineered to be top running machines.  The single motor Sharks may not have been stellar performers, but put that second motor in and it ran like a champ.  As for Varney F-3's -- the original cast metal "Brutes"or even the triple pulley and spring belt versions -- there was no effort spared by Varney in making them just about 'bulletproof' when performance was taken into consideration.  By using belt on the smallest diameter section of the motor's pulley coupled to the largest diameter section of the truck's pulley, you could really get them down to a crawl -- especially if you used pulse-power.  His best version by far though, was the one with the 7-pole V-4.   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 3/10/2014 6:39:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprinthag@... writes:   Just last week I fired up a 1949 version Varney F-3, the high priced one with the DC70 motor and good gear boxes. Ran great with plenty of power. I also ran my recently acquired two motor Mantua Shark and it not only ran great bit it was whisper quiet and has plenty of grunt. I do not know when the Shark was last operated but the F-3 has been sitting in a box in my brother’s basement for many, many years. I seems that as long as they motors were kept intact so as to not disturb the magnetic field those old Pitman type motors would keep their power level rather well during extended storage. I have several old Mantua steamers and most of them have good power. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 1:41 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.   Guys, I'm sure Bowser's Challenger was dream material for many aspiring H0 modelers "back in the day;" I know it was for me.  I remember buying my first copies of MR from my local hobby shop back in 1951 or '52, when I was converting from American Flyer S Gauge, and would drool over Bowser's ads for their UP 4-6-6-4.  But, as a kid not being able to afford much more than the Varney Dockside (at $15.00), it had to remain a dream until after I got my first job years later.  Bowser's Brass Mountain -- the one they bought from Knapp -- was another one at that time, which I longed to own then.  Mike, I'm sure you must mean Bowser's 4-6-6-4 you bought at a swap, as being an early 1950's kit.  Bowser only started producing the 4-8-8-4 (Big Boy) approximately 30 years ago (late 70's - early 80's), if I recall right.  Some modelers spliced two Challenger boilers together and used two Mikado frames under it, but it was no easy kit bash to get those boilers properly aligned with each other. Back those days, when Bill Bowser (Redlands, CA) first started making the Challenger, he included his "Super Motor" to power them.  This is probably the motor you're referring to; it had beveled edges at the top corners so it would fit inside the shell.  It was a powerful motor for its time.  I remember buying a motor remagnetizer back in the early 70's but I don't know whatever happened to it.  Wouldn't mind finding one now.  I don't know about rare earth magnets, but a swap with a good can motor should work wonders.  It's for the same reason you bring up, about the older motors losing their magnetism, that I have to wonder how good the motors are in any of the Penn Line kits I see up on eBay.  The kits look great -- untouched -- but are the motors still up to the job? Ray Wetzel Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (59) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 11 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (64) .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22117	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

There is an article in September 1972 issue of Model Railroader titled “Motor magnets and how to charge them” by Ben King (ppg 59 – 61). It involves using filter chokes from old TV sets. I don’t know just how available these pieces are these days as most TV’s have been solid state for years albeit I have no idea if that means they do or do not have filter chokes. Methinks I’ll make a trip to the local American Scientific store and look around there.   Anyway it gives a good idea of what is involved in remagnetizing magnets. I found many references to having motor magnets remagnatized through the years in MR mags so it seems this was common practice years ago. There is a definite possibility that slot car hobby shop may be able to do it and, of course, electric motor repair shops may still be able to but where to find these places these days …….   Then it becomes a question if replacing the magnets with the rare earth magnets (As mentioned by Mike Bauers) may not be a better solution if maintaining the motors original configuration is not high on your wish list.   Or, as also mentioned just replace the motor but that can lead to problems in fitting of u-joints, flywheels, etc. to mate with the rest of the chassis. Some models will be easy other difficult. I find the idea of retaining the old, open frame motors, at least the Pittman and Pittman copies to be rather attractive to me. If I can cobble up one of Mr. King’s recharging tools I’d like to try it.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Yes.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22118	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

More years ago than I care to think about I blithely took apart the DC-71 in my first generation Mantua Mike without placing a “keeper” across the magnets. My thought was to try to shim out some of the play in the armature shaft only to discover when I re-installed the motor it barely had any power. Luckily I had acquired a parts engine somewhere along the line and I swapped that motor in and had the power retuned.   I did do some work on a couple open frame motors later on and with the use of a keeper I was able to avoid the snafu I made with the Mikes motor.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 7:24 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.     Thanks John, that's good to know about old Pittman motors keeping their power level.  Good point about keeping them intact.  Not every modeler is aware of that important little instruction to follow.  I've read that a number of times over many years, even though it was never really stressed to the readers.  There's no choice if an armature is burned out though; it needs replacing.  One thing I can't help wondering about is when some modelers upgraded their Varney V-1 6-volt motors with a Pittman DC-71 armature to convert it to 12 volts, I'm extremely curious about how much power was retained (or lost) because of the change-out, despite these V-1's now being on 12 volts   Yeah, can't help but to love those Mantua metal Sharks.  While Mantua was more of an economy line of models, anything John Tyler made early on was engineered to be top running machines.  The single motor Sharks may not have been stellar performers, but put that second motor in and it ran like a champ.  As for Varney F-3's -- the original cast metal "Brutes"or even the triple pulley and spring belt versions -- there was no effort spared by Varney in making them just about 'bulletproof' when performance was taken into consideration.  By using belt on the smallest diameter section of the motor's pulley coupled to the largest diameter section of the truck's pulley, you could really get them down to a crawl -- especially if you used pulse-power.  His best version by far though, was the one with the 7-pole V-4.   Ray Wetzel       Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (59) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 11 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (64) .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22119	From: Larry	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

"Solid state"? There's a term I haven't heard since they removed the tube checkers from the hardware stores. Larry Miller III  On Monday, March 10, 2014 7:56 PM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: There is an article in September 1972 issue of Model Railroader titled “Motor magnets and how to charge them” by Ben King (ppg 59 – 61). It involves using filter chokes from old TV sets. I don’t know just how available these pieces are these days as most TV’s have been solid state for years albeit I have no idea if that means they do or do not have filter chokes. Methinks I’ll make a trip to the local American Scientific store and look around there.   Anyway it gives a good idea of what is involved in remagnetizing magnets. I found many references to having motor magnets remagnatized through the years in MR mags so it seems this was common practice years ago. There is a definite possibility that slot car hobby shop may be able to do it and, of course, electric motor repair shops may still be able to but where to find these places these days …….   Then it becomes a question if replacing the magnets with the rare earth magnets (As mentioned by Mike Bauers) may not be a better solution if maintaining the motors original configuration is not high on your wish list.   Or, as also mentioned just replace the motor but that can lead to problems in fitting of u-joints, flywheels, etc. to mate with the rest of the chassis. Some models will be easy other difficult. I find the idea of retaining the old, open frame motors, at least the Pittman and Pittman copies to be rather attractive to me. If I can cobble up one of Mr. King’s recharging tools I’d like to try it.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Yes.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22120	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

On 11/03/14 14:34, Larry wrote: > "Solid state"? > There's a term I haven't heard since they removed the tube checkers from the hardware stores. > Larry Miller III We used to have an assistant in the studio nicknamed 'Solid State' - he had no moving parts.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22121	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Yeah, that's the thing ya got to do when removing an armature -- put a keeper in place.  But, all too few modelers know this; it's not that often that a motor needs to be taken apart.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/10/2014 8:08:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprinthag@... writes:   More years ago than I care to think about I blithely took apart the DC-71 in my first generation Mantua Mike without placing a “keeper” across the magnets. My thought was to try to shim out some of the play in the armature shaft only to discover when I re-installed the motor it barely had any power. Luckily I had acquired a parts engine somewhere along the line and I swapped that motor in and had the power retuned. I did do some work on a couple open frame motors later on and with the use of a keeper I was able to avoid the snafu I made with the Mikes motor. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 7:24 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.   Thanks John, that's good to know about old Pittman motors keeping their power level.  Good point about keeping them intact.  Not every modeler is aware of that important little instruction to follow.  I've read that a number of times over many years, even though it was never really stressed to the readers.  There's no choice if an armature is burned out though; it needs replacing.  One thing I can't help wondering about is when some modelers upgraded their Varney V-1 6-volt motors with a Pittman DC-71 armature to convert it to 12 volts, I'm extremely curious about how much power was retained (or lost) because of the change-out, despite these V-1's now being on 12 volts Yeah, can't help but to love those Mantua metal Sharks.  While Mantua was more of an economy line of models, anything John Tyler made early on was engineered to be top running machines.  The single motor Sharks may not have been stellar performers, but put that second motor in and it ran like a champ.  As for Varney F-3's -- the original cast metal "Brutes"or even the triple pulley and spring belt versions -- there was no effort spared by Varney in making them just about 'bulletproof' when performance was taken into consideration.  By using belt on the smallest diameter section of the motor's pulley coupled to the largest diameter section of the truck's pulley, you could really get them down to a crawl -- especially if you used pulse-power.  His best version by far though, was the one with the 7-pole V-4. Ray Wetzel   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (59) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 11 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (64) .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22122	From: rick flaherty	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Attachments : Bugs P-38[48].png I miss the tube checkers! Rick From: Doug Harris <digbee@...> Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:42 PM To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors   On 11/03/14 14:34, Larry wrote: > "Solid state"? > There's a term I haven't heard since they removed the tube checkers from the hardware stores. > Larry Miller III We used to have an assistant in the studio nicknamed 'Solid State' - he had no moving parts.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22123	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/10/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

I stuttered..... It's the old 4-6-6-4 ....... Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: Languishing in a box is a Bowser 4-8-8-4 I bought at a swap ages ago. I believe it is an early 1950's kit as I recall from the instructions. It has an odd motor that has the instructions to send it in for re-magnetizing  from time to time. The motor has no power to it. It will run but not power the model. I wonder if switching to the new rare earth magnets will save the rather odd pancake motor it has? It also has the now rare Kemtron Centipede brass tender. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:24 PM, "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> wrote: I never had any contact with the earlier Bowser products. For some reason, probably their product line back in the day. I had always had dreams of getting a Challenger but never the money. Now I wouldn’t mind to own one of the NYC Pacific’s bit not “then.” And when they took over Penn Line, well I also wasn’t a fan of Pennsy steam back then either.   I liked Mikado’s and switcher’s, 0-6-0’s in particular with a bit of a soft spot for 0-4-0’s, B&O’s C-16’s and C-16a’s especially (A grand total of four engines), neither of which would lead me to Bowser’s door step. After Don Stromberg (a friend) sold Cary to Bowser I did do some inspecting of their version of some of the diesel shells and was not thrilled to see, and feel the heft of, the metal they were using at the time. Of course by this time lead had been found to be the nasty thing it always was but we never knew it to be. So I do not want to admonish  Bowser in any way for using the metal they did; things change and many of them are not to the liking of old farts like me who make up something like a few percent at best of the market place.   That said I am absolutely thrilled with their C-430, especially the GBW versions, and I have one sitting right here where I can admire it at anytime I please, which is often. Frankly I have to say that Bowser is definitely about the best builder of trains there is today.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Penn Line Castings     Jim,   I'm not surprised in the least by what you suggest, as Bowser being the probable producer of the lead boilers/shells.  This revelation fits right in with my reply to John Hagen on February 22, when I stated "in thinking back on Bowser and remembering some of the Bowser models I've worked with during the mid-70's, Bowser's metal was very much like lead, not being very hard and at the same time not being very light, as you're saying."  It was stated by John that while Cary used a softer lead antimony alloy, when Bowser purchased the line they used their (Bowser's) metal for casting the Cary line -- which was very hard and weighed less.    While I never doubted John's assertion of this at that time of Cary's takeover, I wanted to point out that Bowser's metal was not always very hard, nor did it always weigh less when cast during earlier production periods.  It drilled more like lead too, even if it might not have been pure lead, although I don't know if it was an alloy or not.  I still suspect it may have been an alloy of mostly lead though, as it didn't seem quite as soft as lead and still held its details nicely.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22124	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

On 11/03/14 14:34, Larry wrote: > "Solid state"? > There's a term I haven't heard since they removed the tube checkers from the hardware stores. > Larry Miller III Also, not sure if this group accepts attachments or not. If the owner or moderator will let me know, please?? Meantime I have scans of the MR article on magnetisers - I'll try to post it in the Files Section. A lot of the early motors were magnetised in situ - that is after the motor was assembled in the loco, and would lose a whole lot of power if the motor was dismantled. I don't think putting a keeper across the magnet would save it - it simply had to be remagnetised once the motor was assembled. This was a big problem with the Hornby Dublo OO-gauge locos we had. As boys, we would take anything apart without thought - and we didn't know about the loss of magnetism.. I also have sitting under my workbench an original Meccano Ltd Dealer Magnetiser. It was sold to me for $5 by shop owner who was selling or going out of business many years ago. It is a huge metal box, about 60 cm long, and weighs about 45 kg - ie it's damn heavy! Takes two men to move it about safely - I use a hand truck. I have never used it. It came to me without a power plug, and because it is such a huge and powerful workshop item, I've never been game to even switch it on without first having it thoroughly checked and tested by an electrical engineer, which would probably Costa Lotta. So it still sits under my workbench. One day I might get it running, but why? The new supermagnets are far superior to anything that Hornby/Meccano produced, and so are can motors. Simple - use a new can motor.. Replacing the existing magnet with a new neo *might* work - if you can find the sweet spot that produces the most power.. Away now to try and post this article to the Files Section.. I've never looked, but I assume we have one.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22125	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Attachments : photo2.jpg Motor Magnets and How To Charge Them.pdf On 11/03/14 12:49, avanti78@... wrote: > All, > Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? > How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? > Seriously, is there a way? Yep, further to my previous posting re the Meccano Magnetiser, which is presumably awaiting moderation, I'll try to post here the Files which I have. I've tried 3 times to post them to the Files section, but Neo is winning.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22126	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

HA!   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 9:42 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     We used to have an assistant in the studio nicknamed 'Solid State' - he had no moving parts.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22127	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Well, gee Mike.   But I’ll still offer $25.00 to take that old stuff off your hands.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 11:33 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.     I stuttered.....   It's the old 4-6-6-4 .......   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone   On Mar 10, 2014, at 12:41 PM, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: Languishing in a box is a Bowser 4-8-8-4 I bought at a swap ages ago.   I believe it is an early 1950's kit as I recall from the instructions.   It has an odd motor that has the instructions to send it in for re-magnetizing  from time to time.   The motor has no power to it. It will run but not power the model. I wonder if switching to the new rare earth magnets will save the rather odd pancake motor it has?   It also has the now rare Kemtron Centipede brass tender.   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (69) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 11 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22128	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Doug,   Posting it as an attachment works great!   The photo shows up which is so – so but when you click on the pdf logo the article you attached downloads to your computer as a very clear, readable article with good photos. As it is downloaded you can save it a refer to it whenever you want. It is much better to read than the same article as it displays from the MR DVD set.   This is one instance where I think Neo is better than before.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 9:59 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Also, not sure if this group accepts attachments or not. If the owner or moderator will let me know, please?? Meantime I have scans of the MR article on magnetisers - I'll try to post it in the Files Section. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22129	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

The list is set up to accept attachments, but please only .jpg or .pdf files. I wish I could help with the problems about uploading files, but yahoo has screwed me up just as much as everyone else. Don Listowner On 3/10/2014 9:58 PM, Doug Harris wrote: > On 11/03/14 14:34, Larry wrote: >> "Solid state"? >> There's a term I haven't heard since they removed the tube checkers from the hardware stores. >> Larry Miller III > Also, not sure if this group accepts attachments or not. If the owner or > moderator will let me know, please?? > > Meantime I have scans of the MR article on magnetisers - I'll try to > post it in the Files Section. > > A lot of the early motors were magnetised in situ - that is after the > motor was assembled in the loco, and would lose a whole lot of power if > the motor was dismantled. I don't think putting a keeper across the > magnet would save it - it simply had to be remagnetised once the motor > was assembled. This was a big problem with the Hornby Dublo OO-gauge > locos we had. > > As boys, we would take anything apart without thought - and we didn't > know about the loss of magnetism.. > > I also have sitting under my workbench an original Meccano Ltd Dealer > Magnetiser. It was sold to me for $5 by shop owner who was selling or > going out of business many years ago. > > It is a huge metal box, about 60 cm long, and weighs about 45 kg - ie > it's damn heavy! Takes two men to move it about safely - I use a hand > truck. I have never used it. It came to me without a power plug, and > because it is such a huge and powerful workshop item, I've never been > game to even switch it on without first having it thoroughly checked and > tested by an electrical engineer, which would probably Costa Lotta. So > it still sits under my workbench. > > One day I might get it running, but why? The new supermagnets are far > superior to anything that Hornby/Meccano produced, and so are can > motors. Simple - use a new can motor.. Replacing the existing magnet > with a new neo *might* work - if you can find the sweet spot that > produces the most power.. > > Away now to try and post this article to the Files Section.. I've never > looked, but I assume we have one.. > -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22130	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Attachments : photo2-22130.jpg On 11/03/14 21:41, Doug Harris wrote: > On 11/03/14 16:19, Doug Harris wrote: >> On 11/03/14 12:49, avanti78@... wrote: >>> All, >>> Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? >>> How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal >>> offer, along with a secret decoder ring? >>> Seriously, is there a way? >> >> Yep, further to my previous posting re the Meccano Magnetiser, which is >> presumably awaiting moderation, I'll try to post here the Files which I >> have. >> >> I've tried 3 times to post them to the Files section, but Neo is >> winning.. >> > > I'll try posting the pdf of the Instructions: > OK, that opens OK with Adobe Reader, the picture seems to have vanished - I'll try that again: -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22131	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Attachments : Motor Magnets and How To Charge Them-22131.pdf On 11/03/14 16:19, Doug Harris wrote: > On 11/03/14 12:49, avanti78@... wrote: >> All, >> Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? >> How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal >> offer, along with a secret decoder ring? >> Seriously, is there a way? > > Yep, further to my previous posting re the Meccano Magnetiser, which is > presumably awaiting moderation, I'll try to post here the Files which I > have. > > I've tried 3 times to post them to the Files section, but Neo is winning.. > I'll try posting the pdf of the Instructions: -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22132	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Hi Guys, I am familiar with this article and saved off a couple of large chokes from an old stereo set I had about 30 years ago, but never got around to doing this.  There was just something strange about connecting those chokes to a car battery that I just didn't feel right about.  Actually, I was able to find motor replacements without weak magnets cheap enough.  I don't know if I still have these chokes in the garage kicking around. Page forward to TODAY. Remember, just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If one does not wish to upgrade vintage motors to nice new can motors, (completely understandable) then considering the cheap cost and easy availability of neodymium magnets, it really doesn't make sense at all to re-magnetize the old motors using the above(questionable) method.  Way back when my older brother graduated college with his EE, he went to work for a company called General Magnetics in the Detroit area.  He did tell me about the specialized equipment used to energize magnets, so I am thinking the choke and car battery method, while it may work, is not really feasible for a real value.   Check out the following two real world articles about remagnetizing old motors with new magnets. http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html The above article is specifically for the Mantua MU type motors, used in powering sharks and other lococs.  The magnets are perfect 1/2" cubes and fit perfectly. http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/131024.aspx The above article shows a cheap way of upgrading the PM-1 motors.  You can try to find exact sizes or just stack em.  If you cannot get a perfect tight fit, shim with an appropriate sized piece of tinplate from a vegetable or coffee can.  Even if you use a 1/16" shim, the new magnets will do wonders. Here is where you can purchase the magnets, shipping is VERY reasonable, and much cheaper than chokes and car batteries. http://www.kjmagnetics.com/categories.asp?gclid=CJfAjsnGir0CFQ2hOgod6CoAdw So, it is completely understandable to want to keep the motors that came with the locos for LOTS of different and valid reasons, but in my opinion, to attempt to re-magnetize a not very good magnet boarders on wasteful.  The new neodymium magnets do three very nice things to these old motors. 1. They give them more power. 2. They start running at a much lower voltage. 3. They draw a lot less current. Considering the benefits of new magnets, I can only think that someone re-magnetizing old motors would do so only for "historical" reasons or just as an experiment to see if it can help. Just my 2 cents. Yes I do know the whole idea here is to have fun.  I have a bit more fun when my locos run better, but I also understand that some folks just like to experiment. Regards Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:56:40 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors   There is an article in September 1972 issue of Model Railroader titled “Motor magnets and how to charge them” by Ben King (ppg 59 – 61). It involves using filter chokes from old TV sets. I don’t know just how available these pieces are these days as most TV’s have been solid state for years albeit I have no idea if that means they do or do not have filter chokes. Methinks I’ll make a trip to the local American Scientific store and look around there.   Anyway it gives a good idea of what is involved in remagnetizing magnets. I found many references to having motor magnets remagnatized through the years in MR mags so it seems this was common practice years ago. There is a definite possibility that slot car hobby shop may be able to do it and, of course, electric motor repair shops may still be able to but where to find these places these days …….   Then it becomes a question if replacing the magnets with the rare earth magnets (As mentioned by Mike Bauers) may not be a better solution if maintaining the motors original configuration is not high on your wish list.   Or, as also mentioned just replace the motor but that can lead to problems in fitting of u-joints, flywheels, etc. to mate with the rest of the chassis. Some models will be easy other difficult. I find the idea of retaining the old, open frame motors, at least the Pittman and Pittman copies to be rather attractive to me. If I can cobble up one of Mr. King’s recharging tools I’d like to try it.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Yes.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22133	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe

Attachments : Hi Denis, Yep, I am luckily somewhat dexterous with my fingers, I hope I stay that way for a few more years.  I have actually put together two sets of valve gear on a couple of 4-6-2 kits.  One a Mantua Pacific and the other a Bowser K-4.  The Mantua Pacific was actually a lot of fun doing it and I had no trouble.  As I recall the one caution mentioned in the instructions was to to ensure to make a right side and a left side.  I am not sure why the Bowser K-4 was not as much fun, I do not recall any problems building it?   The most interesting valve gear to work with was a couple of brass locos.  One, a Gem 0-4-0 A5s and that one is a doozey.  If you need to separate the valve gear from the loco, it would be really good to take photos or a the very least make an accurate sketch of both sides.  Putting it back in place rqeuires about 4 hands.  UGH!  The other is an older (International Models ?) U.S.R.A. 0-6-0.  That one was't as bad, even though the valve gear is quite complex.  Maybe it was engineered better or just maybe the parts are a bit bigger? But, yes, I have had my fair share of "puzzle" work. Sorry to hear about the nerve issue.  I hope you can persist as I find this kind of work a bit challenging, but also a bit of fun as well. Good luck and regards Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: avanti78@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 15:23:12 -0600 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Oh yeah, Vic? Try putting together the valve gear hanger/levers/cross guides on a B./P.L. T-1 (or any other model). While I’m no model mechanic, I have built two B. Challengers & rehabbed another, and have put together a B. T-1. However, I’m just enough older now, and have developed two nerve problems in my hands, that makes this job a misery.  I will persist though, as I have another one after this. Denis         From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2014 9:31 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Yeah, I like the Thomas cars as well.  I have two, a single dome Philgas and a 6 dome Roma Wine car.  The Philgas I bought as a pristine kit and had no real trouble assembling it.  I did have to play with the hand rail stanchion/holders.  They are made from bendable tin and are inserted from inside the tank and then pushed out to protrude through the openings in the tank shell That was a job and you haven't lived until you built one of these.   The Roma Wine car was in a $2 dollar car box and it was in really bad shape.  But, upon close examination, most parts were present, including the domes.  The paint on the tank was not bad either.  A tiny bit worn, but much better shape than many on eBay (for $40 plus).  I did need to make up 2 of the frame side sections as they were missing.  Using one of the two existing ones, I made two of them from .062" brass.  I could have made them from styrene and it would have been a lot easier, but what the heck they are metal cars.  The two hardest parts of the restoration was the handrail stanchions.....again and installing Kadee couplers.  The car is now doing duty on the layout and looks perfect.  I am very proud of that $2 acquisition. Regards, Vic B.           Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: garrettspear@... Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:15:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe     Hi Guys, My Train of Thomas Tank cars also included three globe tank cars.  Two different numbers of he Hercules tank car.  I simply added the to the pictures and mailing process.  I have a spread sheet with 18 different catalog numbers for globe tank cars.  The WARREN cars is #8000C.  I own examples of 13 different catalog numbers, plus duplicates with different car numbers. I like metal tank cars and always looked for them. Garrett (Garry) Spear   On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 11:14 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:     Chuck,   Thanks again for your help in filing the Thomas tanks.  As for the two Globe cars, I'm puzzled as to what they're doing in Thomas discussions, although I see that Garry had replied to a member named Larry -- whom Yahoo never sent me a message from.  Missing this part, I'm left a bit in the dark.  Still, while any pics are always appreciated, the Globe Hercules (Black) 310 has been well documented in print for at least 27 years (I've had this car for about 40 years myself).  The Warren 1155 hasn't been as well documented and should be welcomed by some as another Globe car in existence.    As I'm no longer able to get to the files, since I'm unable to navigate the Yahoo Neo format (maybe because of my older, XP OS?), I'm not sure why you bring up Athearn metal tank cars at this time.  Apparently though, from what you indicate, there's a file listed on them (did we do that?) but I don't recall if it included Globe cars.  If you feel Athearn needs to be revised, let me know and I'll send you something for a spreadsheet.  Problem is, since I can't get to the files, I don't know what's missing.  I could probably send just the metal tank car portion though, for you to match up with the file listing if you think it's needed.  The entire Athearn metal series could take a long while to get done however, since there's over 700 different cars when taking into consideration all of the roadname's different car numbers.  I have about 90% of them, but I don't remember sending you all their numbers.  I've seen some of the ones I'm missing being put up on eBay, but the prices are too steep and I'm getting too old to collect much more when I really should be getting rid of them < g >.  I still do pick up stuff there as it's hard to beat that pack-rat syndrome (LOL).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:53:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:     OK, added and also a file with the two Globe cars.  But I do see another list in the file section with Athearn metal tank cars, which is more accurate. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Chuck, Alright, it's been a while since comprehensive discussions of Thomas Industries were gone through and I thought we did a file on what they made.  Been too long though, but I'm positive that a full listing was aired on the group, even if it wasn't filed.  Yes, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you'd like to make a file on them.  Just be sure to include the second variation on the Mathieson Chemicals (green) car, not the third variation on the Columbia Southern car I just mentioned.  Mant thanks, Ray Wetzel In a message dated 3/4/2014 9:14:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vze5crrw1@... writes:   Ray, I just looked at my files and we must have missed this one.  I have one started, but with only one item listed.  I can make a list from the below and include the links. Take care, Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1> From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 3:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Thomas Tank Cars + Two Globe   Hi Gary, Good to see Thomas cars again.  I believe this is a manufacturer which Chuck Higdon and I did a file on a number of years ago.  Actually, there's lots of stuff in the archives that questions are repeated on occasionally when it can be found there.  I like the pics however as it brings them to life.  You're missing one of the variants though.  If I recall correctly it's yet another Columbia Southern, and it's red and green.  Check the files and they should tell you. Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/4/2014 1:37:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, garrettspear@... writes:   Hi All, Here are some pictures of Thomas Tank Cars with a catalog list.  A complete selection, to my knowledge. THOMAS TANK CARS CATALOG DESCRIPTION: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450792/1_f.jpg LP-707 COLUMBIA SOUTHERN Red & Black: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450788/1_f.jpg LP-704 SINCLAIR: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450786/1_f.jpg LP-707 Columbia Southern Maroon & Blue: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450782/1_f.jpg A-701 APCO: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450780/1_f.jpg LP-703 Mathieson Chemicals: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450776/1_f.jpg LP-702 Philgas: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450770/1_f.jpg D-701 DX Sunray: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450768/1_f.jpg B-705 Baker's Chocolate: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450766/1_f.jpg M-701 MAGNOLIA: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450764/1_f.jpg AM-706 AMBROSE WINE CO:http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450760/1_f.jpg R-706 ROMA WINE co: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450756/1_f.jpg GLOBE TANK CARS HPCX 310, HERCULES POWDER COMPANY: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450762/1_f.jpg WRNX 1155, WARREN: http://img1.jpegbay.com/gallery/003450784/1_f.jpg Garrett (Garry) Spear Larry, Please use these pictures for the HO SEEKER site. Garry

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22134	From: maryinvt2	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0

Anyone know what shade of green Varney used on their Southern Railway 2-8-0? I have the engine but lack a tender for it so I would like to paint one up to match the locomotive. I would like to use a water based paint and would appreciate knowing what paint to use. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22135	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Attachments : Thanks, Vic and the Person that Indicated that He attached the Magnets to the Existing Motor Housing, I have purchased a bunch of the K&G magnets, which I intend to attach to the top of the Pittman housing on my current T-1 projects.   What I’m not sure of is the orientation of the new magnets on the housing.   I think I understand the north/south & compass procedure, but the introduction of how the existing magnets where initially magnetized, is something I don’t know how to establish. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 8:19 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Hi Guys, I am familiar with this article and saved off a couple of large chokes from an old stereo set I had about 30 years ago, but never got around to doing this.  There was just something strange about connecting those chokes to a car battery that I just didn't feel right about.  Actually, I was able to find motor replacements without weak magnets cheap enough.  I don't know if I still have these chokes in the garage kicking around. Page forward to TODAY. Remember, just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If one does not wish to upgrade vintage motors to nice new can motors, (completely understandable) then considering the cheap cost and easy availability of neodymium magnets, it really doesn't make sense at all to re-magnetize the old motors using the above(questionable) method.  Way back when my older brother graduated college with his EE, he went to work for a company called General Magnetics in the Detroit area.  He did tell me about the specialized equipment used to energize magnets, so I am thinking the choke and car battery method, while it may work, is not really feasible for a real value.   Check out the following two real world articles about remagnetizing old motors with new magnets.   http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html   The above article is specifically for the Mantua MU type motors, used in powering sharks and other lococs.  The magnets are perfect 1/2" cubes and fit perfectly.   http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/131024.aspx   The above article shows a cheap way of upgrading the PM-1 motors.  You can try to find exact sizes or just stack em.  If you cannot get a perfect tight fit, shim with an appropriate sized piece of tinplate from a vegetable or coffee can.  Even if you use a 1/16" shim, the new magnets will do wonders.   Here is where you can purchase the magnets, shipping is VERY reasonable, and much cheaper than chokes and car batteries.   http://www.kjmagnetics.com/categories.asp?gclid=CJfAjsnGir0CFQ2hOgod6CoAdw   So, it is completely understandable to want to keep the motors that came with the locos for LOTS of different and valid reasons, but in my opinion, to attempt to re-magnetize a not very good magnet boarders on wasteful.  The new neodymium magnets do three very nice things to these old motors. 1. They give them more power. 2. They start running at a much lower voltage. 3. They draw a lot less current. Considering the benefits of new magnets, I can only think that someone re-magnetizing old motors would do so only for "historical" reasons or just as an experiment to see if it can help.   Just my 2 cents. Yes I do know the whole idea here is to have fun.  I have a bit more fun when my locos run better, but I also understand that some folks just like to experiment. Regards Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:56:40 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     There is an article in September 1972 issue of Model Railroader titled “Motor magnets and how to charge them” by Ben King (ppg 59 – 61). It involves using filter chokes from old TV sets. I don’t know just how available these pieces are these days as most TV’s have been solid state for years albeit I have no idea if that means they do or do not have filter chokes. Methinks I’ll make a trip to the local American Scientific store and look around there.   Anyway it gives a good idea of what is involved in remagnetizing magnets. I found many references to having motor magnets remagnatized through the years in MR mags so it seems this was common practice years ago. There is a definite possibility that slot car hobby shop may be able to do it and, of course, electric motor repair shops may still be able to but where to find these places these days …….   Then it becomes a question if replacing the magnets with the rare earth magnets (As mentioned by Mike Bauers) may not be a better solution if maintaining the motors original configuration is not high on your wish list.   Or, as also mentioned just replace the motor but that can lead to problems in fitting of u-joints, flywheels, etc. to mate with the rest of the chassis. Some models will be easy other difficult. I find the idea of retaining the old, open frame motors, at least the Pittman and Pittman copies to be rather attractive to me. If I can cobble up one of Mr. King’s recharging tools I’d like to try it.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Yes.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22136	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0

For Richard - Sou green for Varney - I have begun using the "Anita's - Americana" line of craft acrylics. Since they catalog 263 different colors in the Americana line plus more colors in their other lines. They are quite thick, intended for brush application so need to be thinned 1 to 1 or more depending on your airbrush. Under the "DuraClear" name they catalog gloss, satin and flat clear paint. All water based. It's beeen a long time since I held a Varney Sou loco but I might suggest that you start with the "Holley Green" #DA048. At roughly $1 per 2oz bottle I experiment with mixing my own colors. You can order from their web site. I usually pick up my supply at Hobby Lobby. Make sure to get a "color wheel" for a quick guide as to which colors do what when mixed if you don't have one. Jake Bechtel Gadsden, AL On 3/11/14, rh@... <rh@...> wrote: > Anyone know what shade of green Varney used on their Southern Railway 2-8-0? > I have the engine but lack a tender for it so I would like to paint one up > to match the locomotive. I would like to use a water based paint and would > appreciate knowing what paint to use. Richard in Vermont >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22137	From: maryinvt2	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0

Jake, Many thanks for the tip on Americana paints. I will look for them at Walmart. How well do they compare to Polly-S paint? Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22138	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0

americana vs polly scale: 2 oz $1 vs 1/2 oz $5 Americana are flat paint, fairly thick, settle fairly well when brushed, thin with water, mix well together. The "Anita's" line of acrylics includes about 500 color shades when you include the gloss, metallic and translucent lines. I like them better than polly scale based on cost, availability, mixability, etc. I find all acrylics troublesome to use in a air brush. Mainly because I grew up with airplane "dope", lacquers and slow drying enamels. Oh ! If you go to www.decoart.com there is a colorchart for many of the Americana colors. Jake On 3/11/14, rh@... <rh@...> wrote: > Jake, Many thanks for the tip on Americana paints. I will look for them at > Walmart. How well do they compare to Polly-S paint? > Richard in Vermont >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22139	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

On 12/03/14 0:27, Don Dellmann wrote: > The list is set up to accept attachments, but please only .jpg or .pdf > files. > > I wish I could help with the problems about uploading files, but yahoo > has screwed me up just as much as everyone else. > > Don Thanks for the reply, Don. I moderate a train group also, and I just hate trying to get to post pictures or files. Neo sucks! Well, it works, but its instructions and click boxes are miles away from being instinctive.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22140	From: maryinvt2	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0

Jake, Thank you again for taking time to go into so much detail. I tried to find the color chart but no luck. For thinning, do you use water or alcohol or a combination of both for air brushing? Sounds like this paint is every bit as good as Polly Scale. I got used to it for painting plastic and am sorry to see it go.  Richard in VT

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22141	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/11/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

On 12/03/14 2:18, Victor Bitleris wrote: > Hi Guys,I am familiar with this article and saved off a couple of > large chokes from an old stereo set I had about 30 years ago, but > never got around to doing this. There was just something strange > about connecting those chokes to a car battery that I just didn't > feel right about. Actually, I was able to find motor replacements > without weak magnets cheap enough. I don't know if I still have > these chokes in the garage kicking around.Page forward to > TODAY.Remember, just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD.If one > does not wish to upgrade vintage motors to nice new can motors, > (completely understandable) then considering the cheap cost and easy > availability of neodymium magnets, it really doesn't make sense at > all to re-magnetize the old motors using the above(questionable) > method. Way back when my older brother graduated college with his > EE, he went to work for a company called General Magnetics in the > Detroit area. He did tell me about the specialized equipment used to > energize magnets, so I am thinking the choke and car battery method, > while it may work, is not really feasible for a real value. Hi Victor. My understanding is that the current draw at the moment of re-magnetising is considerable, if not extreme. I have my doubts about wanting to do that to any battery that I own! I think my factory model builds up an electrical charge (the electrical parts inside it are massive). Neo is the way to go.. (With the exception of yahoo.) -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22142	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

I totally agree. :o) Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC Neo is the way to go.. (With the exception of yahoo.) -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22143	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0

Hi Richard, I agree that poly Scale was/is very good paint, but all may not be totally lost.  Polly Scale is basically the same as Testors Model Master Acrylic paints.  Many of our favorite Railroad colors will be moved, if they already do not exist, into that line.  Additionally, I believe there are charts available that matchup which color of the Model Master line we would want to use.   http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?31917-Testors%EF%BF%BD-Model-Master-Line-To-Add-Railroad-Colors Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: rh@... Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 21:39:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0   Jake, Thank you again for taking time to go into so much detail. I tried to find the color chart but no luck. For thinning, do you use water or alcohol or a combination of both for air brushing? Sounds like this paint is every bit as good as Polly Scale. I got used to it for painting plastic and am sorry to see it go.  Richard in VT

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22144	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Hi Denis, I agree that this magnetism polarity issue could get confusing.  But, I am quite sure it can be easily simplified.  The important part is to install the new magnet in the same polarity orientation as the old one.  There are a couple of ways to get it wrong.  One way the motor would run backward, the other ways, it may not run at all.   So, while the old magnet is still in place, find out how it is oriented.  You can do that using the new magnets.  If the new magnet sticks to the old, that should be a good orientation.   I would limit myself to ONE magnet if I could or at least ONE STACK of magnets if one magnet won't do.  If you use TWO stacks, then there are real orientation issues, ie. they two stacks need to repel, is my understanding. (not sure why? and I could be wrong here).  Don't be alarmed if the only magnets you get are smaller than the original.  Even magnets of half the original size will do wonders to the motor.  Example; old magnet 1/2" high by 1/2" and  3/8" deep can be replaced very nicely with four 1/8" by 1/4" by 1/2" or 3/8 " magnets.  As long as the magnetic orientation is good.  If you cannot get a good "seal" or a nice fit, just add tin shims to the top and/or bottom to get a good fit, it works. Now, I am aware that Pittman made several different styles of DC motors, but I am not sure of the style you refer to and I am not sure what you mean by "attach to the top of the Pittman housing"?  Some of the laminated Pittman motors can be interesting to replace magnets in and that work would need to be studied. However, the regular Pittman open frame motors that can be found, for example, in Hobbytown of Boston chassis can have the magnets easily replaced.  I would expect that you would REPLACE the old magnet and not add on top of it.  I question if placing on top of an existing magnet would help?  The URLs I referred to showed examples of replaced magnets. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: avanti78@... Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:27:06 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors   Thanks, Vic and the Person that Indicated that He attached the Magnets to the Existing Motor Housing, I have purchased a bunch of the K&G magnets, which I intend to attach to the top of the Pittman housing on my current T-1 projects.   What I’m not sure of is the orientation of the new magnets on the housing.   I think I understand the north/south & compass procedure, but the introduction of how the existing magnets where initially magnetized, is something I don’t know how to establish. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 8:19 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Hi Guys, I am familiar with this article and saved off a couple of large chokes from an old stereo set I had about 30 years ago, but never got around to doing this.  There was just something strange about connecting those chokes to a car battery that I just didn't feel right about.  Actually, I was able to find motor replacements without weak magnets cheap enough.  I don't know if I still have these chokes in the garage kicking around. Page forward to TODAY. Remember, just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If one does not wish to upgrade vintage motors to nice new can motors, (completely understandable) then considering the cheap cost and easy availability of neodymium magnets, it really doesn't make sense at all to re-magnetize the old motors using the above(questionable) method.  Way back when my older brother graduated college with his EE, he went to work for a company called General Magnetics in the Detroit area.  He did tell me about the specialized equipment used to energize magnets, so I am thinking the choke and car battery method, while it may work, is not really feasible for a real value.   Check out the following two real world articles about remagnetizing old motors with new magnets.   http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html   The above article is specifically for the Mantua MU type motors, used in powering sharks and other lococs.  The magnets are perfect 1/2" cubes and fit perfectly.   http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/131024.aspx   The above article shows a cheap way of upgrading the PM-1 motors.  You can try to find exact sizes or just stack em.  If you cannot get a perfect tight fit, shim with an appropriate sized piece of tinplate from a vegetable or coffee can.  Even if you use a 1/16" shim, the new magnets will do wonders.   Here is where you can purchase the magnets, shipping is VERY reasonable, and much cheaper than chokes and car batteries.   http://www.kjmagnetics.com/categories.asp?gclid=CJfAjsnGir0CFQ2hOgod6CoAdw   So, it is completely understandable to want to keep the motors that came with the locos for LOTS of different and valid reasons, but in my opinion, to attempt to re-magnetize a not very good magnet boarders on wasteful.  The new neodymium magnets do three very nice things to these old motors. 1. They give them more power. 2. They start running at a much lower voltage. 3. They draw a lot less current. Considering the benefits of new magnets, I can only think that someone re-magnetizing old motors would do so only for "historical" reasons or just as an experiment to see if it can help.   Just my 2 cents. Yes I do know the whole idea here is to have fun.  I have a bit more fun when my locos run better, but I also understand that some folks just like to experiment. Regards Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:56:40 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     There is an article in September 1972 issue of Model Railroader titled “Motor magnets and how to charge them” by Ben King (ppg 59 – 61). It involves using filter chokes from old TV sets. I don’t know just how available these pieces are these days as most TV’s have been solid state for years albeit I have no idea if that means they do or do not have filter chokes. Methinks I’ll make a trip to the local American Scientific store and look around there.   Anyway it gives a good idea of what is involved in remagnetizing magnets. I found many references to having motor magnets remagnatized through the years in MR mags so it seems this was common practice years ago. There is a definite possibility that slot car hobby shop may be able to do it and, of course, electric motor repair shops may still be able to but where to find these places these days …….   Then it becomes a question if replacing the magnets with the rare earth magnets (As mentioned by Mike Bauers) may not be a better solution if maintaining the motors original configuration is not high on your wish list.   Or, as also mentioned just replace the motor but that can lead to problems in fitting of u-joints, flywheels, etc. to mate with the rest of the chassis. Some models will be easy other difficult. I find the idea of retaining the old, open frame motors, at least the Pittman and Pittman copies to be rather attractive to me. If I can cobble up one of Mr. King’s recharging tools I’d like to try it.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Yes.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22145	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0

Dear Richard, I use water ??? Createx sells prethinned for airbrushing acrylics and premixed reducer (#5608). Unfortunately it is about 4x as costly as the paints from Anita's. A workable reduction seems to be 1:1 for a 0.5mm tip. This paint does dry quickly when aprayed at 35 - 50 psi !! I haven't yet found a drying time retarder to use with these. I did find a prep that allows these paints to stick to engineering plastics. It is "Fplkart" #11122-2B Enamel clear medium - directions say it is for "glass and ceramics" - I figured that if it would make the paint stick to glass it ought to work on plastic?? All of these paints come in 2oz bottles. Jake in Alabama On 3/11/14, rh@... <rh@...> wrote: > Jake, Thank you again for taking time to go into so much detail. I tried to > find the color chart but no luck. For thinning, do you use water or alcohol > or a combination of both for air brushing? Sounds like this paint is every > bit as good as Polly Scale. I got used to it for painting plastic and am > sorry to see it go. > Richard in VT >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22146	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0

Richard - for color charts, go to the Decoart home page, scroll down to the bottom and chck out the "Resources" box. The Americana color chart is a big file, about 4 meg, there is also a color conversion chart. Jake in Alabama On 3/11/14, rh@... <rh@...> wrote: > Jake, Thank you again for taking time to go into so much detail. I tried to > find the color chart but no luck. For thinning, do you use water or alcohol > or a combination of both for air brushing? Sounds like this paint is every > bit as good as Polly Scale. I got used to it for painting plastic and am > sorry to see it go. > Richard in VT >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22147	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

I need to look closely at it. It's tucked away for now and I remember that the motor was rather short and its designed chassis space was also rather short. I had thought of replacing it with a similar disk-drive type of motor. Meanwhile, I was cleaning up the place and stumbled across a white plastic bag in a drawer. When I opened it I found several high-quality Canon motors I had bought and tucked away quite a while ago. Maybe one of those would be a nice replacement. Otherwise, I understand a bit about how to replace the original motor magnet with a new rare earth magnet of a different shape. It's something I should try out............. wouldn't hurt! Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Mar 10, 2014, at 3:57 PM, Denis Long <avanti78@...> wrote: Mike, I don’t know why the new magnets wouldn’t transform that motor, but as has been written, you are confronted with a reason for not installing a can.  Unless you wish to keep it original.  What I have done is to replace the old motor, put it in the box, install the can.  That way, when your wife sells the engine for .59 the new owner will have the original.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 12:42 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.     Languishing in a box is a Bowser 4-8-8-4 [4-6-6-4 !!!] I bought at a swap ages ago.   I believe it is an early 1950's kit as I recall from the instructions.   It has an odd motor that has the instructions to send it in for re-magnetizing  from time to time.   The motor has no power to it. It will run but not power the model.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22148	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Actually, I did much the same with my first HO locomotive, another Tyco Mike. I never properly repowered it. It's gathered a lot of dust since then. It sure would make a nice update project. I'd mainly want to change out the old Mantua small axle idler wheel sets and put in better contemporary wheel-sets if not better tender trucks as well. It helps to have a little mill for that. I wouldn't mind retooling the original idler trucks to fit the better contemporary wheel-sets, add some additional pick-ups and just perhaps a DCC sound system. I think I put the original motor back on just to keep it from rolling away on the shelf. At least I may have the mating worm that way. Its likely a good motor to try to restore with a new rare-earth magnet.  Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Mar 10, 2014, at 8:07 PM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: More years ago than I care to think about I blithely took apart the DC-71 in my first generation Mantua Mike without placing a “keeper” across the magnets. My thought was to try to shim out some of the play in the armature shaft only to discover when I re-installed the motor it barely had any power. Luckily I had acquired a parts engine somewhere along the line and I swapped that motor in and had the power retuned.   I did do some work on a couple open frame motors later on and with the use of a keeper I was able to avoid the snafu I made with the Mikes motor.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 7:24 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.     Thanks John, that's good to know about old Pittman motors keeping their power level.  Good point about keeping them intact.  Not every modeler is aware of that important little instruction to follow.  I've read that a number of times over many years, even though it was never really stressed to the readers.  There's no choice if an armature is burned out though; it needs replacing.  One thing I can't help wondering about is when some modelers upgraded their Varney V-1 6-volt motors with a Pittman DC-71 armature to convert it to 12 volts, I'm extremely curious about how much power was retained (or lost) because of the change-out, despite these V-1's now being on 12 volts   Yeah, can't help but to love those Mantua metal Sharks.  While Mantua was more of an economy line of models, anything John Tyler made early on was engineered to be top running machines.  The single motor Sharks may not have been stellar performers, but put that second motor in and it ran like a champ.  As for Varney F-3's -- the original cast metal "Brutes"or even the triple pulley and spring belt versions -- there was no effort spared by Varney in making them just about 'bulletproof' when performance was taken into consideration.  By using belt on the smallest diameter section of the motor's pulley coupled to the largest diameter section of the truck's pulley, you could really get them down to a crawl -- especially if you used pulse-power.  His best version by far though, was the one with the 7-pole V-4.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22149	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

But then what would I do with that hard to find Cal-Scale super detail set I found for it??? You know the one that goes with that two installment MR article of ages ago. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Mar 11, 2014, at 3:55 AM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > > Well, gee Mike. > > But I’ll still offer $25.00 to take that old stuff off your hands. > > John Hagen > >> From: Mike Bauers >> >> I stuttered..... >> >> It's the old 4-6-6-4 .......

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22150	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Mantua diesel motors question.

I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion? Or is it just a matter of measuring between the plates and getting one to fit there? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this? I know there was a link to this, can someone repeat that to me? I'd like to see it again in hopes that there were some sort of test results like I think I remember reading. I must have looked at the link on my phone and sort of lost my reference to it. Thanks. Now I'm wishing I had been more aggressive on the last Mantua Streamliner that went through eBay. The cars were in need of some repairs, but the engine was complete and looked to be mostly in need of a re-paint. One reason I backed off was the lame-looking Mantua power truck. I've never known one of those to run decently. Although its native quite fast speed would be a plus for that train. I have shells and car-sets to make up my own Mantua streamliner. Maybe I should just go primitive and make a HiFi belt drive for it? That would make the thing zip well enough for the class of passenger equipment it depicts........... a scale 200 mph-plus drive, if I keep the throttle in the mid-range. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22151	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

Yes, this is a very easy upgrade.  It uses a 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/2" block magnet.  Check out the following: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:31:28 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion? Or is it just a matter of measuring between the plates and getting one to fit there? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this? I know there was a link to this, can someone repeat that to me? I'd like to see it again in hopes that there were some sort of test results like I think I remember reading. I must have looked at the link on my phone and sort of lost my reference to it. Thanks. Now I'm wishing I had been more aggressive on the last Mantua Streamliner that went through eBay. The cars were in need of some repairs, but the engine was complete and looked to be mostly in need of a re-paint. One reason I backed off was the lame-looking Mantua power truck. I've never known one of those to run decently. Although its native quite fast speed would be a plus for that train. I have shells and car-sets to make up my own Mantua streamliner. Maybe I should just go primitive and make a HiFi belt drive for it? That would make the thing zip well enough for the class of passenger equipment it depicts........... a scale 200 mph-plus drive, if I keep the throttle in the mid-range. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22152	From: dwaite2000	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: while on a 'motor' topic

Does anyone remember a conversion kit (many years ago, maybe as much as 30) that used an Athearn armature and supplied a new case/end bits etc.? The idea was to make a 'can' type notor using the Athearn part(s). I had one and let it go. Now CRS has erased all memory of who made it, did it work etc. Thanks, Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22153	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

Thank you Vic ! This makes the local swap meets even more tempting. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Mar 12, 2014, at 12:43 PM, Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> wrote: > > > Yes, this is a very easy upgrade. It uses a 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/2" block magnet. Check out the following: > http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html > Regards, > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC > > From: mwbauers > > I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. > > Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22154	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

I'll give you an extra $5.00 for that too. Such a great deal how could you possibly refuse? John Hagen -----Original Message----- From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:18 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger. But then what would I do with that hard to find Cal-Scale super detail set I found for it??? You know the one that goes with that two installment MR article of ages ago. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Mar 11, 2014, at 3:55 AM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > > Well, gee Mike. > > But I'll still offer $25.00 to take that old stuff off your hands. > > John Hagen > >> From: Mike Bauers >> >> I stuttered..... >> >> It's the old 4-6-6-4 ....... ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22155	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

Which polarity attracts the North point of the compass needle, + or - ? I repaired one of my Mantua diesels with this type motor but it never was was a speed demon.  Don Staton in VA =================================================== On 3/12/2014 1:43 PM, Victor Bitleris wrote:   Yes, this is a very easy upgrade.  It uses a 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/2" block magnet.  Check out the following: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:31:28 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion? Or is it just a matter of measuring between the plates and getting one to fit there? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this? I know there was a link to this, can someone repeat that to me? I'd like to see it again in hopes that there were some sort of test results like I think I remember reading. I must have looked at the link on my phone and sort of lost my reference to it. Thanks. Now I'm wishing I had been more aggressive on the last Mantua Streamliner that went through eBay. The cars were in need of some repairs, but the engine was complete and looked to be mostly in need of a re-paint. One reason I backed off was the lame-looking Mantua power truck. I've never known one of those to run decently. Although its native quite fast speed would be a plus for that train. I have shells and car-sets to make up my own Mantua streamliner. Maybe I should just go primitive and make a HiFi belt drive for it? That would make the thing zip well enough for the class of passenger equipment it depicts........... a scale 200 mph-plus drive, if I keep the throttle in the mid-range. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22156	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

I don't know, just align it to be the same as the old motor.  Set the new magnet on top of the old magnet and if it sticks, that should be the orientation.  The compass trick may or may not work, it depends on if the compass has been "re-magnetized"?  Technically the N pole of the magnet should cause the painted part (north) of the needle to attract.  If you get the S pole to close to the needle, it may change the compass orientation.  I would leave the compass out of this effort. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: chpln1@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:07:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   Which polarity attracts the North point of the compass needle, + or - ? I repaired one of my Mantua diesels with this type motor but it never was was a speed demon.  Don Staton in VA =================================================== On 3/12/2014 1:43 PM, Victor Bitleris wrote:   Yes, this is a very easy upgrade.  It uses a 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/2" block magnet.  Check out the following: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:31:28 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion? Or is it just a matter of measuring between the plates and getting one to fit there? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this? I know there was a link to this, can someone repeat that to me? I'd like to see it again in hopes that there were some sort of test results like I think I remember reading. I must have looked at the link on my phone and sort of lost my reference to it. Thanks. Now I'm wishing I had been more aggressive on the last Mantua Streamliner that went through eBay. The cars were in need of some repairs, but the engine was complete and looked to be mostly in need of a re-paint. One reason I backed off was the lame-looking Mantua power truck. I've never known one of those to run decently. Although its native quite fast speed would be a plus for that train. I have shells and car-sets to make up my own Mantua streamliner. Maybe I should just go primitive and make a HiFi belt drive for it? That would make the thing zip well enough for the class of passenger equipment it depicts........... a scale 200 mph-plus drive, if I keep the throttle in the mid-range. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22157	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

Okay guys,,   I musta missed something here about old Mantua diesel drives. My original, first generation Shark did anything but run too fast and my recently acquired two motor Shark of the same vintage barely moves fast enough albeit that is likely due to its having two motors.   And the very last Mantua diesel drive with the can motor and flywheel certainly runs very well at low speeds albeit I haven’t tried to see how fast it will run at full throttle as all I have at present is a three foot track for testing. No problem with full throttle on the two motor shark as it just does not move all that fast. I tested with two different throttles; a Spectrum Magnum Ultra Plus with 2.5 amps and an oldie but goodie Marn-O-Power with 2.5 amps. I do also have a second generation Mantua Shark with one motor that runs well enough but I did not try a full throttle run with it either. I will have to do that one of these days but as I recall my first, 1953 Shark was not a speedy piece either did then I’m trying to recall operations going back like fifty years.   That said I have had no experience with any Mantua diesel drives built between their very first and their very last nor any of the Tyco diesels built during the Tyco only days. The only problems I noticed with the early drives were the overly long wheelbase and the dang nab truck mounted couplers. The only problem with the last drive was the dang nab truck mounted couplers.   The long wheel base was addressed with Mantua’s last two diesel drives which includes their first can motored drive w/o the flywheel and, of course the flywheel equipped version of the same drive. These drives both had proper wheelbase and some nice Blomberg sideframes. Unfortunately they never did any with AAR “B: sideframes so I will have to adapt some from a different make for my repowered Shark.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.     Yes, this is a very easy upgrade.  It uses a 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/2" block magnet.  Check out the following: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:31:28 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion? Or is it just a matter of measuring between the plates and getting one to fit there? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this? I know there was a link to this, can someone repeat that to me? I'd like to see it again in hopes that there were some sort of test results like I think I remember reading. I must have looked at the link on my phone and sort of lost my reference to it. Thanks. Now I'm wishing I had been more aggressive on the last Mantua Streamliner that went through eBay. The cars were in need of some repairs, but the engine was complete and looked to be mostly in need of a re-paint. One reason I backed off was the lame-looking Mantua power truck. I've never known one of those to run decently. Although its native quite fast speed would be a plus for that train. I have shells and car-sets to make up my own Mantua streamliner. Maybe I should just go primitive and make a HiFi belt drive for it? That would make the thing zip well enough for the class of passenger equipment it depicts........... a scale 200 mph-plus drive, if I keep the throttle in the mid-range. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22158	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

Hi John, I have a few of the old cast metal sharks (3 A's and 1 B) and all with the same MU-2 motor truck.  I do agree with you that they really don't run too fast.  I actually feel like they run just right and have pretty good control.  In fact they generally seem to run pretty smooth as well and have a nice sound resonating out of the metal shells.  :o)  I plan on experimenting with the magnet, since it is pretty much of a no brainer to replace.  There may be some benefit to changing the magnet out, such as a drop in starting voltage, less current draw (these really are not current hogs just as they are), and supposedly a bit more power.  I have heard they cannot pull very many cars, but I have not tried that yet.  Maybe for some owners the magnets have lost a bit of oomph over the years, but none of mine seem to be in that condition, so my changes will be strictly for experimentation. The only real complaints I have on these pretty good locomotives are the wheels and the truck mounted couplers.  I think there may be some solutions for the couplers, but I haven't fully explored them yet.  The wheels on the other hand really should be replaced with nickle silver to get better current pickup.  I have heard that NWSL has some wheelsets that are close, but not quite the same axle diameter as the Mantua.  I am not quite stout hearted enough to try replacing the axles, considering there are NO gear replacements if something bad happens. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:03:36 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   Okay guys,,   I musta missed something here about old Mantua diesel drives. My original, first generation Shark did anything but run too fast and my recently acquired two motor Shark of the same vintage barely moves fast enough albeit that is likely due to its having two motors.   And the very last Mantua diesel drive with the can motor and flywheel certainly runs very well at low speeds albeit I haven’t tried to see how fast it will run at full throttle as all I have at present is a three foot track for testing. No problem with full throttle on the two motor shark as it just does not move all that fast. I tested with two different throttles; a Spectrum Magnum Ultra Plus with 2.5 amps and an oldie but goodie Marn-O-Power with 2.5 amps. I do also have a second generation Mantua Shark with one motor that runs well enough but I did not try a full throttle run with it either. I will have to do that one of these days but as I recall my first, 1953 Shark was not a speedy piece either did then I’m trying to recall operations going back like fifty years.   That said I have had no experience with any Mantua diesel drives built between their very first and their very last nor any of the Tyco diesels built during the Tyco only days. The only problems I noticed with the early drives were the overly long wheelbase and the dang nab truck mounted couplers. The only problem with the last drive was the dang nab truck mounted couplers.   The long wheel base was addressed with Mantua’s last two diesel drives which includes their first can motored drive w/o the flywheel and, of course the flywheel equipped version of the same drive. These drives both had proper wheelbase and some nice Blomberg sideframes. Unfortunately they never did any with AAR “B: sideframes so I will have to adapt some from a different make for my repowered Shark.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.     Yes, this is a very easy upgrade.  It uses a 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/2" block magnet.  Check out the following: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:31:28 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion? Or is it just a matter of measuring between the plates and getting one to fit there? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this? I know there was a link to this, can someone repeat that to me? I'd like to see it again in hopes that there were some sort of test results like I think I remember reading. I must have looked at the link on my phone and sort of lost my reference to it. Thanks. Now I'm wishing I had been more aggressive on the last Mantua Streamliner that went through eBay. The cars were in need of some repairs, but the engine was complete and looked to be mostly in need of a re-paint. One reason I backed off was the lame-looking Mantua power truck. I've never known one of those to run decently. Although its native quite fast speed would be a plus for that train. I have shells and car-sets to make up my own Mantua streamliner. Maybe I should just go primitive and make a HiFi belt drive for it? That would make the thing zip well enough for the class of passenger equipment it depicts........... a scale 200 mph-plus drive, if I keep the throttle in the mid-range. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22159	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

That's simple enough.  I probably would have done it that way rather than look for a compass. Thanks Vic...  Happy railroading... Grace and Peace...  Don in VA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 3/12/2014 2:49 PM, Victor Bitleris wrote:   I don't know, just align it to be the same as the old motor.  Set the new magnet on top of the old magnet and if it sticks, that should be the orientation.  The compass trick may or may not work, it depends on if the compass has been "re-magnetized"?  Technically the N pole of the magnet should cause the painted part (north) of the needle to attract.  If you get the S pole to close to the needle, it may change the compass orientation.  I would leave the compass out of this effort. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: chpln1@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:07:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   Which polarity attracts the North point of the compass needle, + or - ? I repaired one of my Mantua diesels with this type motor but it never was was a speed demon.  Don Staton in VA =================================================== On 3/12/2014 1:43 PM, Victor Bitleris wrote:   Yes, this is a very easy upgrade.  It uses a 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/2" block magnet.  Check out the following: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:31:28 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion? Or is it just a matter of measuring between the plates and getting one to fit there? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this? I know there was a link to this, can someone repeat that to me? I'd like to see it again in hopes that there were some sort of test results like I think I remember reading. I must have looked at the link on my phone and sort of lost my reference to it. Thanks. Now I'm wishing I had been more aggressive on the last Mantua Streamliner that went through eBay. The cars were in need of some repairs, but the engine was complete and looked to be mostly in need of a re-paint. One reason I backed off was the lame-looking Mantua power truck. I've never known one of those to run decently. Although its native quite fast speed would be a plus for that train. I have shells and car-sets to make up my own Mantua streamliner. Maybe I should just go primitive and make a HiFi belt drive for it? That would make the thing zip well enough for the class of passenger equipment it depicts........... a scale 200 mph-plus drive, if I keep the throttle in the mid-range. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22160	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

John, I was a repair man on the Tycos of late issue.  I don't like to even discuss them...  I seldom found any of them to be consistent for any length of time even after repair...  And the pancake motors burned out fairly quickly.  All I am discussing here are the sharks and the early Mantua and Tycos of the first ready to run vintage with the same metal motors and armature driving the axles directly.  I call those vintage. Happy railroading...  Grace and Peace... Don in VA ----------------------------------------------------- On 3/12/2014 3:03 PM, John Hagen wrote:   Okay guys,,   I musta missed something here about old Mantua diesel drives. My original, first generation Shark did anything but run too fast and my recently acquired two motor Shark of the same vintage barely moves fast enough albeit that is likely due to its having two motors.   And the very last Mantua diesel drive with the can motor and flywheel certainly runs very well at low speeds albeit I haven’t tried to see how fast it will run at full throttle as all I have at present is a three foot track for testing. No problem with full throttle on the two motor shark as it just does not move all that fast. I tested with two different throttles; a Spectrum Magnum Ultra Plus with 2.5 amps and an oldie but goodie Marn-O-Power with 2.5 amps. I do also have a second generation Mantua Shark with one motor that runs well enough but I did not try a full throttle run with it either. I will have to do that one of these days but as I recall my first, 1953 Shark was not a speedy piece either did then I’m trying to recall operations going back like fifty years.   That said I have had no experience with any Mantua diesel drives built between their very first and their very last nor any of the Tyco diesels built during the Tyco only days. The only problems I noticed with the early drives were the overly long wheelbase and the dang nab truck mounted couplers. The only problem with the last drive was the dang nab truck mounted couplers.   The long wheel base was addressed with Mantua’s last two diesel drives which includes their first can motored drive w/o the flywheel and, of course the flywheel equipped version of the same drive. These drives both had proper wheelbase and some nice Blomberg sideframes. Unfortunately they never did any with AAR “B: sideframes so I will have to adapt some from a different make for my repowered Shark.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.     Yes, this is a very easy upgrade.  It uses a 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/2" block magnet.  Check out the following: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:31:28 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion? Or is it just a matter of measuring between the plates and getting one to fit there? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this? I know there was a link to this, can someone repeat that to me? I'd like to see it again in hopes that there were some sort of test results like I think I remember reading. I must have looked at the link on my phone and sort of lost my reference to it. Thanks. Now I'm wishing I had been more aggressive on the last Mantua Streamliner that went through eBay. The cars were in need of some repairs, but the engine was complete and looked to be mostly in need of a re-paint. One reason I backed off was the lame-looking Mantua power truck. I've never known one of those to run decently. Although its native quite fast speed would be a plus for that train. I have shells and car-sets to make up my own Mantua streamliner. Maybe I should just go primitive and make a HiFi belt drive for it? That would make the thing zip well enough for the class of passenger equipment it depicts........... a scale 200 mph-plus drive, if I keep the throttle in the mid-range. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22161	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

Just an FYI, there really is no PLUS and MINUS when it comes to magnetics.  There is a North and South.  There are some folks who do "magneto therapy?" or some such and call it Plus and Minus for some reason and usually the Plus pole is the South end of a magnet.  But, that is questionable.    BTW, I was wrong about the compass, the N point of the compass will point to the South pole of the magnet.  Which is why a Compass points to the Geographic North, because the North Pole of the Earth is also the South pole of the magnetic field.  Weird huh? Having said, that I may wish to re-iterate that the old Mantua MU-2 motor truck is actually quite good.  I have 4 engines with 5 motors.  One of which is a dual motored A unit.  All of these run about the same as when they were new.  How do I know?  Heh heh, when I was about 10 or 12 years old way back around 1960, I had an A and a B unit both powered and from what I recall, they ran the same as the ones I own now.   I also plan on experimenting to see if the new magnets really help much.  I expect some performance increase, but like I said these are really pretty good to start with. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: chpln1@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 15:47:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   That's simple enough.  I probably would have done it that way rather than look for a compass. Thanks Vic...  Happy railroading... Grace and Peace...  Don in VA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 3/12/2014 2:49 PM, Victor Bitleris wrote:   I don't know, just align it to be the same as the old motor.  Set the new magnet on top of the old magnet and if it sticks, that should be the orientation.  The compass trick may or may not work, it depends on if the compass has been "re-magnetized"?  Technically the N pole of the magnet should cause the painted part (north) of the needle to attract.  If you get the S pole to close to the needle, it may change the compass orientation.  I would leave the compass out of this effort. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: chpln1@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 14:07:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   Which polarity attracts the North point of the compass needle, + or - ? I repaired one of my Mantua diesels with this type motor but it never was was a speed demon.  Don Staton in VA =================================================== On 3/12/2014 1:43 PM, Victor Bitleris wrote:   Yes, this is a very easy upgrade.  It uses a 1/2" by 1/2" by 1/2" block magnet.  Check out the following: http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:31:28 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.   I noticed some mention of replacing and improving the old Tyco/Mantua diesel/trolley drive truck with a modern rare earth magnet. Can someone tell me what size magnet worked for this conversion? Or is it just a matter of measuring between the plates and getting one to fit there? Perhaps I'm over-thinking this? I know there was a link to this, can someone repeat that to me? I'd like to see it again in hopes that there were some sort of test results like I think I remember reading. I must have looked at the link on my phone and sort of lost my reference to it. Thanks. Now I'm wishing I had been more aggressive on the last Mantua Streamliner that went through eBay. The cars were in need of some repairs, but the engine was complete and looked to be mostly in need of a re-paint. One reason I backed off was the lame-looking Mantua power truck. I've never known one of those to run decently. Although its native quite fast speed would be a plus for that train. I have shells and car-sets to make up my own Mantua streamliner. Maybe I should just go primitive and make a HiFi belt drive for it? That would make the thing zip well enough for the class of passenger equipment it depicts........... a scale 200 mph-plus drive, if I keep the throttle in the mid-range. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22162	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Remagnetizing Motors

Got a good giggle out of that - thanks - RogerW From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...> To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageho@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, 12 March 2014, 13:09 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors   I totally agree. :o) Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC Neo is the way to go.. (With the exception of yahoo.) -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22163	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

Vic, Don and group,   Vic I’d certainly be interested in your (hopeful) success with magnet replacement. Please keep us informed.   I remember that my first Shark, albeit a nice runner and all paled in comparison to my brothers Varney “Brute” F3. Now when I did the test of my new 60 year old two motored Shark I compared tractive effort by the very unscientific method of holding the loco back while applying enough power to spin the wheels. The two motor Shark did pretty good in that test.   Don, I learned the hard way about the Tyco diesels. Having been out of the hobby, other than buying the occasional magazine, I went looking for a train set for my son at age 5 or so as a Christmas present. This would have been in 1974 or there a bouts. Thinking that Tyco was still producing the old Mantua stuff just as it was when the Mantua name was dropped I got him a Tyco set with an F7 loco (Santa Fe of course as probably 75% of the rtr sets were). Well after having it up and running for maybe three – four months it started losing power accompanied by a loud screeching noise. Only then did flip it over and was Tyco’s crappy, open spur gear drive. Wish I’d looked before buying but I think I brought it from a department store instead of a LHS. Money was tight and, well, you know ….. It was then that I took a better look at what was currently available and discovered that Tyco had been systematically cheapening the heck out of their stuff. Tyco, which was once named for john Tyler had become very much a contraction of Toy Company.   When I look at some of garbage Tyco was producing before Tyler re-purchased the line it truly saddened me. Steam switchers with one piece main and side rods like the cheapest Marx sets and all. Yes Mantua’s rebirth produced some weird enough pieces, such as their Alco 0-8-0 using their switcher drivers in a frame with the same wheel base as the Mikado, added on four wheel trailing trucks that LOOKED added on and a 2-10-0 with the rear drivers in the firebox BUT, they still appeared railroad enough and they were mechanically sound. They would run and run well and, really, for the dollar weren’t a bad buy for those who weren’t into highly detailed stuff. And they also started the 2-6-6-2’s and their Atlantic’s which, while still compromised in some ways, were really nice models. That idler gearbox they added made for a much improved drive for the steamers. Then they started adding Sagami motors which were switched to the current can motors along with flywheels. Certainly a huge step up from the latter days of Tyco.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 3:25 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Mantua diesel motors question.     Just an FYI, there really is no PLUS and MINUS when it comes to magnetics.  There is a North and South.  There are some folks who do "magneto therapy?" or some such and call it Plus and Minus for some reason and usually the Plus pole is the South end of a magnet.  But, that is questionable.    BTW, I was wrong about the compass, the N point of the compass will point to the South pole of the magnet.  Which is why a Compass points to the Geographic North, because the North Pole of the Earth is also the South pole of the magnetic field.  Weird huh?   Having said, that I may wish to re-iterate that the old Mantua MU-2 motor truck is actually quite good.  I have 4 engines with 5 motors.  One of which is a dual motored A unit.  All of these run about the same as when they were new.  How do I know?  Heh heh, when I was about 10 or 12 years old way back around 1960, I had an A and a B unit both powered and from what I recall, they ran the same as the ones I own now.     I also plan on experimenting to see if the new magnets really help much.  I expect some performance increase, but like I said these are really pretty good to start with. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22164	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/12/2014
Subject: Re: Old Bowser Challenger.

Attachments : What a generous offer, John. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:59 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger.     I'll give you an extra $5.00 for that too. Such a great deal how could you possibly refuse? John Hagen -----Original Message----- From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:18 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old Bowser Challenger. But then what would I do with that hard to find Cal-Scale super detail set I found for it??? You know the one that goes with that two installment MR article of ages ago. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Mar 11, 2014, at 3:55 AM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote: > > > Well, gee Mike. > > But I'll still offer $25.00 to take that old stuff off your hands. > > John Hagen > >> From: Mike Bauers >> >> I stuttered..... >> >> It's the old 4-6-6-4 ....... ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22165	From: greenbrier614	Date: 3/13/2014
Subject: Re: Mantua diesel motors question.

John, Mantua's final versions of their Geep 20 and F-unit had Mehano trucks & gearing with a Mabuchi motor. Model Power currently carries the GP20 (but has reportedly eliminated some weight and the flywheel), while Walthers produces a much nicer upgraded version in their GP9 without those dang talgo couplers. Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <sprinthag@...> wrote : The long wheel base was addressed with Mantua’s last two diesel drives which includes their first can motored drive w/o the flywheel and, of course the flywheel equipped version of the same drive. These drives both had proper wheelbase and some nice Blomberg sideframes. Unfortunately they never did any with AAR “B: sideframes so I will have to adapt some from a different make for my repowered Shark.   John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22166	From: VtHam	Date: 3/13/2014
Subject: Re: Paint Code Needed For a Green Varney Southern Rwy 2-8-0

Jake and Vic, Your replies were much appreciated. I found some old Polly-S dark and light greens which I will attempt to mix together that will hopefully give me the matching shade for the tender. If it doesn't work I will try Americana paints first because of the attractive pricing and keep Model Master paint as a backup. At the end of April I will be going out to Denver to visit with my youngest son and his family. While out there, I always make a point to go to Caboose Hobbies. They have a very good assortment of paints as well as everything else to make ones mouth drool. I might even find a Southern decal set there that I will need. By the way, you might be interested to know that I have re-motored this old Varney engine. I recently got very lucky and found a small Sagami 1330 motor on eBay that fits this engine perfectly. By doing this, I was able to eliminate the, annoying growl that it had with it's old open frame motor. As a side benefit, it will now be possible to add DCC. Richard in Vermont  This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22167	From: Mike Christian	Date: 3/14/2014
Subject: Another URRO (Unidentified RR Object)

Attachments : Underside.jpg Top_End.JPG Top-22167.JPG Ruler.jpg I have been organizing and sorting through my train stuff and came upon a freight car or express reefer car floor that I cannot identify. I wasn’t sure of the protocol here as far as attaching photos to messages, so I have attached them as well as uploaded them to the Vintage HO site in the URRO folder in the FILES section.   The floor measures 53 scale feet long, and one end has an embossed square with the number 4050 in the square. The underside has a fish belly center sill, and the triple valve/reservoir/ cylinder are all molded in shallow relief in the underside of the floor.   At first blush I thought the floor looked like an express reefer, but I have Athearn and MDC/Roundhouse express reefers and they are closer to 50’ than 53’ and have standalone brake gear.   Any ideas?   Thanx,   Mike

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22168	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Central Lines car

I just acquired some Central Lines kits. I was most after the Wagner Sleeper car with its elaborate cast panels. The car sides are made with a process I'm not familiar with, the outside is very well detailed and the inside wall is sort of sunken in due to the process it was made with. Does anyone know something of the method used to make these passenger car sides? Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22169	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/15/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car

I believe that the sides are copper and  I think that they were stamped.  They were very well done, but very delicate.  Hence the subsequent change to plastic.  I had a whole set of these once, but sold them when I changed eras. John B. Allyn From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 10:15:01 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Central Lines car   I just acquired some Central Lines kits. I was most after the Wagner Sleeper car with its elaborate cast panels. The car sides are made with a process I'm not familiar with, the outside is very well detailed and the inside wall is sort of sunken in due to the process it was made with. Does anyone know something of the method used to make these passenger car sides? Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22170	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 3/16/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car

Mike     What material was used for the sides?            Fred Holladay   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:15:01 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Central Lines car   I just acquired some Central Lines kits. I was most after the Wagner Sleeper car with its elaborate cast panels. The car sides are made with a process I'm not familiar with, the outside is very well detailed and the inside wall is sort of sunken in due to the process it was made with. Does anyone know something of the method used to make these passenger car sides? Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22171	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/16/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car

It has the feel of a sort of vinyl, about 0.040-0.060 thick. The detail side is very crisp. The door window openings are very cleanly cut with square edges from front to back side. Window sill and framing detail are very well done. On the back, the spaces between the window frames sort of sink in while the window frame area sinks less. After all of these years the body panel material shows no sign of warping or sagging. While it's an odd material and unusual process, the stability of the body panels show it to be an excellent choice. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:           Mike     What material was used for the sides?            Fred Holladay   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:15:01 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Central Lines car   I just acquired some Central Lines kits. I was most after the Wagner Sleeper car with its elaborate cast panels. The car sides are made with a process I'm not familiar with, the outside is very well detailed and the inside wall is sort of sunken in due to the process it was made with. Does anyone know something of the method used to make these passenger car sides? Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22172	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/16/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car

I have the car in my collection also. It is built and painted in plain gray with black roof. I was thinking of giving it a colorful paint scheme by spraying the car body a solid color and then spraying a second contrasting color over top. Then taking wet sand paper and lightly sanding the higher embossed fancy scroll work area to remove that layer of paint. that would allow the two colors to show. Problem is, which two colors to choose? Was this car based on a real car? Possible color combos I was thinking of were orange/green, red,yellow or mahogany/black. Gary ---------- Sent from my not so smart Verizon Wireless mobile semi smart phone. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Bauers Sent: 3/16/2014 1:29:42 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Lines car It has the feel of a sort of vinyl, about 0.040-0.060 thick. The detail side is very crisp. The door window openings are very cleanly cut with square edges from front to back side. Window sill and framing detail are very well done. On the back, the spaces between the window frames sort of sink in while the window frame area sinks less. After all of these years the body panel material shows no sign of warping or sagging. While it's an odd material and unusual process, the stability of the body panels show it to be an excellent choice. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:           Mike     What material was used for the sides?            Fred Holladay   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:15:01 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Central Lines car   I just acquired some Central Lines kits. I was most after the Wagner Sleeper car with its elaborate cast panels. The car sides are made with a process I'm not familiar with, the outside is very well detailed and the inside wall is sort of sunken in due to the process it was made with. Does anyone know something of the method used to make these passenger car sides? Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22173	From: prandn	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: FS - Logging & Other Items - Priced Reduced

Keystone Locomotive Works: #101, Portable Horizontal Boiler $15 Alexander Scale Models: CL-100, Log Buggy $8.50 Kadee Line: L-103 Truss Log Car $20 Kadee Line: #104 Industrial Caboose $12.00 Kadee Line: #104 Industrial Caboose $12.00 Logger’s Lexicon, by John T. Labbe, Like New HB $65 + postage Brass unpainted Red Ball / Howell Day HO Rail Truck w/Trailer $110   Misc. Woodland Scenic's:  I have quite a few of the D series kits.  A few M series & 3 or 4 TS series. If you are looking for these items, please contact me off list.    I have quite a few of the A series:  people / animals sets. If you are looking for a certain Item please ask – I may have it.     Pacific Fast Mail:   PFM – LTM, Locomotive \ Tender Module, NIB:  $30.00  ( To equip one Steam Locomotive for Sound & Constant Intensity Lighting )   All items are + postage from 97006.   Payment by PayPal ( split Paypal ) or USPS Money Order ( Next business day shipping ) or Bank Check ( 5 business day hold ) before shipping. Pictures available on request. Please contact me off list. As always, I will entertain any to offers. Loren Martell Beaverton, OR 97006 503-810-9018

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22174	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car

It's the later plastic version.  Still a good kit.  John B. Allyn From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 8:29:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Lines car   It has the feel of a sort of vinyl, about 0.040-0.060 thick. The detail side is very crisp. The door window openings are very cleanly cut with square edges from front to back side. Window sill and framing detail are very well done. On the back, the spaces between the window frames sort of sink in while the window frame area sinks less. After all of these years the body panel material shows no sign of warping or sagging. While it's an odd material and unusual process, the stability of the body panels show it to be an excellent choice. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:           Mike     What material was used for the sides?            Fred Holladay   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:15:01 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Central Lines car   I just acquired some Central Lines kits. I was most after the Wagner Sleeper car with its elaborate cast panels. The car sides are made with a process I'm not familiar with, the outside is very well detailed and the inside wall is sort of sunken in due to the process it was made with. Does anyone know something of the method used to make these passenger car sides? Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22175	From: dwaite2000	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Ambroid Baggage Car

Good Day, Years agao the first adverts for the Ambroid B&M Wooden Baggage Car showed a picture of an 8 door car (4 per side). All of the kits I've ever seen (and I have some pretty early ones) have 6 doors (3 per side). Has anyone ever seen an 8 door version or know if they actually made one? Thanks, Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22176	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Ambroid Baggage Car

Hi Dick, I have one of the kits that show 6 doors.  However, in the instructions included with the kit, it says; "The prototype of this turn of the century baggage car has three doors per side.  However, cars were built with two and four doors.  One two door version has one single width and one double width door per side.  Use two regular doors meeting in the center of the opening for this version." So, it seems that with the later kits, you have your choice as to how many doors you want.  Personally I think just two doors per side is enough, although I may make it with 6? Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: acace@... Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 12:14:30 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Ambroid Baggage Car   Good Day, Years agao the first adverts for the Ambroid B&M Wooden Baggage Car showed a picture of an 8 door car (4 per side). All of the kits I've ever seen (and I have some pretty early ones) have 6 doors (3 per side). Has anyone ever seen an 8 door version or know if they actually made one? Thanks, Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22177	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Ambroid Baggage Car

Hi Dick, Someone on the B&M or the Boston & Maine sites may know more about the 8 door cars. Joel Holmes > > Good Day, > > Years agao the first adverts for the Ambroid B&M Wooden Baggage Car > showed a picture of an 8 door car (4 per side). > All of the kits I've ever seen (and I have some pretty early ones) have 6 > doors (3 per side). Has anyone ever seen an 8 door version > or know if they actually made one? > > Thanks, > > Dick Waite > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22178	From: Steven D Johnson	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Bronco HO scale ACF Center Flow

Gents,   This may not exactly be “vintage,” but I’ve never heard of the “Bronco” brand before:    http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-GAUGE-BRONCO-DUPONT-CENTER-FLOW-HOPPER-IN-ORIGINAL-BOX-/351024180216?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item51baabebf8   From the trucks, this appears to be identical to the Bachmann/AHM Center Flow models.  AHM offered the same paint scheme and road number:   http://www.ho-scaletrains.net/ahmhoscalefreightcars/id63.html   Anyone know more about this brand?   Thanks,   Steve Johnson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22179	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/17/2014
Subject: Re: Bronco HO scale ACF Center Flow

Hi Steve J., I believe "Bronco" is another trade name used by the toy and hobby importer, the Fred Bronner Company. Bronner was best known for having the exclusive US rights on Matchbox toys from the 50s into the 70s and 80s, but also carried many other lines, some under his own name to supply hobby stores throughout the US. I believe we may have even discussed it here about 4 years ago. Can anyone else help? Possibly Reed E.? W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22180	From: jackdziadul	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Ambroid Baggage Car

There is a list of Ambroid kits in the file section. Jack Dziadul Sanford, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22181	From: Richard White	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Central Lines car

I'm currently constructing an Exacta 1898 coach, with the photo-engraved copper sides/ends. It's an interesting kit. I will use some Walthers roof end beads that I have "in stock" to properly do the roof. I also have some proper "oldie" 7-ft. wheelbase 4-wheel passenger trucks for the car. I plan to detail the underbody beyond the truss rods. There were no brake parts in the kit, and the instructions don't show any air tanks, etc. Regards- Richard White   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2014 08:46:38 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Lines car   It's the later plastic version.  Still a good kit.  John B. Allyn From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 8:29:42 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Central Lines car   It has the feel of a sort of vinyl, about 0.040-0.060 thick. The detail side is very crisp. The door window openings are very cleanly cut with square edges from front to back side. Window sill and framing detail are very well done. On the back, the spaces between the window frames sort of sink in while the window frame area sinks less. After all of these years the body panel material shows no sign of warping or sagging. While it's an odd material and unusual process, the stability of the body panels show it to be an excellent choice. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:           Mike     What material was used for the sides?            Fred Holladay   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2014 22:15:01 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Central Lines car   I just acquired some Central Lines kits. I was most after the Wagner Sleeper car with its elaborate cast panels. The car sides are made with a process I'm not familiar with, the outside is very well detailed and the inside wall is sort of sunken in due to the process it was made with. Does anyone know something of the method used to make these passenger car sides? Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22182	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: [BM_RR] [Fwd: [vintageHO] Ambroid Baggage Car]

Hi All, There was a question on this group as to the 4 door Ambroid Baggage cars. Here is the reply I received this morning. Hope this helps. Joel Holmes > Joel, I don't have any photos but per the B&M 1923 Passenger Car Class > Book notes that I have from Roger Hinman, there were two 4 doors per side, > wooden cars. B&M 2644 was built pre-1880, builder unknown; it was an open > platform baggage car with 4 baggage doors (3' - 6") per side, a wooden > underframe, and body 51'- 2" in length with an overall length of 58' - 0", > weight 47,200 lbs, and no record of disposition. Length wise it is not a > good match for an Ambroid car. > > However, there was also B&M 2775, built in local B&M shops in 1889. It > was an open platform baggage car with 4 baggage doors(3' - 5") per side, > a wooden underframe and body 60' - 8" in length with an overall car > length of 67" - 6", weight 61,000 lbs, and no record of disposition. > Since there's no photo, I can't determine if an Ambroid car is a good > match other than to say the car length is more in line with this model. > > > Tom E Thompson >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22184	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

On 19/03/14 17:48, dnhelber@... wrote: > But it leads me to ask: whatever happened to the little brother of > Small's arc welder, the Resistance Soldering Outfit? It was always on > the horizon and poised to replace conventional soldering when the > price came down a bit, but it never seemed to arrive. Does Resistance > Soldering not work well sticking little bits of brass on big chunks > of Zamac, or white metal, or whatever it's called these days? We had quite a big discussion recently on this topic on one of the other groups that I belong to - I think it was the Train Tools group - why don't you sign up with them and check their archives?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22185	From: david_helber	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Thanks for the answer, Doug. I'm not sure how I can see your reply, but can't see my post itself. Just in case it has disappeared for other readers, I'm posting it again, and hoping the Yahoo gods smile on me this time. Sorry to those who get this as a duplicate. My original post was - ===================================== As a guy who has been asleep at the Marn-o-stat for the last 30 years of model train evolution, I can't help but be reminded of an article  in the July 1964 Model Railroader by one of the most enjoyable writers of the Westcott era, Charles S. Small.  It was called  Superdetailed Rebuilding, or: How to Make a 4-4-0 Out of a 4-8-8-4 and Have a Few Parts Left Over.  Well, that's what it was called in the Table of Contents; somehow the subtitle didn't make it to the article proper. Small says:  Most superdetailing articles are full of instructions about how and where to drill No. 63 holes and tap the  00-90. I have found, from long experience, that this technique is a losing game:  the tap always breaks off in the hole, so you have to buy another 4-8-8-4 and start all over again.  For $397.89 you can buy an arc welder - and this gadget really sticks parts together.  Three broken taps plus the need to buy three more 4-8-8-4's will pay for the welder. There's plenty more in that vein. I recommend the article, if you could use a smile or two in a vintage frame of mind. But it leads me to ask: whatever happened to the little brother of Small's arc welder, the Resistance Soldering outfit? It was always on the horizon and poised to replace conventional soldering when the price came down a bit, but it never seemed to arrive. Does Resistance Soldering not work well sticking little bits of brass on big chunks of Zamac, or white metal, or whatever it's called these days? -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22186	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

D,   I recall that article and now that you’ve mentioned it I will  have to reread it as I always considered it to be one of the best pieces on detailing I’ve read. There are those who seem to feel it to be full of BS and toss it off as entertainment but I have thought it a well written, factual article that I have tried to emulate in my modeling as much as possible.   Maybe that explains a lot that I have had happen over the last 60 years.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dnhelber@... Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 12:53 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux     Thanks for the answer, Doug. I'm not sure how I can see your reply, but can't see my post itself. Just in case it has disappeared for other readers, I'm posting it again, and hoping the Yahoo gods smile on me this time. Sorry to those who get this as a duplicate. My original post was - ===================================== As a guy who has been asleep at the Marn-o-stat for the last 30 years of model train evolution, I can't help but be reminded of an article  in the July 1964 Model Railroader by one of the most enjoyable writers of the Westcott era, Charles S. Small.  It was called  Superdetailed Rebuilding, or: How to Make a 4-4-0 Out of a 4-8-8-4 and Have a Few Parts Left Over.  Well, that's what it was called in the Table of Contents; somehow the subtitle didn't make it to the article proper. Small says:    Most superdetailing articles are full of instructions about how and where to drill No. 63 holes and tap the  00-90. I have found, from long experience, that this technique is a losing game:  the tap always breaks off in the hole, so you have to buy another 4-8-8-4 and start all over again.  For $397.89 you can buy an arc welder - and this gadget really sticks parts together.  Three broken taps plus the need to buy three more 4-8-8-4's will pay for the welder.   There's plenty more in that vein. I recommend the article, if you could use a smile or two in a vintage frame of mind.   But it leads me to ask: whatever happened to the little brother of Small's arc welder, the Resistance Soldering outfit? It was always on the horizon and poised to replace conventional soldering when the price came down a bit, but it never seemed to arrive. Does Resistance Soldering not work well sticking little bits of brass on big chunks of Zamac, or white metal, or whatever it's called these days?   -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22187	From: garyp552002	Date: 3/18/2014
Subject: Circa 1980 Bachmann HO Combine

I recently obtained a circa 1980 Bachmann HO combine. Along the bottom sill, mid car, there is a spring loaded tab about 1 inch long. What is this for and what does it do?? I would appreciate any help! Gary Pardue

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22188	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

On 19/03/14 18:52, dnhelber@... wrote: > Thanks for the answer, Doug. I'm not sure how I can see your reply, > but can't see my post itself. Just in case it has disappeared for > other readers, I'm posting it again, and hoping the Yahoo gods smile > on me this time. Sorry to those who get this as a duplicate. My > original post was - ===================================== As a guy > who has been asleep at the Marn-o-stat Sorry, I have to ask - what's a Marn-o-stat?? In all my 75 years, I don't think I've heard the name.. :-))>■ ° ≈ (Grinning bearded man > with a titanium hip joint and Fat Finger Disease) Apart from that, I'm very fine, thanks.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22189	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Circa 1980 Bachmann HO Combine

Hi Gary,   While I regret to say that I can't give you an answer to your Bachmann question (although I wish I could), I'd just like to say that while an occasional question this late in H0 model production would not seem to be too inappropriate, I would see more frequent discussions on circa 1980 equipment to be off-topic.  I realize that Don recently revised the time frame of just what "vintage" includes, bringing things up a bit in years more recent, my opinion is that this is really too new to be considered vintage, but this is only one member's take on how new we should go in encompassing vintage.  I really wouldn't want to see very many 1980 models discussions taken here if I were to be asked, and if they are, I'd recommend at least including "O/T" (off-topic) in the subject line to alert all of us.  I do hope someone here can answer your question though; it's as good one for that era.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/19/2014 1:56:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, garyp552002@... writes:   I recently obtained a circa 1980 Bachmann HO combine. Along the bottom sill, mid car, there is a spring loaded tab about 1 inch long. What is this for and what does it do?? I would appreciate any help! Gary Pardue

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22190	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Hi Doug,   A "Marn-O-Stat" (Marn-O-Power) is a power pack manufacturered and offered by Walthers as their "Marnold" power conversion/controllers starting in the mid-1960's and continuing into the 1980's.  Originally, Walthers offered them in four models -- two single-throttle versions and two double throttle versions.  So, apparently what's being meant here by "asleep at the Marn-O-Stat" means asleep at the throttle < g > (or throttleS, depending on which version we're talking about < G >).).   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 3/19/2014 2:49:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, digbee@... writes:   On 19/03/14 18:52, dnhelber@... wrote: > Thanks for the answer, Doug. I'm not sure how I can see your reply, > but can't see my post itself. Just in case it has disappeared for > other readers, I'm posting it again, and hoping the Yahoo gods smile > on me this time. Sorry to those who get this as a duplicate. My > original post was - ===================================== As a guy > who has been asleep at the Marn-o-stat Sorry, I have to ask - what's a Marn-o-stat?? In all my 75 years, I don't think I've heard the name.. :-))>■ ° ≈ (Grinning bearded man > with a titanium hip joint and Fat Finger Disease) Apart from that, I'm very fine, thanks.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22191	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

And if I remember correctly, it was the Cadillac of control systems at the time. John B. Allyn From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 6:29:18 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux   Hi Doug,   A "Marn-O-Stat" (Marn-O-Power) is a power pack manufacturered and offered by Walthers as their "Marnold" power conversion/controllers starting in the mid-1960's and continuing into the 1980's.  Originally, Walthers offered them in four models -- two single-throttle versions and two double throttle versions.  So, apparently what's being meant here by "asleep at the Marn-O-Stat" means asleep at the throttle < g > (or throttleS, depending on which version we're talking about < G >).).   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 3/19/2014 2:49:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, digbee@... writes:   On 19/03/14 18:52, dnhelber@... wrote: > Thanks for the answer, Doug. I'm not sure how I can see your reply, > but can't see my post itself. Just in case it has disappeared for > other readers, I'm posting it again, and hoping the Yahoo gods smile > on me this time. Sorry to those who get this as a duplicate. My > original post was - ===================================== As a guy > who has been asleep at the Marn-o-stat Sorry, I have to ask - what's a Marn-o-stat?? In all my 75 years, I don't think I've heard the name.. :-))>■ ° ≈ (Grinning bearded man > with a titanium hip joint and Fat Finger Disease) Apart from that, I'm very fine, thanks.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22192	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)

Probably into the 80’s but they were around in the late 40’s. We had a couple of them. Way back when I was but a mere lad, before we moved from Appleton to Green Bay which was in September, 1950.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 6:29 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux     Hi Doug,   A "Marn-O-Stat" (Marn-O-Power) is a power pack manufacturered and offered by Walthers as their "Marnold" power conversion/controllers starting in the mid-1960's and continuing into the 1980's.  Originally, Walthers offered them in four models -- two single-throttle versions and two double throttle versions.  So, apparently what's being meant here by "asleep at the Marn-O-Stat" means asleep at the throttle < g > (or throttleS, depending on which version we're talking about < G >).).   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22193	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)

More like the Rolls Royce. Very rugged and built to handle the high draw motors of the day. We got our first one when Dad was playing around with O scale. It ran his General Models NW2 okay, albeit it could be marginal for some O scale at the time as it put out 2.5 amps. When we switched to HO he got a separate throttle that received power from the main pack. With  that we were able to run two cab control and operate a Varney F3 A&B “Brute” (DC70 motors) and my DC71 powered and Mantua Mike. I don’t recall what the eventual disposition of them was but my brother had them well into the 80’s.   I recently picked one up off eBay and it works perfect. The only problem is the rheostat leaks enough juice that some modern motors will come to a complete stop.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john.allyn@... Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 8:21 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux     And if I remember correctly, it was the Cadillac of control systems at the time. John B. Allyn   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (25) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22194	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)

Yeah, okay, I am too old a fogey to use modern communication devices. Hat last sentence should read, “The only problem is the rheostat leaks enough juice that some modern motors will NOT come to a complete stop”.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)     More like the Rolls Royce. Very rugged and built to handle the high draw motors of the day. We got our first one when Dad was playing around with O scale. It ran his General Models NW2 okay, albeit it could be marginal for some O scale at the time as it put out 2.5 amps. When we switched to HO he got a separate throttle that received power from the main pack. With  that we were able to run two cab control and operate a Varney F3 A&B “Brute” (DC70 motors) and my DC71 powered and Mantua Mike. I don’t recall what the eventual disposition of them was but my brother had them well into the 80’s.   I recently picked one up off eBay and it works perfect. The only problem is the rheostat leaks enough juice that some modern motors will come to a complete stop.   John Hagen Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (25) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22195	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-stat

Not the power packs, but just the Marn-O-Stat throttles, there's three of them controlling my layout today. For the modern motors, you need to have the load compensator switch. Don On 3/19/2014 9:43 AM, John Hagen wrote: More like the Rolls Royce. Very rugged and built to handle the high draw motors of the day. We got our first one when Dad was playing around with O scale. It ran his General Models NW2 okay, albeit it could be marginal for some O scale at the time as it put out 2.5 amps. When we switched to HO he got a separate throttle that received power from the main pack. With  that we were able to run two cab control and operate a Varney F3 A&B “Brute” (DC70 motors) and my DC71 powered and Mantua Mike. I don’t recall what the eventual disposition of them was but my brother had them well into the 80’s.   I recently picked one up off eBay and it works perfect. The only problem is the rheostat leaks enough juice that some modern motors will come to a complete stop.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john.allyn@... Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 8:21 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux     And if I remember correctly, it was the Cadillac of control systems at the time. John B. Allyn   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (25) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22196	From: david_helber	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Who Made These '50s Buildings?

Can anybody identify these great '50s-era printed heavy-cardboard HO buildings? RR and Industrial  Farm Buildings Houses Business I itch to bid on these. I love structures, but they take up so much volume, I have to be fairly ruthless with myself about acquiring them. I have no permanent layout, so they'd sit eating up great globs of space in storage boxes until the time came to use them on a temporary setup.  I guess downloading the supersized photos will have to do.  But -- with those lovely photos and the sizes given in the description, it shouldn't be too hard to recreate the graphics for a couple of them on the computer and build them so they'd break or fold down for storage. Or maybe just do one wall each as background flats. I'd love to have seen the original owner's layout in its prime. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22197	From: david_helber	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?

Ratz! Yahoo doesn't like the URLs for the listings I got to by clicking on the seller's other items display. Let's try this URL for the FARM buildings. I can't see any way to test it before posting it. Sorry. - D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22198	From: david_helber	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?

Hooray! Success. So these should work for the HOUSES and BUSINESS STRUCTURES.  If not, I'll do another go-round.  (Dang. Yahoo is just about the clunkiest forum software I know. And it seems even worse since the big remodel. Certainly the Photos area is much harder to use. Can't these people see that utility is more important than style?)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22199	From: trainliker	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

I had seen some issues of "Model Trains" before, and recently bought a couple.   I wondered if anyone on this group knows for how long it was published.   I am looking at a january 1959 issue and it seems clearly more oriented to the beginner and younger crowd than its big brother, Model Railroader.   Linn Westcott penned some of the columns and articles.  It was published 6 times a year.   The cover banner says:   MODEL RAILROADING MADE EASY MODEL TRAINS (which is printed huge) ALL AGES - ALL GAUGES:  HO - S - O - O27   It's actually pretty darn good vintage reading.  One issue I got has a nice Varney Berkshire review including any of their assembly difficulties.  Kit reviews include tools needed (the tools also shown in a photo with the kit) and estimated time to build.   It might have been a real nice thing if all these had been included with the MR 75 years DVD as a bonus feature.   Anyone know more about this magazine?   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22200	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO

For those who might be interested, I looked at my instruction sheet for the Northeastern (Ambroid) Combine and they show the door arrangement for the 6-door baggage car, but if you look at the combine drawing, it shows two baggage-doors per side in the baggage section which probably corresponds to the door spacing for the 8-door arrangement. Here is the link to the scan: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/1506116161 Matt Coleman <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <acace@...> wrote : Good Day, Years agao the first adverts for the Ambroid B&M Wooden Baggage Car showed a picture of an 8 door car (4 per side). All of the kits I've ever seen (and I have some pretty early ones) have 6 doors (3 per side). Has anyone ever seen an 8 door version or know if they actually made one? Thanks, Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22201	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

Model Trains began in the 1940's as HO Monthly and was acquired by Kalmbach in the early 1950's.  It always seemed to be sort of a shoestring operation with Linn Westcott and Willard Anderson (both Kalmbach supreme muckety-mucks at the time) doing the editorial work as a side to their regular duties.  It ceased publication as a bi monthly in 1962, probably a casualty of the slot car panic.  It had an annual issue for some years afterwards which essentially was a big ad for HO train sets.    My brother gave me a subscription to the magazine when I was 9 or 10 years old -- I think that he had to sell a certain number of magazine subscriptions for school -- and I was a devoted reader.  The product reviews by Linn Westcott were, as you noted, very detailed and aimed at the younger reader.  Willard Anderson wrote a column which included a lot of correspondence from younger modelers.  There were a lot of good structure building articles.  E. L Moore, Robert E. Gilbert, Joe Wilhelm were all contributors, and their works usually involved vast quantities of balsa wood which were within the budgets of paper boys and the like.    I picked up a bunch of back issues on E Bay a while back and enjoy reading them.  In a weak moment I also bought a vast quantity of 50 year old balsa and one of these days . . . John B. Allyn From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 1:34:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   I had seen some issues of "Model Trains" before, and recently bought a couple.   I wondered if anyone on this group knows for how long it was published.   I am looking at a january 1959 issue and it seems clearly more oriented to the beginner and younger crowd than its big brother, Model Railroader.   Linn Westcott penned some of the columns and articles.  It was published 6 times a year.   The cover banner says:   MODEL RAILROADING MADE EASY MODEL TRAINS (which is printed huge) ALL AGES - ALL GAUGES:  HO - S - O - O27   It's actually pretty darn good vintage reading.  One issue I got has a nice Varney Berkshire review including any of their assembly difficulties.  Kit reviews include tools needed (the tools also shown in a photo with the kit) and estimated time to build.   It might have been a real nice thing if all these had been included with the MR 75 years DVD as a bonus feature.   Anyone know more about this magazine?   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22202	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

Attachments : Chuck, You might be able to find it on www.railpub.com Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ckinzer@... Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 1:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach     I had seen some issues of "Model Trains" before, and recently bought a couple.   I wondered if anyone on this group knows for how long it was published.   I am looking at a january 1959 issue and it seems clearly more oriented to the beginner and younger crowd than its big brother, Model Railroader.   Linn Westcott penned some of the columns and articles.  It was published 6 times a year.   The cover banner says:   MODEL RAILROADING MADE EASY MODEL TRAINS (which is printed huge) ALL AGES - ALL GAUGES:  HO - S - O - O27   It's actually pretty darn good vintage reading.  One issue I got has a nice Varney Berkshire review including any of their assembly difficulties.  Kit reviews include tools needed (the tools also shown in a photo with the kit) and estimated time to build.   It might have been a real nice thing if all these had been included with the MR 75 years DVD as a bonus feature.   Anyone know more about this magazine?   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22203	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?

D - Most of the designs are something I'd like to have models of. I'll open a new thread on that aspect. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Mar 19, 2014, at 1:31 PM, <dnhelber@...> <dnhelber@...> wrote: > > > Hooray! Success. > So these should work for the HOUSES and BUSINESS STRUCTURES. > If not, I'll do another go-round. > (Dang. Yahoo is just about the clunkiest forum software I know. And it seems even worse since the big remodel. Certainly the Photos area is much harder to use. Can't these people see that utility is more important than style?)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22204	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: How to make......... Re: [vintageHO] Re: Who Made These '50s Buildin

I'd like to try my hand on these building with model software. 1] I prefer Mac software. Does anyone know of a good package to make up these buildings with a Mac? 2] I'm also a realist about computers. I can do this in Windows if I must. What Windows software would anyone suggest for making these buildings as models? 3] Strictly model oriented software is fine. But structured cad would be okay as well if it has the needed architectural parts library for it. Anyone have any favorite software for this sort of project that they could suggest? Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Mar 19, 2014, at 1:31 PM, <dnhelber@...> <dnhelber@...> wrote: > > > Hooray! Success. > So these should work for the HOUSES and BUSINESS STRUCTURES. > If not, I'll do another go-round. > (Dang. Yahoo is just about the clunkiest forum software I know. And it seems even worse since the big remodel. Certainly the Photos area is much harder to use. Can't these people see that utility is more important than style?)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22205	From: Carl Neste	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

The Model Railroader Special DVD contains selected stories from 'Model Trains'. Carl On 3/19/2014 1:55 PM, john.allyn@... wrote:   Model Trains began in the 1940's as HO Monthly and was acquired by Kalmbach in the early 1950's.  It always seemed to be sort of a shoestring operation with Linn Westcott and Willard Anderson (both Kalmbach supreme muckety-mucks at the time) doing the editorial work as a side to their regular duties.  It ceased publication as a bi monthly in 1962, probably a casualty of the slot car panic.  It had an annual issue for some years afterwards which essentially was a big ad for HO train sets.    My brother gave me a subscription to the magazine when I was 9 or 10 years old -- I think that he had to sell a certain number of magazine subscriptions for school -- and I was a devoted reader.  The product reviews by Linn Westcott were, as you noted, very detailed and aimed at the younger reader.  Willard Anderson wrote a column which included a lot of correspondence from younger modelers.  There were a lot of good structure building articles.  E. L Moore, Robert E. Gilbert, Joe Wilhelm were all contributors, and their works usually involved vast quantities of balsa wood which were within the budgets of paper boys and the like.    I picked up a bunch of back issues on E Bay a while back and enjoy reading them.  In a weak moment I also bought a vast quantity of 50 year old balsa and one of these days . . . John B. Allyn From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 1:34:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   I had seen some issues of "Model Trains" before, and recently bought a couple.   I wondered if anyone on this group knows for how long it was published.   I am looking at a january 1959 issue and it seems clearly more oriented to the beginner and younger crowd than its big brother, Model Railroader.   Linn Westcott penned some of the columns and articles.  It was published 6 times a year.   The cover banner says:   MODEL RAILROADING MADE EASY MODEL TRAINS (which is printed huge) ALL AGES - ALL GAUGES:  HO - S - O - O27   It's actually pretty darn good vintage reading.  One issue I got has a nice Varney Berkshire review including any of their assembly difficulties.  Kit reviews include tools needed (the tools also shown in a photo with the kit) and estimated time to build.   It might have been a real nice thing if all these had been included with the MR 75 years DVD as a bonus feature.   Anyone know more about this magazine?   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22206	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

I have a few issues.  There were some pretty good how-to articles by Linn Westcott on superdetailing Bowser, Mantua, and MDC cast locomotives.  These articles included how to remove cast on details and replace them with accurate piping and brass details from Cal Scale or Kemtron.  I also very much enjoyed the series of articles by Gil Reid on how he built the Ohio River and Wabash RR.  I always wanted to try to incorporate a lot of scenes from his ideas into my own layout.   I think this magazine was supposed to be a transition magazine for modelers starting out in the hobby, but it really had some advanced modeling articles.  I thought it was a bit less formal than Model Railroader.  I wish I could get more of the magazines, but I think my wife would be past her tipping point.  She feels I have way more magazines than I should.  I keep reminding her that I don't have all of the 1930's issues and need to fin in a few holes for the early 1940's issues.  :o)   She would like me to buy the Model Railroader DVD and get rid of my "hard copies", but I REALLY don't want to do that. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:55:39 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   Model Trains began in the 1940's as HO Monthly and was acquired by Kalmbach in the early 1950's.  It always seemed to be sort of a shoestring operation with Linn Westcott and Willard Anderson (both Kalmbach supreme muckety-mucks at the time) doing the editorial work as a side to their regular duties.  It ceased publication as a bi monthly in 1962, probably a casualty of the slot car panic.  It had an annual issue for some years afterwards which essentially was a big ad for HO train sets.    My brother gave me a subscription to the magazine when I was 9 or 10 years old -- I think that he had to sell a certain number of magazine subscriptions for school -- and I was a devoted reader.  The product reviews by Linn Westcott were, as you noted, very detailed and aimed at the younger reader.  Willard Anderson wrote a column which included a lot of correspondence from younger modelers.  There were a lot of good structure building articles.  E. L Moore, Robert E. Gilbert, Joe Wilhelm were all contributors, and their works usually involved vast quantities of balsa wood which were within the budgets of paper boys and the like.    I picked up a bunch of back issues on E Bay a while back and enjoy reading them.  In a weak moment I also bought a vast quantity of 50 year old balsa and one of these days . . . John B. Allyn From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 1:34:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   I had seen some issues of "Model Trains" before, and recently bought a couple.   I wondered if anyone on this group knows for how long it was published.   I am looking at a january 1959 issue and it seems clearly more oriented to the beginner and younger crowd than its big brother, Model Railroader.   Linn Westcott penned some of the columns and articles.  It was published 6 times a year.   The cover banner says:   MODEL RAILROADING MADE EASY MODEL TRAINS (which is printed huge) ALL AGES - ALL GAUGES:  HO - S - O - O27   It's actually pretty darn good vintage reading.  One issue I got has a nice Varney Berkshire review including any of their assembly difficulties.  Kit reviews include tools needed (the tools also shown in a photo with the kit) and estimated time to build.   It might have been a real nice thing if all these had been included with the MR 75 years DVD as a bonus feature.   Anyone know more about this magazine?   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22207	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?

Working from memory (so trying to do a job without the right tools) I think Ideal Model Company  the Tiny Town line.  I know Scalecraft did OO (1/76 scale) trains, and possibly made some paper building kits. Railroad Model craftsman used to print colored cut outs  on the inside back page, you'd cut them out, glue to shirt cardboard and assemble. I don't know how long they did it, it was late 50s to some tinme in the 1960s. Here's a link to a current e-bay auction for an ideal kit: < http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-SCALE-TRAINS-BUILDING-1-8-SCALE-IDEAL-TINY-TOWN-BUILDING-KIT-MODELS-NEW-YORK-/150846277907?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item231f238913 > Willard  At 02:22 PM 3/19/2014, you wrote: Ratz! Yahoo doesn't like the URLs for the listings I got to by clicking on the seller's other items display. Let's try this URL for the FARM buildings. I can't see any way to test it before posting it. Sorry. - D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22208	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

I subscribed to it. The issue that announced that they were ceasing publication arrived on my birthday (don't remember which one), but it was in the early 1960s. I built a lot of buildings from articles that appeared in it. I believe, but am not sure, that it grew out of an earlier magazine called HO monthly. Willard  At 02:34 PM 3/19/2014, you wrote: I had seen some issues of "Model Trains" before, and recently bought a couple.   I wondered if anyone on this group knows for how long it was published.   I am looking at a january 1959 issue and it seems clearly more oriented to the beginner and younger crowd than its big brother, Model Railroader.   Linn Westcott penned some of the columns and articles.  It was published 6 times a year.   The cover banner says:   MODEL RAILROADING MADE EASY MODEL TRAINS (which is printed huge) ALL AGES - ALL GAUGES:  HO - S - O - O27   It's actually pretty darn good vintage reading.  One issue I got has a nice Varney Berkshire review including any of their assembly difficulties.  Kit reviews include tools needed (the tools also shown in a photo with the kit) and estimated time to build.   It might have been a real nice thing if all these had been included with the MR 75 years DVD as a bonus feature.   Anyone know more about this magazine?   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22209	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

If we didn't have old model railroad magazines to read, what would we do between plays during football season? John B. Allyn From: "Victor Bitleris" <bitlerisvj@...> To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageho@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 3:06:56 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   I have a few issues.  There were some pretty good how-to articles by Linn Westcott on superdetailing Bowser, Mantua, and MDC cast locomotives.  These articles included how to remove cast on details and replace them with accurate piping and brass details from Cal Scale or Kemtron.  I also very much enjoyed the series of articles by Gil Reid on how he built the Ohio River and Wabash RR.  I always wanted to try to incorporate a lot of scenes from his ideas into my own layout.   I think this magazine was supposed to be a transition magazine for modelers starting out in the hobby, but it really had some advanced modeling articles.  I thought it was a bit less formal than Model Railroader.  I wish I could get more of the magazines, but I think my wife would be past her tipping point.  She feels I have way more magazines than I should.  I keep reminding her that I don't have all of the 1930's issues and need to fin in a few holes for the early 1940's issues.  :o)   She would like me to buy the Model Railroader DVD and get rid of my "hard copies", but I REALLY don't want to do that. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:55:39 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   Model Trains began in the 1940's as HO Monthly and was acquired by Kalmbach in the early 1950's.  It always seemed to be sort of a shoestring operation with Linn Westcott and Willard Anderson (both Kalmbach supreme muckety-mucks at the time) doing the editorial work as a side to their regular duties.  It ceased publication as a bi monthly in 1962, probably a casualty of the slot car panic.  It had an annual issue for some years afterwards which essentially was a big ad for HO train sets.    My brother gave me a subscription to the magazine when I was 9 or 10 years old -- I think that he had to sell a certain number of magazine subscriptions for school -- and I was a devoted reader.  The product reviews by Linn Westcott were, as you noted, very detailed and aimed at the younger reader.  Willard Anderson wrote a column which included a lot of correspondence from younger modelers.  There were a lot of good structure building articles.  E. L Moore, Robert E. Gilbert, Joe Wilhelm were all contributors, and their works usually involved vast quantities of balsa wood which were within the budgets of paper boys and the like.    I picked up a bunch of back issues on E Bay a while back and enjoy reading them.  In a weak moment I also bought a vast quantity of 50 year old balsa and one of these days . . . John B. Allyn From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 1:34:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   I had seen some issues of "Model Trains" before, and recently bought a couple.   I wondered if anyone on this group knows for how long it was published.   I am looking at a january 1959 issue and it seems clearly more oriented to the beginner and younger crowd than its big brother, Model Railroader.   Linn Westcott penned some of the columns and articles.  It was published 6 times a year.   The cover banner says:   MODEL RAILROADING MADE EASY MODEL TRAINS (which is printed huge) ALL AGES - ALL GAUGES:  HO - S - O - O27   It's actually pretty darn good vintage reading.  One issue I got has a nice Varney Berkshire review including any of their assembly difficulties.  Kit reviews include tools needed (the tools also shown in a photo with the kit) and estimated time to build.   It might have been a real nice thing if all these had been included with the MR 75 years DVD as a bonus feature.   Anyone know more about this magazine?   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22210	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?

Another possibility is Megow -- at least in the April 1944 issue of MR they advertised building kits (including "Colonial Church, Firehouse, stone, fram and brick effect Houses..and a complete Farmyard.....Printed on heavy boxboard and die cut." (emphasis added) Willard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22211	From: trainliker	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

I did buy the MR DVD and then gave my many, many shelves of MR copies to the local hobby shop to sell three for a dollar or something.  Fortunately, I have a pickup truck.   What you give up in the nice feeling of holding and flipping through a magazine is more than offset (for me anyway) with the search capability, knowing you have a complete set, and freeing up the space for other things you don't need.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Victor Bitleris To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 1:06 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   I have a few issues.  There were some pretty good how-to articles by Linn Westcott on superdetailing Bowser, Mantua, and MDC cast locomotives.  These articles included how to remove cast on details and replace them with accurate piping and brass details from Cal Scale or Kemtron.  I also very much enjoyed the series of articles by Gil Reid on how he built the Ohio River and Wabash RR.  I always wanted to try to incorporate a lot of scenes from his ideas into my own layout.   I think this magazine was supposed to be a transition magazine for modelers starting out in the hobby, but it really had some advanced modeling articles.  I thought it was a bit less formal than Model Railroader.  I wish I could get more of the magazines, but I think my wife would be past her tipping point.  She feels I have way more magazines than I should.  I keep reminding her that I don't have all of the 1930's issues and need to fin in a few holes for the early 1940's issues.  :o)   She would like me to buy the Model Railroader DVD and get rid of my "hard copies", but I REALLY don't want to do that. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 18:55:39 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   Model Trains began in the 1940's as HO Monthly and was acquired by Kalmbach in the early 1950's.  It always seemed to be sort of a shoestring operation with Linn Westcott and Willard Anderson (both Kalmbach supreme muckety-mucks at the time) doing the editorial work as a side to their regular duties.  It ceased publication as a bi monthly in 1962, probably a casualty of the slot car panic.  It had an annual issue for some years afterwards which essentially was a big ad for HO train sets.    My brother gave me a subscription to the magazine when I was 9 or 10 years old -- I think that he had to sell a certain number of magazine subscriptions for school -- and I was a devoted reader.  The product reviews by Linn Westcott were, as you noted, very detailed and aimed at the younger reader.  Willard Anderson wrote a column which included a lot of correspondence from younger modelers.  There were a lot of good structure building articles.  E. L Moore, Robert E. Gilbert, Joe Wilhelm were all contributors, and their works usually involved vast quantities of balsa wood which were within the budgets of paper boys and the like.    I picked up a bunch of back issues on E Bay a while back and enjoy reading them.  In a weak moment I also bought a vast quantity of 50 year old balsa and one of these days . . . John B. Allyn From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 1:34:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach   I had seen some issues of "Model Trains" before, and recently bought a couple.   I wondered if anyone on this group knows for how long it was published.   I am looking at a january 1959 issue and it seems clearly more oriented to the beginner and younger crowd than its big brother, Model Railroader.   Linn Westcott penned some of the columns and articles.  It was published 6 times a year.   The cover banner says:   MODEL RAILROADING MADE EASY MODEL TRAINS (which is printed huge) ALL AGES - ALL GAUGES:  HO - S - O - O27   It's actually pretty darn good vintage reading.  One issue I got has a nice Varney Berkshire review including any of their assembly difficulties.  Kit reviews include tools needed (the tools also shown in a photo with the kit) and estimated time to build.   It might have been a real nice thing if all these had been included with the MR 75 years DVD as a bonus feature.   Anyone know more about this magazine?   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22212	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please....

In my wanderings I picked this up with other, "stuff." As above, plastic kit, Globe, all gold colored plastic F unit kit. Perfect box; contents appear all new and intact. I can't say it's the most authentic looking model I've ever seen, but it must have some merit. Were there powering kits? I vaguely remember these as a kid, but never got one, (or perhaps never had the interest in a gold locomotive). I can't decide whether to complete it, then display it with it's nice box or leave as-is. (Which means I store it and nothing will be done with it) Any comments on these? Dennis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22213	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?

Hi all, Most of these structures are either Ideal or Megow; both lines began in the late 1930s and after World War II as noted, Ideal marketed theirs as part of their "Tiny Town" line. HO Seeker has catalogs from both firms illustrating many of the models shown in the eBay listings. The "Eat Quick" Diner, "Al's" service station and the English Tudor house are definitely by Ideal. From the 30s through the early 50s most layouts shown in MR and RMC had several of these structures, almost everyone included the diner! What I like about them is they realistically portray the architectural heritage of typical late steam era structures, without the "kitschy" misplaced nostalgia incorporated into many of today's modern models of the same type structures. Megow had some great "Cape Cod" typical tract homes. For the most part, both firms buildings seem to reflect a north-east heritage. Ideals Dutch Colonial Stone house would probably only be recognizable to residents of NY/NJ! A West Coast architectural firm, Capella, later I believe Town Craft, had some great 20th-century West Coast type structures including one of the best "modern" brick railway stations I have seen. RMC's cut and assemble models are great as well and offer different prototypes in a different diner. I would recommend any of these often overlooked models to add to your vintage layout. And many of them with additional detailing are accurate enough to be included on any steam era layout. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22214	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit pleas

Hi Dennis, The Globe F units were Irv Athearn's first major effort into injection molded locomotives. The project was first begun by Silver Streak's Prendergast, when he went under, Irv swept in and scooped up the dies and brought them to production. He revived the old Globe name to provide some distance from his regular Athearn line. It would take a couple years before they were offered in Hi-F powered versions as part of the regular Athearn line. In the interim companies such as hobbytown of Boston and Lindsey offered power chassis of several different configuration for them. HobbyTown in particular had a chassis which incorporated the O scale DC 91 motor, and another with a standard HO sized motor. In my opinion it's worth finding that DC 91 chassis if you can. The models were so nice though, that many modelers back in the mid 50s purchased A-B-B-A sets of them in the gold paint to just put on the shelf! So either way you've got yourself a nice find. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22215	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit pleas

I have both the Gold sets and the Silver sets, for those wanting to model the ATSF. They still show up at train shows. Gary ---------- Sent from my not so smart Verizon Wireless mobile semi smart phone. -----Original Message----- From: the_plainsman@... Sent: 3/19/2014 10:08:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please.... Hi Dennis, The Globe F units were Irv Athearn's first major effort into injection molded locomotives. The project was first begun by Silver Streak's Prendergast, when he went under, Irv swept in and scooped up the dies and brought them to production. He revived the old Globe name to provide some distance from his regular Athearn line. It would take a couple years before they were offered in Hi-F powered versions as part of the regular Athearn line. In the interim companies such as hobbytown of Boston and Lindsey offered power chassis of several different configuration for them. HobbyTown in particular had a chassis which incorporated the O scale DC 91 motor, and another with a standard HO sized motor. In my opinion it's worth finding that DC 91 chassis if you can. The models were so nice though, that many modelers back in the mid 50s purchased A-B-B-A sets of them in the gold paint to just put on the shelf! So either way you've got yourself a nice find. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22216	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)

John,   When I had dug back into the Walthers catalogs this morning, I could not find one mention of Marn-O-Stat power sources being offered by them earlier than the mid-1960's (actually it was the 1967 Walthers catalog I pulled out last that appear to be the earliest one with them), after reviewing from the 1980's down through the 1970's which carried them.  This seemed odd as any manufacturer would be sure to offer his own products in his own catalogs if he made them.  Going back through the late 1940's and the 1950's Walthers catalogs showed absolutely nothing -- BUT, you are right -- Marn-O-Stat was available (as a separate company, much earlier).   While they're best known as being produced by Walthers, Walthers wasn't the company which originated them.  Checking through Ma Webster's Model Railroad Equipment Corp. catalogs, I see them being offered in 1953 in that source.  However, Ma Webster did not offer them in 1950.  This is not to say they weren't available in 1950 (or before), but just to show the sources of their availability were apparently more restricted.   I neglected to check out the Walthers 1964 catalog this morning though, but did get to review it for Marn-O-Stat just now.  I reviewed the Walthers 1961 catalog this morning and again, there was no mention of Marn-O-Stat there.  I don't have Walthers' 1962 catalog.  The 1964 catalog states -- on page D-7 --   "NEW !  MARNOLD POWER SYSTEM; What's New !           Here is a summary of the design changes we have made since purchasing the Marnold line in 1962." . . . etc.       The text goes on to list some 13 changes, from A through M, but the main reason for me to bring this up is to illustrate that Walthers didn't start producing these units until 1962, when they bought this manufacturer out, just as they've bought so many other manufacturers out.  I know, you never said that your late '40's Marn-O-Stats were made by Walthers, but as many of those who remember Marn-O-Stat remembers Walthers as the producer, I wanted to illustrate their true origin.  After Walthers bought them out in '62, they became Walthers' Marnold Division.   While I'm on this, some other early power sources (offered by Model R.R. Equipment Corp.) were Scintilla (very popular), Flexi-Pack and PowerKit; this last one being Walthers offering for 1953, an actual kit that needs to be assembled (good for two TT or HO engines).   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/19/2014 9:35:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprinthag@... writes:   Probably into the 80’s but they were around in the late 40’s. We had a couple of them. Way back when I was but a mere lad, before we moved from Appleton to Green Bay which was in September, 1950. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 6:29 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux   Hi Doug, A "Marn-O-Stat" (Marn-O-Power) is a power pack manufacturered and offered by Walthers as their "Marnold" power conversion/controllers starting in the mid-1960's and continuing into the 1980's.  Originally, Walthers offered them in four models -- two single-throttle versions and two double throttle versions.  So, apparently what's being meant here by "asleep at the Marn-O-Stat" means asleep at the throttle < g > (or throttleS, depending on which version we're talking about < G >).). Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22217	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat (was: Zamac & Sal-Met flux)

September 1951, page 56, the Marnold company (MarnoPower)  announced a move to new & larger quarters on the C&NW line in West Chicago, so they had been around a while. Willard At 06:31 PM 3/19/2014, you wrote: When I had dug back into the Walthers catalogs this morning, I could not find one mention of Marn-O-Stat power sources being offered by them earlier than the mid-1960's (actually it was the 1967 Walthers catalog I <snip> through the late 1940's and the 1950's Walthers catalogs showed absolutely nothing -- BUT, you are right -- Marn-O-Stat was available (as a separate company, much earlier).   While they're best known as being produced by Walthers, Walthers wasn't the company which originated them.  Checking through Ma Webster's Model Railroad Equipment Corp. catalogs, I see them being offered in 1953 in that source.  However, Ma Webster did not offer them in 1950.  This is not to say they weren't available in 1950 (or before), but just to show the sources of their availability were apparently more restricted.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22218	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

Willard,   Yes, the magazine called"HO Monthly" became "Model Trains" in later years, although I'd have to dig back into my collection of them to find exactly when that happened (couldn't tell you off the top of my head when the change occurred).  The HO Monthly issues were dated for the 15th of the month (April 15, 1951, March 15, 1952, etc.) and of course, it was published monthly.  I have a good number of them and one of the features I enjoyed about them was the prototype operations articles that could include prototype photos, maps and diagrams.  These articles were especially enjoyable when they were written on a subject in the reader's vicinity; they added more info than you could obtain otherwise, which was often much more than any outside source you could find.  I can't remember at the moment whether prototype articles were included in every issue or not.  Then too, RMC had similar content.  Some of the later issues -- of "Model Trains" by that time -- were dated as just "Summer 1960," as an example, spanning several months.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/19/2014 3:16:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wseehorn@... writes:   I subscribed to it. The issue that announced that they were ceasing publication arrived on my birthday (don't remember which one), but it was in the early 1960s. I built a lot of buildings from articles that appeared in it. I believe, but am not sure, that it grew out of an earlier magazine called HO monthly. Willard  At 02:34 PM 3/19/2014, you wrote: I had seen some issues of "Model Trains" before, and recently bought a couple.   I wondered if anyone on this group knows for how long it was published.   I am looking at a january 1959 issue and it seems clearly more oriented to the beginner and younger crowd than its big brother, Model Railroader.   Linn Westcott penned some of the columns and articles.  It was published 6 times a year.   The cover banner says:   MODEL RAILROADING MADE EASY MODEL TRAINS (which is printed huge) ALL AGES - ALL GAUGES:  HO - S - O - O27   It's actually pretty darn good vintage reading.  One issue I got has a nice Varney Berkshire review including any of their assembly difficulties.  Kit reviews include tools needed (the tools also shown in a photo with the kit) and estimated time to build.   It might have been a real nice thing if all these had been included with the MR 75 years DVD as a bonus feature.   Anyone know more about this magazine?   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22219	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

On 3/19/2014 4:47 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote: > In my wanderings I picked this up with other, "stuff." As above, > plastic kit, Globe, all gold colored plastic F unit kit. Perfect > box; contents appear all new and intact. I can't say it's the most > authentic looking model I've ever seen, but it must have some > merit. Were there powering kits? I vaguely remember these as a kid, > but never got one, (or perhaps never had the interest in a gold locomotive). > > I can't decide whether to complete it, then display it with it's nice > box or leave as-is. (Which means I store it and nothing will be done > with it) > > Any comments on these? > > Dennis > > Not so rare that I've never held one in my hot little hand, but still attractive enough that I wouldn't do anything with it as far as as paint or modifications. For power, that is the first incarnation of the ubiquitous Athearn Blue Box F-7. Any drive for the Athearn F will fit right in. If you want to stay true to era, try to find a Globe or early Hobbytown drive. -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22220	From: daddy8083	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

Hello Vic and others:   Remember digital cassette tape (radio Shack TRS-80), 5 in. floppy discs, 3 1/2 in. discs, now CD/DVDs?  They are now being replaced by flash drives and SD cards... meanwhile those old magazines in the spare rooms, or attics, or basements are still there - fully readable.  Maybe musty smelling, maybe dog eared, one or two missing... they bring back memories.  I have MY old stereo and MR, as well as Trains...inside stuff I once lusted for.  I'm sure your wives have old things that they cherish... tell them we want ours.  We COULD be at a bar.   Best regards.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22221	From: larry Smith	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

I have all of the HO Model Trains and Model trains issues. I bought them from the NMRA Library when they were declared surplus, many years ago. There are many gems in them. You can see the start of HOn3 and find plans for cars that have never been published since. While not as detailed, you can get some great ideas from them. Robert Gilbert is one of the authors and he did articles on North Carolina and Tennessee structures on the Southern and Clinchfield railroads. He did one builders supply building that was served by the Tweetsie. Some of his structures, namely the farm house and barn from his mountain farm have ended up as kits, Campbell's farm house and barn kits. There were several occasions that Kalmbach printed the same track plan in both magazines and only changed the name. The Portage Hill and Commupaw started in Model Trains and finished up in MR when it was discontinued. Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22222	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

> A "Marn-O-Stat" (Marn-O-Power) is a power pack manufacturered and > offered by Walthers as their "Marnold" power conversion/controllers > starting in the mid-1960's and continuing into the 1980's. > Originally, Walthers offered them in four models -- two > single-throttle versions and two double throttle versions. So, > apparently what's being meant here by "asleep at the Marn-O-Stat" > means asleep at the throttle< g> (or throttleS, depending on which > version we're talking about< G>).). Hi Guys and Gals. Thanks for this info - I hadn't heard of them in this part of the world.. Although others here may have.. Re Sleeping - don't forget Rule G.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22223	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...

While Hobbytown's 8-wheel drive for the Globe F Unit came out around the same time as Athearn's 8-wheel F-Unit drive, Kemtron and Lindsay also came out with their drives for the Globe shell somewhere around this same time.  Kemtron's and Lindsay's were 4-wheel drives though.  A characteristic of Hobbytown's F-Unit drive was undersize drive wheels.  Athearn's drive would seem to be the way to go.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/19/2014 6:28:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, don.dellmann@... writes: > > Not so rare that I've never held one in my hot little hand, but still attractive enough that I wouldn't do anything with it as far as as paint or modifications. For power, that is the first incarnation of the ubiquitous Athearn Blue Box F-7. Any drive for the Athearn F will fit right in. If you want to stay true to era, try to find a Globe or early Hobbytown drive. -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22224	From: albyrno	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit pleas

HO seeker website has diagrams/pictures of both  Lindsay and Hobbytown drives for these locos.  Alan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22225	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

On 20/03/14 8:18, Denis Long wrote: > Chuck, > > You might be able to find it on www.railpub.com > > Denis Wow! Quite a supply of books. With some eye-watering prices for early editions. I collect Trains Magazine - my early editions must be worth a fortune.. No, I'm not going to tell you my address.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22226	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...

Ray W., Thanks for that reminder about the hobbytown of Boston chassis having those undersize wheelsets. I'll have to find time this weekend to unpack mine and photograph it. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22227	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO

To address the question of resistance soldering, the simplest answer is no.  The typical resistance unit sold for modeling is 100 watts.  In my experience, this does not have enough power to do anything on a heavy metal casting.  The larger American Beauty is 200 watts, and this is marginal.  To get really good solder flow on something like a larger cast bronze or brass boiler, I generally find that I need a torch. I may have missed all of the answers, but has anyone actually said that they bought a particular currently available solder and flux, and then been able to solder to a Bowser boiler, for example?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22228	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO

I don't know about the hobby grade of resistance soldering.  I was lucky enough to buy two 900-watt Luma Electric resistance soldering units over the last several years. The first one was bought in the mid-70's for $5 from a college radio club and the second was bought for a bit under $50 some months ago from eBay as a potential replacement if the first one ever goes out on me. I bought an American Beauty hand tool some years ago for it. But generally use ones that I make for under $5 as insulated carbon rod holders from round chuck craft knives.  The 900-watt Luma units are often available used for well under $100. The two I have are both used units with no real problems from that. I rarely use more than the lower power settings on it. I have no fear about doing truly heavy soldering if need be. I've sometime wondered what the next model with its 2500-watts would be like to use. It's gotta be just too much power for any hobby user. I see there's one on eBay for $299...... Just too much power with that 2500-watt model, in my eyes. Keep your eyes open for a good buy on one of the 900-watt models. I was told that my first one was used on a Delco catalytic converter production line. They are quite durable tools. The new ones look exactly the same as my late 1960's built one.   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 19, 2014, at 6:59 PM, <johnhutnick@...> wrote: To address the question of resistance soldering, the simplest answer is no.  The typical resistance unit sold for modeling is 100 watts.  In my experience, this does not have enough power to do anything on a heavy metal casting.  The larger American Beauty is 200 watts, and this is marginal.  To get really good solder flow on something like a larger cast bronze or brass boiler, I generally find that I need a torch. I may have missed all of the answers, but has anyone actually said that they bought a particular currently available solder and flux, and then been able to solder to a Bowser boiler, for example?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22229	From: rcjge	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...

Guys: I have a couple of HT F Chassis with Globe, well I think globe bodies on them. Assuming there's no motor installed (but not a dummy) what distinguishes the ones that had a DC-91 (the "O" scale motor? I assume the HT wheelsets can be replaced with proper sized ones? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22230	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...

Attachments : Hi Jeff, the attached assembly diagram from the "HO Seeker collection" should be of some help. Those separate diecast weights sometimes are lost over the years, though. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22231	From: rcjge	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...

Jay: I don't see any diagram. I know HOS contributed a few items but should I look under Globe or HT or Athearn? -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22232	From: rcjge	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit ple...

found it ! Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22233	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Globe, "Gold Kit A98," dummy F unit - Jay W: Bingo !

This is a great thread. Thanks for all the tips. Jay, the diagram you posted rang a bell as soon as I saw it. I ran down in the basement where I just organized things 2 days ago. I remembered I had an F unit drive I picked up somewhere and it sat above this computer on a shelf for weeks until I just reorganized. I grabbed it. Thought it was the one from your diagram but not quite. I just dug through the HOSeeker site again, and what I have is an early Athern F unit geared drive chassis. Center, "square," looking motor, an inverted, "Tee," shape weight fore and aft of the centrally mounted motor, and gear reduction towers above each truck. 8 wheel drive. Old unpainted cast truck sideframes very similar to the rubber-band-drive casting trucks. This must be exactly what some of you recommend for the Globe, right? I never knew before what it was for and it has NO markings on it. Ha. What a few tips will trigger in memory and in-house re-discoveries. I have a table next Sunday at the Lewiston, Idaho, Train Show, so I'm curious what old stuff might show up there. Thanks to all, Dennis At 07:06 PM 3/19/2014, you wrote: >Hi Jeff, the attached assembly diagram from the "HO Seeker >collection" should be of some help. Those separate diecast weights >sometimes are lost over the years, though. W. Jay W. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22234	From: bvasilion@ameritech.net	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

Good Luck it seems very few want any magazines anymore. Especially since Kalmbach has released some of their Model Ralroad books and Classic toytrains and Model Railroader on DVD...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22235	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Funny this subject would come up just now! I just got through posting some pictures of my Lindsay Drive for these Globe units on my newly created "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors" Facebook Group! Check it out, and post some pics of your related items! Thanks, Van.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22236	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Sounds interesting but although I have a rarely used facebook account, I have no earthly idea how to find your new group on there..... Dennis At 09:54 PM 3/19/2014, you wrote: >Funny this subject would come up just now! I just got through >posting some pictures of my Lindsay Drive for these Globe units on >my newly created "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors" Facebook Group! >Check it out, and post some pics of your related items! Thanks, Van.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22237	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/19/2014
Subject: Re: Model Trains magazine by Kalmbach

The nice thing about the archive DVDs is that you finally get to see the earlier volumes that would otherwise be very hard to find. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 19, 2014, at 10:20 PM, <bvasilion@...> wrote: Good Luck it seems very few want any magazines anymore. Especially since Kalmbach has released some of their Model Ralroad books and Classic toytrains and Model Railroader on DVD...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22238	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO

John, I have soldered to die-cast boilers for several years using a phosphoric acid paste flux and a medium-temp electronic solder (145 C) solder from Eileens Emporium (google search and you will find them.) The next thing I want to try is the new Carr's Zinc-rich Solder. Link for it is: http://www.finescale.org.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=446_453_456&product_id=3695 I don't use a torch on die-cast, just a large soldering iron with a heavy tip that puts a lot of heat in one spot very quickly. I also tin the brass part (assuming I am soldering a brass detail part to a die-cast boiler) to have better and quicker soldering. Matt Coleman ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <johnhutnick@...> wrote : To address the question of resistance soldering, the simplest answer is no.  The typical resistance unit sold for modeling is 100 watts.  In my experience, this does not have enough power to do anything on a heavy metal casting.  The larger American Beauty is 200 watts, and this is marginal.  To get really good solder flow on something like a larger cast bronze or brass boiler, I generally find that I need a torch. I may have missed all of the answers, but has anyone actually said that they bought a particular currently available solder and flux, and then been able to solder to a Bowser boiler, for example?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22239	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Don Dellman wrote, "Any drive for the Athearn F will fit right in."   This is true IF you don't put in the cab back wall piece.  I have one of the A-units buried in one of my boxes, and there are some notable differences from later Athearn production.  First is that the number boards were separate castings that glued on over dimples on the nose, and the second is that there were two "bulkheads" to be glued to the frame.  These bulkheads actually represented the back wall of the engineer's compartment, the rear one not being prototypical.  If you glued the front one into the body where it belongs, you can't use any drive train that connects the motor directly to the front truck, or where the motor sits at that spot driving the rear truck (I'm thinking Hobbytown).   Here's the sheet from HOSeeker:  http://hoseeker.net/Globe/globeaf7adummydiagram.jpg   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22240	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit pleas

It's easy Dennis. Once you're on your Facebook page, just type in what, or who you're looking for in the search bar at the top of the page, just like Google Search, and, just like Google or Bing, etc.,  you'll get a "drop down" showing search results. Then just click the desired link and you're there! There is an incredible amount of groups with Facebook pages. Just do random searches of topics, or people you're interested in and you'll be amazed what will turn up! VBC. I used to slam Facebook users for being so caught up in it, but the interest group idea is awesome indeed! VBC.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22241	From: david_helber	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Attachments : Marnostat1.o.gif My favorite comment on the Marn-o-Stat was made on a different forum - Those impressive Marnold controls on a big centralized control panel made a model railroader look like he meant business.  Give that man a pipe, a "Model Railroading is Fun" engineers hat, a yard filled with cars equipped with Mantua or Baker couplers, and some shredded asbestos scenery -- all lit up with as many as three 75 watt bulbs dangling from the rafters -- and you were all set to be a cover boy for MR back in the 1950s.  Might as well throw in a photo of what we're talking about, though it hardly does justice to the Marnold system's true magnificence.    The system was built in modules that could be mixed and matched. Left to right in the picture, you have a power module containing the crushingly muscular transformer and rectifier, the famed Marn-o-Stat throttle lever, a big reversing lever-switch, a master on-off toggle and a load compensator lever; next there's a metering module with ammeter and voltmeter; then a second cab module with throttle and smaller controls. There were other modules available for monitor lights, remote turnout throws, block controls, etc. The modules are big (faces about 7"x7"), with a faux-hammered enamel finish that holds like an assault team of leeches. They're screwed and bolted together - no folding tabs - with an exposed breaker in fuse clips, and, on the electrical posts, proper knurled finger-nuts, big ones. The smaller units were box shaped, the module cabinets had a proper sloping faceplate. But the great part is the throttle lever. Who can feel like he's controlling a massive 4-8-4 or an A-B-B-A lashup of Alco PAs by twiddling a little radio tuning knob? Pushing + and - buttons? Give-me-a-break!  But with a massive, manly lever with twelve full inches of throw, you are right there, one with the machine. It won't even move for you, unless you are wearing your striped engineer's cap and bandanna. Goggles around the neck wouldn't hurt either. And as you move it, the slider on the six-inches of semicircular rheostat growls to let you know it's working. Furthermore, it can be mounted on its side, if you want a correct horizontal pull-to-you/push-away throttle motion.  If Casey Jones is running model trains up in Railroad Heaven, he's doing it  with a Marn-o-Stat throttle lever. -- D

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22242	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

On 3/20/2014 7:40 AM, Alpvalsys@... wrote: Don Dellman wrote, "Any drive for the Athearn F will fit right in."   This is true IF you don't put in the cab back wall piece.  I have one of the A-units buried in one of my boxes, and there are some notable differences from later Athearn production.  First is that the number boards were separate castings that glued on over dimples on the nose, and the second is that there were two "bulkheads" to be glued to the frame.  These bulkheads actually represented the back wall of the engineer's compartment, the rear one not being prototypical.  If you glued the front one into the body where it belongs, you can't use any drive train that connects the motor directly to the front truck, or where the motor sits at that spot driving the rear truck (I'm thinking Hobbytown).   Here's the sheet from HOSeeker:  http://hoseeker.net/Globe/globeaf7adummydiagram.jpg   Ralph Balfoort In addition to the separate number boards, all the original Globes were single headlight. As for the bulkheads, true, except as you say, the bulkheads were to be glued to the frame/floor, and every one I have had was built like that.  You don't use the floor if your powering the unit, so that's usually not an issue. All my Globes are riding on Athearn chassis. Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22243	From: david_helber	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Who Made These '50s Buildings?

Attachments : 227-hessians-in-town-330.jpg 21-Gowanus-Mill-front-opt.jpg 14-VChse-from-SW-opt.jpg ---Mike sez : I'd like to try my hand on these building with model software. 1] I prefer Mac software. Does anyone know of a good package to make up these buildings with a Mac? ... Anyone have any favorite software for this sort of project that they could suggest? ========================== Mike, I've done a number of buildings with printed details. I'm on a Mac also - a very old one, though I will be upgrading to something more current this year.   The software I use is an old version of Adobe Illustrator. As a professional level vector-based drawing software, Illustrator is probably too expensive for most hobbyists, but I'll bet a bit of searching will turn up a downloadable open-source software that will do much the same thing, at least as far as hobby needs go. I have Illustrator because I used to work with it professionally. It is not a CAD program. I use it to draw the wall outlines, windows, etc. Sometimes the surface textures, such as brick or wood, can be done in Illustrator, but often I download free textures from the web, and resize, duplicate, and crop to fit. If I were to try to replicate the buildings in the eBay auction, I would be able to do it all directly in Illustrator. If I were to try to do the same basic building, but enhance the detail or 3-D look, I might use some of the textures. I'm enclosing pictures of a couple of buildings I did for a friend's American Revolution tabletop wargames. They are selectively-compressed representations of a wooden mill building and a stone house which were focal points in the Battle of Long Island (aka Battle of Brooklyn). They're printed on adhesive paper and mounted to foamcore board. -- D

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22244	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]

On 21/03/14 8:42, dnhelber@... wrote: > My favorite comment on the Marn-o-Stat was made on a different forum - > Those impressive Marnold controls on a big centralized control panel made a model railroader look like he meant business. Give that man a pipe, a "Model Railroading is Fun" engineers hat, a yard filled with cars equipped with Mantua or Baker couplers, and some shredded asbestos scenery -- all lit up with as many as three 75 watt bulbs dangling from the rafters -- and you were all set to be a cover boy for MR back in the 1950s. > > > > Might as well throw in a photo of what we're talking about, though it hardly does justice to the Marnold system's true magnificence. > > The system was built in modules that could be mixed and matched. Left to right in the picture, you have a power module containing the crushingly muscular transformer and rectifier, the famed Marn-o-Stat throttle lever, a big reversing lever-switch, a master on-off toggle and a load compensator lever; next there's a metering module with ammeter and voltmeter; then a second cab module with throttle and smaller controls. > There were other modules available for monitor lights, remote turnout throws, block controls, etc. > > > The modules are big (faces about 7"x7"), with a faux-hammered enamel finish that holds like an assault team of leeches. They're screwed and bolted together - no folding tabs - with an exposed breaker in fuse clips, and, on the electrical posts, proper knurled finger-nuts, big ones. The smaller units were box shaped, the module cabinets had a proper sloping faceplate. > > > But the great part is the throttle lever. Who can feel like he's controlling a massive 4-8-4 or an A-B-B-A lashup of Alco PAs by twiddling a little radio tuning knob? Pushing + and - buttons? Give-me-a-break! But with a massive, manly lever with twelve full inches of throw, you are right there, one with the machine. It won't even move for you, unless you are wearing your striped engineer's cap and bandanna. Goggles around the neck wouldn't hurt either. And as you move it, the slider on the six-inches of semicircular rheostat growls to let you know it's working. Furthermore, it can be mounted on its side, if you want a correct horizontal pull-to-you/push-away throttle motion. > > > If Casey Jones is running model trains up in Railroad Heaven, he's doing it with a Marn-o-Stat throttle lever. > > > -- D > > > > > > -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22245	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]

OOPS1 Sorry - I hit the wrong button.. On 21/03/14 8:42, dnhelber@... wrote: > My favorite comment on the Marn-o-Stat was made on a different forum > - Those impressive Marnold controls on a big centralized control > panel made a model railroader look like he meant business. Give that > man a pipe, a "Model Railroading is Fun" engineers hat, a yard filled > with cars equipped with Mantua or Baker couplers, and some shredded > asbestos scenery -- all lit up with as many as three 75 watt bulbs > dangling from the rafters -- and you were all set to be a cover boy > for MR back in the 1950s. Curiouser and curiouser, as Alice would have said.. Could somebody send me a link please, or a file of the picture/s? Somewhere in the system, all attachments get wiped from my incoming messages.. Many Thanks! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22246	From: david_helber	Date: 3/20/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]

Attachments : Marnostat-rheo.o.jpg Doug, Something is garbled in your message. In the messages list, It looks like you're asking for a link, but when I look at the message itself, that text beginning "Curioser..." isn't there at all. Please repost if you still want a link or other info. Meanwhile, here is a "below the belt" shot of the Marn-O-Stat. They were building for the ages. - D

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22247	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]

On 21/03/14 13:58, dnhelber@... wrote: > Doug, Something is garbled in your message. In the messages list, It looks like you're asking for a link, but when I look at the message itself, that text beginning "Curioser..." isn't there at all. Please repost if you still want a link or other info. > > > Meanwhile, here is a "below the belt" shot of the Marn-O-Stat. They were building for the ages. > > > - D Thanks D. (Do tell us your name..) I don't receive any attachments to postings to this group. If you can send me the Marn-O-Stat ones, or a link to them, I'd appreciated that. Tks.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22248	From: david_helber	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]

Doug, I can't find you in the members list to send a private email. I think you should be able to reach the pictures at these URLs: MARNOLD MODULES https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/12104862/or/1615201382/name/Marnostat1.o.gif MARN-O-STAT https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/12104862/or/2122163786/name/Marnostat-rheo.o.jpg -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22249	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Attachments : Here's the Lindsay Drive Dennis. The attached photos clearly show the forward bulkhead that Don is referring to. Like Don has said, the Globe shells differ slightly from the Athearn shells in several aspects. When installing these shells on an Athearn chassis, you're going to run into a few issues. First being the tabs on the side of the Athearn frames meant to hold the chassis into the body. The opening in the Globe shell will need to be opened up to accept the tabs on the Athearn chassis. Second, as designed, the Globe shell was held onto the chassis by the installation of the couplers through the openings at either end of the body, not by the massive amounts of glue you'll find on some assembled Globe models. These openings conflict with the installation of any of the later "Gear Drive" Athearn chassis'. Unfortunately, I've several of these shells, in otherwise very good shape, that have been "modified" to accept these drives, thus precluding their use in a vintage restoration. These shells live on, however, with custom paint jobs and added detail, on quite a few of my "run 'em every day" models like the Pennsy units in the pictures!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22250	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Pictures? What Pictures?!!! My attachments didn't go through again! I know there's a way of doing it, but Yahoo makes such as mess out of it! So done with Yahoo!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22251	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

the photos showed up in my email. maybe just not yehaws site. Gary ---------- Sent from my not so smart Verizon Wireless mobile semi smart phone. -----Original Message----- From: tehachapikid@... Sent: 3/21/2014 2:06:26 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please Pictures? What Pictures?!!! My attachments didn't go through again! I know there's a way of doing it, but Yahoo makes such as mess out of it! So done with Yahoo!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22252	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Globe F Units, was Tell me.....

List, re: the Globe units,for those interested in the Globe F7's, either for operating them or wanting mint examples of the kits for their collection, I am offering my A-B-B-A set. Each are unbuilt in their boxes, which themselves are in fine condition as well. These are the Silver finish versions. Box labels say "Silver A98" for the A units and "Silver B89" for the B units. These are the dummy kits. Parts bag still sealed in each kit. $40.00 for the 4 plus shipping. Let me know off list if interested. Thanks, Gary ---------- Sent from my not so smart Verizon Wireless mobile semi smart phone.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22253	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Your photos came through to me just fine. Thank you for doing that as I guess I've never seen the Lindsey power system. This has all gotten very interesting for me and I've learned a lot. Dennis in E WA At 07:06 AM 3/21/2014, you wrote: >Pictures? What Pictures?!!! My attachments didn't go through again! >I know there's a way of doing it, but Yahoo makes such as mess out >of it! So done with Yahoo!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22254	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

On 3/21/2014 9:06 AM, tehachapikid@... wrote: Pictures? What Pictures?!!! My attachments didn't go through again! I know there's a way of doing it, but Yahoo makes such as mess out of it! So done with Yahoo! Easiest way would be to go to the group home page, go to photos, create a photo album and upload the pictures there. As far as photo attachments not going through with your messages, that's not Yahoo. That's a problem with either your ISP or your own email program.  I know I have a problem often with Thunderbird not liking attachments. Don Listowner -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22255	From: trainliker	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Attachments :  This thread started with the comment that perhaps they would just be put on display.   Well, Globe anticipated that and made "Display" versions (which are pretty hard to find).   Using ebay as an indicator, the gold were the most prevalent, then silver.  When painting for roadnames started, I think UP was first and I have seen instructions indicating the UP paint scheme even in boxes painted for other schemes.  The only schemes I have seen are UP, SF, and SP (Black Widow).   I have a "Display A" and "Display B" set and have attached photos.  I am thinking of starting a "Hall of the Unusual" group photo folder for things like this.   Regarding the display units:  I think they might have used TruScale roadbed and squared up the edges.  The clear material is a flexible and you can see how it is folded into a box shape with little flaps.  It is probably acetate.  The models are assembled, have the dummy couplers which also got painted, and the clear cover stapled on.  The corners at one end look like damage, but they were sanded that way on purpose for both the A and B displays.  I suspect that perhaps the clear covers were fitting a little bit too tight or something and they did this to lessen the periphery slightly.  The clear cover is simply stapled on.   The Globe guy(s) would have been very proud of this casting.  Back then, it took a great deal more work to make a die (and I'm sure this was in steel) than it does today.  I have been involved in such things a little and the excitement of seeing the first one made is very high, especially if the mold works well.  Since most of the loose units I see are gold, it is interesting that they selected silver for the display model.  Perhaps this was considered nicer looking to someone there.   I have always considered the Globe shells to be an important contribution to HO.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   On 3/21/2014 9:06 AM, tehachapikid@... wrote: Pictures? What Pictures?!!! My attachments didn't go through again! I know there's a way of doing it, but Yahoo makes such as mess out of it! So done with Yahoo! Easiest way would be to go to the group home page, go to photos, create a photo album and upload the pictures there. As far as photo attachments not going through with your messages, that's not Yahoo. That's a problem with either your ISP or your own email program.  I know I have a problem often with Thunderbird not liking attachments. Don Listowner -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22256	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat [1 Attachment]

Somewhere, somehow, I got the idea that the Marn-O-Stat throttle was NOT a rheostat, but rather a variac. Well, if it isn't [wasn't] the Marn-O-Stat that utilized a variac, which vintage throttle did? On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:42 PM, <dnhelber@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from dnhelber@... included below] My favorite comment on the Marn-o-Stat was made on a different forum - Those impressive Marnold controls on a big centralized control panel made a model railroader look like he meant business.  Give that man a pipe, a "Model Railroading is Fun" engineers hat, a yard filled with cars equipped with Mantua or Baker couplers, and some shredded asbestos scenery -- all lit up with as many as three 75 watt bulbs dangling from the rafters -- and you were all set to be a cover boy for MR back in the 1950s.  Might as well throw in a photo of what we're talking about, though it hardly does justice to the Marnold system's true magnificence.    The system was built in modules that could be mixed and matched. Left to right in the picture, you have a power module containing the crushingly muscular transformer and rectifier, the famed Marn-o-Stat throttle lever, a big reversing lever-switch, a master on-off toggle and a load compensator lever; next there's a metering module with ammeter and voltmeter; then a second cab module with throttle and smaller controls. There were other modules available for monitor lights, remote turnout throws, block controls, etc. The modules are big (faces about 7"x7"), with a faux-hammered enamel finish that holds like an assault team of leeches. They're screwed and bolted together - no folding tabs - with an exposed breaker in fuse clips, and, on the electrical posts, proper knurled finger-nuts, big ones. The smaller units were box shaped, the module cabinets had a proper sloping faceplate. But the great part is the throttle lever. Who can feel like he's controlling a massive 4-8-4 or an A-B-B-A lashup of Alco PAs by twiddling a little radio tuning knob? Pushing + and - buttons? Give-me-a-break!  But with a massive, manly lever with twelve full inches of throw, you are right there, one with the machine. It won't even move for you, unless you are wearing your striped engineer's cap and bandanna. Goggles around the neck wouldn't hurt either. And as you move it, the slider on the six-inches of semicircular rheostat growls to let you know it's working. Furthermore, it can be mounted on its side, if you want a correct horizontal pull-to-you/push-away throttle motion.  If Casey Jones is running model trains up in Railroad Heaven, he's doing it  with a Marn-o-Stat throttle lever. -- D -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22257	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Im guessing the Display versions were pre built up kits that were made available to the hobby shops for display items to get customers to buy their kits. But thats a guess only. Thats why they are harder to find in the display box. they were probably later sold themselves after the kits were sold and in turn taken out of their display boxes and used. ...Gary ---------- Sent from my not so smart Verizon Wireless mobile semi smart phone. -----Original Message----- From: ckinzer@... Sent: 3/21/2014 4:08:08 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please ? This thread started with the comment that perhaps they would just be put on display.   Well, Globe anticipated that and made "Display" versions (which are pretty hard to find).   Using ebay as an indicator, the gold were the most prevalent, then silver.  When painting for roadnames started, I think UP was first and I have seen instructions indicating the UP paint scheme even in boxes painted for other schemes.  The only schemes I have seen are UP, SF, and SP (Black Widow).   I have a "Display A" and "Display B" set and have attached photos.  I am thinking of starting a "Hall of the Unusual" group photo folder for things like this.   Regarding the display units:  I think they might have used TruScale roadbed and squared up the edges.  The clear material is a flexible and you can see how it is folded into a box shape with little flaps.  It is probably acetate.  The models are assembled, have the dummy couplers which also got painted, and the clear cover stapled on.  The corners at one end look like damage, but they were sanded that way on purpose for both the A and B displays.  I suspect that perhaps the clear covers were fitting a little bit too tight or something and they did this to lessen the periphery slightly.  The clear cover is simply stapled on.   The Globe guy(s) would have been very proud of this casting.  Back then, it took a great deal more work to make a die (and I'm sure this was in steel) than it does today.  I have been involved in such things a little and the excitement of seeing the first one made is very high, especially if the mold works well.  Since most of the loose units I see are gold, it is interesting that they selected silver for the display model.  Perhaps this was considered nicer looking to someone there.   I have always considered the Globe shells to be an important contribution to HO.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   On 3/21/2014 9:06 AM, tehachapikid@... wrote: Pictures? What Pictures?!!! My attachments didn't go through again! I know there's a way of doing it, but Yahoo makes such as mess out of it! So done with Yahoo! Easiest way would be to go to the group home page, go to photos, create a photo album and upload the pictures there. As far as photo attachments not going through with your messages, that's not Yahoo. That's a problem with either your ISP or your own email program.  I know I have a problem often with Thunderbird not liking attachments. Don Listowner -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22258	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Chuck, nice to see these.  Thanks for posting the photos. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of ckinzer@... Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 12:08 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     o;?   This thread started with the comment that perhaps they would just be put on display.   Well, Globe anticipated that and made "Display" versions (which are pretty hard to find).   Using ebay as an indicator, the gold were the most prevalent, then silver.  When painting for roadnames started, I think UP was first and I have seen instructions indicating the UP paint scheme even in boxes painted for other schemes.  The only schemes I have seen are UP, SF, and SP (Black Widow).   I have a "Display A" and "Display B" set and have attached photos.  I am thinking of starting a "Hall of the Unusual" group photo folder for things like this.   Regarding the display units:  I think they might have used TruScale roadbed and squared up the edges.  The clear material is a flexible and you can see how it is folded into a box shape with little flaps.  It is probably acetate.  The models are assembled, have the dummy couplers which also got painted, and the clear cover stapled on.  The corners at one end look like damage, but they were sanded that way on purpose for both the A and B displays.  I suspect that perhaps the clear covers were fitting a little bit too tight or something and they did this to lessen the periphery slightly.  The clear cover is simply stapled on.   The Globe guy(s) would have been very proud of this casting.  Back then, it took a great deal more work to make a die (and I'm sure this was in steel) than it does today.  I have been involved in such things a little and the excitement of seeing the first one made is very high, especially if the mold works well.  Since most of the loose units I see are gold, it is interesting that they selected silver for the display model.  Perhaps this was considered nicer looking to someone there.   I have always considered the Globe shells to be an important contribution to HO.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Dellmann To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     On 3/21/2014 9:06 AM, tehachapikid@... wrote: Pictures? What Pictures?!!! My attachments didn't go through again! I know there's a way of doing it, but Yahoo makes such as mess out of it! So done with Yahoo! Easiest way would be to go to the group home page, go to photos, create a photo album and upload the pictures there. As far as photo attachments not going through with your messages, that's not Yahoo. That's a problem with either your ISP or your own email program.  I know I have a problem often with Thunderbird not liking attachments. Don Listowner -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22259	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

On 3/21/2014 11:08 AM, ckinzer@... wrote:  This thread started with the comment that perhaps they would just be put on display.   Well, Globe anticipated that and made "Display" versions (which are pretty hard to find).   Using ebay as an indicator, the gold were the most prevalent, then silver.  When painting for roadnames started, I think UP was first and I have seen instructions indicating the UP paint scheme even in boxes painted for other schemes.  The only schemes I have seen are UP, SF, and SP (Black Widow).   I have a "Display A" and "Display B" set and have attached photos.  I am thinking of starting a "Hall of the Unusual" group photo folder for things like this.   Regarding the display units:  I think they might have used TruScale roadbed and squared up the edges.  The clear material is a flexible and you can see how it is folded into a box shape with little flaps.  It is probably acetate.  The models are assembled, have the dummy couplers which also got painted, and the clear cover stapled on.  The corners at one end look like damage, but they were sanded that way on purpose for both the A and B displays.  I suspect that perhaps the clear covers were fitting a little bit too tight or something and they did this to lessen the periphery slightly.  The clear cover is simply stapled on.   The Globe guy(s) would have been very proud of this casting.  Back then, it took a great deal more work to make a die (and I'm sure this was in steel) than it does today.  I have been involved in such things a little and the excitement of seeing the first one made is very high, especially if the mold works well.  Since most of the loose units I see are gold, it is interesting that they selected silver for the display model.  Perhaps this was considered nicer looking to someone there.   I have always considered the Globe shells to be an important contribution to HO.   Chuck Kinzer   I got to meet Carl Traub once, the guy who made the die for Globe.  Quite a guy. As far as an important contribution, I would call them probably one of the most important contributions to the hobby in history.  That was THE model that took model railroading out of the realm of the rather esoteric hobbyist and into the hands of every boy! Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22260	From: sprinthag	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Don,   You know with inflation those old 50 cent words now run to the north of $5.00 each. Please try to keep costs in mind.   Thank you, John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22261	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

On 3/21/2014 4:19 PM, sprinthag@... wrote: Don,   You know with inflation those old 50 cent words now run to the north of $5.00 each. Please try to keep costs in mind.   Thank you, John Hagen The Athearn Globe F-7A used to sell for a $ 1.29 too.  B units were 98 cents.  :-) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22262	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Marnold was a rheostat, sometimes with a series load compensator (read:  fixed resistor). The only transformer I know of that was a variac was the Right of Way Industries model 2020, a 400 watt unit that ran 3 rail AC trains.  I know that for sure because I designed it.   Marnold made quite an excellent machine; i have a few.  I especially like the comments below about model railroaders with engineer caps and pipes.  I just had this discussion [about pipes] with a fellow collector.   Regards,   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: bayerw2@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 12:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat Somewhere, somehow, I got the idea that the Marn-O-Stat throttle was NOT a rheostat, but rather a variac. Well, if it isn't [wasn't] the Marn-O-Stat that utilized a variac, which vintage throttle did? On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:42 PM, <dnhelber@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from dnhelber@... included below] My favorite comment on the Marn-o-Stat was made on a different forum - Those impressive Marnold controls on a big centralized control panel made a model railroader look like he meant business.  Give that man a pipe, a "Model Railroading is Fun" engineers hat, a yard filled with cars equipped with Mantua or Baker couplers, and some shredded asbestos scenery -- all lit up with as many as three 75 watt bulbs dangling from the rafters -- and you were all set to be a cover boy for MR back in the 1950s.  Might as well throw in a photo of what we're talking about, though it hardly does justice to the Marnold system's true magnificence.    The system was built in modules that could be mixed and matched. Left to right in the picture, you have a power module containing the crushingly muscular transformer and rectifier, the famed Marn-o-Stat throttle lever, a big reversing lever-switch, a master on-off toggle and a load compensator lever; next there's a metering module with ammeter and voltmeter; then a second cab module with throttle and smaller controls. There were other modules available for monitor lights, remote turnout throws, block controls, etc. The modules are big (faces about 7"x7"), with a faux-hammered enamel finish that holds like an assault team of leeches. They're screwed and bolted together - no folding tabs - with an exposed breaker in fuse clips, and, on the electrical posts, proper knurled finger-nuts, big ones. The smaller units were box shaped, the module cabinets had a proper sloping faceplate. But the great part is the throttle lever. Who can feel like he's controlling a massive 4-8-4 or an A-B-B-A lashup of Alco PAs by twiddling a little radio tuning knob? Pushing + and - buttons? Give-me-a-break!  But with a massive, manly lever with twelve full inches of throw, you are right there, one with the machine. It won't even move for you, unless you are wearing your striped engineer's cap and bandanna. Goggles around the neck wouldn't hurt either. And as you move it, the slider on the six-inches of semicircular rheostat growls to let you know it's working. Furthermore, it can be mounted on its side, if you want a correct horizontal pull-to-you/push-away throttle motion.  If Casey Jones is running model trains up in Railroad Heaven, he's doing it  with a Marn-o-Stat throttle lever. -- D -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22263	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

On 3/21/2014 6:27 PM, louis niederlander wrote: Marnold was a rheostat, sometimes with a series load compensator (read:  fixed resistor). The only transformer I know of that was a variac was the Right of Way Industries model 2020, a 400 watt unit that ran 3 rail AC trains.  I know that for sure because I designed it.   Marnold made quite an excellent machine; i have a few.  I especially like the comments below about model railroaders with engineer caps and pipes.  I just had this discussion [about pipes] with a fellow collector.   Regards,   Louis N   I haven't had a cigarette in over a week.  I was thinking of taking up my pipe again, maybe I should :-) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22264	From: Garry Spear	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Lionel, American Flyer, and other American toy train speed controls were variacs.  Until solid state control systems were introduced. Garry Spear On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:27 PM, louis niederlander <l_niederlander@...> wrote:   Marnold was a rheostat, sometimes with a series load compensator (read:  fixed resistor). The only transformer I know of that was a variac was the Right of Way Industries model 2020, a 400 watt unit that ran 3 rail AC trains.  I know that for sure because I designed it.   Marnold made quite an excellent machine; i have a few.  I especially like the comments below about model railroaders with engineer caps and pipes.  I just had this discussion [about pipes] with a fellow collector.   Regards,   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: bayerw2@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 12:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat Somewhere, somehow, I got the idea that the Marn-O-Stat throttle was NOT a rheostat, but rather a variac. Well, if it isn't [wasn't] the Marn-O-Stat that utilized a variac, which vintage throttle did? On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:42 PM, <dnhelber@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from dnhelber@... included below] My favorite comment on the Marn-o-Stat was made on a different forum - Those impressive Marnold controls on a big centralized control panel made a model railroader look like he meant business.  Give that man a pipe, a "Model Railroading is Fun" engineers hat, a yard filled with cars equipped with Mantua or Baker couplers, and some shredded asbestos scenery -- all lit up with as many as three 75 watt bulbs dangling from the rafters -- and you were all set to be a cover boy for MR back in the 1950s.  Might as well throw in a photo of what we're talking about, though it hardly does justice to the Marnold system's true magnificence.    The system was built in modules that could be mixed and matched. Left to right in the picture, you have a power module containing the crushingly muscular transformer and rectifier, the famed Marn-o-Stat throttle lever, a big reversing lever-switch, a master on-off toggle and a load compensator lever; next there's a metering module with ammeter and voltmeter; then a second cab module with throttle and smaller controls. There were other modules available for monitor lights, remote turnout throws, block controls, etc. The modules are big (faces about 7"x7"), with a faux-hammered enamel finish that holds like an assault team of leeches. They're screwed and bolted together - no folding tabs - with an exposed breaker in fuse clips, and, on the electrical posts, proper knurled finger-nuts, big ones. The smaller units were box shaped, the module cabinets had a proper sloping faceplate. But the great part is the throttle lever. Who can feel like he's controlling a massive 4-8-4 or an A-B-B-A lashup of Alco PAs by twiddling a little radio tuning knob? Pushing + and - buttons? Give-me-a-break!  But with a massive, manly lever with twelve full inches of throw, you are right there, one with the machine. It won't even move for you, unless you are wearing your striped engineer's cap and bandanna. Goggles around the neck wouldn't hurt either. And as you move it, the slider on the six-inches of semicircular rheostat growls to let you know it's working. Furthermore, it can be mounted on its side, if you want a correct horizontal pull-to-you/push-away throttle motion.  If Casey Jones is running model trains up in Railroad Heaven, he's doing it  with a Marn-o-Stat throttle lever. -- D -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22265	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

The toy train transformers were not variacs.  Variac is actually a trade name for a variable auto-transformer.  It has a single winding.  Toy train transformers have a primary and secondary winding with a wiper on the secondary.    Variacs were used to change the ac voltage value delivered to the input of a step down transformer. And as far as the solid state systems go, I've designed some of those, too.  That involves phase-firing a triac; beyond the discussions here.   Back to the Marnold; I found some old instruction sheets.  They could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat).   Regards,   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: garrettspear@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 19:50:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat Lionel, American Flyer, and other American toy train speed controls were variacs.  Until solid state control systems were introduced. Garry Spear On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:27 PM, louis niederlander <l_niederlander@...> wrote:   Marnold was a rheostat, sometimes with a series load compensator (read:  fixed resistor). The only transformer I know of that was a variac was the Right of Way Industries model 2020, a 400 watt unit that ran 3 rail AC trains.  I know that for sure because I designed it.   Marnold made quite an excellent machine; i have a few.  I especially like the comments below about model railroaders with engineer caps and pipes.  I just had this discussion [about pipes] with a fellow collector.   Regards,   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: bayerw2@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 12:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat Somewhere, somehow, I got the idea that the Marn-O-Stat throttle was NOT a rheostat, but rather a variac. Well, if it isn't [wasn't] the Marn-O-Stat that utilized a variac, which vintage throttle did? On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:42 PM, <dnhelber@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from dnhelber@... included below] My favorite comment on the Marn-o-Stat was made on a different forum - Those impressive Marnold controls on a big centralized control panel made a model railroader look like he meant business.  Give that man a pipe, a "Model Railroading is Fun" engineers hat, a yard filled with cars equipped with Mantua or Baker couplers, and some shredded asbestos scenery -- all lit up with as many as three 75 watt bulbs dangling from the rafters -- and you were all set to be a cover boy for MR back in the 1950s.  Might as well throw in a photo of what we're talking about, though it hardly does justice to the Marnold system's true magnificence.    The system was built in modules that could be mixed and matched. Left to right in the picture, you have a power module containing the crushingly muscular transformer and rectifier, the famed Marn-o-Stat throttle lever, a big reversing lever-switch, a master on-off toggle and a load compensator lever; next there's a metering module with ammeter and voltmeter; then a second cab module with throttle and smaller controls. There were other modules available for monitor lights, remote turnout throws, block controls, etc. The modules are big (faces about 7"x7"), with a faux-hammered enamel finish that holds like an assault team of leeches. They're screwed and bolted together - no folding tabs - with an exposed breaker in fuse clips, and, on the electrical posts, proper knurled finger-nuts, big ones. The smaller units were box shaped, the module cabinets had a proper sloping faceplate. But the great part is the throttle lever. Who can feel like he's controlling a massive 4-8-4 or an A-B-B-A lashup of Alco PAs by twiddling a little radio tuning knob? Pushing + and - buttons? Give-me-a-break!  But with a massive, manly lever with twelve full inches of throw, you are right there, one with the machine. It won't even move for you, unless you are wearing your striped engineer's cap and bandanna. Goggles around the neck wouldn't hurt either. And as you move it, the slider on the six-inches of semicircular rheostat growls to let you know it's working. Furthermore, it can be mounted on its side, if you want a correct horizontal pull-to-you/push-away throttle motion.  If Casey Jones is running model trains up in Railroad Heaven, he's doing it  with a Marn-o-Stat throttle lever. -- D -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22266	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

I found an old copy of "How to Wire your Model Railroad" by Kalmbach.  Sure enough, on the cover there is a guy with an engineer's cap and a pipe.   A little off topic but some of the better pipe tobacco blends have been rendered unavailable due the the fact that some of the better ingredients came from Afghanistan.  In Cleveland we had Bessai Pipe Shop for years; now all of the good blends are gone.   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: don.dellmann@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 18:42:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat On 3/21/2014 6:27 PM, louis niederlander wrote: Marnold was a rheostat, sometimes with a series load compensator (read:  fixed resistor). The only transformer I know of that was a variac was the Right of Way Industries model 2020, a 400 watt unit that ran 3 rail AC trains.  I know that for sure because I designed it.   Marnold made quite an excellent machine; i have a few.  I especially like the comments below about model railroaders with engineer caps and pipes.  I just had this discussion [about pipes] with a fellow collector.   Regards,   Louis N   I haven't had a cigarette in over a week.  I was thinking of taking up my pipe again, maybe I should :-) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22267	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Attachments : Hey Guys,  Here's the Athearn Locomotive that started it all for Irv. Two MIB model "1A"'s! The Globe shell on his "Hi-F" chassis. These were some of the first additions to my Yellow Box collection. I would assume that these came with the red cardstock inserts in the box, but I made some inserts that mimic the later style just to protect them from damage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22268	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

On 22/03/14 1:39, dnhelber@... wrote: > Doug, I can't find you in the members list to send a private email. I think you should be able to reach the pictures at these URLs: > > > MARNOLD MODULES > https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/12104862/or/1615201382/name/Marnostat1.o.gif https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/12104862/or/1615201382/name/Marnostat1.o.gif > > > > MARN-O-STAT > https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/12104862/or/2122163786/name/Marnostat-rheo.o.jpg https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/12104862/or/2122163786/name/Marnostat-rheo.o.jpg > -- David Hi David. My email address should be in the grey 'From/Subject/To' Tool Bar at the top of this posting.. Anyway, it's: digbee @ clear.net.nz (Remove the spaces around '@'). None of your links work for me. I don't see any apparent errors, even splitting them in the middle, but each one gives a 404 message.. Sorry.. Hint for ebay buyers: I write my email address backwards also using 'ta' to send to sellers I wish to talk turkey with - totally fools ebay's algorithm-seeking anti-outside-buyer-you must give-us-your-money software.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22269	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

But then you’d have to get a 1984 Volvo and wear a tam.  A tweed sports coat with leather elbow patches would be nice also.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat     On 3/21/2014 6:27 PM, louis niederlander wrote: Marnold was a rheostat, sometimes with a series load compensator (read:  fixed resistor). The only transformer I know of that was a variac was the Right of Way Industries model 2020, a 400 watt unit that ran 3 rail AC trains.  I know that for sure because I designed it.   Marnold made quite an excellent machine; i have a few.  I especially like the comments below about model railroaders with engineer caps and pipes.  I just had this discussion [about pipes] with a fellow collector.   Regards,   Louis N     I haven't had a cigarette in over a week.  I was thinking of taking up my pipe again, maybe I should :-) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22270	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

On 22/03/14 4:43, Don Dellmann wrote: > On 3/21/2014 9:06 AM, tehachapikid@... wrote: > As far as photo attachments not going through with your messages, that's > not Yahoo. That's a problem with either your ISP or your own email > program. I know I have a problem often with Thunderbird not liking > attachments. > > Don > Listowner I have the same problem with a number of these groups, too. Most attachments come through perfectly, quite a few don't. Haven't figured it yet.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22271	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Hmmmm,   Seems to me that Athearn had F7’s with gear drives before Irv introduced the Hi-F drives. While I agree that the F7’s did much to establish Athearn as a major HO producer after WWII, and that the Globe F7 evolved into the Athearn unit, Hi-F was a later, price reduction event.   Nice set though …..   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tehachapikid@... Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 9:02 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     Hey Guys,  Here's the Athearn Locomotive that started it all for Irv. Two MIB model "1A"'s! The Globe shell on his "Hi-F" chassis. These were some of the first additions to my Yellow Box collection. I would assume that these came with the red cardstock inserts in the box, but I made some inserts that mimic the later style just to protect them from damage.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22272	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Attachments : It’s not fair Louis, that you have actual technical  knowledge of this technology, while the rest of us  wander around in conjecture. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of louis niederlander Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 8:22 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat     The toy train transformers were not variacs.  Variac is actually a trade name for a variable auto-transformer.  It has a single winding.  Toy train transformers have a primary and secondary winding with a wiper on the secondary.    Variacs were used to change the ac voltage value delivered to the input of a step down transformer. And as far as the solid state systems go, I've designed some of those, too.  That involves phase-firing a triac; beyond the discussions here.   Back to the Marnold; I found some old instruction sheets.  They could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat).   Regards,   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: garrettspear@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 19:50:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat Lionel, American Flyer, and other American toy train speed controls were variacs.  Until solid state control systems were introduced.   Garry Spear   On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:27 PM, louis niederlander <l_niederlander@...> wrote:   Marnold was a rheostat, sometimes with a series load compensator (read:  fixed resistor). The only transformer I know of that was a variac was the Right of Way Industries model 2020, a 400 watt unit that ran 3 rail AC trains.  I know that for sure because I designed it.   Marnold made quite an excellent machine; i have a few.  I especially like the comments below about model railroaders with engineer caps and pipes.  I just had this discussion [about pipes] with a fellow collector.   Regards,   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: bayerw2@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 12:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat Somewhere, somehow, I got the idea that the Marn-O-Stat throttle was NOT a rheostat, but rather a variac. Well, if it isn't [wasn't] the Marn-O-Stat that utilized a variac, which vintage throttle did?   On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:42 PM, <dnhelber@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from dnhelber@... included below] My favorite comment on the Marn-o-Stat was made on a different forum - Those impressive Marnold controls on a big centralized control panel made a model railroader look like he meant business.  Give that man a pipe, a "Model Railroading is Fun" engineers hat, a yard filled with cars equipped with Mantua or Baker couplers, and some shredded asbestos scenery -- all lit up with as many as three 75 watt bulbs dangling from the rafters -- and you were all set to be a cover boy for MR back in the 1950s.  Might as well throw in a photo of what we're talking about, though it hardly does justice to the Marnold system's true magnificence.    The system was built in modules that could be mixed and matched. Left to right in the picture, you have a power module containing the crushingly muscular transformer and rectifier, the famed Marn-o-Stat throttle lever, a big reversing lever-switch, a master on-off toggle and a load compensator lever; next there's a metering module with ammeter and voltmeter; then a second cab module with throttle and smaller controls. There were other modules available for monitor lights, remote turnout throws, block controls, etc. The modules are big (faces about 7"x7"), with a faux-hammered enamel finish that holds like an assault team of leeches. They're screwed and bolted together - no folding tabs - with an exposed breaker in fuse clips, and, on the electrical posts, proper knurled finger-nuts, big ones. The smaller units were box shaped, the module cabinets had a proper sloping faceplate. But the great part is the throttle lever. Who can feel like he's controlling a massive 4-8-4 or an A-B-B-A lashup of Alco PAs by twiddling a little radio tuning knob? Pushing + and - buttons? Give-me-a-break!  But with a massive, manly lever with twelve full inches of throw, you are right there, one with the machine. It won't even move for you, unless you are wearing your striped engineer's cap and bandanna. Goggles around the neck wouldn't hurt either. And as you move it, the slider on the six-inches of semicircular rheostat growls to let you know it's working. Furthermore, it can be mounted on its side, if you want a correct horizontal pull-to-you/push-away throttle motion.  If Casey Jones is running model trains up in Railroad Heaven, he's doing it  with a Marn-o-Stat throttle lever. -- D         -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22273	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Attachments : Hi John, You must be referring to these variety of drives, The "Single-Drive & Dual-Drive" chassis'. It was my understanding that these were Globe manufactured drives. There seems to be some sort of grey area regarding this topic. Greenberg's Guide Page 73 states that the Hi-F was the first mechanism actually sold under the Athearn name, as the gear drives were advertised as "Globe Models-An Athearn Quality Product". The only place that I've seen the gear drives advertised in an Athearn catalog, as drive units only, is in the 1957 issue under Accessories and Miscellaneous. That's why the boxed kit I've pictured is a curiosity to me, and I've got some boxed SP examples too! I've got close to 30 examples of these locomotive drives, single and dual drive, in both F-7 and GP-9 versions, and I love 'em! The numbering system, example: AP-311 for the pictured kit, is a curiosity also! Please, feel free to shed some light on this! I'm always wanting to learn more about the early Athearns! Thanks, Van.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22274	From: herb1013	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Attachments : Maybe these pictures will help. My first F7s back in the 40s were Hi-F drive. My father started me on HO in the late 30s. We had O-27 for around the Christmas tree. Then used a 4 by 8 for HO. Herb Flavell   From: tehachapikid@... Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     Hi John, Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (17) .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22275	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/21/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

John, it just occurred to me! The kit numbers on the Athearn Yellow Boxes w/Globe drives are "Globe" kit numbers! Irv owned Globe by this time, so you never know what he was up to in the process of combining the two lines into one!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22276	From: Brad Smith	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

I have the Globe body on Hi-F chassis in the earliest Athearn New Haven scheme. Had to assemble the horns and glue the black unpainted number boards to the nose. As I can remember, the box insert was white. The engine is in my display case.   This earliest scheme had a black rectangle on the side, that was eliminated in later production.  Brad Smith Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Mar 21, 2014, at 9:01 PM, <tehachapikid@...> wrote:   Hey Guys,  Here's the Athearn Locomotive that started it all for Irv. Two MIB model "1A"'s! The Globe shell on his "Hi-F" chassis. These were some of the first additions to my Yellow Box collection. I would assume that these came with the red cardstock inserts in the box, but I made some inserts that mimic the later style just to protect them from damage.   <VBC_Image28.jpg> <VBC_Image29.jpg>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22277	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Actually Van,   You may be the rightest on this. I never bothered to separate the Globe/Athearn from the Athearn/Athearn in my mind. Once Athearn purchased Globe they were all Athearn to me.   That said, by searching the MR DVD set the first mention of Athearn’s Hi-F drive I came across was Athearn’s ad in December of 1956 (attached). Note that it still lists the F7 as a Globe loco and that I also indicates that the Hi-F drive was new. In the same issue is MR’s report on the “new” drive system using the same “exquisite” castings marketed by Athearn for two years. This jives with my memory of the introduction of the Hi-F drive as I was well into my hanging around at the local hobbyshop years when the very protracted discussions of the rubber band drives took place.   Back in 1953 there was a small Athearn ad stating that Athearn is the builder of Globe products.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tehachapikid@... Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:48 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     Hi John, You must be referring to these variety of drives, The "Single-Drive & Dual-Drive" chassis'. It was my understanding that these were Globe manufactured drives. There seems to be some sort of grey area regarding this topic. Greenberg's Guide Page 73 states that the Hi-F was the first mechanism actually sold under the Athearn name, as the gear drives were advertised as "Globe Models-An Athearn Quality Product". The only place that I've seen the gear drives advertised in an Athearn catalog, as drive units only, is in the 1957 issue under Accessories and Miscellaneous. That's why the boxed kit I've pictured is a curiosity to me, and I've got some boxed SP examples too! I've got close to 30 examples of these locomotive drives, single and dual drive, in both F-7 and GP-9 versions, and I love 'em! The numbering system, example: AP-311 for the pictured kit, is a curiosity also! Please, feel free to shed some light on this! I'm always wanting to learn more about the early Athearns! Thanks, Van.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22278	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

On 3/21/2014 9:06 AM, tehachapikid@... wrote: Pictures? What Pictures?!!! My attachments didn't go through again! I know there's a way of doing it, but Yahoo makes such as mess out of it! So done with Yahoo! ----------------------------- They didn't come through for me, either.  Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, but what's really frustrating is going to the Yahoo groups site and not seeing them in the message list.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22279	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Attachments : Don’t look too closely on my last post for that attachment as, of course, I FORGOT to attach it. Remembering stuff that occurred 60 years ago is no problem but 60 seconds …….   Here it is.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:28 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     Actually Van,   You may be the rightest on this. I never bothered to separate the Globe/Athearn from the Athearn/Athearn in my mind. Once Athearn purchased Globe they were all Athearn to me.   That said, by searching the MR DVD set the first mention of Athearn’s Hi-F drive I came across was Athearn’s ad in December of 1956 (attached). Note that it still lists the F7 as a Globe loco and that I also indicates that the Hi-F drive was new. In the same issue is MR’s report on the “new” drive system using the same “exquisite” castings marketed by Athearn for two years. This jives with my memory of the introduction of the Hi-F drive as I was well into my hanging around at the local hobbyshop years when the very protracted discussions of the rubber band drives took place.   Back in 1953 there was a small Athearn ad stating that Athearn is the builder of Globe products.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tehachapikid@... Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 10:48 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     Hi John, You must be referring to these variety of drives, The "Single-Drive & Dual-Drive" chassis'. It was my understanding that these were Globe manufactured drives. There seems to be some sort of grey area regarding this topic. Greenberg's Guide Page 73 states that the Hi-F was the first mechanism actually sold under the Athearn name, as the gear drives were advertised as "Globe Models-An Athearn Quality Product". The only place that I've seen the gear drives advertised in an Athearn catalog, as drive units only, is in the 1957 issue under Accessories and Miscellaneous. That's why the boxed kit I've pictured is a curiosity to me, and I've got some boxed SP examples too! I've got close to 30 examples of these locomotive drives, single and dual drive, in both F-7 and GP-9 versions, and I love 'em! The numbering system, example: AP-311 for the pictured kit, is a curiosity also! Please, feel free to shed some light on this! I'm always wanting to learn more about the early Athearns! Thanks, Van.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22280	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22281	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Thanks, Lou. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 7:27 PM, louis niederlander <l_niederlander@...> wrote:   Marnold was a rheostat, sometimes with a series load compensator (read:  fixed resistor). The only transformer I know of that was a variac was the Right of Way Industries model 2020, a 400 watt unit that ran 3 rail AC trains.  I know that for sure because I designed it.   Marnold made quite an excellent machine; i have a few.  I especially like the comments below about model railroaders with engineer caps and pipes.  I just had this discussion [about pipes] with a fellow collector.   Regards,   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: bayerw2@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 12:09:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat Somewhere, somehow, I got the idea that the Marn-O-Stat throttle was NOT a rheostat, but rather a variac. Well, if it isn't [wasn't] the Marn-O-Stat that utilized a variac, which vintage throttle did? On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:42 PM, <dnhelber@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from dnhelber@... included below] My favorite comment on the Marn-o-Stat was made on a different forum - Those impressive Marnold controls on a big centralized control panel made a model railroader look like he meant business.  Give that man a pipe, a "Model Railroading is Fun" engineers hat, a yard filled with cars equipped with Mantua or Baker couplers, and some shredded asbestos scenery -- all lit up with as many as three 75 watt bulbs dangling from the rafters -- and you were all set to be a cover boy for MR back in the 1950s.  Might as well throw in a photo of what we're talking about, though it hardly does justice to the Marnold system's true magnificence.    The system was built in modules that could be mixed and matched. Left to right in the picture, you have a power module containing the crushingly muscular transformer and rectifier, the famed Marn-o-Stat throttle lever, a big reversing lever-switch, a master on-off toggle and a load compensator lever; next there's a metering module with ammeter and voltmeter; then a second cab module with throttle and smaller controls. There were other modules available for monitor lights, remote turnout throws, block controls, etc. The modules are big (faces about 7"x7"), with a faux-hammered enamel finish that holds like an assault team of leeches. They're screwed and bolted together - no folding tabs - with an exposed breaker in fuse clips, and, on the electrical posts, proper knurled finger-nuts, big ones. The smaller units were box shaped, the module cabinets had a proper sloping faceplate. But the great part is the throttle lever. Who can feel like he's controlling a massive 4-8-4 or an A-B-B-A lashup of Alco PAs by twiddling a little radio tuning knob? Pushing + and - buttons? Give-me-a-break!  But with a massive, manly lever with twelve full inches of throw, you are right there, one with the machine. It won't even move for you, unless you are wearing your striped engineer's cap and bandanna. Goggles around the neck wouldn't hurt either. And as you move it, the slider on the six-inches of semicircular rheostat growls to let you know it's working. Furthermore, it can be mounted on its side, if you want a correct horizontal pull-to-you/push-away throttle motion.  If Casey Jones is running model trains up in Railroad Heaven, he's doing it  with a Marn-o-Stat throttle lever. -- D -- Regards, Walter -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22282	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

 Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22283	From: 23weldon	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

All the old Lionel transformers used variacs for speed control.  Back in 1951 when I sold off my Lionel trainset to buy HO equipment I kept the 2 circuit transformer and added a 4 Amp capacity dual rectifier, a DPDT reversing switch, Pitman ammeter and voltmeter and a circuit breaker, and built the whole thing into a crude wooden box.  Later I added an off-on switch to the bridge to have pulse power available. Reflecting on this I think start and stop operation would have been generally better if the speed control had been a rheostat since the initial power surge with a rheostat is at full 12 volts until the current builds up.  Better to break through dirty rail contact.  But both my locos, the Varney Dockside and the Lindsay Stubby were pretty smooth runners.  The other problem with the cheaper Lionel transformer was that the stiffness of the speed control with a fairly small diameter knob.  A Marnostat would have been very nice; but the cost as much as a half a dozen good freight car kits.  So that was an easy decision for a kid with dreams of empire.  Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22284	From: willard seehorn	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

I always thought it was Heck, It's -- Fast, Incredable! Willard -----Original Message----- From: ckinzer@... Sent: Mar 22, 2014 11:01 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please  Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22285	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

High Five??????   Never had a clue as to why Hi-F. I do recall that many had the habit of calling it “Hi-Fi”, including myself until the hobby shop owner informed me I was wrong. Chuck, if I am remembering correctly, owned the hobbyshop along with Mrs. Chuck (no clue as I her first name), both local school teachers and both very pleasant people. When he told me they buying a VW I thought he was nuts until I learned he was getting a van, not a Beetle.   They had the shop for several years in Appleton, WI., first on Wisconsin Ave. then moving to College Ave. right in the main retail shops area. Anyone recall more information on them and/or the name of the store please let me know. I feel I should recall more about them as I spent countless hours with them at the shop and they actually let me.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ckinzer@... Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:01 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please      Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (25) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22286	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Mybe they were on College Ave. first and then Wisconsin Ave. The Wisconsin Ave. store was quite a bit larger as I recall.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:30 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     High Five??????   Never had a clue as to why Hi-F. I do recall that many had the habit of calling it “Hi-Fi”, including myself until the hobby shop owner informed me I was wrong. Chuck, if I am remembering correctly, owned the hobbyshop along with Mrs. Chuck (no clue as I her first name), both local school teachers and both very pleasant people. When he told me they buying a VW I thought he was nuts until I learned he was getting a van, not a Beetle.   They had the shop for several years in Appleton, WI., first on Wisconsin Ave. then moving to College Ave. right in the main retail shops area. Anyone recall more information on them and/or the name of the store please let me know. I feel I should recall more about them as I spent countless hours with them at the shop and they actually let me.   John Hagen   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (25) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22287	From: david_helber	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Rheostat vs. Variac

Rheostat vs. Variac I'm sure this has been covered before, but technically, what is the difference between a rheostat, a potentiometer, and a variable transformer (e.g. Variac)? I thought I'd start a separate thread rather than let this subject hijack the Sal Met Soldering thread the way the Marn-O-Stat did. Long before DCC or most transistorized power packs, I used a variable transformer (Variac) in the AC 110-volt line as a throttle to control the input to the DC HO power pack. The advantage was better starting and low speed control.  A regular rheostat makes the loco start with a jerk and immediately run at faster than its minimum speed. This was because the rheostat's output voltage varies with current drawn. Starting a stopped motor armature draws more current than running at minimum speed. As soon as the rheo delivers enough voltage to get the motor starting, the resistance drops and up goes the voltage from the rheo, for the familiar DC "flying takeoff". By leaving the pack's rheostat set on high, and regulating the input voltage to the pack with the Variable Transformer, the loco would start smoothly and move away at its normal minimum speed. But why? Looking at the Variac, it just looks like a hefty rheostat. In the Sal Met/Marnold thread, Louis Niederlander says:  >The toy train transformers were not variacs.  Variac is actually a trade name for a variable auto-transformer.  It has a single winding.  Toy train transformers have a primary and secondary winding with a wiper on the secondary.  >Variacs were used to change the ac voltage value delivered to the input of a step down transformer.… >[Marn-O-Stats] could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat). So what is the difference - rheostat, Variac, potentiometer - and what are the advantages of each for the pre-DCC operator? -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22288	From: david_helber	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Louis says: >[Marn-O-Stats] could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat). I'm missing something. Doesn't a rheostat control voltage? I mean, voltage is what determines speed of the loco's motor, as long as there is enough amperage to keep it turning, right? - D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22289	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Lionel transformers were definitely not based on Variacs.   Variac is a trade name for probably the most noted manufacturer of what is called an "autotransformer".  An autotransformer has only a single winding which can have one tap, multiple taps, or a slider one exposed windings.  (Imagine it being like variable resistor, but for AC.)  This means that one of the input connections (110 VAC in our case) is common with one of the output connections.  This would be risky in a toy train "transformer" because if a plug got put in the wall backwards, the common output connection would be hot.   Instead, Lionel transformers had secondary windings which provide welcome safety as well as stepping down the voltage.  Fixed secondary windings were for the fixed AC voltage outputs such as for accessories.  A secondary winding that was exposed, for instance to a roller in a type ZW, provided the variable AC voltage.   Variacs, a round metal can looking thing with a big knob on top, can be handy for some things.  However, don't think that it provides isolation from the line voltage - it doesn't.  And you could certainly rectify the output of a Variac (or any autotransformer), but you still won't have isolation from the line and one side of your DC will be connected to one side of the AC line (hopefully the neutral - but don't bet your life on it).   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: 23weldon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:07 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat   All the old Lionel transformers used variacs for speed control.  Back in 1951 when I sold off my Lionel trainset to buy HO equipment I kept the 2 circuit transformer and added a 4 Amp capacity dual rectifier, a DPDT reversing switch, Pitman ammeter and voltmeter and a circuit breaker, and built the whole thing into a crude wooden box.  Later I added an off-on switch to the bridge to have pulse power available. Reflecting on this I think start and stop operation would have been generally better if the speed control had been a rheostat since the initial power surge with a rheostat is at full 12 volts until the current builds up.  Better to break through dirty rail contact.  But both my locos, the Varney Dockside and the Lindsay Stubby were pretty smooth runners.  The other problem with the cheaper Lionel transformer was that the stiffness of the speed control with a fairly small diameter knob.  A Marnostat would have been very nice; but the cost as much as a half a dozen good freight car kits.  So that was an easy decision for a kid with dreams of empire.  Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22290	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

I see I answered something already mostly answered before reading all  my emails.  Oh well.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat   Lionel transformers were definitely not based on Variacs.   Variac is a trade name for probably the most noted manufacturer of what is called an "autotransformer".  An autotransformer has only a single winding which can have one tap, multiple taps, or a slider one exposed windings.  (Imagine it being like variable resistor, but for AC.)  This means that one of the input connections (110 VAC in our case) is common with one of the output connections.  This would be risky in a toy train "transformer" because if a plug got put in the wall backwards, the common output connection would be hot.   Instead, Lionel transformers had secondary windings which provide welcome safety as well as stepping down the voltage.  Fixed secondary windings were for the fixed AC voltage outputs such as for accessories.  A secondary winding that was exposed, for instance to a roller in a type ZW, provided the variable AC voltage.   Variacs, a round metal can looking thing with a big knob on top, can be handy for some things.  However, don't think that it provides isolation from the line voltage - it doesn't.  And you could certainly rectify the output of a Variac (or any autotransformer), but you still won't have isolation from the line and one side of your DC will be connected to one side of the AC line (hopefully the neutral - but don't bet your life on it).   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: 23weldon To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:07 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat   All the old Lionel transformers used variacs for speed control.  Back in 1951 when I sold off my Lionel trainset to buy HO equipment I kept the 2 circuit transformer and added a 4 Amp capacity dual rectifier, a DPDT reversing switch, Pitman ammeter and voltmeter and a circuit breaker, and built the whole thing into a crude wooden box.  Later I added an off-on switch to the bridge to have pulse power available. Reflecting on this I think start and stop operation would have been generally better if the speed control had been a rheostat since the initial power surge with a rheostat is at full 12 volts until the current builds up.  Better to break through dirty rail contact.  But both my locos, the Varney Dockside and the Lindsay Stubby were pretty smooth runners.  The other problem with the cheaper Lionel transformer was that the stiffness of the speed control with a fairly small diameter knob.  A Marnostat would have been very nice; but the cost as much as a half a dozen good freight car kits.  So that was an easy decision for a kid with dreams of empire.  Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22291	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

 A rheostat can be used to control voltage or current.  There is a distinction.  Although, of course, voltage and current are both involved in each case.   Imagine if you tied the ends of the rheostat to each end of a battery.  Current will flow through the rheostat based on how many ohms it is.  But the wiper will have a voltage depending on where it is set.  This is the configuration for setting a voltage.  Of course, if a load is on it, the load will end up altering the voltage.   For the model railroad application, the rheostat is put in series with the motor.  One end of the rheostat is connected to anything.  So it is really just a variable resistor.  The more resistance, the less current.   The nominal resistance of the rheostat has to make sense versus the expected load.  Awhile ago, this might be a half amp motor or so.  With much more efficient motors, the old rheostats don't have enough resistance to prevent enough current flow for the newer motors to run pretty fast when set to supposedly "off".   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:10 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac   Louis says: >[Marn-O-Stats] could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat). I'm missing something. Doesn't a rheostat control voltage? I mean, voltage is what determines speed of the loco's motor, as long as there is enough amperage to keep it turning, right? - D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22292	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

 Correction:  "One if of the rheostat is NOT connected to anything for the current control mode.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac    A rheostat can be used to control voltage or current.  There is a distinction.  Although, of course, voltage and current are both involved in each case.   Imagine if you tied the ends of the rheostat to each end of a battery.  Current will flow through the rheostat based on how many ohms it is.  But the wiper will have a voltage depending on where it is set.  This is the configuration for setting a voltage.  Of course, if a load is on it, the load will end up altering the voltage.   For the model railroad application, the rheostat is put in series with the motor.  One end of the rheostat is connected to anything.  So it is really just a variable resistor.  The more resistance, the less current.   The nominal resistance of the rheostat has to make sense versus the expected load.  Awhile ago, this might be a half amp motor or so.  With much more efficient motors, the old rheostats don't have enough resistance to prevent enough current flow for the newer motors to run pretty fast when set to supposedly "off".   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:10 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac   Louis says: >[Marn-O-Stats] could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat). I'm missing something. Doesn't a rheostat control voltage? I mean, voltage is what determines speed of the loco's motor, as long as there is enough amperage to keep it turning, right? - D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22293	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

 Here is a link to a schematic for Lionel's biggest transformer (ZW) which had four variable controls and, per the schematic, all working off the same secondary winding.   http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/psvw1.pdf   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac    Correction:  "One if of the rheostat is NOT connected to anything for the current control mode.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac    A rheostat can be used to control voltage or current.  There is a distinction.  Although, of course, voltage and current are both involved in each case.   Imagine if you tied the ends of the rheostat to each end of a battery.  Current will flow through the rheostat based on how many ohms it is.  But the wiper will have a voltage depending on where it is set.  This is the configuration for setting a voltage.  Of course, if a load is on it, the load will end up altering the voltage.   For the model railroad application, the rheostat is put in series with the motor.  One end of the rheostat is connected to anything.  So it is really just a variable resistor.  The more resistance, the less current.   The nominal resistance of the rheostat has to make sense versus the expected load.  Awhile ago, this might be a half amp motor or so.  With much more efficient motors, the old rheostats don't have enough resistance to prevent enough current flow for the newer motors to run pretty fast when set to supposedly "off".   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:10 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac   Louis says: >[Marn-O-Stats] could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat). I'm missing something. Doesn't a rheostat control voltage? I mean, voltage is what determines speed of the loco's motor, as long as there is enough amperage to keep it turning, right? - D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22294	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Hi-F was how Athearn called rubber band drive, if memory serves correctly. John B. Allyn From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:01:24 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please    Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22295	From: trainliker	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

 Yes.  But why "Hi-F"?  Did the letters stand for anything, such as "HI FI" for High Fidelity (which I found slightly confusing with "Hi-F" at the time).   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: john.allyn@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Hi-F was how Athearn called rubber band drive, if memory serves correctly. John B. Allyn From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:01:24 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please    Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22296	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

On the topic of the by the way...... I had visions of the East Coast 'f' type cabbed streamlined electrics that ran out East. Those have the sort of exaggerated low cab windows that the Lionel F units remind me of. Perhaps they influenced the East Coast based designers of the Lionel F units? I think those were New Haven electrics. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:01 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:  Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22297	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...

While there's the chance that Lionel may have designed their F-3 unit cab windows after the New Haven's electrics, I don't know why they would.  I think that they just got it wrong.  New Haven's streamlined EP-4's and EP-5's were built by GE, not EMD as the F units were.  There doesn't seem to be a reason why Lionel would want to use an entirely different prototype locomotive manufacturer's cab window styling for their EMD cab units (first produced in 1948) when so many prototype railroads already had GM EMC FT's and EMD F-3's in use as early as 1945 and 1946 respectively.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/22/2014 4:32:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   On the topic of the by the way...... I had visions of the East Coast 'f' type cabbed streamlined electrics that ran out East. Those have the sort of exaggerated low cab windows that the Lionel F units remind me of. Perhaps they influenced the East Coast based designers of the Lionel F units? I think those were New Haven electrics. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:01 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:  Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22298	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...

It would have been merely influenced by seeing them often enough to think of those lines as being correct.   Or the hangover from the previous all-night Martini party causing them to be a bit careless.....  Somehow they don't seem to have done the tooling while working in front of a wall loaded with pictures and blueprints of the EMD F units. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:06 PM, eriepacific@... wrote: While there's the chance that Lionel may have designed their F-3 unit cab windows after the New Haven's electrics, I don't know why they would.  I think that they just got it wrong.  New Haven's streamlined EP-4's and EP-5's were built by GE, not EMD as the F units were.  There doesn't seem to be a reason why Lionel would want to use an entirely different prototype locomotive manufacturer's cab window styling for their EMD cab units (first produced in 1948) when so many prototype railroads already had GM EMC FT's and EMD F-3's in use as early as 1945 and 1946 respectively.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/22/2014 4:32:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   On the topic of the by the way...... I had visions of the East Coast 'f' type cabbed streamlined electrics that ran out East. Those have the sort of exaggerated low cab windows that the Lionel F units remind me of. Perhaps they influenced the East Coast based designers of the Lionel F units? I think those were New Haven electrics. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:01 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:  Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22299	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Attachments : WOW, Herb!  Quite a stash. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of herb1013@... Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:11 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     Maybe these pictures will help. My first F7s back in the 40s were Hi-F drive. My father started me on HO in the late 30s. We had O-27 for around the Christmas tree. Then used a 4 by 8 for HO. Herb Flavell   From: tehachapikid@... Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:47 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     Hi John, Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (17) .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22300	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...

On 3/22/2014 5:15 PM, Mike Bauers wrote: It would have been merely influenced by seeing them often enough to think of those lines as being correct.   Or the hangover from the previous all-night Martini party causing them to be a bit careless.....  Somehow they don't seem to have done the tooling while working in front of a wall loaded with pictures and blueprints of the EMD F units. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:06 PM, eriepacific@... wrote: While there's the chance that Lionel may have designed their F-3 unit cab windows after the New Haven's electrics, I don't know why they would.  I think that they just got it wrong.  New Haven's streamlined EP-4's and EP-5's were built by GE, not EMD as the F units were.  There doesn't seem to be a reason why Lionel would want to use an entirely different prototype locomotive manufacturer's cab window styling for their EMD cab units (first produced in 1948) when so many prototype railroads already had GM EMC FT's and EMD F-3's in use as early as 1945 and 1946 respectively.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/22/2014 4:32:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   On the topic of the by the way...... I had visions of the East Coast 'f' type cabbed streamlined electrics that ran out East. Those have the sort of exaggerated low cab windows that the Lionel F units remind me of. Perhaps they influenced the East Coast based designers of the Lionel F units? I think those were New Haven electrics. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone However the Santa Fe DID pay the biggest cost of the tooling, so I'd think they'd want to get it reasonably right.  (New York Central kicked in some money too, but not as much, that's why so many more Santa Fe's were made, and why it was featured in the catalogs and advertising., A far cry from today when the railroads are demanding the modeler's PAY for the right to advertise the railroad) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22301	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...

Ya got these points right, especially the 2nd one !  Good point on them appearing not to have pics of the EMD F's in front of them when making the dies.   Ray F. W.     In a message dated 3/22/2014 5:15:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   It would have been merely influenced by seeing them often enough to think of those lines as being correct.   Or the hangover from the previous all-night Martini party causing them to be a bit careless.....  Somehow they don't seem to have done the tooling while working in front of a wall loaded with pictures and blueprints of the EMD F units. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:06 PM, eriepacific@... wrote: While there's the chance that Lionel may have designed their F-3 unit cab windows after the New Haven's electrics, I don't know why they would.  I think that they just got it wrong.  New Haven's streamlined EP-4's and EP-5's were built by GE, not EMD as the F units were.  There doesn't seem to be a reason why Lionel would want to use an entirely different prototype locomotive manufacturer's cab window styling for their EMD cab units (first produced in 1948) when so many prototype railroads already had GM EMC FT's and EMD F-3's in use as early as 1945 and 1946 respectively.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/22/2014 4:32:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   On the topic of the by the way...... I had visions of the East Coast 'f' type cabbed streamlined electrics that ran out East. Those have the sort of exaggerated low cab windows that the Lionel F units remind me of. Perhaps they influenced the East Coast based designers of the Lionel F units? I think those were New Haven electrics. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 10:01 AM, <ckinzer@...> wrote:  Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22302	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Attachments :   Try this:  respond to the yahoo email, as you would any other.  Attach your pics by clicking on “Insert” and click on “Attach File”, then I can get into my picture library,    OR  attach you’re pics to your yahoo response just as you would any other email you are sending. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alpvalsys@... Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:28 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     On 3/21/2014 9:06 AM, tehachapikid@... wrote: Pictures? What Pictures?!!! My attachments didn't go through again! I know there's a way of doing it, but Yahoo makes such as mess out of it! So done with Yahoo! ----------------------------- They didn't come through for me, either.  Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, but what's really frustrating is going to the Yahoo groups site and not seeing them in the message list.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22303	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

A "Variac" or variable transformer controls output voltage, and does not depend on current or resistance in the circuit.  A power supply using a variac can control any motor that we encounter in model trains, not just older open motors. I build my own power supplies using small, panel mount variacs installed in an aluminum box or enclosure.  This type of power supply is extremely simple.  The typical small unit is rated at 1.75 - 2.5 amps.  It can be wired to provide 0-120 or 0-132 volts.  This output is connected to a step-down transformer, usually an older 12.6 volt electronics type.  Next a full wave rectifer from Radio Shack(3-25 amps) is wired across the 12.6 volts.  Then a DPDT reversing switch.  That is it.  No other parts than a line cord in and 2 posts for output. The disadvantage is that transformers cost money.  Look at Ebay seller: hi-techstufff.  A 1.75 amp panel mount Staco transformer is $79.62.  So if you want to do this cheaply, you have to wait for a second hand Ebay sale. I am not concerned with the cost.  I view it as a lifetime power supply(currently using something maybe 40 years old).  I can smoothly run anything on the model railroad, from US Hobbies O gauge to modern Faulhaber can motors.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22304	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

No, a rheostat controls current.  Variable resistors come as rheostats (two connections, the wiper and one end of the resistor) and potentiometers (three connections, a wiper and each end of the resistor).  The flaw in the discussion below is when it is stated to take each end of a rheostat and connect it to a battery...there is only one end and a wiper, hence if you do make those connections, you have a potentiometer and you are controlling voltage.   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: ckinzer@... Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:43:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac  Here is a link to a schematic for Lionel's biggest transformer (ZW) which had four variable controls and, per the schematic, all working off the same secondary winding.   http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/psvw1.pdf   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac    Correction:  "One if of the rheostat is NOT connected to anything for the current control mode.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac    A rheostat can be used to control voltage or current.  There is a distinction.  Although, of course, voltage and current are both involved in each case.   Imagine if you tied the ends of the rheostat to each end of a battery.  Current will flow through the rheostat based on how many ohms it is.  But the wiper will have a voltage depending on where it is set.  This is the configuration for setting a voltage.  Of course, if a load is on it, the load will end up altering the voltage.   For the model railroad application, the rheostat is put in series with the motor.  One end of the rheostat is connected to anything.  So it is really just a variable resistor.  The more resistance, the less current.   The nominal resistance of the rheostat has to make sense versus the expected load.  Awhile ago, this might be a half amp motor or so.  With much more efficient motors, the old rheostats don't have enough resistance to prevent enough current flow for the newer motors to run pretty fast when set to supposedly "off".   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:10 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac   Louis says: >[Marn-O-Stats] could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat). I'm missing something. Doesn't a rheostat control voltage? I mean, voltage is what determines speed of the loco's motor, as long as there is enough amperage to keep it turning, right? - D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22305	From: willard seehorn	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Makes sense: Heck It's Fast! -----Original Message----- From: john.allyn@... Sent: Mar 22, 2014 2:58 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please Hi-F was how Athearn called rubber band drive, if memory serves correctly. John B. Allyn From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:01:24 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please    Does anybody know what "Hi-F" stood for.  Like was it "high friction" or something?  (Just a guess)   By the way, when I first started seeing the Athearn details I was just a kid who had played endlessly with Lionel Santa Fe F3's and I thought the Athearn's weren't right because the windshield windows looked much to high.  Of course, it was the Lionel where the windshield windows were much too low.  I'm not sure why Lionel made the roof lower.  Perhaps to fit better with the someone less than scale "O guage" cars, not to mention the "O-27" cars.  Since then, I also thought that as a little kid looking up at the noses of those bulldog EMD diesels, the angle makes the windows seem less high and maybe that's another reason that Lionel's sort of seemed right to me.  I still sort of like the look of the wrong Lionel as compared to the right of everyone else!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 6:39 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please   Brad, Id love to see that New Haven unit! I've got a three New Haven F-7 sets, two A-B's in the early white scheme and an A-B-A set in the later black scheme. The A-B-A set is all powered by the mid-60's vintage Athearn Gear Drive chassis'. The white scheme units are all Hi-F as yours is. But all my shells are the pure Athearn production varieties w/2 headlights and molded in number boards. I'm very curious as to the appearance of your very early example. I've got issues getting pictures off of the Yahoo site. Could you email me a pic of this unit? My email address is "tehachapikid@..." or join my Facebook group "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" and post there! Thanks Brad!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22306	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

I think you meant: One END of the rheostat is NOT connected to anything for the current control mode.   Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: ckinzer@... Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2014 10:39:50 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac  Correction:  "One if of the rheostat is NOT connected to anything for the current control mode.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac    A rheostat can be used to control voltage or current.  There is a distinction.  Although, of course, voltage and current are both involved in each case.   Imagine if you tied the ends of the rheostat to each end of a battery.  Current will flow through the rheostat based on how many ohms it is.  But the wiper will have a voltage depending on where it is set.  This is the configuration for setting a voltage.  Of course, if a load is on it, the load will end up altering the voltage.   For the model railroad application, the rheostat is put in series with the motor.  One end of the rheostat is connected to anything.  So it is really just a variable resistor.  The more resistance, the less current.   The nominal resistance of the rheostat has to make sense versus the expected load.  Awhile ago, this might be a half amp motor or so.  With much more efficient motors, the old rheostats don't have enough resistance to prevent enough current flow for the newer motors to run pretty fast when set to supposedly "off".   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 10:10 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac   Louis says: >[Marn-O-Stats] could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat). I'm missing something. Doesn't a rheostat control voltage? I mean, voltage is what determines speed of the loco's motor, as long as there is enough amperage to keep it turning, right? - D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22307	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

This old and wonderful power supply has generated a lot of interest and questions and brought alot of tech savy people out from our original discussions of Vintage Trains.   DId everybody's questions get answered satisfactorily?  I know electricity can be daunting to some folks.  I get a table at the local (Cleveland) TCA meet and sell off excess supplies of LED's but really spend most of my time answering electrical questions.    I really liked the comment that Marnold was the Rolls Royce of transformers.  From reading old ads it is my understanding that they were configurable to O scale loads and also to 3 rail AC.  Anyone ever see one running AC trains?   Regards,   Louis N

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22308	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Yes, the Marn-O-Stat has been the CURRENT topic of discussion and I wouldn’t want to SHORT it before it makes a complete CIRCUIT. So lets AMP it up folks.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of louis niederlander Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:25 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat     This old and wonderful power supply has generated a lot of interest and questions and brought alot of tech savy people out from our original discussions of Vintage Trains.   DId everybody's questions get answered satisfactorily?  I know electricity can be daunting to some folks.  I get a table at the local (Cleveland) TCA meet and sell off excess supplies of LED's but really spend most of my time answering electrical questions.    I really liked the comment that Marnold was the Rolls Royce of transformers.  From reading old ads it is my understanding that they were configurable to O scale loads and also to 3 rail AC.  Anyone ever see one running AC trains?   Regards,   Louis N

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22309	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: avanti78@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 22:23:57 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat It’s not fair Louis, that you have actual technical  knowledge of this technology, while the rest of us  wander around in conjecture. Denis   This technology is just what I do.  If you are so inclined, visit:  Valtronic.com and see some of the exciting projects we do. Louis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22310	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...

So...... It might be accurate that the model is more of an artistic impression than a strictly realistic version of a model. In many ways all Lionel products have some artistic liberties taken with them and it's very hard to find one that is truly a scale model. This may be the unifying Lionel touch to all of their models.... A bit of artistic exaggeration here and there. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:45 PM, Don Dellmann <don.dellmann@...> wrote: On 3/22/2014 5:15 PM, Mike Bauers wrote: It would have been merely influenced by seeing them often enough to think of those lines as being correct.   Or the hangover from the previous all-night Martini party causing them to be a bit careless.....  Somehow they don't seem to have done the tooling while working in front of a wall loaded with pictures and blueprints of the EMD F units. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:06 PM, eriepacific@... wrote: While there's the chance that Lionel may have designed their F-3 unit cab windows after the New Haven's electrics, I don't know why they would.  I think that they just got it wrong.  New Haven's streamlined EP-4's and EP-5's were built by GE, not EMD as the F units were.  There doesn't seem to be a reason why Lionel would want to use an entirely different prototype locomotive manufacturer's cab window styling for their EMD cab units (first produced in 1948) when so many prototype railroads already had GM EMC FT's and EMD F-3's in use as early as 1945 and 1946 respectively.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/22/2014 4:32:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   On the topic of the by the way...... I had visions of the East Coast 'f' type cabbed streamlined electrics that ran out East. Those have the sort of exaggerated low cab windows that the Lionel F units remind me of. Perhaps they influenced the East Coast based designers of the Lionel F units? I think those were New Haven electrics. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone However the Santa Fe DID pay the biggest cost of the tooling, so I'd think they'd want to get it reasonably right.  (New York Central kicked in some money too, but not as much, that's why so many more Santa Fe's were made, and why it was featured in the catalogs and advertising., A far cry from today when the railroads are demanding the modeler's PAY for the right to advertise the railroad) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22311	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

On 23/03/14 13:33, John Hagen wrote: > Yes, the Marn-O-Stat has been the CURRENT topic of discussion and I wouldn't > want to SHORT it before it makes a complete CIRCUIT. So lets AMP it up > folks. > John Hagen Or should we Discharge this?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22312	From: louis niederlander	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

During this thread I mentioned a conversation with a fellow collector about pipe smoking model railroaders.  Actually this discussion went much deeper.  My friend lived on City Island in the Bronx and made regular visits to the Lionel and American Flyer showrooms.  We also discussed appearal along with pipe smoking.   My friend said that the Lionel salesmen were all in well tailored suits and ran the trains fast because of magne traction.  The AF salesmen were all as described below; tweed sportcoats with leather patches.  They ran the trains slow and carefully (no magne traction).   Regards,   Louis N To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 21:10:42 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat But then you’d have to get a 1984 Volvo and wear a tam.  A tweed sports coat with leather elbow patches would be nice also.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Dellmann Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 6:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat     On 3/21/2014 6:27 PM, louis niederlander wrote: Marnold was a rheostat, sometimes with a series load compensator (read:  fixed resistor). The only transformer I know of that was a variac was the Right of Way Industries model 2020, a 400 watt unit that ran 3 rail AC trains.  I know that for sure because I designed it.   Marnold made quite an excellent machine; i have a few.  I especially like the comments below about model railroaders with engineer caps and pipes.  I just had this discussion [about pipes] with a fellow collector.   Regards,   Louis N     I haven't had a cigarette in over a week.  I was thinking of taking up my pipe again, maybe I should :-) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22313	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...

On 23/03/14 13:39, Mike Bauers wrote: > So...... > > It might be accurate that the model is more of an artistic impression than a strictly realistic version of a model. > > In many ways all Lionel products have some artistic liberties taken with them and it's very hard to find one that is truly a scale model. > > This may be the unifying Lionel touch to all of their models.... A bit of artistic exaggeration here and there. And the outlandishly incorrect color schemes on some.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22314	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

But did they drive Volvo’s?   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of louis niederlander Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:43 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat      During this thread I mentioned a conversation with a fellow collector about pipe smoking model railroaders.  Actually this discussion went much deeper.  My friend lived on City Island in the Bronx and made regular visits to the Lionel and American Flyer showrooms.  We also discussed appearal along with pipe smoking.   My friend said that the Lionel salesmen were all in well tailored suits and ran the trains fast because of magne traction.  The AF salesmen were all as described below; tweed sportcoats with leather patches.  They ran the trains slow and carefully (no magne traction).   Regards,   Louis N To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2014 21:10:42 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat But then you’d have to get a 1984 Volvo and wear a tam.  A tweed sports coat with leather elbow patches would be nice also.   John Hagen -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22315	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

On 23/03/14 14:45, John Hagen wrote: > But did they drive Volvo's? > John Hagen Damn near, from the sound of it.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22316	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

This topic can get confusing enough without one's personal deviations from the norm, as to how they powered their layouts.  These variations on the methods of powering these layouts would seem to need some clarification.  We all know that a transformer does exactly that; it transforms voltage from one amount/level to another, as from normal house current 120 volts AC to approximately 12 volts AC.  A variable transformer would then have a control over this 12 volts AC, in regulating the 12 volt AC outlet in increments as found with Lionel and American Flyer transformers.    Now, from your statement, it appears as though you're saying you're using just such a 120 volt AC to 12 volt AC transformer as the original power source and feeding this 12 volt AC current into a DC power pack that normal is fed 120 volts AC into it.  A DC power pack being fed 120 volts ac into it produces approximately 12 volts DC.  How many volts DC is this same power pack producing when you feed only 12 volts AC into it instead of 120 volts AC?   If it appears I'm way off base here, it's because the way I'm reading your statement seems way off to me.  I'm having a problem grasping what you're trying to say.  With a normal application of 120 volts AC to 12 volts DC, that's a drop to about 10% of the original starting current, with it being converted to DC.  With feeding only 12 volts AC into this power pack, it would seem you're only going to get 1.2 volts DC out of it after the current is transformed and converted.  How can you operate a 12 volt motor at normal speeds with only 1.2 volts DC -- the drop from 12 volt AC input into the power pack to 10% of this at the outlet side as DC ?   RFW     In a message dated 3/22/2014 1:49:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dnhelber@... writes:   Rheostat vs. Variac I'm sure this has been covered before, but technically, what is the difference between a rheostat, a potentiometer, and a variable transformer (e.g. Variac)? I thought I'd start a separate thread rather than let this subject hijack the Sal Met Soldering thread the way the Marn-O-Stat did. Long before DCC or most transistorized power packs, I used a variable transformer (Variac) in the AC 110-volt line as a throttle to control the input to the DC HO power pack. The advantage was better starting and low speed control.  A regular rheostat makes the loco start with a jerk and immediately run at faster than its minimum speed. This was because the rheostat's output voltage varies with current drawn. Starting a stopped motor armature draws more current than running at minimum speed. As soon as the rheo delivers enough voltage to get the motor starting, the resistance drops and up goes the voltage from the rheo, for the familiar DC "flying takeoff". By leaving the pack's rheostat set on high, and regulating the input voltage to the pack with the Variable Transformer, the loco would start smoothly and move away at its normal minimum speed. But why? Looking at the Variac, it just looks like a hefty rheostat. In the Sal Met/Marnold thread, Louis Niederlander says:  >The toy train transformers were not variacs.  Variac is actually a trade name for a variable auto-transformer.  It has a single winding.  Toy train transformers have a primary and secondary winding with a wiper on the secondary.  >Variacs were used to change the ac voltage value delivered to the input of a step down transformer.… >[Marn-O-Stats] could also be wired as potentiometers (voltage control as opposed to current control like a rheostat). So what is the difference - rheostat, Variac, potentiometer - and what are the advantages of each for the pre-DCC operator? -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22317	From: vancampbell64	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

Chuck, The "Hi-F" was originally a design patented by a gentleman by the name of Robert Smith. He and Irv Athearn collaborated to bring his design to production. The design, by virtue of it's "anti-wheel slip" qualities, was deemed by both men to be an "high-efficiency" design, hence the abbreviated moniker "Hi-F"!    And Chuck, I certainly was not in that room at the time! This information was taken from "Greenberg's Guide To Athearn Trains" Page 35, dealing exclusively on this matter. This publication is certainly worth having in one's library! It's not cheap when it can be found, but it deals much more into topics such as this than does the "Standard Guide To Athearn Model Trains" which is much better suited to cataloging and authentication of the contents of one's collection. In my opinion, both are a must have for even a beginner Athearn Collector! One caveat though; Don't even think of paying the bucks that ebay sellers want for the "Standard Guide"! Get it right from the authors/publishers via the "HOSeekers.net" site! I got mine for under $20 postpaid! Van.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22318	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...

Van,   As you probably read, and as others may well be unaware of, Irv Athearn stated (in an interview on Sept. 8, 1983 with Dallas Mallerich --author of the "Greenberg's Guide to Model Trains"), "In a belt drive you have four clutches.  If one (axle) slips, the other three pick it up.  But with a geared unit, once it starts to slip, its lost its feet, and won't go very far."  This is the high efficiency that "Hi-F" is meant to define and refer to -- and as Irv also stated. "I can take today a belt-driven locomotive and it'll outpull a geared unit" especially because of this feature.  Nice catch on Mallerich's Hi-F explanation in his book, BTW, but I would add that this book does a decent job of cataloging Athearn's production also.   Ray Wetzel         In a message dated 3/22/2014 9:47:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tehachapikid@... writes:     Chuck, The "Hi-F" was originally a design patented by a gentleman by the name of Robert Smith. He and Irv Athearn collaborated to bring his design to production. The design, by virtue of it's "anti-wheel slip" qualities, was deemed by both men to be an "high-efficiency" design, hence the abbreviated moniker "Hi-F"!    And Chuck, I certainly was not in that room at the time! This information was taken from "Greenberg's Guide To Athearn Trains" Page 35, dealing exclusively on this matter. This publication is certainly worth having in one's library! It's not cheap when it can be found, but it deals much more into topics such as this than does the "Standard Guide To Athearn Model Trains" which is much better suited to cataloging and authentication of the contents of one's collection. In my opinion, both are a must have for even a beginner Athearn Collector! One caveat tho ugh; Don't even think of paying the bucks that ebay sellers want for the "Standard Guide"! Get it right from the authors/publishers via the "HOSeekers.net" site! I got mine for under $20 postpaid! Van.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22319	From: 23weldon	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

RE Variacs/autotransformers....... Chuck, Thanks for educating me on Variacs and their ilk.  I didn't know about the autotransformer characteristic.  I always thought they had full secondary windings.  Suggests to me that the use of a variac in a model train application should be approached with some degree of caution especially if the grounding of the AC electric service isn't "rock solid". Ed

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22320	From: david_helber	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

I think there is some confusion here, RFW.  Let me clarify what I meant when describing my old system: The cord came out of the wall carrying 110 volts or so, and went directly to a Variac (which was in a custom built enclosure, since it has high-voltage connections). When the Variac was on FULL, it passed all 110 volts to the step-down transformer in a DC power pack. The transformer steps the voltage down to about 12 volts or a bit more, which go along the pack's internal wiring to a rectifier and come out as 12 v DC, which then goes to the rheostat. If the rheostat is on FULL, all 12 v or so is passed to the track. If I back the Variac off to 50% of FULL power, the transformer in the pack is now only getting about 55 volts AC input, so it only puts out 6 or so volts, which are rectified and pass through the rheo to the track as 6 v DC. I can control track voltage by turning down either the rheostat or the Variac. But I leave the pack rheostat on FULL, and use the Variac as a throttle, because it allows smoother starts.   I wouldn't call this a "personal deviation" - I built it as described in Model Railroader in the '60s or else one of the Kalmbach wiring books. It was given as one way to achieve better throttle control, but has the disadvantages of requiring an extra, fairly expensive, component (the Variac), and of having to build an enclosure for it because of the 110 v connections. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22321	From: david_helber	Date: 3/22/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Attachments : TransistorMarnold5.jpg TransistorMarnold1.jpg You learn something new every day. Just found out that Marnold had at least one transistorized model. - D

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22322	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Okay D, thanks for clarifying.  Yes, the way it appeared to be written did cause much confusion, not in what I read (as I read it clearly) but in what appeared to be the concept of the power being able to operate a 12 volt DC motor at what appeared to be a maximum 1.5 volts DC without a load.  Your rewriting of this in other terms makes perfect sense now, abeit it's still seen as a deviation from the norm as this is method is (extremely) far from universally employed -- even if you're not the only modeler doing this.  I am enlightened though, and I can certainly see the benefits.  Thanks again.   RFW     In a message dated 3/23/2014 1:12:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dnhelber@... writes:   I think there is some confusion here, RFW.  Let me clarify what I meant when describing my old system: The cord came out of the wall carrying 110 volts or so, and went directly to a Variac (which was in a custom built enclosure, since it has high-voltage connections). When the Variac was on FULL, it passed all 110 volts to the step-down transformer in a DC power pack. The transformer steps the voltage down to about 12 volts or a bit more, which go along the pack's internal wiring to a rectifier and come out as 12 v DC, which then goes to the rheostat. If the rheostat is on FULL, all 12 v or so is passed to the track. If I back the Variac off to 50% of FULL power, the transformer in the pack is now only getting about 55 volts AC input, so it only puts out 6 or so volts, which are rectified and pass through the rheo to the track as 6 v DC. I can control track voltage by turning down either the rheostat or the Variac. But I leave the pack rheostat on FULL, and use the Variac as a throttle, because it allows smoother starts.   I wouldn't call this a "personal deviation" - I built it as described in Model Railroader in the '60s or else one of the Kalmbach wiring books. It was given as one way to achieve better throttle control, but has the disadvantages of requiring an extra, fairly expensive, component (the Variac), and of having to build an enclosure for it because of the 110 v connections. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22323	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Marnold, was; Zamac & Sal-Met flux

Hello D,   While I had assumed it was common knowledge after 39 years that Marnold (Walthers) had at least one transistorized model, I see not everyone realized this.  Yes, Walthers' 1974 catalog introduced as new, their Marn-O-Stat Transistor Throttle -- Model # 3590T -- "Available EARLY 1974."  It was priced at $89.50; can be used to replace any 2300 Series throttle, Compatible with other Marnold components.  Can be used with any DC power source.   Throttle Performance Data:   1.  Minimum output - 0.2 Volts, Maximum output - 14 Volts @ no load, 10.5 to 11 Volts @ 4 Amperes.   2.  Fixed acceleration timing between 10 & 15 seconds from standing start to full speed.  Aceleration timing may be eliminated with switch.   3.  Slow, smooth creep control.   4.  Selector switch allows choice of 4 brake positions.   5.  Tapered speed control design allows vernier control of slow speed operation.   6.  Automatic load compensation.   Continous current capacity -- 4 amperes.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22324	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Zamac & Sal-Met flux [2 Attachments]

Does anyone have one? In operating condition? On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 2:34 AM, <dnhelber@...> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from dnhelber@... included below] You learn something new every day. Just found out that Marnold had at least one transistorized model. - D -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22325	From: trainliker	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

 A sort of club I was in found another reason to use a Variac to control the AC to another transformer.  It wasn't an HO power pack but a Lionel train transformer.  But the idea will work for either.  We had a very large Lional type display layout we took to train shows where the outermost track loop was controlled by a transformer kids could operate.   The Variac was used to limit the maximum speed kids could go when ramming their throttle handle to "full" as they tend to do.   Of course, I'm sure none of us did that when playing with our toy trains.  I'm sure we always stuck to prototype speeds and made sure to never hit a curve too fast.  Hah!   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: eriepacific@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 4:35 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rheostat vs. Variac   Okay D, thanks for clarifying.  Yes, the way it appeared to be written did cause much confusion, not in what I read (as I read it clearly) but in what appeared to be the concept of the power being able to operate a 12 volt DC motor at what appeared to be a maximum 1.5 volts DC without a load.  Your rewriting of this in other terms makes perfect sense now, abeit it's still seen as a deviation from the norm as this is method is (extremely) far from universally employed -- even if you're not the only modeler doing this.  I am enlightened though, and I can certainly see the benefits.  Thanks again.   RFW     In a message dated 3/23/2014 1:12:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dnhelber@... writes:   I think there is some confusion here, RFW.  Let me clarify what I meant when describing my old system: The cord came out of the wall carrying 110 volts or so, and went directly to a Variac (which was in a custom built enclosure, since it has high-voltage connections). When the Variac was on FULL, it passed all 110 volts to the step-down transformer in a DC power pack. The transformer steps the voltage down to about 12 volts or a bit more, which go along the pack's internal wiring to a rectifier and come out as 12 v DC, which then goes to the rheostat. If the rheostat is on FULL, all 12 v or so is passed to the track. If I back the Variac off to 50% of FULL power, the transformer in the pack is now only getting about 55 volts AC input, so it only puts out 6 or so volts, which are rectified and pass through the rheo to the track as 6 v DC. I can control track voltage by turning down either the rheostat or the Variac. But I leave the pack rheostat on FULL, and use the Variac as a throttle, because it allows smoother starts.   I wouldn't call this a "personal deviation" - I built it as described in Model Railroader in the '60s or else one of the Kalmbach wiring books. It was given as one way to achieve better throttle control, but has the disadvantages of requiring an extra, fairly expensive, component (the Variac), and of having to build an enclosure for it because of the 110 v connections. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22326	From: trainliker	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please

 I already have the "Standard Guide"   Noticed "Standard Guide Volume II" at hoseeker but it seems to be online items there.   http://www.hoseeker.org/athearnstandardguide.htm   When I got my first rubber band drive engine as a kid and took it apart right away (always the tinkerer) I was kind of surprised by the simplicity thinking "that's all there is to this?".  Later, as an engineer, I would learn to call such designs as "elegant".   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: tehachapikid@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2014 7:47 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit please     Chuck, The "Hi-F" was originally a design patented by a gentleman by the name of Robert Smith. He and Irv Athearn collaborated to bring his design to production. The design, by virtue of it's "anti-wheel slip" qualities, was deemed by both men to be an "high-efficiency" design, hence the abbreviated moniker "Hi-F"!    And Chuck, I certainly was not in that room at the time! This information was taken from "Greenberg's Guide To Athearn Trains" Page 35, dealing exclusively on this matter. This publication is certainly worth having in one's library! It's not cheap when it can be found, but it deals much more into topics such as this than does the "Standard Guide To Athearn Model Trains" which is much better suited to cataloging and authentication of the contents of one's collection. In my opinion, both are a must have for even a beginner Athearn Collector! One caveat though; Don't even think of paying the bucks that ebay sellers want for the "Standard Guide"! Get it right from the authors/publishers via the "HOSeekers.net" site! I got mine for under $20 postpaid! Van.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22327	From: wlon17	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Information wanted on Fleischmann diesel model

Hi,  I just added three pictures of a Fleischmann #1340 diesel I bought for ten dollars at a train show saturday. The sticker said it runs but is noisey. It just needed a drop of oil on the end of the armature shaft. It seems well built and is heavy. Can anyone tell me about this loco? I would be gratefull for any information such as history, what kind of diesel, running qualities and value. Thanks.  Lon Walker

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22328	From: the_plainsman	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Information wanted on Fleischmann diesel model

Nice find, Lon. I think you got an excellent buy on a fine German model of an American prototype Baldwin switcher. That black version seems to be very desirable as well – just checked the eBay completed listings for it. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22329	From: david_helber	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Information wanted on Fleischmann diesel model

I like the Fleischmann Baldwin a lot. I have one in C&NW green/yellow, and one in bare metal. Yours is beautiful - horn, stack, all handrails, and end-steps. And a remarkably good price. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22330	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Information wanted on Fleischmann diesel model

On 3/23/2014 7:24 PM, wlon17@... wrote: Hi,  I just added three pictures of a Fleischmann #1340 diesel I bought for ten dollars at a train show saturday. The sticker said it runs but is noisey. It just needed a drop of oil on the end of the armature shaft. It seems well built and is heavy. Can anyone tell me about this loco? I would be gratefull for any information such as history, what kind of diesel, running qualities and value. Thanks.  Lon Walker It is supposed to be a Baldwin Switcher, but is about 15 to 20 feet two too long (too lazy to go downstairs and put a ruler on mine),  The black version probably dates from about the mid 1950's, because by 1060 they were only offering it painted in Chicago & NorthWestern colors. Fleischmann's were always very good runners, even if they weren't too hot on prototype fidelity.   I remember a club member getting rather upset with me one night when my E-10 electric (which used the same truck/motor as the Baldwin) out pulled his TWO Hobbytowns (the late Flywheel versions). Don't know what they're really worth (and I'd love to get me hands on another one, my doesn't run, and the power truck is actually broken, not just burned out), but I'd say at $ 10.00 you stole it. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22331	From: johnhutnick	Date: 3/23/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

To further "clarify" this Variac subject, you can use any enclosed variable transformer to control any typical power supply for HO.  As has been discussed, turn up your power pack full, plug into variac, use that to control speed.  You then do not have to confront the poor control that results from the rheostats in many power packs.  Look on Ebay, and you might find 500 variac type units for sale.  When not running trains, you can slow down a fan, regulate your soldering iron, dim a light bulb, etc.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22332	From: trainliker	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Be careful if using reduced voltage to an appliance motor;  You can overheating for several reasons.  One is that at a slow speed there isn't the expected back cancelling EMF.  There may be insufficient air cooling to the motor.  If a capacitor start motor, the capacitor start switch might never open leaving current running through those windings.  Diimming a light bulb is one thing.  Slowing a motor is another animal. Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22333	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Can it be assured that "any" Variac may be used to control a typical powerpack (12 V DC outlet) supply for H0, without the possibility of any of these variable autotransformers producing pulsing or having an effect on the on-angle/power factor?  Can a 'universal' dimmer be used in place of a Variac if set to auto-detect?  Or don't these factors need to be taken into consideration for any of the 12 V DC motors we work with?  A concern is that since pulse power from our powerpacks should never be used for any length of time because of potential motor windings overheating, if pulsing may be produced by some Variac models, as appears may be done with some other autotransformers, this AC current may lead to problems at the input side of our powerpacks before it even gets converted to DC.      Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/24/2014 1:01:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, johnhutnick@... writes:   To further "clarify" this Variac subject, you can use any enclosed variable transformer to control any typical power supply for HO.  As has been discussed, turn up your power pack full, plug into variac, use that to control speed.  You then do not have to confront the poor control that results from the rheostats in many power packs.  Look on Ebay, and you might find 500 variac type units for sale.  When not running trains, you can slow down a fan, regulate your soldering iron, dim a light bulb, etc.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22334	From: corlissbs	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...

Attachments : Attached is a pic of my Athearn/Globe Hi-F drive F7, in the early New Haven color scheme, with the black rectangle on the side that was later eliminated.  This shows the single headlight, glued on number boards and three piece horn.   One thing is different from the gold Globe models that I had as a teenager.  On the inside of the body, at the rear of the cab, the locators for the rear cab wall are not there.  They have been removed from the die.  This was where the cab wall would slip into.  I can see a trace of where they were.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 3/22/2014 6:13:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time, avanti78@... writes:   Try this:  respond to the yahoo email, as you would any other.  Attach your pics by clicking on “Insert” and click on “Attach File”, then I can get into my picture library,    OR  attach you’re pics to your yahoo response just as you would any other email you are sending. Denis   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (33) .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22335	From: trainliker	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

A Variac (or any autotransformer) is just a transformer and cannot produce pulses or the like.  The only time you would see anything unusual on the outputs of the transformer would be if the load was unusual (such as can be seen if running a big pulse width modulated motor in a machine or something). Regarding using any electronic dimmer - I would avoid that although it might work.  But there is certainly more opportunity for surprise. Chuck Kinzer .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22336	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...

Attachments : What about this one?  It says “you Will Like It”. http://www.ebay.com/itm/251484006156?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648   Denis From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of corlissbs@... Sent: Monday, March 24, 2014 9:31 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Tell me about Globe, "Gold Kit A98," plastic dummy F unit...     Attached is a pic of my Athearn/Globe Hi-F drive F7, in the early New Haven color scheme, with the black rectangle on the side that was later eliminated.  This shows the single headlight, glued on number boards and three piece horn.   One thing is different from the gold Globe models that I had as a teenager.  On the inside of the body, at the rear of the cab, the locators for the rear cab wall are not there.  They have been removed from the die.  This was where the cab wall would slip into.  I can see a trace of where they were.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 3/22/2014 6:13:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time, avanti78@... writes:   Try this:  respond to the yahoo email, as you would any other.  Attach your pics by clicking on “Insert” and click on “Attach File”, then I can get into my picture library,    OR  attach you’re pics to your yahoo response just as you would any other email you are sending. Denis   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (33) .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22337	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

On 25/03/14 0:18, eriepacific@... wrote: A concern is that > since pulse power from our powerpacks should never be used for any length of > time because of potential motor windings overheating, if pulsing may be > produced by some Variac models, as appears may be done with some other > autotransformers, this AC current may lead to problems at the input side of our > powerpacks before it even gets converted to DC. Ray, in the last few days I've acquired an English Hornby/Marshall Controller, which has no transformer in it - it's connected to an outside transformer.. It does have an internal rectifier. It has a Pulse Power switch setting 'for ultra-slow running', but there is no warning about possibly overheating motors in the Instruction Sheet. However, Hornby motors of those days were fairly open (ie well-ventilated) and robustly made, so it may not have been a problem.. Date on this unit is 1960.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22338	From: Tertius	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

Greetings from Port Elizabeth, South Africa,   Nice to see the entry and comments on the Fleischmann Diesel 1340. I can only concur that the green and yellow model I have runs very smoothly and quietly. Its slow running ability is exceptional. If my memory serves me right they were also available in a dark maroon colour. I was interested to learn of a black version, a colour scheme that I had not known about before the posting on this model.   Quite a bit of fifties and sixties Fleischmann was sold in South Africa judging by the items that one finds at swop meets and in attics. One problem though is finding spares and missing bits. Does anyone know of a source of Fleischmann spares? My Diesel for instance came without its two end handrails and one coupling, coupling bracket and the two tiny slotted screws that hold it in place. Like for many collectors, missing bits are frustrating for me and I always attempt to complete models that have them missing.   Kind regards     Tertius Coetzee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22339	From: rxensen	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

I have used a sew machine foot petal, Its not a Variac,but works well if you want your hands free. Just pug the transformer into a regular AC outlet that replaced the sew machine plug. It's also useful for the Dremel tool. Ron Christensen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22340	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Ron,   Great idea on its face, especially when operating a Dremel tool and you NEED to have your hands free.  Yes, Dremel tools have their own speed control, but there may be times when running it even slower than the first notch becomes handy for certain applications.  As running some house current electric motors at lower than their stated specs can damage them, at least some caution may be of help here in not ruining an electrical tool.  I don't know if I'd chance it but it looks inviting when slower RPM's are a real benefit.   Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 3/25/2014 5:51:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rxensen@... writes:   I have used a sew machine foot petal, Its not a Variac,but works well if you want your hands free. Just plug the transformer into a regular AC outlet that replaced the sew machine plug. It's also useful for the Dremel tool. Ron Christensen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22341	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Hi Doug,   Nice find on that controller.  You should be able to do a lot with that, depending upon the Amp rating of that outside transformer.  Yes, many earlier power packs had Pulse Power.  My two Model Rectifier Corp. golden Throttlepacks have this (controlled by a separate switch), but my later MRC Controlmaster II and Controlmaster V power packs do not.  While the box that the Throttlepack comes in states all kinds of perks of this power pack, there's no warning on this manufacturer's box either about pulse possibly causing overheating.    As for possible overheating of your engines' motors though, I had assumed by now that this was a given, that just about everyone was aware of this characteristic of Pulse as these warning go way back to those eras when Pulse Power was first introduced.  I apologize for just assuming something that may have been lost over time, or that some newer modelers may never have had the chance to read.  While I had just remembered it from various sources going back up to over 50 years ago as being drummed into my head, I did some researching this morning after reading your post, to see if I could come up with something more concrete.    I did find one source, although I know I've read others over those same years, even right into the 1970's.  In "The Complete Book of Model Railroading" by David Sutton (Castle Books, published by Prentice Hall -- copyright 1964), within Chapter XVI - Supplying the Power - An Introduction to Wiring; starting on Page 56 and continued on Page 60, it reads -- "Some (power) packs include pulse power, a power application followed by some and avoided by others.  In overcoming the inertia of a still locomotive, instead of a jerky forward motion (or jack rabbit start), pulse power can accomplish the same forward movement with a series of gentle shoves.  As you increase the throttle speed, you attain a believable rolling action, and in slowing down you can literally crawl to a stop.  Technically speaking, it is the difference between the output of a full or half-wave rectifier, pulse power being the latter.  However, care must be exercised in this type of power usage, since it is not advisable to run your engine at high speed for danger of overheating or burnout.  The best application is for starting and stopping."   I'll add that it goes on with the next paragraph stating that "The Marnold power pack has pulse power built in rather uniquely.  As you move the throttle from starting position, you have the benefit of pulse forward motion; as you increase the throttle, the power switches over to full DC, so there is no danger of running your engine into a heat condition."      As may be seen in the second paragraph, uncontrolled pulse power can lead to motor overheating when run at normal operating speeds, faster than just starting up or coming to a crawling stop.  Sutton advised against operating your engine at high speed, but any normal speed over starting up can be cause for concern on pulse power, which is what I'm understanding him to mean as "high speed" (higher speed than starting, not necessarily 90 MPH tin-plate style).  While you mention that Hornby motors those days were fairly open, this is exactly when this book was published -- and exactly when most H0 motors, like Pittman here in the States, were open-frame motors.  I included the bit about Marnold, as this part may add to much of what's already been posted on this manufacturer, but not all power pack had pulse power cut-out at speed, which was the main reason in this book for the warning.  Unless you know your controller has automatic pulse cut out, I'd recommend you only use it for starting -- if you feel the need to -- and perhaps for stopping.   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 3/24/2014 9:31:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, digbee@... writes:   On 25/03/14 0:18, eriepacific@... wrote: A concern is that > since pulse power from our powerpacks should never be used for any length of > time because of potential motor windings overheating, if pulsing may be > produced by some Variac models, as appears may be done with some other > autotransformers, this AC current may lead to problems at the input side of our > powerpacks before it even gets converted to DC. Ray, in the last few days I've acquired an English Hornby/Marshall Controller, which has no transformer in it - it's connected to an outside transformer.. It does have an internal rectifier. It has a Pulse Power switch setting 'for ultra-slow running', but there is no warning about possibly overheating motors in the Instruction Sheet. However, Hornby motors of those days were fairly open (ie well-ventilated) and robustly made, so it may not have been a problem.. Date on this unit is 1960.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22342	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Attachments : MRC500GoldenThrottle1969.gif Ahhhh, the MRC Golden Throttlepack. So very high tech! Glimmering coppery-gold, with that big knob that had its own cranking knob on top of it.  And a slide switch for pulse power! I remember sliding it ON to start up the road engine smoothly on pulse, and then, at about 1/3 throttle, cutting the pulse OFF so that the motor wouldn't overheat at running speeds. Of course, that made the engine jump forward as the full-wave power hit the armature, so to keep the train moving smoothly you had to master the tricky art of twitching the throttle down just the right amount, precisely when you turned off the pulse switch. (Boy, was I glad to discover the Variac system). Later, of course, MRC brought out the Tech II packs that gradually phased out the pulse as the voltage increased, and the finger magic of the pulse switch became a lost art. These kids have it so easy nowadays. -- D

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22343	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac [1 Attachment]

D,   Yeah, that's the one.  I have two of them but I don't use them anymore.  Right, you had to time your throttle back off just right to match your shutting off the pulse power.  Glad to see you can confirm motors heating up at running speed if you left the pulse on.  The kids have it all MADE today < g >.   RFW   In a message dated 3/25/2014 10:59:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dnhelber@... writes:   Ahhhh, the MRC Golden Throttlepack. So very high tech! Glimmering coppery-gold, with that big knob that had its own cranking knob on top of it.  And a slide switch for pulse power! I remember sliding it ON to start up the road engine smoothly on pulse, and then, at about 1/3 throttle, cutting the pulse OFF so that the motor wouldn't overheat at running speeds. Of course, that made the engine jump forward as the full-wave power hit the armature, so to keep the train moving smoothly you had to master the tricky art of twitching the throttle down just the right amount, precisely when you turned off the pulse switch. (Boy, was I glad to discover the Variac system). Later, of course, MR C brought out the Tech II packs that gradually phased out the pulse as the voltage increased, and the finger magic of the pulse switch became a lost art. These kids have it so easy nowadays. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22344	From: sprinthag	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Varney F3 parts

I am searching for a coup;e of sets of Varney part #1950 -number boards for the diecast F3's. Also some #1953 -air horns would be nice. Some of the spur gears for the 2060-K drive with the DC 71 motor and some drive-shafts or material to make such shafts would be nice too.  But the bigest thing is the number boards and they are also probably the rarest too as they seem to missing from every diecast F3 I see on eBay.  Boy even if I could get a hold of one set or even just one maybe I could create a mold fro casting them. Contact me off-list if you have any.of these items. Oh yes; to Don and Mike. I have a pair of brass trolly poles coming for the Pennsylvania IRR car that SHOULD work. If so, I only need one so the other will be available for 1/2 my $15.00 (incl shipping) cost. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22345	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Varney F3 parts

Attachments : Hello John, Sorry, I don’t have those parts.  But, I’m about to try my luck at resin casting.  Is this the medium you use? If so, what is your experience with the amount of preparation required, the mold material, and your satisfaction with the end product? Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sprinthag@... Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 1:30 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Varney F3 parts     I am searching for a coup;e of sets of Varney part #1950 -number boards for the diecast F3's. Also some #1953 -air horns would be nice. Some of the spur gears for the 2060-K drive with the DC 71 motor and some drive-shafts or material to make such shafts would be nice too.  But the bigest thing is the number boards and they are also probably the rarest too as they seem to missing from every diecast F3 I see on eBay.  Boy even if I could get a hold of one set or even just one maybe I could create a mold fro casting them. Contact me off-list if you have any.of these items. Oh yes; to Don and Mike. I have a pair of brass trolly poles coming for the Pennsylvania IRR car that SHOULD work. If so, I only need one so the other will be available for 1/2 my $15.00 (incl shipping) cost. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22346	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

---Tertius says : > ...the green and yellow model I have runs very smoothly and quietly. Its slow running ability is exceptional. > Quite a bit of fifties and sixties Fleischmann was sold in South Africa judging by the items that one finds at swop meets and in attics. One problem though is finding spares and missing bits. ============================= Hello, Tertius, Your experiences parallel mine in a couple of ways.  The Fleischmann Baldwin has a lovely solid feel to it and hums along so smoothly and powerfully, and looks so good that I can forgive any scale discrepancies. (Somebody once said it's closer to a OO loco than HO) I would guess that vintage Fleischmann equipment is common in South Africa because the Afrikaaners (original Dutch settlers, for American readers) seem to have a history of preferring German technology over British, starting with the Mauser rifles of the Boer War. When I lived in Dallas, which was settled largely by Anglo-Celtic pioneers, Fleischmann was exotic and rare at train shows. Once I moved to the countryside, just north of New Braunfels, the glittering capital of German 1840s-1850s south-Texas settlement, it seemed to be everywhere at very reasonable prices, in both American and European prototypes. I became very fond of the 19th Century German small steam equipment of the various railway systems that predated the Deutsche Bundesbahn (the unified German Federal Railway).  A few Christmases ago, I set up a Fleischmann German-themed layout around the small tree on the dining table. The eight-year old son of a friend became fascinated with switching the short cars in and out of the various sidings. The equipment worked well, stayed coupled, and stayed on the track - more than I could say for American HO of the same vintage. The short steamers even ran through the (early Fleischmann) switches without stalling out - well, usually anyway. There's something to be said for the German approach of a unified system of trains, track, power, controls and signals all created by a single manufacturer, all engineered to work smoothly together. Much less frustrating for the owner, especially the younger owner. I haven't ever found the handrails and end pieces for my bare-metal example of the Baldwin, either. Somebody disassembled and stripped it to paint it, and never finished the job, I guess. His heirs probably sold it without knowing what the little package near it was. I think the Fleischmann Baldwin has another place in model railroading history that is not much mentioned. It indirectly brought N-scale to the US. Arnold Rapido, the German creator of N-scale, had, as its first US prototype locomotive, a representation of the same Baldwin switcher, but bloated beyond all recognition in order to take the motor and mechanism in this small scale. My guess is that Arnold's inspiration for that choice was the Fleischmann Baldwin that had been more or less successfully marketed in the US. -- D ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <ctj@...> wrote : Greetings from Port Elizabeth, South Africa,   Nice to see the entry and comments on the Fleischmann Diesel 1340. I can only concur that the green and yellow model I have runs very smoothly and quietly. Its slow running ability is exceptional. If my memory serves me right they were also available in a dark maroon colour. I was interested to learn of a black version, a colour scheme that I had not known about before the posting on this model.   Quite a bit of fifties and sixties Fleischmann was sold in South Africa judging by the items that one finds at swop meets and in attics. One problem though is finding spares and missing bits. Does anyone know of a source of Fleischmann spares? My Diesel for instance came without its two end handrails and one coupling, coupling bracket and the two tiny slotted screws that hold it in place. Like for many collectors, missing bits are frustrating for me and I always attempt to complete models that have them missing.   Kind regards     Tertius Coetzee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22347	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

Attachments : Baldwins-N-HO.jpg Dang. Forgot the photo to illustrate my Fleischmann-Arnold theory. Here it is. -- D

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22349	From: rcjge	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Varney F3 parts

John: Might have but I'd have to send you the shell. You are talking metal correct? I've been outta things a whle... -Jeff (Gareth)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22350	From: rcjge	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Swap, Mantua Eight Ball for RRosi tender with Franklin Booster

(22348) Hey Guys: Any of you want to Swap, a Mantua Eight Ball (brass) for a RRosi 0-8-0 tender with Franklin Booster? I'm also looking for a Roundhouse Climax shell, just the shell.... Thanks, Jeff (Gareth)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22351	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

Peter Effert has a very good German collector's page on the Fleischmann Baldwin. There were more variants than I thought and he has good photos of all of them. To get a fairly good English translation, go to Google Translate, click German, and enter the URL http://www.effert.de/index.php/baldwin-loks Then click on the translated URL, and you should get the page.  I assumed Fleischmann had just selected a random style of American diesel switcher to sell in the US, but it turns out that the US government imported the Baldwin VO-660 locos to European national railways to help those nations rebuild after WWII, so this model was also appropriate for the European market. Fleischmann's model had color variants inspired by (but usually not marked for) the Dutch and possibly Luxembourg national railways (various reds), the French SNCF (dark green), as well as the Pennsylvania (black), the Northern Pacific (two-tone green), the familiar C&NW (green yellow), and the ATSF (grey and red to suggest the Santa Fe's red/silver passenger scheme). I'm guessing the reds also stood in for the German Federated Railway, and Mr. Effert thought it was too obvious to his German readership to have to mention. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22352	From: Dale Smith	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

I had a black version of the locomotive which came in a set with three sheet metal passenger cars.  The set was pretty drab, but I still have the pieces of it and hope to restore it soon.  I, too, would be interested in parts sources, especially brushes and brush springs.  One thing I do remember is that I changed the stack, for what I thought at the time was a more prototypical wider stack.  I probably need the original stack too.  I was 12-14 at the time.  I also remember that the cars came with pizza cutter flanges which, as I remember, wouldn't run properly on my track.   I tried, unsuccessfully to turn them down, so I will also need some replacement wheels, probably from another manufacturer.  Overall, it was a disappointing purchase at the time for a kid who was into scale model railroading.   The locomotive appeared much too long and the cars had huge visible screws in the roofs to fasten them down. I totally rejected the fiberboard inverted u-rail tin track that came with the set as unworthy of even being set up.  As more of a collector now, I think I can appreciate it for what is, simply a toy train. Dale Smith On 3/25/2014 2:27 AM, Tertius wrote:   Greetings from Port Elizabeth, South Africa,   Nice to see the entry and comments on the Fleischmann Diesel 1340. I can only concur that the green and yellow model I have runs very smoothly and quietly. Its slow running ability is exceptional. If my memory serves me right they were also available in a dark maroon colour. I was interested to learn of a black version, a colour scheme that I had not known about before the posting on this model.   Quite a bit of fifties and sixties Fleischmann was sold in South Africa judging by the items that one finds at swop meets and in attics. One problem though is finding spares and missing bits. Does anyone know of a source of Fleischmann spares? My Diesel for instance came without its two end handrails and one coupling, coupling bracket and the two tiny slotted screws that hold it in place. Like for many collectors, missing bits are frustrating for me and I always attempt to complete models that have them missing.   Kind regards     Tertius Coetzee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22353	From: Dale Smith	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

By the way, I forgot to mention the passenger cars were dark maroon. Dale On 3/25/2014 2:53 PM, Dale Smith wrote: I had a black version of the locomotive which came in a set with three sheet metal passenger cars.  The set was pretty drab, but I still have the pieces of it and hope to restore it soon.  I, too, would be interested in parts sources, especially brushes and brush springs.  One thing I do remember is that I changed the stack, for what I thought at the time was a more prototypical wider stack.  I probably need the original stack too.  I was 12-14 at the time.  I also remember that the cars came with pizza cutter flanges which, as I remember, wouldn't run properly on my track.   I tried, unsuccessfully to turn them down, so I will also need some replacement wheels, probably from another manufacturer.  Overall, it was a disappointing purchase at the time for a kid who was into scale model railroading.   The locomotive appeared much too long and the cars had huge visible screws in the roofs to fasten them down. I totally rejected the fiberboard inverted u-rail tin track that came with the set as unworthy of even being set up.  As more of a collector now, I think I can appreciate it for what is, simply a toy train. Dale Smith On 3/25/2014 2:27 AM, Tertius wrote:   Greetings from Port Elizabeth, South Africa,   Nice to see the entry and comments on the Fleischmann Diesel 1340. I can only concur that the green and yellow model I have runs very smoothly and quietly. Its slow running ability is exceptional. If my memory serves me right they were also available in a dark maroon colour. I was interested to learn of a black version, a colour scheme that I had not known about before the posting on this model.   Quite a bit of fifties and sixties Fleischmann was sold in South Africa judging by the items that one finds at swop meets and in attics. One problem though is finding spares and missing bits. Does anyone know of a source of Fleischmann spares? My Diesel for instance came without its two end handrails and one coupling, coupling bracket and the two tiny slotted screws that hold it in place. Like for many collectors, missing bits are frustrating for me and I always attempt to complete models that have them missing.   Kind regards     Tertius Coetzee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22354	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

(text bobbitted) I think the Fleischmann Baldwin has another place in model railroading history that is not much mentioned. It indirectly brought N-scale to the US. Arnold Rapido, the German creator of N-scale, had, as its first US prototype locomotive, a representation of the same Baldwin switcher, but bloated beyond all recognition in order to take the motor and mechanism in this small scale. My guess is that Arnold's inspiration for that choice was the Fleischmann Baldwin that had been more or less successfully marketed in the US. -- D Are you sure you're not thinking of Arnold's model of the Fairbanks Morse H-12-44? Again, it is a large model for a switcher because of the opposed piston engine.  Much the same reason that PRR steam was very popular in the beginning days of HO.  The Belpaire firbox provided rtoom for the bigger 5V motors. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22355	From: Ola Sjöblom	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

It probably is, early Fleischmann was often 1:80 scale. At least the european models was that during the 1950ies and early 1960ies.   Ola   The Fleischmann Baldw in has a lovely solid feel to it and hums along so smoothly and powerfully, and looks so good that I can forgive any scale discrepancies. (Somebody once said it's closer to a OO loco than HO)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22356	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

There's an interesting discussion of the Fleischmann and Garco Baldwin switchers, and of the Fleischmann FAs as well, on one of my favorite model railroading blogs, American OO Today. Here's a link to the Fleischmann posts: http://americanoo.blogspot.com/search/label/Fleischmann Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22357	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Ray Wetzel wrote: < Dremel tools have their own speed control, but there may be times when running it even slower than the first notch becomes handy.... -------------------- Ray,   Are you thinking of the speed control built into some Dremel motor tools?  I've had a Dremel solid state speed control for over 25 years, and there are no notches; you just plug the tool's cord into it (plug the control's cord into an outlet) and dial in the speed you want.  I can turn mine down to probably 1 rpm.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22358	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Varney F3 parts

With or without shell is fine. Let me know if you have and how much.   John   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jgpedwards@... Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 4:25 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney F3 parts     John:   Might have but I'd have to send you the shell. You are talking metal correct? I've been outta things a whle...   -Jeff (Gareth)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22359	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part

Attachments : image.jpeg Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22361	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Varney F3 parts

Hey John Is the molding process going to destroy the shell? I was going to say I would lend it to you for molding purposes and you could mail it back when done? I'll have to find it tomorrow. I'm prepping to leave for just north of NYC likely now on Thursday so I'd bring it along. So to be clear a Varney F3 WITH number boards? Best, Jeff On 25 March 2014 21:03, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:   With or without shell is fine. Let me know if you have and how much.   John   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jgpedwards@... Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 4:25 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney F3 parts     John:   Might have but I'd have to send you the shell. You are talking metal correct? I've been outta things a whle...   -Jeff (Gareth)     -- "A is A" ~ Aristotle

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22362	From: david_helber	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

--- I wrote:    Arnold Rapido, ... had ... a representation of the same Baldwin switcher, but bloated beyond all recognition in order to take the motor and mechanism [and enough weight] in this small scale.  --- Don Dellman replied:    Are you sure you're not thinking of Arnold's model of the Fairbanks Morse H-12-44? Again, it is a large model for a switcher because of the opposed piston engine.   ======= Mighty sure this time, Don. I'm an early Arnold buff, and I'd bet the farm that pre-Riv Arnold never made an FM switcher. I strongly suspect you're thinking of the Minitrix FM H-12-44 which was everywhere in the early days of N. The tall hood needed for FM's opposed-piston ex-submarine powerplant let Minitrix squeeze in an extra CC or so of lead alloy without having to inflate the hood out to the edges of the platform, as Arnold did with its Baldwin. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22363	From: Rick Jones	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]

On 3/25/2014 8:09 PM, Sean Naylor wrote: > Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of > these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they > go to. I know I have seen them before. > > Any ideas? Looks like slope sheets or bottom doors from some hopper cars. -- Rick Jones The most destructive force in the Universe is gossip.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22364	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

On 3/25/2014 9:17 PM, dnhelber@... wrote: ---I wrote : I think the Fleischmann Baldwin ... indirectly brought N-scale to the US. Arnold Rapido, ... had ... a representation of the same Baldwin switcher, but bloated beyond all recognition in order to take the motor and mechanism in this small scale.  --- Don Dellman replied:  Are you sure you're not thinking of Arnold's model of the Fairbanks Morse H-12-44? Again, it is a large model for a switcher because of the opposed piston engine.   ======= Mighty sure this time, Don. I'm an early Arnold buff, and I'd bet the farm that pre-Riv Arnold never made an FM switcher. I strongly suspect you're thinking of the Minitrix FM H-12-44 which was everywhere in the early days of N. The tall hood needed for FM's opposed-piston ex-submarine powerplant let Minitrix squeeze in an extra CC or so of lead alloy without having to inflate the hood out to the edges of the platform, as Arnold did with its Baldwin. . Now that you mention it, Minitrix DOES sound more likely. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22365	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 3/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]

Size?    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com; yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:09:16 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sean Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22366	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Ralph,   Yes, some Dremel's have five speeds built into them, each one notched as a step up to the next speed rather than just one continuous speed adjustment dial as is found on a power pack.  I have two of these, probably at least 20 years old or so - one given to me as a gift by a friend not knowing I already had one.  While I don't know if Dremel tools were made prior to Walthers carrying them, the first appearance of them in Walthers' catalogs that I see was with the 1973 catalog -- and then, they offered three models -- the DRM260, DRM270 and DRM280, none of them having adjustable speed (they were rated for 30,000 rpm, at no load, appearing to be similar to yours).  Walthers 1974 catalog includes two new Dremel tools, the 370 and the 380, in addition to the previous none-adjustable models.  These two new model were adjustable Variable Speed Moto-Tools, rated at 5,000 through 25,000 rpm, in five 5,000 rpm intervals/steps.  All five models were continued through the ensuing years, with an additional non-variable model J245 being added in 1977, totaling six models during these years, into the 1980's.   When Dremel tools were first offered by Walthers, with only the three non-adjustable 30,000 rpm models being available, Dremel also made available their DRM219 Motor Speed Control box unit with a calibrated dial, to be used with your non-adjustable Dremel tool, and the two other non-adjustable models produced that year.  This appears to be what you have, with the separate control box unit.  This control unit was also continued at least into the 1990's, although the six Moto-Tools introduced through the 1970's were replaced.  By 1991, and possibly before, there were three different Moto-Tools -- the Single Speed 275 (@ 28,000 rpm), the Two Speed 285 (@ 15,000 rpm & 28,000 rpm) and the Variable Speed 395 (@ 5,000 rpm to 30,000 rpm).  A new (for 1991) Cordless 8508 Freewheeler Moto-Tool became available that year.  In 1992, there was also a new Minimite (# 750) Moto-Tool added to the other models already being offered at that time, which was another cordless model.  Additionally, another Freewheeler (# 850) Cordless model came out in 1992, a rechargeable model.      BTW, X-Acto came out with their # 600 12 Volt 'Mini-Drill" also by 1973, which could grind and polish, besides drilling.  It was rated for 9000 rpm and operated off of a transformer or car battery (with a separately available #602 cigarette lighter power cord); by 1977, it was gone even though their series (# 604, and then #376-cordless) of "Power Plus" drills continued for a while.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/25/2014 7:57:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Alpvalsys@... writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: < Dremel tools have their own speed control, but there may be times when running it even slower than the first notch becomes handy.... -------------------- Ray,   Are you thinking of the speed control built into some Dremel motor tools?  I've had a Dremel solid state speed control for over 25 years, and there are no notches; you just plug the tool's cord into it (plug the control's cord into an outlet) and dial in the speed you want.  I can turn mine down to probably 1 rpm.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22367	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

If I may toss a comment into this discussion, FWIW my first Dremel back in the 70's was a single speed.  I bought a "speed control" from the hardware store that was intended for electric drills.  It did run the Dremel slowly, but not smoothly.  The motor "cogged" instead of turning smoothly.  I suspect it may have been some type of SCR control (which were also becoming popular in power packs at the time and I believe are common in lamp dimmers). I guess the upshot is, there's no guarantees, some dimmers/controls may work, some may not, you just have to try. Don P.S.  Dremels were around long before Walthers had them.  The company was founded in 1932, and the modern "moto-tool" first appeared in 1957.  (per Wiki) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ On 3/26/2014 5:01 AM, eriepacific@... wrote: Ralph,   Yes, some Dremel's have five speeds built into them, each one notched as a step up to the next speed rather than just one continuous speed adjustment dial as is found on a power pack.  I have two of these, probably at least 20 years old or so - one given to me as a gift by a friend not knowing I already had one.  While I don't know if Dremel tools were made prior to Walthers carrying them, the first appearance of them in Walthers' catalogs that I see was with the 1973 catalog -- and then, they offered three models -- the DRM260, DRM270 and DRM280, none of them having adjustable speed (they were rated for 30,000 rpm, at no load, appearing to be similar to yours).  Walthers 1974 catalog includes two new Dremel tools, the 370 and the 380, in addition to the previous none-adjustable models.  These two new model were adjustable Variable Speed Moto-Tools, rated at 5,000 through 25,000 rpm, in five 5,000 rpm intervals/steps.  All five models were continued through the ensuing years, with an additional non-variable model J245 being added in 1977, totaling six models during these years, into the 1980's.   When Dremel tools were first offered by Walthers, with only the three non-adjustable 30,000 rpm models being available, Dremel also made available their DRM219 Motor Speed Control box unit with a calibrated dial, to be used with your non-adjustable Dremel tool, and the two other non-adjustable models produced that year.  This appears to be what you have, with the separate control box unit.  This control unit was also continued at least into the 1990's, although the six Moto-Tools introduced through the 1970's were replaced.  By 1991, and possibly before, there were three different Moto-Tools -- the Single Speed 275 (@ 28,000 rpm), the Two Speed 285 (@ 15,000 rpm & 28,000 rpm) and the Variable Speed 395 (@ 5,000 rpm to 30,000 rpm).  A new (for 1991) Cordless 8508 Freewheeler Moto-Tool became available that year.  In 1992, there was also a new Minimite (# 750) Moto-Tool added to the other models already being offered at that time, which was another cordless model.  Additionally, another Freewheeler (# 850) Cordless model came out in 1992, a rechargeable model.      BTW, X-Acto came out with their # 600 12 Volt 'Mini-Drill" also by 1973, which could grind and polish, besides drilling.  It was rated for 9000 rpm and operated off of a transformer or car battery (with a separately available #602 cigarette lighter power cord); by 1977, it was gone even though their series (# 604, and then #376-cordless) of "Power Plus" drills continued for a while.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/25/2014 7:57:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Alpvalsys@... writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: < Dremel tools have their own speed control, but there may be times when running it even slower than the first notch becomes handy.... -------------------- Ray,   Are you thinking of the speed control built into some Dremel motor tools?  I've had a Dremel solid state speed control for over 25 years, and there are no notches; you just plug the tool's cord into it (plug the control's cord into an outlet) and dial in the speed you want.  I can turn mine down to probably 1 rpm.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22368	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part

Fred, As for size... I'd say they are approx 1.25 inch x 1 inch. A guess from here at work.  I was thinking part of a gondola or hopper car myself, but I can't seem to find any they use it.   Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:40 AM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:             Size?    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com; yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:09:16 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sean Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22369	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Always glad to see your input Don.  There's a good chance that the Dremel solid state speed control box that Ralph mentions would probably have worked better that the SCR control you bought, since it was made for the tool.  While these Dremel DRM219 Speed control boxes like Ralph has are really useful for varying the speed of these tools, the foot-controlled sewing machine device would seem to be even more useful as the modeler would not need to take a hand off of his work to readjust a dial when in the middle of doing some operation.  There are times when, even though a certain slow speed may be set on the Dremel's speed control box before starting the work, part way into the work it becomes apparent that the tool would be more helpful if the speed were increase (or decreased even more), without having to stop working and just continue what he was doing.  Not leaving off on some kinds of work as you're getting into it helps with finishing it the way you intended it done.   I hadn't known that Dremel started in 1932 (thanks for the info).  If I'd have thumbed through some earlier MR's I may have seen ads for them, but then, I did check the Model RR Equipment Corp. catalogs from the early 50's and found that they didn't offer them yet either.  If the moto-tools were advertised in the magazines as early as 1957, which would seem likely since that's when they first came out, I just don't remember them.      Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/26/2014 7:05:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, don.dellmann@... writes:   If I may toss a comment into this discussion, FWIW my first Dremel back in the 70's was a single speed.  I bought a "speed control" from the hardware store that was intended for electric drills.  It did run the Dremel slowly, but not smoothly.  The motor "cogged" instead of turning smoothly.  I suspect it may have been some type of SCR control (which were also becoming popular in power packs at the time and I believe are common in lamp dimmers). I guess the upshot is, there's no guarantees, some dimmers/controls may work, some may not, you just have to try. Don P.S.  Dremels were around long before Walthers had them.  The company was founded in 1932, and the modern "moto-tool" first appeared in 1957.  (per Wiki) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ On 3/26/2014 5:01 AM, eriepacific@... wrote: Ralph,   Yes, some Dremel's have five speeds built into them, each one notched as a step up to the next speed rather than just one continuous speed adjustment dial as is found on a power pack.  I have two of these, probably at least 20 years old or so - one given to me as a gift by a friend not knowing I already had one.  While I don't know if Dremel tools were made prior to Walthers carrying them, the first appearance of them in Walthers' catalogs that I see was with the 1973 catalog -- and then, they offered three models -- the DRM260, DRM270 and DRM280, none of them having adjustable speed (they were rated for 30,000 rpm, at no load, appearing to be similar to yours).  Walthers 1974 catalog includes two new Dremel tools, the 370 and the 380, in addition to the previous none-adjustable models.  These two new model were adjustable Variable Speed Moto-Tools, rated at 5,000 through 25,000 rpm, in five 5,000 rpm intervals/steps.  All five models were continued through the ensuing years, with an additional non-variable model J245 being added in 1977, totaling six models during these years, into the 1980's.   When Dremel tools were first offered by Walthers, with only the three non-adjustable 30,000 rpm models being available, Dremel also made available their DRM219 Motor Speed Control box unit with a calibrated dial, to be used with your non-adjustable Dremel tool, and the two other non-adjustable models produced that year.  This appears to be what you have, with the separate control box unit.  This control unit was also continued at least into the 1990's, although the six Moto-Tools introduced through the 1970's were replaced.  By 1991, and possibly before, there were three different Moto-Tools -- the Single Speed 275 (@ 28,000 rpm), the Two Speed 285 (@ 15,000 rpm & 28,000 rpm) and the Variable Speed 395 (@ 5,000 rpm to 30,000 rpm).  A new (for 1991) Cordless 8508 Freewheeler Moto-Tool became available that year.  In 1992, there was also a new Minimite (# 750) Moto-Tool added to the other models already being offered at that time, which was another cordless model.  Additionally, another Freewheeler (# 850) Cordless model came out in 1992, a rechargeable model.      BTW, X-Acto came out with their # 600 12 Volt 'Mini-Drill" also by 1973, which could grind and polish, besides drilling.  It was rated for 9000 rpm and operated off of a transformer or car battery (with a separately available #602 cigarette lighter power cord); by 1977, it was gone even though their series (# 604, and then #376-cordless) of "Power Plus" drills continued for a while.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/25/2014 7:57:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Alpvalsys@... writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: < Dremel tools have their own speed control, but there may be times when running it even slower than the first notch becomes handy.... -------------------- Ray,   Are you thinking of the speed control built into some Dremel motor tools?  I've had a Dremel solid state speed control for over 25 years, and there are no notches; you just plug the tool's cord into it (plug the control's cord into an outlet) and dial in the speed you want.  I can turn mine down to probably 1 rpm.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22370	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part

Sean,   Having done a tad of research for these parts I doubt they would be hopper doors as most of them had tapered sides (edges). I have convinced myself that they are not Ulrich.   I think they are some sort of hatch such as for a reefer or loading hatch for a covered hopper. If so I’d hazard a guess that they are more likely to be O scale parts.   John Hagen     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 7:46 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part     Fred, As for size... I'd say they are approx 1.25 inch x 1 inch. A guess from here at work.  I was thinking part of a gondola or hopper car myself, but I can't seem to find any they use it.   Sean   "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!   On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:40 AM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:             Size?    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com; yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:09:16 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sean Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22371	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Steam Engine

Attachments : Anyone interested in this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wilesco-Steam-Engine-Old/331162077554 Denis From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Holladay Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Steam Engine               Size?    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com; yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:09:16 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sean Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22372	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part

Attachments : Ulrich (2).jpg Hi John, I am not sure if I can agree that they are not to something Ulrich... They were included with this lot of stuff I have attached an image of. Every other part in the lot was part of something made by Ulrich and/or Circle Enterprises, Inc. (also made Ulrich trucks). All of the parts in this lot were either Ulrich truck parts, Ulrich GS gondola parts or Ulrich hopper & flat car coupler pockets. Approx 40-50 pounds worht of parts.  There was also a bag of these doors? If everything else was Ulrich, then why not these?    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:38 AM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:   Sean,   Having done a tad of research for these parts I doubt they would be hopper doors as most of them had tapered sides (edges). I have convinced myself that they are not Ulrich.   I think they are some sort of hatch such as for a reefer or loading hatch for a covered hopper. If so I’d hazard a guess that they are more likely to be O scale parts.   John Hagen     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 7:46 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part     Fred, As for size... I'd say they are approx 1.25 inch x 1 inch. A guess from here at work.  I was thinking part of a gondola or hopper car myself, but I can't seem to find any they use it.   Sean   "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!   On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:40 AM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:             Size?    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com; yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:09:16 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sean Sent from my iPhone

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22373	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]

Well that is a good question.   However, in my days of opening boxes, bags, barrels, totes and whatever full of parts in my 70 years, be them plane, train, automobile or wash machine parts, I have found at least as many surprises as I have what I was hoping to find.   I just think that a hatch, or hinged door, especially with one central hinge as the piece looks to have, that is near 8’9” X 10’8” is big for any sort of hatch and good sized for a door, Ergo I’m thinking O scale, maybe S, for the pieces. Going on such an assumption I am not aware of Ulrich in O scale albeit I can certainly be in error (and often am, ask the missus). So I would believe that maybe these are something cast by the same casting company? Or maybe a trail run of a possible O scale item that never made it to production?   Of course if they are indeed HO scale all bets are off for me.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:11 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]     [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hi John,   I am not sure if I can agree that they are not to something Ulrich... They were included with this lot of stuff I have attached an image of. Every other part in the lot was part of something made by Ulrich and/or Circle Enterprises, Inc. (also made Ulrich trucks). All of the parts in this lot were either Ulrich truck parts, Ulrich GS gondola parts or Ulrich hopper & flat car coupler pockets. Approx 40-50 pounds worht of parts.    There was also a bag of these doors? If everything else was Ulrich, then why not these?    Sean   "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!   On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:38 AM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:   Sean,   Having done a tad of research for these parts I doubt they would be hopper doors as most of them had tapered sides (edges). I have convinced myself that they are not Ulrich.   I think they are some sort of hatch such as for a reefer or loading hatch for a covered hopper. If so I’d hazard a guess that they are more likely to be O scale parts.   John Hagen     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 7:46 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part     Fred, As for size... I'd say they are approx 1.25 inch x 1 inch. A guess from here at work.  I was thinking part of a gondola or hopper car myself, but I can't seem to find any they use it.   Sean   "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!   On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:40 AM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:             Size?    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com; yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:09:16 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sean Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22374	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: FW: [vintageHO] Steam Engine

Attachments :     From: Denis Long [mailto:avanti78@...] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:53 PM To: 'vintageHO@yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Steam Engine   Anyone interested in this? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wilesco-Steam-Engine-Old/331162077554 Denis [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Holladay Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Steam Engine               Size?    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com; yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:09:16 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sean Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22375	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

On 26/03/14 23:01, eriepacific@... wrote: > By 1991, and possibly before, there were three different Moto-Tools > -- the Single Speed 275 (@ 28,000 rpm), the Two Speed 285 (@ 15,000 rpm& > 28,000 rpm) and the Variable Speed 395 (@ 5,000 rpm to 30,000 rpm). Interesting, Ray. I have a 396, the Instruction Book is dated Feb.89. 10-30,000 rpm, 230 volt, for the New Zealand market. Still runs perfectly, had an internal coupling replaced about a year ago. I use it exclusively with the flexible drive. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22376	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part

I'm right there with you John! Thanks for the reply!   Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:39 PM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:   Well that is a good question.   However, in my days of opening boxes, bags, barrels, totes and whatever full of parts in my 70 years, be them plane, train, automobile or wash machine parts, I have found at least as many surprises as I have what I was hoping to find.   I just think that a hatch, or hinged door, especially with one central hinge as the piece looks to have, that is near 8’9” X 10’8” is big for any sort of hatch and good sized for a door, Ergo I’m thinking O scale, maybe S, for the pieces. Going on such an assumption I am not aware of Ulrich in O scale albeit I can certainly be in error (and often am, ask the missus). So I would believe that maybe these are something cast by the same casting company? Or maybe a trail run of a possible O scale item that never made it to production?   Of course if they are indeed HO scale all bets are off for me.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:11 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]     [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hi John,   I am not sure if I can agree that they are not to something Ulrich... They were included with this lot of stuff I have attached an image of. Every other part in the lot was part of something made by Ulrich and/or Circle Enterprises, Inc. (also made Ulrich trucks). All of the parts in this lot were either Ulrich truck parts, Ulrich GS gondola parts or Ulrich hopper & flat car coupler pockets. Approx 40-50 pounds worht of parts.    There was also a bag of these doors? If everything else was Ulrich, then why not these?    Sean   "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!   On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:38 AM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:   Sean,   Having done a tad of research for these parts I doubt they would be hopper doors as most of them had tapered sides (edges). I have convinced myself that they are not Ulrich.   I think they are some sort of hatch such as for a reefer or loading hatch for a covered hopper. If so I’d hazard a guess that they are more likely to be O scale parts.   John Hagen     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 7:46 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part     Fred, As for size... I'd say they are approx 1.25 inch x 1 inch. A guess from here at work.  I was thinking part of a gondola or hopper car myself, but I can't seem to find any they use it.   Sean   "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!   On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:40 AM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:             Size?    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com; yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:09:16 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sean Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22377	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part

Hi John! I just figured it out... with the help of a fellow modeler I know from ebay.. They are Ulrich parts from their tripple-hopper.. They are the ends. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OLD-STOCK-HO-GUAGE-ALL-METAL-ULRICH-TRIPLE-HOPPER-CAR-MODEL-KIT-/301053969237?hash=item4618370355&nma=true&si=TjlBSAFL733fvHA48%252Fx%252FsSxYchA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557   Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 5:39 PM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:   Well that is a good question.   However, in my days of opening boxes, bags, barrels, totes and whatever full of parts in my 70 years, be them plane, train, automobile or wash machine parts, I have found at least as many surprises as I have what I was hoping to find.   I just think that a hatch, or hinged door, especially with one central hinge as the piece looks to have, that is near 8’9” X 10’8” is big for any sort of hatch and good sized for a door, Ergo I’m thinking O scale, maybe S, for the pieces. Going on such an assumption I am not aware of Ulrich in O scale albeit I can certainly be in error (and often am, ask the missus). So I would believe that maybe these are something cast by the same casting company? Or maybe a trail run of a possible O scale item that never made it to production?   Of course if they are indeed HO scale all bets are off for me.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 3:11 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]     [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hi John,   I am not sure if I can agree that they are not to something Ulrich... They were included with this lot of stuff I have attached an image of. Every other part in the lot was part of something made by Ulrich and/or Circle Enterprises, Inc. (also made Ulrich trucks). All of the parts in this lot were either Ulrich truck parts, Ulrich GS gondola parts or Ulrich hopper & flat car coupler pockets. Approx 40-50 pounds worht of parts.    There was also a bag of these doors? If everything else was Ulrich, then why not these?    Sean   "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!   On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 11:38 AM, John Hagen <sprinthag@...> wrote:   Sean,   Having done a tad of research for these parts I doubt they would be hopper doors as most of them had tapered sides (edges). I have convinced myself that they are not Ulrich.   I think they are some sort of hatch such as for a reefer or loading hatch for a covered hopper. If so I’d hazard a guess that they are more likely to be O scale parts.   John Hagen     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 7:46 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part     Fred, As for size... I'd say they are approx 1.25 inch x 1 inch. A guess from here at work.  I was thinking part of a gondola or hopper car myself, but I can't seem to find any they use it.   Sean   "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!   On Wednesday, March 26, 2014 2:40 AM, Fred Holladay <fvh2@...> wrote:             Size?    To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com; yardbirdtrains@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2014 21:09:16 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Hey guys. It's been a while for me. I have a bag of some ~300 of these parts and I am not sure if they are Ulrich parts or what they go to. I know I have seen them before. Any ideas? Thanks in advance. Sean Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22378	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

Hi Doug,   It's tools like this that don't make it into the catalogs here in the States, when they're made to operate on an entirely different power source.  Standardized power throughout the States is 110 - 120 Volt, as you may already know, so a tool that needs 230 Volts would most likely never sell here, unless the modeler runs it from his electric clothes drier outlet.  Current coming into any home here, before the circuit breaker box, is 220 - 240 Volt -- serviced as two separate 110 - 120 Volt lines.  Higher voltage appliances, like an electric clothes drier using double the "standard" voltage, just has both of the 110- 120 Volt lines going to it, via a very different receptacle.  With your model 396 though, we have to wonder what else was offered by Dremel and other companies that would not have been offered here.  I fined it interesting that the rpm's start at 10,000, apparently because of the much higher voltage input.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/26/2014 7:04:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, digbee@... writes:   On 26/03/14 23:01, eriepacific@... wrote: > By 1991, and possibly before, there were three different Moto-Tools > -- the Single Speed 275 (@ 28,000 rpm), the Two Speed 285 (@ 15,000 rpm& > 28,000 rpm) and the Variable Speed 395 (@ 5,000 rpm to 30,000 rpm). Interesting, Ray. I have a 396, the Instruction Book is dated Feb.89. 10-30,000 rpm, 230 volt, for the New Zealand market. Still runs perfectly, had an internal coupling replaced about a year ago. I use it exclusively with the flexible drive. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22379	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/26/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Ulrich? HO Part

Attachments : S_57.jpg Yep, there they are in all their glory.   I looked at the instructions for their three bay hopper on hoseeker and did not see them. I just rechecked and still did not see them but I believe they are actually slope sheets! The ends are cast as part of the under frame from what I can tell from the photos and the crappy instruction sheet. See attachment. They are placed where the arrow is pointing.   I had one of those cars for a couple of years and just sold it at a recent swap meet otherwise I’d have looked to check it out. I do have a couple of their offset hopper and a composite gon which I did look to check.   Well, like I said, if they do turn out to be HO all my bets are off.   So with all those bags of Ulrich casting are you going to be able to offer some Ulrich casting sets?   Those babies still draw attention on eBay and at swaps.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Naylor Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2014 9:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Mystery Ulrich? HO Part     Hi John! I just figured it out... with the help of a fellow modeler I know from ebay.. They are Ulrich parts from their tripple-hopper.. They are the ends. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OLD-STOCK-HO-GUAGE-ALL-METAL-ULRICH-TRIPLE-HOPPER-CAR-MODEL-KIT-/301053969237?hash=item4618370355&nma=true&si=TjlBSAFL733fvHA48%252Fx%252FsSxYchA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557   Sean   "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22380	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rheostat vs. Variac

On 27/03/14 17:19, eriepacific@... wrote: > It's tools like this that don't make it into the catalogs here in the > States, when they're made to operate on an entirely different power source. > Standardized power throughout the States is 110 - 120 Volt, as you may > already know, so a tool that needs 230 Volts would most likely never sell here, > unless the modeler runs it from his electric clothes drier outlet. Current > coming into any home here, before the circuit breaker box, is 220 - 240 > Volt -- serviced as two separate 110 - 120 Volt lines. Higher voltage > appliances, like an electric clothes drier using double the "standard" voltage, > just has both of the 110- 120 Volt lines going to it, via a very different > receptacle. With your model 396 though, we have to wonder what else was > offered by Dremel and other companies that would not have been offered here. I > fined it interesting that the rpm's start at 10,000, apparently because of > the much higher voltage input. Hi Ray. Yes. I'm aware of the voltage differences, this means that we have to be careful when buying electrical gear from the US. Or we can run through a 240 > 110 transformer, which is not too much of a problem. Also mentioned in my Instruction Book for the 396 is the Model 276 which appears to be a single-speed operating at 30,000 rpm. The actual code numbers given on the Book are 396/3960 and 276/2760 - but I don't know the significance of the second part of the number.. I recall that the price on my 396 was around NZ$285, which was a lot of money in those days! 25 years ago.. I'd wanted one for some time, and finally splashed out. ATB. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22381	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: FW: [vintageHO] Steam Engine

> Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Steam Engine > > Size? From the box in the background about 10" x 10" base Howard Garner --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22382	From: david_helber	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

I just discovered some great Marn-O-Stat photos from 2012 in the Photo section. Six feet of Marnold power panels. They belong to trainsnwrcs, who wrote the first message in this old thread in 2011.  Yah-hah!  If I had made that find, I'd feel compelled to add a room onto the house just to build a layout that needed that much retroUberCool control panel. If you're still reading the forum, trainsnwrcs, how did it work out?  -- D ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <idioticyahoo@...> wrote : Just got home with 6 or 7 feet of Marn-O-Stat. Been considering doing some 2-rail DC stuff, needed a pack, got a power supply, at least 4 throttles, reversers, 2 or 3 gauge sets, and a power load selector. Now I gotta set it all up. Fun!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22383	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

If I’d of been lucky enough to get such a deal I would find away to use it on HO Timesaver switching game/module. It would be a tad of a challenge though as the game is just 6 foot long and folds in the middle. No problem with the length but folding that Marn-O-Stat set up will likely be real slice.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dnhelber@... Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:06 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat     I just discovered some great Marn-O-Stat photos from 2012 in the Photo section. Six feet of Marnold power panels. They belong to trainsnwrcs, who wrote the first message in this old thread in 2011.  Yah-hah!  If I had made that find, I'd feel compelled to add a room onto the house just to build a layout that needed that much retroUberCool control panel. If you're still reading the forum, trainsnwrcs, how did it work out?  -- D ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <idioticyahoo@...> wrote : Just got home with 6 or 7 feet of Marn-O-Stat. Been considering doing some 2-rail DC stuff, needed a pack, got a power supply, at least 4 throttles, reversers, 2 or 3 gauge sets, and a power load selector. Now I gotta set it all up. Fun!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22384	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Hi John, Most timesavers that I have ever seen, set the throttle to one speed and just use a forward-off-reverse switch to run the loco through the moves.  Our division has one that we setup at train shows and let the kids go through set outs and pick ups and it works really well when no one changes the throttle setting.  We use an MRC power pack for this. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:16:49 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat   If I’d of been lucky enough to get such a deal I would find away to use it on HO Timesaver switching game/module. It would be a tad of a challenge though as the game is just 6 foot long and folds in the middle. No problem with the length but folding that Marn-O-Stat set up will likely be real slice.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dnhelber@... Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:06 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat     I just discovered some great Marn-O-Stat photos from 2012 in the Photo section. Six feet of Marnold power panels. They belong to trainsnwrcs, who wrote the first message in this old thread in 2011.  Yah-hah!  If I had made that find, I'd feel compelled to add a room onto the house just to build a layout that needed that much retroUberCool control panel. If you're still reading the forum, trainsnwrcs, how did it work out?  -- D ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <idioticyahoo@...> wrote : Just got home with 6 or 7 feet of Marn-O-Stat. Been considering doing some 2-rail DC stuff, needed a pack, got a power supply, at least 4 throttles, reversers, 2 or 3 gauge sets, and a power load selector. Now I gotta set it all up. Fun!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22385	From: david_helber	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: New Header Photo

To the Moderators: I'd like to see the default Yahoo header photo on the group's web pages (currently a bunch of straw hats) replaced with something that represents this group better. I've put a suggested image in a new Photos folder named Header Photo. You're welcome to grab it and use it immediately if it is technically suitable. I've left the folder open to changes by anyone, so if anyone else has a photo or image they think would be good, please add it to the folder.  Please remember, that only a fairly high-res photo will work, and you will need to crop it to (or close to) the right width-to-height proportions. The current photo is appr. 1000px by 250px - that's a 4-to-1 proportion. If your photo is not at least 500 pixels wide to begin with, it's going to get very fuzzy when enlarged to 1000 px.  Remember also that the white type for the group's name and membership is going to go in the lower left corner, so there shouldn't be anything important, or white, or confusingly mottled there. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22386	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Vic,   I’ve been taking this thing to shows since 1982! I ended up building a transistor throttle for it with a removable knob for the potentiometer so once the speed was set, the user couldn’t change it. I still have it but I usually just use my Spectrum power supply. I built a control box in small a project box from Radio Shack that connects to the board with a coiled phone cord and phone jacks. It has a SPST reversing switch and a momentary contact on/off push button for power. That is all the control the operator has except for the Caboose Industries ground throws and the extended length, round toothpicks used to uncouple.   It hasn’t been used much in recent years, seldom shows anymore, mainly just for my personal pleasure. One of the local clubs has one that gets used by the kids at Trainfest and some other shows in the area. After having it 31 years I broke the hinges while moving last year. I have new, improved hinges that will go on it one of these days as I still like using it and, since I am now in a senior apartment, it is the only “layout” I have.   I took it to Trainfest for 20 + years and for the first 10 or so ran a very serious contest with it, complete with prizes donated by the likes of Walthers, Kalmbach and Local Hobby Shops.   The remark was sort of a humorous statement of how much I always liked the Marn-O-Power units we (dad, brother and I) had on our home layout way back when. Good stuff and I recently purchased one off eBay for my personal use.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Marn-O-Stat     Hi John, Most timesavers that I have ever seen, set the throttle to one speed and just use a forward-off-reverse switch to run the loco through the moves.  Our division has one that we setup at train shows and let the kids go through set outs and pick ups and it works really well when no one changes the throttle setting.  We use an MRC power pack for this. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22387	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

On 3/27/2014 2:18 PM, dnhelber@... wrote: To the Moderators: I'd like to see the default Yahoo header photo on the group's web pages (currently a bunch of straw hats) replaced with something that represents this group better. I've put a suggested image in a new Photos folder named Header Photo. You're welcome to grab it and use it immediately if it is technically suitable. I've left the folder open to changes by anyone, so if anyone else has a photo or image they think would be good, please add it to the folder.  Please remember, that only a fairly high-res photo will work, and you will need to crop it to (or close to) the right width-to-height proportions. The current photo is appr. 1000px by 250px - that's a 4-to-1 proportion. If your photo is not at least 500 pixels wide to begin with, it's going to get very fuzzy when enlarged to 1000 px.  Remember also that the white type for the group's name and membership is going to go in the lower left corner, so there shouldn't be anything important, or white, or confusingly mottled there. -- D Thanks.  I've been in a quandary what to do with that.  Since Yahoo so totally messed up the groups it's been a bear just getting the everyday functions back. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22388	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

> I've been in a quandary what to do with that. Since Yahoo so totally > messed up the groups it's been a bear just getting the everyday > functions back. > Don Agreed! Neo-nasty.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22389	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

On 28/03/14 6:06, dnhelber@... wrote: > I just discovered some great Marn-O-Stat photos https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/2051127679 from 2012 in the Photo section. Six feet of Marnold power panels. They belong to trainsnwrcs, who wrote the first message in this old thread in 2011. Yah-hah! > If I had made that find, I'd feel compelled to add a room onto the house just to build a layout that needed that much retroUberCool control panel. WOW! Now that's what I would call a 'Modular' layout! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22390	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

Doubly agreed; I've found Yahoo's Neo to be very unfriendly to use.  While this is not news, neither may a discussion on Yahoo sites necessarily be on topic, but I'm bringing this up only because I'm unable to view the mystery Ulrich parts that Sean set in photos of as an attachment.  When I click on the link, it brings me right to the Neo home page and that's as far as I can get.  For my purposes, the pics would be better sent as jpg, but Neo really lacks big time.  Sorry I couldn't get to try to I.D. those parts, Sean, but it wasn't for a lack of trying to access them.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/27/2014 9:12:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, digbee@... writes:  > I've been in a quandary what to do with that. Since Yahoo so totally > messed up the groups it's been a bear just getting the everyday > functions back. > Don Agreed! Neo-nasty.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand --- Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (3) .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22391	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

Reminds me of the mad scientist trying to zap life into the Frankenstein monster (LOL).   RFW     In a message dated 3/27/2014 9:13:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, digbee@... writes:   On 28/03/14 6:06, dnhelber@... wrote: > I just discovered some great Marn-O-Stat photos https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/2051127679 from 2012 in the Photo section. Six feet of Marnold power panels. They belong to trainsnwrcs, who wrote the first message in this old thread in 2011. Yah-hah! > If I had made that find, I'd feel compelled to add a room onto the house just to build a layout that needed that much retroUberCool control panel. WOW! Now that's what I would call a 'Modular' layout! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22392	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

On 28/03/14 8:18, dnhelber@... wrote: > To the Moderators: I'd like to see the default Yahoo header photo on > the group's web pages (currently a bunch of straw hats) replaced with > something that represents this group better. I've put a suggested > image in a new Photos folder named Header Photo. You're welcome to > grab it and use it immediately if it is technically suitable. I'd agree with this - we need something that typifies the group. I manged to do the Sakai and Seki group which I moderate quite easily - just a matter of bumbling through. But as for posting Files or Photographs - forget it! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22393	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

I run Win 7 and use Firefox as my browser. When I finally got switched to Neo maybe a month ago I will have to say I much preferred the previous system.   However, I do not find Neo to be all that unworkable. I have had no problem accessing any photos or any files. In fact I found that photos and files are now extremely easy to download to my computer where I can do virtually anything I want with them. This I look at as an improvement. Now if all the other things that need to be improved would be improved …..   I have found that it takes a bit of patience and taking the time to find out how to do what used to be so easy to do. Of course I can’t speak for others with different browsers but so far my Neo experience, while not all that enjoyable, is not all that bad either.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 11:24 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Header Photo     On 28/03/14 8:18, dnhelber@... wrote: > To the Moderators: I'd like to see the default Yahoo header photo on > the group's web pages (currently a bunch of straw hats) replaced with > something that represents this group better. I've put a suggested > image in a new Photos folder named Header Photo. You're welcome to > grab it and use it immediately if it is technically suitable. I'd agree with this - we need something that typifies the group. I manged to do the Sakai and Seki group which I moderate quite easily - just a matter of bumbling through. But as for posting Files or Photographs - forget it! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22394	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

On 28/03/14 18:03, John Hagen wrote: > However, I do not find Neo to be all that unworkable. I have had no problem > accessing any photos or any files. In fact I found that photos and files are > now extremely easy to download to my computer where I can do virtually > anything I want with them. This I look at as an improvement. Now if all the > other things that need to be improved would be improved ... But have you tried to *upload* any?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22395	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

Morning Doug,   Actually I have no idea of what time it in Auckland but it’s like 7:30 am in Wisconsin.   I hadn’t but I just did and it was no problem at all.   To the album “Johns Foibles” a added prototype photo of A&W 2-6-0 #71. This is a loco I ‘m developing a decal set for.   To a new album, “GBW_Photos” I uploaded a photo of GBW #102, an Alco S-1 that I built back in the 1980’s using a Cary shell on a heavily modified Athearn drive. The photo, if I recall correctly, was shot by Don Dellman at Trainfest.   These are not exactly what I would normally post there but they were easy to locate in my files and I wanted to try this system out.   The 201 photo will show up as it is new in a new album and the 71 should also show right up but if not the album can be located by using the “Search Photos” box and typing in “sprinthag”, my group name.   John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 2:10 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Header Photo     On 28/03/14 18:03, John Hagen wrote: > However, I do not find Neo to be all that unworkable. I have had no problem > accessing any photos or any files. In fact I found that photos and files are > now extremely easy to download to my computer where I can do virtually > anything I want with them. This I look at as an improvement. Now if all the > other things that need to be improved would be improved ... But have you tried to *upload* any?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22396	From: Wally Weart	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: Marn-O-Stat

I still have my original Marn-O-Stat and it works perfectly. This was my first power pack and while I've gone way beyond that for control of my layout, I keep it along with Penn Line rubber band drive 4 wheel engine just to remind me of my first layout Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22397	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

On 29/03/14 1:36, John Hagen wrote: > Morning Doug, > Actually I have no idea of what time it in Auckland but it's like 7:30 am in > Wisconsin. > I hadn't but I just did and it was no problem at all. Thanks John. As I write it's 13:15 Saturday here. My desktop internet world clock tells me its 17:15 Friday in Wisconsin.. I think we are about 17-18 hours ahead of you.. Which will all change when we stop Daylight Saving in a couple of weeks.. Just confusing for everybody, and my feeling is that it should be abandoned. One or two of our household clocks are still on last year's winter setting.. I'll check out your postings.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22398	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

My second car’s clock hasn’t been reset in about three years. Forgot how to and don’t have the manual for the 13 year old beast.   John   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Harris Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 7:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Header Photo     On 29/03/14 1:36, John Hagen wrote: > Morning Doug, > Actually I have no idea of what time it in Auckland but it's like 7:30 am in > Wisconsin. > I hadn't but I just did and it was no problem at all. Thanks John. As I write it's 13:15 Saturday here. My desktop internet world clock tells me its 17:15 Friday in Wisconsin.. I think we are about 17-18 hours ahead of you.. Which will all change when we stop Daylight Saving in a couple of weeks.. Just confusing for everybody, and my feeling is that it should be abandoned. One or two of our household clocks are still on last year's winter setting.. I'll check out your postings.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22399	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Header Photo

On 29/03/14 13:34, John Hagen wrote: > My second car's clock hasn't been reset in about three years. Forgot how to > and don't have the manual for the 13 year old beast. > I'll check out your postings.. Just off for my lunch.. OMS: Louis Armstrong Feature from NPR.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22400	From: anypaddler	Date: 3/29/2014
Subject: Re: Time (was New Header Photo)

Doug Harris wrote: < One or two of our household clocks are still on last year's winter setting. ---------------------- Going back to the days when railroads didn't recognize daylight saving time, leaving clocks on standard time was also called railroad time.  ;-)   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22401	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 3/29/2014
Subject: Re: Time (was New Header Photo)

Hi Ralph, Living on the old NY&NE (NH) commuter territory, every spring and fall the railroad would canvas the passengers as to what they wanted to do about the train times. This stopped when the railroads finally changed to daylight savings time for their operations. I have a clock radio that will not change times so I think it must be stuck on RR time. Joel Holmes > Doug Harris wrote: > < One or two of our household clocks are still on last year's winter > setting. > ---------------------- > Going back to the days when railroads didn't recognize daylight saving > time, leaving clocks on standard time was also called railroad time. ;-) > > Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22402	From: david_helber	Date: 3/29/2014
Subject: Mystery Old Time Cars (prob.OT-not vintage)

I've put up a temporary album in PHOTOS - Mystery OT to ID. Sorry for some of the photo quality.  Though these almost certainly aren't vintage manufacture, I'd appreciate it if someone could identify them and tell me a little about them. I got them in a lot at a train show and the dealer couldn't tell me anything about them. They're marked as Maintenance of Way cars and all but one are short late-19th C styles with rather simply-molded truss-rods and fabricated trucks (arch-bar, I think). They're simply- and cleanly-molded plastic, looking a bit toylike, but quite heavy thanks to a metal chassis-plate. There are   - Two old time boxcars with sliding doors and plastic crates permanently attached on the floor inside. The doors are lacking in detail.   - One low-side gondola with a pile of grey material permanently attached to the floor at one end.   - One flat car.  These four have a blank metal plate on the underside with no manufacturer's name. All have 19th century style fabricated trucks molded out of a kind of bronze/copper metallic plastic. All have truss rods, and odd couplers which I think are IHC Magic-Mate. The corner steps are there, but do not project very far down - I'd guess, in order to minimize breakage. The red is a very bright orangey-pinky red. It is very uniform and smoothly applied (though some of the photos got pixellated and make it look splotchy). There is also a caboose with a highly arched cupola. Though the molding, printing, and paint look as though it is part of the same series, the underframe is different - molded with more detail, no truss-rods, and different style coupler boxes. It has a horn-hook on one end and a Magic Mate on the other. These give the impression of being part of a toy set (maybe it's just the smooth bright paint), but the weight, couplers, good proportions, scale lengths, and accurate trucks, MOW and T&NO markings, and separate roofwalks seem to indicate a hobby product. I'd guess they were IHC-imported from the couplers, but IHC already has an old-time equipment line, so why these? And does anybody know who made them and what was the marketing story? Was there a loco? I've been largely out of the hobby for about twenty years, and am a bit vague on modern products. Since these probably are not vintage, they're Off Topic for the group, and I can take down the PHOTOS folder once they've been IDed. Thanks for any help. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22403	From: david_helber	Date: 3/29/2014
Subject: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

I was headed out of a recent local train show when I spotted an 0-6-0T (I'm a dead sucker for short tank engines). The table was sparse, with some very old boxed brass, and some loose vintage equipment set out in lines like trains. The fellow didn't seem like a dealer, more like someone selling off an older relative's collection. My little switcher was sitting at the head of a line of five or six freight cars. She was charmingly primitive, and all-metal. The nearly pristine paint hid the boiler material, but the driver retainer was a simple brass sheet, notched for the gear. Old old school. The jeweled headlights and markers caught my eye. EuroJapanese slope-down fronts on the side tanks, but otherwise very American.  I've never been a brass guy, and I couldn't recall specifically seeing it before, but a little voice whispered "Tenshodo" in my head. (Maybe it was the obvious Tenshodo boxes at the end of the table). "How much for the little tank engine?"  "You just want the engine?" - he seemed disappointed. I hadn't even looked at anything else; I have all the freight cars I'll ever need (for that matter, I have all the tank engines I'll ever need too, but never mind that). Besides, I'd spent almost all my show money. I said "Yes - I have a bit of a thing for tank engines." He quietly replied "I guess ... ten dollars." Hoo-Hah! I reached for my wallet, and walked out with my new old 0-6-0.  When I researched it, I was amused to learn it is a Tenshodo. According to Sean Naylor, on this forum, it's the first Tenshodo engine ever imported into the US. That was 1954 or earlier. It's zamac, not brass, but nice examples are quite rare, and rather valuable, I gather. It's only one coupler and some pinpoint paint chips away from being in Like-New condition. I applied power and it ran immediately, and smoothly. Wowzers. Victory! A fascinating piece of PaleoHO history that's also a good runner - for a ten-spot. I began to hear the theme to "Rocky" playing faintly in the background. Then less faintly ... Researching the engine further, I learned that, unlike any Tenshodo engine I'd ever heard of, the little 0-6-0T had also been available, nicely boxed up with cars and track, in a set.  … a … set … … a … very rare … set … … with five or six ... freight ... cars.  … umm … NO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!! Aarghhh ... Okay, I'll probably never know for sure if those were the original set cars on that table. No use kicking yourself for something that's not only over and done, but which may not even be true. So I might as well forget about it and enjoy my little engine. Yet now, somehow everything is ... different.  But, wait a minute … hey, if I call the outfit that put on the show, could I get contact info for the tableholders in that part of the room?  Then start calling, "Hey, are you the fellow that had … and do you still … and would you … ?"  I dunno, sounds like a lot of trouble with small chance of success. And for what? To have to store more diddling freight cars - in order to add a theoretical hundred dollars or two (minus expenses) to the theoretical value of my chaotic HO accumulation? Ehhhh... Still, it seems sad to let a rare set be broken up if it could be preserved, you know, for posterity ... Nah.  The payoff's too uncertain, and I'm far too lazy. I think. -- David  Photos of the little zinc heartbreaker are in the David's Vintage Junkarola folder along with some catalog images. Photos of the set (sigh) are in Marxtuba's Tenshodo Set in Wooden Box folder.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22404	From: Doug Harris	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

On 30/03/14 18:31, dnhelber@... wrote: > I was headed out of a recent local train show when I spotted an 0-6-0T (I'm a dead sucker for short tank engines). The table was sparse, with some very old boxed brass, and some loose vintage equipment set out in lines like trains. The fellow didn't seem like a dealer, more like someone selling off an older relative's collection. My little switcher was sitting at the head of a line of five or six freight cars. She was charmingly primitive, and all-metal. The nearly pristine paint hid the boiler material, but the driver retainer was a simple brass sheet, notched for the gear. Old old school. The jeweled headlights and markers caught my eye. EuroJapanese slope-down fronts on the side tanks, but otherwise very American. > I've never been a brass guy, and I couldn't recall specifically seeing it before, but a little voice whispered "Tenshodo" in my head. (Maybe it was the obvious Tenshodo boxes at the end of the table). > "How much for the little tank engine?" > "You just want the engine?" - he seemed disappointed. I hadn't even looked at anything else; I have all the freight cars I'll ever need (for that matter, I have all the tank engines I'll ever need too, but never mind that). Besides, I'd spent almost all my show money. I said "Yes - I have a bit of a thing for tank engines." He quietly replied "I guess ... ten dollars." Hoo-Hah! I reached for my wallet, and walked out with my new old 0-6-0. > When I researched it, I was amused to learn it is a Tenshodo. According to Sean Naylor, on this forum, it's the first Tenshodo engine ever imported into the US. That was 1954 or earlier. It's zamac, not brass, but nice examples are quite rare, and rather valuable, I gather. It's only one coupler and some pinpoint paint chips away from being in Like-New condition. I applied power and it ran immediately, and smoothly. Wowzers. Victory! A fascinating piece of PaleoHO history that's also a good runner - for a ten-spot. I began to hear the theme to "Rocky" playing faintly in the background. Then less faintly ... > Researching the engine further, I learned that, unlike any Tenshodo engine I'd ever heard of, the little 0-6-0T had also been available, nicely boxed up with cars and track, in a set. > … a … set … > … a … very rare … set … > … with five or six ... freight ... cars. > … umm … I think most of us know that story, and the feeling, David.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22405	From: jimwatermanboeing	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Jim Heckard

Anybody heard from Jim lately and how he is doing? And less importantly, does anyone know if Jim has been able to sell his collection and where it went if the answer is yes? Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22406	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: Jim Heckard

I did hear from him this month.  He is about the same.  There is a plan in place for his collection; he is still enjoying it now. Take care,   Chuck Higdon - check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Watermaj@... Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 7:39 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Jim Heckard     Anybody heard from Jim lately and how he is doing? And less importantly, does anyone know if Jim has been able to sell his collection and where it went if the answer is yes? Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22407	From: Tertius	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: FLEISCHMANN BALDWIN DIESEL 1340

Dear Members,   Thank you for your comments on Fleischmann in South Africa and about your need for older Fleischmann spares. I am grateful to hear I am not alone. No doubt someone in Europe is a specialist in Fleischmann and probably knows where to get the older spares we are looking for. If only we could find them!   I have just acquired a second Fleischmann Baldwin Diesel only to discover that its couplings are attached to the body unlike my other one where they are screwed on to the bogies. Though the end handrails appear standard for both models, the screws holding them in place on the chassis are set further apart on the new arrival. It appears therefore that there were variations in manufacture during the time that Fleischmann made these models.   Model/toy trains in South Africa have an interesting history. Prior to the second world war, Hornby 0 Gauge dominated the market. From the fifties onwards other makes and 00 and HO appeared including Marklin and Fleischmann. In the late sixties and early seventies American models joined the British and European models.   For many years now model train enthusiasts in South Africa have had access to all the worlds major commercially made models resulting in a fairly even spread of interest in American, British and European model trains. In addition there is a contingent of modellers and collectors who concentrate on modelling and running  South African Railways.    In the late seventies and onwards Lima produced a substantial range of model trains which replicated in miniature the real trains to be found in South Africa. Some of these were accurate representations of the real thing while many were simply European or British models which were made to look South African. In recent times Frateschi have also offered South African liveried models.   From the nineties onwards niche manufacturers such as DJH manufactured highly accurate and expensive models of South African locomotives and rolling stock. Today there is a huge array of precision made models of South African locomotives, rolling stock and accessories available. Amongst these are CMD, SARM and a number of small home manufacturers who often produce limited runs of interesting South African items.   The larger cities all have small but active Clubs that promote model railways in South Africa. A national model railway convention is held every two years. The next is scheduled for 23-27 September 2015. Its a great event to attend if you intend visiting this part of the world. Google South African model railway convention and a number of interesting links will give you an insight into model trains in this part of the world.   Regards       Tertius Coetzee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22408	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

hey Fella's: Trying to revive some interest in Model Trains after a very dark period. For whatever reason I've become interested in the ubiquitous EMD F-Units. In particular the many varied interpretations of the nose shape. At present I'm interested in an International F9 from the mid to late 50's. Has anyone got one or had any experience of them.... for example was "International" a manufacturer in Japan? Any help would be appreciated. Also a heads up I'm going to do a cull of my stuff so that I can bring some for those interested to the States (NY) around Easter so as to reduce the shipping costs... I'll try and get that list and a couple of group shots up tonight.... Thanks, Jeff (Gareth)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22409	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Attachments : Hello Jeff, Hope you continue moving yourself into the sunshine. Yes, ‘ N J International Custom Brass ‘ was an importer of brass models, by a number of Japanese manufacturers.  Generally, lower cost models. See:  http://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Products/Search?searchtext=nj+international   Also, check out ‘HO Seeker’.  I believe they have a listing under ‘International’, or ‘NJ………………….’. Welcome back, Denis From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jgpedwards@... Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:01 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?     hey Fella's:   Trying to revive some interest in Model Trains after a very dark period. For whatever reason I've become interested in the ubiquitous EMD F-Units.   In particular the many varied interpretations of the nose shape. At present I'm interested in an International F9 from the mid to late 50's. Has anyone got one or had any experience of them.... for example was "International" a manufacturer in Japan?   Any help would be appreciated.   Also a heads up I'm going to do a cull of my stuff so that I can bring some for those interested to the States (NY) around Easter so as to reduce the shipping costs... I'll try and get that list and a couple of group shots up tonight....   Thanks, Jeff (Gareth)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22410	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Attachments : Go for it!  You’ve already scored with the engine.  May as well try for a total rip-off, of this poor old guy, trying to sell his impoverished grandmother’s train set. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dnhelber@... Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:32 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!                 I was headed out of a recent local train show when I spotted an 0-6-0T (I'm a dead sucker for short tank engines). The table was sparse, with some very old boxed brass, and some loose vintage equipment set out in lines like trains. The fellow didn't seem like a dealer, more like someone selling off an older relative's collection. My little switcher was sitting at the head of a line of five or six freight cars. She was charmingly primitive, and all-metal. The nearly pristine paint hid the boiler material, but the driver retainer was a simple brass sheet, notched for the gear. Old old school. The jeweled headlights and markers caught my eye. EuroJapanese slope-down fronts on the side tanks, but otherwise very American.              I've never been a brass guy, and I couldn't recall specifically seeing it before, but a little voice whispered "Tenshodo" in my head. (Maybe it was the obvious Tenshodo boxes at the end of the table).             "How much for the little tank engine?"              "You just want the engine?" - he seemed disappointed. I hadn't even looked at anything else; I have all the freight cars I'll ever need (for that matter, I have all the tank engines I'll ever need too, but never mind that). Besides, I'd spent almost all my show money. I said "Yes - I have a bit of a thing for tank engines." He quietly replied "I guess ... ten dollars." Hoo-Hah! I reached for my wallet, and walked out with my new old 0-6-0.              When I researched it, I was amused to learn it is a Tenshodo. According to Sean Naylor, on this forum, it's the first Tenshodo engine ever imported into the US. That was 1954 or earlier. It's zamac, not brass, but nice examples are quite rare, and rather valuable, I gather. It's only one coupler and some pinpoint paint chips away from being in Like-New condition. I applied power and it ran immediately, and smoothly. Wowzers. Victory! A fascinating piece of PaleoHO history that's also a good runner - for a ten-spot. I began to hear the theme to "Rocky" playing faintly in the background. Then less faintly ...             Researching the engine further, I learned that, unlike any Tenshodo engine I'd ever heard of, the little 0-6-0T had also been available, nicely boxed up with cars and track, in a set.  … a … set … … a … very rare … set …   … with five or six ... freight ... cars.  … umm …   NO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!! Aarghhh ... Okay, I'll probably never know for sure if those were the original set cars on that table. No use kicking yourself for something that's not only over and done, but which may not even be true. So I might as well forget about it and enjoy my little engine. Yet now, somehow everything is ... different.              But, wait a minute … hey, if I call the outfit that put on the show, could I get contact info for the tableholders in that part of the room?  Then start calling, "Hey, are you the fellow that had … and do you still … and would you … ?"              I dunno, sounds like a lot of trouble with small chance of success. And for what? To have to store more diddling freight cars - in order to add a theoretical hundred dollars or two (minus expenses) to the theoretical value of my chaotic HO accumulation? Ehhhh...                 Still, it seems sad to let a rare set be broken up if it could be preserved, you know, for posterity ...   Nah.  The payoff's too uncertain, and I'm far too lazy.   I think.   -- David  Photos of the little zinc heartbreaker are in the David's Vintage Junkarola folder along with some catalog images. Photos of the set (sigh) are in Marxtuba's Tenshodo Set in Wooden Box folder.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22411	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Jeff,   As far as I know, International did not produce an F9.  In checking through my IMP catalogs through the '50's they made FT's and F7's, A & B units.  In their FT models, they made them built, painted and lettered for ATSF, NYC, PRR, CP, GN, CN and ERIE plus an unpainted, undecorated kit. In F7's they made them built, painted and lettered for ATSF, NYC, PRR, UP, GN, NP, ERIE, GN and CNJ plus an unpainted, undecorated kit.  Tenshodo may have made an F9, but generally anything that Tenshodo made, they'd supply IMP with.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/30/2014 11:01:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   hey Fella's: Trying to revive some interest in Model Trains after a very dark period. For whatever reason I've become interested in the ubiquitous EMD F-Units. In particular the many varied interpretations of the nose shape. At present I'm interested in an International F9 from the mid to late 50's. Has anyone got one or had any experience of them.... for example was "International" a manufacturer in Japan? Any help would be appreciated. Also a heads up I'm going to do a cull of my stuff so that I can bring some for those interested to the States (NY) around Easter so as to reduce the shipping costs... I'll try and get that list and a couple of group shots up tonight.... Thanks, Jeff (Gareth)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22412	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Jeff,   In checking further, Tenshodo DID make an F9, although I still don't believe International contracted with Tenshodo to resell this model under the IMP name..   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/30/2014 11:01:15 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   hey Fella's: Trying to revive some interest in Model Trains after a very dark period. For whatever reason I've become interested in the ubiquitous EMD F-Units. In particular the many varied interpretations of the nose shape. At present I'm interested in an International F9 from the mid to late 50's. Has anyone got one or had any experience of them.... for example was "International" a manufacturer in Japan? Any help would be appreciated. Also a heads up I'm going to do a cull of my stuff so that I can bring some for those interested to the States (NY) around Easter so as to reduce the shipping costs... I'll try and get that list and a couple of group shots up tonight.... Thanks, Jeff (Gareth)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22413	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Denis have a look here: http://hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg13.jpg -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22414	From: david_helber	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Chuckle. Yeah, Denis. That's part of the problem. When I don't know what it is, and he doesn't know what it is, we're both making our best guesses, and we take our lumps or our victories. All part of the game. So I can occasionally get a hundred dollar toy for ten bucks and not feel bad about it. But now I have an idea that bigger money might be involved, and won't feel so good about getting the cars for a similar markdown. "Oh, and say, do you have that wooden set box with the Tenshodo plate on the end? I'll go ten on all the cars, if you throw that in. Can you deliver to my house?" A lot of the fun goes out of it when you're just coldly fleecing some poor guy. Well, for me, anyway. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22415	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

The roof dynamic grids on it, call out a late F3, together with the grills and vents on the side panels I'm sure others see this as well. Just felt it had to be stated. I thought this thread was after early brass F9's? Hopefully I'm not confused by following too many threads in my email today. I remember some later HO brass F-9's that around 1980 still got the F units nose and front cab windows wrong. Those were made to use the Bachmann F unit chassis that were massive cast bricks of diecast metal from Bachmanns Hong Kong production years. I don't know of any fabricated brass import models that got the EMD F nose and cab front correct......... It's strange how that became a constant over the decades. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:22 PM, <jgpedwards@...> wrote: Hey Denis have a look here: http://hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg13.jpg -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22416	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Mike I'm on the "F-ing" learning curve! ;-) sorry couldn't resist, particularly since I don't use the expression "for unlawful carnal knowledge" as has become too common. But more to the point, you're saying that the link to the Int'l F9 is actually an F3? And while we're on the topics did the F3/7/9 noses differ? Let's assume I include the FP vers as well. Thanks for the input btw... appreciated. Jeff On Mar 30, 2014 3:45 PM, "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> wrote:   The roof dynamic grids on it, call out a late F3, together with the grills and vents on the side panels I'm sure others see this as well. Just felt it had to be stated. I thought this thread was after early brass F9's? Hopefully I'm not confused by following too many threads in my email today. I remember some later HO brass F-9's that around 1980 still got the F units nose and front cab windows wrong. Those were made to use the Bachmann F unit chassis that were massive cast bricks of diecast metal from Bachmanns Hong Kong production years. I don't know of any fabricated brass import models that got the EMD F nose and cab front correct......... It's strange how that became a constant over the decades. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:22 PM, <jgpedwards@...> wrote: Hey Denis have a look here: http://hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg13.jpg -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22417	From: John Hagen	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Oh come on Mike.   You’re saying that all those Tenshodo F units with noses shaped like parakeets beaks weren’t correct? Egads, and all these years I thought that EMD had it wrong!   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 2:45 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?     The roof dynamic grids on it, call out a late F3, together with the grills and vents on the side panels I'm sure others see this as well. Just felt it had to be stated.   I thought this thread was after early brass F9's?   Hopefully I'm not confused by following too many threads in my email today.   I remember some later HO brass F-9's that around 1980 still got the F units nose and front cab windows wrong. Those were made to use the Bachmann F unit chassis that were massive cast bricks of diecast metal from Bachmanns Hong Kong production years.   I don't know of any fabricated brass import models that got the EMD F nose and cab front correct.........   It's strange how that became a constant over the decades. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (6) Visit Your Group ·         New Photos 11 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22418	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Jeff,   I'm glad to see that Larry had the needed info on his site.  Guessing that it had to be a very late 1950's IMP catalog or maybe even a 1960 (or later?).  GM's prototype EMD F9 were produced from February 1953 through May 1960.  As the prototype FT first came out in November of 1939 (through November 1945), and as IMP was still making them at least up through 1956, I have to wonder when IMP first started producing them.  At least they finally did become available by this manufacturer though, which is good to know.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/30/2014 2:22:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Denis have a look here: http://hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg13.jpg -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22419	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Attachments : Fascinating.  Larry’s got one heck of a site.  Plus, all the hobbyists that have contributed pics of their stuff. The nose profile looks pretty bulbous to me, and check out the hook & loop coupler type.  All you need is a screwdriver, and some luck.  Keep checking brass trains.com.  You can look up by importer, manufacturer, or type. I’ll look for one also, as a matter of fact, I think I had one, once.  Anyway, if I find one I’ll buy it, and send you a pic of it. Denis   Fr.om: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jgpedwards@... Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 2:22 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?     Hey Denis   have a look here:   http://hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg13.jpg   -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22420	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Attachments : Yes, Mike.  The search was for an F9.  When you search for a F9, you get a result titled, “ F9”. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Bauers Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 2:45 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?     The roof dynamic grids on it, call out a late F3, together with the grills and vents on the side panels I'm sure others see this as well. Just felt it had to be stated.   I thought this thread was after early brass F9's?   Hopefully I'm not confused by following too many threads in my email today.   I remember some later HO brass F-9's that around 1980 still got the F units nose and front cab windows wrong. Those were made to use the Bachmann F unit chassis that were massive cast bricks of diecast metal from Bachmanns Hong Kong production years.   I don't know of any fabricated brass import models that got the EMD F nose and cab front correct.........   It's strange how that became a constant over the decades. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone   On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:22 PM, <jgpedwards@...> wrote: Hey Denis   have a look here:   http://hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg13.jpg   -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22421	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Guys,   So IMP's F9 is turning out to be an F3?  I hadn't looked at that catalog page very closely, I only noticed "F9" printed in large type to the left of it.  Well, maybe they didn't make one after all ?  Strange that I never saw IMP list an F3 -- maybe this is why.  How about Tenshodo's "F9"? Is that true to the prototype?    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/30/2014 2:52:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Mike I'm on the "F-ing" learning curve! ;-) sorry couldn't resist, particularly since I don't use the expression "for unlawful carnal knowledge" as has become too common. But more to the point, you're saying that the link to the Int'l F9 is actually an F3? And while we're on the topics did the F3/7/9 noses differ? Let's assume I include the FP vers as well. Thanks for the input btw... appreciated. Jeff On Mar 30, 2014 3:45 PM, "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> wrote:   The roof dynamic grids on it, call out a late F3, together with the grills and vents on the side panels I'm sure others see this as well. Just felt it had to be stated. I thought this thread was after early brass F9's? Hopefully I'm not confused by following too many threads in my email today. I remember some later HO brass F-9's that around 1980 still got the F units nose and front cab windows wrong. Those were made to use the Bachmann F unit chassis that were massive cast bricks of diecast metal from Bachmanns Hong Kong production years. I don't know of any fabricated brass import models that got the EMD F nose and cab front correct......... It's strange how that became a constant over the decades. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:22 PM, <jgpedwards@...> wrote: Hey Denis have a look here: http://hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg13.jpg -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22422	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Attachments : I have the whole thing, I followed to that sale & bought the cars.  Found a box through another vendor. I would sell it for $10, add that to the delivery charge of $125.  Toodle-oo…Capt Q.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dnhelber@... Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 2:38 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!     Chuckle. Yeah, Denis. That's part of the problem.   When I don't know what it is, and he doesn't know what it is, we're both making our best guesses, and we take our lumps or our victories. All part of the game. So I can occasionally get a hundred dollar toy for ten bucks and not feel bad about it. But now I have an idea that bigger money might be involved, and won't feel so good about getting the cars for a similar markdown. "Oh, and say, do you have that wooden set box with the Tenshodo plate on the end? I'll go ten on all the cars, if you throw that in. Can you deliver to my house?" A lot of the fun goes out of it when you're just coldly fleecing some poor guy.   Well, for me, anyway.   -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22423	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Ray: I found it in the 1956 Int'l catalogue. That predates me by a bit.... I'd pursue one of them but at the moment my Doctor won't even let me spend the $20 Allowance a week I have  usually because I mislead her a bit about my money flow. Yes you heard that right, my Dr. I don't call her "Dr.Mom" for nothing! Love her to death though. :) Besides I have to pay for a Rapido F9B that I reserved and that will take some talking! ;) -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22424	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Sorting and culling...

Hey Guys: I'm paring things down that I have to simplify my life. In my case almost a medical necessity. In a photo folder called: 4 Sale-Jeff I have some photos that some of you may have seen .before perhaps not. I've sorted out some stuff and I'll take a few general photo's of things... Hopefully I'll have some stuff people are interested in? I can then take specific photo's.... I'm in Canada, but I travel to the US 4-5 times/yr and routinely bring stuff along to ship to people in the states to save them on shipping, so if you're interested let me know? I will be headed Stateside on the 16th of April. Oh and please email me off list!  Thanks... Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22425	From: rcjge	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hey Guys: Added Three group shots of some of the stuff I'm offering. I can do detail shots if you email me off list, I just don't like taking photo's. Any questions, well you know... The Hustler is New but partly disassembled to install the Ernst gear kit. The kit is part of it of course. The Pennsy F3 is a HI-F and in it's original Athearn Yellow box. I presume a Globe shell because of the single headlight.... The Boiler at the front right is a Roundhouse SF Boiler from their 2-6-2/4-6-0/2-8-0 series. allows a lot of options rather than the more common Harriman and Pennsy types. The Brass Mantua kit mid-right is a Brass Bobber caboose kit. The two Varney's; Consolie and Mike are both Super's but it would take a lot to pry those away from me. They are kinda generational cousins to my early Cast Iron Unimat DB200 Lathe. Btw, if any of you have a Unimat DB200 or S1000 I have a fret saw, power feed and round clamping surface (NOT the alloy face plate!) accessories for sale as well. Best, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22426	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

I think I can safely say that all F series as well as the E7-9 series and the FP's had the same nose and front cab. This brass nose most reminds me of the more bulb shaped E-2 UP City Of series. Even then the nose is too high. The cab itself reminds me of the 1939 Alco steam turbine as far as the front windows go. The nose would need to be longer for it. The Turbines nose is about as high with shortened cab front windows as this brass model has. There's a real family look to the F and E series locomotives, even to the earlier E units with their designed in streamlining of their longer noses. The freight F/ FP series always had the same standard nose and cab front. The earlier E series had distinctively longer noses, possibly to give them more of a deluxe look if not an 'at speed even when at rest' look. I'm hanging on to an old plastic ATT FT with its modeled shortened nose. While it's wrong, I like the look of it. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 30, 2014, at 2:52 PM, "J. Gareth Edwards" <jgpedwards@...> wrote: Hey Mike I'm on the "F-ing" learning curve! ;-) sorry couldn't resist, particularly since I don't use the expression "for unlawful carnal knowledge" as has become too common. But more to the point, you're saying that the link to the Int'l F9 is actually an F3? And while we're on the topics did the F3/7/9 noses differ? Let's assume I include the FP vers as well. Thanks for the input btw... appreciated. Jeff _

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22427	From: rdj6737	Date: 3/30/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Old Time Cars (prob.OT-not vintage)

The vintage work cars are from International Hobby Corporation which imported them from China over 15 years ago (box ©1997).  There were many body styles, originally for $5.98 for the flat to $9.98 for the derrick, but later for higher amounts, and came in a very wide range of road names.   The flat based cars are 30' over buffers, and the box and bunk cars are 31'.  It would have been nice if they had 5" wheelbase trucks instead of 5' 4".  They look like a rust brown Model Die Casting truck.  I cut out the coupler pin area and installed Kadee old-time 711 couplers. -  The 8 cars were flat, gondola, box, blacksmith, bunk, horizontal wooden tank on flat, derrick, and a rail and tie flat. -  Roads were B&O, PRR, DSP&P, SP, V&T, LS&MS, D&RGW, ATSF, CP (Central Pacific), MOW, USMRR, CPRWY (Canadian Pacific), P&R (Phil. & Rdg.), NYC&NH, IC, W&A (Western & Atlantic), O&A (Orange & Alexander) [sic], UP, LV, DL&W (Lackawanna), D&H, WABASH, CV (Central Vermont), and CRR of NJ.   The wood caboose looks to be an IHC variation of a Pennsylvania N6b caboose more commonly imported by Model Power from Yugoslavia.  MP put neat caboose leaf spring trucks on them.    See Penn cabooses 980804 and 981774 at: http://www.prrho.com/prr.htm Reynold ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <dnhelber@...> wrote: I've put up a temporary album in PHOTOS - Mystery OT to ID. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22428	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hey Guys: The Hustler with the ernst kit is spoken for... The other ERNST kit still in original package is still available. Anyone interested in unbuilt Ambroid kits? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22429	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hi Jeff,   I have to wonder if IMP very possible issued two -- or more -- different catalogs throughout the year 1956, as I have two 1956 IMP catalogs and neither of them show an F9 -- nor do any earlier IMP catalogs.  Unlike a number of U.S. H0 manufacturers back then which at least gave some indication of about when their catalogs were published when they had more than one per year, as far as I can see, IMP only printed the year on the cover. I'm glad you found that IMP did produce that model F unit though.  I understand about money being a little tight for you right now, but it might be something worth saving up for over time.  For that matter, if it doesn't need to be an F9, why don't you consider a Varney cast metal F3 ?  No matter what motor/truck version it is, they all ran quite well.  An early brass engine may not run all that great, unless you find one by a manufacturer more noted for better running.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 3/30/2014 3:50:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Ray: I found it in the 1956 Int'l catalogue. That predates me by a bit.... I'd pursue one of them but at the moment my Doctor won't even let me spend the $20 Allowance a week I have  usually because I mislead her a bit about my money flow. Yes you heard that right, my Dr. I don't call her "Dr.Mom" for nothing! Love her to death though. :) Besides I have to pay for a Rapido F9B that I reserved and that will take some talking! ;) -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22430	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hi Ray I have a pair of Varney F3's an AB combo both powered with a large flywheel system and the ability to change the gear ratio. They have a spindle pulley very like my Unimat Lathes. My interest in the Int'l F9 has to do with the "interpretations" of the nose profile and roofline/windows. They are a signatue characteristic of each variation. It's sorta a matter of collecting the error variations. I have a Rapido FP9A which is the most accurate F likely ever made. These guys used a 3D laser scanning technology to get the profile right which is fantastic but there is fun in anomalies of those that are not. A have a lot to learn about the F3/7/9's and their "phases". I often say I'm a lucky guy, so much yet still to learn. Best, Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 10:08 AM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Hi Jeff,   I have to wonder if IMP very possible issued two -- or more -- different catalogs throughout the year 1956, as I have two 1956 IMP catalogs and neither of them show an F9 -- nor do any earlier IMP catalogs.  Unlike a number of U.S. H0 manufacturers back then which at least gave some indication of about when their catalogs were published when they had more than one per year, as far as I can see, IMP only printed the year on the cover. I'm glad you found that IMP did produce that model F unit though.  I understand about money being a little tight for you right now, but it might be something worth saving up for over time.  For that matter, if it doesn't need to be an F9, why don't you consider a Varney cast metal F3 ?  No matter what motor/truck version it is, they all ran quite well.  An early brass engine may not run all that great, unless you find one by a manufacturer more noted for better running.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 3/30/2014 3:50:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Ray: I found it in the 1956 Int'l catalogue. That predates me by a bit.... I'd pursue one of them but at the moment my Doctor won't even let me spend the $20 Allowance a week I have  usually because I mislead her a bit about my money flow. Yes you heard that right, my Dr. I don't call her "Dr.Mom" for nothing! Love her to death though. :) Besides I have to pay for a Rapido F9B that I reserved and that will take some talking! ;) -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22431	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Jeff,   Since you mentioned that your 1956 IMP catalog offered the F9, I thought I'd take yet another look though both of mine for that year, in case I missed it.  I almost didn't see it again, as my right hand was gripping the binding edge (where "F9" is printed) slightly closed, while my left hand was thumbing through the pages.  The ad for the F9 -- found on page 14 -- is printed vertically, and does not draw my attention as do the normal horizontal ads on page 12 for the F7 and FT models.  I must have looked through these catalogs at least a dozen times, but overlooked the F9 each time because of its odd orientation, but they are there, albeit very easily missed.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 3/30/2014 3:50:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Ray: I found it in the 1956 Int'l catalogue. That predates me by a bit.... I'd pursue one of them but at the moment my Doctor won't even let me spend the $20 Allowance a week I have  usually because I mislead her a bit about my money flow. Yes you heard that right, my Dr. I don't call her "Dr.Mom" for nothing! Love her to death though. :) Besides I have to pay for a Rapido F9B that I reserved and that will take some talking! ;) -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22432	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Ray: The one I'm looking at is the one on HOseeker.. http://hoseeker.com/internationalmodelinc/internationalmodelincpg13.jpg I don't see any FT/7 entry's. can you scan the pages about the "F's" and email them to me? -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22433	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

David,   GO for it !   Get on the phone now and call the show producers.  You'll still be kicking yourself next week, wondering "what if ?"  Got nothing to lose except more money tied up in your accumulation if it is the rest of the set < g >.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/30/2014 3:58:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dnhelber@... writes:   I was headed out of a recent local train show when I spotted an 0-6-0T (I'm a dead sucker for short tank engines). The table was sparse, with some very old boxed brass, and some loose vintage equipment set out in lines like trains. The fellow didn't seem like a dealer, more like someone selling off an older relative's collection. My little switcher was sitting at the head of a line of five or six freight cars. She was charmingly primitive, and all-metal. The nearly pristine paint hid the boiler material, but the driver retainer was a simple brass sheet, notched for the gear. Old old school. The jeweled headlights and markers caught my eye. EuroJapanese slope-down fronts on the side tanks, but otherwise very American.  I've never been a brass guy, and I couldn't recall specifically seeing it before, but a little voice whispered "Tenshodo" in my head. (Maybe it was the obvious Tenshodo boxes at the end of the table). "How much for the little tank engine?"  "You just want the engine?" - he seemed disappointed. I hadn't even looked at anything else; I have all the freight cars I'll ever need (for that matter, I have all the tank engines I'll ever need too, but never mind that). Besides, I'd spent almost all my show money. I said "Yes - I have a bit of a thing for tank engines." He quietly replied "I guess ... ten dollars." Hoo-Hah! I reached for my wallet, and walked out with my new old 0-6-0.  When I researched it, I was amused to learn it is a Tenshodo. According to Sean Naylor, on this forum, it's the first Tenshodo engine ever imported into the US. That was 1954 or earlier. It's zamac, not brass, but nice examples are quite rare, and rather valuable, I gather. It's only one coupler and some pinpoint paint chips away from being in Like-New condition. I applied power and it ran immediately, and smoothly. Wowzers. Victory! A fascinating piece of PaleoHO history that's also a good runner - for a ten-spot. I began to hear the theme to "Rocky" playing faintly in the background. Then less faintly ... Researching the engine further, I learned that, unlike any Tenshodo engine I'd ever heard of, the little 0-6-0T had also been available, nicely boxed up with cars and track, in a set.  … a … set … … a … very rare … set … … with five or six ... freight ... cars.  … umm … NO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!! Aarghhh ... Okay, I'll probably never know for sure if those were the original set cars on that table. No use kicking yourself for something that's not only over and done, but which may not even be true. So I might as well forget about it and enjoy my little engine. Yet now, somehow everything is ... different.  But, wait a minute … hey, if I call the outfit that put on the show, could I get contact info for the tableholders in that part of the room?  Then start calling, "Hey, are you the fellow that had … and do you still … and would you … ?"  I dunno, sounds like a lot of trouble with small chance of success. And for what? To have to store more diddling freight cars - in order to add a theoretical hundred dollars or two (minus expenses) to the theoretical value of my chaotic HO accumulation? Ehhhh... Still, it seems sad to let a rare set be broken up if it could be preserved, you know, for posterity ... Nah.  The payoff's too uncertain, and I'm far too lazy. I think. -- David  Photos of the little zinc heartbreaker are in the David's Vintage Junkarola folder along with some catalog images. Photos of the set (sigh) are in Marxtuba's Tenshodo Set in Wooden Box folder.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22434	From: dwaite2000	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

My first brass model years ago was a Tenshodo ATSF FT A/B set. Somehow, over the years, I've acquired quite a number of similar models, among them a few Internationals. The F7's I have use an F9 car body with F3 dynamic brakes. So I guess you could call it an F3 or an F9 but not an F7. Strange. Dick Waite Topsfield, MA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22435	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Dick Can you fire me photos of your International F units or post them in a group folder? Thanks, Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 11:30 AM, <acace@...> wrote:   My first brass model years ago was a Tenshodo ATSF FT A/B set. Somehow, over the years, I've acquired quite a number of similar models, among them a few Internationals. The F7's I have use an F9 car body with F3 dynamic brakes. So I guess you could call it an F3 or an F9 but not an F7. Strange. Dick Waite Topsfield, MA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22436	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Hi David! Nice score. It is tragic to break up the set in my mind, but like you, I have little room to store complete sets. I think if it were me, I would still try to track down the "dealer". At least give it an effort. As for value wise... you obtained the most collectible piece in the set, so there is little value to be gained by reuniting it.  It seems to me... that engine is more valuable to Japanese collectors, than American collectors, as it was not available in Japan during the time of it's production.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! On Sunday, March 30, 2014 1:31 AM, "dnhelber@..." <dnhelber@...> wrote:   I was headed out of a recent local train show when I spotted an 0-6-0T (I'm a dead sucker for short tank engines). The table was sparse, with some very old boxed brass, and some loose vintage equipment set out in lines like trains. The fellow didn't seem like a dealer, more like someone selling off an older relative's collection. My little switcher was sitting at the head of a line of five or six freight cars. She was charmingly primitive, and all-metal. The nearly pristine paint hid the boiler material, but the driver retainer was a simple brass sheet, notched for the gear. Old old school. The jeweled headlights and markers caught my eye. EuroJapanese slope-down fronts on the side tanks, but otherwise very American.  I've never been a brass guy, and I couldn't recall specifically seeing it before, but a little voice whispered "Tenshodo" in my head. (Maybe it was the obvious Tenshodo boxes at the end of the table). "How much for the little tank engine?"  "You just want the engine?" - he seemed disappointed. I hadn't even looked at anything else; I have all the freight cars I'll ever need (for that matter, I have all the tank engines I'll ever need too, but never mind that). Besides, I'd spent almost all my show money. I said "Yes - I have a bit of a thing for tank engines." He quietly replied "I guess ... ten dollars." Hoo-Hah! I reached for my wallet, and walked out with my new old 0-6-0.  When I researched it, I was amused to learn it is a Tenshodo. According to Sean Naylor, on this forum, it's the first Tenshodo engine ever imported into the US. That was 1954 or earlier. It's zamac, not brass, but nice examples are quite rare, and rather valuable, I gather. It's only one coupler and some pinpoint paint chips away from being in Like-New condition. I applied power and it ran immediately, and smoothly. Wowzers. Victory! A fascinating piece of PaleoHO history that's also a good runner - for a ten-spot. I began to hear the theme to "Rocky" playing faintly in the background. Then less faintly ... Researching the engine further, I learned that, unlike any Tenshodo engine I'd ever heard of, the little 0-6-0T had also been available, nicely boxed up with cars and track, in a set.  … a … set … … a … very rare … set … … with five or six ... freight ... cars.  … umm … NO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!! Aarghhh ... Okay, I'll probably never know for sure if those were the original set cars on that table. No use kicking yourself for something that's not only over and done, but which may not even be true. So I might as well forget about it and enjoy my little engine. Yet now, somehow everything is ... different.  But, wait a minute … hey, if I call the outfit that put on the show, could I get contact info for the tableholders in that part of the room?  Then start calling, "Hey, are you the fellow that had … and do you still … and would you … ?"  I dunno, sounds like a lot of trouble with small chance of success. And for what? To have to store more diddling freight cars - in order to add a theoretical hundred dollars or two (minus expenses) to the theoretical value of my chaotic HO accumulation? Ehhhh... Still, it seems sad to let a rare set be broken up if it could be preserved, you know, for posterity ... Nah.  The payoff's too uncertain, and I'm far too lazy. I think. -- David  Photos of the little zinc heartbreaker are in the David's Vintage Junkarola folder along with some catalog images. Photos of the set (sigh) are in Marxtuba's Tenshodo Set in Wooden Box folder.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22437	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

David, If you offer him half what you think it is worth, neither of you should feel offended at that point.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! On Sunday, March 30, 2014 3:38 PM, "dnhelber@..." <dnhelber@...> wrote:   Chuckle. Yeah, Denis. That's part of the problem. When I don't know what it is, and he doesn't know what it is, we're both making our best guesses, and we take our lumps or our victories. All part of the game. So I can occasionally get a hundred dollar toy for ten bucks and not feel bad about it. But now I have an idea that bigger money might be involved, and won't feel so good about getting the cars for a similar markdown. "Oh, and say, do you have that wooden set box with the Tenshodo plate on the end? I'll go ten on all the cars, if you throw that in. Can you deliver to my house?" A lot of the fun goes out of it when you're just coldly fleecing some poor guy. Well, for me, anyway. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22438	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

I thought the F9's in general used vertical square vents in the side window panels while the F7's and late F3-5's have horizontal square louvre vents in the window panels. It's one more spotting feature to look for. Another general feature is that many of the F7's and most, if not all of the earlier F's have a pointed overhang on the roof at the flat ends while the F9's carried over from the late F7's car body a straight edge to the roof at the flat ends of the body. That roof line became standard with the last production F7 bodies. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Mar 31, 2014, at 10:34 AM, "J. Gareth Edwards" <jgpedwards@...> wrote: Hey Dick Can you fire me photos of your International F units or post them in a group folder? Thanks, Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 11:30 AM, <acace@...> wrote:   My first brass model years ago was a Tenshodo ATSF FT A/B set. Somehow, over the years, I've acquired quite a number of similar models, .....

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22439	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: a69mustang4me@... Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 09:08:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!   Hi David! Nice score. It is tragic to break up the set in my mind, but like you, I have little room to store complete sets. I think if it were me, I would still try to track down the "dealer". At least give it an effort. As for value wise... you obtained the most collectible piece in the set, so there is little value to be gained by reuniting it.  It seems to me... that engine is more valuable to Japanese collectors, than American collectors, as it was not available in Japan during the time of it's production.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! On Sunday, March 30, 2014 1:31 AM, "dnhelber@..." <dnhelber@...> wrote:   I was headed out of a recent local train show when I spotted an 0-6-0T (I'm a dead sucker for short tank engines). The table was sparse, with some very old boxed brass, and some loose vintage equipment set out in lines like trains. The fellow didn't seem like a dealer, more like someone selling off an older relative's collection. My little switcher was sitting at the head of a line of five or six freight cars. She was charmingly primitive, and all-metal. The nearly pristine paint hid the boiler material, but the driver retainer was a simple brass sheet, notched for the gear. Old old school. The jeweled headlights and markers caught my eye. EuroJapanese slope-down fronts on the side tanks, but otherwise very American.  I've never been a brass guy, and I couldn't recall specifically seeing it before, but a little voice whispered "Tenshodo" in my head. (Maybe it was the obvious Tenshodo boxes at the end of the table). "How much for the little tank engine?"  "You just want the engine?" - he seemed disappointed. I hadn't even looked at anything else; I have all the freight cars I'll ever need (for that matter, I have all the tank engines I'll ever need too, but never mind that). Besides, I'd spent almost all my show money. I said "Yes - I have a bit of a thing for tank engines." He quietly replied "I guess ... ten dollars." Hoo-Hah! I reached for my wallet, and walked out with my new old 0-6-0.  When I researched it, I was amused to learn it is a Tenshodo. According to Sean Naylor, on this forum, it's the first Tenshodo engine ever imported into the US. That was 1954 or earlier. It's zamac, not brass, but nice examples are quite rare, and rather valuable, I gather. It's only one coupler and some pinpoint paint chips away from being in Like-New condition. I applied power and it ran immediately, and smoothly. Wowzers. Victory! A fascinating piece of PaleoHO history that's also a good runner - for a ten-spot. I began to hear the theme to "Rocky" playing faintly in the background. Then less faintly ... Researching the engine further, I learned that, unlike any Tenshodo engine I'd ever heard of, the little 0-6-0T had also been available, nicely boxed up with cars and track, in a set.  … a … set … … a … very rare … set … … with five or six ... freight ... cars.  … umm … NO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!! Aarghhh ... Okay, I'll probably never know for sure if those were the original set cars on that table. No use kicking yourself for something that's not only over and done, but which may not even be true. So I might as well forget about it and enjoy my little engine. Yet now, somehow everything is ... different.  But, wait a minute … hey, if I call the outfit that put on the show, could I get contact info for the tableholders in that part of the room?  Then start calling, "Hey, are you the fellow that had … and do you still … and would you … ?"  I dunno, sounds like a lot of trouble with small chance of success. And for what? To have to store more diddling freight cars - in order to add a theoretical hundred dollars or two (minus expenses) to the theoretical value of my chaotic HO accumulation? Ehhhh... Still, it seems sad to let a rare set be broken up if it could be preserved, you know, for posterity ... Nah.  The payoff's too uncertain, and I'm far too lazy. I think. -- David  Photos of the little zinc heartbreaker are in the David's Vintage Junkarola folder along with some catalog images. Photos of the set (sigh) are in Marxtuba's Tenshodo Set in Wooden Box folder.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22440	From: wilmeaux	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

What Ambroid kits are you offering and at what prices? And, do the prices include S&H?   Thanks,   Bill A   From: jgpedwards@... Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 6:34 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sorting and culling...     Hey Guys:   The Hustler with the ernst kit is spoken for...   The other ERNST kit still in original package is still available.   Anyone interested in unbuilt Ambroid kits?   Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22441	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hi Bill Can you email me? I'll take a look. No dea on prices, have to figure that out.... I think I have five kits. -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22442	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Jeff,   Didn't you get the email I sent you at 10:55 AM this morning -- sent directly to your email address?  I asked about four different Ambroid kits.  Please check your messages again, thanks.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/31/2014 3:18:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hi Bill Can you email me? I'll take a look. No dea on prices, have to figure that out.... I think I have five kits. -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22443	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hey Ray, thought I replied. Not home to look at kits. Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 4:31 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Jeff,   Didn't you get the email I sent you at 10:55 AM this morning -- sent directly to your email address?  I asked about four different Ambroid kits.  Please check your messages again, thanks.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/31/2014 3:18:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hi Bill Can you email me? I'll take a look. No dea on prices, have to figure that out.... I think I have five kits. -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22444	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Off the top of my head ray, no. NY Container or something, 1 1/2 auto car, wood chip and something else. Jeff On 31 March 2014 16:32, J. Gareth Edwards <jgpedwards@...> wrote: Hey Ray, thought I replied. Not home to look at kits. Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 4:31 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Jeff,   Didn't you get the email I sent you at 10:55 AM this morning -- sent directly to your email address?  I asked about four different Ambroid kits.  Please check your messages again, thanks.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/31/2014 3:18:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hi Bill Can you email me? I'll take a look. No dea on prices, have to figure that out.... I think I have five kits. -Jeff -- "A is A" ~ Aristotle

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22445	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Guys I put a folder in Photo's of Dick's F-Units. -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22446	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Okay Jeff, I figured it was a slim chance you'd have anything I need since Ambroid made so many different kits.  Hadn't seen your first reply, but no matter.  Thanks for getting back to me now.     Ray      In a message dated 3/31/2014 3:38:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Off the top of my head ray, no. NY Container or something, 1 1/2 auto car, wood chip and something else. Jeff On 31 March 2014 16:32, J. Gareth Edwards <jgpedwards@...> wrote: Hey Ray, thought I replied. Not home to look at kits. Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 4:31 PM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Jeff,   Didn't you get the email I sent you at 10:55 AM this morning -- sent directly to your email address?  I asked about four different Ambroid kits.  Please check your messages again, thanks.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/31/2014 3:18:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hi Bill Can you email me? I'll take a look. No dea on prices, have to figure that out.... I think I have five kits. -Jeff -- "A is A" ~ Aristotle

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22447	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Vic Bitleris asks -- Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC ===== No, Vic. That's Tenshodo's later, much more common, long 0-6-0T. Also available (I seem to recall) as a 2-6-2T, which may be what those extra wheel-pairs and hardware in the auction photo are about. The engine I have is in the first five pictures in my David's Vintage Junkarola folder in the PHOTOS section. Not as impressive looking as its later brother. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22448	From: wilmeaux	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Make me a good price & I’ll likely take all five.   Bill A   From: jgpedwards@... Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 1:18 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sorting and culling...     Hi Bill   Can you email me?   I'll take a look. No dea on prices, have to figure that out....   I think I have five kits.   -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22449	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Thanks for the clarification guys.  I didn't know the difference.  I DO know the one you referenced to on ebay is the one I am bidding on as I remember wanting one of them when they came out.  (--that--was a while ago) Dennis, fingers crossed..... Vic Bitleris asks -- Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC ===== No, Vic. That's Tenshodo's later, much more common, long 0-6-0T. Also available (I seem to recall) as a 2-6-2T, which may be what those extra wheel-pairs and hardware in the auction photo are about. The engine I have is in the first five pictures in my David's Vintage Junkarola folder in the PHOTOS section. Not as impressive looking as its later brother. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22450	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Old Time Cars (prob.OT-not vintage)

Thanks, so much Reynold. Great info on the cars, and I appreciate the extra prototype data on the caboose. That pretty much takes care of the ID. 1997 is a little closer to vintage than I thought they were, but still doesn't qualify, to my mind. Unless somebody really wants me to leave it up, I'll be taking down the photo folder in a couple of days, after anyone who is interested has had a chance to look at it. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22451	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Good luck, Dennis. Hope that low price holds. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22452	From: Denis Long	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Attachments : Hey Jeff, What an engrossing niche’ interest.  What did you think of the nose profile of the ‘F9’ on HO Seeker? Denis                                                         From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Gareth Edwards Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 9:17 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?     Hi Ray I have a pair of Varney F3's an AB combo both powered with a large flywheel system and the ability to change the gear ratio. They have a spindle pulley very like my Unimat Lathes. My interest in the Int'l F9 has to do with the "interpretations" of the nose profile and roofline/windows. They are a signatue characteristic of each variation. It's sorta a matter of collecting the error variations. I have a Rapido FP9A which is the most accurate F likely ever made. These guys used a 3D laser scanning technology to get the profile right which is fantastic but there is fun in anomalies of those that are not. A have a lot to learn about the F3/7/9's and their "phases". I often say I'm a lucky guy, so much yet still to learn. Best, Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 10:08 AM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Hi Jeff,   I have to wonder if IMP very possible issued two -- or more -- different catalogs throughout the year 1956, as I have two 1956 IMP catalogs and neither of them show an F9 -- nor do any earlier IMP catalogs.  Unlike a number of U.S. H0 manufacturers back then which at least gave some indication of about when their catalogs were published when they had more than one per year, as far as I can see, IMP only printed the year on the cover. I'm glad you found that IMP did produce that model F unit though.  I understand about money being a little tight for you right now, but it might be something worth saving up for over time.  For that matter, if it doesn't need to be an F9, why don't you consider a Varney cast metal F3 ?  No matter what motor/truck version it is, they all ran quite well.  An early brass engine may not run all that great, unless you find one by a manufacturer more noted for better running.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 3/30/2014 3:50:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Ray:   I found it in the 1956 Int'l catalogue. That predates me by a bit....   I'd pursue one of them but at the moment my Doctor won't even let me spend the $20 Allowance a week I have  usually because I mislead her a bit about my money flow. Yes you heard that right, my Dr. I don't call her "Dr.Mom" for nothing! Love her to death though. :)   Besides I have to pay for a Rapido F9B that I reserved and that will take some talking! ;)   -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22453	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Jeff,   Okay, now I think I understand your model needs.  Unless you have them already, you probably will be looking into getting Train Miniature F's, Globe F's, Athearn F's, Model Power F's and Hobbytown/Cary F's -- and any others you may find.  For that matter, wasn't it a Dallas Modelcraft F3 that Jim Heckard said he has, or is that an E unit?  I have their catalog somewhere around here but can't put my finger on it.  Then too, there were many E units produced by various manufacturers.  I especially like the Hobbytown E6 with the slant nose.  Rock Island's EMD TA had a nice slant nose too.  I think Nickel Plate Products made one in brass.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/31/2014 6:37:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hi Ray I have a pair of Varney F3's an AB combo both powered with a large flywheel system and the ability to change the gear ratio. They have a spindle pulley very like my Unimat Lathes. My interest in the Int'l F9 has to do with the "interpretations" of the nose profile and roofline/windows. They are a signatue characteristic of each variation. It's sorta a matter of collecting the error variations. I have a Rapido FP9A which is the most accurate F likely ever made. These guys used a 3D laser scanning technology to get the profile right which is fantastic but there is fun in anomalies of those that are not. A have a lot to learn about the F3/7/9's and their "phases". I often say I'm a lucky guy, so much yet still to learn. Best, Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 10:08 AM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Hi Jeff,   I have to wonder if IMP very possible issued two -- or more -- different catalogs throughout the year 1956, as I have two 1956 IMP catalogs and neither of them show an F9 -- nor do any earlier IMP catalogs.  Unlike a number of U.S. H0 manufacturers back then which at least gave some indication of about when their catalogs were published when they had more than one per year, as far as I can see, IMP only printed the year on the cover. I'm glad you found that IMP did produce that model F unit though.  I understand about money being a little tight for you right now, but it might be something worth saving up for over time.  For that matter, if it doesn't need to be an F9, why don't you consider a Varney cast metal F3 ?  No matter what motor/truck version it is, they all ran quite well.  An early brass engine may not run all that great, unless you find one by a manufacturer more noted for better running.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 3/30/2014 3:50:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Ray: I found it in the 1956 Int'l catalogue. That predates me by a bit.... I'd pursue one of them but at the moment my Doctor won't even let me spend the $20 Allowance a week I have  usually because I mislead her a bit about my money flow. Yes you heard that right, my Dr. I don't call her "Dr.Mom" for nothing! Love her to death though. :) Besides I have to pay for a Rapido F9B that I reserved and that will take some talking! ;) -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22454	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Denis: It is a kinda niche thing, but that's a big part of model railroading isn't it? The Int'l F9 looks to have to tall a nose or too short a windshield, or both. Hey Ray. I have two HT F-Unit chassis and just bought a new old stock HT unit with the huge O scale motor... I plan to make an ABA combo with Cary F3 PH2 shells but find and use the lash up drive shafts and weight the "A" units and take power from the big motor in the "B". Should pull like crazy....! ;) -Jeff On 31 March 2014 19:58, Denis Long <avanti78@...> wrote:   Hey Jeff, What an engrossing niche’ interest.  What did you think of the nose profile of the ‘F9’ on HO Seeker? Denis                                                         From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Gareth Edwards Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 9:17 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?     Hi Ray I have a pair of Varney F3's an AB combo both powered with a large flywheel system and the ability to change the gear ratio. They have a spindle pulley very like my Unimat Lathes. My interest in the Int'l F9 has to do with the "interpretations" of the nose profile and roofline/windows. They are a signatue characteristic of each variation. It's sorta a matter of collecting the error variations. I have a Rapido FP9A which is the most accurate F likely ever made. These guys used a 3D laser scanning technology to get the profile right which is fantastic but there is fun in anomalies of those that are not. A have a lot to learn about the F3/7/9's and their "phases". I often say I'm a lucky guy, so much yet still to learn. Best, Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 10:08 AM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Hi Jeff,   I have to wonder if IMP very possible issued two -- or more -- different catalogs throughout the year 1956, as I have two 1956 IMP catalogs and neither of them show an F9 -- nor do any earlier IMP catalogs.  Unlike a number of U.S. H0 manufacturers back then which at least gave some indication of about when their catalogs were published when they had more than one per year, as far as I can see, IMP only printed the year on the cover. I'm glad you found that IMP did produce that model F unit though.  I understand about money being a little tight for you right now, but it might be something worth saving up for over time.  For that matter, if it doesn't need to be an F9, why don't you consider a Varney cast metal F3 ?  No matter what motor/truck version it is, they all ran quite well.  An early brass engine may not run all that great, unless you find one by a manufacturer more noted for better running.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 3/30/2014 3:50:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Ray:   I found it in the 1956 Int'l catalogue. That predates me by a bit....   I'd pursue one of them but at the moment my Doctor won't even let me spend the $20 Allowance a week I have  usually because I mislead her a bit about my money flow. Yes you heard that right, my Dr. I don't call her "Dr.Mom" for nothing! Love her to death though. :)   Besides I have to pay for a Rapido F9B that I reserved and that will take some talking! ;)   -Jeff -- "A is A" ~ Aristotle

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22455	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hey Bill and Anon... so there are four unbuilt Ambroid kits NYC Container Car Wood Chip Car 1 in 5000 1 1/2door Automobile car 8 Hatch CPR Reefer CNR Caboose by Quality Craft Models (USA) Wood Caboose in wood! Also added another group shot! ;) -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22456	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Oscar and Piker

A rare eBay appearance by both the Oscar and the Piker, Walthers' gag "busted budget" passenger cars, with a Hustler painted to match. Less than a day to go, if you're interested in bidding. (Hands up, all who were bitterly disappointed, back in the day, by Walthers' idea of what constituted "a girl in the shower") -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22457	From: rcjge	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Added another group shot guys... -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22458	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Scalite lighting: anyone still use or install these?

At the last train show I attended, I picked up 9 boxes of Scalite HO lighting. All for locomotives; a few for locos I have; some not. I got them almost as a curiosity as I'd never seen them before. NOS in their little blue boxes. Does anyone still use them??? I think I'll install a couple in vintage units I have just for kicks. Any experiences with them? Dennis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22459	From: trainliker	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

 The Oscar and Piker wood and metal kits show up on ebay pretty regularly.  HO more the O.  But both show up.   The later HO plastic molded ones also show up and seem to command pretty high prices.   I built a couple of the original HO ones in the 60's and thought they were great fun.   Chuck Kinzer       ----- Original Message ----- From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 7:05 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Oscar and Piker   A rare eBay appearance by both the Oscar and the Piker, Walthers' gag "busted budget" passenger cars, with a Hustler painted to match. Less than a day to go, if you're interested in bidding. (Hands up, all who were bitterly disappointed, back in the day, by Walthers' idea of what constituted "a girl in the shower") -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22460	From: david_helber	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

But ... together?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22461	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Scalite lighting: anyone still use or install these?

Hi Dennis, I also have picked up a few along the way intending to install in the appropriate vintage locomotive, but have not yet done so. There were several different versions even for a basic locomotive like the Varney F3, some simulating a Mars light which seem to use a large automobile type breaker and three separate bulbs! I think the one intended for the Varney NW switcher had a small rectifier for directional lighting. Lastly I do have several of their passenger car lighting kits which included a long tapered Lucite plastic strip, intended to evenly defuse the lighting from one bulb located at an end. I can't seem to ever remember reading any details about the company or its founder. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22462	From: trainliker	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

 Rarely together in the original kit form.  Although there was just an auction like that which also, strangely, included a power truck for the Walthers gas motor car.   Here it is (and somebody got a pretty good deal):   http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-SCALE-LOT-3-WALTHERS-OSCAR-PIKER-WOOD-KITS-POWER-TRUCK-KIT-/201056318379?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2ecfe3f3ab#ht_4387wt_1329   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 8:50 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Oscar and Piker   But ... together?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22463	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Crescent Models E6/A-B

Yup, recently I got a pair of the vintage Crescent EMD E6 A and B body sets. They need a bit of final assembly and a drive. Since the actual Crescent drive is only one power truck as well as very hard to find, I've been considering alternatives. I just secured a pair of powered pre-Walthers Lifelike E6 drives to power both shells. I expect I'll have to mill the drives a bit here and there to make the bodies comfortably fit upon them. I'll not mod the bodies at all. The nose was attached with blobs of solder. That will be fixed. Some small parts still need to be applied. I see there are small holes in the front of each nose number-boards. I don't know if there are separate number boards to apply to the body or if this is a builder's mod. This is the one mod I will do to the original bodies, it will get micro-LED lit number boards along the way. I'm not sure what road I'll paint them for.......... I did get a nice set of Blue Line CNW passenger car kits, enough for an eight car train and an additional observation car. The fired enamel metal car sides still look great. The kits were never built. Maybe the Crescent E6-A/B should become CNW passenger power? In storage is a noseless Crescent body shell I must have got at a swap meet over 20 years ago............ maybe I should use one of the arriving LifeLike E6 shell noses to make a dummy E6-A from that? It might be best to finish that one with a free-lance scheme since it will be a bit of a half-breed of a body by then. Also around here is an undec pre-Walthers E8 and a 70-s era Cary E6 shell with an AHM drive under her. There's good fodder for a dummy chassis for the incomplete Crescent, and a good drive to transplant under the Cary E6 shell. OH, Fun, Fun !! Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22464	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

I keep thinking of bashing a couple of the old Athearn heavyweight passenger car bodies into a Piker and Oscar set. One reason for the power truck with that pair of Oscar and Piker is that the Solarium end of the Oscar and the observation end of the Piker, [or is it the other way for the ends and the names], will make for a nice articulated executive doodlebug with the Solarium end as the front. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Mar 31, 2014, at 11:39 PM, <ckinzer@...> <ckinzer@...> wrote: >  > > Rarely together in the original kit form. Although there was just an auction like that which also, strangely, included a power truck for the Walthers gas motor car. > > Here it is (and somebody got a pretty good deal): > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-SCALE-LOT-3-WALTHERS-OSCAR-PIKER-WOOD-KITS-POWER-TRUCK-KIT-/201056318379?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2ecfe3f3ab#ht_4387wt_1329 > > Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22465	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Jeff, did you get my email re: GG1? Ken A Starcher 1570 Meriline St Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 330.920.8035

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22466	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

On 3/31/2014 5:55 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote: Thanks for the clarification guys.  I didn't know the difference.  I DO know the one you referenced to on ebay is the one I am bidding on as I remember wanting one of them when they came out.  (--that--was a while ago) Dennis, fingers crossed..... Vic Bitleris asks -- Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC ===== No, Vic. That's Tenshodo's later, much more common, long 0-6-0T. Also available (I seem to recall) as a 2-6-2T, which may be what those extra wheel-pairs and hardware in the auction photo are about. The engine I have is in the first five pictures in my David's Vintage Junkarola folder in the PHOTOS section. Not as impressive looking as its later brother. -- D I wish you hadn't said that, I was going to bid on it :-( Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22467	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 3/31/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

On 4/1/2014 12:52 AM, Ken Starcher wrote: > Jeff, did you get my email re: GG1? > > > > > Ken A Starcher > 1570 Meriline St > Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 > 330.920.8035 > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > > Could you fellows please take your negotiations off list? Thanks Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22468	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Hey Jeff,   Sounds like you're gonna have a real kitchen sink puller; those Pittman DC-90's will pull everything including the kitchen sink, they'll tear walls down especially when coupled with the multi-unit drive.  Best of luck on this project, let us know when it's done even though it may take a while.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/31/2014 8:32:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Denis: It is a kinda niche thing, but that's a big part of model railroading isn't it? The Int'l F9 looks to have to tall a nose or too short a windshield, or both. Hey Ray. I have two HT F-Unit chassis and just bought a new old stock HT unit with the huge O scale motor... I plan to make an ABA combo with Cary F3 PH2 shells but find and use the lash up drive shafts and weight the "A" units and take power from the big motor in the "B". Should pull like crazy....! ;) -Jeff On 31 March 2014 19:58, Denis Long <avanti78@...> wrote:   Hey Jeff, What an engrossing niche’ interest.  What did you think of the nose profile of the ‘F9’ on HO Seeker? Denis                                                         From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Gareth Edwards Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 9:17 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?     Hi Ray I have a pair of Varney F3's an AB combo both powered with a large flywheel system and the ability to change the gear ratio. They have a spindle pulley very like my Unimat Lathes. My interest in the Int'l F9 has to do with the "interpretations" of the nose profile and roofline/windows. They are a signatue characteristic of each variation. It's sorta a matter of collecting the error variations. I have a Rapido FP9A which is the most accurate F likely ever made. These guys used a 3D laser scanning technology to get the profile right which is fantastic but there is fun in anomalies of those that are not. A have a lot to learn about the F3/7/9's and their "phases". I often say I'm a lucky guy, so much yet still to learn. Best, Jeff On Mar 31, 2014 10:08 AM, <eriepacific@...> wrote:   Hi Jeff,   I have to wonder if IMP very possible issued two -- or more -- different catalogs throughout the year 1956, as I have two 1956 IMP catalogs and neither of them show an F9 -- nor do any earlier IMP catalogs.  Unlike a number of U.S. H0 manufacturers back then which at least gave some indication of about when their catalogs were published when they had more than one per year, as far as I can see, IMP only printed the year on the cover. I'm glad you found that IMP did produce that model F unit though.  I understand about money being a little tight for you right now, but it might be something worth saving up for over time.  For that matter, if it doesn't need to be an F9, why don't you consider a Varney cast metal F3 ?  No matter what motor/truck version it is, they all ran quite well.  An early brass engine may not run all that great, unless you find one by a manufacturer more noted for better running.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 3/30/2014 3:50:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Ray:   I found it in the 1956 Int'l catalogue. That predates me by a bit....   I'd pursue one of them but at the moment my Doctor won't even let me spend the $20 Allowance a week I have  usually because I mislead her a bit about my money flow. Yes you heard that right, my Dr. I don't call her "Dr.Mom" for nothing! Love her to death though. :)   Besides I have to pay for a Rapido F9B that I reserved and that will take some talking! ;)   -Jeff -- "A is A" ~ Aristotle

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22469	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Scalite lighting: anyone still use or install these?

Dennis,   Just like W.Jay W., I too have accumulated a number of these Scalite kits (all of them for Diesel locos) which I plan to install in my Varney F-3's and John English FA's and which I haven't done yet.  As they're not yet installed, I can't give you any experience with them, but just like Jay says, they're designed for specific manufacturer's units.  I'm not all that sure that they couldn't be installed on different other cab units though.  I have a couple of the Mars Light kits too, which kind of intrigues me.  I'm hoping they live up to their name and give that effect they're advertised to present.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 3/31/2014 9:12:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dbtrail@... writes:   At the last train show I attended, I picked up 9 boxes of Scalite HO lighting. All for locomotives; a few for locos I have; some not. I got them almost as a curiosity as I'd never seen them before. NOS in their little blue boxes. Does anyone still use them??? I think I'll install a couple in vintage units I have just for kicks. Any experiences with them? Dennis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22470	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

Yeah Jeff,   It’ll pull all right. The whole kitchen in fact. A friend of list owner Don and myself had an A-B-A set of Cary shelled Hobbytown FT’s and boy did it pull. I believe it was also multi-drives but then he had several F units, some multi-drives and some not so he could have some ability to change the power set around. But I believe that the FT’s were all multi-ed due to prototype FT A-B-A sets having a shorter B unit than the A-B sets. Yeah, I know the Cary only came with the full length B shell I rebuilt it into the short version and the whole thing was meant to be run as a set, just as the prototype A-B-A’s were semi-permanently coupled together. All his Motorized F’s used the DC-90 motors.   He had a “test” 40 ft. box car that was filled with a huge block of lead and had the axles ACC’ed so the they couldn’t roll. None of his power, even his Cary/Hobbytown SW-1500 with a smaller can motor, had any problem moving it.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 4:56 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?     Hey Jeff,   Sounds like you're gonna have a real kitchen sink puller; those Pittman DC-90's will pull everything including the kitchen sink, they'll tear walls down especially when coupled with the multi-unit drive.  Best of luck on this project, let us know when it's done even though it may take a while.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 3/31/2014 8:32:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jgpedwards@... writes:   Hey Denis:   It is a kinda niche thing, but that's a big part of model railroading isn't it? The Int'l F9 looks to have to tall a nose or too short a windshield, or both.   Hey Ray. I have two HT F-Unit chassis and just bought a new old stock HT unit with the huge O scale motor... I plan to make an ABA combo with Cary F3 PH2 shells but find and use the lash up drive shafts and weight the "A" units and take power from the big motor in the "B". Should pull like crazy....! ;)   -Jeff   Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (26) Visit Your Group ·         New Members 1 ·         New Photos 28 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22471	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Good luck on that Denis, It really shouldn't go for that high a price, unless someone thinks they are bidding on the more rare one, described in the attached email below.   I picked up one of these at a train show for $10 along with other stuff.  It runs really nice, but someone butchered the rear mounting lugs, so I have to create new ones and sister them in somehow.  A bit of brass work and a couple of hours ought to do it.  I think they couldn't figure out how to mount Kadee couplers?  That will be a trick, but would have been much easier had it not been butchered. Here is one that has been heavily modified, but it looks like it was a very nice job. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tenshodo-HO-all-metal-2-6-0T-Steam-engine-/141236451447?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item20e2593877 Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: don.dellmann@... Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 01:36:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!   On 3/31/2014 5:55 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote: Thanks for the clarification guys.  I didn't know the difference.  I DO know the one you referenced to on ebay is the one I am bidding on as I remember wanting one of them when they came out.  (--that--was a while ago) Dennis, fingers crossed..... Vic Bitleris asks -- Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC ===== No, Vic. That's Tenshodo's later, much more common, long 0-6-0T. Also available (I seem to recall) as a 2-6-2T, which may be what those extra wheel-pairs and hardware in the auction photo are about. The engine I have is in the first five pictures in my David's Vintage Junkarola folder in the PHOTOS section. Not as impressive looking as its later brother. -- D I wish you hadn't said that, I was going to bid on it :-( Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22472	From: dwaite2000	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

re: Hobbytown/Cary lash ups. I have an ABA multidrive set up with the B powered and a AB multidrive set as well. They both work great but the ABA set is a little difficult to handle as you need 3 hands to pick it up. All have Cary bodies. Dick Waite Topsfield, MA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22473	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?

You don’t?   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of acace@... Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 8:04 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: 1950'a "International" F-Unit info?     re: Hobbytown/Cary lash ups. I have an ABA multidrive set up with the B powered and a AB multidrive set as well. They both work great but the ABA set is a little difficult to handle as you need 3 hands to pick it up. All have Cary bodies. Dick Waite Topsfield, MA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22474	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

I was a teenager back then so I was particularly disappointed. Now, with kits available on Ebay and some of the Preiser figures available.... Willard At 10:05 PM 3/31/2014, you wrote: A rare eBay appearance by both the Oscar and the Piker, Walthers' gag "busted budget" passenger cars, with a Hustler painted to match. Less than a day to go, if you're interested in bidding. (Hands up, all who were bitterly disappointed, back in the day, by Walthers' idea of what constituted "a girl in the shower") -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22475	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hey Don; Thought I had replied direct. So anyone contacting me re: my 4 sale stuff please email me direct, thanks, Jeff On Apr 1, 2014 2:42 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:   On 4/1/2014 12:52 AM, Ken Starcher wrote: > Jeff, did you get my email re: GG1? > > > > > Ken A Starcher > 1570 Meriline St > Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 > 330.920.8035 > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > > Could you fellows please take your negotiations off list? Thanks Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22476	From: trainliker	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

The "girl in the shower" in the O scale version was molded in cast metal so is at least three dimensional.  But the modest pose is the same as the printed one in the HO version.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Willard Seehorn To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Oscar and Piker   I was a teenager back then so I was particularly disappointed. Now, with kits available on Ebay and some of the Preiser figures available.... Willard At 10:05 PM 3/31/2014, you wrote: A rare eBay appearance by both the Oscar and the Piker, Walthers' gag "busted budget" passenger cars, with a Hustler painted to match. Less than a day to go, if you're interested in bidding. (Hands up, all who were bitterly disappointed, back in the day, by Walthers' idea of what constituted "a girl in the shower") -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22477	From: rcjge	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hope this is oK. Just an update on my folder please reply with questions to me direct! Don, hope that's ok? I've added comments to some of the photo's for info purposes... -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22478	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: A "lady" for Oscar...

Attachments : Chuck and all, I have thought about replacing the Walthers printed HO Scale girl in the shower with one of the vintage 1950's Weston, later Campbell Models "Lady-in-the-Lake" three dimensional cast metal figures. (The pile of clothes on the floor sold separately.) See attached photo from a mid-80s Walthers catalog. I'm pleased to find that the Weston figures are once again being manufactured and sold direct by Campbell! For an updated photo and prices see: http://www.campbellscalemodels.com/mobile/Category.aspx?id=59&page=4 W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22479	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

On 4/1/2014 9:10 AM, ckinzer@... wrote: The "girl in the shower" in the O scale version was molded in cast metal so is at least three dimensional.  But the modest pose is the same as the printed one in the HO version.   Chuck Kinzer   You could've used Weston's "lady in the lake". Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Willard Seehorn To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Oscar and Piker   I was a teenager back then so I was particularly disappointed. Now, with kits available on Ebay and some of the Preiser figures available.... Willard At 10:05 PM 3/31/2014, you wrote: A rare eBay appearance by both the Oscar and the Piker, Walthers' gag "busted budget" passenger cars, with a Hustler painted to match. Less than a day to go, if you're interested in bidding. (Hands up, all who were bitterly disappointed, back in the day, by Walthers' idea of what constituted "a girl in the shower") -- D --

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22480	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

On 4/1/2014 9:01 AM, J. Gareth Edwards wrote: Hey Don; Thought I had replied direct. So anyone contacting me re: my 4 sale stuff please email me direct, thanks, Jeff On Apr 1, 2014 2:42 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:   On 4/1/2014 12:52 AM, Ken Starcher wrote: > Jeff, did you get my email re: GG1? > > > > > Ken A Starcher > (info deleted)> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > > Could you fellows please take your negotiations off list? Thanks Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ No problem. It's just a little dicey when people start to post addresses and phone numbers and such, you never know who's watching. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22481	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hey Don Agreed. Jeff On Apr 1, 2014 3:16 PM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:   On 4/1/2014 9:01 AM, J. Gareth Edwards wrote: Hey Don; Thought I had replied direct. So anyone contacting me re: my 4 sale stuff please email me direct, thanks, Jeff On Apr 1, 2014 2:42 AM, "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> wrote:   On 4/1/2014 12:52 AM, Ken Starcher wrote: > Jeff, did you get my email re: GG1? > > > > > Ken A Starcher > (info deleted)> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > > Could you fellows please take your negotiations off list? Thanks Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ No problem. It's just a little dicey when people start to post addresses and phone numbers and such, you never know who's watching. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22482	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

On 4/1/2014 9:36 AM, jgpedwards@... wrote: Hope this is oK. Just an update on my folder please reply with questions to me direct! Don, hope that's ok? I've added comments to some of the photo's for info purposes... -Jeff That's no problem.  I just don't want people sharing address and phone numbers on the list. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22483	From: al45390	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Gilbert Pre-WWII H0 Track

I have just posted a similar message on the "GilbertH0Trains grip message board, and thought I should ask here to. Does anyone have the steel T-rail on steel roadbed Gilbert pre-war track? Have you ever used it? Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22484	From: david_helber	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

--- Willard sez: I was a teenager back then so I was particularly disappointed.   Same here, Willard.  Younger readers will certainly not believe what a hard time a suburban middle-class kid of the early '60s had finding any representation of a naked or partly-naked female person. It was either encyclopedia pics of greek statuary, or National Geographic's bare-breasted African tribal women. Walthers' ads promised the Oscar had a full interior, and "even a girl in the shower." How cool! A 3-D metal (as we imagined it) figure of a naked lady, hidden away from one's parents inside a train car! But the 'shower' turned out to be an inch of 3/8" basswood square stock and the girl a knock-kneed cartoon figure holding a towel in front of her, printed on the block's paper wrapper!  "Aughhhh!" --- Chuck sez: The "girl in the shower" in the O scale version was molded in cast metal so is at least three dimensional.  But the modest pose is the same as the printed one in the HO version. Is there a photo of that O-scale figure anywhere, just so my inner teenager can get to see what he would have gotten in a fairer world? --- Don sez:  You could've used Weston's "lady in the lake". Yeah, but that would have been an open admission to the store clerk or the mail-order filler, that you were interested in naked women!  -- D ================== ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <don.dellmann@...> wrote : On 4/1/2014 9:10 AM, ckinzer@... wrote: The "girl in the shower" in the O scale version was molded in cast metal so is at least three dimensional.  But the modest pose is the same as the printed one in the HO version.   Chuck Kinzer   You could've used Weston's "lady in the lake". Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Willard Seehorn To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 6:15 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Oscar and Piker   I was a teenager back then so I was particularly disappointed. Now, with kits available on Ebay and some of the Preiser figures available.... Willard At 10:05 PM 3/31/2014, you wrote: A rare eBay appearance by both the Oscar and the Piker, Walthers' gag "busted budget" passenger cars, with a Hustler painted to match. Less than a day to go, if you're interested in bidding. (Hands up, all who were bitterly disappointed, back in the day, by Walthers' idea of what constituted "a girl in the shower") -- D --

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22485	From: david_helber	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

How (if at all) do the new plastic versions handle the girl in the shower? Or do they even have furnished interiors? -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22486	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: Pre-WWII Gilbert H0 track

I suspect the collectors of that OLD track are themselves old and dying off, and the people disposing of their estates may just be junking "that old rusty track". Walter On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 6:37 PM, <measureman1@...> wrote: My 2nd thought is they only were out 1 or 2 years.  We don't know how many were out there. I don't think the percent of what sold is big numbers compared to the collectors today that might be hoarding it.     Brian On Apr 1, 2014, at 5:56 PM, Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...> wrote: I think you are right. Walter On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 5:52 PM, <measureman1@...> wrote: Hey Walter   I think the majority of those tracks may have rusted over time. I picked up a loop in good shape with an original set many years ago.  Month or so ago was the first time I found a good grouping. Many in the bag had rust spots. I fear that the majority may have gone to the train yard in the sky. -- Regards, Walter -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22487	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 4/1/2014
Subject: Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!

Looks like it's been dressed-up with one of the Kemtron parts sets (I think there were 3 different).                  Fred Holladay   To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com From: bitlerisvj@... Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:00:14 -0400 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!   Good luck on that Denis, It really shouldn't go for that high a price, unless someone thinks they are bidding on the more rare one, described in the attached email below.   I picked up one of these at a train show for $10 along with other stuff.  It runs really nice, but someone butchered the rear mounting lugs, so I have to create new ones and sister them in somehow.  A bit of brass work and a couple of hours ought to do it.  I think they couldn't figure out how to mount Kadee couplers?  That will be a trick, but would have been much easier had it not been butchered. Here is one that has been heavily modified, but it looks like it was a very nice job. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tenshodo-HO-all-metal-2-6-0T-Steam-engine-/141236451447?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item20e2593877 Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: don.dellmann@... Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 01:36:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!   On 3/31/2014 5:55 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote: Thanks for the clarification guys.  I didn't know the difference.  I DO know the one you referenced to on ebay is the one I am bidding on as I remember wanting one of them when they came out.  (--that--was a while ago) Dennis, fingers crossed..... Vic Bitleris asks -- Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC ===== No, Vic. That's Tenshodo's later, much more common, long 0-6-0T. Also available (I seem to recall) as a 2-6-2T, which may be what those extra wheel-pairs and hardware in the auction photo are about. The engine I have is in the first five pictures in my David's Vintage Junkarola folder in the PHOTOS section. Not as impressive looking as its later brother. -- D I wish you hadn't said that, I was going to bid on it :-( Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22488	From: gssfhc_wvc	Date: 4/2/2014
Subject: Re: Oscar and Piker

The interior on the newer Oscar and Piker are molded plastic, no images at all   Randy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22489	From: rcjge	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hey Ken: Silly system: Your message about the GG-1 came to me via the group and I didn't have your email addy so please email me from your email acc't and I'll respond.  Best, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22490	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: : The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T

Well, 3 Tenshodo 0-6-0T's have just completed selling on ebay: The first that went for $91, plus $6 postage for a total of $97, had, yes Fred you are right, the Kemtron DeLuxe, "Woods Engine," kit installed, (page 24 of my old Kemtron catalog I've had since c.1958). And Yes again, I drooled over the Woods Conversion when I was a kid looking at this very same catalog here, just as I had drooled over the basic kit.  There was a very good photo of the model in the ebay auction.  I was surprised at the angle of the photo because, to me, it showed the piston valved cylinder set looking almost too large for the locomotive for proportion.  But it could have been the photo too.  However, it set me back a bit for appeal.  Never mattered anyway as I could not afford what it sold for.  In fact, I wouldn't have paid $97 for it even if I could afford it.  I wonder who got it?  The second one was the basic model plus it's original box.  Now I suppose that box contributed some value itself.  I bid on that one, as Don noticed.  Late in the bidding darned if I didn't stumble a new listing for a third Tenshodo 0-6-0 with a buy-it-now price of $29.99.  Of course I had no choice but to, "buy-it-now."  Came to $34.49 including shipping.  (See auction #     271443185937    )  So this is the third 0-6-0 that came up for sale.  When the dust settled and as I scrambled between computer screens the second one had sold for $42 + $9 shipping for a total of $51.00.  The $97.00 loco was advertised as a known runner, (should have been for the price), but the last two both said un-tested.  So for what I bought I came in $16.51 under the mid-priced sale.  So if it arrives in one piece/undamaged, and runs, I'll be quite happy.  The expensive one was a dandy, but out of my retirement budget range.  I'll believe it when it's here, but in the mean time, it's been a good run. Cheers, Dennis Thompson E WA wheatlands............... At 04:00 PM 4/1/2014, you wrote:           Looks like it's been dressed-up with one of the Kemtron parts sets (I think there were 3 different).       Fred Holladay   From: bitlerisvj@... Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:00:14 -0400 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!   Good luck on that Denis, It really shouldn't go for that high a price, unless someone thinks they are bidding on the more rare one, described in the attached email below.  I picked up one of these at a train show for $10 along with other stuff.  It runs really nice, but someone butchered the rear mounting lugs, so I have to create new ones and sister them in somehow.  A bit of brass work and a couple of hours ought to do it.  I think they couldn't figure out how to mount Kadee couplers?  That will be a trick, but would have been much easier had it not been butchered. Here is one that has been heavily modified, but it looks like it was a very nice job. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tenshodo-HO-all-metal-2-6-0T-Steam-engine-/141236451447?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item20e2593877 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC Vic Bitleris asks -- Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC No, Vic. That's Tenshodo's later, much more common, long 0-6-0T. Also available (I seem to recall) as a 2-6-2T, which may be what those extra wheel-pairs and hardware in the auction photo are about. The engine I have is in the first five pictures in my David's Vintage Junkarola folder in the PHOTOS section. Not as impressive looking as its later brother. -- D I wish you hadn't said that, I was going to bid on it :-( Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22491	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T

If you need a motor, I have a spare.  Let me know and I'll send it to you. John B. Allyn From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbtrail@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 8:46:27 PM Subject: [vintageHO] RE:: The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T   Well, 3 Tenshodo 0-6-0T's have just completed selling on ebay: The first that went for $91, plus $6 postage for a total of $97, had, yes Fred you are right, the Kemtron DeLuxe, "Woods Engine," kit installed, (page 24 of my old Kemtron catalog I've had since c.1958). And Yes again, I drooled over the Woods Conversion when I was a kid looking at this very same catalog here, just as I had drooled over the basic kit.  There was a very good photo of the model in the ebay auction.  I was surprised at the angle of the photo because, to me, it showed the piston valved cylinder set looking almost too large for the locomotive for proportion.  But it could have been the photo too.  However, it set me back a bit for appeal.  Never mattered anyway as I could not afford what it sold for.  In fact, I wouldn't have paid $97 for it even if I could afford it.  I wonder who got it?  The second one was the basic model plus it's original box.  Now I suppose that box contributed some value itself.  I bid on that one, as Don noticed.  Late in the bidding darned if I didn't stumble a new listing for a third Tenshodo 0-6-0 with a buy-it-now price of $29.99.  Of course I had no choice but to, "buy-it-now."  Came to $34.49 including shipping.  (See auction #     271443185937    )  So this is the third 0-6-0 that came up for sale.  When the dust settled and as I scrambled between computer screens the second one had sold for $42 + $9 shipping for a total of $51.00.  The $97.00 loco was advertised as a known runner, (should have been for the price), but the last two both said un-tested.  So for what I bought I came in $16.51 under the mid-priced sale.  So if it arrives in one piece/undamaged, and runs, I'll be quite happy.  The expensive one was a dandy, but out of my retirement budget range.  I'll believe it when it's here, but in the mean time, it's been a good run. Cheers, Dennis Thompson E WA wheatlands............... At 04:00 PM 4/1/2014, you wrote:           Looks like it's been dressed-up with one of the Kemtron parts sets (I think there were 3 different).       Fred Holladay   From: bitlerisvj@... Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:00:14 -0400 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!   Good luck on that Denis, It really shouldn't go for that high a price, unless someone thinks they are bidding on the more rare one, described in the attached email below.  I picked up one of these at a train show for $10 along with other stuff.  It runs really nice, but someone butchered the rear mounting lugs, so I have to create new ones and sister them in somehow.  A bit of brass work and a couple of hours ought to do it.  I think they couldn't figure out how to mount Kadee couplers?  That will be a trick, but would have been much easier had it not been butchered. Here is one that has been heavily modified, but it looks like it was a very nice job. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tenshodo-HO-all-metal-2-6-0T-Steam-engine-/141236451447?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item20e2593877 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC Vic Bitleris asks -- Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC No, Vic. That's Tenshodo's later, much more common, long 0-6-0T. Also available (I seem to recall) as a 2-6-2T, which may be what those extra wheel-pairs and hardware in the auction photo are about. The engine I have is in the first five pictures in my David's Vintage Junkarola folder in the PHOTOS section. Not as impressive looking as its later brother. -- D I wish you hadn't said that, I was going to bid on it :-( Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22492	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T

On 4/3/2014 8:46 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote: Well, 3 Tenshodo 0-6-0T's have just completed selling on ebay: The first that went for $91, plus $6 postage for a total of $97, had, yes Fred you are right, the Kemtron DeLuxe, "Woods Engine," kit installed, (page 24 of my old Kemtron catalog I've had since c.1958). And Yes again, I drooled over the Woods Conversion when I was a kid looking at this very same catalog here, just as I had drooled over the basic kit.  There was a very good photo of the model in the ebay auction.  I was surprised at the angle of the photo because, to me, it showed the piston valved cylinder set looking almost too large for the locomotive for proportion.  But it could have been the photo too.  However, it set me back a bit for appeal.  Never mattered anyway as I could not afford what it sold for.  In fact, I wouldn't have paid $97 for it even if I could afford it.  I wonder who got it?  The second one was the basic model plus it's original box.  Now I suppose that box contributed some value itself.  I bid on that one, as Don noticed.  Late in the bidding darned if I didn't stumble a new listing for a third Tenshodo 0-6-0 with a buy-it-now price of $29.99.  Of course I had no choice but to, "buy-it-now."  Came to $34.49 including shipping.  (See auction #     271443185937    )  So this is the third 0-6-0 that came up for sale.  When the dust settled and as I scrambled between computer screens the second one had sold for $42 + $9 shipping for a total of $51.00.  The $97.00 loco was advertised as a known runner, (should have been for the price), but the last two both said un-tested.  So for what I bought I came in $16.51 under the mid-priced sale.  So if it arrives in one piece/undamaged, and runs, I'll be quite happy.  The expensive one was a dandy, but out of my retirement budget range.  I'll believe it when it's here, but in the mean time, it's been a good run. Cheers, Dennis Thompson E WA wheatlands............... At 04:00 PM 4/1/2014, you wrote:           Looks like it's been dressed-up with one of the Kemtron parts sets (I think there were 3 different).       Fred Holladay   From: bitlerisvj@... Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:00:14 -0400 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!   Good luck on that Denis, It really shouldn't go for that high a price, unless someone thinks they are bidding on the more rare one, described in the attached email below.  I picked up one of these at a train show for $10 along with other stuff.  It runs really nice, but someone butchered the rear mounting lugs, so I have to create new ones and sister them in somehow.  A bit of brass work and a couple of hours ought to do it.  I think they couldn't figure out how to mount Kadee couplers?  That will be a trick, but would have been much easier had it not been butchered. Here is one that has been heavily modified, but it looks like it was a very nice job. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tenshodo-HO-all-metal-2-6-0T-Steam-engine-/141236451447?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item20e2593877 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC Vic Bitleris asks -- Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC No, Vic. That's Tenshodo's later, much more common, long 0-6-0T. Also available (I seem to recall) as a 2-6-2T, which may be what those extra wheel-pairs and hardware in the auction photo are about. The engine I have is in the first five pictures in my David's Vintage Junkarola folder in the PHOTOS section. Not as impressive looking as its later brother. -- D I wish you hadn't said that, I was going to bid on it :-( Don And I still don't have one :-( Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22493	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T

Thanks, John, that's good of you to offer.  I'll make a report when it gets here. Dennis Thompson At 07:05 PM 4/3/2014, you wrote: If you need a motor, I have a spare.  Let me know and I'll send it to you. John B. Allyn From: "Dennis Thompson" <dbtrail@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 8:46:27 PM Subject: [vintageHO] RE:: The Thrill of Victory---now Tenshodo 0-6-0T   Well, 3 Tenshodo 0-6-0T's have just completed selling on ebay: The first that went for $91, plus $6 postage for a total of $97, had, yes Fred you are right, the Kemtron DeLuxe, "Woods Engine," kit installed, (page 24 of my old Kemtron catalog I've had since c.1958). And Yes again, I drooled over the Woods Conversion when I was a kid looking at this very same catalog here, just as I had drooled over the basic kit.  There was a very good photo of the model in the ebay auction.  I was surprised at the angle of the photo because, to me, it showed the piston valved cylinder set looking almost too large for the locomotive for proportion.  But it could have been the photo too.  However, it set me back a bit for appeal.  Never mattered anyway as I could not afford what it sold for.  In fact, I wouldn't have paid $97 for it even if I could afford it.  I wonder who got it?  The second one was the basic model plus it's original box.  Now I suppose that box contributed some value itself.  I bid on that one, as Don noticed.  Late in the bidding darned if I didn't stumble a new listing for a third Tenshodo 0-6-0 with a buy-it-now price of $29.99.  Of course I had no choice but to, "buy-it-now."  Came to $34.49 including shipping.  (See auction #     271443185937    )  So this is the third 0-6-0 that came up for sale.  When the dust settled and as I scrambled between computer screens the second one had sold for $42 + $9 shipping for a total of $51.00.  The $97.00 loco was advertised as a known runner, (should have been for the price), but the last two both said un-tested.  So for what I bought I came in $16.51 under the mid-priced sale.  So if it arrives in one piece/undamaged, and runs, I'll be quite happy.  The expensive one was a dandy, but out of my retirement budget range.  I'll believe it when it's here, but in the mean time, it's been a good run. Cheers, Dennis Thompson E WA wheatlands............... At 04:00 PM 4/1/2014, you wrote:           Looks like it's been dressed-up with one of the Kemtron parts sets (I think there were 3 different).       Fred Holladay   From: bitlerisvj@... Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 09:00:14 -0400 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of D'oh!!!   Good luck on that Denis, It really shouldn't go for that high a price, unless someone thinks they are bidding on the more rare one, described in the attached email below.  I picked up one of these at a train show for $10 along with other stuff.  It runs really nice, but someone butchered the rear mounting lugs, so I have to create new ones and sister them in somehow.  A bit of brass work and a couple of hours ought to do it.  I think they couldn't figure out how to mount Kadee couplers?  That will be a trick, but would have been much easier had it not been butchered. Here is one that has been heavily modified, but it looks like it was a very nice job. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tenshodo-HO-all-metal-2-6-0T-Steam-engine-/141236451447?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item20e2593877 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC Vic Bitleris asks -- Is this the engine you are talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Tenshodo-0-6-0-Train-Tank-Loco-From-Japan-With-Original-Box-No-Reserve-/331163503269?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item4d1ae20aa5 Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC No, Vic. That's Tenshodo's later, much more common, long 0-6-0T. Also available (I seem to recall) as a 2-6-2T, which may be what those extra wheel-pairs and hardware in the auction photo are about. The engine I have is in the first five pictures in my David's Vintage Junkarola folder in the PHOTOS section. Not as impressive looking as its later brother. -- D I wish you hadn't said that, I was going to bid on it :-( Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22494	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 4/3/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory- Tenshodo 0-6-0T-new hunt...

Now I feel bad. Hmmmm. OK. We all 'gotta find a Tenshodo 0-6-0T for Don. Dennis Thompson >And I still don't have one :-( > >Don > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22495	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/4/2014
Subject: Re: : The Thrill of Victory- Tenshodo 0-6-0T-new hunt...

On 4/3/2014 10:48 PM, Dennis Thompson wrote: > Now I feel bad. Hmmmm. OK. We all 'gotta find a Tenshodo 0-6-0T for Don. > > Dennis Thompson > > > > >> And I still don't have one :-( >> >> Don >> >> That's OK. I wasn't looking for one, but when that first one caught my eye, I thought "Gee, if I could get that for $ 25.00 that'd be neat". Then I saw your post that you bid, so I backed off. When I saw what it went for, I didn't feel so bad, I'd have dropped out anyway. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22496	From: dst8596587@aol.com	Date: 4/5/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® III mini, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: jgpedwards@... Date:04/03/2014 10:22 AM (GMT-05:00) To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Sorting and culling...   Hey Ken: Silly system: Your message about the GG-1 came to me via the group and I didn't have your email addy so please email me from your email acc't and I'll respond.  Best, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22497	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 4/6/2014
Subject: Dynapack Mark IV

Is there any gossip, good or bad, about this old power pack? I have one and want to give it to a friend, but I don't want to give him any "junque."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22498	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 4/7/2014
Subject: Re: Dynapack Mark IV

I was just using one a few weeks ago at a friends layout (he has successfully avoided DCC so far) and it worked fine. They had a great reputation 'back in the day' and my brother owned one and loved it. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <fhultberg@...> wrote : Is there any gossip, good or bad, about this old power pack? I have one and want to give it to a friend, but I don't want to give him any "junque."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22499	From: J. Gareth Edwards	Date: 4/7/2014
Subject: Re: Dynapack Mark IV

I have one of the old dual units I was gonna offer for sale, any takers??? -Jeff On 7 April 2014 09:09, <mattjcoleman@...> wrote:   I was just using one a few weeks ago at a friends layout (he has successfully avoided DCC so far) and it worked fine. They had a great reputation 'back in the day' and my brother owned one and loved it. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <fhultberg@...> wrote : Is there any gossip, good or bad, about this old power pack? I have one and want to give it to a friend, but I don't want to give him any "junque." -- "A is A" ~ Aristotle

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22500	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Re: Dynapack Mark IV

Thanks for the input, fellas!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22501	From: texpearson@aol.com	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Fw: texpearson@aol.com

Hi!       News:  http://olnb.org/db/page.php.php   texpearson@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22502	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Varney loco parts

List, I just posted a photo in the files of a Varney chassis. I need the proper pony truck and trailing truck that fits this brass version frame to make a 4-6-2 or 4-6-4. Anyone have the correct ones with all the parts to attach? I have Varney parts here to jerry rig it into something that would work but I would rather build with the correct parts. Thanks, Gary

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22503	From: rcjge	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

Hey Guys: I have an AB combo of Varney F3's with the 2 step pulley motors. My plan is to kitbash them into a Canadian pair of F-Units. That means modifying them but here's the thing. I want them to be "kosher" or Orthodox to their era. So nominally assuming 1959 as a purchasing time, what mods would have been appropriate to that era.... I'm assuming no air-brushing? But filing the seam of the back doors, adding lighting, filing off the overhang and cutting down the fans which look more FT like than F3 like. CN or CP had no FT's as far as I know..... Anyway suggestions would be appreciated..... Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22504	From: rcjge	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Vintage Locomotive weights....

Hey Guys: Just out of curiosity I was thinking of once I convert my Mill and lathe to CNC I would produce various locomotive weights for vintage locomotives. For example the Varney F3's.... but for Steam as well.... small runs; 20+ of each? Like to get some feedback on this... Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22505	From: david_helber	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Mystery Vintage Couplers

I have added a PHOTOS folder named Couplers - Old and Odd with some of my collected images of vintage and unusual American HO couplers.  Can anyone identify the mystery couplers in the first four photos? It's possible they're homemade (the car they're on is) and home designed. If so, it's a pretty good job. Main drawback is the length of the thick shaft which may have forced the designer to move the trucks toward the center of the car.  They appear to work by having a pivoting wire closure or hook ride over a horizontal spike to couple, and get pivoted upward by a track-ramp to release. The system is similar to the Megow coupler, but uses a screw as the pivot axis instead of a horizontal hole. Any info on these would be welcome. Thanks. The guy who posted these photos on the Yahoo MRCouplers group got no replies - but the group is largely inactive, so that's not surprising.  -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22506	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers

You mean the caboose? That is a Megow's kit. I also have that car in my collection. As to the couplers, no clue, except that I have had cars that also had those, so if they are home made, then they would have to be from published plans. I have also seen them, in larger form, on O scale 2-rail cars. No one ever seems to know what these are, either. A real mystery! Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: "dnhelber@..." <dnhelber@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:18 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Vintage Couplers   I have added a PHOTOS folder named Couplers - Old and Odd with some of my collected images of vintage and unusual American HO couplers.  Can anyone identify the mystery couplers in the first four photos? It's possible they're homemade (the car they're on is) and home designed. If so, it's a pretty good job. Main drawback is the length of the thick shaft which may have forced the designer to move the trucks toward the center of the car.  They appear to work by having a pivoting wire closure or hook ride over a horizontal spike to couple, and get pivoted upward by a track-ramp to release. The system is similar to the Megow coupler, but uses a screw as the pivot axis instead of a horizontal hole. Any info on these would be welcome. Thanks. The guy who posted these photos on the Yahoo MRCouplers group got no replies - but the group is largely inactive, so that's not surprising.  -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22507	From: david_helber	Date: 4/8/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers

Megow's kit, eh? I thought surely with the wonky-cut windows and very basic wooden floor/frame, that it was homebuilt. But then I forget that those early kits were essentially a box of raw materials and an instruction sheet telling you where to cut and glue. Thanks for the info, Steve. I'll update the captions. -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22508	From: Denis Long	Date: 4/9/2014
Subject: Re: [vintageHO Magnetizing Motors

Attachments : Hello Vic, I have my neo magnets.  I have two, unused, Penn Line Pittman  style motors (for my T1).  My thought was to to increase the performance of the4se motors.  My pland was to simply ayyach the new magnets on tyop of the motor/ magnet housing.  What a fathead I was, I have read that in doing this, it neutralizes, the existing Alnico magnets, and in effect, runs the motor on the Neo magnets, as though the Alnicos were no longer there. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:38 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO Magnetizing Motors     Hi Denis, I agree that this magnetism polarity issue could get confusing.  But, I am quite sure it can be easily simplified.  The important part is to install the new magnet in the same polarity orientation as the old one.  There are a couple of ways to get it wrong.  One way the motor would run backward, the other ways, it may not run at all.   So, while the old magnet is still in place, find out how it is oriented.  You can do that using the new magnets.  If the new magnet sticks to the old, that should be a good orientation.   I would limit myself to ONE magnet if I could or at least ONE STACK of magnets if one magnet won't do.  If you use TWO stacks, then there are real orientation issues, ie. they two stacks need to repel, is my understanding. (not sure why? and I could be wrong here).  Don't be alarmed if the only magnets you get are smaller than the original.  Even magnets of half the original size will do wonders to the motor.  Example; old magnet 1/2" high by 1/2" and  3/8" deep can be replaced very nicely with four 1/8" by 1/4" by 1/2" or 3/8 " magnets.  As long as the magnetic orientation is good.  If you cannot get a good "seal" or a nice fit, just add tin shims to the top and/or bottom to get a good fit, it works. Now, I am aware that Pittman made several different styles of DC motors, but I am not sure of the style you refer to and I am not sure what you mean by "attach to the top of the Pittman housing"?  Some of the laminated Pittman motors can be interesting to replace magnets in and that work would need to be studied. However, the regular Pittman open frame motors that can be found, for example, in Hobbytown of Boston chassis can have the magnets easily replaced.  I would expect that you would REPLACE the old magnet and not add on top of it.  I question if placing on top of an existing magnet would help?  The URLs I referred to showed examples of replaced magnets. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: avanti78@... Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:27:06 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Thanks, Vic and the Person that Indicated that He attached the Magnets to the Existing Motor Housing, I have purchased a bunch of the K&G magnets, which I intend to attach to the top of the Pittman housing on my current T-1 projects.   What I’m not sure of is the orientation of the new magnets on the housing.   I think I understand the north/south & compass procedure, but the introduction of how the existing magnets where initially magnetized, is something I don’t know how to establish. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 8:19 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Hi Guys, I am familiar with this article and saved off a couple of large chokes from an old stereo set I had about 30 years ago, but never got around to doing this.  There was just something strange about connecting those chokes to a car battery that I just didn't feel right about.  Actually, I was able to find motor replacements without weak magnets cheap enough.  I don't know if I still have these chokes in the garage kicking around. Page forward to TODAY. Remember, just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If one does not wish to upgrade vintage motors to nice new can motors, (completely understandable) then considering the cheap cost and easy availability of neodymium magnets, it really doesn't make sense at all to re-magnetize the old motors using the above(questionable) method.  Way back when my older brother graduated college with his EE, he went to work for a company called General Magnetics in the Detroit area.  He did tell me about the specialized equipment used to energize magnets, so I am thinking the choke and car battery method, while it may work, is not really feasible for a real value.   Check out the following two real world articles about remagnetizing old motors with new magnets.   http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html   The above article is specifically for the Mantua MU type motors, used in powering sharks and other lococs.  The magnets are perfect 1/2" cubes and fit perfectly.   http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/131024.aspx   The above article shows a cheap way of upgrading the PM-1 motors.  You can try to find exact sizes or just stack em.  If you cannot get a perfect tight fit, shim with an appropriate sized piece of tinplate from a vegetable or coffee can.  Even if you use a 1/16" shim, the new magnets will do wonders.   Here is where you can purchase the magnets, shipping is VERY reasonable, and much cheaper than chokes and car batteries.   http://www.kjmagnetics.com/categories.asp?gclid=CJfAjsnGir0CFQ2hOgod6CoAdw   So, it is completely understandable to want to keep the motors that came with the locos for LOTS of different and valid reasons, but in my opinion, to attempt to re-magnetize a not very good magnet boarders on wasteful.  The new neodymium magnets do three very nice things to these old motors. 1. They give them more power. 2. They start running at a much lower voltage. 3. They draw a lot less current. Considering the benefits of new magnets, I can only think that someone re-magnetizing old motors would do so only for "historical" reasons or just as an experiment to see if it can help.   Just my 2 cents. Yes I do know the whole idea here is to have fun.  I have a bit more fun when my locos run better, but I also understand that some folks just like to experiment. Regards Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:56:40 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     There is an article in September 1972 issue of Model Railroader titled “Motor magnets and how to charge them” by Ben King (ppg 59 – 61). It involves using filter chokes from old TV sets. I don’t know just how available these pieces are these days as most TV’s have been solid state for years albeit I have no idea if that means they do or do not have filter chokes. Methinks I’ll make a trip to the local American Scientific store and look around there.   Anyway it gives a good idea of what is involved in remagnetizing magnets. I found many references to having motor magnets remagnatized through the years in MR mags so it seems this was common practice years ago. There is a definite possibility that slot car hobby shop may be able to do it and, of course, electric motor repair shops may still be able to but where to find these places these days …….   Then it becomes a question if replacing the magnets with the rare earth magnets (As mentioned by Mike Bauers) may not be a better solution if maintaining the motors original configuration is not high on your wish list.   Or, as also mentioned just replace the motor but that can lead to problems in fitting of u-joints, flywheels, etc. to mate with the rest of the chassis. Some models will be easy other difficult. I find the idea of retaining the old, open frame motors, at least the Pittman and Pittman copies to be rather attractive to me. If I can cobble up one of Mr. King’s recharging tools I’d like to try it.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Yes.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22509	From: MWM	Date: 4/9/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers

These look like Red Ball brand couplers. I have some cars with these too, and they date, I think, to the early 50s. Somewhere I have an unopened envelope with these illustrated on it but I am moving soon and everything is packed up. If I find it I will post a photo.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22510	From: wlon17	Date: 4/9/2014
Subject: Pictures of old couplers

Hi All,  This is to inform you that I have added pictures of the old couplers on some vintage cars in the album Walker's trains. Thanks. Lon Walker

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22511	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/9/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers

Now that you said Redball, I just found what I believe is them: http://hoseeker.net/redball/redball5thcatalog1949pg06.jpg Finally I know what these couplers are! I presume these were made in O scale too, as I have had O versions of these and they are larger. Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: MWM <docmwm@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:03 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers   These look like Red Ball brand couplers. I have some cars with these too, and they date, I think, to the early 50s. Somewhere I have an unopened envelope with these illustrated on it but I am moving soon and everything is packed up. If I find it I will post a photo.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22512	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Pictures of old couplers

Is the Megow coupler in the photo showing the envelope, wire and casting, the same as the Red Ball, or compatible with the Red Ball? Who came first? Walter On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 2:11 AM, <wlon17@...> wrote:   Hi All,  This is to inform you that I have added pictures of the old couplers on some vintage cars in the album Walker's trains. Thanks. Lon Walker -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22513	From: david_helber	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers

I wonder if the mystery coupler was an early version of the Megow coupler. Maybe provided on their kits, but not offered for separate sale? Both have a cast body and a vertically-pivoting wire piece. I don't know if the normal Megow couplers had a horizontal spike, like the mystery couplers. In the photo of the Medow coupler parts, there are some brads that might be intended for use as the spike. If somebody has a good photo of the production Megow coupler, maybe he could add it to the Couplers - Old and Odd folder in PHOTOS. -- D ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <computersystemrebuild@...> wrote : You mean the caboose? That is a Megow's kit. I also have that car in my collection. As to the couplers, no clue, except that I have had cars that also had those, so if they are home made, then they would have to be from published plans. I have also seen them, in larger form, on O scale 2-rail cars. No one ever seems to know what these are, either. A real mystery! Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: "dnhelber@..." <dnhelber@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:18 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Vintage Couplers   I have added a PHOTOS folder named Couplers - Old and Odd with some of my collected images of vintage and unusual American HO couplers.  Can anyone identify the mystery couplers in the first four photos? It's possible they're homemade (the car they're on is) and home designed. If so, it's a pretty good job. Main drawback is the length of the thick shaft which may have forced the designer to move the trucks toward the center of the car.  They appear to work by having a pivoting wire closure or hook ride over a horizontal spike to couple, and get pivoted upward by a track-ramp to release. The system is similar to the Megow coupler, but uses a screw as the pivot axis instead of a horizontal hole. Any info on these would be welcome. Thanks. The guy who posted these photos on the Yahoo MRCouplers group got no replies - but the group is largely inactive, so that's not surprising.  -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22514	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Varney Streamliner

List, just posted several photos of a Varney streamliner I have been working on. I think a paint job is in order soon. I have to decide a scheme. Thinking black over aluminum over maroon. Kinda like a Lehigh Valley look. Tender was constructed yesterday. Scratch built from styrene. ...Gary

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22515	From: david_helber	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers

The Red Ball couplers in the HOSeeker link do not work the same as the mystery couplers. They have no horizontal screw, for one thing. --D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22516	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner

Hi Gary M., Very nice work and the tender design compliments the locomotive well. I think old Gordon Varney himself would approve – and likely copy it for production! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22517	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner

Thanks W Jay W. The tender loosely resembles those of the PRR and NYC streamliners. Since the Varney loco has no prototype, well, anything goes. I was going to do a shorter in length tender as the loco is currently the 4-6-2 version. I plan on obtaining the 4 wheel trailing truck someday to model the 4-6-4 version, so, the longer tender. ...Gary --- Original Message --- From: the_plainsman@... Sent: April 10, 2014 12:19 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamliner Hi Gary M., Very nice work and the tender design compliments the locomotive well. I think old Gordon Varney himself would approve – and likely copy it for production! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22518	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner

Looks fantastic !!!! Have you decided upon the engine skirts yet ?? Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 10, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > > List, just posted several photos of a Varney streamliner I have > been working on. I think a paint job is in order soon. I have to > decide a scheme. Thinking black over aluminum over maroon. Kinda > like a Lehigh Valley look. Tender was constructed yesterday. Scratch > built from styrene. ...Gary

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22519	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner

Thanks. Engine skirts? They're on. Luckily they came with the parts I acquired. ..Gary --- Original Message --- From: "Mike Bauers" <mwbauers55@...> Sent: April 10, 2014 2:09 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney Streamliner Looks fantastic !!!! Have you decided upon the engine skirts yet ?? Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 10, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Gary Mittner wrote: > > List, just posted several photos of a Varney streamliner I have > been working on. I think a paint job is in order soon. I have to > decide a scheme. Thinking black over aluminum over maroon. Kinda > like a Lehigh Valley look. Tender was constructed yesterday. Scratch > built from styrene. ...Gary ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22520	From: greenbrier614	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: [vintageHO Magnetizing Motors

I made that mistake with a Flyer Hudson. I stuck a stack of neodymiums to the back of the motor (the older type with the disc magnet) as a test, and when I removed them the motor was dead. They had completely drained the alnico magnet, and I was only able to find one dealer who sold disk magnets that were polarized along the edge. Fortunately it runs much stronger with the new magnets, even though they aren't a perfect fit. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/NickelPlate759/American%20Flyer%20HO/AFMotorWithNeodymiumDiscMagnets.jpg It also makes me wonder if this practice of sticking a single neo to the top and bottom of the old magnet can possibly have much effect, and if it weakens the original. So far I'm only seen this practice for vintage European models. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=191131365302 Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <avanti78@...> wrote : Hello Vic, I have my neo magnets.  I have two, unused, Penn Line Pittman  style motors (for my T1).  My thought was to to increase the performance of the4se motors.  My pland was to simply ayyach the new magnets on tyop of the motor/ magnet housing.  What a fathead I was, I have read that in doing this, it neutralizes, the existing Alnico magnets, and in effect, runs the motor on the Neo magnets, as though the Alnicos were no longer there. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22521	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: [vintageHO Magnetizing Motors

I wouldn't do that.  I would first make sure of the correct N and S orientation and then replace the old with the new.  I cannot imagine what would happen with the magnetic flux by placing a very strong magnet on top of a weaker one. Regards, Vic B. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: avanti78@... Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2014 18:49:35 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] RE: [vintageHO Magnetizing Motors   Hello Vic, I have my neo magnets.  I have two, unused, Penn Line Pittman  style motors (for my T1).  My thought was to to increase the performance of the4se motors.  My pland was to simply ayyach the new magnets on tyop of the motor/ magnet housing.  What a fathead I was, I have read that in doing this, it neutralizes, the existing Alnico magnets, and in effect, runs the motor on the Neo magnets, as though the Alnicos were no longer there. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 8:38 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO Magnetizing Motors     Hi Denis, I agree that this magnetism polarity issue could get confusing.  But, I am quite sure it can be easily simplified.  The important part is to install the new magnet in the same polarity orientation as the old one.  There are a couple of ways to get it wrong.  One way the motor would run backward, the other ways, it may not run at all.   So, while the old magnet is still in place, find out how it is oriented.  You can do that using the new magnets.  If the new magnet sticks to the old, that should be a good orientation.   I would limit myself to ONE magnet if I could or at least ONE STACK of magnets if one magnet won't do.  If you use TWO stacks, then there are real orientation issues, ie. they two stacks need to repel, is my understanding. (not sure why? and I could be wrong here).  Don't be alarmed if the only magnets you get are smaller than the original.  Even magnets of half the original size will do wonders to the motor.  Example; old magnet 1/2" high by 1/2" and  3/8" deep can be replaced very nicely with four 1/8" by 1/4" by 1/2" or 3/8 " magnets.  As long as the magnetic orientation is good.  If you cannot get a good "seal" or a nice fit, just add tin shims to the top and/or bottom to get a good fit, it works. Now, I am aware that Pittman made several different styles of DC motors, but I am not sure of the style you refer to and I am not sure what you mean by "attach to the top of the Pittman housing"?  Some of the laminated Pittman motors can be interesting to replace magnets in and that work would need to be studied. However, the regular Pittman open frame motors that can be found, for example, in Hobbytown of Boston chassis can have the magnets easily replaced.  I would expect that you would REPLACE the old magnet and not add on top of it.  I question if placing on top of an existing magnet would help?  The URLs I referred to showed examples of replaced magnets. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: avanti78@... Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 19:27:06 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Thanks, Vic and the Person that Indicated that He attached the Magnets to the Existing Motor Housing, I have purchased a bunch of the K&G magnets, which I intend to attach to the top of the Pittman housing on my current T-1 projects.   What I’m not sure of is the orientation of the new magnets on the housing.   I think I understand the north/south & compass procedure, but the introduction of how the existing magnets where initially magnetized, is something I don’t know how to establish. Denis   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Victor Bitleris Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2014 8:19 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Hi Guys, I am familiar with this article and saved off a couple of large chokes from an old stereo set I had about 30 years ago, but never got around to doing this.  There was just something strange about connecting those chokes to a car battery that I just didn't feel right about.  Actually, I was able to find motor replacements without weak magnets cheap enough.  I don't know if I still have these chokes in the garage kicking around. Page forward to TODAY. Remember, just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. If one does not wish to upgrade vintage motors to nice new can motors, (completely understandable) then considering the cheap cost and easy availability of neodymium magnets, it really doesn't make sense at all to re-magnetize the old motors using the above(questionable) method.  Way back when my older brother graduated college with his EE, he went to work for a company called General Magnetics in the Detroit area.  He did tell me about the specialized equipment used to energize magnets, so I am thinking the choke and car battery method, while it may work, is not really feasible for a real value.   Check out the following two real world articles about remagnetizing old motors with new magnets.   http://webspace.webring.com/people/ib/budb3/arts/xmpl/mmu2mag.html   The above article is specifically for the Mantua MU type motors, used in powering sharks and other lococs.  The magnets are perfect 1/2" cubes and fit perfectly.   http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/131024.aspx   The above article shows a cheap way of upgrading the PM-1 motors.  You can try to find exact sizes or just stack em.  If you cannot get a perfect tight fit, shim with an appropriate sized piece of tinplate from a vegetable or coffee can.  Even if you use a 1/16" shim, the new magnets will do wonders.   Here is where you can purchase the magnets, shipping is VERY reasonable, and much cheaper than chokes and car batteries.   http://www.kjmagnetics.com/categories.asp?gclid=CJfAjsnGir0CFQ2hOgod6CoAdw   So, it is completely understandable to want to keep the motors that came with the locos for LOTS of different and valid reasons, but in my opinion, to attempt to re-magnetize a not very good magnet boarders on wasteful.  The new neodymium magnets do three very nice things to these old motors. 1. They give them more power. 2. They start running at a much lower voltage. 3. They draw a lot less current. Considering the benefits of new magnets, I can only think that someone re-magnetizing old motors would do so only for "historical" reasons or just as an experiment to see if it can help.   Just my 2 cents. Yes I do know the whole idea here is to have fun.  I have a bit more fun when my locos run better, but I also understand that some folks just like to experiment. Regards Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: sprinthag@... Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 19:56:40 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     There is an article in September 1972 issue of Model Railroader titled “Motor magnets and how to charge them” by Ben King (ppg 59 – 61). It involves using filter chokes from old TV sets. I don’t know just how available these pieces are these days as most TV’s have been solid state for years albeit I have no idea if that means they do or do not have filter chokes. Methinks I’ll make a trip to the local American Scientific store and look around there.   Anyway it gives a good idea of what is involved in remagnetizing magnets. I found many references to having motor magnets remagnatized through the years in MR mags so it seems this was common practice years ago. There is a definite possibility that slot car hobby shop may be able to do it and, of course, electric motor repair shops may still be able to but where to find these places these days …….   Then it becomes a question if replacing the magnets with the rare earth magnets (As mentioned by Mike Bauers) may not be a better solution if maintaining the motors original configuration is not high on your wish list.   Or, as also mentioned just replace the motor but that can lead to problems in fitting of u-joints, flywheels, etc. to mate with the rest of the chassis. Some models will be easy other difficult. I find the idea of retaining the old, open frame motors, at least the Pittman and Pittman copies to be rather attractive to me. If I can cobble up one of Mr. King’s recharging tools I’d like to try it.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     Yes.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of avanti78@... Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 6:49 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Remagnetizing Motors     All, Isn't there some way to remagnitize these motors??????????????? How about using my handy-dandy home magnetizer I got from a cereal offer, along with a secret decoder ring? Seriously, is there a way? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22522	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop coupler installation:

Well, this 'oughta start something............ I'm preparing to equip several cars and 3, (for now), appropriate era locomotives with these new, state-of-the-art genuine Mantua hook & loop couplers. Most are p/n 710 packets and wood car installation is obvious as well as are some metal cars. Do we have any resource for installation tips for these on various makes of cars and lokies? I know most is common sense, but I plan to avoid any unnecessary drilling or alterations as I go along. To begin with, I have a Mantua made bobber caboose. Metal under-frame; red B&O plastic body. Has factory NMRA couplers held in place by bright silver stamped metal draft gear boxes. Holes/placements under boxes don't quite line up for the Mantua couplers. Before I drill I wonder if I'm missing something. Also would like to do a Penn Line D2 Whitcomb; same story - no obvious way to do it although the pilot beam draft gear openings are perfect in width and, probably, length. ??? I have to keep up with the times here............. Dennis in E WA state

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22523	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/10/2014
Subject: Re: Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop coupler installation:

I've obtained a lot of old locomotives that used Mantua Automatic couplers, but only had the loop, not the hook. That might make mounting to the Penn Line Whitcomb easier. A lot of my old stuff uses Mantua couplers still. Took a LOT of adjusting and tweaking, but I have them so that they can do what they are supposed to do: couple and uncouple automatically. Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: Dennis Thompson <dbtrail@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 11:54 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop coupler installation:   Well, this 'oughta start something............ I'm preparing to equip several cars and 3, (for now), appropriate era locomotives with these new, state-of-the-art genuine Mantua hook & loop couplers. Most are p/n 710 packets and wood car installation is obvious as well as are some metal cars. Do we have any resource for installation tips for these on various makes of cars and lokies? I know most is common sense, but I plan to avoid any unnecessary drilling or alterations as I go along. To begin with, I have a Mantua made bobber caboose. Metal under-frame; red B&O plastic body. Has factory NMRA couplers held in place by bright silver stamped metal draft gear boxes. Holes/placements under boxes don't quite line up for the Mantua couplers. Before I drill I wonder if I'm missing something. Also would like to do a Penn Line D2 Whitcomb; same story - no obvious way to do it although the pilot beam draft gear openings are perfect in width and, probably, length. ??? I have to keep up with the times here............. Dennis in E WA state

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22524	From: anypaddler	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)

Dennis in E WA State wrote: < NMRA couplers ----------------------------------------- Regardless of what the manufacturers labeled them, there never was a standard "NMRA coupler."  The NMRA did have a committee at one time that tried to design a standard coupler, but the Kadee K-series couplers came on the scene at about the same time.  Since the Kadee couplers looked like the prototype, and pretty much acted like them, most serious modelers converted to them, and the NMRA gave up on its project.   The correct name for the generic coupler used from the late 1950s onward is X2f.  The 'X' designates an experimental design, '2' is for the second major design, and 'f' is for the sixth variation of that second design.  If the NMRA had adopted the design as a standard, it would have had an S-designation; what standards there are, are covered under Standard S-2.   The reason for the great variety of X2f couplers is that the NMRA allowed manufacturers to use the design without paying a royalty, whereas using Kadee couplers meant buying from the patent holder.  Also, the X2f design was pretty much for the head only, not the pivot or spring, which is where you find the greatest variety.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22525	From: david_helber	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)

Thanks for the details of the X2F terminology, Ralph, but my understanding is that X2F is also an incorrect term for the huge majority of these couplers. The NMRA's X2F design specified a number of measurements. None, or nearly none, of the couplers provided on the ready-to-run or kit cars matched them all. Therefore those couplers are not X2Fs. As I understand it, the correct generic term for what was on the ends of most HO cars, is "horn-hook" or as some people say it, "hook-horn". The hook is the curved horizontal element that does the coupling, the horn is the droppy-downy bit that accomplishes the uncoupling when actuated by a suitable ramp in the track.  Of course, whether we say "NMRA" or "X2F" or "horn-hook," everyone knows what we mean. -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22526	From: david_helber	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop coupler installation:

Stephen (or anyone else with experience in using the Mantua loops): do you have any specific tips or general advice about installation or usage that might save some frustration for someone who wants to begin using the Mantua couplers? -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22527	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)

David is right.  The NMRA created the coupler committee for the purpose of developing a "standard" coupler.  Ease of interchange was the argument in favor which had logical but not practical appeal.  At the time the X2f coupler was developed the principal couplers were the Mantua hook-and-loop (reliable but completely unprototypical -- as an aside I remember a 1950's horror movie called "The Flying Claw" in which the monster flew off with an entire train, a task made much easier by the fact that the train was equipped with Mantua couplers.  So much for 1950's special effects), the Roundhouse knuckle coupler (very prototypical but not particularly reliable, especially with respect to uncoupling), mechanical Kadees (reliable, vaguely prototypical; Kadee's secret which I think led to its triumph was to have available a wide variety of mountings so that you could put a Kadee on just about every model then made without much in the way of modification), and dummies (prototypical appearance, required a "big hook" to couple or uncouple).  There were a few other brands available in the early 1950's but they were marginal.   The X2f was a good design provided that the design was followed closely.  Making the design available to all manufacturers was probably what killed it except for toy train use.  Within a few years manufacturers had modified the coupler to the point that they were incompatible or near-incompatible.  In the meantime Kadee came out with its magnetic coupler (MK and MKD) with a terrific variety of shanks.  It effectively became the standard coupler for serious modelers.  The push within the NMRA to standardize the X2f created a fair amount of bitterness, to the point that there were demands that Model Railroader only publicize the X2f.  The magazine, after an initial surge of enthusiasm for the X2f, adopted a neutral stance.  I don't know whether this came out of editorial wisdom or a concern for advertising income but it was well-placed.  In any event, the terms "NMRA" and "X2f" gradually disappeared as descriptors for the coupler as "horn-hook" took their place.    The problem with making the X2f standard arose first out of the misplaced belief that technology could remain forever fixed in a 1954 stone.  The development of delayed action magnetic couplers demonstrated otherwise.  PFM's development of a standard coupler box and Kadee's development of a wide variety of mountings made it less attractive.    This all being said, let's not return to the 1950"s coupler wars!   John B. Allyn From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:56:49 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)   Thanks for the details of the X2F terminology, Ralph, but my understanding is that X2F is also an incorrect term for the huge majority of these couplers. The NMRA's X2F design specified a number of measurements. None, or nearly none, of the couplers provided on the ready-to-run or kit cars matched them all. Therefore those couplers are not X2Fs. As I understand it, the correct generic term for what was on the ends of most HO cars, is "horn-hook" or as some people say it, "hook-horn". The hook is the curved horizontal element that does the coupling, the horn is the droppy-downy bit that accomplishes the uncoupling when actuated by a suitable ramp in the track.  Of course, whether we say "NMRA" or "X2F" or "horn-hook," everyone knows what we mean. -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22528	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)

Hi John, I LOVED that movie, The Giant Claw, when I was about 9 or 10 years old.  It really scared me, at that age.  I would love to see it again, but this time, it would be for the shear humor I would get out of it.   I am sure I would be Rolling On The Floor Laughing. I did not love the X2F or "NMRA" coupler as it was referred to most of the time.  I do disagree with you that it was a good design.  I feel it had one major flaw that really could not be fixed in a practical way.  The one big inherent problem with it was it required an equal amount of side force on each coupler for it to work properly and try to keep the cars from derailing.  Heaven help you when these were truck mounted.  While, in theory, it may have been possible to be ok, but it would have been too costly to provide this in a practical way.  If one were to equip ALL of their cars with a quality product like Rail Line, it may have worked ok, but it would still have paled in comparison to Kadees.  The worst part was that the prices of Rail Line and Kadees was not much different.  Yes, I do agree that most of the toy train makers made the problems even worse when they created really poor quality versions, which in my opinion gave the hobby a really bad name.  We and our hobby would have been much better off with non operating, static couplers than the very bad X2F that became pervasive for a while.  It sure took long enough to get to the point where we are now with the Kadee look alikes.  I guess that was because of a Patent?  There was no reasonable way to license the Kadee knuckle type coupler? Just my own opinion.   Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: john.allyn@... Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2014 15:33:02 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)   David is right.  The NMRA created the coupler committee for the purpose of developing a "standard" coupler.  Ease of interchange was the argument in favor which had logical but not practical appeal.  At the time the X2f coupler was developed the principal couplers were the Mantua hook-and-loop (reliable but completely unprototypical -- as an aside I remember a 1950's horror movie called "The Flying Claw" in which the monster flew off with an entire train, a task made much easier by the fact that the train was equipped with Mantua couplers.  So much for 1950's special effects), the Roundhouse knuckle coupler (very prototypical but not particularly reliable, especially with respect to uncoupling), mechanical Kadees (reliable, vaguely prototypical; Kadee's secret which I think led to its triumph was to have available a wide variety of mountings so that you could put a Kadee on just about every model then made without much in the way of modification), and dummies (prototypical appearance, required a "big hook" to couple or uncouple).  There were a few other brands available in the early 1950's but they were marginal.   The X2f was a good design provided that the design was followed closely.  Making the design available to all manufacturers was probably what killed it except for toy train use.  Within a few years manufacturers had modified the coupler to the point that they were incompatible or near-incompatible.  In the meantime Kadee came out with its magnetic coupler (MK and MKD) with a terrific variety of shanks.  It effectively became the standard coupler for serious modelers.  The push within the NMRA to standardize the X2f created a fair amount of bitterness, to the point that there were demands that Model Railroader only publicize the X2f.  The magazine, after an initial surge of enthusiasm for the X2f, adopted a neutral stance.  I don't know whether this came out of editorial wisdom or a concern for advertising income but it was well-placed.  In any event, the terms "NMRA" and "X2f" gradually disappeared as descriptors for the coupler as "horn-hook" took their place.    The problem with making the X2f standard arose first out of the misplaced belief that technology could remain forever fixed in a 1954 stone.  The development of delayed action magnetic couplers demonstrated otherwise.  PFM's development of a standard coupler box and Kadee's development of a wide variety of mountings made it less attractive.    This all being said, let's not return to the 1950"s coupler wars!   John B. Allyn From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:56:49 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)   Thanks for the details of the X2F terminology, Ralph, but my understanding is that X2F is also an incorrect term for the huge majority of these couplers. The NMRA's X2F design specified a number of measurements. None, or nearly none, of the couplers provided on the ready-to-run or kit cars matched them all. Therefore those couplers are not X2Fs. As I understand it, the correct generic term for what was on the ends of most HO cars, is "horn-hook" or as some people say it, "hook-horn". The hook is the curved horizontal element that does the coupling, the horn is the droppy-downy bit that accomplishes the uncoupling when actuated by a suitable ramp in the track.  Of course, whether we say "NMRA" or "X2F" or "horn-hook," everyone knows what we mean. -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22529	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner

Updated my album with a new photo. The streamliner is going through the paint shop. My first idea was to give this a colorful paint job. But, I like conservative color schemes. Didn't want it to look like a clown in a clown suit like a lot of old Varney streamliners are painted. I would much rather have it wear a tuxedo. So far the black and alcad steel is applied. Next is to apply silver stripping to accent the loco/tender colors. Then on to the loco chassis. Silver faced divers and cylinders, the rest black. ....Gary --- Original Message --- From: "Gary Mittner" <mittner@...> Sent: April 10, 2014 12:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamliner Thanks W Jay W. The tender loosely resembles those of the PRR and NYC streamliners. Since the Varney loco has no prototype, well, anything goes. I was going to do a shorter in length tender as the loco is currently the 4-6-2 version. I plan on obtaining the 4 wheel trailing truck someday to model the 4-6-4 version, so, the longer tender. ...Gary --- Original Message --- From: the_plainsman@... Sent: April 10, 2014 12:19 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamliner Hi Gary M., Very nice work and the tender design compliments the locomotive well. I think old Gordon Varney himself would approve – and likely copy it for production! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22530	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner

That is one stunning piece of machinery Gary!   Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: Gary Mittner <mittner@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamliner   Updated my album with a new photo. The streamliner is going through the paint shop. My first idea was to give this a colorful paint job. But, I like conservative color schemes. Didn't want it to look like a clown in a clown suit like a lot of old Varney streamliners are painted. I would much rather have it wear a tuxedo. So far the black and alcad steel is applied. Next is to apply silver stripping to accent the loco/tender colors. Then on to the loco chassis. Silver faced divers and cylinders, the rest black. ....Gary --- Original Message --- From: "Gary Mittner" <mittner@...> Sent: April 10, 2014 12:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamliner Thanks W Jay W. The tender loosely resembles those of the PRR and NYC streamliners. Since the Varney loco has no prototype, well, anything goes. I was going to do a shorter in length tender as the loco is currently the 4-6-2 version. I plan on obtaining the 4 wheel trailing truck someday to model the 4-6-4 version, so, the longer tender. ...Gary --- Original Message --- From: the_plainsman@... Sent: April 10, 2014 12:19 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Varney Streamliner Hi Gary M., Very nice work and the tender design compliments the locomotive well. I think old Gordon Varney himself would approve – and likely copy it for production! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22531	From: Dale Smith	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)

I think the ultimate spin on these couplers came in the 1955 Gilbert HO catalog, in which Gilbert made the coupler sound like a great company achievement.  The catalog stated: "Couplers rated 'Best in the Field' by NMRA" ...  "Gilbert HO couplers were DEVELOPED and APPROVED by the HO Coupler Committee of the National Model Railroad Association.  Design engineering took several years before the Gilbert coupler (known to HO experts as the X2F) was perfected.  N.M.R.A. officials have called it the finest in the HO field - and a coupler that is operating perfection itself." Dale Smith On 4/11/2014 7:56 AM, dnhelber@... wrote:   Thanks for the details of the X2F terminology, Ralph, but my understanding is that X2F is also an incorrect term for the huge majority of these couplers. The NMRA's X2F design specified a number of measurements. None, or nearly none, of the couplers provided on the ready-to-run or kit cars matched them all. Therefore those couplers are not X2Fs. As I understand it, the correct generic term for what was on the ends of most HO cars, is "horn-hook" or as some people say it, "hook-horn". The hook is the curved horizontal element that does the coupling, the horn is the droppy-downy bit that accomplishes the uncoupling when actuated by a suitable ramp in the track.  Of course, whether we say "NMRA" or "X2F" or "horn-hook," everyone knows what we mean. -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22532	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)

The X2f was (is) very similar to Gilbert's pre- and post-war coupler, which worked well in coupling, but needed the Giant Claw for uncoupling. The Gilbert, however was LEFT handed, for some reason, instead of right handed.  On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 3:14 PM, Dale Smith <dalefsmith@...> wrote:   I think the ultimate spin on these couplers came in the 1955 Gilbert HO catalog, in which Gilbert made the coupler sound like a great company achievement.  The catalog stated: "Couplers rated 'Best in the Field' by NMRA" ...  "Gilbert HO couplers were DEVELOPED and APPROVED by the HO Coupler Committee of the National Model Railroad Association.  Design engineering took several years before the Gilbert coupler (known to HO experts as the X2F) was perfected.  N.M.R.A. officials have called it the finest in the HO field - and a coupler that is operating perfection itself." Dale Smith On 4/11/2014 7:56 AM, dnhelber@... wrote:   Thanks for the details of the X2F terminology, Ralph, but my understanding is that X2F is also an incorrect term for the huge majority of these couplers. The NMRA's X2F design specified a number of measurements. None, or nearly none, of the couplers provided on the ready-to-run or kit cars matched them all. Therefore those couplers are not X2Fs. As I understand it, the correct generic term for what was on the ends of most HO cars, is "horn-hook" or as some people say it, "hook-horn". The hook is the curved horizontal element that does the coupling, the horn is the droppy-downy bit that accomplishes the uncoupling when actuated by a suitable ramp in the track.  Of course, whether we say "NMRA" or "X2F" or "horn-hook," everyone knows what we mean. -- David -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22533	From: larry Smith	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)

As an add on to this, the reason for the X2f design came about as a result of Kadee's patents and that the NMRA did not want to promote a proprietary design as a standard.  The NMRA disavowed the design and has not revisited the coupler issue since.  They have forcefully taken the stand, just as they did recently with the L gauge proposed standards of not promoting a standard when a company sets the standards or has a patent on the product.  Kadee's patents are gone as you can see by the numerous clones and a standard for a prototype coupler may or may not come out. Larry Smith  On 4/11/2014 10:33 AM, john.allyn@... wrote:   David is right.  The NMRA created the coupler committee for the purpose of developing a "standard" coupler.  Ease of interchange was the argument in favor which had logical but not practical appeal.  At the time the X2f coupler was developed the principal couplers were the Mantua hook-and-loop (reliable but completely unprototypical -- as an aside I remember a 1950's horror movie called "The Flying Claw" in which the monster flew off with an entire train, a task made much easier by the fact that the train was equipped with Mantua couplers.  So much for 1950's special effects), the Roundhouse knuckle coupler (very prototypical but not particularly reliable, especially with respect to uncoupling), mechanical Kadees (reliable, vaguely prototypical; Kadee's secret which I think led to its triumph was to have available a wide variety of mountings so that you could put a Kadee on just about every model then made without much in the way of modification), and dummies (prototypical appearance, required a "big hook" to couple or uncouple).  There were a few other brands available in the early 1950's but they were marginal.   The X2f was a good design provided that the design was followed closely.  Making the design available to all manufacturers was probably what killed it except for toy train use.  Within a few years manufacturers had modified the coupler to the point that they were incompatible or near-incompatible.  In the meantime Kadee came out with its magnetic coupler (MK and MKD) with a terrific variety of shanks.  It effectively became the standard coupler for serious modelers.  The push within the NMRA to standardize the X2f created a fair amount of bitterness, to the point that there were demands that Model Railroader only publicize the X2f.  The magazine, after an initial surge of enthusiasm for the X2f, adopted a neutral stance.  I don't know whether this came out of editorial wisdom or a concern for advertising income but it was well-placed.  In any event, the terms "NMRA" and "X2f" gradually disappeared as descriptors for the coupler as "horn-hook" took their place.    The problem with making the X2f standard arose first out of the misplaced belief that technology could remain forever fixed in a 1954 stone.  The development of delayed action magnetic couplers demonstrated otherwise.  PFM's development of a standard coupler box and Kadee's development of a wide variety of mountings made it less attractive.    This all being said, let's not return to the 1950"s coupler wars!   John B. Allyn From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:56:49 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: "NMRA coupler" (was Resource for Mantua Hook & Loop....)   Thanks for the details of the X2F terminology, Ralph, but my understanding is that X2F is also an incorrect term for the huge majority of these couplers. The NMRA's X2F design specified a number of measurements. None, or nearly none, of the couplers provided on the ready-to-run or kit cars matched them all. Therefore those couplers are not X2Fs. As I understand it, the correct generic term for what was on the ends of most HO cars, is "horn-hook" or as some people say it, "hook-horn". The hook is the curved horizontal element that does the coupling, the horn is the droppy-downy bit that accomplishes the uncoupling when actuated by a suitable ramp in the track.  Of course, whether we say "NMRA" or "X2F" or "horn-hook," everyone knows what we mean. -- David

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22534	From: rcjge	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Locomotive weights....

Seriously guys, no feedback?! Wow. -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22535	From: rcjge	Date: 4/11/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

What the term Kosher or Orthodox tick everyone off?  Wow compared to my Unimat forum it's like dead air! -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22536	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

Nah! No objection to the references here, Jeff, but from my point simply did not comment because other than agreeing with you about finishing off the models nicely, I just don't have any frame of reference for differences in Canadian prototypes, like many of us who grew up in the US. I can offer that in the timeframe you are modeling, I believe Varney no longer manufactured the die cast F-3 units and had switched over to the injected molded plastic ones, but undoubtedly many dealers still had the beautiful originals on their shelves. I have several diecast Varney F3's that were beautifully finished (and signed inside) by the early 1950's master C&O modeler and custom painter John Gascoyne. I particularly liked the flush fitting porthole and cab windows which he did well before Pacific HO came out with their detailing kit. Model Railroader pictured some his work in the late 50's early 60s but unfortunately not these units! There are some photographs of them in my album here titled "Plainsman's Picks." Good luck with your project and let us see how they turned out. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22537	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Streamliner

Hi Gary M., I may have that four wheel Varney trailing truck you're looking for in my spares, saving it for someday when I might need it for a project. I will take it out and post a photo later this weekend and if it's what you need, contact me off-line and I will get it out in the mail gratis. Will be nice to see it put to good use and be part of your almost completed project than be part of my parts hoard! On my back burner are two Varney locomotive projects, the one closest to completion is a Varney Super Pacific which I have to go over again and list the few parts I need to begin final assembly. Maybe you or someone else here might have what I need to bring that project to completion this year! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22538	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

Why?!?  Walter On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 10:22 PM, <jgpedwards@...> wrote:   What the term Kosher or Orthodox tick everyone off?  Wow compared to my Unimat forum it's like dead air! -Jeff -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22539	From: rcjge	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

Hi Jay Looked at those very pretty! I'm gonna have to see if there are any of those Pacific HO detailing kits around... Here's a great shot of a Canadian National F3 (GFA-15A) in Jan 1959. The CNR only bought 4 F3A's and 2 "B"'s. They were all built in May 1948 and were "Phase 3" units. So that's a start. It means lowering the fans.... So I'm thinking improve the rear door; didn't someone have diaphragm kits back then? Railings for sure Better lighting... Again it's about what would someone have done to one of thes back in the late 50's to make them look more "Deluxe" or "Prototypical" if you like... Anyone who knows what was available for detailing these units up to and including 1959 I'd appreciate hearing.... I plan to do a "Multi-drive" Hobbytown/Cary F3 set but done as later units as per orthodox in say the 70's? we'll see. Best, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22540	From: rcjge	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

Whoops! http://www.pwrs.ca/view_product.php?ProductID=113973 -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22541	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

I had a set of these back then.  I added lighting of the cab, headlight, class lights and number boards, glazing and handrails.  Walthers had paper diaphragms and someone else made neoprene diaphragms were available that looked very good ( I do nor remember the name of those at the moment).  I used the neoprene version.  These were the best running diesels that I ever owned until I built a Hobbytown E7...  Then I had two sets od diesels that were excellent runners.  Later I traded all of my diesels for steam. Happy railroading. Don Staton in Va. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 4/12/2014 1:29 PM, jgpedwards@... wrote:   Hi Jay Looked at those very pretty! I'm gonna have to see if there are any of those Pacific HO detailing kits around... Here's a great shot of a Canadian National F3 (GFA-15A) in Jan 1959. The CNR only bought 4 F3A's and 2 "B"'s. They were all built in May 1948 and were "Phase 3" units. So that's a start. It means lowering the fans.... So I'm thinking improve the rear door; didn't someone have diaphragm kits back then? Railings for sure Better lighting... Again it's about what would someone have done to one of thes back in the late 50's to make them look more "Deluxe" or "Prototypical" if you like... Anyone who knows what was available for detailing these units up to and including 1959 I'd appreciate hearing.... I plan to do a "Multi-drive" Hobbytown/Cary F3 set but done as later units as per orthodox in say the 70's? we'll see. Best, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22542	From: rcjge	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting and culling...

Hey Guys: Found and added a Lionel Track Cleaning car in excellent Condition... -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22543	From: david_helber	Date: 4/12/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

>  I'm assuming no air-brushing?  Hey Jeff, If you want to airbrush them, there's no reason you shouldn't. The first primitive airbrush was created in the 1870's and the first modern style airbrush was introduced by Thayer & Chandler in 1893. By the '20s and '30s, airbrushes were commonly used in illustration, photo-retouching and industrial production. It's perfectly possible that a modeler of 1959 could have painted his loco with one. I have no definitive info as to what method Varney used to paint its products, but I would guess an airbrush or other spray gun was quite likely in 1959. -- D - And as long as they sprayed the casein (milk-based) paints from a different airbrush than the paints containing animal oils, it would be kosher. :-) =============== ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <jgpedwards@...> wrote : Hey Guys: I have an AB combo of Varney F3's with the 2 step pulley motors. My plan is to kitbash them into a Canadian pair of F-Units. That means modifying them but here's the thing. I want them to be "kosher" or Orthodox to their era. So nominally assuming 1959 as a purchasing time, what mods would have been appropriate to that era.... I'm assuming no air-brushing? But filing the seam of the back doors, adding lighting, filing off the overhang and cutting down the fans which look more FT like than F3 like. CN or CP had no FT's as far as I know..... Anyway suggestions would be appreciated..... Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22544	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: John English 2-8-2 Question

I have a fine looking JE 2-8-2 that I am working on which is all original except for the brass details that have been added. It's also a nice runner, however it does have one problem that I would like to correct and that is that the middle two sets of drivers are flanged which causes it to derail on tight radius curves. I have seen photos of this loco with both blind drivers and flanged so I am wondering if JE made this loco both ways? At any rate, I guess I need to find two sets of blind drivers so that it will run properly without derailing. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22545	From: Riverboy	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Need Help With Parts ID

Attachments : ___unknownslopebacktender (2).JPG ___unknownslopebacktender (1).JPG ___unknownpart03 (3).JPG ___unknownpart03 (2).JPG ___unknownpart03 (1).JPG    Hello Group. I'm usually fairly quiet in this group, but I can always turn to you when I need help in identifying models or parts that I can't. Today I need help in identifying four different items. I have attached photos of what I can't figure out. I recently got all these in a "junk box" purchase. Item #1 is a brass four wheel slope back tender. The second item is what looks like some kind of diesel drive frame. The third is a steam cylinder casting of some sort, and lastly, is an incomplete 0-4-0 drive frame. If additional photos or information are needed on anything, please let me know. None of the parts have a part number or manufacturer stamp of any type. Thank you all in advance for the help. Usually someone will solve the mystery for me.  Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22546	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-2 Question

Attachments : Two options in your search may be Mantua/Tyco Mikado blind center drivers.  Bowser may still offer blind drivers for their/Penn Line Mikados.  You should measure the diameter of yours and then learn what the others are. Take care, Chuck Higdon   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rh@... Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 8:36 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] John English 2-8-2 Question     I have a fine looking JE 2-8-2 that I am working on which is all original except for the brass details that have been added. It's also a nice runner, however it does have one problem that I would like to correct and that is that the middle two sets of drivers are flanged which causes it to derail on tight radius curves. I have seen photos of this loco with both blind drivers and flanged so I am wondering if JE made this loco both ways? At any rate, I guess I need to find two sets of blind drivers so that it will run properly without derailing. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22547	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-2 Question

Hi Richard, I have a set of all 4 drivers, including the blind drivers. (also have the bopiler, frame, poilot and valve gear.) You can have the drivers for whatever you wanty to pay for them plus postage. They should go First Class in a small box or can go small flat rate PM which includes $50 insurance and tracking for about $6. \Jake in Alabama jhbivusa@... On 4/13/14, rh@... <rh@...> wrote: > I have a fine looking JE 2-8-2 that I am working on which is all original > except for the brass details that have been added. It's also a nice runner, > however it does have one problem that I would like to correct and that is > that the middle two sets of drivers are flanged which causes it to derail on > tight radius curves. I have seen photos of this loco with both blind drivers > and flanged so I am wondering if JE made this loco both ways? At any rate, I > guess I need to find two sets of blind drivers so that it will run properly > without derailing. > Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22548	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: John English 2-8-2 Question

Hi All, I measured the drivers for the original JE 2-8-2 dsrivers and come up with 0.708" for the flanged driver and 0.707" on the blind drivers. Jake in Alabama On 4/13/14, rh@... <rh@...> wrote: > I have a fine looking JE 2-8-2 that I am working on which is all original > except for the brass details that have been added. It's also a nice runner, > however it does have one problem that I would like to correct and that is > that the middle two sets of drivers are flanged which causes it to derail on > tight radius curves. I have seen photos of this loco with both blind drivers > and flanged so I am wondering if JE made this loco both ways? At any rate, I > guess I need to find two sets of blind drivers so that it will run properly > without derailing. > Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22549	From: rcjge	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

David, just read your PS missed it the first time! That is DAMN funny! Thanks for that. :P -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22550	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: Need Help With Parts ID

Hi Tod, Always enjoy these ID challenges as I usually learn something new! _____ First, the tender appears to match either: A) those imported from Japan by Ken Kidder as part of their Plantation Locomotive series in the early 1960s. They will were in both HO and HOn3 gauge. Not sure, but check to see if HOSeeker has any literature. B) or a very similar brass locomotive tender imported with a locomotive by a company known as ATT – American Train & Track later in the 1960s or very early 1970s. _____ I have absolutely no idea about that diesel locomotive frame maybe one of the later plastic body shark noses, otherwise maybe European. _____ The steam locomotive chassis is intriguing as it has adjustable brushes on that pancake or sidewinder motor. I have two locomotives with that style motor, both imported into the United States circa 1949–1950. Both are in that mix of British 00 scale bodies operating on HO scale track. _____ The first is a Trix Twin PRR A-5 0-4-0 switcher, the second is a Rivarossi B&O O--4-0 docksider, much larger and a bit "clunkier" than the later generation of Docksider's which resembled Varney's. The reason I mentioned them is because in an interview with Allesandro Rossi (which appeared online) he remarked that he was impressed with the Trix Twin motor and copied it for his earliest model. _____ The solid drivers, painted red, as well as the coil at the back of the chassis – a reversing coil – would point me to European firm as well.So I would begin checking the Trix Twin collectors organization website and then on to the many other European firms! _____ That's the best I can do for now, and hopefully something I mentioned will trigger a connection in someone else's mind. I will keep working on it as well and see what I can come up with in the next day or so. Jay

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22551	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

I think the neoprene diaphragms would be MHP (Model Hobby Products). I have a bunch of them that are still good. They had metal striker plates that held shut by tabs on the end. Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?   I had a set of these back then.  I added lighting of the cab, headlight, class lights and number boards, glazing and handrails.  Walthers had paper diaphragms and someone else made neoprene diaphragms were available that looked very good ( I do nor remember the name of those at the moment).  I used the neoprene version.  These were the best running diesels that I ever owned until I built a Hobbytown E7...  Then I had two sets od diesels that were excellent runners.  Later I traded all of my diesels for steam. Happy railroading. Don Staton in Va. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 4/12/2014 1:29 PM, jgpedwards@... wrote:   Hi Jay Looked at those very pretty! I'm gonna have to see if there are any of those Pacific HO detailing kits around... Here's a great shot of a Canadian National F3 (GFA-15A) in Jan 1959. The CNR only bought 4 F3A's and 2 "B"'s. They were all built in May 1948 and were "Phase 3" units. So that's a start. It means lowering the fans.... So I'm thinking improve the rear door; didn't someone have diaphragm kits back then? Railings for sure Better lighting... Again it's about what would someone have done to one of thes back in the late 50's to make them look more "Deluxe" or "Prototypical" if you like... Anyone who knows what was available for detailing these units up to and including 1959 I'd appreciate hearing.... I plan to do a "Multi-drive" Hobbytown/Cary F3 set but done as later units as per orthodox in say the 70's? we'll see. Best, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22552	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 4/13/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

You are correct.  Thank you! Happy railroading... Grace and Peace... Don Staton in VA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 4/13/2014 8:15 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote:   I think the neoprene diaphragms would be MHP (Model Hobby Products). I have a bunch of them that are still good. They had metal striker plates that held shut by tabs on the end. Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: Donald R. Staton <chpln1@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?   I had a set of these back then.  I added lighting of the cab, headlight, class lights and number boards, glazing and handrails.  Walthers had paper diaphragms and someone else made neoprene diaphragms were available that looked very good ( I do nor remember the name of those at the moment).  I used the neoprene version.  These were the best running diesels that I ever owned until I built a Hobbytown E7...  Then I had two sets od diesels that were excellent runners.  Later I traded all of my diesels for steam. Happy railroading. Don Staton in Va. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 4/12/2014 1:29 PM, jgpedwards@... wrote:   Hi Jay Looked at those very pretty! I'm gonna have to see if there are any of those Pacific HO detailing kits around... Here's a great shot of a Canadian National F3 (GFA-15A) in Jan 1959. The CNR only bought 4 F3A's and 2 "B"'s. They were all built in May 1948 and were "Phase 3" units. So that's a start. It means lowering the fans.... So I'm thinking improve the rear door; didn't someone have diaphragm kits back then? Railings for sure Better lighting... Again it's about what would someone have done to one of thes back in the late 50's to make them look more "Deluxe" or "Prototypical" if you like... Anyone who knows what was available for detailing these units up to and including 1959 I'd appreciate hearing.... I plan to do a "Multi-drive" Hobbytown/Cary F3 set but done as later units as per orthodox in say the 70's? we'll see. Best, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22553	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: Need Help With Parts ID

Todd, Although it's not an exact match, take a look at this frame under this misidentified powered "Cambron" F unit that appeared on eBay this morning – eBay item number 111326235478. Interesting similarities - could your frame be mounted under a B – B A unit and powered in the same manner? Food for thought. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22554	From: rcjge	Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

Hey Stephen, would you be willing to part with one of those diaphragms? -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22555	From: mwbauers	Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO

I wonder if I have any of these diaphragms? They are something I'd like to run RTV-rubber dupes of the flexible parts and laser cut versions of the mounting plates. I know it's the only way I could get as many as I might need. I remember an old MR article making the flexible part from a stacked sheet metal mold and artificial worm-lure heat setting Goop. Mike Bauers

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22556	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/14/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO

I just looked up the plastic worm goop. It's $18 for a quart and another $3 for the add-in black coloring. I've worked out a way to mill the two sets of different plates to make the metal mold as well as how to grind the convex and concave edges of the plates. Pour the goop, heat at 325-degrees, cool and use. I'm due to be home for 2.5 weeks starting next Thursday for some surgery. I'll try to make the mold and produce some test rubber diaphragms during that. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Apr 14, 2014, at 4:20 PM, <mwbauers55@...> wrote: I wonder if I have any of these diaphragms? They are something I'd like to run RTV-rubber dupes of the flexible parts and laser cut versions of the mounting plates. I know it's the only way I could get as many as I might need. I remember an old MR article making the flexible part from a stacked sheet metal mold and artificial worm-lure heat setting Goop. Mike Bauers

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22558	From: Brad Smith	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Fw: News

Do you know you are sending this crap out?  You need a malware program. Please remove me from your email list.  Sent from Brad's iPod On Apr 14, 2014, at 11:29 PM, texpearson@... <texpearson@...> wrote:   Hi!       News:  http://stamegna.eu/ek/magazine.php   texpearson@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22559	From: Denis Long	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Resin Casting

Hello Mike B., I have decided to try casting.  I have Silicone for the molds, a can of release agent, and a high strength urethane, fiberglass filament resin. I have watched several videos of casting procedures, but I don’t know that I’m getting the whole picture. I can visualize doing the ‘bottom half’ (it is done in halves, right?).  But, if that’s the case, every casting will be in two pieces, and need to be joined.  As you can tell, I’m way out in left field with this. Or do you push the master deep enough into the uncured silicone so that it makes a three dimensional mold, and then what??? My resin is not a high viscosity type, and incidentally, talks many hours to cure.  Help!   Best of luck with the surgery. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22561	From: rcjge	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

Mike: Good luck on the surgery! Got it coming up next week myself. They're gonna cut open my right shoulder. I lead with it too many times in motorcycle crashes both on and off the race track in my youth! ;) -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22562	From: Brad Smith	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: More Crap From texpearson

Do you realize you are sending this crap out?  A malware program (Malwarebytes) will keep this from happening.  Brad Sent from Brad's iPod On Apr 15, 2014, at 5:03 AM, texpearson@... <texpearson@...> wrote:   Hi!       News:  http://doghunt.ru/yzc/news.php   texpearson@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22563	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question

I have an old MRC dual loco Model V power pack that only works on one cab (one side). I took it apart and tested the bad side and found a bad transistor. The problem is that I lack service info for this item and am unable to figure out what transistor was used in the circuit. I know this is a long shot but would anyone know what transistor this would be? I'm sure I can fix it if I can find a replacement transistor for it.  Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22564	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

Jeff, I've had right shoulder problems too. Came from a bus accident a few years ago. Considering I also got put head first through the windshield (Yes, through the windshield, and it was automotive safety glass), but not even a scrape or bump to my head, I consider myself very lucky. There was something on the windshield called a DriveCam. Allstate insurance uses them too. They are motion activated, stop or start too hard or crash, and G-Force activates it. They said the force I hit the windshield with, was more than enough to potentially kill me. A miracle I was unhurt except for the shoulder pain now. This eternal winter has not been kind to my pain problems. On topic, no, I don't have any spare diaprhagms. In fact, on E and F units, I use MHP OO scale (1:76) diaphragms. They are slightly larger than HO ones and fit locomotives better, I think. All my HO ones are spoken for. If Mike makes copies, I'd be interested in some. Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: "jgpedwards@..." <jgpedwards@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 6:19 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?   Mike: Good luck on the surgery! Got it coming up next week myself. They're gonna cut open my right shoulder. I lead with it too many times in motorcycle crashes both on and off the race track in my youth! ;) -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22565	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: More Crap From texpearson

That, and after scanning your computer, changing your email passwords. Hackers get your password, then use Outlook or similar to send emails through your account. That's why some people are not aware they sent them. Outlook can be configured to not leave much of a trace on your email server. Malwarebytes is a good program. Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: Brad Smith <corlissbs@...> To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 6:16 PM Subject: [vintageHO] More Crap From texpearson   Do you realize you are sending this crap out?  A malware program (Malwarebytes) will keep this from happening.  Brad Sent from Brad's iPod On Apr 15, 2014, at 5:03 AM, texpearson@... <texpearson@...> wrote:   Hi!       News:  http://doghunt.ru/yzc/news.php   texpearson@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22566	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question

On 4/15/2014 8:45 PM, rh@... wrote:   I have an old MRC dual loco Model V power pack that only works on one cab (one side). I took it apart and tested the bad side and found a bad transistor. The problem is that I lack service info for this item and am unable to figure out what transistor was used in the circuit. I know this is a long shot but would anyone know what transistor this would be? I'm sure I can fix it if I can find a replacement transistor for it.  Richard in Vermont Many transistor throttles used a 2N3055 as the main power transistor.   If that's indeed it  I have some spares I'll probably never use.  (I got a dozen on eBay once to build transistor throttles, I'll probably never use more than 4 or 5.) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22567	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

I think if anyone had been offended the moderator would have spoken up. It is more likely that no one had anything to say. Personaly I do not think the fans on a varney F3 look anything like an FT. The grilles could have been better represented but after all these did come out in the late 1940's. Good luck, Robert Sent from my NOOK jgpedwards@... wrote:   What the term Kosher or Orthodox tick everyone off?  Wow compared to my Unimat forum it's like dead air! -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22568	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/15/2014
Subject: Re: More Crap From texpearson

On 4/15/2014 6:16 PM, Brad Smith wrote:   Do you realize you are sending this crap out?  A malware program (Malwarebytes) will keep this from happening.  Brad Sent from Brad's iPod On Apr 15, 2014, at 5:03 AM, texpearson@... <texpearson@...> wrote:   Hi!       News:  http://doghunt.ru/yzc/news.php   texpearson@... I've put the sender on moderation and deleted the offending messages. I would have reacted faster but the "neu" Yahoo format makes moderating very difficult. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22569	From: David J. Starr	Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question

It's likely an NPN power device.  Any replacement transistor that fits mechanically, (has the same case) will probably work just fine.  I'd take the old transistor out, and bring it down to Radio Shack and buy a replacement that looks just like it.  Don't worry that the replacement will have a different number on it.  Transistors have improved over the years.  Any modern device will have specifications better than any 10 year old device, and hence it will work better.  A transistor throttle is not a very demanding application.  Voltage is low, in the 12-20volt range, current is modest, an amp, gain (hfe or beta) no problem.  More is better.  Power handling is defined by the case, bigger cases can dump more heat.  Get a replacement in the same case and the power handling ability will be the same.  Most transistors are NPN types, electrons are the carriers in NPN devices and electrons are more mobile than holes, the carrier in PNP transistors.  PNP devices are only made for few applications that demand an opposite polarity device, like a complimentary push pull output stage.  The Radio Shack replacements will be pretty much all NPN types.   David J. Starr Blog:  http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com On 4/15/2014 9:45 PM, rh@... wrote: I have an old MRC dual loco Model V power pack that only works on one cab (one side). I took it apart and tested the bad side and found a bad transistor. The problem is that I lack service info for this item and am unable to figure out what transistor was used in the circuit. I know this is a long shot but would anyone know what transistor this would be? I'm sure I can fix it if I can find a replacement transistor for it.  Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22570	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/16/2014
Subject: History of Kemtron

Hi All, The online magazine "The O Scale Resource" for May-June 2014, contains an excellent 15 page article on the history of the Kemtron, it's founder Levon Kemalyan, as well as other notables that worked for him such as John Anderson, Harry Parker, Cliff Grant, etc. Entitled "Taking a Look at Some of the History of Kemtron Products Company" was written by Glenn Guerra and begins on page 22. While the article understandably focuses on more aspects of his O Scale products, it's concentration on the individuals and their role in Kemtron is invaluable for us HO Scale historians as well. One page, reproduced from a late 1950s catalog shows photographs and mini–biographies of many of the individuals, (some of which I have never seen photographs of before). It's an attractive magazine to read, and the price is right-free-with no enrollment or subscription- just click on the link or copy and paste in your browser. http://oscale.uberflip.com/t/62954 W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22571	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question

Hi David, Your post is much appreciated. Since posting this item, I was able to solve the transistor mystery and should have done this prior to making the post. By simply looking at the transistors inside the power pack, I was able to see the old part number was TIP121. I also put in a call to MRC hoping to get a schematic for this unit but they said they never give out schematics on any of their products. However, they said to use a TIP140 transistor as a replacement. Because this a different number than the original, I looked up the specs on them both and found that the TIP140 is a much better transistor so I ordered a couple of them from All Electronics and the price each was only one dollar. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22572	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: History of Kemtron

Hi Jay, Thanks for this pointer.  The Kemtron story was very enlightening and entertaining.  I also got a lot out of the article on turning driver centers.  I see that this is number 5 of volume 1.  Is there a home page for this magazine to get the prior issues? Thanks and regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: the_plainsman@... Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:39:20 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] History of Kemtron   Hi All, The online magazine "The O Scale Resource" for May-June 2014, contains an excellent 15 page article on the history of the Kemtron, it's founder Levon Kemalyan, as well as other notables that worked for him such as John Anderson, Harry Parker, Cliff Grant, etc. Entitled "Taking a Look at Some of the History of Kemtron Products Company" was written by Glenn Guerra and begins on page 22. While the article understandably focuses on more aspects of his O Scale products, it's concentration on the individuals and their role in Kemtron is invaluable for us HO Scale historians as well. One page, reproduced from a late 1950s catalog shows photographs and mini–biographies of many of the individuals, (some of which I have never seen photographs of before). It's an attractive magazine to read, and the price is right-free-with no enrollment or subscription- just click on the link or copy and paste in your browser. http://oscale.uberflip.com/t/62954 W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22573	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: History of Kemtron

Not sure, Vic. I received the link to thAt one issue via a post on another Yahoo! Group Site regarding a duffernt article, and was also pleasantly surprised at the magazines quality, so will have to try to find it' home page as well. Jay W From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...>; To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: RE: [vintageHO] History of Kemtron Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 4:42:18 PM   Hi Jay, Thanks for this pointer.  The Kemtron story was very enlightening and entertaining.  I also got a lot out of the article on turning driver centers.  I see that this is number 5 of volume 1.  Is there a home page for this magazine to get the prior issues? Thanks and regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: the_plainsman@... Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:39:20 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] History of Kemtron   Hi All, The online magazine "The O Scale Resource" for May-June 2014, contains an excellent 15 page article on the history of the Kemtron, it's founder Levon Kemalyan, as well as other notables that worked for him such as John Anderson, Harry Parker, Cliff Grant, etc. Entitled "Taking a Look at Some of the History of Kemtron Products Company" was written by Glenn Guerra and begins on page 22. While the article understandably focuses on more aspects of his O Scale products, it's concentration on the individuals and their role in Kemtron is invaluable for us HO Scale historians as well. One page, reproduced from a late 1950s catalog shows photographs and mini–biographies of many of the individuals, (some of which I have never seen photographs of before). It's an attractive magazine to read, and the price is right-free-with no enrollment or subscription- just click on the link or copy and paste in your browser. http://oscale.uberflip.com/t/62954 W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22574	From: Carl Neste	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: History of Kemtron

Link seems to be http://oscaleresource.com/ Carl On 4/17/2014 12:44 PM, Jay Wanczyk wrote:   Not sure, Vic. I received the link to thAt one issue via a post on another Yahoo! Group Site regarding a duffernt article, and was also pleasantly surprised at the magazines quality, so will have to try to find it' home page as well. Jay W From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...>; To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: RE: [vintageHO] History of Kemtron Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 4:42:18 PM   Hi Jay, Thanks for this pointer.  The Kemtron story was very enlightening and entertaining.  I also got a lot out of the article on turning driver centers.  I see that this is number 5 of volume 1.  Is there a home page for this magazine to get the prior issues? Thanks and regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: the_plainsman@... Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:39:20 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] History of Kemtron   Hi All, The online magazine "The O Scale Resource" for May-June 2014, contains an excellent 15 page article on the history of the Kemtron, it's founder Levon Kemalyan, as well as other notables that worked for him such as John Anderson, Harry Parker, Cliff Grant, etc. Entitled "Taking a Look at Some of the History of Kemtron Products Company" was written by Glenn Guerra and begins on page 22. While the article understandably focuses on more aspects of his O Scale products, it's concentration on the individuals and their role in Kemtron is invaluable for us HO Scale historians as well. One page, reproduced from a late 1950s catalog shows photographs and mini–biographies of many of the individuals, (some of which I have never seen photographs of before). It's an attractive magazine to read, and the price is right-free-with no enrollment or subscription- just click on the link or copy and paste in your browser. http://oscale.uberflip.com/t/62954 W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22575	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Kosher Orthodox Varney F3?

I know I've handled them. I'm hoping I have some of them on some 'salvage' cars I got a bit of an age ago. I'm certain I don't have any un-installed set of them.......... other than some of the old Walthers heavyweight types. I 'might' be able to make an oven resistance mold from one of them with a metal powder additive to casting resin. Otherwise it's going to be a mill job from the right thickness of shim stock or plate.. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 15, 2014, at 8:45 PM, Stephen Neubaum wrote: ..................... > On topic, no, I don't have any spare diaprhagms. In fact, on E and F > units, I use MHP OO scale (1:76) diaphragms. They are slightly > larger than HO ones and fit locomotives better, I think. > > All my HO ones are spoken for. If Mike makes copies, I'd be > interested in some. > > Thanks > -Steve Neubaum

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22576	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: History of Kemtron

Thanks very much.  I guess I did not think to google it. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: cmneste@... Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:05:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] History of Kemtron   Link seems to be http://oscaleresource.com/ Carl On 4/17/2014 12:44 PM, Jay Wanczyk wrote:   Not sure, Vic. I received the link to thAt one issue via a post on another Yahoo! Group Site regarding a duffernt article, and was also pleasantly surprised at the magazines quality, so will have to try to find it' home page as well. Jay W From: Victor Bitleris <bitlerisvj@...>; To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: RE: [vintageHO] History of Kemtron Sent: Thu, Apr 17, 2014 4:42:18 PM   Hi Jay, Thanks for this pointer.  The Kemtron story was very enlightening and entertaining.  I also got a lot out of the article on turning driver centers.  I see that this is number 5 of volume 1.  Is there a home page for this magazine to get the prior issues? Thanks and regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: the_plainsman@... Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2014 13:39:20 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] History of Kemtron   Hi All, The online magazine "The O Scale Resource" for May-June 2014, contains an excellent 15 page article on the history of the Kemtron, it's founder Levon Kemalyan, as well as other notables that worked for him such as John Anderson, Harry Parker, Cliff Grant, etc. Entitled "Taking a Look at Some of the History of Kemtron Products Company" was written by Glenn Guerra and begins on page 22. While the article understandably focuses on more aspects of his O Scale products, it's concentration on the individuals and their role in Kemtron is invaluable for us HO Scale historians as well. One page, reproduced from a late 1950s catalog shows photographs and mini–biographies of many of the individuals, (some of which I have never seen photographs of before). It's an attractive magazine to read, and the price is right-free-with no enrollment or subscription- just click on the link or copy and paste in your browser. http://oscale.uberflip.com/t/62954 W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22577	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Resin Casting

You use a RTV safe clay with your master. Check these how-to's ... http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/SlotCarMold.cfm http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/TailLightMoldingNoEquipment.cfm http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/2PieceMold.cfm http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/SquishMold.cfm followed by.. http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/SlotCarCast.cfm And thanks for the good luck wish on the surgery. It's going to be nice to have two eyes again. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 15, 2014, at 5:15 PM, Denis Long wrote: Hello Mike B., I have decided to try casting.  I have Silicone for the molds, a can of release agent, and a high strength urethane, fiberglass filament resin. I have watched several videos of casting procedures, but I don’t know that I’m getting the whole picture. I can visualize doing the ‘bottom half’ (it is done in halves, right?).  But, if that’s the case, every casting will be in two pieces, and need to be joined.  As you can tell, I’m way out in left field with this. Or do you push the master deep enough into the uncured silicone so that it makes a three dimensional mold, and then what??? My resin is not a high viscosity type, and incidentally, talks many hours to cure.  Help!   Best of luck with the surgery. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22578	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Re: Resin Casting

I have purchased clay for this from Michaels at very reasonable prices.  Just make sure you get SULPHUR FREE clay.  It is a bit tricky to make two part molds.  I was lucky the first tries and my castings came out very usable.  But as usual, practice makes better. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: mwbauers55@... Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2014 13:28:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re:Resin Casting   You use a RTV safe clay with your master. Check these how-to's ... http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/SlotCarMold.cfm http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/TailLightMoldingNoEquipment.cfm http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/2PieceMold.cfm http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/SquishMold.cfm followed by.. http://www.alumilite.com/HowTos/SlotCarCast.cfm And thanks for the good luck wish on the surgery. It's going to be nice to have two eyes again. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 15, 2014, at 5:15 PM, Denis Long wrote: Hello Mike B., I have decided to try casting.  I have Silicone for the molds, a can of release agent, and a high strength urethane, fiberglass filament resin. I have watched several videos of casting procedures, but I don’t know that I’m getting the whole picture. I can visualize doing the ‘bottom half’ (it is done in halves, right?).  But, if that’s the case, every casting will be in two pieces, and need to be joined.  As you can tell, I’m way out in left field with this. Or do you push the master deep enough into the uncured silicone so that it makes a three dimensional mold, and then what??? My resin is not a high viscosity type, and incidentally, talks many hours to cure.  Help!   Best of luck with the surgery. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22579	From: kenrobbins39	Date: 4/17/2014
Subject: Resin Casting

Denis, I spent many years earning a living making castings in flexible molds. A basic simple mold will have two halves. These can either be sliced apart from a single block of silicone rubber, that has the master encased inside, or two halves poured separately, again with the  master at the center of the two halves. Alignment of the halves is accomplished by making ridges, valleys, or dimples in one half that fit precisely into the other half. In the case of  the two halves poured separately, you first build clay up around your master to where the parting line will be (imagine a bar of soap floating in water, with half of it under the waterline, the rest above). Next, you make some alignment dimples in the clay. Now apply the release agent and pour the silicone rubber (the first half of the mold). After that's fully cured, flip it over, remove all the clay (but leave the master in place), apply more release agent and pour the second half. Of course, there needs to be a channel (known as a "Gate") leading from the outside of the mold to the cavity left by your master. This can either be added to your master or cut into the mold after both halves are cured. With your master removed from the silicone rubber, you should now have two mating halves which can be clamped together, allowing you to pour your resin down the gate and into the cavity. As an ultra-simple illustration of a two-piece mold product, visualize a lollipop: the stick is the gate and the lollipop is the master with its' parting line running around the outside edge. This has only scratched the surface of this subject, but I hope I've given you a better understanding of how to make a silicone rubber mold. Good Luck. Ken Robbins, Hancock, NH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22580	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage MRC Power Pack Question

Very cool. I have a few old MRC transistorized packs. I’m sure the circuits are similar between them. Will have to keep this ‘TIP’ in mind if one of mine ever fails. These are very nice packs for those that aren’t in DCC.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22581	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Streamlined Varney

Attachments : IMG_20140418_143655.JPG IMG_20140418_143409.JPG Well, its pretty much finished. Except for making it into a 4-6-4 from the yet 4-6-2. Depends if I like the look of the 4 wheel trailing truck when it arrives. So a few weeks ago this was all pretty much just sitting in the box waiting to be built. Nearly all the parts were there, some not, some needed replaced with new. Scratch built the tender to go with the loco and dressed it in a new suit and tie to wear. Just finished the tender stripes this morning. Since Varney never followed a prototype for their model, a road name wasn't used. Stripes and a road number is all I am doing. A nice project I wanted to finish up before summer hit. I made my deadline. ...Gary

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22582	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]

WOW!   Looking real good. Nice job Gary.   The four wheel trailing truck just may look good on that loco. Generally, most 4-6- from 4-6-2 “conversions” look like they were converted from 4-6-2’s by replacing the two wheel truck with a four wheeler. But this one may have enough length to look good.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Mittner Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:52 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]     Well, its pretty much finished. Except for making it into a 4-6-4 from the yet 4-6-2. Depends if I like the look of the 4 wheel trailing truck when it arrives. So a few weeks ago this was all pretty much just sitting in the box waiting to be built. Nearly all the parts were there, some not, some needed replaced with new. Scratch built the tender to go with the loco and dressed it in a new suit and tie to wear. Just finished the tender stripes this morning. Since Varney never followed a prototype for their model, a road name wasn't used. Stripes and a road number is all I am doing. A nice project I wanted to finish up before summer hit. I made my deadline. ...Gary Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Visit Your Group ·         New Photos 5 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22583	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]

Marvelous model...  Exquisite paint job!!! Grace and Peace...  Don Staton in VA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 4/18/2014 2:51 PM, Gary Mittner wrote:   Well, its pretty much finished. Except for making it into a 4-6-4 from the yet 4-6-2. Depends if I like the look of the 4 wheel trailing truck when it arrives. So a few weeks ago this was all pretty much just sitting in the box waiting to be built. Nearly all the parts were there, some not, some needed replaced with new. Scratch built the tender to go with the loco and dressed it in a new suit and tie to wear. Just finished the tender stripes this morning. Since Varney never followed a prototype for their model, a road name wasn't used. Stripes and a road number is all I am doing. A nice project I wanted to finish up before summer hit. I made my deadline. ...Gary

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22584	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

John, thanks. The original Varney streamliner was designed as a Hudson but later they pictured the Pacific as an option. To me the Varney 4 wheel trailing truck looks dainty. Thats why I still may leave it as a 4-6-2. Have to see it person to decide. ...Gary --- Original Message --- From: "John Hagen" <sprinthag@...> Sent: April 18, 2014 6:10 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Streamlined Varney WOW!   Looking real good. Nice job Gary.   The four wheel trailing truck just may look good on that loco. Generally, most 4-6- from 4-6-2 “conversions” look like they were converted from 4-6-2’s by replacing the two wheel truck with a four wheeler. But this one may have enough length to look good.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Mittner Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 1:52 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]     Well, its pretty much finished. Except for making it into a 4-6-4 from the yet 4-6-2. Depends if I like the look of the 4 wheel trailing truck when it arrives. So a few weeks ago this was all pretty much just sitting in the box waiting to be built. Nearly all the parts were there, some not, some needed replaced with new. Scratch built the tender to go with the loco and dressed it in a new suit and tie to wear. Just finished the tender stripes this morning. Since Varney never followed a prototype for their model, a road name wasn't used. Stripes and a road number is all I am doing. A nice project I wanted to finish up before summer hit. I made my deadline. ...Gary Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Visit Your Group ·         New Photos 5 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22585	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Wow Gary, it looks great! And you have certainly achieved your goal of matching the look of those large streamlined tenders typical ofwhat the roads like PRR and NYC where using with their streamlined locomotives. I'm sure it will be an eye-opener for many HO Scale modelers who are unfamiliar with the older Varney line, especially when you tell them how many decades ago this model was introduced! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22586	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]

On 4/18/2014 1:51 PM, Gary Mittner wrote:   Well, its pretty much finished. Except for making it into a 4-6-4 from the yet 4-6-2. Depends if I like the look of the 4 wheel trailing truck when it arrives. So a few weeks ago this was all pretty much just sitting in the box waiting to be built. Nearly all the parts were there, some not, some needed replaced with new. Scratch built the tender to go with the loco and dressed it in a new suit and tie to wear. Just finished the tender stripes this morning. Since Varney never followed a prototype for their model, a road name wasn't used. Stripes and a road number is all I am doing. A nice project I wanted to finish up before summer hit. I made my deadline. ...Gary Looks fabulous. Do you have a train of the two tone gray celluloid streamliners to go behind it? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22587	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Attachments : IMG_20140417_170606.JPG IMG_20140417_170442.JPG Thanks W Jay. Believe it or not this is the only Varney loco I ever owned, and I've only owned it about 2 years when someone offered it up for sale. It was either here or another list. I passed on one about 8 years ago, a complete one with a brass/bronze tender and been on the look out for one ever since. I kinda like streamlined Pacific's, especially the PRR Pacifics. Glad they had them cause that's the road I model. I know these pics I included here in this note are not vintage but sneaking them in anyway. Here are 2 of my brass PRR streamlined K4's.  ....Gary --- Original Message --- From: the_plainsman@... Sent: April 18, 2014 6:27 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Streamlined Varney Wow Gary, it looks great! And you have certainly achieved your goal of matching the look of those large streamlined tenders typical ofwhat the roads like PRR and NYC where using with their streamlined locomotives. I'm sure it will be an eye-opener for many HO Scale modelers who are unfamiliar with the older Varney line, especially when you tell them how many decades ago this model was introduced! W. Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22588	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

No Don, nothing to go behind it. Will eventually see what's out there that I can pull with the loco. ...Gary --- Original Message --- From: "Don Dellmann" <don.dellmann@...> Sent: April 18, 2014 6:35 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Streamlined Varney On 4/18/2014 1:51 PM, Gary Mittner wrote:   Well, its pretty much finished. Except for making it into a 4-6-4 from the yet 4-6-2. Depends if I like the look of the 4 wheel trailing truck when it arrives. So a few weeks ago this was all pretty much just sitting in the box waiting to be built. Nearly all the parts were there, some not, some needed replaced with new. Scratch built the tender to go with the loco and dressed it in a new suit and tie to wear. Just finished the tender stripes this morning. Since Varney never followed a prototype for their model, a road name wasn't used. Stripes and a road number is all I am doing. A nice project I wanted to finish up before summer hit. I made my deadline. ...Gary Looks fabulous. Do you have a train of the two tone gray celluloid streamliners to go behind it? Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22589	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]

Gary,   I generally don’t think too much of streamlined steam. That sleek appearance and flashy colors looks great on the early diesels but not on steam.   Of course I have exceptions. The Milwaukee “A’s” are just terrific looking locos, probably my favorite streamlined steamers. Funny but I have little love for the Milwaukee streamlined Baltic’s, too overdone. The same goes for the “beautiful” SP red, orange and ugly streamliners. Not too fond of them as diesels either. That said’ the war years 4-8-4’s in basic black with less shrouding look really good.   That Varney loco, similar to some NYC and UP locos looks pretty decent. The same railroads had some “bathtub” shrouded steamers that should, IMHO, be restricted to Flash Gordon comic books.   A devout B&O steam and early diesel covered wagon lover I did think much of their Cincinnatian streamliners but did like the Lord and Lady Baltimore’s.   Santa Fe, CNW, N&W, Pennsylvania and many others streamliners looked much worse than their respective, non-streamlined brethren. Well, I do kind of like the Pennsy T-1 4-4-4-4’s and the Reading Crusader, albeit in the case of the Crusader it isn’t the loco as much as the entire train that I like.   We all have our likes and dislikes so if what I think are not the beauties that many consider them to be it is due to my high level of sophistication (or maybe my higher level of stubbornness, take your pick).   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Mittner Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 5:37 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]     Thanks W Jay. Believe it or not this is the only Varney loco I ever owned, and I've only owned it about 2 years when someone offered it up for sale. It was either here or another list. I passed on one about 8 years ago, a complete one with a brass/bronze tender and been on the look out for one ever since. I kinda like streamlined Pacific's, especially the PRR Pacifics. Glad they had them cause that's the road I model. I know these pics I included here in this note are not vintage but sneaking them in anyway. Here are 2 of my brass PRR streamlined K4's.  ....Gary Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (7) Visit Your Group ·         New Photos 7 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22590	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney [2 Attachments]

Hi John H., I just enjoyed reading your review of the streamlined steam locomotives and agree that some prototypes are aesthetically pleasing while others considerably less so. One prototype not mentioned that I also like was the budget streamlining job that designer Otto Kuhler did for the NYO&W Mountaineer. On the vintage HO side, I don't have any yet and like many, the Penn Line Crusader is high on my list, ever since I saw the parts drawings of it in one of the early Bowser reference manuals. You mentioned the rest of the train and I always wanted to match it with the Kasiner/Herkimer five car consist or possibly one of those extruded aluminum sets that supposedly Mantua produced to match the Ot in the early 1950s. But the Varney streamlined Pacific and Penn Line T1 are also in my list as well, when time and funds permit. You also mentioned the B&O Lord Baltimore, which was a handsome light Pacific that was styled more along the lines of a modern British engine of the mid 30s. I was lucky enough to find an imported brass Lord Baltimore superstructure/boiler and tender in a train show junkbox number of years ago. I'm not sure who imported them, likely Custom Brass in the 1970s, (which is a little outside our vintage HO scope with here). The price was certainly right for the red primer drenched assemblies at four dollars a piece. It actually took me a while to figure out exactly what I had purchased and I was pleased as the prototype briefly operated into Jersey City, fitting into my general modeling scope. I will try to post some photographs after the holiday weekend so some here who may be unfamiliar with Lord Baltimore can see it. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22591	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Those two look good, Gary. While I'm familiar with the prototype for the sleeker locomotive in the first photo on the left, I am on your familiar with the prototype for the second which preserves more of character of the original locomotive. Your newly complete Varney streamlined pacific will look right at home next to these two in the terminal! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22592	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/18/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Jay,   Thank you for your response. We seem to share a certain level of interest in the same style of locos.   I must point out that the Lord Baltimore was a 4-6-4, one of George Emerson’s experiments with water tube boilers. With 84’ drivers it was fast …. provided it could get the train started as it had but 34,000 lbs tractive effort, not much by Hudson standards.   The 4-4-4 Lady Baltimore, built on the same basic design as the Lord with but four drivers and less weight was very slippery indeed. Both were used with special, light weight trains, Lord’s being the original Royal blue IIRC. Both were also shipped off to the Alton when relatively new only to be returned to the B&O when the Alton was no longer under B&O control. Not any sort of real success as main line steamers for a line with the profile of a B&O but were very pleasing to the eye. Not a shrouded streamlined design as was common in the US they were styled after British steam which generally had very clean lines with little in the way of boiler mounted appliances to detract from their smote skins. They were a very well done combination of the British uncluttered superstructure and light, racy looking running gear with the imposing look of size and power as was common on the US lines with their much larger loading gauge.   I watch eBay for the brass versions but when they do show up from time to time the price always soon goes well beyond my reach.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of the_plainsman@... Sent: Friday, April 18, 2014 8:13 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Streamlined Varney     Hi John H., I just enjoyed reading your review of the streamlined steam locomotives and agree that some prototypes are aesthetically pleasing while others considerably less so. One prototype not mentioned that I also like was the budget streamlining job that designer Otto Kuhler did for the NYO&W Mountaineer. On the vintage HO side, I don't have any yet and like many, the Penn Line Crusader is high on my list, ever since I saw the parts drawings of it in one of the early Bowser reference manuals. You mentioned the rest of the train and I always wanted to match it with the Kasiner/Herkimer five car consist or possibly one of those extruded aluminum sets that supposedly Mantua produced to match the Ot in the early 1950s. But the Varney streamlined Pacific and Penn Line T1 are also in my list as well, when time and funds permit. You also mentioned the B&O Lord Baltimore, which was a handsome light Pacific that was styled more along the lines of a modern British engine of the mid 30s. I was lucky enough to find an imported brass Lord Baltimore superstructure/boiler and tender in a train show junkbox number of years ago. I'm not sure who imported them, likely Custom Brass in the 1970s, (which is a little outside our vintage HO scope with here). The price was certainly right for the red primer drenched assemblies at four dollars a piece. It actually took me a while to figure out exactly what I had purchased and I was pleased as the prototype briefly operated into Jersey City, fitting into my general modeling scope. I will try to post some photographs after the holiday weekend so some here who may be unfamiliar with Lord Baltimore can see it. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22593	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers

 --D, I have seen 3 different coupler systems used on Marx HO equipment: 1. the standard NMRA coupler that swiveled with the trucks, but were not permanently attached to them. 2. the large non working plastic knuckle coupler that was installed on their battery operated sets. 3. a large hook type coupler that I had only seen on a few cars. Photos and info can be found at http://www.marx-trains.com/ho-trains/notes/couplers/index.html Steve Winter http://www.prrh.org -- Phillipsburg Railroad Historians http://www.marx-trains.com -- Marx HO web http://nasme.tripod.com -- Nazareth Area Society Of Model Engineers ----- Original Message ----- From: dnhelber@... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 9:18 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Mystery Vintage Couplers   I have added a PHOTOS folder named Couplers - Old and Odd with some of my collected images of vintage and unusual American HO couplers.  Can anyone identify the mystery couplers in the first four photos? It's possible they're homemade (the car they're on is) and home designed. If so, it's a pretty good job. Main drawback is the length of the thick shaft which may have forced the designer to move the trucks toward the center of the car.  They appear to work by having a pivoting wire closure or hook ride over a horizontal spike to couple, and get pivoted upward by a track-ramp to release. The system is similar to the Megow coupler, but uses a screw as the pivot axis instead of a horizontal hole. Any info on these would be welcome. Thanks. The guy who posted these photos on the Yahoo MRCouplers group got no replies - but the group is largely inactive, so that's not surprising.  -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22594	From: david_helber	Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers

Steve, I don't recall seeing those big plastic loops on Marx cars. The loops are reminiscent of Hornby couplers, a bit. I hope you won't mind; I added your photos to the Couplers photo folder. If they're very unusual in the US, I wonder if they might have been Hong Kong Marx cars produced for non-USA markets. Or maybe just an economy line for the US that didn't sell very well, and had only one production run. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22595	From: Charlie	Date: 4/20/2014
Subject: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

Hi   Somewhere in the back of my hazy memory I remember seeing in a bound Model Railroader volume an advertisement for a rail car that was in 2 parts not sure if it was articulated or just coupled.  Had a name like cow/calf (the locos).   Could be it was Athearn ?   Any ideas as to what it was ?   Thanks   Charlie harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22596	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

Attachments : image.jpg Hi Charlie H., I believe that the model you remember is the Walthers "Shuttle Jack" which was a two unit articulated gas electric locomotive and baggage car that was based upon a Santa Fe prototype. It was manufactured by Walthers during the 1950's and possibly into the very early 1960s. I would have to pull out my catalogs for the exact years. I do not have one in my collection, but found the above photo in the "hoseeker" photo album. If you go to our group's main page and search the name "Shuttle Jack" you will find a number of discussions and more information on it among our group. Occasionally, one does show up on eBay, but much less often than the C & & W gas electric. W. Jay W. From: Charlie <railroads@...>; To: VintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: [vintageHO] 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece Sent: Mon, Apr 21, 2014 6:26:41 AM   Hi   Somewhere in the back of my hazy memory I remember seeing in a bound Model Railroader volume an advertisement for a rail car that was in 2 parts not sure if it was articulated or just coupled.  Had a name like cow/calf (the locos).   Could be it was Athearn ?   Any ideas as to what it was ?   Thanks   Charlie harris

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22597	From: dwaite2000	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car

Good Morning all. I'm looking for a diagram/plans for the Red Ball K-52 Water Car. My one catalogue doesn't show the car. Got a box of parts that I'd like to make into a complete model. I could wing it but some directions would help. Thanks, Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22598	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car

Hi Dick, This is the only Red Ball water car in Hoseeker. http://www.hoseeker.net/redball/redballwatercar.jpg Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: acace@... Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:40:58 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car   Good Morning all. I'm looking for a diagram/plans for the Red Ball K-52 Water Car. My one catalogue doesn't show the car. Got a box of parts that I'd like to make into a complete model. I could wing it but some directions would help. Thanks, Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22599	From: david_helber	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

Attachments : Screen shot 2014-04-04 at 2.01.42 PM.png It could have been Athearn - Rail Diesel Cars RDC-1 + RDC-3 in silver or the memorable (if fanciful) NH Red-White-Black. I had the catalog, and wanted the NH set very badly when I was 13.  -- D

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22600	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

That's right, Dave H. I have always tended to think of the Athearn RDC's as single units because only one of those red white and black New Haven units, the combine, was the first motive power I ever purchased on my own, about 45 years ago! (My Hustler, Penn Line Consolidation and Penn Line GG-1 were all gifts.) At a discounted six dollars and change at Highway Hobby in Ramsey, NJ, the RDC exceeded my normal monthly budget, but likely I had a small cash birthday gift from a distant relative in hand. I finally was able to match it with its intended mate a year or so ago. Still fun to have and run. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22601	From: Richard White	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car

Attachments : Hi Dick- Is this what you need? Note that I have a photo of my water car in Photos, under "Richard's Red Ball Cars." Regards- Richard White       To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com From: bitlerisvj@... Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 10:07:15 -0400 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car   Hi Dick, This is the only Red Ball water car in Hoseeker. http://www.hoseeker.net/redball/redballwatercar.jpg Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: acace@... Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:40:58 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car   Good Morning all. I'm looking for a diagram/plans for the Red Ball K-52 Water Car. My one catalogue doesn't show the car. Got a box of parts that I'd like to make into a complete model. I could wing it but some directions would help. Thanks, Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22602	From: Ray Marinaccio	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Vintage Couplers

Attachments : TN batterry operated set.jpg TN batterry operated set c.jpg TN batterry operated set a.jpg I have the locomotive and cars from a Battery operated set made in Hong Kong.  They do not have the Marx logo on the bottoms as some of the Marx cars I have that are otherwise identical.  Is it may be possible that Marx had an arrangement or affiliation with T.N ? On Sunday, April 20, 2014 6:30 PM, "dnhelber@..." <dnhelber@...> wrote: Steve, I don't recall seeing those big plastic loops on Marx cars. The loops are reminiscent of Hornby couplers, a bit. I hope you won't mind; I added your photos to the Couplers photo folder. If they're very unusual in the US, I wonder if they might have been Hong Kong Marx cars produced for non-USA markets. Or maybe just an economy line for the US that didn't sell very well, and had only one production run. -- D

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22603	From: trainliker	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car

Attachments : Why not send what you have to hoseeker?  I think that site keeps growing due to many contributions of such things.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard White To: Jim Heckard Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 9:16 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car   Hi Dick- Is this what you need? Note that I have a photo of my water car in Photos, under "Richard's Red Ball Cars." Regards- Richard White       To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com From: bitlerisvj@... Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 10:07:15 -0400 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car   Hi Dick, This is the only Red Ball water car in Hoseeker. http://www.hoseeker.net/redball/redballwatercar.jpg Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: acace@... Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 09:40:58 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car   Good Morning all. I'm looking for a diagram/plans for the Red Ball K-52 Water Car. My one catalogue doesn't show the car. Got a box of parts that I'd like to make into a complete model. I could wing it but some directions would help. Thanks, Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22604	From: dwaite2000	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car

All, Many thanks to all that replied. I've got enough info now to continue. Thanks again, Dick Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22605	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car

Attachments : image-22605.jpg Hi Dick W., Vic B., and All, Perhaps some of you wondered about the different numbering for what appears to be the same Red Ball model maintenance of Way water tank on a flatcar. If not, here's some additional background on the model anyway! _____________________________________ The instructions that Vic provided a copy of indicates kit no. 3, yet Dick has it as K – 52. Both are correct in that the water tank car was originally introduced by M. Dale Newton as a special Red Ball kit along with two other completely new Maintenance of Way car models, both of them based upon converted boxcars, K-79 a bunk car and K-72 a kitchen car. If purchased together all three kits came in a large thin flat box. There exists a wonderful illustrated holiday advertising sheet which includes John Anderson's artwork of Red Ball regular Hostler Ginchell and Santa Claus admiring the new models in the workshop. _____________________________________ I imagine the models proved popular, so Newton integrated them into his regular line, first appearing in catalog eight, but also in some of his early 1950s newsletters, I believe. The water tank on a flatcar kit could be purchased with embossed tank car wrappers in a choice of three colors: black, gray, or reddish orange, with appropriate contrasting lettering _____________________________________ To me, the standout feature of the Bunk and Cook's cars where the oversized house type screen windows applied to some, but not all windows. In today's parlance, house windows with screens recycled into the M. Of W. cars. Newton did not mention a prototype, but they certainly appear to be something cobbled up in a prototype railroad or logging road's shop. The screen windows are actually solid metal castings with a wonderful textured appearance. ____________________________________ Attached is an illustration from Red Ball catalog no. 8, from HOSeeker.org, which shows all three of the models mentioned, as part of the regular line. W.Jay W. From: acace@... <acace@...>; To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: Re: [vintageHO] ReHelp with Red Ball Water Car Sent: Mon, Apr 21, 2014 5:19:49 PM   All, Many thanks to all that replied. I've got enough info now to continue. Thanks again, Dick Waite

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22606	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: hook and loop couplers

Those last trucks and couplers look very similar to vintage Triang Transcontinental series of some 50 or more years back, both the push thro steel axles and that big moulded loop, although the hook is a slight different style. Maybe the Marx ones were made to work with the Triang or vice versa? RogerW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22607	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

Charlie,   On the prototype railroads, a switcher (having a cab) is designated as a cow and its helper unit (most often not having a cab)  is designated as a calf -- or "slug."  Athearn offered their EMD SW-1500 Cow and Calf Switchers, the models were, in Undecorated (Unpainted Black Shell);  4001 Powered Cow, 4021 Powered Calf, 4051 Dummy Cow and 4071 Dummy Calf.  The came lettered in CB&Q (4002, 4022, 4052 and 4072), IC (4003, 4023, 4053 and 4073), SOU (4004, 4024, 4054 and 4074), ATSF (4005, 4025, 4055 and 4075), SP (4006, 4026, 4056 and 4076), UP (4007,4027, 4057 and 4077), PRR (4008, 4028, 4058 and 4078) and B&O (4009, 4029, 4059 and 4079).  While these are not RailCars, these may be what you're remembering from Athearn as Cow & Calf, as they certainly did produce them -- and they would be operated coupled as a set.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 4/21/2014 1:33:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, railroads@... writes:   Hi   Somewhere in the back of my hazy memory I remember seeing in a bound Model Railroader volume an advertisement for a rail car that was in 2 parts not sure if it was articulated or just coupled.  Had a name like cow/calf (the locos).   Could be it was Athearn ?   Any ideas as to what it was ?   Thanks   Charlie harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22608	From: dwaite2000	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Varney residue question

You've all been so helpful about my Red Ball Water Car, I'll chance another question. I've got a fare number of Varney metal box cars and reefers to build. I note that the red plastic bits have acquired a white coating through the years. Seems to come off easily and not leave any damage. Any idea what causes the problem and a recommended way to clean them up? Thanks again, Dicki Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22609	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

Charlie and others,   A “calf” is a rather different animal than a “slug”. Most calf’s other than switchers were designated as “B” units. In either case they were cab less “A” units or “cow” in switcher parlance. These cab less units did have their own prime movers (diesel engines) and were nearly mechanically identical to the Cows.   A slug was a diesel with its prime mover  and generator removed. Since it had no method of powering itself it used the excess electrical power from its mother unit to run its traction motors. This was relatively successful on yard units but less so on so-called “road slugs” as the excess electrical power was only available at low speeds. Diesels have more than enough mechanical power (torque from its prime mover) to provide all the electrical power it needs at low speeds but as the road speed rises  more mechanical power is required to keep up with  the increased electrical demands. Slugs generally had much simplified car bodies and usually reduced car body heights due to the lack of mechanical components above the frame. Those components were replaced by dead weight to make up for the loss of the mechanical components and to return the amount of tractive effort lost when those items were removed.   The amount of horsepower new locos putout today is used for the higher speeds that are being attained using less units. Where it took four units years ago to move a decent sized train it now takes two to move a heavier train. Part of the ability to use this excess power is due to the improved traction given to days better truck, wheel, suspension design and the computerized control systems that in place.   That all said I have never seen a commercially available “cow” (or whatever) and slug from any model train manufacturer so it is quite likely you are speaking of an Athearn cow and Calf although there was a brass cow and cold set imported by, IIRC, Trains Inc. back in the 60’s – 70’s.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 5:08 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece     Charlie,   On the prototype railroads, a switcher (having a cab) is designated as a cow and its helper unit (most often not having a cab)  is designated as a calf -- or "slug."  Athearn offered their EMD SW-1500 Cow and Calf Switchers, the models were, in Undecorated (Unpainted Black Shell);  4001 Powered Cow, 4021 Powered Calf, 4051 Dummy Cow and 4071 Dummy Calf.  The came lettered in CB&Q (4002, 4022, 4052 and 4072), IC (4003, 4023, 4053 and 4073), SOU (4004, 4024, 4054 and 4074), ATSF (4005, 4025, 4055 and 4075), SP (4006, 4026, 4056 and 4076), UP (4007,4027, 4057 and 4077), PRR (4008, 4028, 4058 and 4078) and B&O (4009, 4029, 4059 and 4079).  While these are not RailCars, these may be what you're remembering from Athearn as Cow & Calf, as they certainly did produce them -- and they would be operated coupled as a set.   Ray Wetzel     Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5) Visit Your Group ·         New Photos 3 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22610	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Varney residue question

I think that's the same stuff that accumulates on old American Flyer trains, particularly the old link couplers. A hair dryer usually can get it off. From what I have read, it is harmless, and a remanent of the mold release agent, or something like that. Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: "acace@..." <acace@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:00 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Varney residue question   You've all been so helpful about my Red Ball Water Car, I'll chance another question. I've got a fare number of Varney metal box cars and reefers to build. I note that the red plastic bits have acquired a white coating through the years. Seems to come off easily and not leave any damage. Any idea what causes the problem and a recommended way to clean them up? Thanks again, Dicki Waite

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22611	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

I think you're thinking of the "Bride and Groom" which was a "married pair" gas electric coach and trailer coach.  I don't think it was Walthers but one of the smaller mfgrs (Paul Moore?, Pennsylvania Scale Models?).  I seem to remember it having Strathmore sides.  I don't think it lasted after about 1960, although one still ocasionally finds an old shop that still has treasure like that on it's shelves.         Fred Holladay   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: railroads@... Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 18:26:41 +1200 Subject: [vintageHO] 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece   Hi   Somewhere in the back of my hazy memory I remember seeing in a bound Model Railroader volume an advertisement for a rail car that was in 2 parts not sure if it was articulated or just coupled.  Had a name like cow/calf (the locos).   Could be it was Athearn ?   Any ideas as to what it was ?   Thanks   Charlie harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22612	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Varney residue question

I’m pretty confident that it is a mold release product. Stuffs been around since Varney first started injection molded plastic cars back in the early 50’s. We had a black Varney hopper that showed it off really well on the layout before we moved to Green Bay in the fall of 1950 IIRC.   I never really tried to remove it but it never caused any problems in the 50 – 60 years we owned it. Kida like factory weathering and Gordon never even knew it.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Neubaum Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:12 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Varney residue question     I think that's the same stuff that accumulates on old American Flyer trains, particularly the old link couplers. A hair dryer usually can get it off. From what I have read, it is harmless, and a remanent of the mold release agent, or something like that. Thanks -Steve Neubaum

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22613	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

The Bride and Groom was a Pittman product.   I see them on eBay at times and am tempted to buy a set if it were to be reasonable enough for a cheapskate like me. There is one there now but it has a NWSL PDT power truck and the starting price is way too high. Extra cost for the PDT that in today’s world is actually a detriment.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Holladay Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 4:48 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece             I think you're thinking of the "Bride and Groom" which was a "married pair" gas electric coach and trailer coach.  I don't think it was Walthers but one of the smaller mfgrs (Paul Moore?, Pennsylvania Scale Models?).  I seem to remember it having Strathmore sides.  I don't think it lasted after about 1960, although one still ocasionally finds an old shop that still has treasure like that on it's shelves.         Fred Holladay   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: railroads@... Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 18:26:41 +1200 Subject: [vintageHO] 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece   Hi   Somewhere in the back of my hazy memory I remember seeing in a bound Model Railroader volume an advertisement for a rail car that was in 2 parts not sure if it was articulated or just coupled.  Had a name like cow/calf (the locos).   Could be it was Athearn ?   Any ideas as to what it was ?   Thanks   Charlie harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22614	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

Before anyone asks the item number is 131168810633 and the asking price is $87.99.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hagen Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 6:34 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece     The Bride and Groom was a Pittman product.   I see them on eBay at times and am tempted to buy a set if it were to be reasonable enough for a cheapskate like me. There is one there now but it has a NWSL PDT power truck and the starting price is way too high. Extra cost for the PDT that in today’s world is actually a detriment.   John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22615	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

John,   I did specifically say that Athearn produced a Cow & Calf.  I never said that Athearn ever produced a slug.  I referred to a slug only in the context of the prototype.  For that matter, I don't think any vintage H0 manufacturer produced a slug, although it may have been made in imported brass.  What I meant was that a calf and a slug are very similar in appearance (and they are used for the same purpose in switching).  Some modelers used Varney's NW2 and modified its hood's open end, while keeping from installing the cab -- as a close version of a calf.   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 4/21/2014 7:10:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sprinthag@... writes:   Charlie and others, A “calf” is a rather different animal than a “slug”. Most calf’s other than switchers were designated as “B” units. In either case they were cab less “A” units or “cow” in switcher parlance. These cab less units did have their own prime movers (diesel engines) and were nearly mechanically identical to the Cows. A slug was a diesel with its prime mover  and generator removed. Since it had no method of powering itself it used the excess electrical power from its mother unit to run its traction motors. This was relatively successful on yard units but less so on so-called “road slugs” as the excess electrical power was only available at low speeds. Diesels have more than enough mechanical power (torque from its prime mover) to provide all the electrical power it needs at low speeds but as the road speed rises  more mechanical power is required to keep up with  the increased electrical demands. Slugs generally had much simplified car bodies and usually reduced car body heights due to the lack of mechanical components above the frame. Those components were replaced by dead weight to make up for the loss of the mechanical components and to return the amount of tractive effort lost when those items were removed. The amount of horsepower new locos putout today is used for the higher speeds that are being attained using less units. Where it took four units years ago to move a decent sized train it now takes two to move a heavier train. Part of the ability to use this excess power is due to the improved traction given to days better truck, wheel, suspension design and the computerized control systems that in place. That all said I have never seen a commercially available “cow” (or whatever) and slug from any model train manufacturer so it is quite likely you are speaking of an Athearn cow and Calf although there was a brass cow and cold set imported by, IIRC, Trains Inc. back in the 60’s – 70’s. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of eriepacific@... Sent: Monday, April 21, 2014 5:08 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece   Charlie, On the prototype railroads, a switcher (having a cab) is designated as a cow and its helper unit (most often not having a cab)  is designated as a calf -- or "slug."  Athearn offered their EMD SW-1500 Cow and Calf Switchers, the models were, in Undecorated (Unpainted Black Shell);  4001 Powered Cow, 4021 Powered Calf, 4051 Dummy Cow and 4071 Dummy Calf.  The came lettered in CB&Q (4002, 4022, 4052 and 4072), IC (4003, 4023, 4053 and 4073), SOU (4004, 4024, 4054 and 4074), ATSF (4005, 4025, 4055 and 4075), SP (4006, 4026, 4056 and 4076), UP (4007,4027, 4057 and 4077), PRR (4008, 4028, 4058 and 4078) and B&O (4009, 4029, 4059 and 4079).  While these are not RailCars, these may be what you're remembering from Athearn as Cow & Calf, as they certainly did produce them -- and they would be operated coupled as a set. Ray Wetzel Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5) Visit Your Group ·         New Photos 3 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22616	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

On 4/21/2014 4:48 PM, Fred Holladay wrote:           I think you're thinking of the "Bride and Groom" which was a "married pair" gas electric coach and trailer coach.  I don't think it was Walthers but one of the smaller mfgrs (Paul Moore?, Pennsylvania Scale Models?).  I seem to remember it having Strathmore sides.  I don't think it lasted after about 1960, although one still ocasionally finds an old shop that still has treasure like that on it's shelves.         Fred Holladay   The "Bride & Groom" were marketed by the Pittman Motor people under their own name. I'll see if I can find an ad to scan. In the meantime I DID find this    http://www.ebay.com/itm/PITTMAN-HO-SCALE-600-PENNSYLVANIA-RAILROAD-BRIDE-GROOM-MP-50-2-CAR-SET-/400681935274?nma=true&si=9yNeqZfF9DVfKzQaP0w8KiJDRCU%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 First time I actually knew they had a prototype. The Walthers "Shuttlejack" was actually a Santa Fe M-190 articulated gas-electric (or reasonable facsimile thereof) Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22617	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/21/2014
Subject: Re: Varney residue question

On 4/21/2014 6:00 PM, acace@... wrote:   You've all been so helpful about my Red Ball Water Car, I'll chance another question. I've got a fare number of Varney metal box cars and reefers to build. I note that the red plastic bits have acquired a white coating through the years. Seems to come off easily and not leave any damage. Any idea what causes the problem and a recommended way to clean them up? Thanks again, Dicki Waite I've seen it quite often myself, I THINK (and I'm not a metallurgist) it's zinc oxide Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22618	From: Charlie	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: 1950-60s RailCar 2 piece

Hi Guys     Wow, so much info that came out.  Much appreciated.   The one I originally was thinking of was the Shuttle Jack.   I did not realise it was a version of M390.   Thnaks all for the great info     Charles Harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22619	From: docdenny34	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

I have been following this thread and the photos with much interest and admiration. Gary has bestowed an extraordinary sense of good design, good taste, fine proportionality and artistry on this model; and to boot, exercised fine modeling skills in doing so.  I love the paint scheme, and appreciate very much the sentiment of simply numbering the locomotive sans any lettering. Congratulations! This moved me to go digging into my way-back collection and bring into the light my own quite fanciful modeling version of the very same Varney streamlined locomotive that I did in 1959 while I was still in medical school.  I am now 80 and retired!   As soon as I can figure out how to do it, I will upload photos. I did make my locomotive into a 4-6-4.  The main chassis parts were from a Penn Line K4 4-6-2, and the drivers (80") were from a Penn Line T-1 4-4-4-4. The lead truck was also from a Penn Line T-1.  All of these parts were purchased directly from Penn Line. The sprung investment cast brass trailing truck is Budd  (from Kemtron, as are most of the other applied details).  The skirts are fabricated from Strathmore laminated paper, backed with wood strips. A hidden wood  piece extends the pilot down to within an appropriate distance from the rail heads. The decals are Walthers, when Walthers was THE major decal supplier.  The tender is from a Penn Line T-1.  Because the tender body was too narrow, it had to be significantly widened to match the Varney (which, at 10'6" is overside). This locomotive spent 5 years span of successfully, smoothly, and effortlessly as a popular regular pulling a 14 car train of fancifully-painted Sampson, Herkimer, and American Beauty cars at high speed around the 70" radius curves of the West Bay Club layout in Menlo Park, CA.  That the locomotive alone weighed (weighs) 2.150 lb. ensured that no train gave it any trouble.  I was surely naive in my then modeling choices, but in the Milwaukee steam passenger realm at the time, the only models that one could lay their hands on were the Walthers Taylor F-6 4-6-4 of 1936-c. 39, or the Rivarossi 4-4-2. (the former was worthy, the latter not so much). This locomotive has not been on the track, much less run since 1964, but....h-mmm.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22620	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Time to take that grand dame out for a run, don’t you think?   Too bad the prototype Milw Rd. didn’t have such a good eye for beauty as their Baltic’s didn’t look nearly as good.   Thanks so much for sharing.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of danspachmd@... Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:04 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Streamlined Varney     I have been following this thread and the photos with much interest and admiration. Gary has bestowed an extraordinary sense of good design, good taste, fine proportionality and artistry on this model; and to boot, exercised fine modeling skills in doing so.  I love the paint scheme, and appreciate very much the sentiment of simply numbering the locomotive sans any lettering. Congratulations!   This moved me to go digging into my way-back collection and bring into the light my own quite fanciful modeling version of the very same Varney streamlined locomotive that I did in 1959 while I was still in medical school.  I am now 80 and retired!     As soon as I can figure out how to do it, I will upload photos.   I did make my locomotive into a 4-6-4.  The main chassis parts were from a Penn Line K4 4-6-2, and the drivers (80") were from a Penn Line T-1 4-4-4-4. The lead truck was also from a Penn Line T-1.  All of these parts were purchased directly from Penn Line. The sprung investment cast brass trailing truck is Budd  (from Kemtron, as are most of the other applied details).  The skirts are fabricated from Strathmore laminated paper, backed with wood strips. A hidden wood  piece extends the pilot down to within an appropriate distance from the rail heads.   The decals are Walthers, when Walthers was THE major decal supplier.    The tender is from a Penn Line T-1.  Because the tender body was too narrow, it had to be significantly widened to match the Varney (which, at 10'6" is overside).   This locomotive spent 5 years span of successfully, smoothly, and effortlessly as a popular regular pulling a 14 car train of fancifully-painted Sampson, Herkimer, and American Beauty cars at high speed around the 70" radius curves of the West Bay Club layout in Menlo Park, CA.  That the locomotive alone weighed (weighs) 2.150 lb. ensured that no train gave it any trouble.    I was surely naive in my then modeling choices, but in the Milwaukee steam passenger realm at the time, the only models that one could lay their hands on were the Walthers Taylor F-6 4-6-4 of 1936-c. 39, or the Rivarossi 4-4-2. (the former was worthy, the latter not so much).     This locomotive has not been on the track, much less run since 1964, but....h-mmm.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22621	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Thanks Dan and thanks too for the history of your Varney Hudson. I received my varney 4 wheel trailing truck and made the mounting bracket for it. After fiddling with it a bit I have it fitting in just fine. It also looks decent, not overwhelming like I was thinking it would. Now to paint the truck to match the loco. Photo of the final 4-6-4 version will be posted a bit later today. As a side note, I managed to acquire an original, complete Varney streamlined tender kit recently. Sorry for out bidding anyone, but just had to have it to eventually go with my loco.   ...Gary --- Original Message --- From: danspachmd@... Sent: April 22, 2014 11:03 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Streamlined Varney I have been following this thread and the photos with much interest and admiration. Gary has bestowed an extraordinary sense of good design, good taste, fine proportionality and artistry on this model; and to boot, exercised fine modeling skills in doing so.  I love the paint scheme, and appreciate very much the sentiment of simply numbering the locomotive sans any lettering. Congratulations! This moved me to go digging into my way-back collection and bring into the light my own quite fanciful modeling version of the very same Varney streamlined locomotive that I did in 1959 while I was still in medical school.  I am now 80 and retired!   As soon as I can figure out how to do it, I will upload photos. I did make my locomotive into a 4-6-4.  The main chassis parts were from a Penn Line K4 4-6-2, and the drivers (80") were from a Penn Line T-1 4-4-4-4. The lead truck was also from a Penn Line T-1.  All of these parts were purchased directly from Penn Line. The sprung investment cast brass trailing truck is Budd  (from Kemtron, as are most of the other applied details).  The skirts are fabricated from Strathmore laminated paper, backed with wood strips. A hidden wood  piece extends the pilot down to within an appropriate distance from the rail heads. The decals are Walthers, when Walthers was THE major decal supplier.  The tender is from a Penn Line T-1.  Because the tender body was too narrow, it had to be significantly widened to match the Varney (which, at 10'6" is overside). This locomotive spent 5 years span of successfully, smoothly, and effortlessly as a popular regular pulling a 14 car train of fancifully-painted Sampson, Herkimer, and American Beauty cars at high speed around the 70" radius curves of the West Bay Club layout in Menlo Park, CA.  That the locomotive alone weighed (weighs) 2.150 lb. ensured that no train gave it any trouble.  I was surely naive in my then modeling choices, but in the Milwaukee steam passenger realm at the time, the only models that one could lay their hands on were the Walthers Taylor F-6 4-6-4 of 1936-c. 39, or the Rivarossi 4-4-2. (the former was worthy, the latter not so much). This locomotive has not been on the track, much less run since 1964, but....h-mmm.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22622	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Hi Denny A., I just noticed the three new photos of your impressive 1959 Varney streamlined Hudson and it is truly amazing how different it appears from Gary's latest project. Both based upon the same kit, but yours with the different profile of the side skirts, Varney tender, the use of the Boxpok type drivers and of course the Milwaukee Road paint job. Well done! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22623	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Hi Gary, I also just noticed your new photos showing the four wheel truck under your streamlined Varney locomotive and it definitely looks like it belongs there! It's been great to see your streamlined Varney Hudson project come to completion and I would not be surprised if your locomotive and Denny's don't motivate some of our other members to find and build one of their own! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22624	From: pcslrr	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: StromBecKer Columbian

recently got a 3 piece set of this but the cars are painted over.i have 2 cars one of which is i believe the Akron . the other car has 3 portholes on one side. there is no third car . i have the engine. the decals are going bad, ive oversprayed it with Krylon clear to protect it. down to business. i`m looking to restore the set in a running model. to do this i will need two sets of sides for the passenger cars and the missing car. also what motor will work in the engine? i just found the name on the side of the car with portholes. it`s name is pittsburgh. any help is appreciated. howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22625	From: maryinvt2	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Model Power Has Closed Doors

I would imagine most all have gotten the news that Model Power is gone. Except for the Mantua line that they purchased, I never payed much attention to them. Does anyone know or heard any rumors about what will happen to Mantua? Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22626	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/22/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian

Possible last resort............ If no originals turn up, contact me and I'll mod sectional shots of your existing car into additional cars for your set, then make photo-prints of those re-newed cars to build. This can include the observation as well. There are simple tricks by putting coins in the picture to ensure that the proper scale is maintained and printed. If you'd like, the same can be done for the decals of the E's from that set. Even the badly cracked decals can be repaired in software and printed as fresh virginal wrappers. A good vintage drive for this set is one of the self-contained with motor on top Varney diesel drives from their early production. Sorry........ I forgot you have the E's in that set. For that I can suggest the power trucks from the AHM E-8. It's another self contained with motor truck that is not much larger than the truck it sits upon. You'll need two of those if you want two powered AHM trucks in the model. [That Varney truck is often used for the EMC model TA B-B that is in the Strombecker Rock Island streamliner set/kit.] Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:44 PM, <EITHLT@...> <EITHLT@...> wrote: recently got a 3 piece set of this but the cars are painted over.i have 2 cars one of which is i believe the Akron . the other car has 3 portholes on one side. there is no third car . i have the engine. the decals are going bad, ive oversprayed it with Krylon clear to protect it. down to business. i`m looking to restore the set in a running model. to do this i will need two sets of sides for the passenger cars and the missing car. also what motor will work in the engine? i just found the name on the side of the car with portholes. it`s name is pittsburgh. any help is appreciated. howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22627	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian

I just realized from seeing an eBay offering that I do have this kit. I think it's complete. I can make copies of the car sides on a photo printer. I will be out of commission until about Monday due to a bit of eye surgery in a few hours. I can help you by Monday or so. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:44 PM, <EITHLT@...> wrote: recently got a 3 piece set of this but the cars are painted over.i have 2 cars one of which is i believe the Akron . the other car has 3 portholes on one side. there is no third car . i have the engine. the decals are going bad, ive oversprayed it with Krylon clear to protect it. down to business. i`m looking to restore the set in a running model. to do this i will need two sets of sides for the passenger cars and the missing car. also what motor will work in the engine? i just found the name on the side of the car with portholes. it`s name is pittsburgh. any help is appreciated. howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22628	From: thealamo	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors

Where did you get the info from?  Thank you! Alamo On 23 April 2014 05:59, <rh@...> wrote:   I would imagine most all have gotten the news that Model Power is gone. Except for the Mantua line that they purchased, I never payed much attention to them. Does anyone know or heard any rumors about what will happen to Mantua? Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22629	From: Don Grant	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors

It is on their website: http://www.modelpower.com/ Don Grant On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 8:20 AM, thealamo <thealamorlt@...> wrote: Where did you get the info from?  Thank you! Alamo On 23 April 2014 05:59, <rh@...> wrote:   I would imagine most all have gotten the news that Model Power is gone. Except for the Mantua line that they purchased, I never payed much attention to them. Does anyone know or heard any rumors about what will happen to Mantua? Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22630	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors

Try this;   http://www.modelpower.com/   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of thealamo Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2014 10:00 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Model Power Has Closed Doors     Where did you get the info from?  Thank you! Alamo   On 23 April 2014 05:59, <rh@...> wrote:   I would imagine most all have gotten the news that Model Power is gone. Except for the Mantua line that they purchased, I never payed much attention to them. Does anyone know or heard any rumors about what will happen to Mantua? Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22631	From: corlissbs	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors

I have a personal interest in this news.  I sent one of my Model Power N-scale steam locos to them for repair in December.  Now I can't reach them.  I think I am screwed.   Brad Franklin, WI   In a message dated 4/23/2014 10:29:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time, grantdono@... writes:   It is on their website: http://www.modelpower.com/ Don Grant On Wednesday, April 23, 2014 8:20 AM, thealamo <thealamorlt@...> wrote: Where did you get the info from?  Thank you! Alamo On 23 April 2014 05:59, <rh@...> wrote:   I would imagine most all have gotten the news that Model Power is gone. Except for the Mantua line that they purchased, I never payed much attention to them. Does anyone know or heard any rumors about what will happen to Mantua? Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22632	From: david_helber	Date: 4/23/2014
Subject: Re: Model Power Has Closed Doors

It's sad to see any model train company shut its doors. But, that's sure going to make the process of checking eBay for Athearn Hustlers a lot faster. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22633	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 4/24/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Well, I did activate the locomotive and take it out for its very first spin in 50 years.  On the bench it turned over promptly, quietly, and smoothly.  After lubrication and wheel cleaning, I ran it around the layout without effort as long as I kept it on the  main tracks.  On its feet, however, it was extremely noisy, IMHO reflecting its open gearing and its unsprung very heavy weight transmitted down to the rails without any of the sound dampening that springing provides. Also, typical of so many of the pre-RP25 locomotives, it did not take  very kindly at all to my code 70 and 55 turnouts and track work.   Of interest, I noted a lot of electrolytic corrosion around the steel screws holding together the various aluminum, steel and lead alloy parts of the tender (a witches brew of dissimilar metals). As I recall 50 years later, I chose the particular skirting pattern because I wanted the large drivers to be fully exposed, and also because the more graceful curving skirt that Gary chose would not clear the Penn Line steam chests.  By serendipity, I still have a Varney Pacific chassis to further convert it again, if I so chose. I never have seen the original Varney streamlined tender, or the kit.  As i recall, it had seemed to me to be disproportionately small. I also enjoyed the discussion on streamlined steam, an interest of mine as well, and a subject on which I have also written on in the past.  Some of the railroads' efforts were tasteful, others not- and a totally surprising large number of railroads made such efforts at some sort of streamlining or "streamstyling".  Prior to his death, I enjoyed a productive correspondence with Otto Kuhler, probably the most successful industrial designer in the field (O&W, B&O, Southern, Milwaukee, LV).  He passed away just before we were going to stop by and see him on the Colorado  ranch where he retired. I will probably be once again cocooning this old streamlined model and putting it away.  Because i no longer feel  acquisitive about models that no longer fit into my current prototype modeling and operating mode, I  will probably  put it up for sale so that an appreciative person can give it new life. Denny     Denny S. Anspach Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22634	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian

In giving this further thought where a drive is to be considered for the StromBecKer B&O E-6A heading up the three-car "Columbian" train, a number of other options are open, more in keeping with those times.  Precision Models made a worm-drive (on all six wheels) E-7 power truck using a Pittman DC-71A motor, at least as early as 1950.  Walthers offered their six-wheel (but four wheel drive) # U530A E-7 power truck using a Pittman DC-71 in 1949; the center wheels not being powered.  Another choice would be Lindsay, which had their EMC six-wheel # L-146 power truck.     As for the StromBecKer Rock Island "Rocket" EMC TA unit, most often used to power these models when they were first being produced was Walthers' 4-wheel # U240 power truck, which we discussed on this same topic a year or two ago.  This was a pre-War power truck, operated on 6 - 9 volts as StromBecKer first came out with their RI "Rocket" train (w/TA) before the War.  Walthers 1940 catalog stated (on page 7); Rock Island Rocket   "We offer a conversion kit with which the wood model of the Strombecker Co.'s streamline Rocket can be built into a working model of this train."  Additionally, Walthers 1941 catalog (on page 11) stated; "Rock Island Conversion Kit: Includes power truck (# U240), three pair trailing trucks, detail parts and instruction drawing for converting the wood model of the Strombecker Co.'s streamline Rocket into an operating unit."  Walthers 1946 catalog (on page H-5, the combined HO Gauge - O Gauge Edition) still carried their # U240 power truck but made no mention then about StromBecKer even though Walthers advertised is well before the War -- and even though we know StromBecKer's RI Rocket (and other models) were still in production after the War -- as also noted in their catalog.   As Walthers 1946 catalog placement of this power truck makes no mention of what power supply it's to run on, by this time we know that much of the power in HO modeling was being converted to 12 volt (some, like Varney endorsing the use of 5-pole 12 volt armatures to convert their V-1's); it may be possible that Walthers had used Pittman DC-60 motors with their # U240 power trucks by that time, as they used DC-60's on their similar power truck within a few years, although this remains to be seen.  By 1949, Walthers catalog (on page 16) was carrying their 4-wheel power truck # 483 which was using the Pittman DC-60 motor -- another choice to power the StromBecKer RI Rocket TA, in addition to the Varney F-3 power truck.   Ray          In a message dated 4/23/2014 12:57:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   Possible last resort............ If no originals turn up, contact me and I'll mod sectional shots of your existing car into additional cars for your set, then make photo-prints of those re-newed cars to build. This can include the observation as well. There are simple tricks by putting coins in the picture to ensure that the proper scale is maintained and printed. If you'd like, the same can be done for the decals of the E's from that set. Even the badly cracked decals can be repaired in software and printed as fresh virginal wrappers. A good vintage drive for this set is one of the self-contained with motor on top Varney diesel drives from their early production. Sorry........ I forgot you have the E's in that set. For that I can suggest the power trucks from the AHM E-8. It's another self contained with motor truck that is not much larger than the truck it sits upon. You'l l need two of those if you want two powered AHM trucks in the model. [That Varney truck is often used for the EMC model TA B-B that is in the Strombecker Rock Island streamliner set/kit.] Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:44 PM, <EITHLT@...> <EITHLT@...> wrote: recently got a 3 piece set of this but the cars are painted over.i have 2 cars one of which is i believe the Akron . the other car has 3 portholes on one side. there is no third car . i have the engine. the decals are going bad, ive oversprayed it with Krylon clear to protect it. down to business. i`m looking to restore the set in a running model. to do this i will need two sets of sides for the passenger cars and the missing car. also what motor will work in the engine? i just found the name on the si de of the car with portholes. it`s name is pittsburgh. any help is appreciated. howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22635	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian

In giving this further thought where a drive is to be considered for the StromBecKer B&O E-6A heading up the three-car "Columbian" train, a number of other options are open, more in keeping with those times.  Precision Models made a worm-drive (on all six wheels) E-7 power truck using a Pittman DC-71A motor, at least as early as 1950.  Walthers offered their six-wheel (but four wheel drive) # U530A E-7 power truck using a Pittman DC-71 in 1949; the center wheels not being powered.  Another choice would be Lindsay, which had their EMC six-wheel # L-146 power truck.     As for the StromBecKer Rock Island "Rocket" EMC TA unit, most often used to power these models when they were first being produced was Walthers' 4-wheel # U240 power truck, which we discussed on this same topic a year or two ago.  This was a pre-War power truck, operated on 6 - 9 volts as StromBecKer first came out with their RI "Rocket" train (w/TA) before the War.  Walthers 1940 catalog stated (on page 7); Rock Island Rocket   "We offer a conversion kit with which the wood model of the Strombecker Co.'s streamline Rocket can be built into a working model of this train."  Additionally, Walthers 1941 catalog (on page 11) stated; "Rock Island Conversion Kit: Includes power truck (# U240), three pair trailing trucks, detail parts and instruction drawing for converting the wood model of the Strombecker Co.'s streamline Rocket into an operating unit."  Walthers 1946 catalog (on page H-5, the combined HO Gauge - O Gauge Edition) still carried their # U240 power truck but made no mention then about StromBecKer even though Walthers advertised is well before the War -- and even though we know StromBecKer's RI Rocket (and other models) were still in production after the War -- as also noted in their catalog.   As Walthers 1946 catalog placement of this power truck makes no mention of what power supply it's to run on, by this time we know that much of the power in HO modeling was being converted to 12 volt (some, like Varney endorsing the use of 5-pole 12 volt armatures to convert their V-1's); it may be possible that Walthers had used Pittman DC-60 motors with their # U240 power trucks by that time, as they used DC-60's on their similar power truck within a few years, although this remains to be seen.  By 1949, Walthers catalog (on page 16) was carrying their 4-wheel power truck # 483 which was using the Pittman DC-60 motor -- another choice to power the StromBecKer RI Rocket TA, in addition to the Varney F-3 power truck.   Ray Wetzel          In a message dated 4/23/2014 12:57:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   Possible last resort............ If no originals turn up, contact me and I'll mod sectional shots of your existing car into additional cars for your set, then make photo-prints of those re-newed cars to build. This can include the observation as well. There are simple tricks by putting coins in the picture to ensure that the proper scale is maintained and printed. If you'd like, the same can be done for the decals of the E's from that set. Even the badly cracked decals can be repaired in software and printed as fresh virginal wrappers. A good vintage drive for this set is one of the self-contained with motor on top Varney diesel drives from their early production. Sorry........ I forgot you have the E's in that set. For that I can suggest the power trucks from the AHM E-8. It's another self contained with motor truck that is not much larger than the truck it sits upon. You'l l need two of those if you want two powered AHM trucks in the model. [That Varney truck is often used for the EMC model TA B-B that is in the Strombecker Rock Island streamliner set/kit.] Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:44 PM, <EITHLT@...> <EITHLT@...> wrote: recently got a 3 piece set of this but the cars are painted over.i have 2 cars one of which is i believe the Akron . the other car has 3 portholes on one side. there is no third car . i have the engine. the decals are going bad, ive oversprayed it with Krylon clear to protect it. down to business. i`m looking to restore the set in a running model. to do this i will need two sets of sides for the passenger cars and the missing car. also what motor will work in the engine? i just found the name on the si de of the car with portholes. it`s name is pittsburgh. any help is appreciated. howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22636	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: new toy

Attachments : $_57-4.JPG $_57-2.JPG $_57-1.JPG I just won a very unique HO E-whatever that might be a very limited run of an early kit. Does this look like a known commercial drive? Does anyone recognize the model itself as far as what small company made the kit or built it? This is coming to me from Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania, United States Thanks Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22637	From: the_plainsman	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: new toy

Hi Mike B., Is that a sand cast bronze or brass body shell? Difficult to tell from the underbody view of the power trucks. I have something similar about midway in length between an F unit and an E unit. Will dig it out when I'm home later tonight and post a pic tomorrow. And have no idea (or even an opinion) on the origins of your great find! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22638	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: new toy

I don't know yet. They are in the mail, coming to me. Sometime later today I'll post something about similar sheet metal F-units that are also a mystery.  There is a very strong family resemblance to the making and design of these E's and F's. The cooling fans are fewer, a bit crude, and simplistic on both these E's and F's. I got an A and B of the brass near-F's, with a single power truck and three nice brass un-powered trucks. This F is missing the motor and whatever drive gear would be in the motor. The geared truck is otherwise complete, The E should arrive sometime [early ?] next week. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 25, 2014, at 12:53 PM, <the_plainsman@...> wrote: Hi Mike B., Is that a sand cast bronze or brass body shell? Difficult to tell from the underbody view of the power trucks. I have something similar about midway in length between an F unit and an E unit. Will dig it out when I'm home later tonight and post a pic tomorrow. And have no idea (or even an opinion) on the origins of your great find! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22639	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: New, ancient F3's

Attachments : photo 5.JPG photo 4.JPG photo 3.JPG photo 1.JPG $_57.JPG I recently won this pair of F-3 [Almost] models. I'm guessing that they are a very early run imported into the USA. They might be made in the USA. But I doubt that due to the quite sketchy nature of the roof cooling fans and the lack of any rivet or bolt detail on the roof panels. They are well engineered and have very nice detail in the etched sides. I not can find any sort of maker mark on them. The chassis/floor are well made as if they are stamped production items and not made for just the two models.the fuel tanks are very cleanly cast lead. The diesel side frames are not quite EMD, yet very well executed and are most likely lost wax cast. The sheet metal nose is very well formed and attached, the nose angle is just a bit too slanted to my eyes. I suspect these are just a few years post-war from Japan. It appears that the truck sets are in the original celluloid wrappers and that the models were never fully assembled, powered, nor operated. It has the most quaint brass cased grain of wheat or rice head lights with bare, or very thin and clear insulation on them; leading back to where the power truck would mount. I remember Kemtron having a similar brass cased bulb for many years as a stock item. It likely was an import item. I don't know how old it is, or where it came from. I'd like to get more of the right sized screws to hold it together, wheel-set the unpowered trucks, and perhaps modern main gear the power truck and use a contemporary motor in her. I'm very tempted to bright-dip the brass bodies [safely] and clear coat them to remain as they are.... The marker lights are drilled and installed with tiny gem-globes. They do light up when I shine a flashlight in the body If anyone even thinks they recognize these models, Please respond with your recall or even your best guess. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22640	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 4/25/2014
Subject: Re: New, ancient F3's [5 Attachments]

On 4/25/2014 5:48 PM, Mike Bauers wrote:   I recently won this pair of F-3 [Almost] models. I'm guessing that they are a very early run imported into the USA. They might be made in the USA. But I doubt that due to the quite sketchy nature of the roof cooling fans and the lack of any rivet or bolt detail on the roof panels. They are well engineered and have very nice detail in the etched sides. I not can find any sort of maker mark on them. The chassis/floor are well made as if they are stamped production items and not made for just the two models.the fuel tanks are very cleanly cast lead. The diesel side frames are not quite EMD, yet very well executed and are most likely lost wax cast. The sheet metal nose is very well formed and attached, the nose angle is just a bit too slanted to my eyes. I suspect these are just a few years post-war from Japan. It appears that the truck sets are in the original celluloid wrappers and that the models were never fully assembled, powered, nor operated. It has the most quaint brass cased grain of wheat or rice head lights with bare, or very thin and clear insulation on them; leading back to where the power truck would mount. I remember Kemtron having a similar brass cased bulb for many years as a stock item. It likely was an import item. I don't know how old it is, or where it came from. I'd like to get more of the right sized screws to hold it together, wheel-set the unpowered trucks, and perhaps modern main gear the power truck and use a contemporary motor in her. I'm very tempted to bright-dip the brass bodies [safely] and clear coat them to remain as they are.... The marker lights are drilled and installed with tiny gem-globes. They do light up when I shine a flashlight in the body If anyone even thinks they recognize these models, Please respond with your recall or even your best guess. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Would not surprise me at at all if they weren't Tenshodo, imported by International. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22641	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 4/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer Columbian

In giving this further thought where a drive is to be considered for the StromBecKer B&O E-6A heading up the three-car "Columbian" train, a number of other options are open, more in keeping with those times.  Precision Models made a worm-drive (on all six wheels) E-7 power truck using a Pittman DC-71A motor, at least as early as 1950.  Walthers offered their six-wheel (but four wheel drive) # U530A E-7 power truck using a Pittman DC-71 in 1949; the center wheels not being powered.  Another choice would be Lindsay, which had their EMC six-wheel # L-146 power truck.     As for the StromBecKer Rock Island "Rocket" EMC TA unit, most often used to power these models when they were first being produced was Walthers' 4-wheel # U240 power truck, which we discussed on this same topic a year or two ago.  This was a pre-War power truck, operated on 6 - 9 volts as StromBecKer first came out with their RI "Rocket" train (w/TA) before the War.  Walthers 1940 catalog stated (on page 7); Rock Island Rocket   "We offer a conversion kit with which the wood model of the Strombecker Co.'s streamline Rocket can be built into a working model of this train."  Additionally, Walthers 1941 catalog (on page 11) stated; "Rock Island Conversion Kit: Includes power truck (# U240), three pair trailing trucks, detail parts and instruction drawing for converting the wood model of the Strombecker Co.'s streamline Rocket into an operating unit."  Walthers 1946 catalog (on page H-5, the combined HO Gauge - O Gauge Edition) still carried their # U240 power truck but made no mention then about StromBecKer even though Walthers advertised is well before the War -- and even though we know StromBecKer's RI Rocket (and other models) were still in production after the War -- as also noted in their catalog.   As Walthers 1946 catalog placement of this power truck makes no mention of what power supply it's to run on, by this time we know that much of the power in HO modeling was being converted to 12 volt (some, like Varney endorsing the use of 5-pole 12 volt armatures to convert their V-1's); it may be possible that Walthers had used Pittman DC-60 motors with their # U240 power trucks by that time, as they used DC-60's on their similar power truck within a few years, although this remains to be seen.  By 1949, Walthers catalog (on page 16) was carrying their 4-wheel power truck # 483 which was using the Pittman DC-60 motor -- another choice to power the StromBecKer RI Rocket TA, in addition to the Varney F-3 power truck.   Ray Wetzel          In a message dated 4/23/2014 12:57:49 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mwbauers55@... writes:   Possible last resort............ If no originals turn up, contact me and I'll mod sectional shots of your existing car into additional cars for your set, then make photo-prints of those re-newed cars to build. This can include the observation as well. There are simple tricks by putting coins in the picture to ensure that the proper scale is maintained and printed. If you'd like, the same can be done for the decals of the E's from that set. Even the badly cracked decals can be repaired in software and printed as fresh virginal wrappers. A good vintage drive for this set is one of the self-contained with motor on top Varney diesel drives from their early production. Sorry........ I forgot you have the E's in that set. For that I can suggest the power trucks from the AHM E-8. It's another self contained with motor truck that is not much larger than the truck it sits upon. You'l l need two of those if you want two powered AHM trucks in the model. [That Varney truck is often used for the EMC model TA B-B that is in the Strombecker Rock Island streamliner set/kit.] Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Apr 22, 2014, at 9:44 PM, <EITHLT@...> <EITHLT@...> wrote: recently got a 3 piece set of this but the cars are painted over.i have 2 cars one of which is i believe the Akron . the other car has 3 portholes on one side. there is no third car . i have the engine. the decals are going bad, ive oversprayed it with Krylon clear to protect it. down to business. i`m looking to restore the set in a running model. to do this i will need two sets of sides for the passenger cars and the missing car. also what motor will work in the engine? i just found the name on the si de of the car with portholes. it`s name is pittsburgh. any help is appreciated. howard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22642	From: david_helber	Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Hustler drive variations

Is there any place on the web that illustrates or describes all the variations in the Athearn Hustler Hi-F drives and frames?  I've seen them with the original style plain shafts, shafts with metal eyelet-flanges on the ends (maybe a customer mod?), shafts with plastic stops whose frames had rollers to redirect the bands, motors with a wire for the hot brush, motors with a metal clip instead, frames with needlepoint axles and with blunt-end axles. How many different variants were there, when did they appear, and did it make any significant difference in their running qualities?  Were there any changes in the body to match the different generations of drives? (I'm guessing it was the same body throughout). I'm talking just the Hi-F drives, not the Lionel/Cox geared locos and Ernst or other aftermarket drives. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22643	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 4/29/2014
Subject: Dual Query

I have two different 2-6-2 locos that I wish to trade with a friend.   One is a regular Mantua small-drivered(like their 0-6-0’s) metal superstructure job and the other seems to be a MDC(old – it’s metal throughout, gear, driver, and all) with a what seems to be a Bowser boiler casting(like a 4-4-2 or similar). The jobs I had planned for these have changed due to new interests, not to mention my moving to a new, smaller place..   The question is: value? Assume running condition and with tenders.   Cruising ebay’s completed items takes about forever with this dial-up connection, and there may not be any there, so I appeal to this group.   Thanks in advance!   Fred Hultberg(resident etching  wizard, Fotocut)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22644	From: albyrno	Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Hustler drive variations

If you look on HO seeker website you will find different variations/exploded diagrams(1964 - 1991) for this loco.  Alan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22645	From: vancampbell64	Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Hustler drive variations

Hello David, Although I've only been collecting Athearn Yellow Box Era models for about 4 years now, Athearns have been my main choice of products for my modeling since the mid-1970's. I've got about 20 early Athearn Hustlers in my possession and all are the ubiquitous needle-pint axle, Hi-F motor w/wire spring brush type of mechanism. I know of the later style with the "Jet Motor" and Blue Box switcher type motor mounts. These are the only two factory variations that I'm aware of with the mentioned Lionel and Ernst excepted. I've invited you to join the "Athearn Yellow Box Era Collectors Group" Facebook site that I administer, as I've got several "old heads" as members who might give you a clearer insight on the issue. These guys have seen it all when it comes to Athearn products.  Van B. Campbell P.S. My friend Dave Conner administers the "Athearn Blue Box Era Collectors Group" also on Facebook. Please join our groups.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22646	From: John Hagen	Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Dual Query

Well,   If you are interested in opinion based on what I’ve been able to sell these type of locos for at swaps and such, about $25.00 - $30.00 each. Yeah there are all kinds of these things on eBay for a lot higher but the seldom sell at those prices.   The MDC’s always seem to have higher asking prices but I have much easier times selling Mantua Shifters and Big Sixes for around $25 - $35 than I do MDC 0-6-0’s (tender types). Since this is a deal between two friends I’d ask for $45.00 - $55.00 total for both. They are worth it and it is about what you’d normally get for them without waiting around for the one born every minute. It would be, IMHO, a price fair to each.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hultberg Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 10:59 PM To: HO Subject: [vintageHO] Dual Query     I have two different 2-6-2 locos that I wish to trade with a friend.   One is a regular Mantua small-drivered(like their 0-6-0’s) metal superstructure job and the other seems to be a MDC(old – it’s metal throughout, gear, driver, and all) with a what seems to be a Bowser boiler casting(like a 4-4-2 or similar). The jobs I had planned for these have changed due to new interests, not to mention my moving to a new, smaller place..   The question is: value? Assume running condition and with tenders.   Cruising ebay’s completed items takes about forever with this dial-up connection, and there may not be any there, so I appeal to this group.   Thanks in advance!   Fred Hultberg(resident etching  wizard, Fotocut)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22647	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 4/30/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,

Attachments : Picture 13.png I just got the mystery EMD E-type model locomotive. I jumped a bit in excitement. After unwrapping it I immediately saw the very similar fans and horns to the Suzuki and Edwards F-3 somethings I got about a month ago. On close examination those parts, they are identical. Very similar as well is the construction of the body and nose as well as the design of the chassis, the power truck span bar, the coining and assembly of the unpowered truck, the body segments, the front dummy coupler mount, the same thickness of body metal and detail hatch metal, and other details. The unknown E-unit and the F-3's are -definitely- from the same designer and producer. Named in the eBay offering on the F3's as 'Suzuki and Edwards' I just looked again in eBay and in the completed auctions found some more 'Suzuki and Edwards' stuff. One was a brass kit for a DRG&W 2-6-0, another for a F-7 both dated as the early 50's. I'll attach an image of that 2-6-0 kit in its box. Available today from a hobby shop online is this..... "1 ??? 2-8-2 Suzuki & Edwards. Probably Tetsudo, circa 1952. EXC $180 " The '???' refers to the road-names of the models that he lists as available. "http://herbsdepot.weebly.com/" There are several other ebay sold S&E products dated as Late 50's, they are all larger Tin-plate models of a wide veriety of designs and drives. Written in one of them is this.. "Up for sale is a 1959 tin friction Ford toy truck made by Suzuki & Edwards for Rosko Toy Distributors of Japan." One of the more interesting ones is this Army Air Car dated as 1855 http://www.grandoldtoys.com/toydb_Detail.php?id=1573 From that..... "Even more mysterious than its "mysterious action" is who actually made the toy? The Suzuki and Edwards trademark plus "Made in Japan" were lithoed onto the toy. The box was printed with the K.S.S. trademark of Komoda Toys, but was blacked out at the time it was manufactured. There are no other identifying marks on the box. Don Hultzman's Collectors Guide to Battery Operated Toys indicates that the Flying Jeep was produced by Nomura. I don't know why these discrepancies exist, but Suzuki and Edwards seem to be the most likely manufacturer. " This toy auction closed at $662 ........... So, perhaps 'Suzuki and Edwards' started in model railroading in the late 40's and moved to the more mass market of tin toys by the late 50's? Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 25, 2014, at 3:22 PM, Gary Mittner wrote: > Hi Mike, thanks for participating in my eBay auction and congrats > on adding the unknown brass diesel to your collection. I received > your PayPal payment. I am currently out of town but will be back > late saturday. I will be shipping the loco on Monday morning. Good > luck id-ing the model. I belong to yahoos vintage ho group as well > and no one there was able to help me id the model several years ago. > I asked other people/forums as well and no one knows the history. > So, like I said, good luck. ...Gary

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22648	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,

Mike, My go-to guy for ‘real’ vintage models, has said the Fs are very reflective of early ‘50s Tetsudo products. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22649	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,

That sure goes with some other clues I found on line that I couldn't be certain applied to them. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On May 1, 2014, at 3:02 PM, Denis Long wrote: > > > Mike, > My go-to guy for ‘real’ vintage models, has said the Fs are very > reflective of early ‘50s Tetsudo products. > Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22650	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,

I just noticed the length of the E-like is a bit short. I've now got a scale E-6 next to it and there's nearly a 10 foot difference in length. It's still a very nice model and thinking about it a bit, I like the idea of finishing her in one of the older EMD E or F Demo paint schemes. Maybe something from the E-6/F-3 era? I'll just consider it to be a scale model of something that ran in an alternative reality from that EMD. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Apr 30, 2014, at 3:30 PM, Mike Bauers wrote: > I just got the mystery EMD E-type model locomotive. > > I jumped a bit in excitement. After unwrapping it I immediately saw > the very similar fans and horns to the Suzuki and Edwards F-3 > somethings I got about a month ago. On close examination those > parts, they are identical. Very similar as well is the construction > of the body and nose as well as the design of the chassis, the power > truck span bar, the coining and assembly of the unpowered truck, the > body segments, the front dummy coupler mount, the same thickness of > body metal and detail hatch metal, and other details. > > The unknown E-unit and the F-3's are -definitely- from the same > designer and producer. > > Named in the eBay offering on the F3's as 'Suzuki and Edwards' ...................... Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22651	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Early Tenshodo?

Attachments : image-22651.jpg Hi all, I believe this Japanese electric locomotive prototype is an early Tenshodo model as well. Likely only intended for the Japanese market, must've come home to the US with some 1950s US servicemen. Does anyone have any paperwork or an additional information on this?Thanks! W. Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22652	From: JP Barger	Date: 5/1/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,

Greetings!      This is my first attempt at a note to the Vintage Group, and refers to Denis Long's curiosity about early HO E & F units. I spent a lot of time in the sixties and seventies traveling from my base near Boston on work projects in California . A good part of that was to the area south of SFO. In my spare time, I made acquaintances with all the hobby shops in that area, and several of the modelers. One of my stops was in San Mateo at M. B. Austin's shop. In that time frame, I acquired a Japan-factory painted SP 4-8-4 in SP Daylight colors.  At about the same time, I added both an E unit and an F in Daylight dress. Hand painted lettering! When I asked MBA about these models, he said he had imported all of the above and also sold me the SP Daylight passenger train to go with the locos. He had imported these low production quantity models from Tetsudo Mokei to see if there was a market for such models. In the meantime, KTM (Katsumi) had begun to make far superior models of SP Daylight steam locos with which the early Tetsudo could not compete in prototype accuracy and especially in drive operation. So the Austin/Tetsudo/Daylight project never took off. Tetsudo and other Far East would-be model suppliers were limited in what they could produce, because they weren't given more than outline drawings to work from. It's amusing to look at some of the products of that era. We need to compliment our early Japanese makers because the models very accurately represent the outline drawing versions of the real railroad locos and cars. Akane shook up the other makers after 1962 with much more accurately made loco shells. Korean makers made an even better product in the next competitive round. Later importers got the prototype data together with perfection in mind in later years. Models became more and more accurate.   The E/F units Denis has are most probably of Tetsudo manufacture. Another clue leading to Tetsudo would be rectangular glue-backed paper labels of a blue center and a white border, stating "MADE IN JAPAN" glued somewhere to the models, usually on the bottom. Only Tetsudo seemed to use these. These labels, just guessing, might be of about 3/8 x 5/8 size.(I'm writing this in the office without benefit of having the models in front of me.)   By the way, there is another brass passenger train, probably by Tetsudo, representing the C&NW '400' trains, with squarer windows. Unfortunately, the cars were made shorter than scale, same as the Daylight cars. Operability on smaller radius curves was more important in those days. I believe I have all these cars also.   The E&F models reflect the outline drawings quite well. Hope this has been helpful.     JP Barger   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denis Long Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 4:03 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage Diesel,     Mike, My go-to guy for ‘real’ vintage models, has said the Fs are very reflective of early ‘50s Tetsudo products. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22653	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel,

I need to find out more about Suzuki and Edwards – their role in early HO imports is poorly documented. Anyone else know much about them?   The one thing I know is that there were only a couple of Japanese brass shops operating at the time (early 1950’s) and a few importers bringing them in under their name (like IMP and Suzuki, and PFM a little later).   Thanks in advance.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22654	From: erieberk	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] StromBecKer Columbian

Attachments :

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22655	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Athearn Pacifics wanted

Hi all,   A friend of mine into vintage HO is looking to add to his collection of the early (60's) Athearn 4-6-2  steam engines.  They are the ones with the mis-printed box with Hi-Fi rubber band drive labels.  I believe they had some with plastic drivers and a later version with metal wheels.  He is not on the internet, so if you have any available I can  get you his contact info. Thanks for any help, Tom VH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22656	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel

To be clear, I don’t own these models, these are  Mike, the Bauers, property.   The FIRST HAND knowledge possessed by ‘my guy’, and J.P. B., is a precious resource.  Why?  Because these models don’t dissolve (unlike some of the die cast products).   Even so, there are many of us who are very interested in the provenance of older models we acquire, die cast included,.  Somehow, the identification of our old models provides great satisfaction;  Who did it, when, where?   One of the best sources for early models is Lenahans’ “Lexicons”.    With his  evidence, and my guy, I have accepted that  my mystery T1 is an early, one-off  Tetsudo product. Sincerely, Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22657	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/2/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel

Dennis ,  Did you get the early T1 that went through eBay in the last couple of days? The one I saw had a heavy brass twin bar frame with no articulated cheat to it. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On May 2, 2014, at 7:43 PM, "Denis Long" <avanti78@...> wrote: To be clear, I don’t own these models, these are  Mike, the Bauers, property.   The FIRST HAND knowledge possessed by ‘my guy’, and J.P. B., is a precious resource.  Why?  Because these models don’t dissolve (unlike some of the die cast products).   Even so, there are many of us who are very interested in the provenance of older models we acquire, die cast included,.  Somehow, the identification of our old models provides great satisfaction;  Who did it, when, where?   One of the best sources for early models is Lenahans’ “Lexicons”.    With his  evidence, and my guy, I have accepted that  my mystery T1 is an early, one-off  Tetsudo product. Sincerely, Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22658	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel

Mike, No darn-it. I don’t care how many time you check, you still miss some. But I will check eBay. Thank you, Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22659	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel

It passed through a couple of days ago. I meant bid on it and lost track of the time due to conflicts.  I was hoping to bring it home, or that you got it. I'll post its details in a few minutes. I can't decide if it was a domestic commercial model, a clever partly home-build or if the engine was an early Japanese import. You'll understand when you see the images. I sure would have loved to re-Hab it and club operate it. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On May 3, 2014, at 1:09 PM, "Denis Long" <avanti78@...> wrote: Mike, No darn-it. I don’t care how many time you check, you still miss some. But I will check eBay. Thank you, Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22660	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

This missed offering on eBay was a mix of commercial and either Japanese or bench-built locomotive. The construction caught my eye with its heavy bar frame that would need a very broad curve to operate on. I know the perfect club for that. I think the engine body was sand-cast brass/bronze. The tender body seems to be cast aluminum. What a mystery locomotive......... Images  attached. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On May 3, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: It passed through a couple of days ago. I meant bid on it and lost track of the time due to conflicts.  I was hoping to bring it home, or that you got it. I'll post its details in a few minutes. I can't decide if it was a domestic commercial model, a clever partly home-build or if the engine was an early Japanese import. You'll understand when you see the images. I sure would have loved to re-Hab it and club operate it. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On May 3, 2014, at 1:09 PM, "Denis Long" <avanti78@...> wrote: Mike, No darn-it. I don’t care how many time you check, you still miss some. But I will check eBay. Thank you, Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22661	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacifics wanted

In a message dated 5/2/2014 5:45:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, tomvanhoy@... writes:   Hi all,   A friend of mine into vintage HO is looking to add to his collection of the early (60's) Athearn 4-6-2  steam engines.  They are the ones with the mis-printed box with Hi-Fi rubber band drive labels.  I believe they had some with plastic drivers and a later version with metal wheels.  He is not on the internet, so if you have any available I can  get you his contact info. Thanks for any help, Tom VH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22662	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacifics wanted

In a message dated 5/2/2014 5:45:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, tomvanhoy@... writes:   Hi all,   A friend of mine into vintage HO is looking to add to his collection of the early (60's) Athearn 4-6-2  steam engines.  They are the ones with the mis-printed box with Hi-Fi rubber band drive labels.  I believe they had some with plastic drivers and a later version with metal wheels.  He is not on the internet, so if you have any available I can  get you his contact info. Thanks for any help, Tom VH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22663	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacifics wanted

Sorry about the empty messages, but my computer sent them before I ever got to type.   I have two new in box, Athearn, B&M Pacifics-one plastic driver and one metal driver.  One is in its own box and the other is in a B&M train set.  They have never even been removed from the box by me.  While I am not actively looking to sell them, I would if the price was fair.  Please send me your friend's contact info.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 5/2/2014 5:45:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, tomvanhoy@... writes:   Hi all,   A friend of mine into vintage HO is looking to add to his collection of the early (60's) Athearn 4-6-2  steam engines.  They are the ones with the mis-printed box with Hi-Fi rubber band drive labels.  I believe they had some with plastic drivers and a later version with metal wheels.  He is not on the internet, so if you have any available I can  get you his contact info. Thanks for any help, Tom VH

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22664	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Pacifics wanted

His name is John Harmon.  His number is 570-322-2922.  He is in Pennsylvania, Eastern time zone. Thanks, Tom

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22665	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel [5 Attachments]

On 04/05/14 7:03, Mike Bauers wrote: > This missed offering on eBay was a mix of commercial and either Japanese or > bench-built locomotive. The construction caught my eye with its heavy bar frame > that would need a very broad curve to operate on. I know the perfect club for that. > > I think the engine body was sand-cast brass/bronze. The tender body seems to be > cast aluminum. > > What a mystery locomotive......... Hello Mike. A most interesting early loco. I haven't seen the brass/aluminium combo before. I'm also interested in early Seki (prewar O-gauge (if I'm allowed to say those words on this group) and Sakai (postwar cast and tinplate HO, S and O) I've also started collecting Japanese brass HO for my planned Virginian Railway layout. Currently I have 4 (I kid you not) Japanese KMT 2-10-10-2's and various other items of Korean origin. If any members have interests diverging as far as the enigmatic Sakai and Seki and other similar ranges, you would be most welcome to join our group - I'm moderator: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Sakai_SekiToyTrainGroup/info (shameless plug..) Mike, may I have permission to post your fine pictures on our group's yahoo site? They will be of interest to us, and we may even be able to offer some information. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22666	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/3/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

The pictures are from the eBay auction. You'll want to use the PDF page of that (part of the earlier post) as the contact info to get permission from the original eBay poster. Possibly by including that PDF you are properly crediting the original poster per your national laws? Copy write laws can be such a mess from country to country..... That locomotive frame sure gives one an idea or two on how to make a similar durable frame for a vintage steamer model in need of a chassis. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone > On May 3, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Doug Harris <digbee@...> wrote: > >> On 04/05/14 7:03, Mike Bauers wrote: >> This missed offering on eBay was a mix of commercial and either Japanese or >> bench-built locomotive. The construction caught my eye with its heavy bar frame >> that would need a very broad curve to operate on. I know the perfect club for that. >> >> I think the engine body was sand-cast brass/bronze. The tender body seems to be >> cast aluminum. >> >> What a mystery locomotive......... > > Hello Mike. > > A most interesting early loco. I haven't seen the brass/aluminium combo > before. > > I'm also interested in early Seki (prewar O-gauge (if I'm allowed to say > those words on this group) and Sakai (postwar cast and tinplate HO, S and O) > > I've also started collecting Japanese brass HO for my planned Virginian > Railway layout. > > Currently I have 4 (I kid you not) Japanese KMT 2-10-10-2's and various > other items of Korean origin. > > If any members have interests diverging as far as the enigmatic Sakai > and Seki and other similar ranges, you would be most welcome to join our > group - I'm moderator: > > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Sakai_SekiToyTrainGroup/info > > (shameless plug..) > > Mike, may I have permission to post your fine pictures on our group's > yahoo site? They will be of interest to us, and we may even be able to > offer some information. > > -- > Doug Harris > Auckland, New Zealand >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22667	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

On 04/05/14 18:18, Mike Bauers wrote: > The pictures are from the eBay auction. You'll want to use the PDF > page of that (part of the earlier post) as the contact info to get > permission from the original eBay poster. > > Possibly by including that PDF you are properly crediting the > original poster per your national laws? Copy write laws can be such a > mess from country to country..... > Mike Bauers Mike, Thanks for your prompt reply. If the pictures are on ebay, they are pretty-well in the public vein. As ours is a closed (private) members-only group, I tend to use quite a lot of stuff straight from ebay. I'll come back if I have any info to add here. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22668	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

Mike. You are a good guy and mean well with your posts but you are not correct in this one. It is perfectly OK to use an image from eBay on this list. No laws are being violated. Once you post it on eBay it is in the public domain, just like any advertisement. I spent 25 years working with copyright and intellectual property law and as a group we need to stop attacking people who post public domain images as if we were in a court of law. We aren't. We are in a closed group that requires membership evaluation to join. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <mwbauers55@...> wrote : The pictures are from the eBay auction. You'll want to use the PDF page of that (part of the earlier post) as the contact info to get permission from the original eBay poster. Possibly by including that PDF you are properly crediting the original poster per your national laws? Copy write laws can be such a mess from country to country..... That locomotive frame sure gives one an idea or two on how to make a similar durable frame for a vintage steamer model in need of a chassis. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22669	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

I'm just being cautious. I've been in too many copywrite disagreements of confusion over the years. This time I was asked from someone in New Zealand if he could post the images.   Not knowing the rules on this as changed for today from that unstable D.C , where the rules and laws change every week; there's no way I could know what the laws of New Zealand are about this.  One yahoo list I'm in did a purge of everything that did not have attached permissions. While some others have really harsh debates about even sharing an image off list between members. It's so very confusing. So I can only suggest and hope for the best. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On May 4, 2014, at 6:43 AM, <mattjcoleman@...> wrote: Mike. You are a good guy and mean well with your posts but you are not correct in this one. It is perfectly OK to use an image from eBay on this list. No laws are being violated. Once you post it on eBay it is in the public domain, just like any advertisement. I spent 25 years working with copyright and intellectual property law and as a group we need to stop attacking people who post public domain images as if we were in a court of law. We aren't. We are in a closed group that requires membership evaluation to join. Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <mwbauers55@...> wrote : The pictures are from the eBay auction. You'll want to use the PDF page of that (part of the earlier post) as the contact info to get permission from the original eBay poster. Possibly by including that PDF you are properly crediting the original poster per your national laws? Copy write laws can be such a mess from country to country..... That locomotive frame sure gives one an idea or two on how to make a similar durable frame for a vintage steamer model in need of a chassis. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22670	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?

Attachments : image-22670.jpg Hi all, I was at the nice little Franklin, New Jersey show this morning and picked up this interesting reefer ($2). The sides are of white card with professionally printed road name and door detail. The car is plainly built with a milled wood round roof, cast white metal refer hatches/platforms with plain wood ends and early Varney rigid trucks. The road name, "Murray Hill Short Line" seemed somewhat familiar to me. Could that be famous author and model railroader Paul Mallory's original line? The "PL" of the road number, "PL 30381" could be the two letter abbreviation for "Paul." Murray Hill is in the area of New Jersey where Mallery was located and the road's slogan "Serving Metropolitan New York" seems to reflect his use of "metropolitan" in later model railroad organizations that he was involved in. Can anyone confirm or share information as to who the Murray Hill Short Line's brass hat was? Thanks! W. Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22671	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

On 05/05/14 1:51, Mike Bauers wrote: > I'm just being cautious. > > I've been in too many copywrite disagreements of confusion over the years. This time I was asked from someone in New Zealand if he could post the images. > > Not knowing the rules on this as changed for today from that unstable D.C , where the rules and laws change every week; there's no way I could know what the laws of New Zealand are about this. > > One yahoo list I'm in did a purge of everything that did not have attached permissions. While some others have really harsh debates about even sharing an image off list between members. It's so very confusing. > > So I can only suggest and hope for the best. > > Mike Bauers Despite what the grey areas of the law may say, if you put something on the net, it is in the public vein, and anyone can do just about anything with it, and it's simply not worth the cost and effort of persuing if you don't like it.. Simply - if you don't like that idea, don't post stuff.. I had some of my designs on my former website stolen and used for coffee mug decoration. I could identify them positively. I complained to ebay, and actually had a pink ring me to discuss. I/we decided that it simply wasn't worth persuing.. I don't think the mugs sold well, and I haven't seen them since.. It was me that wanted to post the loco pictures on another group to try for an ID of the loco - in fact I posted them on two groups. Both are 'closed' ie private groups which require approval to join. I'll bet you can't locate the pictures! ATB from NZ.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22672	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

I have no problems with the images being posted. I just don't want anyone to get into trouble because of it, when I don't know what the law is these days. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On May 4, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Doug Harris <digbee@...> wrote: > On 05/05/14 1:51, Mike Bauers wrote: >> I'm just being cautious. >> >> I've been in too many copywrite disagreements of confusion over the years. This time I was asked from someone in New Zealand if he could post the images. >> >> Not knowing the rules on this as changed for today from that unstable D.C , where the rules and laws change every week; there's no way I could know what the laws of New Zealand are about this. >> >> One yahoo list I'm in did a purge of everything that did not have attached permissions. While some others have really harsh debates about even sharing an image off list between members. It's so very confusing. >> >> So I can only suggest and hope for the best. >> >> Mike Bauers > > Despite what the grey areas of the law may say, if you put something on > the net, it is in the public vein, and anyone can do just about anything > with it, and it's simply not worth the cost and effort of persuing if > you don't like it.. Simply - if you don't like that idea, don't post > stuff.. > > I had some of my designs on my former website stolen and used for coffee > mug decoration. I could identify them positively. I complained to ebay, > and actually had a pink ring me to discuss. I/we decided that it simply > wasn't worth persuing.. I don't think the mugs sold well, and I haven't > seen them since.. > > It was me that wanted to post the loco pictures on another group to try > for an ID of the loco - in fact I posted them on two groups. Both are > 'closed' ie private groups which require approval to join. I'll bet you > can't locate the pictures! > > ATB from NZ.. > > -- > Doug Harris > Auckland, New Zealand >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22673	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

On 05/05/14 13:29, Mike Bauers wrote: > I have no problems with the images being posted. > > I just don't want anyone to get into trouble because of it, when I don't know what the law is these days. This is an extremely widespread practice, these days, Mike. Don't fret it.. I use youtube quite a bit, too, and I'd say about 75% of the stuff on there is bootleg.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22674	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

Good to hear Doug, I'm going to attach something I found when I went back for the TI model shots. I think you'll really enjoy it. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On May 4, 2014, at 8:37 PM, Doug Harris <digbee@...> wrote: On 05/05/14 13:29, Mike Bauers wrote: I have no problems with the images being posted. I just don't want anyone to get into trouble because of it, when I don't know what the law is these days. This is an extremely widespread practice, these days, Mike. Don't fret it.. I use youtube quite a bit, too, and I'd say about 75% of the stuff on  there is bootleg..

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22675	From: david_helber	Date: 5/4/2014
Subject: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization

Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Troubleshooting I'm trying to get an Athearn RDC running - the first Hi-F 4-axle drive I've worked with in decades - and it isn't going well.  It's an open-frame motor old enough to have the wires, not the contact strip - I'm guessing early '60s vintage. I replaced the rubber bands with the oft-recommended Goody hair bands from Wal-Mart and oiled journals, shaft supports and motor bearings. I also cleaned out between commutator segments, and added a bit of rubber cement in the loose pieces of tubing that join the driveshafts to the motor shafts. The brushes appear to be long enough. I can start it from cold, and by turning the throttle quite high, it will make one or two circuits of a small oval of track. After that, it slows down, the motor gets quite hot, and seems to lose power, so that even full throttle will not keep the car moving. I'll take it apart again and polish all the electrical connections, but I'm guessing this is just a motor magnet that has weakened over the last 50 years. Has anyone successfully replaced these old Athearn magnets with neodymium or other rare-earth magnets? Is there a particular magnet that I can order and be assured that it fits and works well here - or is it just going to be trial-and-error? The connecting tubing on the shafts is hardened to the point that it comes fairly easily off the motor shaft. Could lack of flexibility in the tubing joints be causing the problem? I need to replace them anyway - is there some standard type of tubing that I should use? Does anyone have any other suggestions that might cure the problem?  -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22676	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

On 04/05/14 13:13, Doug Harris wrote: > On 04/05/14 7:03, Mike Bauers wrote: >> This missed offering on eBay was a mix of commercial and either >> Japanese or bench-built locomotive. The construction caught my eye >> with its heavy bar frame that would need a very broad curve to >> operate on. I know the perfect club for that. Hello Mike. First reply in from a friend in The Netherlands: > Hello Doug, > > To me this looks like a PRR T1 loco made from a Bowser kit; they are > still available I assume: http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/t1/t1.htm > http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/t1/t1.htm Years ago I thought about > ordering one, but never did. Broadway Ltd now makes an "affordable" > h0 T1 which is looking and running good. > Regards Fred I shortened the link to find Bowser, and got: http://ww38.bowsertrains.com/ but didn't follow it up any further. Cheers.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22677	From: oljoe	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization

model airplane fuel line tubing works well for the drive shaft connections Joe

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22678	From: vancampbell64	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization

Hello there, Yes, I've has similar issues with the Hi-F motors. I too have done the same things to the ones that have the very same issues as you describe. I am not, and have never claimed to be, an expert electrician or one of these guys that can use ohm meters and such to diagnose issues with these old motors. I can tell you that, through the process of elimination, that I believe that the armatures of the offending motors are most likely the culprit. Thankfully, these old motors are plentiful, and swapping out armatures has netted me a good running motor. I have 120+ of these Hi-F models, and have to do this to maybe 10 of them. I've also had much better luck with the later motors that have the taller armature stack, as I've found that about half of the earlier ones I've run into have the issue you describe. If it were my RDC, I'd just swap out the motor with a good one. Van.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22679	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

Mike, It sounds like you too have suffered through a case of the "inmates running the asylum" (I think I am a member of that group too) so I fully understand your caution. It is always frightening when people with little knowledge of the field start talking about copyright law. But your caution is fully understandable -- I just wanted people, especially on this group where photos from eBay and old magazines are often our only source of information -- that posting said photos is perfectly legal providing they are not shared outside this structured group. It gets into the whole "Fair Use" section of the law -- which is very supportive of research and knowledge sharing -- which is what our group is about.  Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <mwbauers55@...> wrote : I'm just being cautious. I've been in too many copywrite disagreements of confusion over the years. This time I was asked from someone in New Zealand if he could post the images.   Not knowing the rules on this as changed for today from that unstable D.C , where the rules and laws change every week; there's no way I could know what the laws of New Zealand are about this.  One yahoo list I'm in did a purge of everything that did not have attached permissions. While some others have really harsh debates about even sharing an image off list between members. It's so very confusing. So I can only suggest and hope for the best. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22680	From: David J. Starr	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization

I put neodymium super magnets into an old brass steamer.  It really works, the steamer went from barely able to move and motor running scary hot, to a decent running model.  The neodymium magnets come in various sizes and shapes. I used a stack of 3/8 inch square by 1/8 inch thick magnets to replace a squarish ancient Alnico magnet.  You can find them in other sizes, round, and 7/16 inch and 1/2 inch square.  Fill in any gap with bits of soft iron or mild steel so the magnetic flux can flow inside magnetic materials all the way round from one side of the armature to the other.  If you get the new magnets installed backward (north and south poles swapped) the motor will run backward.  I used an ordinary magnetic compass to determine north and south and get them in the right way round.    The armature is OK unless one winding is open or shorted.  An ohmmeter will sort that out.  All three windings ought to have about the same resistance.  If one winding is low, compared to the other two, it's shorted, or at least has shorted turns.  If one reads open, inspect it carefully.  With luck, one end has come loose and can be solder back onto the commutator.    For shorts or irrepairable opens, you can rewind the entire armature.  I used to do this long time ago when I was into racing slot cars.  It's straight forward and requires no special tools.  Or find a junker at a train show and replace the armature. David J. Starr Blog:  http://www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com On 5/5/2014 1:58 AM, dnhelber@... wrote: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Troubleshooting I'm trying to get an Athearn RDC running - the first Hi-F 4-axle drive I've worked with in decades - and it isn't going well.  It's an open-frame motor old enough to have the wires, not the contact strip - I'm guessing early '60s vintage. I replaced the rubber bands with the oft-recommended Goody hair bands from Wal-Mart and oiled journals, shaft supports and motor bearings. I also cleaned out between commutator segments, and added a bit of rubber cement in the loose pieces of tubing that join the driveshafts to the motor shafts. The brushes appear to be long enough. I can start it from cold, and by turning the throttle quite high, it will make one or two circuits of a small oval of track. After that, it slows down, the motor gets quite hot, and seems to lose power, so that even full throttle will not keep the car moving. I'll take it apart again and polish all the electrical connections, but I'm guessing this is just a motor magnet that has weakened over the last 50 years. Has anyone successfully replaced these old Athearn magnets with neodymium or other rare-earth magnets? Is there a particular magnet that I can order and be assured that it fits and works well here - or is it just going to be trial-and-error? The connecting tubing on the shafts is hardened to the point that it comes fairly easily off the motor shaft. Could lack of flexibility in the tubing joints be causing the problem? I need to replace them anyway - is there some standard type of tubing that I should use? Does anyone have any other suggestions that might cure the problem?  -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22681	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

Bowser made the later T1 with it's reduced streamlining of the mass production rum of the T1's. Perhaps I should call the Bowser a T1a ? This model is of the first version of the T1 with its more fluid streamlining of the pilot area. I think that was rolled out for one of the major RR fairs like the one that was done in Chicago. As such, the first prototype styling was only built at something between one and a very few machines. This first version is a bit more of an eye-catcher. I think the shark nose on the first version is longer than the following production version making it look more futuristic than the later production. Looking at the two versions, you will quickly see that it's easier to climb in the later version and that the hinged nose as well as the enclosed pilot deck mounted equipment is easier to access on the later production version. I believe that is why the changes were made. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone > On May 5, 2014, at 4:15 AM, Doug Harris <digbee@...> wrote: > >> On 04/05/14 13:13, Doug Harris wrote: >>> On 04/05/14 7:03, Mike Bauers wrote: >>> This missed offering on eBay was a mix of commercial and either >>> Japanese or bench-built locomotive. The construction caught my eye >>> with its heavy bar frame that would need a very broad curve to >>> operate on. I know the perfect club for that. > > Hello Mike. > > First reply in from a friend in The Netherlands: > >> Hello Doug, >> >> To me this looks like a PRR T1 loco made from a Bowser kit; they are >> still available I assume: http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/t1/t1.htm >> http://bowser-trains.com/holocos/t1/t1.htm Years ago I thought about >> ordering one, but never did. Broadway Ltd now makes an "affordable" >> h0 T1 which is looking and running good. >> Regards Fred > > I shortened the link to find Bowser, and got: > > http://ww38.bowsertrains.com/ > > but didn't follow it up any further. > > Cheers.. > > -- > Doug Harris > Auckland, New Zealand > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22682	From: roadwarriorbob	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: What manufacturer made couplers like this?

Attachments : IMG_2054.jpg Dear friends, I hate to impose, but I'm trying to catalog my 50-year train collection, and I'm having trouble identifying the manufacturer of this car (see attached photo). I think the coupler is unique to one manufacturer, but I don't remember which one. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Robert Randolph Gaithersburg, MD

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22683	From: Dale Weaver	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Tyco sets

Hi Don, Thank you so much for the fast reply and acceptance of me to post messages here. Both my brother and my dad have died and I have inherited 2 Tyco sets - one from 1954 (or maybe 1953? with some Mantua info) and one from 1976 (Spirit of 76). I have track, electronics, cars, accessories, etc., am a very motivated seller and live in Morgantown, West Virginia. My interest is to find someone who will use and enjoy it. Before trying to take pictures and placing it all on Ebay - especially since I do not have a smart phone - I have been referred to you by Larry Stevenson of HO Seeker for ideas and potential interest. My desire is to sell it all to someone who can come by and check it out before taking it with them. Running a small business will most likely preclude me from having the time to effectively and efficiently pack it all up and ship it somewhere. Any info you can provide is sincerely appreciated. My best regards, Dale Weaver c: 304-777-0770 -----Original Message----- From: vintageHO Moderator [mailto:vintageHO-owner@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 3:32 PM To: Dale.Weaver@... Subject: File - Welcome Welcome to Vintage HO Operators. This is the list for those who fondly remember the HO of the 1940's, 50's and 60's who still love AND run those great HO models that were the foundation of the world's greatest hobby. Do you have Athearn metal cars on your layout? Varney? HObbyline? Herkimer or Kasiner streamliners? (or those great Samson magnesium cars?) I think you'll enjoy it here. "On Topic" is anything from the early 1960's and older, "Off topic" is China, Bachmann (except Plasticville) DCC etc. Sale or trade notices are fine, as long as it's "vintage" HO. The files, links, calendar and photos sections on the web page are there for you to use. Share with us your memories of the "way it used to be", and the pieces you have, love and run to help keep the memory alive. Don moderator vintageHO@yahoogroups.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3722/6940 - Release Date: 05/04/14

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22684	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

> Not knowing the rules on this as changed for today from that unstable > D.C , where the rules and laws change every week; there's no way I > could know what the laws of New Zealand are about this. > One yahoo list I'm in did a purge of everything that did not have > attached permissions. While some others have really harsh debates > about even sharing an image off list between members. It's so very > confusing. > Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone Hi Mike. I don't see that NZ copyright laws would be involved in this in any way - it would be those of the US and A. I asked merely to appear courteous, and as a newbie to this group, as I planned to use the images anyway.. :-)) -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22685	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization

On 06/05/14 4:24, David J. Starr wrote: > I put neodymium super magnets into an old brass steamer. > > If you get the new magnets installed backward > (north and south poles swapped) the motor will run backward. I used an > ordinary magnetic compass to determine north and south and get them in > the right way round. David, should the loco run the wrong way, simply turn the magnets 180 degrees, which will reverse the polarity, and remove the problem.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22686	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Tyco sets

On 06/05/14 7:43, Dale Weaver wrote: > Hi Don, > Both my brother and my dad have died and I have inherited 2 Tyco sets - one > from 1954 (or maybe 1953? with some Mantua info) and one from 1976 (Spirit > of 76). > Before trying to take pictures and placing it all on Ebay - especially since > I do not have a smart phone - I have been referred to you by Larry Stevenson > of HO Seeker for ideas and potential interest. > Any info you can provide is sincerely appreciated. Dale *Don't try to photograph using a cellphone - you simply cannot get the quality required to make a good impression on ebay. *Make sure the light is coming over your shoulder (the old Kodak advice) from a past generation. *Use a conventional camera - even a little point-and-shoot is usually OK - don't forget to set it on 'Close-up' if necessary - RTFM or if the pictures are blurred by being too close. *Hold the camera steady while you squeeze the button. *TURN ON THE FLASH! I monitor around 1,000 ebay auctions a day, and the worst are those with back lighting and no fill, where you cannot see details in the subject - it's all black.. I quickly lose interest in these, and a sale could be lost.. Good Selling! -- Doug Harris (60 years in pro photography..) Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22687	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Tyco sets

The newer phones have 8-12 megapixel cameras and take great pictures if you also use good lighting. Not all phones are like that, but at least some like that, work great. This seems to be one of them. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone > On May 6, 2014, at 12:27 AM, Doug Harris <digbee@...> wrote: > >> On 06/05/14 7:43, Dale Weaver wrote: >> Hi Don, > >> Both my brother and my dad have died and I have inherited 2 Tyco sets - one >> from 1954 (or maybe 1953? with some Mantua info) and one from 1976 (Spirit >> of 76). > >> Before trying to take pictures and placing it all on Ebay - especially since >> I do not have a smart phone - I have been referred to you by Larry Stevenson >> of HO Seeker for ideas and potential interest. > >> Any info you can provide is sincerely appreciated. > > Dale > > *Don't try to photograph using a cellphone - you simply cannot get the > quality required to make a good impression on ebay. > > *Make sure the light is coming over your shoulder (the old Kodak advice) > from a past generation. > > *Use a conventional camera - even a little point-and-shoot is usually OK > - don't forget to set it on 'Close-up' if necessary - RTFM or if the > pictures are blurred by being too close. > > *Hold the camera steady while you squeeze the button. > > *TURN ON THE FLASH! > > I monitor around 1,000 ebay auctions a day, and the worst are those with > back lighting and no fill, where you cannot see details in the subject - > it's all black.. I quickly lose interest in these, and a sale could be > lost.. > > Good Selling! >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22688	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/5/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

I think you're one of the All-Right guys. I do appreciate you asking. In a like vein, I've taken about 20,000 shots with my phones and a good number of those are screen saves from the Internet. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On May 6, 2014, at 12:13 AM, Doug Harris <digbee@...> wrote: >> Not knowing the rules on this as changed for today from that unstable >> D.C , where the rules and laws change every week; there's no way I >> could know what the laws of New Zealand are about this. > >> One yahoo list I'm in did a purge of everything that did not have >> attached permissions. While some others have really harsh debates >> about even sharing an image off list between members. It's so very >> confusing. > >> Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone > > Hi Mike. > > I don't see that NZ copyright laws would be involved in this in any way > - it would be those of the US and A. > > I asked merely to appear courteous, and as a newbie to this group, as I > planned to use the images anyway.. :-)) > > -- > Doug Harris > Auckland, New Zealand > > > > ------------------------------------

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22689	From: Ola Sjöblom	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: What manufacturer made couplers like this? [1 Attachment]

That looks like a Baker coupler to me.   Ola   From: rrandolph@... Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 5:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] What manufacturer made couplers like this? [1 Attachment]   Dear friends, I hate to impose, but I'm trying to catalog my 50-year train collection, and I'm having trouble identifying the manufacturer of this car (see attached photo). I think the coupler is unique to one manufacturer, but I don't remember which one. Can anybody help? Thanks in advance. Robert Randolph Gaithersburg, MD

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22690	From: Robert Randolph	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: What manufacturer made couplers like this?

Hi Ola, I've looked up Baker couplers, and can see that you're undoubtedly right. Thanks! So far so good. I hoped that identifying the coupler would tell me who made the car, but I now see that it's not that simple. The car seems to have been from a craftsman-type kit, made of wood with cast metal and wire detail parts. So now the question is, who made kits like that and included G.S.V.X. 1003? Evidently Red Ball did (see http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gerber-Baby-Food-1003-lightly-weathered-HO-printed-reefer-sides-/121335364605). So I wonder whether my car might be Red Ball. What do you think? Thanks. Robert Randolph Gaithersburg, MD On 5/5/2014 11:39 PM, Ola Sjöblom wrote: > That looks like a Baker coupler to me. Ola *From:* > rrandolph@... <mailto:rrandolph@...> *Sent:* Monday, May > 05, 2014 5:31 PM *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> *Subject:* [vintageHO] What > manufacturer made couplers like this? [1 Attachment] > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22691	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?

Jay, That's a neat vintage piece that looks like it could even date from the 30's. I grew up in Murray Hill and remember Paul's basement layout well, even if I was only 6 or so when I saw it. I have an article about him from 1999 that I just referred to, and the name of his pike was the Hudson, Delaware & Ohio. Oddly enough prior to 1952 it was called the Great Northwestern, so my guess is this reefer wasn't his. The name of the short line probably refers to the Manhattan neighborhood. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22692	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?

Hi Nelson, I hadn't even thought of the Murray Hill neighborhood in Manhattan. Whoever the "Brass Hat" was, I hope he registered his road name with the NMRA or Railroad Model Craftsmen and I or someone will eventually find or recognize it. Thanks for the response and for identification of the two road names that were used. I never got a chance to see the layout in Mallory's basement – in the mid-1960s my dad took me there to see it during one of their scheduled shows, but we got lost and eventual arrived too late in the day! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22693	From: jay matz	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: What manufacturer made couplers like this?

Robert International Models from Japan . I have a model simmer to that. Jay On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:49 AM, Robert Randolph <rrandolph@...> wrote:   Hi Ola, I've looked up Baker couplers, and can see that you're undoubtedly right. Thanks! So far so good. I hoped that identifying the coupler would tell me who made the car, but I now see that it's not that simple. The car seems to have been from a craftsman-type kit, made of wood with cast metal and wire detail parts. So now the question is, who made kits like that and included G.S.V.X. 1003? Evidently Red Ball did (see http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gerber-Baby-Food-1003-lightly-weathered-HO-printed-reefer-sides-/121335364605). So I wonder whether my car might be Red Ball. What do you think? Thanks. Robert Randolph Gaithersburg, MD On 5/5/2014 11:39 PM, Ola Sjöblom wrote: > That looks like a Baker coupler to me. Ola *From:* > rrandolph@... <mailto:rrandolph@...> *Sent:* Monday, May > 05, 2014 5:31 PM *To:* vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> *Subject:* [vintageHO] What > manufacturer made couplers like this? [1 Attachment] > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22694	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization

Or switch the wires. Walter Anguilla On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 1:16 AM, Doug Harris <digbee@...> wrote:   On 06/05/14 4:24, David J. Starr wrote: > I put neodymium super magnets into an old brass steamer. > > If you get the new magnets installed backward > (north and south poles swapped) the motor will run backward. I used an > ordinary magnetic compass to determine north and south and get them in > the right way round. David, should the loco run the wrong way, simply turn the magnets 180 degrees, which will reverse the polarity, and remove the problem.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22695	From: Brad Smith	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Old Hi-F Repair/Rebuild/Remagnetization

Or reverse the rubber bands.  Brad Smith Sent from Brad's iPod On May 6, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...> wrote:   Or switch the wires. Walter Anguilla On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 1:16 AM, Doug Harris <digbee@...> wrote:   On 06/05/14 4:24, David J. Starr wrote: > I put neodymium super magnets into an old brass steamer. > > If you get the new magnets installed backward > (north and south poles swapped) the motor will run backward. I used an > ordinary magnetic compass to determine north and south and get them in > the right way round. David, should the loco run the wrong way, simply turn the magnets 180 degrees, which will reverse the polarity, and remove the problem.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22696	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Early T1 model, Was Re: Vintage Diesel

I did another viewing of those images after I stumbled upon the original T1 drawings in a pre-war MR in the digital collection. The tapered nose on the model is exaggeratedly longer than the real thing. The boiler, even on the very streamlined lokie, is a round profile instead of the inverted 'U' as some other streamlined lokies were. It struck me that the nose could be shaped from a round dowel of the right diameter and then the rest of the engine built around that. I'm tempted to put to use a smallish belt-sander I bought recently and cut and shape a boiler for that streamliner as well as the streamlined front end. It may be the only way I get such a model. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On May 3, 2014, at 8:13 PM, Doug Harris wrote: > On 04/05/14 7:03, Mike Bauers wrote: >> This missed offering on eBay was a mix of commercial and either >> Japanese or >> bench-built locomotive. The construction caught my eye with its >> heavy bar frame >> that would need a very broad curve to operate on. I know the >> perfect club for that. >> >> I think the engine body was sand-cast brass/bronze. The tender body >> seems to be >> cast aluminum. >> >> What a mystery locomotive......... > > Hello Mike. > > A most interesting early loco. I haven't seen the brass/aluminium > combo > before. > > I'm also interested in early Seki (prewar O-gauge (if I'm allowed to > say > those words on this group) and Sakai (postwar cast and tinplate HO, > S and O) > > I've also started collecting Japanese brass HO for my planned > Virginian > Railway layout. > > Currently I have 4 (I kid you not) Japanese KMT 2-10-10-2's and > various > other items of Korean origin. > > If any members have interests diverging as far as the enigmatic Sakai > and Seki and other similar ranges, you would be most welcome to join > our > group - I'm moderator: > > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Sakai_SekiToyTrainGroup/info > > (shameless plug..) > > Mike, may I have permission to post your fine pictures on our group's > yahoo site? They will be of interest to us, and we may even be able to > offer some information. > > -- > Doug Harris > Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22697	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: What manufacturer made couplers like this?

Yes, most likely IM’s. The loop has an offset to the left which is opposite of the offset to the right that Tenshodo used. Or maybe they are the same with the loop installed downside up? Anyway they are a Japanese knockoff of the Baker coupler which does not have an offset to the loop.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jay matz Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 10:42 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] What manufacturer made couplers like this?     Robert International Models from Japan . I have a model simmer to that. Jay   On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 9:49 AM, Robert Randolph <rrandolph@...> wrote:   Hi Ola, I've looked up Baker couplers, and can see that you're undoubtedly right. Thanks! So far so good. I hoped that identifying the coupler would tell me who made the car, but I now see that it's not that simple. The car seems to have been from a craftsman-type kit, made of wood with cast metal and wire detail parts. So now the question is, who made kits like that and included G.S.V.X. 1003? Evidently Red Ball did (see http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gerber-Baby-Food-1003-lightly-weathered-HO-printed-reefer-sides-/121335364605). So I wonder whether my car might be Red Ball. What do you think? Thanks. Robert Randolph Gaithersburg, MD On 5/5/2014 11:39 PM, Ola Sjöblom wrote: > That looks like a Baker coupler to me. Ola *From:* >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22698	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Diesel

Mike, Never found that auction. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22699	From: mwbauers	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO

Did you look in the completed auctions ??

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22700	From: mwbauers	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO

Repeated just in case... Got no notice that it was accepted. Did you look in the completed auctions ?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22701	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/6/2014
Subject: Re: Tyco sets

As an aside to this. While it might apply to this discussion, frankly I'm not sure.... I recently discovered the 'slo-mo' video option on my iPhone 5s. In every trial I've made with it, it gives me crystal clear individual digital frames at 120 frames a second, including somewhat small objects held in my hand. Exclusions are that it seems the first second and the last second of recording are at normal video speeds. I can walk around an object at a casual pace and get a huge number of clear shots in a few seconds. I don't know what other phones can do this, and more conventional cameras that I've looked only use 60-fps for slow motion. It may be a quite useful feature if your phone has the like. I took some low light outdoor shots near twilight and the camera captured in much better detail than I seemed to see by eye. Give the slow motion video option of your phone a try and see if you get similar quality image results. If so, you'll be able to walk around or slowly sweep around an object and later select individual frames for your snapshots. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone > On May 6, 2014, at 12:27 AM, Doug Harris <digbee@...> wrote: > >> On 06/05/14 7:43, Dale Weaver wrote: >> Hi Don, > >> Both my brother and my dad have died and I have inherited 2 Tyco sets - one >> from 1954 (or maybe 1953? with some Mantua info) and one from 1976 (Spirit >> of 76). > >> Before trying to take pictures and placing it all on Ebay - especially since >> I do not have a smart phone - I have been referred to you by Larry Stevenson >> of HO Seeker for ideas and potential interest. > >> Any info you can provide is sincerely appreciated. > > Dale > > *Don't try to photograph using a cellphone - you simply cannot get the > quality required to make a good impression on ebay. > > *Make sure the light is coming over your shoulder (the old Kodak advice) > from a past generation. > > *Use a conventional camera - even a little point-and-shoot is usually OK > - don't forget to set it on 'Close-up' if necessary - RTFM or if the > pictures are blurred by being too close. > > *Hold the camera steady while you squeeze the button. > > *TURN ON THE FLASH! > > I monitor around 1,000 ebay auctions a day, and the worst are those with > back lighting and no fill, where you cannot see details in the subject - > it's all black.. I quickly lose interest in these, and a sale could be > lost.. > > Good Selling! > > -- > Doug Harris (60 years in pro photography..) > Auckland, New Zealand >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22702	From: david_helber	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Mantua Booster with Sloped Tanks?

Attachments : Booster-instruc-1-slope.o.gif Has anyone seen this slope-tank style of Mantua's Booster? Was it produced, or did this early instruction sheet show a factory prototype that was changed to the familiar square tank before actual production began? -- D

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22703	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Re: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?

Jay, good luck finding that orphaned reefer's home road. The article on Paul Mallery is a pdf file, so I can email it to you if you're interested. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22704	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Re: vintageHO

Yes, Mike.  That was the first place. My guess, is that I don’t know the  proper search words. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22705	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Re: Tyco sets

Lordy Doug, How can you do that (1,000).  It occurs to me that I ought to go be going to you prior to searching. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22706	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/7/2014
Subject: Re: Murray Hill Short Line reefer?

Hi Nelson, Thank you, I would appreciate reading it! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22707	From: seekingho	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: The HOseeker Website's Future

I thought I would start a discussion about something I have been thinking about lately.  Here is my concern and question I have for the members: Around ten years I became a member of this Vintage HO Yahoo Group.  For the members that don't know me I am the Owner and Web Master of the HOseeker Website.  After being a member here for a while I came up with the idea to build the HO Reference and Resource website because there were so many requests for instructions and the famous what is this questions. Over those years I have received help from Jim Heckard, Gerald Eckl, Bob O'Brian, Russ Sheil, Shaygetz and many, many more wonderful people.  There are far too many to list that have taken their valuable time to send scans, pictures, and actual documents  to make the HOseeker Website one of the best on the web for finding train information.  At least that is my personal opinion, I am bias.  I am the only one who keeps the site running and updated and there lies the problem. While building the site I have experienced quite a few Tragic Events which has made me real aware of my own mortality. I am getting up in age and need to make some important decisions about the future of the website.  I hate to see all the effort to make the site a great place to visit be lost to history.  My question to the members of this group is:   What should become of the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving?  What should I do to save the Site for future generations.  I would like to ask these question here because the members of this group use the site.  Just a note Last year  from Jan 1 to Dec 31 the HOseeker website had one and half million pictures viewed by it's user.  So that makes me think that someone is using the site and the effort of everyone involved was worth it.. Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22708	From: willard seehorn	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

I think that the site is valuable and should be maintained. Carl Arendt had a small (roughly 4x6 feet) or micro (4 square feet, tho at least one is 1 foot square) layout site: www.carendt.com/ . When Carl died in 2011 friends stepped in to maintain and operate the site as a memorial to him. Perhaps something like this could be worked out for HOseeker. Willard -----Original Message----- From: seekingho@... Sent: May 8, 2014 8:41 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] The HOseeker Website's Future I thought I would start a discussion about something I have been thinking about lately.  Here is my concern and question I have for the members: Around ten years I became a member of this Vintage HO Yahoo Group.  For the members that don't know me I am the Owner and Web Master of the HOseeker Website.  After being a member here for a while I came up with the idea to build the HO Reference and Resource website because there were so many requests for instructions and the famous what is this questions. Over those years I have received help from Jim Heckard, Gerald Eckl, Bob O'Brian, Russ Sheil, Shaygetz and many, many more wonderful people.  There are far too many to list that have taken their valuable time to send scans, pictures, and actual documents  to make the HOseeker Website one of the best on the web for finding train information.  At least that is my personal opinion, I am bias.  I am the only one who keeps the site running and updated and there lies the problem. While building the site I have experienced quite a few Tragic Events which has made me real aware of my own mortality. I am getting up in age and need to make some important decisions about the future of the website.  I hate to see all the effort to make the site a great place to visit be lost to history.  My question to the members of this group is:   What should become of the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving?  What should I do to save the Site for future generations.  I would like to ask these question here because the members of this group use the site.  Just a note Last year  from Jan 1 to Dec 31 the HOseeker website had one and half million pictures viewed by it's user.  So that makes me think that someone is using the site and the effort of everyone involved was worth it.. Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22709	From: luvprr2003	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Absolutely invaluable! Must have!   In a message dated 5/8/2014 11:36:02 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, wseehorn@... writes: I think that the site is valuable and should be maintained. Carl Arendt had a small (roughly 4x6 feet) or micro (4 square feet, tho at least one is 1 foot square) layout site: www.carendt.com/ . When Carl died in 2011 friends stepped in to maintain and operate the site as a memorial to him. Perhaps something like this could be worked out for HOseeker. Willard -----Original Message----- From: seekingho@... Sent: May 8, 2014 8:41 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] The HOseeker Website's Future I thought I would start a discussion about something I have been thinking about lately.  Here is my concern and question I have for the members: Around ten years I became a member of this Vintage HO Yahoo Group.  For the members that don't know me I am the Owner and Web Master of the HOseeker Website.  After being a member here for a while I came up with the idea to build the HO Reference and Resource website because there were so many requests for instructions and the famous what is this questions. Over those years I have received help from Jim Heckard, Gerald Eckl, Bob O'Brian, Russ Sheil, Shaygetz an d many, many more wonderful people.  There are far too many to list that have taken their valuable time to send scans, pictures, and actual documents  to make the HOseeker Website one of the best on the web for finding train information.  At least that is my personal opinion, I am bias.  I am the only one who keeps the site running and updated and there lies the problem. While building the site I have experienced quite a few Tragic Events which has made me real aware of my own mortality. I am getting up in age and need to make some important decisions about the future of the website.  I hate to see all the effort to make the site a great place to visit be lost to history.  My question to the members of this group is:   What should become of the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving?  What should I do to save the Site for future generations.  I would li ke to ask these question here because the members of this group use the site.  Just a note Last year  from Jan 1 to Dec 31 the HOseeker website had one and half million pictures viewed by it's user.  So that makes me think that someone is using the site and the effort of everyone involved was worth it.. Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22710	From: Larry	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

HO Seeker is an irreplaceable tool to so many it would be a great loss to this community of modelers if it disappeared. We have lost many resources over the years as life situations have changed and others have passed. Please consider inviting a select trusted few to help maintain and keep it going into the future. It would be appreciated by many and would be a great legacy to leave your name upon, in my humble opinion. Larry Miller III On Thursday, May 8, 2014 7:41 AM, "seekingho@..." <seekingho@...> wrote: I thought I would start a discussion about something I have been thinking about lately.  Here is my concern and question I have for the members: Around ten years I became a member of this Vintage HO Yahoo Group.  For the members that don't know me I am the Owner and Web Master of the HOseeker Website.  After being a member here for a while I came up with the idea to build the HO Reference and Resource website because there were so many requests for instructions and the famous what is this questions. Over those years I have received help from Jim Heckard, Gerald Eckl, Bob O'Brian, Russ Sheil, Shaygetz and many, many more wonderful people.  There are far too many to list that have taken their valuable time to send scans, pictures, and actual documents  to make the HOseeker Website one of the best on the web for finding train information.  At least that is my personal opinion, I am bias.  I am the only one who keeps the site running and updated and there lies the problem. While building the site I have experienced quite a few Tragic Events which has made me real aware of my own mortality. I am getting up in age and need to make some important decisions about the future of the website.  I hate to see all the effort to make the site a great place to visit be lost to history.  My question to the members of this group is:   What should become of the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving?  What should I do to save the Site for future generations.  I would like to ask these question here because the members of this group use the site.  Just a note Last year  from Jan 1 to Dec 31 the HOseeker website had one and half million pictures viewed by it's user.  So that makes me think that someone is using the site and the effort of everyone involved was worth it.. Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22711	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

A thought - Suggest you get yourself a co-owner or two for the group that could take over were it if needed. A second thought - Is there anyone else out there with the knowledge that might want to volunteer their services? RogerW From: "seekingho@..." <seekingho@...> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 8 May 2014, 13:41 Subject: [vintageHO] The HOseeker Website's Future   I thought I would start a discussion about something I have been thinking about lately.  Here is my concern and question I have for the members: Around ten years I became a member of this Vintage HO Yahoo Group.  For the members that don't know me I am the Owner and Web Master of the HOseeker Website.  After being a member here for a while I came up with the idea to build the HO Reference and Resource website because there were so many requests for instructions and the famous what is this questions. Over those years I have received help from Jim Heckard, Gerald Eckl, Bob O'Brian, Russ Sheil, Shaygetz and many, many more wonderful people.  There are far too many to list that have taken their valuable time to send scans, pictures, and actual documents  to make the HOseeker Website one of the best on the web for finding train information.  At least that is my personal opinion, I am bias.  I am the only one who keeps the site running and updated and there lies the problem. While building the site I have experienced quite a few Tragic Events which has made me real aware of my own mortality. I am getting up in age and need to make some important decisions about the future of the website.  I hate to see all the effort to make the site a great place to visit be lost to history.  My question to the members of this group is:   What should become of the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving?  What should I do to save the Site for future generations.  I would like to ask these question here because the members of this group use the site.  Just a note Last year  from Jan 1 to Dec 31 the HOseeker website had one and half million pictures viewed by it's user.  So that makes me think that someone is using the site and the effort of everyone involved was worth it.. Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22712	From: Dale Smith	Date: 5/8/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

I think HO Seeker is a very valuable resource and should definitely be preserved if at all possible.  It is a one of a kind resource preserving information that is not available elsewhere.  Even though I am 68 and in pretty good health, I have had much the same thoughts as Larry with respect to my own websites, www.gilbertho.org and americanflyerdisplays.org.   One thing I am planning to do is send disk copies of my websites periodically to the TCA librarian, who has indicated a willingness to archive these.  Granted, this won't keep them as accessible as they are now, but at least the information won't be lost.  The problem in finding someone to take over such sites is that it requires someone with both the interest in the subject matter and the skills to edit and manage a website. I am willing to help in any way I can if need be.  My webhosting account gives me 150 gigabytes of hosting space and my two sites, in spite of many high resolution images, take less than 1 gb of space.  I would be happy to provide free hosting space if that ever became needed and assistance if needed. Dale Smith On 5/8/2014 5:41 AM, seekingho@... wrote:   I thought I would start a discussion about something I have been thinking about lately.  Here is my concern and question I have for the members: Around ten years I became a member of this Vintage HO Yahoo Group.  For the members that don't know me I am the Owner and Web Master of the HOseeker Website.  After being a member here for a while I came up with the idea to build the HO Reference and Resource website because there were so many requests for instructions and the famous what is this questions. Over those years I have received help from Jim Heckard, Gerald Eckl, Bob O'Brian, Russ Sheil, Shaygetz and many, many more wonderful people.  There are far too many to list that have taken their valuable time to send scans, pictures, and actual documents  to make the HOseeker Website one of the best on the web for finding train information.  At least that is my personal opinion, I am bias.  I am the only one who keeps the site running and updated and there lies the problem. While building the site I have experienced quite a few Tragic Events which has made me real aware of my own mortality. I am getting up in age and need to make some important decisions about the future of the website.  I hate to see all the effort to make the site a great place to visit be lost to history.  My question to the members of this group is:   What should become of the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving?  What should I do to save the Site for future generations.  I would like to ask these question here because the members of this group use the site.  Just a note Last year  from Jan 1 to Dec 31 the HOseeker website had one and half million pictures viewed by it's user.  So that makes me think that someone is using the site and the effort of everyone involved was worth it.. Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22713	From: fahey0	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

I have used this information a number of times in restoring and maintaining vintage steam engines. Perhaps one of the larger historical societies could lend a hand in maintaining this valuable site.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22714	From: Askerberg	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

What about the NMRA library? Might it be a future host? Al Askerberg

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22715	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: The HOseeker Website's Future

Attachments : Hello Charlie Getz, NMRA President   Below is a email from Larry who runs the HOseeker website.  If you are not familiar with this site, it started out as a depository of instruction sheets and catalog pages for older HO scale model trains.  It now includes many photos examples of older model trains.  It is the go to site if you have a question about an older model train.  But like all sites that one person runs, there will come a time when they can no longer run the site.  The question is what becomes of all of this information.  How to keep it available once the original owner can no longer handle the site.  Is this an area that the NMRA might consider working with?  Please look the site over and offer some suggestion if you can.   The site does have an auction area that I am not expecting to be included in this.  Just what can be placed on a site that should run forever and provide access to all for free.   Thanks for  your review and take care, Charles Higdon NMRA member L02715   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seekingho@... Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2014 8:41 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] The HOseeker Website's Future     I thought I would start a discussion about something I have been thinking about lately.  Here is my concern and question I have for the members: Around ten years I became a member of this Vintage HO Yahoo Group.  For the members that don't know me I am the Owner and Web Master of the HOseeker Website.  After being a member here for a while I came up with the idea to build the HO Reference and Resource website because there were so many requests for instructions and the famous what is this questions. Over those years I have received help from Jim Heckard, Gerald Eckl, Bob O'Brian, Russ Sheil, Shaygetz and many, many more wonderful people.  There are far too many to list that have taken their valuable time to send scans, pictures, and actual documents  to make the HOseeker Website one of the best on the web for finding train information.  At least that is my personal opinion, I am bias.  I am the only one who keeps the site running and updated and there lies the problem. While building the site I have experienced quite a few Tragic Events which has made me real aware of my own mortality. I am getting up in age and need to make some important decisions about the future of the website.  I hate to see all the effort to make the site a great place to visit be lost to history.  My question to the members of this group is:   What should become of the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving?  What should I do to save the Site for future generations.  I would like to ask these question here because the members of this group use the site.    Just a note Last year  from Jan 1 to Dec 31 the HOseeker website had one and half million pictures viewed by it's user.  So that makes me think that someone is using the site and the effort of everyone involved was worth it..   Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22716	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Attachments : I just send an email to the NMRA president, copied this group.  Lets see what he/they suggest.  That would be a good place, as it should be on line for a long time.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, May 9, 2014 10:55 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The HOseeker Website's Future     What about the NMRA library? Might it be a future host? Al Askerberg

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22717	From: maryinvt2	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Larry, If you haven't already, you should post your concern on as many model RR groups as possible and maybe even the model RR magazines to get more responses to your quest. As others have stated, HOseeker is an icon now and used by us all at one time or another. I use it quite often myself. I am not knowledgeable about how ownership of web site works so I can't offer any advice to you as to how to keep your awesome site living on. Perhaps Yahoo or other such places could help in this regard. In my limited vision, the co-owner idea sounds good for the near future but not as an ultimate solution. I can think of several instances where that would eventually fail. I found this link for you and hope it is of some value: http://www.perpetualwebsites.net/keep-website-live-after-your-death.html Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22718	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Attachments : Hello Larry, 1.5 million views is something for sure.  Can you tell me how much memory this file takes?  That might be a useful bit of information.  I was looking over the NMRA site and something like this could be part of the museum section.  This being an electronical display.   Take care, Chuck Higdon   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of seekingho@... Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2014 8:41 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] The HOseeker Website's Future     I thought I would start a discussion about something I have been thinking about lately.  Here is my concern and question I have for the members: Around ten years I became a member of this Vintage HO Yahoo Group.  For the members that don't know me I am the Owner and Web Master of the HOseeker Website.  After being a member here for a while I came up with the idea to build the HO Reference and Resource website because there were so many requests for instructions and the famous what is this questions. Over those years I have received help from Jim Heckard, Gerald Eckl, Bob O'Brian, Russ Sheil, Shaygetz and many, many more wonderful people.  There are far too many to list that have taken their valuable time to send scans, pictures, and actual documents  to make the HOseeker Website one of the best on the web for finding train information.  At least that is my personal opinion, I am bias.  I am the only one who keeps the site running and updated and there lies the problem. While building the site I have experienced quite a few Tragic Events which has made me real aware of my own mortality. I am getting up in age and need to make some important decisions about the future of the website.  I hate to see all the effort to make the site a great place to visit be lost to history.  My question to the members of this group is:   What should become of the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving?  What should I do to save the Site for future generations.  I would like to ask these question here because the members of this group use the site.    Just a note Last year  from Jan 1 to Dec 31 the HOseeker website had one and half million pictures viewed by it's user.  So that makes me think that someone is using the site and the effort of everyone involved was worth it..   Larry http://www.hoseeker.org/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22719	From: Charlie	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Hi   Certainly a must have.   Maybe someone like this would be interested:   http://www.tracksidemodelrailroading.com/   Regards   Charles Harris

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22720	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Just mentioning....

I had mentioned before that I was having an eye operated on. I want to tell those interested that it all went well. I just finished the two weeks at home after the operation. It was a couple of days after the operation that I noticed I had vastly improved vision with that eye. I'm now seeing with a quality that I haven't had since my early youth. About towards Fall, I'll have the other eye done and be a new owner of what should be a pair of 20-30 vision eyes, from what I got from this operation. I've experienced only a minor problem from the operation, and that was because I didn't constantly keep my operated eye fully closed under the bandage for the next 24-hours, and the gauze partly dried it out. However that rather severe pain vanished in the next day or so when the bandage was removed. Other than that, the whole thing was painless. I even managed to completely relax before going into the surgery and stayed asleep during what normally is a stay-awake operation, I feel that worked out well. Now I look forward to having a matching pair of eyes later this year................ A very worthwhile set of eyes. Monday, I return to my factory job. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22721	From: Graeme	Date: 5/9/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

In message <lkfu19+kfsgfl@...>, seekingho@... writes > My question to the members of this group is: What should become of >the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving? What >should I do to save the Site for future generations. Larry, a question close to my own heart, being the owner of a popular site related to 0 gauge. Regarding your site, one name not mention yet is TCA. Now, I realise that TCA is not normally the first name one thinks about in connection with H0, but it is worth mentioning that TCA, through their magazine, are making a big push to embrace the world of H0. TCA also operate the National Toy and Train Museum in Strasburg PA, where the layouts and exhibits include H0 as well as the TCA's more usual S, 0 and wide gauge interests. Whether or not they would consider taking over responsibility for an existing web site, I have no idea, but may be worth an e-mail. http://tcamembers.org/ -- Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22722	From: Richard White	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....

Mike- I'm glad you're well now! -Richard White   To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 18:13:54 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Just mentioning....   I had mentioned before that I was having an eye operated on. I want to tell those interested that it all went well. I just finished the two weeks at home after the operation. It was a couple of days after the operation that I noticed I had vastly improved vision with that eye. I'm now seeing with a quality that I haven't had since my early youth. About towards Fall, I'll have the other eye done and be a new owner of what should be a pair of 20-30 vision eyes, from what I got from this operation. I've experienced only a minor problem from the operation, and that was because I didn't constantly keep my operated eye fully closed under the bandage for the next 24-hours, and the gauze partly dried it out. However that rather severe pain vanished in the next day or so when the bandage was removed. Other than that, the whole thing was painless. I even managed to completely relax before going into the surgery and stayed asleep during what normally is a stay-awake operation, I feel that worked out well. Now I look forward to having a matching pair of eyes later this year................ A very worthwhile set of eyes. Monday, I return to my factory job. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22723	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....

Good to see you’re seeing good.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 6:14 PM To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Just mentioning....     I had mentioned before that I was having an eye operated on. I want to tell those interested that it all went well. I just finished the two weeks at home after the operation. It was a couple of days after the operation that I noticed I had vastly improved vision with that eye. I'm now seeing with a quality that I haven't had since my early youth. About towards Fall, I'll have the other eye done and be a new owner of what should be a pair of 20-30 vision eyes, from what I got from this operation. I've experienced only a minor problem from the operation, and that was because I didn't constantly keep my operated eye fully closed under the bandage for the next 24-hours, and the gauze partly dried it out. However that rather severe pain vanished in the next day or so when the bandage was removed. Other than that, the whole thing was painless. I even managed to completely relax before going into the surgery and stayed asleep during what normally is a stay-awake operation, I feel that worked out well. Now I look forward to having a matching pair of eyes later this year................ A very worthwhile set of eyes. Monday, I return to my factory job. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22724	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....

Attachments : Good to hear you are doing well and seeing better. Take care, Chuck Higdon   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, May 9, 2014 7:14 PM To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Just mentioning....     I had mentioned before that I was having an eye operated on. I want to tell those interested that it all went well. I just finished the two weeks at home after the operation. It was a couple of days after the operation that I noticed I had vastly improved vision with that eye. I'm now seeing with a quality that I haven't had since my early youth. About towards Fall, I'll have the other eye done and be a new owner of what should be a pair of 20-30 vision eyes, from what I got from this operation. I've experienced only a minor problem from the operation, and that was because I didn't constantly keep my operated eye fully closed under the bandage for the next 24-hours, and the gauze partly dried it out. However that rather severe pain vanished in the next day or so when the bandage was removed. Other than that, the whole thing was painless. I even managed to completely relax before going into the surgery and stayed asleep during what normally is a stay-awake operation, I feel that worked out well. Now I look forward to having a matching pair of eyes later this year................ A very worthwhile set of eyes. Monday, I return to my factory job. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22725	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Larry & Graeme, A number of years back I visited TCA museum with a friend who was a member. The TCA's collection of vintage H0 catalogs was impressive. What am I driving at? Well, maybe they would be interested in picking up the HOseeker website. Walter On Sat, May 10, 2014 at 1:52 AM, Graeme yahoo@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   In message <lkfu19+kfsgfl@...>, seekingho@... writes > My question to the members of this group is: What should become of >the HOseeker Website when I am gone? Is the site worth saving? What >should I do to save the Site for future generations. Larry, a question close to my own heart, being the owner of a popular site related to 0 gauge. Regarding your site, one name not mention yet is TCA. Now, I realise that TCA is not normally the first name one thinks about in connection with H0, but it is worth mentioning that TCA, through their magazine, are making a big push to embrace the world of H0. TCA also operate the National Toy and Train Museum in Strasburg PA, where the layouts and exhibits include H0 as well as the TCA's more usual S, 0 and wide gauge interests. Whether or not they would consider taking over responsibility for an existing web site, I have no idea, but may be worth an e-mail. http://tcamembers.org/ -- Graeme, Scotland -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22726	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....

Very Happy for you.  All the best! On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I had mentioned before that I was having an eye operated on. I want to tell those interested that it all went well. I just finished the two weeks at home after the operation. It was a couple of days after the operation that I noticed I had vastly improved vision with that eye. I'm now seeing with a quality that I haven't had since my early youth. About towards Fall, I'll have the other eye done and be a new owner of what should be a pair of 20-30 vision eyes, from what I got from this operation. I've experienced only a minor problem from the operation, and that was because I didn't constantly keep my operated eye fully closed under the bandage for the next 24-hours, and the gauze partly dried it out. However that rather severe pain vanished in the next day or so when the bandage was removed. Other than that, the whole thing was painless. I even managed to completely relax before going into the surgery and stayed asleep during what normally is a stay-awake operation, I feel that worked out well. Now I look forward to having a matching pair of eyes later this year................ A very worthwhile set of eyes. Monday, I return to my factory job. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22727	From: albyrno	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

I like that HO seeker is available to the general public.From a preservation standpoint the NMRA would be a good way to keep site contents intact.My concern is for the modelers who aren't members of NMRA being able to access this info.  Alan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22728	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....

VERY GLAD  to hear this, Mike. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22729	From: dwaite2000	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Not to muddy the waters, but some of you may remember the HOSIG which I believe was a sub group of the NMRA. It's publication was a gold mine of information on early models. When the author decided to move on, no one at the NMRA stepped in to keep it going. For a long time their web site more or less evaded the issue. No idea what the final out come was but as far as I know, the publication died. Dick Waite Topsfield, MA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22730	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....

Mike, I am so very glad to hear about the improvement in your vision.  My vision problems did not turn out so well but I am very thankful that I can still see.  May you have even greater success with the other eye. Happy Railroading...  Grace and Peace... Don Staton in VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, May 9, 2014 7:14 PM To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Just mentioning....     I had mentioned before that I was having an eye operated on. I want to tell those interested that it all went well. I just finished the two weeks at home after the operation. It was a couple of days after the operation that I noticed I had vastly improved vision with that eye. I'm now seeing with a quality that I haven't had since my early youth. About towards Fall, I'll have the other eye done and be a new owner of what should be a pair of 20-30 vision eyes, from what I got from this operation. I've experienced only a minor problem from the operation, and that was because I didn't constantly keep my operated eye fully closed under the bandage for the next 24-hours, and the gauze partly dried it out. However that rather severe pain vanished in the next day or so when the bandage was removed. Other than that, the whole thing was painless. I even managed to completely relax before going into the surgery and stayed asleep during what normally is a stay-awake operation, I feel that worked out well. Now I look forward to having a matching pair of eyes later this year................ A very worthwhile set of eyes. Monday, I return to my factory job. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22731	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Attachments : Hi Alan,   Have you tried to look over their site?  I think much of it is open to all.  While I am a member, I do not remember putting in a membership number or anything.  Could you take a look and report back.  I know at one point I looked at the many layouts linked to the site.     Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2014 6:56 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The HOseeker Website's Future       I like that HO seeker is available to the general public.From a preservation standpoint the NMRA would be a good way to keep site contents intact.My concern is for the modelers who aren't members of NMRA being able to access this info.  Alan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22732	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....

Mike, Glad it us going so well for you. Richard Carbo Sent from my iPad On May 10, 2014, at 7:15 PM, "'Donald R. Staton' chpln1@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Mike, I am so very glad to hear about the improvement in your vision.  My vision problems did not turn out so well but I am very thankful that I can still see.  May you have even greater success with the other eye. Happy Railroading...  Grace and Peace... Don Staton in VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, May 9, 2014 7:14 PM To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Just mentioning....     I had mentioned before that I was having an eye operated on. I want to tell those interested that it all went well. I just finished the two weeks at home after the operation. It was a couple of days after the operation that I noticed I had vastly improved vision with that eye. I'm now seeing with a quality that I haven't had since my early youth. About towards Fall, I'll have the other eye done and be a new owner of what should be a pair of 20-30 vision eyes, from what I got from this operation. I've experienced only a minor problem from the operation, and that was because I didn't constantly keep my operated eye fully closed under the bandage for the next 24-hours, and the gauze partly dried it out. However that rather severe pain vanished in the next day or so when the bandage was removed. Other than that, the whole thing was painless. I even managed to completely relax before going into the surgery and stayed asleep during what normally is a stay-awake operation, I feel that worked out well. Now I look forward to having a matching pair of eyes later this year................ A very worthwhile set of eyes. Monday, I return to my factory job. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22733	From: ohiocanal	Date: 5/10/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

As a stopgap measure, the site could be archived periodically so that the information is safe until other mechanisms are in place. With permission of course.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22734	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

This should be a wake up call to all of us.  Websites are highly ephemeral.  If there is good information on one record it for your own reference, however is best for you.  (I like paper in notebooks and file folders).   And you "kids" out there.  Keep a decent index because someday you'll want to find it for reference.  A tip on this........ Make sure your printer has both a flatbed for book scanning and double sided printing capability.   Another tip:  Get a good screen grab software like Printkey and employ  "copy as plain text" functions where available.  HTML formats can be so creatively complex that they are darnn near impossible to produce a readable 8-1/2 x 11 hard copy from them. Here's a question for you computer savvy guys: Is there a search function in MS Word newer versions or as stand alone software that can search and find words or phrases in a folder of Word docs?  Also what's the best available software for translating images of text into actual text that can be edited?  Lots of old engineering journals, books, magazines and kit instructions are only available as images.  Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22735	From: Larry Stevenson	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

I thought I had better mention this just in case anyone is thinking that I am ill and the site will be going away.  I will keep the HOseeker website up and running as long as I am able to do so.  I am in my 60's, in good health,and plan and hope to be on this planet for many years to come.The reason for the Future of the Site question is because if something sudden does happen or I become very ill for some reason.  I do not want to be making these arrangements about the site then.  I just want to get all my important personal affairs taken care of should anything happen.  Larry HO Train Reference and Resource Site  HO Train Reference and Resource Site Model HO Train Reference and Resource Website View on www.hoseeker.org Preview by Yahoo   On Sunday, May 11, 2014 10:21 AM, "'23weldon' 23.weldon@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   This should be a wake up call to all of us.  Websites are highly ephemeral.  If there is good information on one record it for your own reference, however is best for you.  (I like paper in notebooks and file folders).   And you "kids" out there.  Keep a decent index because someday you'll want to find it for reference.  A tip on this........ Make sure your printer has both a flatbed for book scanning and double sided printing capability.   Another tip:  Get a good screen grab software like Printkey and employ  "copy as plain text" functions where available.  HTML formats can be so creatively complex that they are darnn near impossible to produce a readable 8-1/2 x 11 hard copy from them. Here's a question for you computer savvy guys: Is there a search function in MS Word newer versions or as stand alone software that can search and find words or phrases in a folder of Word docs?  Also what's the best available software for translating images of text into actual text that can be edited?  Lots of old engineering journals, books, magazines and kit instructions are only available as images.  Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22736	From: Rick Jones	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

On 5/11/2014 11:34 AM, Larry Stevenson seekingho@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > I thought I had better mention this just in case anyone is thinking that > I am ill and the site will be going away. I will keep the > HOseeker website up and running as long as I am able to do so. I am in > my 60's, in good health,and plan and hope to be on this planet for many > years to come.The reason for the Future of the Site question is because > if something sudden does happen or I become very ill for some reason. I > do not want to be making these arrangements about the site then. I just > want to get all my important personal affairs taken care of should > anything happen. Archive.org may be another possibility. They scan and store snapshots of many, many websites so the information on them may be referenced if they happen to disappear. -- Rick Jones You only have the rights you are willing to fight for.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22737	From: Carl Neste	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

I have an H-P 7500A printer/scanner/copier/fax machine. The software that came with it includes the ability to optically scan a sheet of text and convert it to rtf format. Seems to work pretty well. There are also a number of 'professional' OCR software packages available - as well as a couple of free open-source packages. Carl On 5/11/2014 10:21 AM, '23weldon' 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:   This should be a wake up call to all of us.  Websites are highly ephemeral.  If there is good information on one record it for your own reference, however is best for you.  (I like paper in notebooks and file folders).   And you "kids" out there.  Keep a decent index because someday you'll want to find it for reference.  A tip on this........ Make sure your printer has both a flatbed for book scanning and double sided printing capability.   Another tip:  Get a good screen grab software like Printkey and employ  "copy as plain text" functions where available.  HTML formats can be so creatively complex that they are darnn near impossible to produce a readable 8-1/2 x 11 hard copy from them. Here's a question for you computer savvy guys: Is there a search function in MS Word newer versions or as stand alone software that can search and find words or phrases in a folder of Word docs?  Also what's the best available software for translating images of text into actual text that can be edited?  Lots of old engineering journals, books, magazines and kit instructions are only available as images.  Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22738	From: Bill Scott	Date: 5/11/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

My HP printer is about a year old and came with Read Iris OCR software.  It does a good job of converting pictures of text into actual editable text. Bill Scott On May 11, 2014, at 8:20 PM, Carl Neste cmneste@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I have an H-P 7500A printer/scanner/copier/fax machine. The software that came with it includes the ability to optically scan a sheet of text and convert it to rtf format. Seems to work pretty well. There are also a number of 'professional' OCR software packages available - as well as a couple of free open-source packages. Carl On 5/11/2014 10:21 AM, '23weldon' 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote:   This should be a wake up call to all of us.  Websites are highly ephemeral.  If there is good information on one record it for your own reference, however is best for you.  (I like paper in notebooks and file folders).   And you "kids" out there.  Keep a decent index because someday you'll want to find it for reference.  A tip on this........ Make sure your printer has both a flatbed for book scanning and double sided printing capability.   Another tip:  Get a good screen grab software like Printkey and employ  "copy as plain text" functions where available.  HTML formats can be so creatively complex that they are darnn near impossible to produce a readable 8-1/2 x 11 hard copy from them. Here's a question for you computer savvy guys: Is there a search function in MS Word newer versions or as stand alone software that can search and find words or phrases in a folder of Word docs?  Also what's the best available software for translating images of text into actual text that can be edited?  Lots of old engineering journals, books, magazines and kit instructions are only available as images.  Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22739	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I just note two Globe kits for hard to find Globe tank cars.  1) UNION STARCH TANK.  2) WARREN. Doing an eBay search for "globe tank car kit" will return the the two kits. No relation to the seller. I have both cars in my collection, always looking for new numbers. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22740	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Gary,   Just as Jim Heckard and others here have indicated in the past, while you may feel that such announcements are being helpful, the best thing to do to be fair to those who've taken the time and trouble to find these items being posted -- so that they have a fairer chance of buying them -- is to not say anything at all.  Since there are members here who have put in "Globe" as a standing eBay search and who have already received notice of these auctions via eBay email alerts, they deserve for others to be honorable in respecting their "finds," and not announcing these things to everyone.  If "everyone" were as diligent in searching out these rare auctions, then they would already know about them and would also be deserving of their searches without needing to be told about them.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 5/12/2014 7:22:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I just note two Globe kits for hard to find Globe tank cars.  1) UNION STARCH TANK.  2) WARREN. Doing an eBay search for "globe tank car kit" will return the the two kits. No relation to the seller. I have both cars in my collection, always looking for new numbers. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22741	From: albyrno	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Chuck,   You are correct there is a lot available to non-members,thanks for bringing it to my attention.The NMRA library does provide some free plans and maps and other non-member free services.If Ho-seeker contents were available in this format on NMRA site it would eliminate the need for research fees.When I use seeker site I often look at several pages to research and/or identify models making it impractical to use with current research inquiries policy.Unfortunately the last few items I was looking for was in the member only category,as a result  I've only been using the standards and conformance's section of site.   Currently if you want to research something it will take 4-6 weeks depending on workload.After 4 item requests it will cost $40 per hr. min. of $5 to research question.Copies cost $1-$5.ea.pg.      .When I use seeker site I often look at several pages to research and/or identify models making it impractical to use with current NMRA research inquiries policy.  We are blessed that Larry has provided us with such an invaluable easy to use site.In addition to identifying models and/or manufacturers of them,I have discovered several new methods for modeling from instruction sheets on Ho seeker site                                                                                                                                        We are blessed that Larry has provided us with such an invaluable easy to use site.          Alan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22742	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Carl and Bill - Thanks for the tips on OCR's.  That's the search word I needed.  We had an HP G55 printer that worked great until it stopped working about the time ink cartridges became impossible to find.  It had a built in OCR software that was probably primitive by today's standards.  But it worked for me.  So my wife, who plays with computer graphics wanted a printer that produces nice color prints (which the HP's are pretty weak at)  We bought a Canon MG6120.  Produces gorgeous color prints; but is weak in other functions that Model train guys use.  And OCR capabilities?  I suppose they are buried in there somewhere.  But their instructions are written for 20 something computer geeks rather than 75 year old analog/mechanical guys.  So it's off to a Google search for "OCR and "Read Iris. But we'll get there yet.  There are plenty of old pre1923 mining journals waiting for exposure. Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22743	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Attachments : Alan,   My request to the NMRA was that it be as open as it is now to review items.  Larry as the site setup so anyone can find what they are looking for pretty quickly.  I would not want to lose that feature either.  The TCA could be another option as mentioned earlier.  The display there is very nice.  So let’s see if the NMRA replies to me and what they say.  I expect they will take some time.     Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 12:30 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: The HOseeker Website's Future     Chuck,   You are correct there is a lot available to non-members,thanks for bringing it to my attention.The NMRA library does provide some free plans and maps and other non-member free services.If Ho-seeker contents were available in this format on NMRA site it would eliminate the need for research fees.When I use seeker site I often look at several pages to research and/or identify models making it impractical to use with current research inquiries policy.Unfortunately the last few items I was looking for was in the member only category,as a result  I've only been using the standards and conformance's section of site.   Currently if you want to research something it will take 4-6 weeks depending on workload.After 4 item requests it will cost $40 per hr. min. of $5 to research question.Copies cost $1-$5.ea.pg.      .When I use seeker site I often look at several pages to research and/or identify models making it impractical to use with current NMRA research inquiries policy.  We are blessed that Larry has provided us with such an invaluable easy to use site.In addition to identifying models and/or manufacturers of them,I have discovered several new methods for modeling from instruction sheets on Ho seeker site                                                                                                                                        We are blessed that Larry has provided us with such an invaluable easy to use site.          Alan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22744	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 12/05/14 23:54, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Gary, > > Just as Jim Heckard and others here have indicated in the past, while you > may feel that such announcements are being helpful, the best thing to do to > be fair to those who've taken the time and trouble to find these items > being posted -- so that they have a fairer chance of buying them -- is to not > say anything at all. Since there are members here who have put in "Globe" > as a standing eBay search and who have already received notice of these > auctions via eBay email alerts, they deserve for others to be honorable in > respecting their "finds," and not announcing these things to everyone. If > "everyone" were as diligent in searching out these rare auctions, then they > would already know about them and would also be deserving of their searches > without needing to be told about them. True Confessions Time.. I have to admit that I do both of these things. If I find something that I Really, Really Want (like a nice Spice Girl) I keep it to myself, and put in a snipe bid. I make sure that I win by putting in a killer bid.. If it's something that I don't want personally, but could be of interest to others in my group, I post it.. Bet that gets some replies.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22745	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

On 13/05/14 7:07, '23weldon' 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Carl and Bill - Thanks for the tips on OCR's. That's the search word > I needed. We had an HP G55 printer that worked great until it > stopped working about the time ink cartridges became impossible to > find. It had a built in OCR software that was probably primitive by > today's standards. But it worked for me. So my wife, who plays with > computer graphics wanted a printer that produces nice color prints > (which the HP's are pretty weak at) We bought a Canon MG6120. > Produces gorgeous color prints; but is weak in other functions that > Model train guys use. And OCR capabilities? I suppose they are > buried in there somewhere. But their instructions are written for 20 > something computer geeks rather than 75 year old analog/mechanical > guys. So it's off to a Google search for "OCR and "Read Iris. But > we'll get there yet. There are plenty of old pre1923 mining journals > waiting for exposure. Ed Weldon Ed, getting OT here, But if you want top quality color prints, you will be very unlikely to get these out of a 'combo' machine. My experience has been that a printer needs to be dedicated, and I've used top of the range Epsons for a long time. No, I don't have any Epson shares. Wish I did - they know how to charge! -- Doug Harris (60 years in pro photography) Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22746	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

On 13/05/14 12:56, 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Alan, > My request to the NMRA was that it be as open as it is now to review items. > Larry as the site setup so anyone can find what they are looking for pretty > quickly. I would not want to lose that feature either. The TCA could be > another option as mentioned earlier. The display there is very nice. So > let's see if the NMRA replies to me and what they say. I expect they will > take some time. > Take care, > Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at > https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 Interesting stuff, Chuck! I've taken the liberty of making a print of your photo 1/17. Is there any further info on the Rotary coal dumper on Rick S's layout? I may build one (coal pier at Sewells Point, VA) at some future stage.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22747	From: Brad Smith	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Now if you are the seller, you would love the publicity.  Brad Smith Franklin, Wi Sent from Brad's iPod On May 12, 2014, at 9:40 PM, "Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 12/05/14 23:54, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Gary, > > Just as Jim Heckard and others here have indicated in the past, while you > may feel that such announcements are being helpful, the best thing to do to > be fair to those who've taken the time and trouble to find these items > being posted -- so that they have a fairer chance of buying them -- is to not > say anything at all. Since there are members here who have put in "Globe" > as a standing eBay search and who have already received notice of these > auctions via eBay email alerts, they deserve for others to be honorable in > respecting their "finds," and not announcing these things to everyone. If > "everyone" were as diligent in searching out these rare auctions, then they > would already know about them and would also be deserving of their searches > without needing to be told about them. True Confessions Time.. I have to admit that I do both of these things. If I find something that I Really, Really Want (like a nice Spice Girl) I keep it to myself, and put in a snipe bid. I make sure that I win by putting in a killer bid.. If it's something that I don't want personally, but could be of interest to others in my group, I post it.. Bet that gets some replies.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22748	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/12/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 13/05/14 15:24, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Now if you are the seller, you would love the publicity. > > Brad Smith >> If it's something that I don't want personally, but could be of interest >> to others in my group, I post it.. >> >> Bet that gets some replies.. Well, there's the first! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22749	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I’ll just add that a couple of my good vintageHO friends will drop me an email when something that I’m looking for came up.   Example; my father ran Trackside Specialties and I was looking for one of his PRR electrics (I now own a P5). A couple of emails gave me the hint.   I also learned that ebay allows you to save searches and will send you emails when something comes up. I keep a ‘Trackside Specialties’ search going just in case.   About once every 6 month an engine comes up, but it’s usually parts. I finally got one after losing several auctions, basically by jacking my bid price up.   Thanks to those of you that provide those clues when they know that I’m looking for something.   Regards   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22750	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

Attachments : Hello Doug, If 1/17 is my layout, I should update it.   Rick S’s layout is N scale, so if Walthers did not make their rotary coal dumper in N scale, Rick made this himself.  He has made some very interesting animation items for his layout.  In the 2012 photos, his bicycle shop, 23/51, has the assembly line moving and the fork truck moves.  He also has some silos that load the hoppers with coal, then they run to the dumper.     Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, May 12, 2014 11:04 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: The HOseeker Website's Future     On 13/05/14 12:56, 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Alan, > My request to the NMRA was that it be as open as it is now to review items. > Larry as the site setup so anyone can find what they are looking for pretty > quickly. I would not want to lose that feature either. The TCA could be > another option as mentioned earlier. The display there is very nice. So > let's see if the NMRA replies to me and what they say. I expect they will > take some time. > Take care, > Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at > https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 Interesting stuff, Chuck! I've taken the liberty of making a print of your photo 1/17. Is there any further info on the Rotary coal dumper on Rick S's layout? I may build one (coal pier at Sewells Point, VA) at some future stage.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22751	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Jim, Garry and others,   Ordinarily, such alerts would seem commendable and among friends they're appreciated and applaudable, but many of us here see the downside of this when making alerts to a large group.  There may be some here who have already found some of these auctions and who may be thinking strongly of placing a bid, or may have already placed a bid.  As they were obviously more interested than others in seeking out these auctions, doing their diligent homework to get this information, it's now unfair to them to make these auctions known to everyone since their chances of winning are now greatly reduced.  So while your alerts may be a benefit to those who never knew about these auctions, many of us found that it's the more honorable thing to remain neutral and just keep it to ourselves, allowing the member(s) who took the time and work to find these items a better chance at winning them.  After all, if someone is interested enough to be able to obtain this information, they should deserve the better chance at getting the item, which is where the more noble and chivalrous gesture by us comes in, in allowing them this unrestricted (with fewer bidders) chance even though we may know about (and even though we may have no interest in the items ourselves).  Just as someone would be thankful to someone else for providing the clues for an item a member would be interested in, I'm sure this same someone would be equally thankful for that someone else not informing everyone about this same item.      With eBay allowing standing searches with them ever since I've been an eBay member (more than 10 years), it shouldn't be an option that no one wouldn't know about by now.  When I first started on eBay (as a buyer), they allowed up to 50 searches to be put in for, with which they send email alerts out every day to anyone having those particular searches in with them.  For at least a couple of years now, eBay has revised the allowable searches to 100 (I use every one of those hundred), and while the eBayer can't expect an alert on every one of their searchers every day, depending on what the searches are for and their particular wording, the member may expect on average, up to 25 or 30 different hits each day if they have all 100 searches being used; most of them of no particular interest, but at least the display is found in your inbox to open and consider.  It also pays to put in for specific categories when logging in these searches such as Varney or you're likely to get a lot of hits for comedian Jim Varney and his character Ernest P. Worrell when left as just "All Categories."    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 5/13/2014 7:19:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I’ll just add that a couple of my good vintageHO friends will drop me an email when something that I’m looking for came up.   Example; my father ran Trackside Specialties and I was looking for one of his PRR electrics (I now own a P5). A couple of emails gave me the hint.   I also learned that ebay allows you to save searches and will send you emails when something comes up. I keep a ‘Trackside Specialties’ search going just in case.   About once every 6 month an engine comes up, but it’s usually parts. I finally got one after losing several auctions, basically by jacking my bid price up.   Thanks to those of you that provide those clues when they know that I’m looking for something.   Regards   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22752	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Aside from personal opinions, is there a vintageho rule or recommendation about this from the moderators.  I personally kind of find this bit of a subterfuge, all of this secrecy somewhat disturbing.  I really personally don't care for the idea of holding back of information to our members, but I will defer to the moderators about this "disclosure" issue. Respectfully, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 08:25:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   Jim, Garry and others,   Ordinarily, such alerts would seem commendable and among friends they're appreciated and applaudable, but many of us here see the downside of this when making alerts to a large group.  There may be some here who have already found some of these auctions and who may be thinking strongly of placing a bid, or may have already placed a bid.  As they were obviously more interested than others in seeking out these auctions, doing their diligent homework to get this information, it's now unfair to them to make these auctions known to everyone since their chances of winning are now greatly reduced.  So while your alerts may be a benefit to those who never knew about these auctions, many of us found that it's the more honorable thing to remain neutral and just keep it to ourselves, allowing the member(s) who took the time and work to find these items a better chance at winning them.  After all, if someone is interested enough to be able to obtain this information, they should deserve the better chance at getting the item, which is where the more noble and chivalrous gesture by us comes in, in allowing them this unrestricted (with fewer bidders) chance even though we may know about (and even though we may have no interest in the items ourselves).  Just as someone would be thankful to someone else for providing the clues for an item a member would be interested in, I'm sure this same someone would be equally thankful for that someone else not informing everyone about this same item.      With eBay allowing standing searches with them ever since I've been an eBay member (more than 10 years), it shouldn't be an option that no one wouldn't know about by now.  When I first started on eBay (as a buyer), they allowed up to 50 searches to be put in for, with which they send email alerts out every day to anyone having those particular searches in with them.  For at least a couple of years now, eBay has revised the allowable searches to 100 (I use every one of those hundred), and while the eBayer can't expect an alert on every one of their searchers every day, depending on what the searches are for and their particular wording, the member may expect on average, up to 25 or 30 different hits each day if they have all 100 searches being used; most of them of no particular interest, but at least the display is found in your inbox to open and consider.  It also pays to put in for specific categories when logging in these searches such as Varney or you're likely to get a lot of hits for comedian Jim Varney and his character Ernest P. Worrell when left as just "All Categories."    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 5/13/2014 7:19:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I’ll just add that a couple of my good vintageHO friends will drop me an email when something that I’m looking for came up.   Example; my father ran Trackside Specialties and I was looking for one of his PRR electrics (I now own a P5). A couple of emails gave me the hint.   I also learned that ebay allows you to save searches and will send you emails when something comes up. I keep a ‘Trackside Specialties’ search going just in case.   About once every 6 month an engine comes up, but it’s usually parts. I finally got one after losing several auctions, basically by jacking my bid price up.   Thanks to those of you that provide those clues when they know that I’m looking for something.   Regards   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22753	From: roger_aultman	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

-- It appears that getting a lower price is the issue here, as long as one is not promoting there own auctions there is no foul. Roger Aultman -- "Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: ============= Aside from personal opinions, is there a vintageho rule or recommendation about this from the moderators. I personally kind of find this bit of a subterfuge, all of this secrecy somewhat disturbing. I really personally don't care for the idea of holding back of information to our members, but I will defer to the moderators about this "disclosure" issue. Respectfully, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 08:25:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay Jim, Garry and others, Ordinarily, such alerts would seem commendable and among friends they're appreciated and applaudable, but many of us here see the downside of this when making alerts to a large group. There may be some here who have already found some of these auctions and who may be thinking strongly of placing a bid, or may have already placed a bid. As they were obviously more interested than others in seeking out these auctions, doing their diligent homework to get this information, it's now unfair to them to make these auctions known to everyone since their chances of winning are now greatly reduced. So while your alerts may be a benefit to those who never knew about these auctions, many of us found that it's the more honorable thing to remain neutral and just keep it to ourselves, allowing the member(s) who took the time and work to find these items a better chance at winning them. After all, if someone is interested enough to be able to obtain this information, they should deserve the better chance at getting the item, which is where the more noble and chivalrous gesture by us comes in, in allowing them this unrestricted (with fewer bidders) chance even though we may know about (and even though we may have no interest in the items ourselves). Just as someone would be thankful to someone else for providing the clues for an item a member would be interested in, I'm sure this same someone would be equally thankful for that someone else not informing everyone about this same item. With eBay allowing standing searches with them ever since I've been an eBay member (more than 10 years), it shouldn't be an option that no one wouldn't know about by now. When I first started on eBay (as a buyer), they allowed up to 50 searches to be put in for, with which they send email alerts out every day to anyone having those particular searches in with them. For at least a couple of years now, eBay has revised the allowable searches to 100 (I use every one of those hundred), and while the eBayer can't expect an alert on every one of their searchers every day, depending on what the searches are for and their particular wording, the member may expect on average, up to 25 or 30 different hits each day if they have all 100 searches being used; most of them of no particular interest, but at least the display is found in your inbox to open and consider. It also pays to put in for specific categories when logging in these searches such as Varney or you're likely to get a lot of hits for comedian Jim Varney and his character Ernest P. Worrell when left as just "All Categories." Ray Wetzel In a message dated 5/13/2014 7:19:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: I’ll just add that a couple of my good vintageHO friends will drop me an email when something that I’m looking for came up. Example; my father ran Trackside Specialties and I was looking for one of his PRR electrics (I now own a P5). A couple of emails gave me the hint. I also learned that ebay allows you to save searches and will send you emails when something comes up. I keep a ‘Trackside Specialties’ search going just in case. About once every 6 month an engine comes up, but it’s usually parts. I finally got one after losing several auctions, basically by jacking my bid price up. Thanks to those of you that provide those clues when they know that I’m looking for something. Regards Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22754	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

There is certainly nothing wrong with looking out for each other!!! Robert

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22755	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 5/13/2014 9:15 AM, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Aside from personal opinions, is there a vintageho rule or recommendation about this from the moderators.  I personally kind of find this bit of a subterfuge, all of this secrecy somewhat disturbing.  I really personally don't care for the idea of holding back of information to our members, but I will defer to the moderators about this "disclosure" issue. Respectfully, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 08:25:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   The official group policy is that posts about ebay auctions are  not restricted.  About the only thing that is "frowned upon", (but not forbidden) is advertising your own auctions. The thing we DO have to be careful about is talking about what we as individual members are bidding on.  For example, I myslf a few weeks ago was interested on bidding on a piece when I saw another member say they were already bidding on it.  I dropped off as a courtesy to that member. HOWEVER, should a seller get wind of that, a case can be brought that we were interfering with the process of an auction. It's a touchy situation and may be best kept off list. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22756	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Just mentioning....

Mike,   Now that I know my messages are again being posted, after almost three weeks in Neo limbo, I'd like to congratulate you on your great recovery giving you such improved vision.  I'm really happy for you that everything turned out so fine.  Best wishes for an equally successful operation when you have the other eye done later on.  I'm assuming this was laser surgery; an older guy I know in one of the clubs I belong to had similar work done to his eyes and not only can he see so much more better, but his whole demeanor changed with it.  It's easy to see that he's a much happier man with this much of an improvement.  I'm assuming you're probably feeling about the same way as him, which I'm glad has happened.   Ray Wetzel         In a message dated 5/9/2014 7:14:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I had mentioned before that I was having an eye operated on. I want to tell those interested that it all went well. I just finished the two weeks at home after the operation. It was a couple of days after the operation that I noticed I had vastly improved vision with that eye. I'm now seeing with a quality that I haven't had since my early youth. About towards Fall, I'll have the other eye done and be a new owner of what should be a pair of 20-30 vision eyes, from what I got from this operation. I've experienced only a minor problem from the operation, and that was because I didn't constantly keep my operated eye fully closed under the bandage for the next 24-hours, and the gauze partly dried it out. However that rather severe pain vanished in the next day or so when the bandage was removed. Other than that, the whole thing was painless. I even managed to completely relax before going into the surgery and stayed asleep during what normally is a stay-awake operation, I feel that worked out well. Now I look forward to having a matching pair of eyes later this year................ A very worthwhile set of eyes. Monday, I return to my factory job. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22757	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 13/05/14 23:20, 'Jim Waterman' Watermaj@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I also learned that ebay allows you to save searches and will send you emails when something comes up. I keep a ‘Trackside Specialties’ search going just in case. Jim, I currently run 77 searches on ebay.. A number of them are close variations in description on a particular item, just to try to cover all the possible ways the sellers might list it. Seems to work well, but I can get up to 1,000 or so auctions to check out daily. (I'm at the lunatic fringe end..) > About once every 6 month an engine comes up, but it’s usually parts. I finally got one after losing several auctions, basically by jacking my bid price up. Do you use a snipe bidder? This is the way to win auctions without sitting up until 2 in the morning and trying to get in a bid at the last moment. Put in your maximum (secret) bid days beforehand, and go peacefully off to sleep.. I use Hammersnipe: http://hammertap.auctionstealer.com/ or google them, but there are a number of others. And it is considered perfectly fair and legal - it's simply a tool used in placing your bid. They will also advise you if your hidden bid in their files is outbid. I can give you other hints on winning auctions, if you would care to contact me off-group.. (Anyone else is welcome, also - we won't be bidding on the same items!) -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22758	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

On 14/05/14 0:06, 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Hello Doug, > > If 1/17 is my layout, I should update it. > Rick S's layout is N scale, so if Walthers did not make their rotary coal > dumper in N scale, Rick made this himself. Many Thanks, Chuck.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22759	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 14/05/14 0:25, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Jim, Garry and others, It also pays to put in for > specific categories when logging in these searches such as Varney or you're > likely to get a lot of hits for comedian Jim Varney and his character Ernest > P. Worrell when left as just "All Categories." > > Ray Wetzel That made good reading, Ray. I would recommend using the 'Advanced Search' and 'Save with Daily Emails' function, but do a little study on how the categories are sorted by ebay, and save a lot of false hits. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22760	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 14/05/14 3:04, raul@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > -- > It appears that getting a lower price is the issue here, as long as one is not promoting there own auctions there is no foul. Roger Aultman I do have to say that winning an auction is my aim. A lot of the stuff which I collect is early, rare, and may in fact be the only one left in the world. Some items I have only seen only the one time in 13+ years on ebay. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22761	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

> The official group policy is that posts about ebay auctions are not > restricted. About the only thing that is "frowned upon", (but not > forbidden) is advertising your own auctions. > The thing we DO have to be careful about is talking about what we as > individual members are bidding on. For example, I myslf a few weeks ago > was interested on bidding on a piece when I saw another member say they > were already bidding on it. I dropped off as a courtesy to that member. > > HOWEVER, should a seller get wind of that, a case can be brought that we > were interfering with the process of an auction. > > It's a touchy situation and may be best kept off list. > > Don Very well put, Don. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22762	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 14/05/14 11:45, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote: > On 14/05/14 3:04, raul@... [vintageHO] wrote: >> >> -- >> It appears that getting a lower price is the issue here, as long as one is not promoting there own auctions there is no foul. Roger Aultman > > I do have to say that winning an auction is my aim. A lot of the stuff > which I collect is early, rare, and may in fact be the only one left in > the world. > > Some items I have only seen only the one time in 13+ years on ebay. > And I'm still kicking myself about some of the ones which I have missed.. (Usually due to having spent all my ready money on other items at that time!..) -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22763	From: willard seehorn	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I'm confused. If my maximum bid on an item is 39.95 why does it matter whether I put that in in a sniping service or in eBay's auto biddng? Willard -----Original Message----- >From: "Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: May 13, 2014 7:34 PM >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay > >Do you use a snipe bidder? This is the way to win auctions without >sitting up until 2 in the morning and trying to get in a bid at the last >moment. Put in your maximum (secret) bid days beforehand, and go >peacefully off to sleep.. > >I use Hammersnipe: > >http://hammertap.auctionstealer.com/ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22764	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Don,    That sounds like good advice.  Besides, announcing an early HO item to the world is like a double-edged sword.  While we all would like to help as many Group members here as we can, by announcing something that not very many members may know about may unwittingly be stabbing a very good member and friend in the back in doing so.  You just can't come away smelling like a rose, and you just could come away feeling awful afterwards if your too-free mouth caused a friend here to lose an auction because of it.  I know that I'd feel bad if my announcing an auction caused you to lose the same auction you were hoping to win; maybe even needing to win if it helped you to complete something that you couldn't otherwise get to operate.  Dropping off an auction is similar, in that it's the courteous thing to do, but once someone spills the word on an auction there's no dropping out of that one; it's already spilled beans and that's not a true service to a friend or anyone else whom you just made it harder to win an item.  While spreading the word may not have that effect at all, the chance that it can is reason enough to refrain from doing so.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 5/13/2014 2:37:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:  To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 08:25:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   The official group policy is that posts about ebay auctions are  not restricted.  About the only thing that is "frowned upon", (but not forbidden) is advertising your own auctions. The thing we DO have to be careful about is talking about what we as individual members are bidding on.  For example, I myslf a few weeks ago was interested on bidding on a piece when I saw another member say they were already bidding on it.  I dropped off as a courtesy to that member. HOWEVER, should a seller get wind of that, a case can be brought that we were interfering with the process of an auction. It's a touchy situation and may be best kept off list. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22765	From: Jeff Ellis	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Hi Because then nobody knows that you are bidding. regaeds Jeff E On Wednesday, 14 May 2014 7:54 AM, "willard seehorn wseehorn@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I'm confused. If my maximum bid on an item is 39.95 why does it matter whether I put that in in a sniping service or in eBay's auto biddng? Willard -----Original Message----- >From: "Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: May 13, 2014 7:34 PM >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay > >Do you use a snipe bidder? This is the way to win auctions without >sitting up until 2 in the morning and trying to get in a bid at the last >moment. Put in your maximum (secret) bid days beforehand, and go >peacefully off to sleep.. > >I use Hammersnipe: > >http://hammertap.auctionstealer.com/ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22766	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 14/05/14 11:54, willard seehorn wseehorn@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > I'm confused. If my maximum bid on an item is 39.95 why does it matter whether I put that in in a sniping service or in eBay's auto biddng? Simple answer is that you have let other bidders know that you are in the market because your bid is visible on ebay. Competitors will simply bid a dollar above that, and you are out. Have you never been to a live auction? Bidders will hide at the back of the room, and wink at the auctioneer to make a bid, or rub their noses, and nobody knows who is bidding. Also if sales are slow, auctioneers (the less principled ones) will pull a fake bid 'off the wall' or 'out of the air' to falsely run the price up against you .. If you are prepared to bid $39.95, then why not $40.95, and secure the item? Also, don't bid this way - always bid $xx.55 - most bidders will simply bid the 39.95, or an even $40.00 or $40.50, but not think that someone will bid an extra few cents, and win. I've had some pleasure in taking an item from a rather sharky dealer who is not popular among local fans, by 50c.. But don't think that I'm a greedy bastard! I won the auction fair and square by being the highest bidder.. With a snipe bid, it's all electronic, and no-one knows you exist until 10 seconds, or even as little as two seconds on a paid service, before the end of the auction - too late for them to put in a higher bid manually and outbid you.. With Hammersnipe you are given three free bids per week. If I have more than three bids, I will pay for a month's service - used to be about $8.50 from memory, for an infinite number of bids - a really good deal. But remember to cancel the monthly service once you have paid, or they will hit your credit card for the $8.50 every month until you do.. And I still haven't told you my method for guaranteeing buying something ultra rare that I really, really want - you'll have to email me direct for that one.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22767	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 14/05/14 13:05, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Don, > > That sounds like good advice. Besides, announcing an early HO item to the > world is like a double-edged sword. While we all would like to help as > many Group members here as we can, by announcing something that not very many > members may know about may unwittingly be stabbing a very good member and > friend in the back in doing so. You just can't come away smelling like a > rose, and you just could come away feeling awful afterwards if your too-free > mouth caused a friend here to lose an auction because of it. I know that > I'd feel bad if my announcing an auction caused you to lose the same auction > you were hoping to win; maybe even needing to win if it helped you to > complete something that you couldn't otherwise get to operate. Dropping off an > auction is similar, in that it's the courteous thing to do, but once > someone spills the word on an auction there's no dropping out of that one; it's > already spilled beans and that's not a true service to a friend or anyone > else whom you just made it harder to win an item. While spreading the word > may not have that effect at all, the chance that it can is reason enough to > refrain from doing so. > > Ray Wetzel Ray and all..Despite what I have written in previous posts, this is the way I act with fellow collectors at a live auction, or where I know they will be bidding on ebay or our local internet auction. A short discussion will usually determine who needs the item the most, and the other bidder will step down.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22768	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/13/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Auction sniping is like poker.  It's a game that requires you to observe much more than just the cards. The sniper bidding service leaves you blind to what is happening in the game.    Few smart sellers on eBay will have their auctions ending at an hour when nobody is awake.  And the days when most of the sellers were naive beginners are long gone thanks to the hoops eBay makes sellers jump through. Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22769	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 14/05/14 16:16, '23weldon' 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Auction sniping is like poker. It's a game that requires you to > observe much more than just the cards. The sniper bidding service > leaves you blind to what is happening in the game. Few smart > sellers on eBay will have their auctions ending at an hour when > nobody is awake. And the days when most of the sellers were naive > beginners are long gone thanks to the hoops eBay makes sellers jump > through. Ed Weldon From this part of the world, it doesn't make much difference - I think we're about 17 hours ahead of central US, or one more hour in our daylight saving time - I have an automated 'time in other parts of the world' software program on my toolbar, but seldom use it, and almost never on ebay ending times - there is a countdown to ending time on the auction page, which is much more convenient.. And yes, it's so complicated selling on epay, that I've almost stopped selling. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22770	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Doug,   Now that's what I call commendable behavior between everyone involved.  I can understand that in a live auction where everyone is present to discuss things beforehand, but eBay bidding doesn't give you that option -- unless you mean that even there, everyone involved has already come to an agreement before the eBay auctions end (or even starts), as to who mostly needs the item(s).  Local internet auction?  Interesting.  I don't know if we have that format here in the States, but there are several groups here which posts items for sale at fixed prices and where great buys can be had; nothing really old though.  In those cases, it all depends on who sees the item first to be able to beat another member there out of it.  One of those groups has just moved to Facebook, although I don't have enough confidence in the security there to follow them   Ray Wetzel.     In a message dated 5/13/2014 11:18:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: Ray and all..Despite what I have written in previous posts, this is the way I act with fellow collectors at a live auction, or where I know they will be bidding on ebay or our local internet auction. A short discussion will usually determine who needs the item the most, and the other bidder will step down.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22771	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Any bidding on eBay requires more than just observing the cards, or the bids being shown.  To get a better idea of the whole atmosphere, you need to open the bid page and then open the automatic bids to get a better picture of the action.  While this still won't prevent your getting outbid, you'll gain a better idea of where it might be going, and by which bidder.  If he looks very intent by his bid pattern so far, there's the good chance that his limit might be a good deal higher than the shown maximum at that point into the auction.  Sniping then, will not get you the item unless you your max is far above what's being shown -- and you can get stung that way in having the next highest bidder go up just under your max, letting you take the bag for an excessive price with seconds to go.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 5/14/2014 12:16:12 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Auction sniping is like poker.  It's a game that requires you to observe much more than just the cards. The sniper bidding service leaves you blind to what is happening in the game.    Few smart sellers on eBay will have their auctions ending at an hour when nobody is awake.  And the days when most of the sellers were naive beginners are long gone thanks to the hoops eBay makes sellers jump through. Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22772	From: anypaddler	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Ray Wetzel wrote: > while you may feel that such announcements are being helpful, the best thing to do to be fair to those who've taken the time and trouble to find these items being posted -- so that they have a fairer chance of buying them -- is to not say anything at all. ------------------- I have no intention of bidding on any of the items, but do like to see what gems people find on eBay, so I have a suggestion.  Post a link AFTER the bidding has closed.  That way, those of us who like to see special vintage items can still have a look, but we have no way to influence the bidding.   I run in streaks on eBay.  There are times when I'll check it daily for something I want, and then there may be weeks go by when I don't even get on the site.  And if it's been awhile since my last visit, I'll look at the completed auctions to see if I missed anything (which frequently happens).   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22773	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Attachments : I think this suggestion is the best so far.  It is nice to see interesting items and after the bidding is done is a good time.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:37 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay     Ray Wetzel wrote: > while you may feel that such announcements are being helpful, the best thing to do to be fair to those who've taken the time and trouble to find these items being posted -- so that they have a fairer chance of buying them -- is to not say anything at all. ------------------- I have no intention of bidding on any of the items, but do like to see what gems people find on eBay, so I have a suggestion.  Post a link AFTER the bidding has closed.  That way, those of us who like to see special vintage items can still have a look, but we have no way to influence the bidding.   I run in streaks on eBay.  There are times when I'll check it daily for something I want, and then there may be weeks go by when I don't even get on the site.  And if it's been awhile since my last visit, I'll look at the completed auctions to see if I missed anything (which frequently happens).   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22774	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Good question, but with an easy answer.  Almost all auctions, except the ones with very savvy buyers, have some bidders that bid from emotion rather than knowledge and logic.  Once there is a "bidding war" started the emotional bidder will keep going.  I have seen some really ridiculous bid this way.  Sometimes I wonder if the bidder had remorse and then reneges on the purchase?  The important thing to understand about bidding in an auction is to make sure you have figured out YOUR MAX bid and then stick to it.  Don't try to get something on the cheap by bidding up one dollar and then keep rebidding.  The reason someone else has outbid you is because they have not yet hit their MAX.  I personally don't use a sniping service, but do wait until the last minute before bidding, if I can.  This does two things.  It keeps the silliness of continuous bids down to keep the bids from getting too high and it lets me enter my HIGHEST bid where I am prevented from re-bidding again by time, just in case my emotions fail me.  :o)  However, eBay loves the re-bid thing and makes it easy to re-bid, driving the price up.  Sometimes it is super fun watching the bids.  I have seen currently available items go way over list price, forget about street price.  Emotions do have a lot to do with re-bidding, so always stick to your personally derived MAX bid and if you lose, it will have been an honest loss.  Do you really want to pay more than your MAX price? Just my 2 cents. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 19:54:24 -0400 Subject: [vintageHO] sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   I'm confused. If my maximum bid on an item is 39.95 why does it matter whether I put that in in a sniping service or in eBay's auto biddng? Willard -----Original Message----- >From: "Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: May 13, 2014 7:34 PM >To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay > >Do you use a snipe bidder? This is the way to win auctions without >sitting up until 2 in the morning and trying to get in a bid at the last >moment. Put in your maximum (secret) bid days beforehand, and go >peacefully off to sleep.. > >I use Hammersnipe: > >http://hammertap.auctionstealer.com/ >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22775	From: roblmclear	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Ridiculous is the word.   A few years ago on e-bay I was watching some brass loco's that I wanted and whilst they went higher that anticipated the price was not that bad.   However I had a post sent to me by a friend who showed me an auction for an empty beer can.   Yep empty with two triangular holes cut in the top, those that remember the days before ring pulls will know what I am talking about. The can was one from the clipper days on Pam Am across the Pacific from San Francisco to China.   It was marked with the Pan Am logo from memory and had the clipper service and the picture of one of the flying boats on it. Oh and the winning bid $37,000 US dollars.   Yep 37 thousand!   As my friend said, we think some train guys are nuts on e-bay, that one took the cake. Rob McLear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22776	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I, for one appreciate when someone tips me off about an item on eBay that I did not know about.  I have a friend who sniffs things out that I miss and I appreciate the information.  I may bid or I may not, but at least I know about the item.  I see nothing wrong with a posting on this site about what is available for sale.  About a month ago, I won a beautiful item because of a tip from someone, and I was the only bidder.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22777	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Yes, I like that.  Be open and above board and help each other out. On a slightly different subject, I have heard in the past that there were model railroaders that withheld tips and "secrets" because they did not want someone else to achieve, or surpass, the same level of modeling they did.  I never understood that weird secrecy and definitely that is exactly opposite what the NMRA stands for.  I kind of see withholding auction information from fellow vintageho members in that same light.  It really doesn't keep the bidding that low. Just my 2 cents, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 10:12:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   I, for one appreciate when someone tips me off about an item on eBay that I did not know about.  I have a friend who sniffs things out that I miss and I appreciate the information.  I may bid or I may not, but at least I know about the item.  I see nothing wrong with a posting on this site about what is available for sale.  About a month ago, I won a beautiful item because of a tip from someone, and I was the only bidder.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22778	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Ralph,   Here are a few interesting items that were up on eBay recently.  While I was only moderately interested in some, I really didn't need any of them, but sometimes they get overlooked and may not go too high in receiving bids.  At those times, I sometime consider placing a bid if there's any chance of getting the item at a price not to be passed up.  Even model freight cars are worth picking up sometimes if they're reasonable enough, although we may already have the same ones, but quality trucks on them would help consider a bid if it's low enough -- and if there are several going for low prices to combine the shipping.  Central Valley trucks are going for a premium.   Check these closed auctions out:   310949984465 Varney Super Pacific.  It started at $65 and ended at only $71.99.  It did need a few minor parts but even though it came with a Varney plastic tender that was not original to it, any Varney Super loco is a bargain at that price.   310949984493 Penn Line GG1.  It started out at $2.00 and ended at $73.05.  Probably no big bargain, but this one was in exceptional condition, except for the box.  You don't always see them that nice.   400700603746 Varney Berkshire in Metal Box.  Started at $26.45 and ended at $108.26.  Still a great price for this model in great condition, albeit it needs a few minor parts that can be easily found.       251524918711 Greenberg's Varney Guide.  Just thought I'd through this in here as from time to time they're still available.  Started at $9.97 and ended at $27.00   Ray Wetzel          In a message dated 5/14/2014 8:37:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: > while you may feel that such announcements are being helpful, the best thing to do to be fair to those who've taken the time and trouble to find these items being posted -- so that they have a fairer chance of buying them -- is to not say anything at all. ------------------- I have no intention of bidding on any of the items, but do like to see what gems people find on eBay, so I have a suggestion.  Post a link AFTER the bidding has closed.  That way, those of us who like to see special vintage items can still have a look, but we have no way to influence the bidding.   I run in streaks on eBay.  There are times when I'll check it daily for something I want, and then there may be weeks go by when I don't even get on the site.  And if it's been awhile since my last visit, I'll look at the completed auctions to see if I missed anything (which frequently happens).   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22779	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Hello Ray, Does this mean you would not high bid on any items, if you knew someone in the forum were bidding on it?   What are the chances of a forum member being outbid by somebody not on the forum?   This approach must put quite a burden on your purchases, having to worry about whether anybody else, you could care about, might also be interested in it. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22780	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Yes, Vic. Reminds me of the cook who finally gives you the recipe, but with an ingredient intentionally left off, or the quantity intentionally changed, so that his/her results are always still better. Walter On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Yes, I like that.  Be open and above board and help each other out. On a slightly different subject, I have heard in the past that there were model railroaders that withheld tips and "secrets" because they did not want someone else to achieve, or surpass, the same level of modeling they did.  I never understood that weird secrecy and definitely that is exactly opposite what the NMRA stands for.  I kind of see withholding auction information from fellow vintageho members in that same light.  It really doesn't keep the bidding that low. Just my 2 cents, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 10:12:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   I, for one appreciate when someone tips me off about an item on eBay that I did not know about.  I have a friend who sniffs things out that I miss and I appreciate the information.  I may bid or I may not, but at least I know about the item.  I see nothing wrong with a posting on this site about what is available for sale.  About a month ago, I won a beautiful item because of a tip from someone, and I was the only bidder.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI     -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22781	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Hi Denis,   Yes, If I knew someone on the forum were bidding on an item I was interested in, I would not place a bid, as for one thing even if my higher bid did not win the item -- if I placed a bid -- this would mean that the forum member would have to place an even higher bidder to be able to have a chance at winning, and there might have been another bidder who outbid me after seeing my higher bid, which this forum member would now have to outbid.  One major factor here is that our Group members rarely if ever announce their intentions of bidding on something (until the auction is over), or even state that they're looking for anything in particular that we could help watching out for them for.    We have auctions in several of the local clubs I belong to, to which non-club members are also invited, and we all work it the same way.  If we see that a fellow club member starts bidding on an item we drop out of the bidding to give him the best chance of obtaining it, and this follows for any one of the club members wanting something which the rest know they've been looking for, for some time, and who really need the item.    While not at all the same as an auction, the many train meet swap & sells attended by mutual friends known through Spanagel's "Reporting Mark" bulletin before eBay came into existence also looked out for each other.  You can get an idea of who they were just by browsing the credits in Spanagel's Varney Guide and Mallerich's Athearn Guide.  As we went through the tables individually we'd check their want lists against what was being offered and alerted our fellow NMRA SIG Group members of these items.  As some SIG members lived in other areas of the country though, we'd exchange want lists through the mail and buy any items (with a max price guide) for him since they would do the same for any of us.  I mention this only to illustrate that we covered each others' back.    Chances of a forum member being outbid by somebody not on the forum?  I'm not quite sure what you mean by this question, but obviously any bidder can be outbid by any other bidder.  That's a no brainer; I don't know what you're getting at.  That can happen any time, and for all we know probably has happened and continues to happen right now all the time.   There's no burden being experienced on my end, as I'm confident that caring forum members also watch out for my interests and allow me the opportunity to place winning bids at times -- if I make it known I'm looking for something.  One thing that's not being considered here is that not very many of our members' eBay User Names are known by others, so unless it's made known here that any member is interested in obtaining an eBay item, very few other members would ever know who's bidding, and once the bidding has started, eBay no longer includes the bidders' User Names but only gives a code, like e***g so we'd need to know the members by their codes (and by the number of their transactions) to be able to pin down who they are.     Since I've been collecting vintage trains for about 45 years and operating them for decades longer, there's fortunately no very much that I really need to add to my collection.  Even with some highly sought after models, I've been lucky enough to have found doubles, triples and other multiples of some of the prized ones over time and at a reasonable enough price to still make them very worthwhile buying.  A plus there is that when HO SIG members would visit each others' homes to view their layouts and collections, we all got first priority of being able to buy prized models from other SIG members if they were selling them.  Collecting, when there was a circle of highly knowledgeable modelers/collectors at that time knowing each other, made obtaining sought-after models so much easier -- and at prices that were equally fair to both parties.  They were different times.  Even some of the better sellers in the train swap & sell circuit (train shows) became well known and they'd put prized items aside for you when they found them in the next estate collection they'd buy.        Sure, I always enjoy adding something to the collection as that's what makes that part of the hobby interesting, but I know I'll never live to build all the kits I have < g >.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 5/14/2014 1:07:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello Ray, Does this mean you would not high bid on any items, if you knew someone in the forum were bidding on it? What are the chances of a forum member being outbid by somebody not on the forum? This approach must put quite a burden on your purchases, having to worry about whether anybody else, you could care about, might also be interested in it. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22782	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Yeah, Walter, I have heard this a lot from many moms, my mom included.  I personally feel that it is a small person that requires that much adulation or winning.  I find it much more rewarding to share and see someone gain expertise and I am even happier when they surpass my feeble attempts. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 14:05:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   Yes, Vic. Reminds me of the cook who finally gives you the recipe, but with an ingredient intentionally left off, or the quantity intentionally changed, so that his/her results are always still better. Walter On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Yes, I like that.  Be open and above board and help each other out. On a slightly different subject, I have heard in the past that there were model railroaders that withheld tips and "secrets" because they did not want someone else to achieve, or surpass, the same level of modeling they did.  I never understood that weird secrecy and definitely that is exactly opposite what the NMRA stands for.  I kind of see withholding auction information from fellow vintageho members in that same light.  It really doesn't keep the bidding that low. Just my 2 cents, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 10:12:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   I, for one appreciate when someone tips me off about an item on eBay that I did not know about.  I have a friend who sniffs things out that I miss and I appreciate the information.  I may bid or I may not, but at least I know about the item.  I see nothing wrong with a posting on this site about what is available for sale.  About a month ago, I won a beautiful item because of a tip from someone, and I was the only bidder.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI     -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22783	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 14/05/14 22:44, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doug, > > Now that's what I call commendable behavior between everyone involved. I > can understand that in a live auction where everyone is present to discuss > things beforehand, but eBay bidding doesn't give you that option > Ray Wetzel. Ray, New Zealand is a small country, and most of the serious collectors know each other personally through years of contact and chatting at swapmeets, conventions and the like, even auctions! so quick contact and discussion is dead easy. Best Country in the World: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11231794 (Sorry - another shameless plug..) -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22784	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 14/05/14 23:07, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Any bidding on eBay requires more than just observing the cards, or the > bids being shown. To get a better idea of the whole atmosphere, you need to > open the bid page and then open the automatic bids to get a better picture > of the action. While this still won't prevent your getting outbid, you'll > gain a better idea of where it might be going, and by which bidder. If he > looks very intent by his bid pattern so far, there's the good chance that > his limit might be a good deal higher than the shown maximum at that point > into the auction. Sniping then, will not get you the item unless you your > max is far above what's being shown -- and you can get stung that way in > having the next highest bidder go up just under your max, letting you take the > bag for an excessive price with seconds to go. > > Ray Wetzel True, Ray. You need to study the patterns of the auction. I'm bidding on one today, and halfway through the auction duration, there were 3 bids, the top one being quite moderate for the item. From my experience, knowing ebay, and the way that these particular items sell, and the demand for them, I can estimate fairly well where the auction will go, about how many snipe bidders there are likely to be, and where their bids are likely to be.. Just checked ebay, and with 5 hours to go, there are still only 4 bids, and the price is still moderate. My feeling is that I can take this one out, so now I'm going to see how much is available from my bank and credit card accounts. I still haven't divulged my top secrets to anybody yet.. (No-one has asked..) 'Ya gotta know the territory!' -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22785	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Doug,   Best of luck on winning this auction.  Please let us know what you bid on if you were successful.  It's starting to sound intriguing now.  Okay ... I'm asking; what's your top secret? < g >.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 5/14/2014 6:39:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 14/05/14 23:07, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Any bidding on eBay requires more than just observing the cards, or the > bids being shown. To get a better idea of the whole atmosphere, you need to > open the bid page and then open the automatic bids to get a better picture > of the action. While this still won't prevent your getting outbid, you'll > gain a better idea of where it might be going, and by which bidder. If he > looks very intent by his bid pattern so far, there's the good chance that > his limit might be a good deal higher than the shown maximum at that point > into the auction. Sniping then, will not get you the item unless you your > max is far above what's being shown -- and you can get stung that way in > having the next highest bidder go up just under your max, letting you take the > bag for an excessive price with seconds to go. > > Ray Wetzel True, Ray. You need to study the patterns of the auction. I'm bidding on one today, and halfway through the auction duration, there were 3 bids, the top one being quite moderate for the item. From my experience, knowing ebay, and the way that these particular items sell, and the demand for them, I can estimate fairly well where the auction will go, about how many snipe bidders there are likely to be, and where their bids are likely to be.. Just checked ebay, and with 5 hours to go, there are still only 4 bids, and the price is still moderate. My feeling is that I can take this one out, so now I'm going to see how much is available from my bank and credit card accounts. I still haven't divulged my top secrets to anybody yet.. (No-one has asked..) 'Ya gotta know the territory!' -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22786	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 15/05/14 12:43, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doug, > > Best of luck on winning this auction. Please let us know what you bid on > if you were successful. It's starting to sound intriguing now. Okay ... > I'm asking; what's your top secret? > < g>. > > Ray Wetzel OK Ray. I'll write up a a few lines tonight, and send them to you direct.. I should add that when I want to win an auction, luck doesn't enter into it! But I won't - sounds a bit uppity, and that's not me.. With the auction approaching, I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about this one - if I win, it means I might not eat for a couple of weeks until my next pension payment comes through! And I really can manage without this one. Still, I might have a try just for the hell of it.. I've sweated blood for a lot of my collection, so another couple of weeks shouldn't hurt.. I've spent so much over the last 12 months on stuff for my new layout - I haven't counted it, but it must be somewhere over 12 grand, mainly in brass locos.. I keep pulling stuff out of my other collections - it's all in storage boxes on shelves, and looking at it, thinking 'I really don't want to sell that', and putting it back on the shelf. Pulled about 20 boxed tinplate and diecast sets down from the top of a cupboard last week, and decided the same.. However, I must bite the bullet, I think, and do it - something's got to go - I've got so much stuff, there is no room to build the layout! Cheers.. Hey, I really like this group and you guys and gals - I'm still a newbie here really - there's open discussion, no agro, no argument, no recriminations - it just feels a good atmosphere! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22787	From: david_helber	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Hi, Willard, Sniping is just a reasonable strategy.  Let me illustrate with an example I used to answer a similar question on a slot car forum some years ago. ----------- Quote: Originally Posted by Xence Someone clue me in as to why people wait till the absolute last minute to buy, ...  ... Sell anything you want and it goes for just an absolutely silly amount of money Sounds like you answered your own question. It would go for an even sillier amount of money if I didn't bid at the last minute. For example, there's a rare red over white Denbeigh Super Chauvinist Saloon funny-car dragster body for sale. I decide I'm willing to pay 25 bucks for it. You decide you're willing to pay $20. You make your $20 top bid. Since somebody in Oshkosh has bid $16, you're now in the lead at $16.50. I wait until the last 6 seconds and throw in my $25 bid. Spang! Auction over. It's mine for $20.50. Hooray. Alternate scenario: Just as before, you have your $20 bid in, and it's sitting at $16.50. I throw my $25 bid in a day early. I'm in the lead at $20.50. You look in and see that you're outbid. But you've been imagining that body on your dragster chassis for 5 days now. You mull it over and decide, considering that you've invested this much time in the auction already, maybe you'd be willing to pay a bit more than you thought was your top dollar three days ago when you made the $20 bid. So you put in a $22 bid. Uh, oh. You are immediately informed that I'm still in the lead at $22.50 [since you didn't go over my earlier $25 bid]. You mull it over for an hour or two. It's getting close to the end. Now you're agitated. You're not going to let me get YOUR Denbeigh body if I'm just a few cents over your last bid. So you throw in your last two bucks and see if 24 smackers will blow me out of the water. It doesn't. Auction over. It's still mine, but now I pay $24.50 instead of $20.50 because I gave you time to obsess about it. I like you, Xence, but not 4 dollars worth. Now the real question is, why the heck did I just explain all that to a bunch of people I might be bidding against? Just an old softie, I guess. ------------ Back in the present, however, I have to say, I do my sniping myself; I don't have a sniping service. It's some silly old concept of sportsmanship, I suppose, like cleaning and eating whatever you shoot. That, and a way of curbing my own excesses - if it's not worth my effort to keep track of the closing time, and take the shot myself, I probably don't really want the thing enough to be spending my money and my storage space on it in the first place. Just my own odd way of looking at things.  Or maybe curbing one's own excesses is what sportsmanship is about. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22788	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 5/14/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I tried to send a request for your secret to you directly but it bounced.  Please send it to me at chpln1@.... Thanks Don Staton in Virginia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 5/14/2014 9:05 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote:   On 15/05/14 12:43, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doug, > > Best of luck on winning this auction. Please let us know what you bid on > if you were successful. It's starting to sound intriguing now. Okay ... > I'm asking; what's your top secret? > < g>. > > Ray Wetzel OK Ray. I'll write up a a few lines tonight, and send them to you direct.. I should add that when I want to win an auction, luck doesn't enter into it! But I won't - sounds a bit uppity, and that's not me.. With the auction approaching, I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about this one - if I win, it means I might not eat for a couple of weeks until my next pension payment comes through! And I really can manage without this one. Still, I might have a try just for the hell of it.. I've sweated blood for a lot of my collection, so another couple of weeks shouldn't hurt.. I've spent so much over the last 12 months on stuff for my new layout - I haven't counted it, but it must be somewhere over 12 grand, mainly in brass locos.. I keep pulling stuff out of my other collections - it's all in storage boxes on shelves, and looking at it, thinking 'I really don't want to sell that', and putting it back on the shelf. Pulled about 20 boxed tinplate and diecast sets down from the top of a cupboard last week, and decided the same.. However, I must bite the bullet, I think, and do it - something's got to go - I've got so much stuff, there is no room to build the layout! Cheers.. Hey, I really like this group and you guys and gals - I'm still a newbie here really - there's open discussion, no agro, no argument, no recriminations - it just feels a good atmosphere! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22789	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping and secrets

Victor,  Reading the musings of you guys about "secrets  made me want to share a quote from one of our old and respected California wine makers,  Josh Jensen of Caleria Wine Company (noted for what may well be the best domestic Pino Noirs).  Dated 9/25/99 in a San Jose Mercury News article---- "The great talents will tell you all because they are so creative and so on top of their games that they are already creating tomorrow's answers.  Only the lesser talents say, 'That is a secret'. "   You find that a lot in model railroading.  Our good fortune is that these folks usually like to write about their methods.   I've had the luck to get to know several of them out here in CA.  Truly special people.   On the subject of sniping I've been reasonably successful with end of auction bids.  I seldom do that without placing one or more early bids. Most important is to know what the item is worth both to me and to the other bidders.  The former comes from lots of experience with the class of items involved and how important the item is to my project.  The latter comes from making the best use of the meager amount of information eBay makes available to buyers.  You have to size up the bidders as best you can to know which tactics to use.  Play the odds.  Make your final highest bids at the top of your comfort price or even above it by 10-20%.  Average over several auction wins will likely be well below your top comfort price. Learn how to place a bid at exactly the time you want.  Learn how to place 2, 3 or even 4 perfectly times successive bids from separate open windows or tabs.  This takes practice.  This won't do you much good against automatic bids.  But most bidders in the model train area seem to bid manually.  Multiple bids in the last minute can rattle a competing bidder.  In general it takes about 10-15 seconds to go from seeing you've been outbid to getting a new bid placed.  The more rattled you are the longer it will take. Realize that sellers have the ability to be notified when a specific item is listed for sale.  They will often offer the same item ending a bit later in hopes of selling to a person who lost in the first bidding.  That auction offers you a second opportunity.  But you have to know the right prices to keep from paying too much. Most sellers offer combined shipping on two or more auction wins in a short time period (like 2-7 days).  If they don't give specifics in the listing ask them at least a couple of days in advance.  This way you get an advantage unseen by other bidders in the second and any successive auctions. Many small items can ship by first class mail.  For cheap items like under $10 the savings over Priority Mail can be a big percentage.  Trouble is, specially with newbie sellers, They don't know about First Class mail and how to get it right in the auction listing.  So ask them.  Others let eBay calculate shipping amount on the auction and end up with an exorbitant s&H cost.  Contact them after you place a low to moderate bid (so they know you're a real bidder) and find out if they will only charge actual shipping or rebate the excess to you.  This process is a struggle for newbie sellers and they may not follow up by changing what they say in the auction listing.   So again you have a bidding advantage in the auction at least against some bidders.  This can be a help in an auction for a common item where the eBay "street price is well established. Have a good clock so you know the exact time to the second.  Don't depend on the eBay timer. Get good with the eBay search functions.  Don't place too high a bid on any thing until you have checked for other auctions for similar items. For really rare items save a search and have it send you emails anytime one comes up.  Several times I've lost auctions on rare kits and then got notified some months later of an auction for the same kit and another better chance to win. OK, done with the data dump.  Time for sleep.  Hope this all is useful. Ed Weldon             Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22790	From: Graeme	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

In message <5372ADD5.3080707@...>, "Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes > >I would recommend using the 'Advanced Search' and 'Save with Daily >Emails' function, but do a little study on how the categories are sorted >by ebay, and save a lot of false hits. > Doug, that is what any serious searcher does, but the effect is rather ruined if someone with nothing better to do then broadcasts details to the rest of the world. Should others want to find these things, then they are welcome to make the same effort as the serious searcher. -- Graeme Eldred

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22791	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 15/05/14 20:16, Graeme yahoo@... [vintageHO] wrote: > In message<5372ADD5.3080707@...>, "Doug Harris > digbee@... [vintageHO]"<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes >> >> I would recommend using the 'Advanced Search' and 'Save with Daily >> Emails' function, but do a little study on how the categories are sorted >> by ebay, and save a lot of false hits. >> > Doug, that is what any serious searcher does, but the effect is rather > ruined if someone with nothing better to do then broadcasts details to > the rest of the world. Should others want to find these things, then > they are welcome to make the same effort as the serious searcher. Hi Graeme. My hints were offered to non-serious searchers, specifically those who don't use ebay at all, thinking it too difficult. I was the underbidder (ie I came second) on the auction we were talking about earlier today - I wasn't desperate to buy this one, I can live without it. There will probably be another when I am in a better situation to bid. On a lot of my auctions, there is no other - items I buy are often once-in-a-lifetime stuff., and I make sure I win them. Which reminds me of the famous quote - I think to Queen Victoria on the Americas Cup when it was being sailed in the British Isles - The Queen was told who the winner was. 'And who came second?' asked the Queen. 'Madam, there *is* no second' was the answer. Same applies to auctions. You either win or you are out.. When I'm felling more alive in the morning I'll reply to those who asked for information on the Harris killer bidding system.. 'Night, guys and gals.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22792	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I see everyone is a little guarded over their ebay secrets, so I'll start: First, there are a lot of bidders sniping out there, including me, mostly because I don't really want to sit by the computer all day waiting for auctions to close I bid the highest I want to pay, and then add about 78 cents or some random amount. Sometime you win by that amount if others are bidding even dollars. I use Hammersnipe and it has an option to let me bid on multiple auctions, and ends the others when I win one. I pay an annual fee for that flexibility. I always look in sold items to see what things like it are selling for. And I always check the buy it now, sometime the item is there for less than the auctions end for, but that is not common. Similar to other guys, I see what the bid pattern is. If there is one guy bidding every 4 hours, I might decline to bid, unless the fella has fallen out of the pace. Sometimes the items with a higher starting bid are worth a look, there will be less bidders usually. With the 99 cent starting bids, there are always those folks that think they'll get it cheap, usually not the case. Misspelled and inaccurately described items may pass through, especially obscure ones, but the vintage HO crowd are usually right on it! My dad always told me that if you want something, and if you wait, it will come to you at your price. So there's nothing I bid on that I cant bear to lose Day of the week that the auction closes makes a difference, highest activity is Sunday night and even Monday night. Finally, the time of year makes a difference. We are entering the buying season now, stuff goes cheaper in the summer, at least in the US. You can get some stellar buys if you in the hunt now. Not such a good time to sell for the same reason. I don't think any if these are unique to me, and there are good how to's on line that go deeper than this. Happy hunting, Jim Waterman Sent from my iPad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22793	From: trainliker	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I also tried to send direct, and also the email is bouncing.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Donald R. Staton' chpln1@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   I tried to send a request for your secret to you directly but it bounced.  Please send it to me at chpln1@.... Thanks Don Staton in Virginia ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 5/14/2014 9:05 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote:   On 15/05/14 12:43, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doug, > > Best of luck on winning this auction. Please let us know what you bid on > if you were successful. It's starting to sound intriguing now. Okay ... > I'm asking; what's your top secret? > < g>. > > Ray Wetzel OK Ray. I'll write up a a few lines tonight, and send them to you direct.. I should add that when I want to win an auction, luck doesn't enter into it! But I won't - sounds a bit uppity, and that's not me.. With the auction approaching, I'm feeling a bit ambivalent about this one - if I win, it means I might not eat for a couple of weeks until my next pension payment comes through! And I really can manage without this one. Still, I might have a try just for the hell of it.. I've sweated blood for a lot of my collection, so another couple of weeks shouldn't hurt.. I've spent so much over the last 12 months on stuff for my new layout - I haven't counted it, but it must be somewhere over 12 grand, mainly in brass locos.. I keep pulling stuff out of my other collections - it's all in storage boxes on shelves, and looking at it, thinking 'I really don't want to sell that', and putting it back on the shelf. Pulled about 20 boxed tinplate and diecast sets down from the top of a cupboard last week, and decided the same.. However, I must bite the bullet, I think, and do it - something's got to go - I've got so much stuff, there is no room to build the layout! Cheers.. Hey, I really like this group and you guys and gals - I'm still a newbie here really - there's open discussion, no agro, no argument, no recriminations - it just feels a good atmosphere! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22794	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping and secrets

Useful info. Thanks Ed. Walter On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 3:47 AM, '23weldon' 23.weldon@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Victor,  Reading the musings of you guys about "secrets  made me want to share a quote from one of our old and respected California wine makers,  Josh Jensen of Caleria Wine Company (noted for what may well be the best domestic Pino Noirs).  Dated 9/25/99 in a San Jose Mercury News article---- "The great talents will tell you all because they are so creative and so on top of their games that they are already creating tomorrow's answers.  Only the lesser talents say, 'That is a secret'. "   You find that a lot in model railroading.  Our good fortune is that these folks usually like to write about their methods.   I've had the luck to get to know several of them out here in CA.  Truly special people.   On the subject of sniping I've been reasonably successful with end of auction bids.  I seldom do that without placing one or more early bids. Most important is to know what the item is worth both to me and to the other bidders.  The former comes from lots of experience with the class of items involved and how important the item is to my project.  The latter comes from making the best use of the meager amount of information eBay makes available to buyers.  You have to size up the bidders as best you can to know which tactics to use.  Play the odds.  Make your final highest bids at the top of your comfort price or even above it by 10-20%.  Average over several auction wins will likely be well below your top comfort price. Learn how to place a bid at exactly the time you want.  Learn how to place 2, 3 or even 4 perfectly times successive bids from separate open windows or tabs.  This takes practice.  This won't do you much good against automatic bids.  But most bidders in the model train area seem to bid manually.  Multiple bids in the last minute can rattle a competing bidder.  In general it takes about 10-15 seconds to go from seeing you've been outbid to getting a new bid placed.  The more rattled you are the longer it will take. Realize that sellers have the ability to be notified when a specific item is listed for sale.  They will often offer the same item ending a bit later in hopes of selling to a person who lost in the first bidding.  That auction offers you a second opportunity.  But you have to know the right prices to keep from paying too much. Most sellers offer combined shipping on two or more auction wins in a short time period (like 2-7 days).  If they don't give specifics in the listing ask them at least a couple of days in advance.  This way you get an advantage unseen by other bidders in the second and any successive auctions. Many small items can ship by first class mail.  For cheap items like under $10 the savings over Priority Mail can be a big percentage.  Trouble is, specially with newbie sellers, They don't know about First Class mail and how to get it right in the auction listing.  So ask them.  Others let eBay calculate shipping amount on the auction and end up with an exorbitant s&H cost.  Contact them after you place a low to moderate bid (so they know you're a real bidder) and find out if they will only charge actual shipping or rebate the excess to you.  This process is a struggle for newbie sellers and they may not follow up by changing what they say in the auction listing.   So again you have a bidding advantage in the auction at least against some bidders.  This can be a help in an auction for a common item where the eBay "street price is well established. Have a good clock so you know the exact time to the second.  Don't depend on the eBay timer. Get good with the eBay search functions.  Don't place too high a bid on any thing until you have checked for other auctions for similar items. For really rare items save a search and have it send you emails anytime one comes up.  Several times I've lost auctions on rare kits and then got notified some months later of an auction for the same kit and another better chance to win. OK, done with the data dump.  Time for sleep.  Hope this all is useful. Ed Weldon             Ed Weldon -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22795	From: vancampbell64	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Guys, I really don't understand why all this rhetoric about "sniping" is being posted on the site. At the end of the day, read: end of the auction, the bidder that wants the item(s) the most, and is will to pay the most, gets that item. I know that early high bids can inflate the winning bid for an item, but "your top bid" should be what YOU are willing to pay to win the auction. As I've found out through 5 years of ebaying, there IS no secret to winning an auction! It's true that waiting until the last minute to cast your bid can save you a few bucks in most cases, but the majority of other "watchers" are doing the same thing, and thinking the same way! Cast your maximum bid and enjoy the moment if you win, or bite the bullet if you don't! If you really desire the item(s), bid accordingly. If it's not as "must have" you can bid conservatively, and not be disappointed when you lose! Ultimately, it all comes down to this; How much is it worth to you?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22796	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I couldn’t agree more. And, call me naive, but I think sniping is a horrible practice. It takes the fun out of the auction process. Richard Carbo   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 10:46 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay     Guys, I really don't understand why all this rhetoric about "sniping" is being posted on the site. At the end of the day, read: end of the auction, the bidder that wants the item(s) the most, and is will to pay the most, gets that item. I know that early high bids can inflate the winning bid for an item, but "your top bid" should be what YOU are willing to pay to win the auction. As I've found out through 5 years of ebaying, there IS no secret to winning an auction! It's true that waiting until the last minute to cast your bid can save you a few bucks in most cases, but the majority of other "watchers" are doing the same thing, and thinking the same way! Cast your maximum bid and enjoy the moment if you win, or bite the bullet if you don't! If you really desire the item(s), bid accordingly. If it's not as "must have" you can bid conservatively, and not be disappointed when you lose! Ultimately, it all comes down to this; How much is it worth to you?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22797	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

This is the nice part about America.  If you don't want to snipe, then you don't have to and if you do, then go ahead.  If you are willing to pay a fair price, then you can probably get the item-if you are quick enough at the end of the auction, or if you put in a fair bid anytime.  If you want to win, you have to bid to win!   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22798	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Can we please close this topic already. If you want or don't want to snipe, that is your business. If you want don't want to alert this or any other group about an auction, that's your business. If you love or hate eBay, that's your business. Nobody has a right to tell you one way is good, the other bad, or to tell you that you should or should not do one of these things or the other. Their opinions are no better than yours. Enough already!!!!!! -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22799	From: david_helber	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

--- tehachapikid asks:   > I really don't understand why all this rhetoric about "sniping" is being posted on the site.  Well, the question   > why does it matter whether I put that in in a sniping service or in eBay's auto biddng? was asked in the first post of the thread.  People answered. -- D

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22800	From: jackdziadul	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I am with Vic and Brad on this one. I also find it interesting that no one seemed to note the seller's perspective (I am not a seller). Regards, Jack Dziadul Sanford, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22801	From: Brad Smith	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I did and that is what started the discussion.  Brad  Sent from Brad's iPod On May 14, 2014, at 6:22 PM, "jackdziadul@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I am with Vic and Brad on this one. I also find it interesting that no one seemed to note the seller's perspective (I am not a seller). Regards, Jack Dziadul Sanford, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22802	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Doug, I know EXACTLY how you feel, about having to dispose of your collection.  You decide it’s time to pare down, so you pick up a loco---no, not that one---another, no that has smoke—not that one—another, but I put all that work into it, painting detailing, adding figures, improving its performance—so, not that one.   You know you have too much.  In some cases you haven’t even looked at some, for a long time.  This one’s rare, because of a short-lived importer, and a very small run, in the ‘60s;  that one is a Japanese, custom one-off from the ‘50s.   What you have to do is to be hypnotized into believing that you are terminally ill.  Then everything drops into perspective.  Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22803	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts

On 5/15/2014 11:40 AM, EriePacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: Hi Don,   Have a suggestion, even though I hesitate to bring it forth.  Most recently, with a very few exceptions, I'm noticing that Yahoo is omitting most of our members' email addresses from their posts and having the messages appear as coming only from VintageHO.  By now, many of us knew various other members just from their email address, but now without having that benefit, I have no idea who's replying.  Perhaps you need to ask members to sign their posts, although I guess it would be too much to mandate it.  The reason may be there though, to now require posts being signed since no one has an identity any longer.    Ray Wetzel  To be honest with you, I hadn't noticed.  Yahoo is so screwed up anyway already it's almost unusable. I'll mention something -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22804	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts

On 5/15/2014 11:40 AM, EriePacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: Hi Don,   Have a suggestion, even though I hesitate to bring it forth.  Most recently, with a very few exceptions, I'm noticing that Yahoo is omitting most of our members' email addresses from their posts and having the messages appear as coming only from VintageHO.  By now, many of us knew various other members just from their email address, but now without having that benefit, I have no idea who's replying.  Perhaps you need to ask members to sign their posts, although I guess it would be too much to mandate it.  The reason may be there though, to now require posts being signed since no one has an identity any longer.    Ray Wetzel  Since I wrote that I went back and looked.  It's not Yahoo, it's your mail reader. I use Thunderbird since Outlook didn't come with Windows 7, and I hate reading mail online. Every post still has the sender's email address on the from line, and VintageHO in the subject line. Still, I do agree, everyone should sign their emails, but then when people start quoting and and a thread gets long you can't tell who said what anyway :-( Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22805	From: hmbb56	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Vintage 2-8-0

What company produced this Consolidation, or is it a kit bashed item? consolidation 2-8-0 consolidation 2-8-0 US $24.26 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale View on www.ebay.com Preview by Yahoo  Thanks, Bill

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22806	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts

All the more reason to refresh group members on basic courtesy.   Please sign your posts and PLEASE Please Please trim your responses. I do understand that with some email readers in Neo trimming may be a tad harder than it was but I still haven’t had any problems since I was switched to Neo. I doubt I am receiving any special treatment but I will mention that I use Firefox as my browser.   Actually I have found that Yahoo has been improving the Neo system albeit it is taking time. But what can you expect when you place a female from Wisconsin in charge who is trying to make Yahoo another Google. Hell one Google is enough thank you and I for one do not like Google at all. I have been using Yahoo for most of my on-line stuff for years because it WASN’T Google!   Besides as with the rest of the world anything that seems to work well must be changed and, in reality, these changes were bound to happen as the web is made more portable device friendly. What about us’n old farts that rely mainly on desktops and laptops and such? Yeah what about that steadily declining group? Here is a secret; Nobody gives a crap anymore. Adapt or take up a different hobby. Maybe something like model trains. I hate change but if I want to use the web I must. Pisses me off though.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 4:35 PM To: EriePacific@... [vintageHO] Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Signing Posts     On 5/15/2014 11:40 AM, EriePacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: Hi Don,   Have a suggestion, even though I hesitate to bring it forth.  Most recently, with a very few exceptions, I'm noticing that Yahoo is omitting most of our members' email addresses from their posts and having the messages appear as coming only from VintageHO.  By now, many of us knew various other members just from their email address, but now without having that benefit, I have no idea who's replying.  Perhaps you need to ask members to sign their posts, although I guess it would be too much to mandate it.  The reason may be there though, to now require posts being signed since no one has an identity any longer.    Ray Wetzel  Since I wrote that I went back and looked.  It's not Yahoo, it's your mail reader. I use Thunderbird since Outlook didn't come with Windows 7, and I hate reading mail online. Every post still has the sender's email address on the from line, and VintageHO in the subject line. Still, I do agree, everyone should sign their emails, but then when people start quoting and and a thread gets long you can't tell who said what anyway :-( Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22807	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0

Bill,   That’s a good question.   I’d say a very early import from the late 50’s or very early 60’s but I’m not aware of any hybrid imports from that era. I doubt it is anything manufactured here as about the only diecast parts appear to be the boiler/firebox casting, cylinder black and maybe (no real way of telling from the photos) the frame. Everything else looks to be brass.   Nor does it look to be bashed. I’m thinking that anyone who would do such good work on the brass would do a better job of detailing.   I had looked at it during the bidding but decided it was too much of a project for me as it would just become another interesting piece that I would never get around to finishing. I didn’t pay much attention as to who the maker was until your post. Now you have me wondering ….   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 1:39 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage 2-8-0     What company produced this Consolidation, or is it a kit bashed item? consolidation 2-8-0 consolidation 2-8-0 US $24.26 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale View on www.ebay.com Preview by Yahoo  Thanks, Bill

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22808	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts

Okay Don, thanks,   Must be just another great perk from Neo on my end, as I hadn't had this up until a couple of days ago.  Can't figure it otherwise, or why my mail reader should suddenly change but thanks for the response.   Ray     In a message dated 5/15/2014 5:35:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 5/15/2014 11:40 AM, EriePacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: Hi Don,   Have a suggestion, even though I hesitate to bring it forth.  Most recently, with a very few exceptions, I'm noticing that Yahoo is omitting most of our members' email addresses from their posts and having the messages appear as coming only from VintageHO.  By now, many of us knew various other members just from their email address, but now without having that benefit, I have no idea who's replying.  Perhaps you need to ask members to sign their posts, although I guess it would be too much to mandate it.  The reason may be there though, to now require posts being signed since no one has an identity any longer.    Ray Wetzel  Since I wrote that I went back and looked.  It's not Yahoo, it's your mail reader. I use Thunderbird since Outlook didn't come with Windows 7, and I hate reading mail online. Every post still has the sender's email address on the from line, and VintageHO in the subject line. Still, I do agree, everyone should sign their emails, but then when people start quoting and and a thread gets long you can't tell who said what anyway :-( Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22809	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0

May be an early Varney loco. Garry Spear On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:39 PM, hmbb56@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   What company produced this Consolidation, or is it a kit bashed item? consolidation 2-8-0 consolidation 2-8-0 US $24.26 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale View on www.ebay.com Preview by Yahoo  Thanks, Bill

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22810	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 16/05/14 6:23, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doug, > > I know EXACTLY how you feel, about having to dispose of your collection. > You decide it's time to pare down, so you pick up a loco---no, not that > one---another, no that has smoke-not that one-another, but I put all that > work into it, painting detailing, adding figures, improving its > performance-so, not that one. Well said, Denis! I was the under-bidder on the auction yestereday, having place my top snipe bid, so I don't have to sell anything immediately! I'd prefer to enjoy my stuff, and my partner can take what it realises after I take the westbound. (Now 75, so it may not be long..) > You know you have too much. In some cases you haven't even looked at some, > for a long time. This one's rare, because of a short-lived importer, and a > very small run, in the '60s; that one is a Japanese, custom one-off from > the '50s. True again.. I also collect Japandes tinplate and diecast, mostly 0-gauge (am I allowed to say that on here??) many from the 1930's, whcih may be the only examples still in existance. So it is imperative to me that I get them.. And I usually do.. (I also moderate the yahoo Japanese Sakai and Seki train group.) I'll be writing my bidding tips to the guys who have asked shortly - sorry guys - had a bad night last night, and didn't write a thing.. > What you have to do is to be hypnotized into believing that you are > terminally ill. Then everything drops into perspective. > Denis I've had two serious brushes with the big C, and I'm on the Mediterranian diet, so I've stopped thinking that way.. :-))> ½ ø ■ ° ≈ (Grinning bearded man with half a bowel, no prostate, a titanium hip joint and Fat Finger Disease) Otherwise, I'm in pretty good shape, thanks! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22811	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 16/05/14 14:38, Doug Harris wrote: > On 16/05/14 6:23, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] wrote: >> Doug, >> >> I know EXACTLY how you feel, about having to dispose of your collection. >> You decide it's time to pare down, so you pick up a loco---no, not that >> one---another, no that has smoke-not that one-another, but I put all that >> work into it, painting detailing, adding figures, improving its >> performance-so, not that one. > > Well said, Denis! > > I was the under-bidder on the auction yestereday, having place my top > snipe bid, so I don't have to sell anything immediately! I'd prefer to > enjoy my stuff, and my partner can take what it realises after I take > the westbound. (Now 75, so it may not be long..) > >> You know you have too much. In some cases you haven't even looked at >> some, >> for a long time. This one's rare, because of a short-lived importer, >> and a >> very small run, in the '60s; that one is a Japanese, custom one-off from >> the '50s. > > True again.. I also collect Japandes tinplate and diecast, mostly > 0-gauge (am I allowed to say that on here??) many from the 1930's, whcih > may be the only examples still in existance. So it is imperative to me > that I get them.. And I usually do.. (I also moderate the yahoo Japanese > Sakai and Seki train group.) > > I'll be writing my bidding tips to the guys who have asked shortly - > sorry guys - had a bad night last night, and didn't write a thing.. > >> What you have to do is to be hypnotized into believing that you are >> terminally ill. Then everything drops into perspective. > > > Denis > > I've had two serious brushes with the big C, and I'm on the > Mediterranian diet, so I've stopped thinking that way.. > > :-))> ½ ø ■ ° ≈ (Grinning bearded man with half a bowel, no prostate, a > titanium hip joint and Fat Finger Disease) Otherwise, I'm in pretty good > shape, thanks! > OOPS! Sorry about the spelling, guys and gals - hit Send with my fattest finger before Speelchuck.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22812	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 15/05/14 11:22, jackdziadul@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I am with Vic and Brad on this one. I also find it interesting that no one seemed to note the seller's perspective (I am not a seller). > Regards, > Jack Dziadul I don't follow that, Jack - the seller gets the highest price that anyone is prepared to bid - which is what the auction is all about - I don't see that he/she is penalised in any way.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22813	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts

On 16/05/14 9:30, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote: > On 5/15/2014 11:40 AM, EriePacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: >> Hi Don, >> Have a suggestion, even though I hesitate to bring it forth. Most >> recently, with a very few exceptions, I'm noticing that Yahoo is >> omitting most of our members' email addresses from their posts and >> having the messages appear as coming only from VintageHO. By now, many >> of us knew various other members just from their email address, but >> now without having that benefit, I have no idea who's replying. >> Perhaps you need to ask members to sign their posts, although I guess >> it would be too much to mandate it. The reason may be there though, to >> now require posts being signed since no one has an identity any longer. >> Ray Wetzel > To be honest with you, I hadn't noticed. > > Yahoo is so screwed up anyway already it's almost unusable. > > I'll mention something > Full emails for both the sender and the group are appearing on my messages. In the group which I moderate, there is a requirement for everyone to give both names and their location on each posting (ie a sigfile) - and that's about the only rule we have. Members are advised of this when they join, and it works just fine.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22814	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts

> Besides as with the rest of the world anything that seems to work well must > be changed and, in reality, these changes were bound to happen as the web is > made more portable device friendly. What about us'n old farts that rely > mainly on desktops and laptops and such? Yeah what about that steadily > declining group? Here is a secret; Nobody gives a crap anymore. Adapt or > take up a different hobby. Maybe something like model trains. I hate change > but if I want to use the web I must. Pisses me off though. > John Hagen 'Individual emails' is the answer.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22815	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts

Hey, watch it on the Wisconsin remark! :) Just kidding. I live in Kenosha, WI, now! One of the few cities in America that has a streetcar line downtown using PCC cars. About the only city that I know of that is not a major city but has both a drive-in theater AND a streetcar line. Otherwise I got to agree, I don't like the changes either. But, I sign my emails in this group like I do any other email. Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 4:53 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Signing Posts   All the more reason to refresh group members on basic courtesy.   Please sign your posts and PLEASE Please Please trim your responses. I do understand that with some email readers in Neo trimming may be a tad harder than it was but I still haven’t had any problems since I was switched to Neo. I doubt I am receiving any special treatment but I will mention that I use Firefox as my browser.   Actually I have found that Yahoo has been improving the Neo system albeit it is taking time. But what can you expect when you place a female from Wisconsin in charge who is trying to make Yahoo another Google. Hell one Google is enough thank you and I for one do not like Google at all. I have been using Yahoo for most of my on-line stuff for years because it WASN’T Google!   Besides as with the rest of the world anything that seems to work well must be changed and, in reality, these changes were bound to happen as the web is made more portable device friendly. What about us’n old farts that rely mainly on desktops and laptops and such? Yeah what about that steadily declining group? Here is a secret; Nobody gives a crap anymore. Adapt or take up a different hobby. Maybe something like model trains. I hate change but if I want to use the web I must. Pisses me off though.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 4:35 PM To: EriePacific@... [vintageHO] Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Signing Posts     On 5/15/2014 11:40 AM, EriePacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: Hi Don,   Have a suggestion, even though I hesitate to bring it forth.  Most recently, with a very few exceptions, I'm noticing that Yahoo is omitting most of our members' email addresses from their posts and having the messages appear as coming only from VintageHO.  By now, many of us knew various other members just from their email address, but now without having that benefit, I have no idea who's replying.  Perhaps you need to ask members to sign their posts, although I guess it would be too much to mandate it.  The reason may be there though, to now require posts being signed since no one has an identity any longer.    Ray Wetzel  Since I wrote that I went back and looked.  It's not Yahoo, it's your mail reader. I use Thunderbird since Outlook didn't come with Windows 7, and I hate reading mail online. Every post still has the sender's email address on the from line, and VintageHO in the subject line. Still, I do agree, everyone should sign their emails, but then when people start quoting and and a thread gets long you can't tell who said what anyway :-( Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22816	From: trainliker	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Sniping sometimes hurts, sometimes helps, sellers in my opinion.   By heading off the chance for another bidder to try again, the selling price can end up lower.  This is probably the usual outcome.  "But for" the snipe bid, the final bid would have wound up higher.   But when two snipers bidding along the lines of "go big or go home" bid, the second highest sniper pushes the highest sniper way up.  "But for" the second sniper, the first would have gotten it for much less.   So it depends on each auction.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   On 15/05/14 11:22, jackdziadul@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I am with Vic and Brad on this one. I also find it interesting that no one seemed to note the seller's perspective (I am not a seller). > Regards, > Jack Dziadul I don't follow that, Jack - the seller gets the highest price that anyone is prepared to bid - which is what the auction is all about - I don't see that he/she is penalised in any way.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22817	From: trainliker	Date: 5/15/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

I need to clarify a little.  The snipe bid does raise the bid, a little.  What I should have said is "but for" eliminating the chance for other bidders to react, the final bid would have wound up higher.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: ckinzer@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   Sniping sometimes hurts, sometimes helps, sellers in my opinion.   By heading off the chance for another bidder to try again, the selling price can end up lower.  This is probably the usual outcome.  "But for" the snipe bid, the final bid would have wound up higher.   But when two snipers bidding along the lines of "go big or go home" bid, the second highest sniper pushes the highest sniper way up.  "But for" the second sniper, the first would have gotten it for much less.   So it depends on each auction.   Chuck Kinzer

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22818	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 16/05/14 18:35, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Sniping sometimes hurts, sometimes helps, sellers in my opinion. > > By heading off the chance for another bidder to try again, the > selling price can end up lower. This is probably the usual outcome. > "But for" the snipe bid, the final bid would have wound up higher. Don't understand this.. There is no more time available to re-bid at the end of the auction. How can a non-sniping bidder possibly bid again if the sniper's bid goes in at 2 seconds before the auction ends?? The non-sniping bidders have all stopped bidding before the snipe bidders even start, which is between 10 seconds and two seconds before the end of the auction. If the non-snipers haven't put in a bid higher than the snipe bidders, the highest snipe bidder wins the auction. No-one knows what the top bid is except ebay's computer, which at the allotted time, accepts the highest bid. I say again - a snipe bid is simply using a tool (perfectly legal and ethical) to place a bid on the auction. Whether it is higher or lower than the highest non-snipe bid does not enter into the equation. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22819	From: Rick Jones	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 5/16/2014 1:38 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I need to clarify a little. The snipe bid does raise the bid, a > little. What I should have said is "but for" eliminating the chance for > other bidders to react, the final bid would have wound up higher. Part of the reason why I'd like to see the online bidding process changed to something more like a live auction: Any bid in the last seconds extends the closing time to allow for counter bids to be placed, perhaps up to 24 hours so you don't have to be right there at the scheduled end time. Live auctions usually don't close until all interested parties are given a fair chance to counterbid. -- Rick Jones "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." - Charles Austin Beard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22820	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

As I see it, and I may not be seeing everything, for starters there is just so much time before any eBay auction ends, and they all end at a certain time.  They don't remain open until it's assured that all bidders' bids are in -- whether those bids are from snipers or from more normal bidders (non-snipers) who have now seen a supposed snipe bid being entered and have the choice (and unlimited time) to bid over this sniper.  These eBay auctions just don't work that way.  Yes, Doug, I believe you're 100% correct -- in that there's no more time at the end of these auction for any further bids to be placed; they're finite and everyone's had their chance regardless of when they chose to bid..   BUT, this does not mean that snipers always win the auction either.  This totally depends on the amount of the snipe bid and a sniper may just unwittingly undo their own purpose if their snipe bid is too low, as now there's not enough time left with 2 seconds to go, even for the sniper to enter a higher bid if he sees that his snipe bid has been outbid by an earlier bidder who's highest amount has yet to be registered (until immediately after the snipe bid).  For that matter, the non-snipers' highest bid may never be known  If he wins, he'll win only with a bid higher than the snipers' bid, which may still be $10 or $20 below his max.  The non-sniper who entered a bid 10 minutes before the auction closed could still win the auction if the sniper's bid is short of this non-snipers' max.  There are no guarantees with sniping.   With sniping, ya takes ya chances and ya better go high (really high), if you want to be as sure as you can!   Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 5/16/2014 5:21:09 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 16/05/14 18:35, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Sniping sometimes hurts, sometimes helps, sellers in my opinion. > > By heading off the chance for another bidder to try again, the > selling price can end up lower. This is probably the usual outcome. > "But for" the snipe bid, the final bid would have wound up higher. Don't understand this.. There is no more time available to re-bid at the end of the auction. How can a non-sniping bidder possibly bid again if the sniper's bid goes in at 2 seconds before the auction ends?? The non-sniping bidders have all stopped bidding before the snipe bidders even start, which is between 10 seconds and two seconds before the end of the auction. If the non-snipers haven't put in a bid higher than the snipe bidders, the highest snipe bidder wins the auction. No-one knows what the top bid is except ebay's computer, which at the allotted time, accepts the highest bid. I say again - a snipe bid is simply using a tool (perfectly legal and ethical) to place a bid on the auction. Whether it is higher or lower than the highest non-snipe bid does not enter into the equation. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22821	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

There are several live on-line auctions held in Pennsylvania to this day.  Stout Auctions, in fact, is holding one today (May 16).  Another is AmboseBauer Trains; there are others.  The bulk is usually larger scale tinplate but H0 is not excluded and there can be some good buys if you really want to get into something like this.  Stout offers an on-line catalog of all their upcoming lots, to let you know just what's being offered and to enable you to line up anything you may want to place a bid on for the day.  Some of these same auctions in PA have been going on for at least 10 years or more that I'm aware of, and probably much longer.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 5/16/2014 7:35:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 5/16/2014 1:38 AM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I need to clarify a little. The snipe bid does raise the bid, a > little. What I should have said is "but for" eliminating the chance for > other bidders to react, the final bid would have wound up higher. Part of the reason why I'd like to see the online bidding process changed to something more like a live auction: Any bid in the last seconds extends the closing time to allow for counter bids to be placed, perhaps up to 24 hours so you don't have to be right there at the scheduled end time. Live auctions usually don't close until all interested parties are given a fair chance to counterbid. -- Rick Jones "You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." - Charles Austin Beard

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22822	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0

This  looks like a Penn Line H-9 that an enterprising modeller shaved off the domes and belpaire boiler detailman, filed out the cab windows and added a few details. Check out the mechanism, and also the description that says it is a cast boiler. Also note that there is more cast in detail on the forward section of the boiler.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22823	From: jimwatermanboeing	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings

Not sure if there are many Lionel HO collectors on this group (I am not really one), but I found in my stuff a couple of cars that look like they might be Rivarossi produced cars from Lionel's 1957 offerings. (A B&O Sentinel Box and Santa Fe reefer.). We had purchased a fairly significant HO collection in the early 70s and I've been carrying these and others for a long time. One clue on the Sentinel is that the number is 466464, the 6464 being a nod to the O gauge box car. Can anyone help? I'm looking for photos of the HO catalog or pictures of what they offered for that year.  I looked in my 1957 Lionel catalog, but they don't reference the HO in there yet. And apparently the line changed a little in 1958, Thanks in advance Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22824	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

This whole eBay topic is getting off topic and degenerating into a spat. Let's just drop it. I don't want to have to make a rule, but perhaps the best thing for now is, unless someone has a QUESTION about an eBay posting, don't mention it while the auction is in progress. To clarify, questions such as "what is this? anybody know anything about this piece? is it REALLY "R@RE"? etc. are perfectly OK. Otherwise, don't mention it while the auction is in progress. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22825	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings

On 5/16/2014 7:13 AM, Watermaj@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Not sure if there are many Lionel HO collectors on this group (I am not really one), but I found in my stuff a couple of cars that look like they might be Rivarossi produced cars from Lionel's 1957 offerings. (A B&O Sentinel Box and Santa Fe reefer.). We had purchased a fairly significant HO collection in the early 70s and I've been carrying these and others for a long time. One clue on the Sentinel is that the number is 466464, the 6464 being a nod to the O gauge box car. Can anyone help? I'm looking for photos of the HO catalog or pictures of what they offered for that year.  I looked in my 1957 Lionel catalog, but they don't reference the HO in there yet. And apparently the line changed a little in 1958, Thanks in advance Jim The one piece I have from that era does have the Rivarossi name and "made in italy" cast into the underbody.  It is of course identified as Lionel by the "L" in a circle logo on the side. After the late 50's the cars were made by Athearn (ca 1958-1962) until they died from the slot car craze, when the line was re-introduced in the 70's {?} they were China clones of the Athearn product. Don Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22826	From: william witte	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0

Link to pictures of the Consolidation disassembled. Tyco Trains Tyco Trains Author  Topic    LGLrr845 Little Six Status: offline View on www.tycoforums.com Preview by Yahoo   On Friday, May 16, 2014 8:14 AM, "'Jim Waterman' Watermaj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   This  looks like a Penn Line H-9 that an enterprising modeller shaved off the domes and belpaire boiler detailman, filed out the cab windows and added a few details. Check out the mechanism, and also the description that says it is a cast boiler. Also note that there is more cast in detail on the forward section of the boiler.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22827	From: hmbb56	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings

Link to 1957 Lionel HO Brochure http://hoseeker.net/lionelhoinformation/lionelho1957brochurepg1.jpg

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22828	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts

That is what I have.   Admittedly un-trimmed replies are an even huger PIA for those who get digests but even for us individual email types it is still sorta like sitting on a hemorrhoid. Especially when the replier is one of them that’s puts their reply at the bottom of the post, like you and list-owner Don do. Not saying there is anything wrong with that and in fact it is probably the really proper way to do it. However with propensity for replier’s to not trim ………..   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 9:52 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Signing Posts     > Besides as with the rest of the world anything that seems to work well must > be changed and, in reality, these changes were bound to happen as the web is > made more portable device friendly. What about us'n old farts that rely > mainly on desktops and laptops and such? Yeah what about that steadily > declining group? Here is a secret; Nobody gives a crap anymore. Adapt or > take up a different hobby. Maybe something like model trains. I hate change > but if I want to use the web I must. Pisses me off though. > John Hagen 'Individual emails' is the answer.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22829	From: louis niederlander	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings

Actually the big intro was in 1958.   1957 was the intro of Super O track.   Regards,   Louis N TCA 76-10069   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 05:13:30 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings Not sure if there are many Lionel HO collectors on this group (I am not really one), but I found in my stuff a couple of cars that look like they might be Rivarossi produced cars from Lionel's 1957 offerings. (A B&O Sentinel Box and Santa Fe reefer.). We had purchased a fairly significant HO collection in the early 70s and I've been carrying these and others for a long time. One clue on the Sentinel is that the number is 466464, the 6464 being a nod to the O gauge box car. Can anyone help? I'm looking for photos of the HO catalog or pictures of what they offered for that year.  I looked in my 1957 Lionel catalog, but they don't reference the HO in there yet. And apparently the line changed a little in 1958, Thanks in advance Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22830	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0

It is definitely a kitbash.  I recognize details of the smoke box and firebox as being a John English Pacific/Mikado boiler originally, but shortened and filed considerably.  Are the firebox legs separate pieces, attached to the boiler?  Stack domes and pilot look like Mantua Mogul parts, perhaps pre-war since the domes appear to be brass, not diecast.   Richard.     -----Original Message----- From: william witte hmbb56@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, May 16, 2014 8:17 am Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Vintage 2-8-0 Link to pictures of the Consolidation disassembled. Tyco Trains Tyco Trains Author  Topic    LGLrr845 Little Six Status: offline View on www.tycoforums.com Preview by Yahoo   On Friday, May 16, 2014 8:14 AM, "'Jim Waterman' Watermaj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   This  looks like a Penn Line H-9 that an enterprising modeller shaved off the domes and belpaire boiler detailman, filed out the cab windows and added a few details. Check out the mechanism, and also the description that says it is a cast boiler. Also note that there is more cast in detail on the forward section of the boiler.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22831	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0

Looking closer, this does appear to be based on a cut down John English Mikado.    Richard.     -----Original Message----- From: Garry Spear garrettspear@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, May 15, 2014 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Vintage 2-8-0 May be an early Varney loco. Garry Spear On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:39 PM, hmbb56@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   What company produced this Consolidation, or is it a kit bashed item? consolidation 2-8-0 consolidation 2-8-0 US $24.26 Used in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale View on www.ebay.com Preview by Yahoo  Thanks, Bill

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22832	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

When I snipe, I always feel that if I lose the item, at least I made some sucker really pay.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 5/16/2014 1:35:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Sniping sometimes hurts, sometimes helps, sellers in my opinion.   By heading off the chance for another bidder to try again, the selling price can end up lower.  This is probably the usual outcome.  "But for" the snipe bid, the final bid would have wound up higher.   But when two snipers bidding along the lines of "go big or go home" bid, the second highest sniper pushes the highest sniper way up.  "But for" the second sniper, the first would have gotten it for much less.   So it depends on each auction.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message -----

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22833	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Signing Posts

Don, I have the same problem with many responses, and multiple quotes of previous responses, in one ‘set’.  Sometimes the latest comment is  only three words long and hard to find.  I lose chronology; just don’t see the order of things.  I give it a few seconds, then go to the next subject.  If I’m confronted with a similar situation, it’s bye-bye to that email. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22834	From: vancampbell64	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Ray Wetzel's comment is right on the money! As the saying goes, "You live by the sword, You die by the sword!" Or, "You win some, You lose some!" It all still comes down to the simple fact; The highest bidder won because he was willing to pay more at the auction! It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out! One more cliche, "You get what you pay for!" Or in the losing bidders case; "You DIDN"T get what you DIDN"T want to pay for!" Suck It Up, you're paying market value for the items you may win, because at the end of the auction, what you pay IS "current market value"! If you don't like the price posted for an item, or the bidding gets too high, wait for another to roll around. If you're concerned that you'll never see another one, you're probably in the same boat as the next guy, and this drives up the "current market value"! How bad do you want it?!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22835	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Gorre & Dephatid Cars, John Allen Schemes

Hi All, Selling my selection of John Allen Gorre & Dephatid cars.  Some are new in the box (Combine, Ore Car, & Drovers Caboose), some were assembled and placed on my layout (slightly run).  No scratches or broken steps.  The coaches have new passenger style MDC trucks, original were archbar (see Cattle Car for a truck picture) and dummy (factory) couplers.  Coach #8 has a decal number.  The combine has the archbar trucks in the box, no MDC passenger trucks. All cars are factory paint, but the cattle car has some lite weathering.  I don't remember if the weathering is factory or mine.  All assembled freight cars are equipped with Kayde couplers.  The gondola appears to have painted trucks, matching the car body color.  All eight cars $100, plus $10.00 Priority mail shipping, with tracking,etc. Here are pictures of the cars. Drovers Caboose, NIB - http://jpegbay.com/gallery/003222154-.html#1 Ventilated Box Car - http://jpegbay.com/gallery/003222126-.html#1 Gondola - http://jpegbay.com/gallery/003222108-.html#1 Cattle Car - http://jpegbay.com/gallery/003619290-.html#1 Ore Car, NIB - http://jpegbay.com/gallery/003619280-.html#1 Passenger Cars, Combine(NIB), Coach, Coach - http://jpegbay.com/gallery/003222026-.html#1 Enjoy the pictures. Garrett (Garry) Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22836	From: vancampbell64	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

And if you're going to play the "sniping game", you'd better have your act together as far as your "device" is concerned! I've placed and confirmed bids on my friends "smartphone" with 3G service in a matter of a few seconds, where-as, the process can take 15-16 seconds on my home computer. I'd like to see how fast one could do this on a 4G network! I'm sure some of the readers here know! I'll admit, I've been both the "victor" and the "victim" of this strategy, and humbly take my wins with my loses. If I want it bad enough, I'll bid accordingly!

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22837	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Whoops Payment Details, Gorre & Dephatid Cars,

Sorry I forgot payment information on my selling email.  Check or Money order is preferred.  Arrangements can be made for other payments types, like cash.  Local pickup (Philadelphia, PA  area) is available, save the shipping cost Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22838	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Rick, I’m on an internet site that does that.  If there are any bids in the last 15 min. of an auction, the auction is extended one time, for 15 min. This is better for the seller.   I appreciate this, as in over 800 eBay transactions, I have received more than I paid, on maybe 5% of those.  And I’ve bought them at discount. Please, I don’t need a bunch of pertinent observations, as to why.  I know the factors involved.   Founding fathers?  What do they have to do with Amurica, as L Johnson pronounced? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22839	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping

Funny how even though the list owner declared this thread closed it seems to live on. I have no real problem with this thread other than it is long become monotonous.   If there are maybe four members that really want to go on (and on) maybe it should be taken off-list? Just sayin’ …….   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 1:04 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay     Rick, I’m on an internet site that does that.  If there are any bids in the last 15 min. of an auction, the auction is extended one time, for 15 min. This is better for the seller.   I appreciate this, as in over 800 eBay transactions, I have received more than I paid, on maybe 5% of those.  And I’ve bought them at discount. Please, I don’t need a bunch of pertinent observations, as to why.  I know the factors involved.   Founding fathers?  What do they have to do with Amurica, as L Johnson pronounced? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22840	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings

Thanks everyone for the info.   HOSeeker comes through once again. For those of you that don’t know, there is a Lionel 1957 (yes, 57) HO brochure and it is scanned in to HOSeeker in its entirety. There are items in that brochure that didn’t make it to the 1958 catalog (like the Sentinel boxcar!). This first year (57) was primarily Rivarossi equipment, and not all of it has Lionel markings. I had seen one of these boxcars go for fairly high dollars on ebay, and then found one in my stuff. In 58 some of the equipment was Athearn (like the GP9 and the E-33).   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22841	From: 23weldon	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Me too.   I'd keep the extra time on the short side. 1-2 minutes.   In a real auction if you get up to go to the bathroom during the bidding the auctioneer isn't going to wait for you to come back.   Ed Weldon   Fri May 16, 2014 4:35 am (PDT) . Posted by: "Rick Jones" seventysixinchesoffun Part of the reason why I'd like to .: Any bid in the last seconds extends the closing time to allow for counter bids to be placed, perhaps up to 24 hours Live auctions usually don't close until all interested parties are given a fair chance to counterbid.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22842	From: corlissbs	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings

I wonder what year Lionel began selling the Athearn F7, 57 or 58?   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 5/16/2014 4:19:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Thanks everyone for the info.   HOSeeker comes through once again. For those of you that don’t know, there is a Lionel 1957 (yes, 57) HO brochure and it is scanned in to HOSeeker in its entirety. There are items in that brochure that didn’t make it to the 1958 catalog (like the Sentinel boxcar!). This first year (57) was primarily Rivarossi equipment, and not all of it has Lionel markings. I had seen one of these boxcars go for fairly high dollars on ebay, and then found one in my stuff. In 58 some of the equipment was Athearn (like the GP9 and the E-33).   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22843	From: Dale Weaver	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: FW: Tyco sets

Hi folks,   Happy Friday (unless, of course, you are in New Zealand, where it is already Saturday)!   While I have not been able to take any pictures of the trains/sets, I have looked at some of the literature included with the older set and here is a listing of what I’ve found so far:   -        1954 Walthers reference manual and catalog -        1955 Gilbert catalog -        1952(?) Introduction to Scale Model Railroading book/catalog by Linn H. Westcott -        1954 Small Railroads you can Build by Kalmbach Publishing Co., Milwaukee, WI -        Several Model Railroader magazines from 1952 to 1955 -        Model Railroading magazine, undated -        1952 Model Railroad Handbook -        1954 Mantua Stock Car Assembly Instructions sheet   If any of this literature is of interest to any of you, then please advise or feel free to contact (dale.weaver@...) or call me directly at 304-777-0770.   Thanks so much and have a great weekend.   Dale   From: Dale Weaver [mailto:Dale.Weaver@...] Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 3:27 PM To: 'vintageho@yahoogroups.com' Subject: Tyco sets   Hey folks,   Both my brother and my dad have died and I have inherited 2 Tyco sets – one from 1954 (or maybe 1953? with some Mantua info) and one from 1976 (Spirit of 76).   I have track, electronics, cars, etc., am a very motivated seller and live in Morgantown, West Virginia.  My interest is to find someone who will use and enjoy it.   Before trying to take pictures and placing it all on Ebay – especially since I do not have a smart phone – I have been referred to you by Larry Stevenson of HO Seeker for ideas and potential interest.   My desire is to sell it all to someone who can come by and check it out before taking it with them.  Running a small business will most likely preclude me from having the time to effectively and efficiently pack it all up and ship it somewhere.   Any info you can provide is sincerely appreciated.   My best regards,   Dale Weaver   c: 304-777-0770

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22844	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 16/05/14 23:35, Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Part of the reason why I'd like to see the online bidding process > changed to something more like a live auction: Any bid in the last > seconds extends the closing time to allow for counter bids to be placed, > perhaps up to 24 hours so you don't have to be right there at the > scheduled end time. Live auctions usually don't close until all > interested parties are given a fair chance to counterbid. Remember live auctions are not internet auctions - two different animals.. Except in New Zealand - out local internet auction (Trademe) only closed about 5 minutes after the last bid comes in! Disconcerting, to say the least, but it does allow for the slow-pokes to get a into g and put in another bid. I don't like it. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22845	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings

On 17/05/14 0:13, Watermaj@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Not sure if there are many Lionel HO collectors on this group (I am not really one), but I found in my stuff a couple of cars that look like they might be Rivarossi produced cars from Lionel's 1957 offerings. (A B&O Sentinel Box and Santa Fe reefer.). We had purchased a fairly significant HO collection in the early 70s and I've been carrying these and others for a long time. One clue on the Sentinel is that the number is 466464, the 6464 being a nod to the O gauge box car. > > Can anyone help? I'm looking for photos of the HO catalog or pictures of what they offered for that year. > I looked in my 1957 Lionel catalog, but they don't reference the HO in there yet. And apparently the line changed a little in 1958, > > Thanks in advance > > Jim Have you searched google *Images*? I'm staggered at what is on there.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22846	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 17/05/14 12:42, Doug Harris wrote: >>> Doug, >>> Best of luck on winning this auction. Please let us know what you bid on >>> if you were successful. It's starting to sound intriguing now. Okay ... >>> I'm asking; what's your top secret? >>> Ray Wetzel OK. The auction is all done. I was the underbidder - ie I came second, which means I won stuff all. However, I put in the highest bid that I could conveniently finance at this time, and there will come another of these locos, so I'm happy with the outcome. I never planned to win this one at all costs. Auction was ebay: 111349713090 This Westside Model Company, Virginian #610, made in Korea by Samhongsa. Virginian 2-8-8-0 and tender This locomotive is heavy. Both sets of drivers are individually motored. All wheels are flanged. You can see the full acution by hitting: See Original Listing. It's a fine brass loco, and I could have used it on my planned Virginian Railway Layout. A short burst of history, because it's interesting for this loco (at least I think it is): The prototype of this loco is the cut-down version of the Virginian Railway Triplex Loco (2-8-8-8-4 Class XA - X for experimental). Built by Baldwin to haul 5,000-ton coal trains up the 15-mile 2% grade from Elmore WV to the summit at Clarks Gap, it was never a success, running out of steam after about a mile, and requiring two or three stops on the grade to build up pressure . It was never paid for, and eventually sent back to Baldwin and cut down into two locos - the two front engines becoming this one, 2-8-8-0 #610, hence the huge, out-of proportion and rather ugly boiler. Later it was fitted with a two-wheel trailing truck. (Erie had three triplex 2-8-8-8-2's. I'm not sure how well they worked in the different territory.) Steam locos on this VGN gradient nearly asphyxiated (literally) the loco crews in the tunnels. Imagine the fumes, smoke and steam from *two* 2-10-10-2 pusher locos at full power at 12mph and confined in a tunnel! Engineers pulled bags over their heads, and the firemen and brakemen jumped into the tender water tank. My layout will cover this incline section of double track, and these trains, later worked by electrics, and I have bought a number of the squarehead, streamliner and later rectifier locos. Time frame will be open, so I can run any locos I wish at any time. I plan to visit Virginia in the next year to help with planning, and landscaping, take photographs on the VGN Heritage Trail, and see the current iteration of my favourite railroad. Contact me if you would like more info. links and contacts for the late lamented Virginian Railway. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22847	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 17/05/14 4:18, tehachapikid@... [vintageHO] wrote: > And if you're going to play the "sniping game", you'd better have > your act together as far as your "device" is concerned! I've placed > and confirmed bids on my friends "smartphone" with 3G service in a > matter of a few seconds, where-as, the process can take 15-16 seconds > on my home computer. I'd like to see how fast one could do this on a > 4G network! I'm sure some of the readers here know! I'll admit, I've > been both the "victor" and the "victim" of this strategy, and humbly > take my wins with my loses. If I want it bad enough, I'll bid > accordingly! I don't understand this posting, either.. Snipe bids are placed well ahead of the end of the acution, just like ordinary bids, except that they are with an outside service with high-powered computers who take your bid and place it electronically for you a few seconds before the auction ends. I think Hammersnipe will accept or cancel bids up to two minutes before the auction ends, but don't quote me on that.. 'Sniping' is not trying to force in a bid at the last second - that's not clever or smart.. My snipe bids are placed usually between 24 and 12 hours before the acution ends, but nobody knows they exist - even Hammersnipe pinks, because it's all stored in their computers.. Then I can just sit back and watch TV with a beer, got to bed, or sometimes I even watch the auction end! Ebay provides a useful countdown clock on the auction page as the end becomes nigh.. One of the few useful things that they do.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22848	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping

On 17/05/14 6:20, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Funny how even though the list owner declared this thread closed it seems to > live on. I have no real problem with this thread other than it is long > become monotonous. Just hit 'Delete' John.. There are still comments being made that need answers.. Although as I said in my previous post, I think the end is nigh.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22849	From: trainliker	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

Snipe bids do NOT need to be placed well ahead of the auction end.  You can manually make a snipe bid in the last seconds (as I used to do).  If you use a service (and there are many) the service merely queues up your bid and makes it for you.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   On 17/05/14 4:18, tehachapikid@... [vintageHO] wrote: > And if you're going to play the "sniping game", you'd better have > your act together as far as your "device" is concerned! I've placed > and confirmed bids on my friends "smartphone" with 3G service in a > matter of a few seconds, where-as, the process can take 15-16 seconds > on my home computer. I'd like to see how fast one could do this on a > 4G network! I'm sure some of the readers here know! I'll admit, I've > been both the "victor" and the "victim" of this strategy, and humbly > take my wins with my loses. If I want it bad enough, I'll bid > accordingly! I don't understand this posting, either.. Snipe bids are placed well ahead of the end of the acution, just like ordinary bids, except that they are with an outside service with high-powered computers who take your bid and place it electronically for you a few seconds before the auction ends. I think Hammersnipe will accept or cancel bids up to two minutes before the auction ends, but don't quote me on that.. 'Sniping' is not trying to force in a bid at the last second - that's not clever or smart.. My snipe bids are placed usually between 24 and 12 hours before the acution ends, but nobody knows they exist - even Hammersnipe pinks, because it's all stored in their computers.. Then I can just sit back and watch TV with a beer, got to bed, or sometimes I even watch the auction end! Ebay provides a useful countdown clock on the auction page as the end becomes nigh.. One of the few useful things that they do.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22850	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 17/05/14 15:40, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Snipe bids do NOT need to be placed well ahead of the auction end. > You can manually make a snipe bid in the last seconds (as I used to > do). If you use a service (and there are many) the service merely > queues up your bid and makes it for you. > > Chuck Kinzer Indeed you are right, Chuck! > From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: > Auction sniping is the practice, in a timed online auction, of > placing a higher bid than the current highest public bid at the last > possible moment (often seconds before the end of the auction), giving > the other bidders no time to outbid the sniper. This can be done > manually, or by software. The software can run on the bidder's > computer or on an online sniping service accessible through a > website. Use of an online service is said to decrease the failure > rate of the snipe, because the website has more reliable servers and > a faster Internet connection with a less variable delay in sending > data (jitter), thus enabling the bid to be placed closer to the > deadline, even arriving within the last second. So I stand corrected! I used to try to make last-second bids, too, but soon came to recognise what a time-waster it was, and how risky.. However, the general use of the word seems to refer to an outside service placing the bids for you, I don't think I have heard it actually being used in this way before, although I would have said that it was technically correct - that any last-second bid is really a snipe bid.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22851	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/16/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

On 5/16/2014 10:40 PM, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Snipe bids do NOT need to be placed well ahead of the auction end.  You can manually make a snipe bid in the last seconds (as I used to do).  If you use a service (and there are many) the service merely queues up your bid and makes it for you.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 16, 2014 8:11 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay   On 17/05/14 4:18, tehachapikid@... [vintageHO] wrote: > And if you're going to play the "sniping game", you'd better have > your act together as far as your "device" is concerned! I've placed > and confirmed bids on my friends "smartphone" with 3G service in a > matter of a few seconds, where-as, the process can take 15-16 seconds > on my home computer. I'd like to see how fast one could do this on a > 4G network! I'm sure some of the readers here know! I'll admit, I've > been both the "victor" and the "victim" of this strategy, and humbly > take my wins with my loses. If I want it bad enough, I'll bid > accordingly! I don't understand this posting, either.. Snipe bids are placed well ahead of the end of the acution, just like ordinary bids, except that they are with an outside service with high-powered computers who take your bid and place it electronically for you a few seconds before the auction ends. I think Hammersnipe will accept or cancel bids up to two minutes before the auction ends, but don't quote me on that.. 'Sniping' is not trying to force in a bid at the last second - that's not clever or smart.. My snipe bids are placed usually between 24 and 12 hours before the acution ends, but nobody knows they exist - even Hammersnipe pinks, because it's all stored in their computers.. Then I can just sit back and watch TV with a beer, got to bed, or sometimes I even watch the auction end! Ebay provides a useful countdown clock on the auction page as the end becomes nigh.. One of the few useful things that they do.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand Enough already. I declared this off topic last night. Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22852	From: Doug Harris	Date: 5/17/2014
Subject: Re: sniping (was) Re: Two Globe Tanks Car on eBay

> Enough already. > > I declared this off topic last night. > > Don Sorry, Don - must have missed that.. I think I've made my point.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22853	From: Chris B	Date: 5/17/2014
Subject: Vintage imported HO brass rolling stock models - seeking unpainted -

Attachments : W&OD RR WWII era roster and vintage HO brass models on hand.jpg unpainted vintage HO brass models on hand for W&OD layout.jpg unpainted HO brass motive power and rolling stock on hand for W&OD layout in WWII era.jpg second group of painted vintage HO brass models on hand for W&OD layout operations in WWII era.jpg painted vintage HO brass models on hand for W&OD layout operations in WWII era.jpg Good morning, today seemed like a good chance for something completely different from recent topics, so with apologies for posting a similar email in the brass collectors group Even though the primary focus of this group is American Vintage HO, there has always been some interest in early vintage imported brass HO,  though of course it's almost always about locomotives, and my questions are about rolling stock. First,  I recently bought a vintage box of 12 painted brass hoppers with TMS wrapping paper, I've attached a photo, and I'd like to hear if their appearance confirms that maker, that is just for my own curiosity, I plan to strip them and equip them with sprung trucks and KD couplers for use on my layout. Second, I recently bought 3 factory painted OMI hoppers,and one owner painted OMI box car, also picture attached, (2 H-31Cl, 1 H-31B, and 1 XM-1) Before I have those stripped to match the rest of the roster for the layout,  I thought I should check and see if any members who collect HO PRR brass rolling stock have unpainted versions of the same models and would prefer painted,and would consider even trades for similar condition models, offline of course, (chrisb_acw_rr@...) Third, I have a small group of various types of painted early imported brass HO rolling stock models, in various states and conditions, (also pictured in the attachments),  and while it's probably unlikely, if any member would be interested in trading equivalent unpainted, especially badly tarnished brass rolling stock models of similar types, I'd much rather have aged tarnished finish models for these type of cars than the fresh bright finish I'll be left with after stripping them. I've attached photos of the rest of the roster just to show the types of cars I'm working with, brightly finished recent detailed models, and old rough finish on the early simple cars. FWIW, I also have several mint copies in boxes of all of painted Tenshodo freight car models, since they aren't brass, I have no plans to strip them, and since they're painted, I probably won't ever run them, but I would also consider trades for unpainted brass vintage rolling stock. I've also attached some photos of my Washington & Old Dominion-based collection of HO brass motive power and freight car models, and the equivalent photos from the prototype, to show what types of unpainted brass freight cars I have been accumulating for use on the layout when operations finally begin after I retire next year; I've done that in case any member is interested in trading, but has other unpainted but different models. As far as the recent highly detailed models like the OMI PRR hoppers I have in painted versions, I am also especially interested in trading for or purchasing any Micro, OMI, Challenger, or other make single sheathed wooden outside braced box cars. Thanks, Chris Brannigan

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22854	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/17/2014
Subject: Re: Virginian Brass -- was Sniping, was Two Globe Cars

Doug,   While this is not on sniping, although I see your use of a sniping service was still not successful enough to have you win, by the final price of this auction it very much appears that you need awfully deep pockets to consistently buy brass models specific for one railroad -- if that's what your squarehead, streamliner and later rectifier locos are.  I will agree though, that they're nice models but buys like this ill make anybody broke, or very thin from having to go on a budget-forced diet.  I'm presuming your bid was the one placed at 21:15;41 PDT, what looks like the last bid placed.   I've always appreciated the steam and electrics that the Virginian rostered, although I haven't modeled the Virginian Railway.  A favorite Virginian engine of mine is their Class AG Allegheny, of which they had eight of.  They were the only other railroad besides the C&O to have these steam engines, which they called "Blue Ridge" (Allegheny was a designation only of the C&O).  I have the model in the early Winton version which they touted as not having any brass castings and the later one which has all the brass castings.  Also have it in Arbour Models, which I bought when they first came out in the 1980's, but I haven't assembled it yet -- nor do I know if I ever will (although I'm tempted to sometime).  I just now did a Google search for Virginian Allegheny and one exceptional hit that came up -- and which you can find by searching; flickr gallery allegheny 72157628345667853 -- will take you to our member Sean N.'s lot of 18 model photos, many of which are of this model, but which also includes the Varney Super Consol and Reading brass Atlantic, etc.   Thanks for the details on the Virginian Triplex.  The Erie's three P-1 Triplexes were not very successful on the long haul, even though they could pull up to 650 cars, as they ran out of steam after some distance (just couldn't continue to build enough steam).  They did work out very well though in pusher service.  The first one built -- the Matt H. Shay #2603 (later renumbered to #5014) -- was used extensively (but not exclusively) on the eastbound grade (Susquehanna Hill) from Susquehanna, PA to Gulf Summit, over Sturrucca Viaduct.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 5/16/2014 10:56:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 17/05/14 12:42, Doug Harris wrote: >>> Doug, >>> Best of luck on winning this auction. Please let us know what you bid on >>> if you were successful. It's starting to sound intriguing now. Okay ... >>> I'm asking; what's your top secret? >>> Ray Wetzel OK. The auction is all done. I was the underbidder - ie I came second, which means I won stuff all. However, I put in the highest bid that I could conveniently finance at this time, and there will come another of these locos, so I'm happy with the outcome. I never planned to win this one at all costs. Auction was ebay: 111349713090 This Westside Model Company, Virginian #610, made in Korea by Samhongsa. Virginian 2-8-8-0 and tender This locomotive is heavy. Both sets of drivers are individually motored. All wheels are flanged. You can see the full acution by hitting: See Original Listing. It's a fine brass loco, and I could have used it on my planned Virginian Railway Layout. A short burst of history, because it's interesting for this loco (at least I think it is): The prototype of this loco is the cut-down version of the Virginian Railway Triplex Loco (2-8-8-8-4 Class XA - X for experimental). Built by Baldwin to haul 5,000-ton coal trains up the 15-mile 2% grade from Elmore WV to the summit at Clarks Gap, it was never a success, running out of steam after about a mile, and requiring two or three stops on the grade to build up pressure . It was never paid for, and eventually sent back to Baldwin and cut down into two locos - the two front engines becoming this one, 2-8-8-0 #610, hence the huge, out-of proportion and rather ugly boiler. Later it was fitted with a two-wheel trailing truck. (Erie had three triplex 2-8-8-8-2's. I'm not sure how well they worked in the different territory.) Steam locos on this VGN gradient nearly asphyxiated (literally) the loco crews in the tunnels. Imagine the fumes, smoke and steam from *two* 2-10-10-2 pusher locos at full power at 12mph and confined in a tunnel! Engineers pulled bags over their heads, and the firemen and brakemen jumped into the tender water tank. My layout will cover this incline section of double track, and these trains, later worked by electrics, and I have bought a number of the squarehead, streamliner and later rectifier locos. Time frame will be open, so I can run any locos I wish at any time. I plan to visit Virginia in the next year to help with planning, and landscaping, take photographs on the VGN Heritage Trail, and see the current iteration of my favourite railroad. Contact me if you would like more info. links and contacts for the late lamented Virginian Railway. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22855	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 5/17/2014
Subject: Re: Enough Already

Put a sock in it -- take it off-line!      In a message dated 5/17/2014 10:56:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 16/05/14 23:35, Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Part of the reason why I'd like to see the online bidding process > changed to something more like a live auction: Any bid in the last > seconds extends the closing time to allow for counter bids to be placed, > perhaps up to 24 hours so you don't have to be right there at the > scheduled end time. Live auctions usually don't close until all > interested parties are given a fair chance to counterbid. Remember live auctions are not internet auctions - two different animals.. Except in New Zealand - out local internet auction (Trademe) only closed about 5 minutes after the last bid comes in! Disconcerting, to say the least, but it does allow for the slow-pokes to get a into g and put in another bid. I don't like it. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22856	From: greenbrier614	Date: 5/18/2014
Subject: Re: Looking for info on 1957 Lionel HO offerings

There's some more info on the Rivarossi memory site: http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/Altre_Marche/Lionel/RR_Lionel_Carrara/Riva_Lionel_Carrara_Eng.htm Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22857	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Re: Enough Already

Amen. John B. Allyn From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:02:05 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Enough Already   Put a sock in it -- take it off-line!      In a message dated 5/17/2014 10:56:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 16/05/14 23:35, Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Part of the reason why I'd like to see the online bidding process > changed to something more like a live auction: Any bid in the last > seconds extends the closing time to allow for counter bids to be placed, > perhaps up to 24 hours so you don't have to be right there at the > scheduled end time. Live auctions usually don't close until all > interested parties are given a fair chance to counterbid. Remember live auctions are not internet auctions - two different animals.. Except in New Zealand - out local internet auction (Trademe) only closed about 5 minutes after the last bid comes in! Disconcerting, to say the least, but it does allow for the slow-pokes to get a into g and put in another bid. I don't like it. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22858	From: rcjge	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Hobbytown F7 kit

Hey Guys: Did the HT F7 kit come with a shell? Also did the frame differ between the A & B unit? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22859	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

On 5/19/2014 5:54 PM, jgpedwards@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Hey Guys: Did the HT F7 kit come with a shell? Also did the frame differ between the A & B unit? Thanks, Jeff The F unit drive was the drive only, it fit Athearn, Penn Line, Revell, Cary and Varney shells. The one old one I have (ca. 1950's) under a Varney F-3 looks like it will fit an A or a B. -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22860	From: saddlewood1	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: DC-71 & A Motors

Hello Folks, I'm now in the market for junked motors, Bowser DC-71 & the  A  variant. I'm going to follow Tom Hayden's single motor, but dual engine drive solution to achieve this modification. That mode is using the  second DC motor frame, shaft, worm, to drive the front gearbox.  So, let me know if you have something and cost. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22861	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 5/19/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

Hi, The hobbytown F7 kits did not come with a shell. The kits for the A units and the B units were different. The kits for the B units were squared at the ends. Robert

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22862	From: My-Yahoo-Groups	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: The HOseeker Website's Future

 The one major thing that you need to do is have a back-up person that knows the web site, a co-owner. The co-owner needs to know logins, passwords, file locations, and everything else about the site. If you suddenly become incapacitated, you need someone who can step right in and keep things going without searching through directories/folders for some important tid-bit. My Marx-trains and PRRH web sites are documented so that my wife can take over and keep it running. She has the logins, passwords to the sites and access to my computer for all the html. I have a friend that is a member of PRRH that has/had a Lehigh Valley Railroad web site. He's now unable to communicate and noone can find his site info to keep it updated. Human back-up is very important.   Steve W. http://www.prrh.org -- Phillipsburg Railroad Historians http://www.marx-trains.com -- Marx HO web http://nasme.tripod.com -- Nazareth Area Society Of Model Engineers ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Stevenson seekingho@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: The HOseeker Website's Future   I thought I had better mention this just in case anyone is thinking that I am ill and the site will be going away.  I will keep the HOseeker website up and running as long as I am able to do so.  I am in my 60's, in good health,and plan and hope to be on this planet for many years to come.The reason for the Future of the Site question is because if something sudden does happen or I become very ill for some reason.  I do not want to be making these arrangements about the site then.  I just want to get all my important personal affairs taken care of should anything happen.  Larry HO Train Reference and Resource Site  HO Train Reference and Resource Site Model HO Train Reference and Resource Website View on www.hoseeker.org Preview by Yahoo   On Sunday, May 11, 2014 10:21 AM, "'23weldon' 23.weldon@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   This should be a wake up call to all of us.  Websites are highly ephemeral.  If there is good information on one record it for your own reference, however is best for you.  (I like paper in notebooks and file folders).   And you "kids" out there.  Keep a decent index because someday you'll want to find it for reference.  A tip on this........ Make sure your printer has both a flatbed for book scanning and double sided printing capability.   Another tip:  Get a good screen grab software like Printkey and employ  "copy as plain text" functions where available.  HTML formats can be so creatively complex that they are darnn near impossible to produce a readable 8-1/2 x 11 hard copy from them. Here's a question for you computer savvy guys: Is there a search function in MS Word newer versions or as stand alone software that can search and find words or phrases in a folder of Word docs?  Also what's the best available software for translating images of text into actual text that can be edited?  Lots of old engineering journals, books, magazines and kit instructions are only available as images.  Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22863	From: rcjge	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

Does anyone have an HT F7 ""B" unit frame for trade? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22864	From: Dennis Kunkel	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

Try here: http://home.comcast.net/~bearbon/site/?/page/Vintage_Parts_Listing/ Part #133 for a Globe F7 B Unit - $5.00 This is the Bear Locomotive parts site. Howard is the current owner of Hobbytown, and he is continuing to sell parts for both vintage and newer Hobbytown chassis. I have purchased a number of parts from him, and he is great to do business with. He also sells on eBay. The parts he does not have are anything that uses helical gears (gearbox main drive shafts, auxiliary drive shafts, and wheel sets, although he does have both brass and nickel silver wheels); low speed gears; and EMD and Alco four-wheel truck side frames - those are all sold out, and are the reason he can no longer put together complete kits. Otherwise, he has just about everything you would need to build a Hobbytown chassis from parts. The newer F7 Universal chassis did not have a separate A and B unit frame - hence the name "universal". I believe the chassis for Globe units were pre-flywheel. If you have or want a flywheel, I think you need a universal chassis.   Dennis Kunkel From: "jgpedwards@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 11:44 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit   Does anyone have an HT F7 ""B" unit frame for trade? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22865	From: rcjge	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

Thanks Dennis: I'll contact Howard and see about ordering some chassis, Happily I have a Mill, 4 lathes and a Combination machine so I can make what ever he doesn't have. Do you or anyone else know if the HT Shark Body is their own, or the Mantua one? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22866	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

Mantua’s second generation shell.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 9:06 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit     Thanks Dennis:   I'll contact Howard and see about ordering some chassis, Happily I have a Mill, 4 lathes and a Combination machine so I can make what ever he doesn't have.   Do you or anyone else know if the HT Shark Body is their own, or the Mantua one?   Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22867	From: Dennis Kunkel	Date: 5/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

Jeff, HOSeeker shows Hobbytown Shark A and B unit bodies - part numbers 701 and 702. However, Howard doesn't show them on his web site. The Hobbytown E unit shells are all gone as well. (The Cary E unit shells are much better detailed, anyway.) He does show Alco FA, FB and PA shells, as well as body parts for the Alco RS-3 still being available. Dennis From: "jgpedwards@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:05 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit   Thanks Dennis: I'll contact Howard and see about ordering some chassis, Happily I have a Mill, 4 lathes and a Combination machine so I can make what ever he doesn't have. Do you or anyone else know if the HT Shark Body is their own, or the Mantua one? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22868	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

In order to get HT compatible shells you will have to watch for HT Shark shells on sites like eBay; they do appear from time to time.   Or you can watch for Mantua or Tyco (METAL shells only, if it doesn’t say metal don’t bid unless you know how to tell the differences) that are from the second generation of production. The two easiest ways of telling is the small notch at the bottom of the shells right above where the rear truck would be and/or two open slots in the roof at the rear of the shell. Also the pilot shouldn’t have a coupler opening but that is not all that reliable a way to tell. Also, if there is a bottom view photo if there is a tapered round stalactite from the roof between the trucks it is the early one and not suitable to the HT drive without a lot of extra work.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 9:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit     Jeff, HOSeeker shows Hobbytown Shark A and B unit bodies - part numbers 701 and 702. However, Howard doesn't show them on his web site. The Hobbytown E unit shells are all gone as well. (The Cary E unit shells are much better detailed, anyway.) He does show Alco FA, FB and PA shells, as well as body parts for the Alco RS-3 still being available.   Dennis   From: "jgpedwards@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:05 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit     Thanks Dennis:   I'll contact Howard and see about ordering some chassis, Happily I have a Mill, 4 lathes and a Combination machine so I can make what ever he doesn't have.   Do you or anyone else know if the HT Shark Body is their own, or the Mantua one?   Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22869	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

I can't be sure if the shells are from the same die, I haven't examined that closely.  I can say that the Hobbytown  Shark lacks the huge stalactite of a mounting boss in the center of the shell.  It's a major pain if you want to use a normal drive with a nice big single motor.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 19:54:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit   Jeff, HOSeeker shows Hobbytown Shark A and B unit bodies - part numbers 701 and 702. However, Howard doesn't show them on his web site. The Hobbytown E unit shells are all gone as well. (The Cary E unit shells are much better detailed, anyway.) He does show Alco FA, FB and PA shells, as well as body parts for the Alco RS-3 still being available. Dennis From: "jgpedwards@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:05 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit   Thanks Dennis: I'll contact Howard and see about ordering some chassis, Happily I have a Mill, 4 lathes and a Combination machine so I can make what ever he doesn't have. Do you or anyone else know if the HT Shark Body is their own, or the Mantua one? Thanks, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22870	From: anypaddler	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Bear Locomotive (was Hobbytown F7 kit)

Dennis Kunkel wrote: < (Howard Mosley) has just about everything you would need to build a Hobbytown chassis from parts. ---------------- I, too, have dealt with Howard and he is most congenial, both in person and via mail.  I met him several years ago at the Springfield (Mass.) train show and I was disappointed when he told me that he no longer had the frames for the plastic body RS-3.  I got lucky and was able to pick up two chassis on ebay; one had a pair of 4-wheel trucks and the other a pair of 6-wheel trucks (for and RSD-4/5), but only one motor (which I eventually did find on ebay).  While he no longer had the frames, Howard did have the few miscellaneous parts I needed to get the units running.  As soon as I can replace the original crosswise exhaust stacks (for the troublesome air-cooled turbocharger) with a replacement longitudinal stack (for the water-cooled turbo) I'll have a buddy of mine custom paint the units, the two I already had plus another body kit that came with the chassis.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22871	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

Watch this space.   How is that for a grabber?   I have two first generation Mantua\Tyco sharks (two motors no less) and a 2nd generation Tyco variant that uses the same shell as the HT models. I think I also have an original, unused HT shell along with a drive or two and some HT AAR type “B” sideframes. I will get them out of storage a take some photos to post to the group, hopefully this weekend (my weekend ends Sunday as I do have to work Monday). I also have a virgin Mantua “B” unit kit.   I used to have some virgin wool slacks but I got into them.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:25 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit           I can't be sure if the shells are from the same die, I haven't examined that closely.  I can say that the Hobbytown  Shark lacks the huge stalactite of a mounting boss in the center of the shell.  It's a major pain if you want to use a normal drive with a nice big single motor.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 19:54:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit   Jeff, HOSeeker shows Hobbytown Shark A and B unit bodies - part numbers 701 and 702. However, Howard doesn't show them on his web site. The Hobbytown E unit shells are all gone as well. (The Cary E unit shells are much better detailed, anyway.) He does show Alco FA, FB and PA shells, as well as body parts for the Alco RS-3 still being available.   Dennis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22872	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

Hi John, I have a few of those first generation sharks myself.  :o)   I have 3  A units, one is dual motored and a B unit, plus a dummy chassis with the spreader and dummy trucks.  If I find a good first generation B unit body, I will convert it to a single motored one by changing the dual motored A unit into a single motored one.  I am not sure what the benefit is to having two motors?  I think in order to properly utilize the two motors, one would need to fill in all dead air space with lead.  Then you would also need a heavy duty decoder as well and of course some lead removal.  I kind of think these guys would be pretty good pullers in their own right, especially if you change out the magnets to neodymium ones. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 11:30:38 -0500 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit   Watch this space.   How is that for a grabber?   I have two first generation Mantua\Tyco sharks (two motors no less) and a 2nd generation Tyco variant that uses the same shell as the HT models. I think I also have an original, unused HT shell along with a drive or two and some HT AAR type “B” sideframes. I will get them out of storage a take some photos to post to the group, hopefully this weekend (my weekend ends Sunday as I do have to work Monday). I also have a virgin Mantua “B” unit kit.   I used to have some virgin wool slacks but I got into them.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 10:25 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit           I can't be sure if the shells are from the same die, I haven't examined that closely.  I can say that the Hobbytown  Shark lacks the huge stalactite of a mounting boss in the center of the shell.  It's a major pain if you want to use a normal drive with a nice big single motor.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 19:54:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit   Jeff, HOSeeker shows Hobbytown Shark A and B unit bodies - part numbers 701 and 702. However, Howard doesn't show them on his web site. The Hobbytown E unit shells are all gone as well. (The Cary E unit shells are much better detailed, anyway.) He does show Alco FA, FB and PA shells, as well as body parts for the Alco RS-3 still being available.   Dennis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22873	From: John Hagen	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Re: Hobbytown F7 kit

Well,   That said the dual-motored pull like, well, a good, heavy (Probably with an original Cary shell as opposed to the later Bowser/Cary shells) Hobbytown F unit. I like them as such and have now plans to remove any motors albeit I will likely eventually sell one of them. It took me 60 years to finally come up with one at a price I could afford. Then I found a much lower priced one on eBay that was not advertised as a dual motored model. I knew what to look for and got it with little competition.   But why the hell I’d want two of them is a tad beyond me other than to get a very nice original box for the one I will keep.   The only thing with the dual motored units is the current draw. Better get the old Marn-O-Stat out (I have two). I would like to experiment with replacing the magnets with the new super-magnets is compelling but so are all the other projects I have waiting for to get some of them “round-to-its”.   I’m thinking the B unit just may end up with the last Mantua can motored, eight wheel drive, eight wheel pick-up and flywheel equipped drives. I have one of the F units and it runs really very well.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 11:53 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Hobbytown F7 kit     Hi John, I have a few of those first generation sharks myself.  :o)   I have 3  A units, one is dual motored and a B unit, plus a dummy chassis with the spreader and dummy trucks.  If I find a good first generation B unit body, I will convert it to a single motored one by changing the dual motored A unit into a single motored one.  I am not sure what the benefit is to having two motors?  I think in order to properly utilize the two motors, one would need to fill in all dead air space with lead.  Then you would also need a heavy duty decoder as well and of course some lead removal.  I kind of think these guys would be pretty good pullers in their own right, especially if you change out the magnets to neodymium ones. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22874	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/22/2014
Subject: Devore - Roundhouse Couplers

There is a lot of part with Devore - Roundhouse couplers in in the Package on currently eBay.  Item # 111361039154 with a great picture of the original package.  A great reference photo for those that care. I actually run a few cars equipped with these couplers. Not buying or bidding on this lot.  Just interesting history,  I guess these packages date from the 40's & 50's.  Still look good (the packages). Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22875	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/25/2014
Subject: StromBecKer "Rocket"

Attachments : Hi all, I just posted a video portrait of my latest acquisition, a surprisingly handsome powered StromBecKer Rock Island Rocket articulated train on YouTube: http://youtu.be/TZciBnNYwM4 A still photograph is also attached. The paint job and assembly is very good and the builder used Walthers diesel trucks which look suitable and not out of scale as would any number of regular four-wheeled passenger car trucks. For the power truck, the builder intended to use a late 50s Varney F unit assembly which came with the model, but I will try to find a suitable vintage Walthers power truck for it. **** Circa 1949, Walthers cataloged a package deal of the StromBecKer kit, a Walthers power truck and Walthers diesel truck side frames. I just narrowly missed losing this on eBay, but bid a few more dollars than I would've normally as finding all of those Walthers trucks these days would have been very difficult - and at this stage, I've enough kits waiting to be assembled that will last until through this entire decade! **** Does anyone have all of the different StromBecKer passenger train models? W. Jay W. Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22876	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/25/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

I've got some incomplete sets of The Rocket and finally got one with the TA parts. I plan to cast the single TA blank to allow me to have 2-3 of them. I have a couple of the TA wrappers for them. I have the B&O set still in the box. I'm looking to get some others. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On May 25, 2014, at 4:17 PM, "Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Hi all, I just posted a video portrait of my latest acquisition, a surprisingly handsome powered StromBecKer Rock Island Rocket articulated train on YouTube: http://youtu.be/TZciBnNYwM4 A still photograph is also attached. The paint job and assembly is very good and the builder used Walthers diesel trucks which look suitable and not out of scale as would any number of regular four-wheeled passenger car trucks. For the power truck, the builder intended to use a late 50s Varney F unit assembly which came with the model, but I will try to find a suitable vintage Walthers power truck for it. **** Circa 1949, Walthers cataloged a package deal of the StromBecKer kit, a Walthers power truck and Walthers diesel truck side frames. I just narrowly missed losing this on eBay, but bid a few more dollars than I would've normally as finding all of those Walthers trucks these days would have been very difficult - and at this stage, I've enough kits waiting to be assembled that will last until through this entire decade! **** Does anyone have all of the different StromBecKer passenger train models? W. Jay W. Sent from my iPhone <image.jpg>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22877	From: nvrr49	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

.blogspot.comGreat pick up Jay!  I believe that the Hobby Depot in Topeka, KS has one for sale.  As I recall, they wanted an arm and a leg for it.  Next time I am there, I will see what was included and post some picture here.    http://www.hobbydepottopeka.com/ http://www.hobbydepottopeka.com/ FOR ALL YOUR HOBBY NEEDS Stop by and visit with us! See our expanded store and product lines! 5628 SW 29th St. In BARRINGTON VILLAGE, Topeka, Kans... View on www.hobbydepottop... Preview by Yahoo   Kent in KC nvrr49.blogspot.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22878	From: erieberk	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

Jay, Great find. Yes, it was exactly the 1949 Walthers catalog that carried the power truck for the StromBecKer "Rocket." You may recall, I posted a message on this topic a few weeks ago, on May 5th. Walthers first offered power trucks especially fort this model as early as 1940. I'll try to forward that message (if it works) in case you missed it. I have the R-210 B&O "Columbian," and as a kid I remember building most of the "Historic" StromBecKer models back around 1947 or so, which included the Wm. Galloway & train, DeWitt Clinton & train and C&NW Pioneer & train. I believe they were close to S scale though; I don't quite remember. I also had fun building the Mikado and the various contemporary freight cars of that time; close to H0 scale (or at least advertised in their catalog sheets as H0) and were recommended to be able to run on H0 track by buying H0 gauge trucks. If you took care building these cars, they were somewhat presentable and you wouldn't mind including them with other wood and cardstock models like Varney or Comet cars. Ray Wetzel</HTML>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22879	From: erieberk	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Fwd: [vintageHO] StromBecKer Columbian

Attachments :

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22880	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

That looks very nicely done. I have a bunch of the cars from the RI set myself. Someone, a previous owner, bought a couple sets and made a longer train. He also spliced nameplates to make unique names "Bear Mount" "Bear Lake" among others. Plus he put a plastic dome on top one of the cars, which looked like a vacuum formed piece and was in such bad condition I removed it. The paint on my cars is a bit rough, but they run properly. Someday I'd like to do a cosmetic restoration. I did once scan the end pieces of the Strombecker UP passenger cars, and digitially touched them up for reprint, as I needed a bunch. I should have the artwork on one of my hard drives (My work bench desktop has four hard drives inside). If anyone needs it, I can share. Thanks -Steve Neubaum From: "Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:17 PM Subject: [vintageHO] StromBecKer "Rocket"   Hi all, I just posted a video portrait of my latest acquisition, a surprisingly handsome powered StromBecKer Rock Island Rocket articulated train on YouTube: http://youtu.be/TZciBnNYwM4 A still photograph is also attached. The paint job and assembly is very good and the builder used Walthers diesel trucks which look suitable and not out of scale as would any number of regular four-wheeled passenger car trucks. For the power truck, the builder intended to use a late 50s Varney F unit assembly which came with the model, but I will try to find a suitable vintage Walthers power truck for it. **** Circa 1949, Walthers cataloged a package deal of the StromBecKer kit, a Walthers power truck and Walthers diesel truck side frames. I just narrowly missed losing this on eBay, but bid a few more dollars than I would've normally as finding all of those Walthers trucks these days would have been very difficult - and at this stage, I've enough kits waiting to be assembled that will last until through this entire decade! **** Does anyone have all of the different StromBecKer passenger train models? W. Jay W. Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22881	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

That is an unusually well done Rocket. My only comments would be to definitely lower all of the cars and locomotive so that the truck frames are at  proper heights. The prototype train had only two of the three cars articulated, and the trucks were tucked behind intact skirts.  The locomotive will not pull the train without added weight.  I have handled this problem by drilling out holes in the locomotive block and filling them with lead in a manner that the weight improves traction. Denny Denny S. Anspach Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22882	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

Attachments : Hi Ray W., Thanks for the kind words regarding The Rocket and the info about your May 5 post. That was around the time we had opened the Township Museum in Pompton Plains Station for the ELHS group and I must confess I missed about four days of posts here! I recently purchased another U-240 power truck – for project undetermined – it was well used, and I still have to put the meter to it to find out what the problem is, so that might be a possibility for The Rocket. Likely that 6 V motor was run on 12 V too long! A photo of it is attached. I am also still working on my illustrated chronological guide to early Walthers motive power, trucks, etc. and finally have all of their HO catalogs and some additional printed matter, so have to put some time into that as well. (I also located in earliest version of the Taylor made C&NW gas electric with cast bronze front and Armite sites, as well as the first compose with sandcast bronze frame.) W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22883	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

Hi Denny A., The skilled modeler who built The Rocket I just acquired did "weight" the locomotive as suggested, and hid the weight before attaching the upper section of the locomotive body during construction. He also followed the instructions in the kit that advised to carve out the lower body flange to permit the trucks to turn on a shorter radius track. But, as you pointed out he articulated the rear car where the instructions correctly pointed out it had two conventionally mounted trucks. Thanks for the suggestion about lowering the locomotive and car bodies, which I will pursue. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22884	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

Hi, Steve N., Kent, and Mike B, Good to hear we have some additional StromBecKer Rocket survivors in good hands out there! Steve, that vacuum formed Vista-dome would seem to me to be the original Herkimer dome. It was still available from them a year or two ago, as well as a second-generation, molded hard plastic dome. Varney also sold a molded hard plastic accessory add-on dome as well, but from your description I would guess that yours was the original Herkimer. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22885	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

I wonder how we can power The Rocket today?  Maybe with the Walthers Trainset Alco FA-1 chassis, or its parts modded to have the right truck bolster distance for a two-truck power chassis? There is always the 2/3 of a chassis method used for a single powered truck in the model. Other ways would be nice. But as I see it, today those parts are the ones that can be most easily found. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On May 26, 2014, at 3:44 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: Hi, Steve N., Kent, and Mike B, Good to hear we have some additional StromBecKer Rocket survivors in good hands out there! Steve, that vacuum formed Vista-dome would seem to me to be the original Herkimer dome. It was still available from them a year or two ago, as well as a second-generation, molded hard plastic dome. Varney also sold a molded hard plastic accessory add-on dome as well, but from your description I would guess that yours was the original Herkimer. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22886	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: New Strombecker

I didn't want to mention it earlier until I was certain. But I've been tracking some of the early Strombecker 4-2-0 Pioneers in eBay the last few days and managed to win them last night. First is a built-up engine and tender that looks like it only needs some fresh paint to revive it. Second is an unbuilt kit that includes one of the brightly colored passenger cars. Here are the eBay numbers for anyone that wants to look at the auction images on a past auction search. PIONEER HO SCALE LOCOMOTIVE KIT--NO. 100--MADE OF WOOD...(231105275321) STROMBECKER HO SCALE PIONEER C.&N.W. WOOD MODEL KIT--ITEM... (231105278650) I'm not sure these links will survive, but here they are for the original listings http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIONEER-HO-SCALE-LOCOMOTIVE-KIT-NO-100-MADE-OF-WOOD-/231105275321?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=VUmOY4%252Ftg8EVRuCIyOGYKNkCM48%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc http://www.ebay.com/itm/STROMBECKER-HO-SCALE-PIONEER-C-N-W-WOOD-MODEL-KIT-ITEM-1848-NT-/231105278650?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=VUmOY4%252Ftg8EVRuCIyOGYKNkCM48%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc Since I wasn't sure I could win these, I made copies of the auction images with an appreciation for the clean view of the passenger car side and end in the kit. I thought if nothing else, I could make a photo-real version of the model one day. Which reminds me that I still have to do that for a request on the Strombecker B&O streamliner passenger set. I've not forgotten as much as not yet done that. I'll get that done this week. I find the cut-out tender sides with its wheel mounts to be a fascinating solution to building this model and am looking forward to learning how Strombecker designed the 'T' boiler to go together. I can see the straight section of the boiler with it's dome footings in the kit image. It is going to be something on the exciting side to see how the kit is supposed to go together. I've long had a pair of the old O-Lin plastic 4-2-0's that can to the swap meet with the boiler partly collapsed from improper gluing. Some months ago I was able to win a complete and unbuilt kit from eBay. One of life's temptations is to cast up a few of those 4-2-0's and make operating models of them. Now that I have one of the correct passenger cars coming my way as well; I just may get the project going. It is more of a photo-real template for the car, that seems to be well enough by itself. The best use I have for the kit and the built-up engine is to put both of the them on display with modern-made versions of them. I won't be building the kit as much as using the parts as patterns to make modern material duplicates. Even then, I'd make duplicate parts as patterns so as not to mess up the original kit parts. A pipe dream for now, with a promise to get some special tooling into my hands very, very soon. I placed an order through eBay for some very tiny motor and gearbox drives, Hold your first finger out straight and they are just a bit longer than your first segment of that finger. They are only 5-vt drives and would be nice to use if only temporarily in that very tiny tender. I'll move to better 12-vt drives in that tiny tender, or in a following [power] car. It will still be a hoot to rig up a half dozen or so of The 4-2-0 Pioneers for operation. If I can manage it, these will appear as printable files on Shapeways.com around the end of the year. These little Gems should be better available to modelers. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22887	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Strombecker

Attachments : Great wins, the links worked fine.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, May 26, 2014 6:49 PM To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] New Strombecker     I didn't want to mention it earlier until I was certain. But I've been tracking some of the early Strombecker 4-2-0 Pioneers in eBay the last few days and managed to win them last night. First is a built-up engine and tender that looks like it only needs some fresh paint to revive it. Second is an unbuilt kit that includes one of the brightly colored passenger cars. Here are the eBay numbers for anyone that wants to look at the auction images on a past auction search. PIONEER HO SCALE LOCOMOTIVE KIT--NO. 100--MADE OF WOOD...(231105275321) STROMBECKER HO SCALE PIONEER C.&N.W. WOOD MODEL KIT--ITEM... (231105278650) I'm not sure these links will survive, but here they are for the original listings http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIONEER-HO-SCALE-LOCOMOTIVE-KIT-NO-100-MADE-OF-WOOD-/231105275321?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=VUmOY4%252Ftg8EVRuCIyOGYKNkCM48%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc http://www.ebay.com/itm/STROMBECKER-HO-SCALE-PIONEER-C-N-W-WOOD-MODEL-KIT-ITEM-1848-NT-/231105278650?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=VUmOY4%252Ftg8EVRuCIyOGYKNkCM48%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc Since I wasn't sure I could win these, I made copies of the auction images with an appreciation for the clean view of the passenger car side and end in the kit. I thought if nothing else, I could make a photo-real version of the model one day. Which reminds me that I still have to do that for a request on the Strombecker B&O streamliner passenger set. I've not forgotten as much as not yet done that. I'll get that done this week. I find the cut-out tender sides with its wheel mounts to be a fascinating solution to building this model and am looking forward to learning how Strombecker designed the 'T' boiler to go together. I can see the straight section of the boiler with it's dome footings in the kit image. It is going to be something on the exciting side to see how the kit is supposed to go together. I've long had a pair of the old O-Lin plastic 4-2-0's that can to the swap meet with the boiler partly collapsed from improper gluing. Some months ago I was able to win a complete and unbuilt kit from eBay. One of life's temptations is to cast up a few of those 4-2-0's and make operating models of them. Now that I have one of the correct passenger cars coming my way as well; I just may get the project going. It is more of a photo-real template for the car, that seems to be well enough by itself. The best use I have for the kit and the built-up engine is to put both of the them on display with modern-made versions of them. I won't be building the kit as much as using the parts as patterns to make modern material duplicates. Even then, I'd make duplicate parts as patterns so as not to mess up the original kit parts. A pipe dream for now, with a promise to get some special tooling into my hands very, very soon. I placed an order through eBay for some very tiny motor and gearbox drives, Hold your first finger out straight and they are just a bit longer than your first segment of that finger. They are only 5-vt drives and would be nice to use if only temporarily in that very tiny tender. I'll move to better 12-vt drives in that tiny tender, or in a following [power] car. It will still be a hoot to rig up a half dozen or so of The 4-2-0 Pioneers for operation. If I can manage it, these will appear as printable files on Shapeways.com around the end of the year. These little Gems should be better available to modelers. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22888	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Strombecker

They are due to arrive by the end of this week. Soon after I will make a photo study of the Strombecker and O-Lin versions of the locomotives along with the Strombecker early era coach. The Strombecker wood and near-photo-real construction of the kits would still work well with sheet wood or sheet styrene and home-computer printing today. Many of the parts can be laid out like a construction template. I think a part of Vintage modeling is also building in the ways of the old kits to have models that you otherwise couldn't have. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On May 26, 2014, at 6:33 PM, 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > Great wins, the links worked fine. > > Take care, > Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at > https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361 > > >> >> >> From: Mike Bauers >> >> >> I didn't want to mention it earlier until I was certain. >> >> But I've been tracking some of the early Strombecker 4-2-0 Pioneers >> in >> eBay the last few days and managed to win them last night. >> > > ...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22889	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Strombecker

Mike, Please note these are O Gauge kits/Models not HO. See the kit box. Garry Spear On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I didn't want to mention it earlier until I was certain. But I've been tracking some of the early Strombecker 4-2-0 Pioneers in eBay the last few days and managed to win them last night. First is a built-up engine and tender that looks like it only needs some fresh paint to revive it. Second is an unbuilt kit that includes one of the brightly colored passenger cars. Here are the eBay numbers for anyone that wants to look at the auction images on a past auction search. PIONEER HO SCALE LOCOMOTIVE KIT--NO. 100--MADE OF WOOD...(231105275321) STROMBECKER HO SCALE PIONEER C.&N.W. WOOD MODEL KIT--ITEM... (231105278650) I'm not sure these links will survive, but here they are for the original listings http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIONEER-HO-SCALE-LOCOMOTIVE-KIT-NO-100-MADE-OF-WOOD-/231105275321?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=VUmOY4%252Ftg8EVRuCIyOGYKNkCM48%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc http://www.ebay.com/itm/STROMBECKER-HO-SCALE-PIONEER-C-N-W-WOOD-MODEL-KIT-ITEM-1848-NT-/231105278650?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=VUmOY4%252Ftg8EVRuCIyOGYKNkCM48%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc Since I wasn't sure I could win these, I made copies of the auction images with an appreciation for the clean view of the passenger car side and end in the kit. I thought if nothing else, I could make a photo-real version of the model one day. Which reminds me that I still have to do that for a request on the Strombecker B&O streamliner passenger set. I've not forgotten as much as not yet done that. I'll get that done this week. I find the cut-out tender sides with its wheel mounts to be a fascinating solution to building this model and am looking forward to learning how Strombecker designed the 'T' boiler to go together. I can see the straight section of the boiler with it's dome footings in the kit image. It is going to be something on the exciting side to see how the kit is supposed to go together. I've long had a pair of the old O-Lin plastic 4-2-0's that can to the swap meet with the boiler partly collapsed from improper gluing. Some months ago I was able to win a complete and unbuilt kit from eBay. One of life's temptations is to cast up a few of those 4-2-0's and make operating models of them. Now that I have one of the correct passenger cars coming my way as well; I just may get the project going. It is more of a photo-real template for the car, that seems to be well enough by itself. The best use I have for the kit and the built-up engine is to put both of the them on display with modern-made versions of them. I won't be building the kit as much as using the parts as patterns to make modern material duplicates. Even then, I'd make duplicate parts as patterns so as not to mess up the original kit parts. A pipe dream for now, with a promise to get some special tooling into my hands very, very soon. I placed an order through eBay for some very tiny motor and gearbox drives, Hold your first finger out straight and they are just a bit longer than your first segment of that finger. They are only 5-vt drives and would be nice to use if only temporarily in that very tiny tender. I'll move to better 12-vt drives in that tiny tender, or in a following [power] car. It will still be a hoot to rig up a half dozen or so of The 4-2-0 Pioneers for operation. If I can manage it, these will appear as printable files on Shapeways.com around the end of the year. These little Gems should be better available to modelers. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22890	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Strombecker

Well that's an Okay surprise. Using them as templates and display still means I get HO and HO-narrow out of them. The flatbed scanner and the computer will make the needed adjustments. I can use the HO scale O-Lin Pioneer 4-2-0 to match the rework to the correct size. In general O to HO is not a problem to convert when you plan to re-make them in contemporary materials. The brightly illustrated car side and ends will photo-print nicely in the smaller scale. I plan to have them laser cut by Fall if I don't divert to making RTV casts of the re-works, first. At least I can soon photo-print, hand-cut, and assemble them in HO with photo-card or ordinary printed card-stock. It will still be worthwhile fun! Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On May 26, 2014, at 8:15 PM, Garry Spear garrettspear@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > Mike, > > Please note these are O Gauge kits/Models not HO. > > See the kit box. > > Garry Spear > > > On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... > [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>wrote: > > I didn't want to mention it earlier until I was certain. > > But I've been tracking some of the early Strombecker 4-2-0 Pioneers in > eBay the last few days and managed to win them last night. > > First is a built-up engine and tender that looks like it only needs > some fresh paint to revive it. > > Second is an unbuilt kit that includes one of the brightly colored > passenger cars. > > Here are the eBay numbers for anyone that wants to look at the auction > images on a past auction search. > > PIONEER HO SCALE LOCOMOTIVE KIT--NO. 100--MADE OF WOOD... > (231105275321) > > STROMBECKER HO SCALE PIONEER C.&N.W. WOOD MODEL KIT--ITEM... > (231105278650) > ..............

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22891	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

This has always been a very appealing and attractive model, and undoubtedly, of all the StromBecker models, it has been the most popular for those who have actually converted StromBecker models for actual use.  As to current power truck options,  the shorter wheelbase power trucks from any one of the switcher models would probably do best.  I  am not next to my own model(s) so cannot be exact, but to the extent that memory serves, these models are all smaller and shorter than the prototypes (1/8" scale), and the nominal wheelbase of the power truck scaled to these models would be considerably less than those from standard diesel road locomotives. The Walthers power truck has a relatively short wheelbase (sized for interurban models), and it does look just right under the TA.  If the skirts are left intact (or reconstructed), the fact that the prominent outside lower truck equalizer that characterized the the prototype trucks is absent will be almost unnoticed. OR...just leave off the side frames altogether. Also, if memory serves, both the Walthers and most current switcher trucks have 33" wheels, which would make it even easier to mount at the correct height.  Another option is a short wheelbase Lindsay power truck.  Almost all Lindsay have failed (cracked) axle gears, but.... NWSL has the replacements.     Pragmatically, the shorter wheelbase power truck tucked behind the skirts would also actually allow the locomotive to go around most of our curves!  My Rocket models have Varney cast metal express reefer trucks. They do roll like stone sleds through deep sand, but...they do look good, and they will fit and swivel behind hollowed-out skirts. In the many years during my childhood in the '40s that my family almost commuted between our Chicago home and visits to extended family and a second home in Iowa, we would pass by the StromBecker "factory" in Moline, IL. That was always exciting, but despite loud importuning, our parents would never stop to inquire about a "tour".   Denny   Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22892	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

I had a Strombecker engine kit, decades ago, but don’t remember which one.  I was fascinated with it. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22893	From: Denis Long	Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

Hello Mike, I believe the one I had, was the RI.  I think it was not powered. By the way, FP trucks, are supposed to be accurate for the TA. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22894	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/27/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

Hi Dennis, I had thought I saw drop equalizer AAR type B-trucks on the TA's much like the Alco FA locomotives had. I'm not sure what you mean by FP trucks. Could you please expand on that short-hand name? Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On May 27, 2014, at 10:53 AM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > Hello Mike, > I believe the one I had, was the RI. I think it was not powered. > By the way, FP trucks, are supposed to be accurate for the TA. > Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22895	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

The drop equalizer AAR trucks commonly seen under Alco road switchers and FAs and Bs are not the same as the trucks under the EMD TA, despite sharing the prominent drop equalizers.   Although I am away from all my chairside sources, and  am having to draw from memory, the AAR trucks have a significantly longer wheel base, i.e. 8-1/2 or 9' vs. 7-1/2 or 8' for the TA. Perhaps both were derived from the same truck design.  Walthers made an entire line of cast metal side frames for their power truck- almost exclusively Brill, MCB, Baldwin, etc. traction prototypes to be used under their traction and gas electric models,.  Although in a pinch, any might do, the side frames that I long ago picked for this project were "Commonwealth",  as I recall.  However, I have noticed over the years that many, if not most modelers who have actively used the Walthers power truck under the StromBecker TA seem to have done so without any side frames. This is little noticed because the truck is hidden behind the skirts, and...the absence of the side frames coupled to the Walthers short wheelbase (6-1/2-7'?) makes it easy for this locomotive to negotiate curves without the skirts having to undergo extensive surgery to create clearance.  Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Okoboji, IA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22896	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: StromBecKer "Rocket"

Thanks Denny, and guys It looks like a new power chassis for the TA can be close if the newer SW model parts are used with their inboard bearings and their separate plastic side frames. The switcher trucks are 8-foot wheelbase as I recall, while the 'road' engines have 9-foot wheelbase trucks. On those mechs, the side-frames are simple decorations and can be replaced with something more TA-like. The SW frame can't be used as-is. But that's fixable. Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On May 28, 2014, at 7:46 AM, Denny Anspach danspachmd@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > The drop equalizer AAR trucks commonly seen under Alco road switchers and FAs and Bs are not the same as the trucks under the EMD TA, despite sharing the prominent drop equalizers. Although I am away from all my chairside sources, and am having to draw from memory, the AAR trucks have a significantly longer wheel base, i.e. 8-1/2 or 9' vs. 7-1/2 or 8' for the TA. Perhaps both were derived from the same truck design. > > Walthers made an entire line of cast metal side frames for their power truck- almost exclusively Brill, MCB, Baldwin, etc. traction prototypes to be used under their traction and gas electric models,. Although in a pinch, any might do, the side frames that I long ago picked for this project were "Commonwealth", as I recall. > > However, I have noticed over the years that many, if not most modelers who have actively used the Walthers power truck under the StromBecker TA seem to have done so without any side frames. This is little noticed because the truck is hidden behind the skirts, and...the absence of the side frames coupled to the Walthers short wheelbase (6-1/2-7'?) makes it easy for this locomotive to negotiate curves without the skirts having to undergo extensive surgery to create clearance. > > Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22897	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Massimo Vignelli Dies

Hi all, here's a link to today's news from the Times concerning the death of the designer Massimo Vignelli today at 83. Vignelli was responsible for the controversial redesign of the subway maps in the 1970s as well as designing a uniform set of standards for subway signs and even car numbers. This past winter at the Strand bookstore, I came across a advance readers edition – uncorrected proof of the book Helvetica and the New York City Subway System by Paul Shaw which tells the interesting story. Until reading that book I had not realized that the designers influence even affected the change in the typeface of the subway car numbers. For example the numbers are a different typeface on the as built R-32's than was used on the same cars when they were rebuilt. The link to the obituary article appears below. W. Jay W. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/business/massimo-vignelli-a-modernist-graphic-designer-dies-at-83.html?_r=0&referrer=

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22898	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 5/28/2014
Subject: Re: Massimo Vignelli Dies

Thank you for the info! Walter On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hi all, here's a link to today's news from the Times concerning the death of the designer Massimo Vignelli today at 83. Vignelli was responsible for the controversial redesign of the subway maps in the 1970s as well as designing a uniform set of standards for subway signs and even car numbers. This past winter at the Strand bookstore, I came across a advance readers edition – uncorrected proof of the book Helvetica and the New York City Subway System by Paul Shaw which tells the interesting story. Until reading that book I had not realized that the designers influence even affected the change in the typeface of the subway car numbers. For example the numbers are a different typeface on the as built R-32's than was used on the same cars when they were rebuilt. The link to the obituary article appears below. W. Jay W. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/business/massimo-vignelli-a-modernist-graphic-designer-dies-at-83.html?_r=0&referrer= -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22899	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Old Pioneer was Re: [vintageHO] New Strombecker

Attachments : Wood Pioneer boiler.JPG The Pioneer kit and built just arrived. The kit is O-scale, as spotted by the Eagle Eyed Gary. Which is still okay. I found it to be worth while just by examining how they made the T-boiler for it. The firebox on the T is square and the dome of the T-boiler is round. They made it by a separate horizontal section and turning the domed- top, squared firebox section in a lathe from a squared block I'm thinking it would be a good thing to do the same in HO with a harder wood like maple. The kit used something like a soft pine. They also notched or shaped the block to have the ash-pan flares on the bottom of the boiler. The assembled wood HO Pioneer turned out to one of the plastic and metal O-Lin HO models, assembled very well with nice detailing. If the O-Lin is more accurate, the lower boiler has a flat-flare at the front ash-pan and its round at the back of the ash-pan. Still, the secret to making that type of boiler seems to be turning a square block to make the part, if you're going to make it by conventional tools. You see, I was able to get an unbuilt O-Lin some time ago and its reserved to let me make castings from it and later-on make 3d prints of them through Shapeways. Those will be Winter projects for me. I'll just make certain I get some sticks of maple from Menards the next time I'm near the place. I'm moving towards making a number of quite old 4-4-0's in HO, first based on the Mantua General specs as far as re-using some of the drive parts. Until now, I didn't have a good idea of how to make a master or one-off of the T-boilers that several of the oldsters had. I don't know if the like are Vintage models as defined by this e-list. I know I'll have great problems finding O-Lin kits suitable to complete as operating models. Between this StromBecker O-scale kit and the HO scale O-Lin kit and their refugees found in the Swaps, I should be able to have some operating HO re-born Pioneers and the correct early coaches as translated from the O-scale Pioneer kit into HO scale about this time next year with what else is going on for me. I'll attach a snap of the wood StromBecker boiler. Just making and detailing a similar boiler for the larger HO 4-4-0 of the same era will be a fun thing for a couple of evenings I keep losing out on the powered brass Kemtron HO pioneers that appear in eBay and the like, I'm not letting that stop me from getting that sort of thing into operation. attachment below.... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee.Wi > Well that's an Okay surprise. > > Using them as templates and display still means I get HO and HO- > narrow out of them. The flatbed scanner and the computer will make > the needed adjustments. > > I can use the HO scale O-Lin Pioneer 4-2-0 to match the rework to > the correct size. In general O to HO is not a problem to convert > when you plan to re-make them in contemporary materials. The > brightly illustrated car side and ends will photo-print nicely in > the smaller scale. > > I plan to have them laser cut by Fall if I don't divert to making > RTV casts of the re-works, first. > > At least I can soon photo-print, hand-cut, and assemble them in HO > with photo-card or ordinary printed card-stock. > > It will still be worthwhile fun! > > Best to Ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > > On May 26, 2014, at 8:15 PM, Garry Spear garrettspear@... > [vintageHO] wrote: > >> >> >> Mike, >> >> Please note these are O Gauge kits/Models not HO. >> >> See the kit box. >> >> Garry Spear >> >> >> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... >> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>wrote: >> >> I didn't want to mention it earlier until I was certain. >> >> But I've been tracking some of the early Strombecker 4-2-0 Pioneers >> in >> eBay the last few days and managed to win them last night. >> >> First is a built-up engine and tender that looks like it only needs >> some fresh paint to revive it. >> >> Second is an unbuilt kit that includes one of the brightly colored >> passenger cars. >> >> Here are the eBay numbers for anyone that wants to look at the >> auction >> images on a past auction search. >> >> PIONEER HO SCALE LOCOMOTIVE KIT--NO. 100--MADE OF WOOD... >> (231105275321) >> >> STROMBECKER HO SCALE PIONEER C.&N.W. WOOD MODEL KIT--ITEM... >> (231105278650) >> > ..............

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22900	From: trainliker	Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old Pioneer was Re: [vintageHO] New Strombecker [1 Attachment]

You might want to look at the locomotives carved by Mooney Swarther.  I have seen them in person.  Rather nice.  Wood used was apparantly walnut for some, ebony for others (ivory for details).   Here is their site which has a gallery showing just some of the locomotives:   http://warthers.com/   The Internet Craftsmanship Museum also has a section on his work with further photos:   http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Warther.htm   (Getting a little off topic for vintageHO, but there are vast number of things to see at this site which also has a physical museum put together by the recently deceased founder of Sherline, maker of small lathes and mills.)   Chuck Kinzer       ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 11:37 AM Subject: Old Pioneer was Re: [vintageHO] New Strombecker [1 Attachment]   The Pioneer kit and built just arrived. The kit is O-scale, as spotted by the Eagle Eyed Gary. Which is still okay. I found it to be worth while just by examining how they made the T-boiler for it. The firebox on the T is square and the dome of the T-boiler is round. They made it by a separate horizontal section and turning the domed- top, squared firebox section in a lathe from a squared block I'm thinking it would be a good thing to do the same in HO with a harder wood like maple. The kit used something like a soft pine. They also notched or shaped the block to have the ash-pan flares on the bottom of the boiler. The assembled wood HO Pioneer turned out to one of the plastic and metal O-Lin HO models, assembled very well with nice detailing. If the O-Lin is more accurate, the lower boiler has a flat-flare at the front ash-pan and its round at the back of the ash-pan. Still, the secret to making that type of boiler seems to be turning a square block to make the part, if you're going to make it by conventional tools. You see, I was able to get an unbuilt O-Lin some time ago and its reserved to let me make castings from it and later-on make 3d prints of them through Shapeways. Those will be Winter projects for me. I'll just make certain I get some sticks of maple from Menards the next time I'm near the place. I'm moving towards making a number of quite old 4-4-0's in HO, first based on the Mantua General specs as far as re-using some of the drive parts. Until now, I didn't have a good idea of how to make a master or one-off of the T-boilers that several of the oldsters had. I don't know if the like are Vintage models as defined by this e-list. I know I'll have great problems finding O-Lin kits suitable to complete as operating models. Between this StromBecker O-scale kit and the HO scale O-Lin kit and their refugees found in the Swaps, I should be able to have some operating HO re-born Pioneers and the correct early coaches as translated from the O-scale Pioneer kit into HO scale about this time next year with what else is going on for me. I'll attach a snap of the wood StromBecker boiler. Just making and detailing a similar boiler for the larger HO 4-4-0 of the same era will be a fun thing for a couple of evenings I keep losing out on the powered brass Kemtron HO pioneers that appear in eBay and the like, I'm not letting that stop me from getting that sort of thing into operation. attachment below.... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee.Wi > Well that's an Okay surprise. > > Using them as templates and display still means I get HO and HO- > narrow out of them. The flatbed scanner and the computer will make > the needed adjustments. > > I can use the HO scale O-Lin Pioneer 4-2-0 to match the rework to > the correct size. In general O to HO is not a problem to convert > when you plan to re-make them in contemporary materials. The > brightly illustrated car side and ends will photo-print nicely in > the smaller scale. > > I plan to have them laser cut by Fall if I don't divert to making > RTV casts of the re-works, first. > > At least I can soon photo-print, hand-cut, and assemble them in HO > with photo-card or ordinary printed card-stock. > > It will still be worthwhile fun! > > Best to Ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > > On May 26, 2014, at 8:15 PM, Garry Spear garrettspear@... > [vintageHO] wrote: > >> >> >> Mike, >> >> Please note these are O Gauge kits/Models not HO. >> >> See the kit box. >> >> Garry Spear >> >> >> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... >> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>wrote: >> >> I didn't want to mention it earlier until I was certain. >> >> But I've been tracking some of the early Strombecker 4-2-0 Pioneers >> in >> eBay the last few days and managed to win them last night. >> >> First is a built-up engine and tender that looks like it only needs >> some fresh paint to revive it. >> >> Second is an unbuilt kit that includes one of the brightly colored >> passenger cars. >> >> Here are the eBay numbers for anyone that wants to look at the >> auction >> images on a past auction search. >> >> PIONEER HO SCALE LOCOMOTIVE KIT--NO. 100--MADE OF WOOD... >> (231105275321) >> >> STROMBECKER HO SCALE PIONEER C.&N.W. WOOD MODEL KIT--ITEM... >> (231105278650) >> > ..............

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22901	From: Garry Spear	Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old Pioneer was Re: [vintageHO] New Strombecker [1 Attachment]

Thanks for the complement (Eagle Eyed Gary), but in all honesty I collect older trains and have one in my collection.  So, I see it almost every time I look at the collection.  Also, By the Way I have the two cars the make up the set.  Two small gondolas about the size of the tender. Eagle Eyed Gary Spear  On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from Mike Bauers included below] The Pioneer kit and built just arrived. The kit is O-scale, as spotted by the Eagle Eyed Gary. Which is still okay. I found it to be worth while just by examining how they made the T-boiler for it. The firebox on the T is square and the dome of the T-boiler is round. They made it by a separate horizontal section and turning the domed- top, squared firebox section in a lathe from a squared block I'm thinking it would be a good thing to do the same in HO with a harder wood like maple. The kit used something like a soft pine. They also notched or shaped the block to have the ash-pan flares on the bottom of the boiler. The assembled wood HO Pioneer turned out to one of the plastic and metal O-Lin HO models, assembled very well with nice detailing. If the O-Lin is more accurate, the lower boiler has a flat-flare at the front ash-pan and its round at the back of the ash-pan. Still, the secret to making that type of boiler seems to be turning a square block to make the part, if you're going to make it by conventional tools. You see, I was able to get an unbuilt O-Lin some time ago and its reserved to let me make castings from it and later-on make 3d prints of them through Shapeways. Those will be Winter projects for me. I'll just make certain I get some sticks of maple from Menards the next time I'm near the place. I'm moving towards making a number of quite old 4-4-0's in HO, first based on the Mantua General specs as far as re-using some of the drive parts. Until now, I didn't have a good idea of how to make a master or one-off of the T-boilers that several of the oldsters had. I don't know if the like are Vintage models as defined by this e-list. I know I'll have great problems finding O-Lin kits suitable to complete as operating models. Between this StromBecker O-scale kit and the HO scale O-Lin kit and their refugees found in the Swaps, I should be able to have some operating HO re-born Pioneers and the correct early coaches as translated from the O-scale Pioneer kit into HO scale about this time next year with what else is going on for me. I'll attach a snap of the wood StromBecker boiler. Just making and detailing a similar boiler for the larger HO 4-4-0 of the same era will be a fun thing for a couple of evenings I keep losing out on the powered brass Kemtron HO pioneers that appear in eBay and the like, I'm not letting that stop me from getting that sort of thing into operation. attachment below.... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee.Wi > Well that's an Okay surprise. > > Using them as templates and display still means I get HO and HO- > narrow out of them. The flatbed scanner and the computer will make > the needed adjustments. > > I can use the HO scale O-Lin Pioneer 4-2-0 to match the rework to > the correct size. In general O to HO is not a problem to convert > when you plan to re-make them in contemporary materials. The > brightly illustrated car side and ends will photo-print nicely in > the smaller scale. > > I plan to have them laser cut by Fall if I don't divert to making > RTV casts of the re-works, first. > > At least I can soon photo-print, hand-cut, and assemble them in HO > with photo-card or ordinary printed card-stock. > > It will still be worthwhile fun! > > Best to Ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > > On May 26, 2014, at 8:15 PM, Garry Spear garrettspear@... > [vintageHO] wrote: > >> >> >> Mike, >> >> Please note these are O Gauge kits/Models not HO. >> >> See the kit box. >> >> Garry Spear >> >> >> On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... >> [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>wrote: >> >> I didn't want to mention it earlier until I was certain. >> >> But I've been tracking some of the early Strombecker 4-2-0 Pioneers >> in >> eBay the last few days and managed to win them last night. >> >> First is a built-up engine and tender that looks like it only needs >> some fresh paint to revive it. >> >> Second is an unbuilt kit that includes one of the brightly colored >> passenger cars. >> >> Here are the eBay numbers for anyone that wants to look at the >> auction >> images on a past auction search. >> >> PIONEER HO SCALE LOCOMOTIVE KIT--NO. 100--MADE OF WOOD... >> (231105275321) >> >> STROMBECKER HO SCALE PIONEER C.&N.W. WOOD MODEL KIT--ITEM... >> (231105278650) >> > ..............

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22902	From: the_plainsman	Date: 5/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old Pioneer was Re: [vintageHO] New Strombecker [1 Attachment]

Hi Chuck K., Thanks for the links on Warthers craftsmanship. My dad, who was in the NYSME in the 1940s, was delighted in 1970 when the Model Railroader article was published about him and his remarkable models. Dad had become aware of him back in the day and had always remembered the man's craftsmanship and carving ability. W Jay W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22903	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/4/2014
Subject: Last Night's Haul

Just a quick note before I pack up the car and head for Round Rock, TX for the LSR convention. At last night's meeting of the San Jacinto Model Railroad Club (SJMRRC, Houston) there was a variety of things available from 2 people that had passed away recently. One set was mostly books and magazines, from which I took a Jan. '86 RMC. I also found in the clutter a 1941 edition of The Model Railroad Cyclopedia by Kalmbach. This is a wonderful collection of prototype pictures and plans for locomotives, passenger cars, rolling stock, lineside equipment, trolley and catenary wiring, bridges and trestles and whatever else you might imagine except for structures. Very few structures beyond a roundhouse and water tank. The other batch of stuff was some HO gauge items from an S gauger. Someone said it was stuff that someone else had given to him and was just stashed away. I found a box with instructions for a Globe refrigerator car. In the box is an SFRD reefer nearly complete except for trucks and couplers. Looks like very nice work on this. There also appears to be most, if not all, of the parts for a second car. The wood floor and ends have already been glued, and there's metal sides, roof and end pieces plus underbody details. The sides are painted for NYC Pacemaker service. I'll have to see what I can do with this. The other item probably post-dates this group but I'll mention it anyway. It's a Suncoast Models modern grain elevator, which is just a box full of cardboard tubes, sticks and styrene. -- Rick Jones "Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on 'I am not too sure.'" - H.L. Mencken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22904	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/5/2014
Subject: Re: Last Night's Haul

Hi Rick J., it's good when relatives of a departed return their loved ones favorite things back to the hobby either through clubs or even eBay, as those objects Lavonn for others to enjoy. Looks like you found the number of interesting items, but my favorite is that 1941 Model Railroader Cyclopedia. That is the only model railroading book I grew up with during the 1950s until I began subscribing to MR has a young teen in the early to mid-1960s. Since it was my dad's, and resided in the book case. I remember I had to ask permission in my youngest days to bring it out and study it, unfolding those large plates and each locomotive drawing carefully. It's amazing how many manufacturers later use those plans for their products in the late 40s and early 50s and in some cases into the early 60s. Many drawings by Lynn Wescott and Frank Taylor, too. I still use it as a resource especially the photographs. You'll recognize one of the small locomotives the saddle tank that Athearn used to create their "little monster" tank engine. There's a funny story about a liberty that Westcott took with the drawing - think I read about that in the Greenberg answering guide or maybe it was here. Anyway that book was a nice find and Worthwild to have in any vintage HL operators library. W. Jay W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22905	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 6/9/2014
Subject: Aluminum Cast Alco PA

Attachments : image-22905.jpg Hi All, Here is my newest acquisition, a cast aluminum ALCO PA unit. For comparison, picture behind it is a cast bronze Cambron Alco PA. Unlike the other Cambron Alco and EMD castings I have, there is no marking whatsoever inside this aluminum unit. It is clearly different and a bit more detailed than the Cambron. As my Lenihan's guide is packed away and also not the latest, most complete edition, anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer of this cast aluminum PA? Thanks, Jay W.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22906	From: jbark76	Date: 6/10/2014
Subject: Re: Aluminum Cast Alco PA

Hobbies Inc.  They made an A and a B unit.  -Jeff-

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22907	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/10/2014
Subject: Re: Aluminum Cast Alco PA

Jeff B., Thanks for the ID, I had completely forgotten about Hobbies Inc. and will try searching for some of the older ads in the back issues of MR from the 40s. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22908	From: Dr. Robert Driggers	Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: steam engine

Can anyone help me identify a brass steam engine that I believe is an 0-8-0 with Japan on bottom and a brass tender with a number 9 on the side. thanks Robert

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22909	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/11/2014
Subject: Re: Aluminum Cast Alco PA [1 Attachment]

Strangely enough, I have it's identical twin. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Jun 9, 2014, at 2:54 PM, "Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Hi All, Here is my newest acquisition, a cast aluminum ALCO PA unit. For comparison, picture behind it is a cast bronze Cambron Alco PA. Unlike the other Cambron Alco and EMD castings I have, there is no marking whatsoever inside this aluminum unit. It is clearly different and a bit more detailed than the Cambron. As my Lenihan's guide is packed away and also not the latest, most complete edition, anyone have an idea as to the manufacturer of this cast aluminum PA? Thanks, Jay W. __._,_.__

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22910	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 6/12/2014
Subject: Re: steam engine

Hello Robert D., If you attached a photo to your message, I have not been able to view it on our group website or in my yahoo mailbox. Could you attach a photo or resend one that you attached? Thanks, as I know there are number here who would be willing to give identification a try. Jay W. From: 'Dr. Robert Driggers' robertanned@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; To: <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: [vintageHO] steam engine Sent: Wed, Jun 11, 2014 9:20:40 PM   Can anyone help me identify a brass steam engine that I believe is an 0-8-0 with Japan on bottom and a brass tender with a number 9 on the side. thanks Robert

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22911	From: sprinthag	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Varney Dockside on eBay

I don't think I'll create any mad bidding rush on this one. Item #271520888878 Take a look ay an unassembled diecast dockside that has a serious case of diecast rot! The whole roof is about to disintegrate! Plus there are parts missing and the seller has the guts to mention the words "Valve Gear" in the auction title and there is no evidence that one in included with this particular kit. He has a starting bid of $145.00 and has an cartoon informercial advising buyers how to leave so-so feedback without damaging the seller. This guys has a set of balls bigger than my stomach! Buyer beware is way to little for this one. John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22912	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Varney Dockside on eBay

On 6/13/2014 11:19 AM, sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I don't think I'll create any mad bidding rush on this one. Item #271520888878 Take a look ay an unassembled diecast dockside that has a serious case of diecast rot! The whole roof is about to disintegrate! Plus there are parts missing and the seller has the guts to mention the words "Valve Gear" in the auction title and there is no evidence that one in included with this particular kit. He has a starting bid of $145.00 and has an cartoon informercial advising buyers how to leave so-so feedback without damaging the seller. This guys has a set of balls bigger than my stomach! Buyer beware is way to little for this one. John Hagen Mine is a 1948 version with central valley valve gear. It needs some tweaking to get the motor remounted properly with a good gear alignment.   It was in a box with an early 50's Mantua Booster that runs right out of the box, and about a dozen re-build-able freight cars (which have been rebuilt). The whole box was 30 bucks.  (on eBay no less) Don -- Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22913	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay

First, I hope I'm not tromping on anyone here that is following the auction I'm about to mention. There is a great Cab-Forward Dockside on eBay of the same era of Varney and with the same disintegrating body. ebay # 121350436270 This absolutely will need a rebuild with a new body, but if you can repair it, it will be a great model. I really hope I'm not dashing the hopes of someone in this list that is trying for the model. I post this in the strong hope that someone here will be able to salvage the model and bring it back to life. Sadly, there is no valve gear on this model. The price is still quite reasonable with a little over a day to go. As an aside, I've been hoping to get one of the conversion cab-forward front ends for the Dockside for ages. I'm to the point of having to make my own due to the dang things being so very hard to get. Lord knows I've tried. I'm thinking of building one as a copy from styrene and finishing it up with the weld-seam decals and a later re-build by the company shops. Looks like it will be quicker than continuing to try to get one. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 13, 2014, at 11:19 AM, sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > I don't think I'll create any mad bidding rush on this one. > > Item #271520888878 > > Take a look ay an unassembled diecast dockside that has a serious > case of diecast rot! The whole roof is about to disintegrate! Plus > there are parts missing and the seller has the guts to mention the > words "Valve Gear" in the auction title and there is no evidence > that one in included with this particular kit. > > He has a starting bid of $145.00 and has an cartoon informercial > advising buyers how to leave so-so feedback without damaging the > seller. > > This guys has a set of balls bigger than my stomach! > > Buyer beware is way to little for this one. > > John Hagen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22914	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay

Attachments : $_57-8.JPG I'm going to attach an image from this auction. I went after a good front view so as to someday [hopefully soon] make my own cab-forward end. And what do I get to see ???? The dang fool attached the brass Kemtron cab-forward end with a ............... Well, look at the photo and see what's right in the middle of the picture....... Its one of those things you hear about and never really expect to see done........ Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 13, 2014, at 12:51 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > First, I hope I'm not tromping on anyone here that is following the > auction I'm about to mention. > > There is a great Cab-Forward Dockside on eBay of the same era of > Varney and with the same disintegrating body. > > ebay # 121350436270 > > This absolutely will need a rebuild with a new body, but if you can > repair it, it will be a great model.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22915	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay

Mike B., You're right, often rumored but rarely seen. Good thing I swallowed the last of my caffeine before I clicked on the image! At a local show last month, I dug out a solid Little Joe Zamac casting with all of the back end detailed neatly filed off where the modeler planned to attach the Kemtron, later Precision Cab-Forward casting. We dug through the rest of that large old cardboard carton but could not find the separate casting. Oh well at least when I do find one, I have a nice clean solid body casting to attach it to. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22916	From: oljoeoh	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay

An interesting for what it's worth: I had a Rivarossi Little Joe 0-4-0, a dead ringer for the Varney item.  Bought one of the cab forward castings and put it on the Rivarossi - no filing needed.  I glued the casting to the Rivarossi plastic body with Walthers goo.  And no, I no longer have either the casting or the Rivarossi.  For those who may be interested the Rivarossi appears regularly on ebay for really small amounts and it comes complete with valve gear.  Runs like a clock and looks great with those larger drivers. J. O'Loughlin

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22917	From: the_plainsman	Date: 6/13/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay

Hi J. O'Loughlin, and All, It is interesting to hear that the cab – forward casting mounts easily on the Rivarossi "Little Joe" as well - that speaks well of both Varney in the late 1940's and Rivarossi a little over a decade later as both their models seem to have followed the prototype dimensions closely. I always liked how Rivarossi paid a sort of homage to pioneer Varney by following Varney's lead in placing their external identification on the locomotive casting's exterior. Varney placed a "V" on the builders plate on Docksider's Smokebox, while Rivarossi used "RR" for the initials of that firm's two founders! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22918	From: Denis Long	Date: 6/14/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay

Why, I think it fits in the very nicely.  You could putty the slot.   Another subject:  Do you have any interest in my brass Valiant F-9, lettered for the Milwaukee Road? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22919	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/14/2014
Subject: Re: Another on eBay..... Re: [vintageHO] Varney Dockside on eBay

Attachments : $_57-22919.JPG I agree. It looked like a natural spot for a builders plate. Otherwise, the model needs to have all of the rear of the original cab that can be seen through the Cab-Forward windows, removed. I think it's priced too high for a model that needs the body tossed and may have serious metal problems with the chassis as well. I can't take on your Valiant F9. I'm loaded down with unfinished vintage models to finish and I must work on them. I just paid for another Paul Moore trolley. This one is a completely card walled body. You might find it to be interesting, I'll attach an image. The windows are very nice and the flat angled ends are very much like the TMER&L's I should be building. I'm looking forward to measuring the small sections of the model, comparing them to the existing TMER&L car measurements, and getting some working modeling specs from the result. It's very nice for a vintage model. All it would need today are our available raised rivet decals, [ and a few of todays available detail fittings ] I consider the boiled result to be working laser cut standards for similar models including passenger cars of the era. I see the windows do need window frames. That's easy to add on follow- up models. I'm still impressed by the look of these vintage model window sills. They are so unexpectedly delicate for hand-cut models. Paul was quite the master of his art! Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 14, 2014, at 3:36 PM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > Why, I think it fits in the very nicely. You could putty the slot. > > Another subject: Do you have any interest in my brass Valiant F-9, > lettered for the Milwaukee Road? > Denis

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 22920	From: saddlewood1	Date: 6/16/2014
Subject: Old Model Data

Hello All, Is anyone interested in any of this? Cary detail parts, shells, discontinued models, hints for working with Cary bodies. Twelve pages. 2003 Bowser parts list. Ten pages. 2001 Hobbytown of Boston parts list. Five pages. 2001 Stewart Hobbies locos & cars. Eight pages. 1983 “Classified Product Review Index”. These lists made from Model Railroader from 1946 to 1982; and Railroad Model Craftsman from 1952 to 1982. These were models available during those years. Items organized by page color, starting with steam locos and running through cars, scenery, etc. One hundred eighteen pages. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22921	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 6/17/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data

Dennis, Yes, but I don't understand what you are asking. Do you have paperwork (brochures, catalogs, etc) you want to:          1) give away          2) sell          3) scan and post if there is interest Or something else entirely? Willard At 08:46 PM 6/16/2014, you wrote: Hello All, Is anyone interested in any of this? Cary detail parts, shells, discontinued models, hints for working with Cary bodies. Twelve pages. 2003 Bowser parts list. Ten pages. 2001 Hobbytown of Boston parts list. Five pages. 2001 Stewart Hobbies locos & cars. Eight pages. 1983 “Classified Product Review Index”. These lists made from Model Railroader from 1946 to 1982; and Railroad Model Craftsman from 1952 to 1982. These were models available during those years. Items organized by page color, starting with steam locos and running through cars, scenery, etc. One hundred eighteen pages. Denis This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22922	From: Denis Long	Date: 6/18/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data

Willard, I would be interested in getting $9 (Includes postage). Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22923	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 6/18/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data

OK, I wasn't clear on what you wanted to do. While I'd be mildly interested in the information on the Cary bodies I'm not interested in the total package. Thanks. Willard. At 11:04 AM 6/18/2014, you wrote: Willard, I would be interested in getting $9 (Includes postage). Denis This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22924	From: Denis Long	Date: 6/19/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data

Hello Willard, $2.50 would  be needed to satisfy your mild interest. Thanks, Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22925	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/19/2014
Subject: Re: Old Model Data

Hello Denis,   Aren't you getting any of the messages I'm sending you off-line about your Model literature?  I first emailed you on Monday evening about 10:30, and again yesterday, indicating I would take everything at your $9 price.  I'm guess I'm the first one to respond, as I haven't seen anyone else asking you about this material until Tuesday morning -- and I believe that was Willard.  If you're receiving this, I'll still take the material which I asked about on Monday.  I don't like sending Off-Topic message on the Group but I don't see you paying attention to my emails otherwise.  Send me you address and I'll send you my payment ASAP.  Many thanks,   Ray Wetzel    In a message dated 6/19/2014 1:11:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello Willard, $2.50 would  be needed to satisfy your mild interest. Thanks, Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22926	From: Rick Jones	Date: 6/22/2014
Subject: Sorting Stripwood

Here's question for any scratchbuilders that have ever made a rack to hold their various sizes of wood. Do you mark the trays or tubes by the actual dimensions of the part, or by the scale dimensions? I've noticed that some vendors sell their offerings one way and some sell them the other way. -- Rick Jones Some people drink from the Fountain of Knowledge, others just gargle, and some just walk up and piss in it.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22927	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 6/22/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting Stripwood

Hi Rick, I have so many different sizes of stripwood that it would take a very large rack to keep the all segregated. One day I am hoping to have enough tubes to keep them in. I now keep them in the original package that they came in. I use actual dimensional wood as there is not that much scale dimensional wood available plus I have also been scratch building longer than scale dimensional wood has been available. I have scratch build over 200 cars and over 50 buildings and bridges. There are very few building and not many cars on the market that fit my chosen time, RR and area. Joel Holmes > Here's question for any scratchbuilders that have ever made a rack to > hold their various sizes of wood. Do you mark the trays or tubes by the > actual dimensions of the part, or by the scale dimensions? I've noticed > that some vendors sell their offerings one way and some sell them the > other way. > > -- > > Rick Jones > > Some people drink from the Fountain of Knowledge, others just > gargle, and some just walk up and piss in it. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22928	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting Stripwood

Joel   Time to post photos of all those wonderful hand built structures annd cars if you haven’t already!   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22929	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Sorting Stripwood

Hi Jim, I have a picture of my LV Pittston Junction Tower on the Anthracite group site and possibly on the LV group site. Unfortunately, I am in the process of moving and probably will not have time to take and post other pictures in the near future. Joel Joel. > Joel > > Time to post photos of all those wonderful hand built structures annd cars > if you haven’t already! > > Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22930	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Don't ask me how I did it but I managed to misplace the bottom cover for the drive wheels on my John English Mike. I have practically turned my hobby room upside down looking for it. So, does anyone have a spare cover place they are willing to part with? Please let me know. Just to clarify, this is the plate with two screws that holds the drive wheels in place.  This is going to be a real beauty on the tracks when it is finished, if I can only find a cover plate for it. I have gone all out to make this into a conversation piece. To date it has a NWSL gear box and can motor, Middle two drivers have been machined down to remove flanges, many brass details have been installed including an Elesco feed water heater and headlight. If anyone is interested I will post a photo of it.  Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22931	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Don't ask me how I did it but I managed to misplace the bottom cover for the drive wheels on my John English Mike. I have practically turned my hobby room upside down looking for it. So, does anyone have a spare cover place they are willing to part with? Please let me know. Just to clarify, this is the plate with two screws that holds the drive wheels in place.  This is going to be a real beauty on the tracks when it is finished, if I can only find a cover plate for it. I have gone all out to make this into a conversation piece. To date it has a NWSL gear box and can motor, Middle two drivers have been machined down to remove flanges, many brass details have been installed including an Elesco feed water heater and headlight. If anyone is interested I will post a photo of it.  Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22932	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Richard,   You have GOT to post pics of this engine when your ready.  Did you perhaps letter it for the Rutland RR?  If you can't find the cast cover plate, they're easy enough to make out of heavy brass sheet -- until the original turns up next year < g >.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 6/23/2014 8:29:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Don't ask me how I did it but I managed to misplace the bottom cover for the drive wheels on my John English Mike. I have practically turned my hobby room upside down looking for it. So, does anyone have a spare cover place they are willing to part with? Please let me know. Just to clarify, this is the plate with two screws that holds the drive wheels in place.  This is going to be a real beauty on the tracks when it is finished, if I can only find a cover plate for it. I have gone all out to make this into a conversation piece. To date it has a NWSL gear box and can motor, Middle two drivers have been machined down to remove flanges, many brass details have been installed including an Elesco feed water heater and headlight. If anyone is interested I will post a photo of it.  Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22933	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Photos, YES!   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2014 7:32 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing     Don't ask me how I did it but I managed to misplace the bottom cover for the drive wheels on my John English Mike. I have practically turned my hobby room upside down looking for it. So, does anyone have a spare cover place they are willing to part with? Please let me know. Just to clarify, this is the plate with two screws that holds the drive wheels in place.    This is going to be a real beauty on the tracks when it is finished, if I can only find a cover plate for it. I have gone all out to make this into a conversation piece. To date it has a NWSL gear box and can motor, Middle two drivers have been machined down to remove flanges, many brass details have been installed including an Elesco feed water heater and headlight. If anyone is interested I will post a photo of it.  Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22934	From: Doug Harris	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

On 24/06/14 0:37, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Richard, > > You have GOT to post pics of this engine when your ready. Did you perhaps > letter it for the Rutland RR? If you can't find the cast cover plate, > they're easy enough to make out of heavy brass sheet -- until the original > turns up next year< g>. > > Ray Wetzel Any parts which I have go missing inevitably turn up just as I finish making a replacement.. :-))> ½ ø °■ ≈ (Grinning bearded man with half a bowel, no prostate, a titanium hip joint and Fat Finger Disease) Otherwise, I'm in pretty good shape, thanks! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22935	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Ray, John, Doug and All, Thanks for your replies. Today, I took Ray's advice and made my own bearing plate. Hurray, it turned out great (pat, pat). And yes it even runs nicely. I did have to re-quarter the two blind drivers after a friend graciously turned them for me. Tomorrow I will do my best to up load some pictures into a group file that will be called "Richard's John English Mike". Now that I made a bearing plate for it, I am fully expecting the missing plate to turn up any time, right Doug? I haven't painted or lettered it yet and when I started this project I didn't have any particular prototype in mind. Ray you asked if it was going to be a Rutland loco, so I'm wondering if it resembles a steamer they had. If anyone is wondering why I did this, it is because I get a kick out of bringing an old timer like this one up to date and have it run just as nice as any BLI or MTH, etc. minus the sound and smoke, of course. There is also another reason and that is that being a retired old timer myself, I can no longer afford the astronomical price tags on the new stuff but I am perfectly content to work on a vintage steamer like this one. Another one that I just finished is kit bashing an IHC into a PRR 4-4-0 #1223 with a Belpaire fire box. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22936	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Hi Doug, You sound like me except I have too much bowel :) Robert Armstrong New Castle, Delaware. USA Sent from my NOOK "Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 24/06/14 0:37, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Richard, > > You have GOT to post pics of this engine when your ready. Did you perhaps > letter it for the Rutland RR? If you can't find the cast cover plate, > they're easy enough to make out of heavy brass sheet -- until the original > turns up next year< g>. > > Ray Wetzel Any parts which I have go missing inevitably turn up just as I finish making a replacement.. :-))> ½ ø °■ ≈ (Grinning bearded man with half a bowel, no prostate, a titanium hip joint and Fat Finger Disease) Otherwise, I'm in pretty good shape, thanks! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22937	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 6/23/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Hi Richard,   I knew you could fabricate a new brass bearing plate as it's an easy project.  In retrospect, and after checking further into the Rutland Mikado's, it appears that they had six of them but none with a feedwater heater.  Perhaps you could letter it for Grand Trunk (which had feedwater-equipped Mikes), as they were a subsidiary of CN, which also owned CV.  Using modeler's license, we could presume that CN occasionally used a few GT engines on the CV at times -- even though CV actually operated fairly free of interference from its parent CN.  While the Boston & Maine RR operated into Vermont, I don't believe any of their Mikado's had feedwater heaters either.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 6/23/2014 10:07:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray, John, Doug and All, Thanks for your replies. Today, I took Ray's advice and made my own bearing plate. Hurray, it turned out great (pat, pat). And yes it even runs nicely. I did have to re-quarter the two blind drivers after a friend graciously turned them for me. Tomorrow I will do my best to up load some pictures into a group file that will be called "Richard's John English Mike". Now that I made a bearing plate for it, I am fully expecting the missing plate to turn up any time, right Doug? I haven't painted or lettered it yet and when I started this project I didn't have any particular prototype in mind. Ray you asked if it was going to be a Rutland loco, so I'm wondering if it resembles a steamer they had. If anyone is wondering why I did this, it is because I get a kick out of bringing an old timer like this one up to date and have it run just as nice as any BLI or MTH, etc. minus the sound and smoke, of course. There is al so another reason and that is that being a retired old timer myself, I can no longer afford the astronomical price tags on the new stuff but I am perfectly content to work on a vintage steamer like this one. Another one that I just finished is kit bashing an IHC into a PRR 4-4-0 #1223 with a Belpaire fire box. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22938	From: rcjge	Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Instructions for

Hey Guys: Does anyone have a set of directions they can scan and send me for the Model Power Blue Coal Depot? I have a partially built one with some pieces missing perhaps... Very likely that someone else made the same structure under another title as is so common, so if thats the case please let me know. Thanks, Jeff MODEL POWER HO SCALE BLUE COAL DEPOT LIGHTED BUILDING MODEL POWER HO SCALE BLUE COAL DEPOT LIG... MODEL POWER HO SCALE BLUE COAL DEPOT LIGHTED BUILDING in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale | eBay View on www.ebay.ca Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22939	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/24/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

If I can figure out Yahoo's wonderful system I will put some photos in my folder but so far when I click on "add photos" nothing happens.  Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22940	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Managed to get my photos of the John English 2-8-2 in the album titled "Richard's John English Mike". Had to use a different computer to do it, not sure why. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22941	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3233

Question about Life-Like 2-8-2(may be off topic but I need to know) - any good? I am used to Bowser, MDC and the like - call me "spoiled." On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 3:54 AM, "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: There are 2 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. Instructions for        From:  rcjge 2a. Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing        From:  maryinvt2 Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1. Instructions for     Posted by:  jgpedwards@... rcjge     Date: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:25 am ((PDT)) Hey Guys: Does anyone have a set of directions they can scan and send me for the Model Power Blue Coal Depot? I have a partially built one with some pieces missing perhaps... Very likely that someone else made the same structure under another title as is so common, so if thats the case please let me know. Thanks, Jeff MODEL POWER HO SCALE BLUE COAL DEPOT LIGHTED BUILDING http://www.ebay.ca/itm/320304882612?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 http://www.ebay.ca/itm/320304882612?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 MODEL POWER HO SCALE BLUE COAL DEPOT LIG... http://www.ebay.ca/itm/320304882612?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 MODEL POWER HO SCALE BLUE COAL DEPOT LIGHTED BUILDING in Toys & Hobbies, Model Railroads & Trains, HO Scale | eBay View on www.ebay.ca http://www.ebay.ca/itm/320304882612?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649 Preview by Yahoo Messages in this topic (1) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2a. Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing     Posted by:  rh@... maryinvt2     Date: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:54 pm ((PDT)) If I can figure out Yahoo's wonderful system I will put some photos in my folder but so far when I click on "add photos" nothing happens.  Richard in Vermont Messages in this topic (9) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Digest Email  | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     vintageHO-normal@yahoogroups.com     vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22942	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/25/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Nice work Richard.   By far the best looking English Mike I’ve ever seen.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2014 7:30 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing     Managed to get my photos of the John English 2-8-2 in the album titled "Richard's John English Mike". Had to use a different computer to do it, not sure why. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22943	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Very nice work Richard.  Can you tell us about the pipe that comes down from the feedwater heater that is supposed to represent lagged piping?  I like what you did. Regards,  Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 05:29:44 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing   Managed to get my photos of the John English 2-8-2 in the album titled "Richard's John English Mike". Had to use a different computer to do it, not sure why. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22944	From: Robert Armstrong	Date: 6/26/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Hi Richard, What NWSL gearbox did you use? Robert Armstrong Sent from my NOOK "rh@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Managed to get my photos of the John English 2-8-2 in the album titled "Richard's John English Mike". Had to use a different computer to do it, not sure why. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22945	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/28/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Thanks Victor. I went to our local music store and asked them for a piece of broken guitar string because I thought it would resemble lagged piping. It seemed to work well and because it was steel, it soldered in place very well. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22946	From: Gary Mittner	Date: 6/28/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Started work on a second Varney Streamline steam loco. This time I will do a 4-6-2. Although the two will not be identical twin sisters, they will have the family look. I think this new project uses an older casting? This one has no pilot steps in the casting and the stack is a wee bit different. The original owner hand rails are bent into a different shape but will keep them that way. It came with a tender, a shorter tender than the one I scratch built for the Hudson version. Not sure if I will use it or scratch build another identical to the one built for the 4-6-4. I do have an original Barney stream line tender in kit form but plan on keeping it as a kit. Color combination and striping for the 4-6-2 plan on being the same as that of the 4-6-4. They are sisters after all.  New pics were added.  Gary --- Original Message --- From: danspachmd@... Sent: April 22, 2014 11:03 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Streamlined Varney I have been following this thread and the photos with much interest and admiration. Gary has bestowed an extraordinary sense of good design, good taste, fine proportionality and artistry on this model; and to boot, exercised fine modeling skills in doing so.  I love the paint scheme, and appreciate very much the sentiment of simply numbering the locomotive sans any lettering. Congratulations! This moved me to go digging into my way-back collection and bring into the light my own quite fanciful modeling version of the very same Varney streamlined locomotive that I did in 1959 while I was still in medical school.  I am now 80 and retired!   As soon as I can figure out how to do it, I will upload photos. I did make my locomotive into a 4-6-4.  The main chassis parts were from a Penn Line K4 4-6-2, and the drivers (80") were from a Penn Line T-1 4-4-4-4. The lead truck was also from a Penn Line T-1.  All of these parts were purchased directly from Penn Line. The sprung investment cast brass trailing truck is Budd  (from Kemtron, as are most of the other applied details).  The skirts are fabricated from Strathmore laminated paper, backed with wood strips. A hidden wood  piece extends the pilot down to within an appropriate distance from the rail heads. The decals are Walthers, when Walthers was THE major decal supplier.  The tender is from a Penn Line T-1.  Because the tender body was too narrow, it had to be significantly widened to match the Varney (which, at 10'6" is overside). This locomotive spent 5 years span of successfully, smoothly, and effortlessly as a popular regular pulling a 14 car train of fancifully-painted Sampson, Herkimer, and American Beauty cars at high speed around the 70" radius curves of the West Bay Club layout in Menlo Park, CA.  That the locomotive alone weighed (weighs) 2.150 lb. ensured that no train gave it any trouble.  I was surely naive in my then modeling choices, but in the Milwaukee steam passenger realm at the time, the only models that one could lay their hands on were the Walthers Taylor F-6 4-6-4 of 1936-c. 39, or the Rivarossi 4-4-2. (the former was worthy, the latter not so much). This locomotive has not been on the track, much less run since 1964, but....h-mmm.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22947	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/28/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Robert, Unfortunately, I didn't keep track of which NWSL gear box I used. I should be able to figure it out, given some time to research it. Too bad NWSL doesn't put there part numbers on the gear case. I will try to figure this out and get back to you. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22948	From: maryinvt2	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Part for John English 2-8-2 Missing

Robert, Here's the info on the NWSL gear box that I used as well as the can motor. I removed the boiler casting to take some measurements and left it off in case anyone would like some close-ups, so let me know. By the way, in my photo album (Richard's John English Mike) there is one photo of the chassis with the boiler out of the way. The NWSL gear box is #143-6 which has a 28:1 gear ratio and is made for 1/8th inch axles. The input shaft measures 2.4mm. The can motor that I used is not an expensive motor. I think I paid less than $5.00 and bought several to keep on hand. It has proven to be an excellent motor, very smooth and quiet, yet plenty of power. There are no markings on it so I can't pass along the name of the manufacturer. These motors seem to be on the internet all the time. It measures 15.3mm X 32mm and I glued it in place using GE Silicone II. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22949	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

Something to talk about ... maybe... I don't consider myself a, "vintage HO collector," by any means. But at 71 now, I've enjoyed picking up a few things I couldn't afford in the late 1950's, a statement I've made here before. Now I'm thinking about those Gilbert/American Flyer 0-6-0's. Their proportions don't look all that exact to me, of course, but they've intrigued me for some time now. I've never seen one in the flesh. That said, are they roughly scale or oversized? Didn't Gilbert make the same thing in S Gauge? If so, and buying unseen, I wonder if there is much of a chance of ending up with an S Gauge version by accident and/or mis-listed sales postings....... I've searched here and HOSeeker, and the photos I've looked over seem to show a husky built locomotive. Any comments on their worth as a vintage piece? To the others here on this Group that enjoy, "the old stuff," have most of you picked up one of these? Like them? Just thinking and hoping my posting this doesn't kick up the auction bidding too much. Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22950	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

If the motor is good they can be made to run well.  One may take a bit of tinkering because a fully equipped one will have a choo/choo, smoke unit and gear and lever to run that.  I sold two several years ago and they both ran well when I sold them but did not run at all when first received.  The driver tires are a bit thick and the valve gear is a bit oversized...  Otherwise they can be good engines when cleaned and lubed properly. Happy railroading... Don Staton in VA ================================================================================== On 6/29/2014 3:34 PM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Something to talk about ... maybe... I don't consider myself a, "vintage HO collector," by any means. But at 71 now, I've enjoyed picking up a few things I couldn't afford in the late 1950's, a statement I've made here before. Now I'm thinking about those Gilbert/American Flyer 0-6-0's. Their proportions don't look all that exact to me, of course, but they've intrigued me for some time now. I've never seen one in the flesh. That said, are they roughly scale or oversized? Didn't Gilbert make the same thing in S Gauge? If so, and buying unseen, I wonder if there is much of a chance of ending up with an S Gauge version by accident and/or mis-listed sales postings....... I've searched here and HOSeeker, and the photos I've looked over seem to show a husky built locomotive. Any comments on their worth as a vintage piece? To the others here on this Group that enjoy, "the old stuff," have most of you picked up one of these? Like them? Just thinking and hoping my posting this doesn't kick up the auction bidding too much. Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22951	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: VINTAGE SCHRADER - ANDECO HO SCALE BRASS EP-4 ELECTRIC NEW HAVEN LOC

I just stumbled across this 1940 or so model in flickr and thought you might like to see a ready to paint cast streamlined electric in bronze/ brass with an Andeco belt drive. Scroll down the page to see all of the shots. http://flickeflu.com/set/72157624712447072 I see a trace of paint on the nose herald. It might have been a painted model at one time. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22952	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

The biggest visual problem with the Gilbert HO 0-6-0 is the few scale feet of cab-filling motor jutting out of the rear of the cab. I don't think one will be a true collectable that will climb in value over the years to a suitable amount. I think of it as more of a purchase of pleasure that you should enjoy, even enjoy using, once you finally get one. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 29, 2014, at 2:34 PM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Something to talk about ... maybe... > > I don't consider myself a, "vintage HO collector," by any means. But > at 71 now, I've enjoyed picking up a few things I couldn't afford in > the late 1950's, a statement I've made here before. > > Now I'm thinking about those Gilbert/American Flyer 0-6-0's. Their > proportions don't look all that exact to me, of course, but they've > intrigued me for some time now. I've never seen one in the > flesh. That said, are they roughly scale or oversized? Didn't > Gilbert make the same thing in S Gauge? If so, and buying unseen, I > wonder if there is much of a chance of ending up with an S Gauge > version by accident and/or mis-listed sales postings....... I've > searched here and HOSeeker, and the photos I've looked over seem to > show a husky built locomotive. > > Any comments on their worth as a vintage piece? To the others here > on this Group that enjoy, "the old stuff," have most of you picked up > one of these? Like them? > > Just thinking and hoping my posting this doesn't kick up the auction > bidding too much. > > Dennis in E WA state

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22953	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

You know? I feel the same way about the old Aristo-Craft/Rivarossi Hiawatha Streamliner of that era. Once in a while I see parts of one turn up for an insanely high price. Strangely enough, there's one going through ebay now, from Peru of all places. At least the price isn't too crazy yet. I can console myself with the fact that its broken, somehow missing its main rods and one set of drivers are now idlers, making it a one- axle drive. If it runs at all. [ Getting the several pictures from the auction is darned nice by itself ] Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 29, 2014, at 2:34 PM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Something to talk about ... maybe... > > I don't consider myself a, "vintage HO collector," by any means. But > at 71 now, I've enjoyed picking up a few things I couldn't afford in > the late 1950's, a statement I've made here before. > > Now I'm thinking about those Gilbert/American Flyer 0-6-0's. Their > proportions don't look all that exact to me, of course, but they've > intrigued me for some time now. I've never seen one in the > flesh. That said, are they roughly scale or oversized? Didn't > Gilbert make the same thing in S Gauge? If so, and buying unseen, I > wonder if there is much of a chance of ending up with an S Gauge > version by accident and/or mis-listed sales postings....... I've > searched here and HOSeeker, and the photos I've looked over seem to > show a husky built locomotive. > > Any comments on their worth as a vintage piece? To the others here > on this Group that enjoy, "the old stuff," have most of you picked up > one of these? Like them? > > Just thinking and hoping my posting this doesn't kick up the auction > bidding too much. > > Dennis in E WA state > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > Posted by: Dennis Thompson <dbtrail@...> > ------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22954	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: VINTAGE SCHRADER - ANDECO HO SCALE BRASS EP-4 ELECTRIC NEW HAVEN

One of Sean Naylor’s collection. And very interesting.   Although a tad crude by today’s casting abilities, picture this running somewhere around three or more feet away from you, painted and decaled, pulling a matching set of streamlined passenger cars and tell me it would just impress the crap outa you?   I remember very well watching an O scale, streamlined CNW 400 running on the Paper Valley Model RR Club layout in Appleton back in the late 1940’s. It was nothing short of beautiful. Of course those diecast E units were pretty decent castings in O scale even back then but still compared to modern stuff…… IIRC the lead unit was an E6. Impressive as hell.   Dang thing kept derailing because the cast E was so heavy it were spreading the rails! That’s right now I recall that I saw the train during the first time on the layout and every time it derailed someone would go over there with a track gauge and spikes. After a couple of hours the mainline was sufficiently re-spiked to avoid further problems.   But I digress. Getting back to the model in question I really like the train heat boiler detail. I suppose it really did look like that from above on those particular locos. No guessing here as to what that was for.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 3:19 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] VINTAGE SCHRADER - ANDECO HO SCALE BRASS EP-4 ELECTRIC NEW HAVEN LOCOMOTIVE     I just stumbled across this 1940 or so model in flickr and thought you might like to see a ready to paint cast streamlined electric in bronze/ brass with an Andeco belt drive. Scroll down the page to see all of the shots. http://flickeflu.com/set/72157624712447072 I see a trace of paint on the nose herald. It might have been a painted model at one time. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22955	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

Hi Dennis, be sure that they are a great little loco to have. You won't be disappointed if you want a made to play type toy train engine. They are still a good looking piece with good dimensions. For a little engine the can pull enough to make them fun. To be sure your getting the HO engine and not the S gauge piece, just look for either a 155 on the cab side, or a 433 or a 31004. Any of those would have a smoke unit in the boiler. The 155 is the post war engine with Gilberts' own HO coupler and not the X2F coupler. The others will have the X2F. Dom On Sunday, June 29, 2014 4:32 PM, "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   You know? I feel the same way about the old Aristo-Craft/Rivarossi Hiawatha Streamliner of that era. Once in a while I see parts of one turn up for an insanely high price. Strangely enough, there's one going through ebay now, from Peru of all places. At least the price isn't too crazy yet. I can console myself with the fact that its broken, somehow missing its main rods and one set of drivers are now idlers, making it a one- axle drive. If it runs at all. [ Getting the several pictures from the auction is darned nice by itself ] Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 29, 2014, at 2:34 PM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Something to talk about ... maybe... > > I don't consider myself a, "vintage HO collector," by any means. But > at 71 now, I've enjoyed picking up a few things I couldn't afford in > the late 1950's, a statement I've made here before. > > Now I'm thinking about those Gilbert/American Flyer 0-6-0's. Their > proportions don't look all that exact to me, of course, but they've > intrigued me for some time now. I've never seen one in the > flesh. That said, are they roughly scale or oversized? Didn't > Gilbert make the same thing in S Gauge? If so, and buying unseen, I > wonder if there is much of a chance of ending up with an S Gauge > version by accident and/or mis-listed sales postings....... I've > searched here and HOSeeker, and the photos I've looked over seem to > show a husky built locomotive. > > Any comments on their worth as a vintage piece? To the others here > on this Group that enjoy, "the old stuff," have most of you picked up > one of these? Like them? > > Just thinking and hoping my posting this doesn't kick up the auction > bidding too much. > > Dennis in E WA state > > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > > > > ------------------------------------ > Posted by: Dennis Thompson <dbtrail@...> > ------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22956	From: Dale Smith	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

I don't think you will have much problem getting this confused with an S gauge version, which are labeled 21004 or 21005 or possibly 263.  Also the S gauge bodies are plastic rather than metal as are the HO bodies.  Actually, the HO model predates the S gauge model by several years.  The 155 was introduced in 1949, but HO production then shut down between 1951 and 1955.   When it resumed in 1955, the 0-6-0 was numbered 433.  That lasted until 3 digit numbering came in in 1957 and the model was the 31004 which appeared minus the white sidewalls.  Various other models were introduced after that, but all of those lacked the smoke and choo-choo unit.   (31019, 31031, amd 31036)  Take a look at the Gilbert HO Index site for some very good photos of all the models.  http://www.gilbertho.org  Also, for a photo that shows an 0-6-0 next to Gilbert S gauge rolling stock see http://www.americanflyerdisplays.org/images/ghos_images/buckage/oilderrickarea.jpg  The locomotive at the upper right would be a 155 since the photo dates to 1950 or 1951. I also second Mike's comment about the motor that sticks out as the most serious problem appearance wise. Dale Smith On 6/29/2014 12:34 PM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Something to talk about ... maybe... I don't consider myself a, "vintage HO collector," by any means. But at 71 now, I've enjoyed picking up a few things I couldn't afford in the late 1950's, a statement I've made here before. Now I'm thinking about those Gilbert/American Flyer 0-6-0's. Their proportions don't look all that exact to me, of course, but they've intrigued me for some time now. I've never seen one in the flesh. That said, are they roughly scale or oversized? Didn't Gilbert make the same thing in S Gauge? If so, and buying unseen, I wonder if there is much of a chance of ending up with an S Gauge version by accident and/or mis-listed sales postings....... I've searched here and HOSeeker, and the photos I've looked over seem to show a husky built locomotive. Any comments on their worth as a vintage piece? To the others here on this Group that enjoy, "the old stuff," have most of you picked up one of these? Like them? Just thinking and hoping my posting this doesn't kick up the auction bidding too much. Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22957	From: John Hagen	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

I don’t know that they were over scale, at least not enough to approach S scale. Maybe OO but I believe they were relatively close to HO.   Of course I’m going from long ago memories here as I haven’t seen one on a HO layout in a very long time.   The valve gear was (is) chunky and abbreviated, the flanges big and the white walls approach “gangster whites” proportions but I have always liked them. I am a nut case for 0-6-0’s and often do an eBay search for them in HO and do look at the AF’s with at least a bit of yearning for one. Thnk goodness they are a Pennsy loco elsewise I’d have as many of them as I do Mantua and MDC 0-6-0’s, which is to say too damn many.   But still….. Of course getting one would open up another can of worms as once I had one AF switcher, then I’d have to get a NYC Hudson …… yada-dada-dada-da……..   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2014 3:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?     If the motor is good they can be made to run well.  One may take a bit of tinkering because a fully equipped one will have a choo/choo, smoke unit and gear and lever to run that.  I sold two several years ago and they both ran well when I sold them but did not run at all when first received.  The driver tires are a bit thick and the valve gear is a bit oversized...  Otherwise they can be good engines when cleaned and lubed properly. Happy railroading... Don Staton in VA ==================================================================================

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22958	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

I just remembered a couple of old solutions for a motor that pokes out of the rear of the cab. 1. Accordion fold your choice of material, even ordinary printer paper will do. And mount the folded thing as if it is installed cab-curtains as many steam locomotives had at the rear of their cabs. Model it as if the cab curtains have blown over the motor and it will be hidden. Trim to about the right length as you assemble it. 2. If you don't mind prototype kit-bashing the model. Get the Grandt Line Outfit Car Doors which are nicely detailed industrial-work type of paneled doors and build up the rear of the cab to be an enclosed all-weather cab. You don't have to make it a permanent install onto the model, you can make a unit that snaps or otherwise mounts onto the back wall of the Gilbert cab and extends to the rear of the roof overhang. I did this with the protruding motor of the Rivarossi 2-4-0 Bowker steamer. Although I did glue it to the original plastic cab. [That protruding motor just spoiled the looks of the model.] All weather cabs are rather common in the far northern cold winter parts of the country. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 29, 2014, at 4:22 PM, Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > I don't think you will have much problem getting this confused with > an S gauge version, which are labeled 21004 or 21005 or possibly > 263. Also the S gauge bodies are plastic rather than metal as are > the HO bodies. > > Actually, the HO model predates the S gauge model by several years. .................. > > I also second Mike's comment about the motor that sticks out as the > most serious problem appearance wise.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22959	From: corlissbs	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

I had a Gilbert 0-6-0 for years.  No, it is not oversized-at least not by much.  The Revell 0-4-0 is oversized!  I wore out the flanges on the drivers. That is how much I ran it.  It was a nice runner.  I still have the tender and it is free to anyone who wants it.   I am getting rid of all my layout HO-trains and trackwork and benchwork.  The layout has over 100 turnouts.  All vintage cars and locos.   Brad Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22960	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 6/29/2014
Subject: Re: Gilbert "HO" 0-6-0: oversize? worthwhile addition?

Thank you to all that commented on my query  for the Gilbert 0-6-0 information.  I've learned a lot.  I did, tonight, buy a non-running Gilbert loco.  I know now that it is a later version, (road number 31036), thanks to your input.  We'll see if I can get it going.  It has already sparked my interest in getting one of the older versions with smoke, etc., as I will not expect now that this one will have that.  My, my how interests keep expanding. I'm really curious about this one. Dennis At 02:22 PM 6/29/2014, you wrote: I don't think you will have much problem getting this confused with an S gauge version, which are labeled 21004 or 21005 or possibly 263.  Also the S gauge bodies are plastic rather than metal as are the HO bodies.  Actually, the HO model predates the S gauge model by several years.  The 155 was introduced in 1949, but HO production then shut down between 1951 and 1955.   When it resumed in 1955, the 0-6-0 was numbered 433.  That lasted until 3 digit numbering came in in 1957 and the model was the 31004 which appeared minus the white sidewalls.  Various other models were introduced after that, but all of those lacked the smoke and choo-choo unit.   (31019, 31031, amd 31036)  Take a look at the Gilbert HO Index site for some very good photos of all the models.  http://www.gilbertho.org  Also, for a photo that shows an 0-6-0 next to Gilbert S gauge rolling stock see http://www.americanflyerdisplays.org/images/ghos_images/buckage/oilderrickarea.jpg   The locomotive at the upper right would be a 155 since the photo dates to 1950 or 1951. I also second Mike's comment about the motor that sticks out as the most serious problem appearance wise. Dale Smith This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22961	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 6/30/2014
Subject: Re: BRASSTRAINS.COM - HO Red Ball LV Lehigh Valley 4-2-4T Inspection

Here's a nice vintage model that was built about 1965. Not a bad appreciation in price for a model that sold for about $35, it now sells for just under $500 But.......... How sad it is that it has never been painted to look like the real thing and shows no sign of being run since it came out of the factory. At it's present value, it likely will stay never decorated nor ever run. Still, thanks to the web posting for giving me a series of fine shots that I can think of one day to use to make a model for myself. Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jun 26, 2014, at 3:59 PM, Mike Bauers wrote: > > http://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/046703/HO-Red-Ball-LV-Lehigh-Valley-4-2-4T-Inspection-Loco > > > > Mike Bauers > Sent from my iPhone > Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22962	From: greenbrier614	Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: BRASSTRAINS.COM - HO Red Ball LV Lehigh Valley 4-2-4T Inspection

Interesting prototype, but $500 seem really steep for what resembles Ken Kidder / New One construction. The driver axle looks a little out of square with the frame. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22963	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/1/2014
Subject: Re: BRASSTRAINS.COM - HO Red Ball LV Lehigh Valley 4-2-4T Inspection

It's something that keeps me dreaming of some sort of laser cut hybrid model. I'd like to see it with a low level gearbox and a low profile can motor nesting low in the model. Ideally with a small diameter T boiler showing in the cabin and some Edwardian-like overstuffed chairs in the executive compartment that would be at home in Sherlock Holmes apartment. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Jul 2, 2014, at 12:10 AM, "greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Interesting prototype, but $500 seem really steep for what resembles Ken Kidder / New One construction. The driver axle looks a little out of square with the frame. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22964	From: b60bp	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: For Sale: several Vintage Kits

Greetings, I've been thinning the shelves in the basement for awhile and thought I might offer a few oldies on this list. If you have any interest, please contact me off-list. I'm asking $3.75 mailing on first freight car, $5.80 for two, $1 each additional cars. Passenger cars a bit more. Thanks for looking. Barry P  bpx29@... --Mainline Models Schlitz Beer reefer            $10.50 --Silver Streak Swift wood reefer                    $11.00 --Mainline Models Muncie Ball Line Box car   $11.00 --Silver Streak ATSF  reefer                              $10.50 --Ulrich  Great   Northern GS  gon                    $13.00 --Red Ball NYC Container car with load           $15.00 --Walthers ATSF bagg-lounge car craft kit        $15.00 --Walthers Soo bagg-rpo-coach combine kit    $ 23.00 --Walthers Pullman 6 bedroom-6 sec kit            $23.00 All are untouched kits in original boxes. Thanks again

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22965	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

This looks like good news! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jul 2, 2014, at 4:11 PM, doeringerf@... [Civil_War_RRs] <Civil_War_RRs@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Model Rectifier corps has just announced that it will take over the old Model Power Line of trains. To that end it has hired Adam Tager, formerly vice president of Model Power to help merge the two product lines. So there is at least a possibility that the Mantua Civil War era models will issued again. On the other hand, anyone wanting Mantua equipment should probably still buy up what they can now to be prudent, because there's no clear indication from MRC of what models will be continued. > > Frank

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22966	From: rshiel01	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Kar-Line boxes

A quick Q for the Kar-Line knowledgeable...a recent arrival of some Kar-Line cars in Athearn blue/yellow boxes, with printed labels showing Kar-Line production number, road and car number suggested to me that a previous owner had re-boxed them. I am not aware of Kar-Line cars coming from the original producer in other than the three types of boxes he used [beige window, glassine top, black glossy lid on white bottom], but then wondered if he used the original Athearn boxes later in production, when the volume of cars he could produce had ramped up. Any clues? Cheers, Russ in wintry Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22967	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: Kar-Line boxes

G'Day Russ,   Good to hear from you; hope you're staying warm.  As far as I'm aware, I've never heard of nor seen Kar Line cars coming in Athearn boxes.  I feel certain that these cars were reboxed somewhere along the line.  Possibly to sell Athearn or Bev Bel cars as Kar Line in original Kar Line boxes which used to contain your cars.  I remember buying what were advertised to be Kar Line cars on eBay several years ago, in original Kar Line boxes, but when I received them and was able to see them in person, I could tell they weren't Kar Line cars and sent them back.  BTW, I hope you finally got some Kar Line GN cars at decent prices.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 7/2/2014 8:41:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:    A quick Q for the Kar-Line knowledgeable...a recent arrival of some Kar-Line cars in Athearn blue/yellow boxes, with printed labels showing Kar-Line production number, road and car number suggested to me that a previous owner had re-boxed them. I am not aware of Kar-Line cars coming from the original producer in other than the three types of boxes he used [beige window, glassine top, black glossy lid on white bottom], but then wondered if he used the original Athearn boxes later in production, when the volume of cars he could produce had ramped up. Any clues? Cheers, Russ in wintry Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22968	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

Based on MR's past record, expect massive increases in price.  And if the Mantua tooling is still in the US, it won't be here for long.  Fred Holladay   To: EarlyRail@yahoogroups.com; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 19:07:08 -0500 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?   This looks like good news! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jul 2, 2014, at 4:11 PM, doeringerf@... [Civil_War_RRs] <Civil_War_RRs@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Model Rectifier corps has just announced that it will take over the old Model Power Line of trains. To that end it has hired Adam Tager, formerly vice president of Model Power to help merge the two product lines. So there is at least a possibility that the Mantua Civil War era models will issued again. On the other hand, anyone wanting Mantua equipment should probably still buy up what they can now to be prudent, because there's no clear indication from MRC of what models will be continued. > > Frank

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22969	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/2/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

China will cut new dies to suit their production center. The old dies will be scrapped since they won't work with their machinery. They will decide by committee if the General merits being produced. The best we can hope for is that the Model Power - Mantua items that were already in production, will go back into production. While the forwarded post mentions and hopes for the General, I think the better aspect of this is that what China was already making of the Mantua line, should be going back into production. What was The General can be produced in metal with current 3d printing processes and is very near being able to produce new dies domestically from similar processes. For now, pure 3d printing is slow and expensive. You can have complete Generals if you wish. Soon it will be much faster and less expensive. When? Who can say? But it is coming, perhaps just as soon as the present 3d patents soon expire and the newer generation of 3d printers that are already developed, go into commercial production. The newer Mike and Pacific are very nice and smooth performers with marked enhancements over the older tooling. As a beginning, it will be good to see those available again. If the General goes into production, it will be a like, improved model. Frankly, the General is a cliche of a model 4-4-0. We can do better today, just by using the tools and general supplies we already have available to us. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jul 2, 2014, at 9:15 PM, Fred Holladay fvh2@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Based on MR's past record, expect massive increases in price. And if the Mantua tooling is still in the US, it won't be here for long. > Fred Holladay > > To: EarlyRail@yahoogroups.com; vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2014 19:07:08 -0500 > Subject: [vintageHO] Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General? > > This looks like good news! > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Jul 2, 2014, at 4:11 PM, doeringerf@... [Civil_War_RRs] <Civil_War_RRs@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Model Rectifier corps has just announced that it will take over the old Model Power Line of trains. To that end it has hired Adam Tager, formerly vice president of Model Power to help merge the two product lines. So there is at least a possibility that the Mantua Civil War era models will issued again. On the other hand, anyone wanting Mantua equipment should probably still buy up what they can now to be prudent, because there's no clear indication from MRC of what models will be continued. > > > > Frank

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22970	From: cwrailman	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

For those of you new to this forum, in our 02/23/2013 Blog titled Remotoring a Mantua General or Making it RTR we demonstrated how to remotor one of the vintage General’s.  This blog was revised a few days later to show a second, more powerful motor being installed.  There is a video showing how the locomotive ran straight out of the box and again during the various stages of remotoring.   Since that time I have heard from other modelers who have performed the remotoring process and added some details to their models or completely reworked them.  With a little bit of effort these can be made to operate rather well.  Denny Janitor in Training CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops WEB site: http://www.cwrailman.com/ Facebook: CWRailman  CWRailman Check out CWRailman, Adventures in Model Railroading. The home of the California Western Loco and... View on www.facebook.com Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22971	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

I'm blown away by the new performance of the General with its latest motor. As I watched the video, I was reminded of my earliest days in the hobby. How the heck did we ever put up with out of the box performance like that ??? It was only that we quickly learned about lubing and tuning our models that any of us stuck with the hobby. I gotta get a bunch of those newer motors for my old-era models like the AristoCraft steamers !!! Best to Ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jul 3, 2014, at 11:16 AM, cwrailman@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > For those of you new to this forum, in our 02/23/2013 Blog titled > Remotoring a Mantua General or Making it RTR we demonstrated how to > remotor one of the vintage General’s. This blog was revised a few > days later to show a second, more powerful motor being installed. > There is a video showing how the locomotive ran straight out of the > box and again during the various stages of remotoring. > > > Since that time I have heard from other modelers who have performed > the remotoring process and added some details to their models or > completely reworked them. With a little bit of effort these can be > made to operate rather well. > > Denny > > Janitor in Training > > CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops > > WEB site: http://www.cwrailman.com/ > > Facebook: CWRailman > > <39581_125096397546669_4049514_n.jpg> > CWRailman > Check out CWRailman, Adventures in Model Railroading. The home of > the California Western Loco and... > View on www.facebook.com > Preview by Yahoo > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22972	From: cwrailman	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

Mike, That original RTR was the entire focus of that presentation.  Someone had bought that model along with three of the vintage cars in a set and when it did not run it spent the next 10 or more years in a closet.  I then bought the loco and cars all still in their original packages (cars were never removed) for next to nothing from an estate sale at our local swap meet.  You wonder how many other models have caused similar negative experiences and or maybe caused the purchaser to consider another hobby.   If you check out our CWRailman Projects page you will see that motor used in numerous projects.  While the metal General was the first, it spawned the remotoring of three similar 4-4-0 projects.  Those came about because modelers wrote to us asking if the motor would work in other models. I actually went out and bought the models just to do those projects.     That same motor was used in about four brass remotoring projects.  Unless you plan on doing the Bullet Train and if you appreciate slow smooth operating speeds then you might like this motors operational characteristics.   For those who are interested in doing remotoring projects you might want to bookmark Ken Clarks’s excellent motor listing.  While the motor used in the General is not included so far on his list, he has accumulated the other motors in the list info by doing the testing himself. Denny Janitor in Training CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops WEB site: http://www.cwrailman.com/ Facebook: CWRailman  CWRailman Check out CWRailman, Adventures in Model Railroading. The home of the California Western Loco and... View on www.facebook.com Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22973	From: Denis Long	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

OK Fred, it’s not good news. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22974	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

Hopefully, a couple of us will scope out the available Brit drivers, find a decent match, and somehow someone will make some 3d printed parts available.... And some etched parts to finish it off. I think its more of a Fall venture. I've certainly got in mind that we had a lot more 4-4-0's from small builders in that era that look rather different from the typical General. Some long forgotten 1850 built steamers lasted close to 1900. Oddly enough, one of those early steamers was the radically different 1956 B&O Hayes [Winans] 4-6-0 Camel. http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/boilers/fig4a.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/B%2BO_173_camelback_locomotive.jpg/220px-B%2BO_173_camelback_locomotive.jpg As one example of the odd-ball stuff that was still running here and there. or for a different 4-4-0 http://www.ahrtp.com/HallofFameOnline1/images/No.12322-4-0.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10365994_10201563038952353_2854110699865217597_n.jpg [ short version... http://tinyurl.com/mgqhcyk ] Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jul 3, 2014, at 6:11 PM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > OK Fred, it’s not good news. > Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22975	From: larry Smith	Date: 7/3/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

Everyone David Hoffman has new mechanisms for Civil War era locos including a 4-2-0. He is also looking for Bachmann 4-4-0s for the new mechanisms in any condition. Larry Smith On 7/3/2014 6:48 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Hopefully, a couple of us will scope out the available Brit drivers, find a decent match, and somehow someone will make some 3d printed parts available.... And some etched parts to finish it off. > > I think its more of a Fall venture. > > I've certainly got in mind that we had a lot more 4-4-0's from small builders in that era that look rather different from the typical General. > > Some long forgotten 1850 built steamers lasted close to 1900. Oddly enough, one of those early steamers was the radically different 1956 B&O Hayes [Winans] 4-6-0 Camel. > > http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/boilers/fig4a.jpg > > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/B%2BO_173_camelback_locomotive.jpg/220px-B%2BO_173_camelback_locomotive.jpg > > As one example of the odd-ball stuff that was still running here and there. > > or for a different 4-4-0 > > http://www.ahrtp.com/HallofFameOnline1/images/No.12322-4-0.jpg > > https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10365994_10201563038952353_2854110699865217597_n.jpg > > [ short version... http://tinyurl.com/mgqhcyk ] > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Jul 3, 2014, at 6:11 PM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >> >> OK Fred, it’s not good news. >> Denis > > ------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22976	From: maryinvt2	Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Speaking of 4-4-0's

Reading the posts about the General reminded me of the bash I just completed of the famous Pennsy D-16 4-4-0 #1223 that ran on the Strasburg RR for many years. In 1989 it was retired and placed across the street at the Pennsylvania RR Museum where it resides today. I used an IHC chassis for my model and proceed to remake the boiler resemble the prototype as much as I could. Here's a link to my photo album titled "PRR 4-4-0 Remake". https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/2063600728 Richard in Vermont Yahoo! Groups Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content. View on groups.yahoo.com Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22977	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: Speaking of 4-4-0's

VERY GOOD JOB!  You poured a lot of effort into that locomotive. Happy railroading. Don Staton in VA ========================================================================== On 7/4/2014 5:42 PM, rh@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Reading the posts about the General reminded me of the bash I just completed of the famous Pennsy D-16 4-4-0 #1223 that ran on the Strasburg RR for many years. In 1989 it was retired and placed across the street at the Pennsylvania RR Museum where it resides today. I used an IHC chassis for my model and proceed to remake the boiler resemble the prototype as much as I could. Here's a link to my photo album titled "PRR 4-4-0 Remake". https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/2063600728 Richard in Vermont Yahoo! Groups Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content. View on groups.yahoo.com Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22978	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: question

Where can I find plastic brake hangers for HO steam? Don Staton in VA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22979	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 7/4/2014
Subject: Re: question

On 7/4/2014 5:06 PM, 'Donald R. Staton' chpln1@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Where can I find plastic brake hangers for HO steam? Don Staton in VA I would try Precision Scale, they have most of the old Kemtron line and I know Kemtron made several sizes and styles in plastic. Don Don Dellmann  Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22980	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Re: question

My thanks to all who responded. Don Staton in VA ======================================================================== On 7/4/2014 6:31 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:   On 7/4/2014 5:06 PM, 'Donald R. Staton' chpln1@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Where can I find plastic brake hangers for HO steam? Don Staton in VA I would try Precision Scale, they have most of the old Kemtron line and I know Kemtron made several sizes and styles in plastic. Don Don Dellmann  Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22981	From: rrdeffinger	Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Re: Speaking of 4-4-0's

Very nice job!   How did you do the firebox extension by the cab?  I was working on the IHC 2-6-0 and turning it into a Great Northern  looking engine with the firebox built up.  Bob D.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22982	From: rrdeffinger	Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Re: question

I have some, made by Cal Scale in plastic or brass.   Try Walthers or EBay. Bob D.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22983	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/5/2014
Subject: Amtrak Gangdam style.......

Give it a look........ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFYLMcY6yCI&sns=em It's on my drive and in my iTunes now.......... Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22984	From: corlissbs	Date: 7/7/2014
Subject: Hobbytown For Sale

I have an ABA set of Hobbytown multi-drive diesels for sale.  The B-unit has the largest Sagami motor that would fit and the two A-units are filled with lead.  The plastic bodies are FA bodies, custom painted for the New Haven.   If anyone is interested, email me and I will send a pic.  Make a fair offer.   Brad Smith corlissbs@... Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (35) .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22985	From: maryinvt2	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Speaking of 4-4-0's

Hi Bob, Thank you for the kind words. As the starting point for the fire box extension (which is called a Belpaire fire box), I glued a strip of Evergreen styrene 3/16" angle #296 onto each side of the boiler and then filled in around the angle with plastic putty with lots of sanding between applications until it was nice and smooth. I also had to relocate the sand dome as well as make a taller smoke stack. The stack was made using 1/4" plastic tubing and the lip at the top of the stack was done with sewing thread wrapped around and glued in place with super glue then sanded smooth. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22986	From: cwrailman	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: [Civil_War_RRs] New Hope for the General?

I could not find this when I made my previous post on remotoring a Mantua General.  Check out this rebuild / modification / bash of a Mantua General.  Greg started out with a basic remotoring but took it….. well you check it out and see what he ended up with.  This is probably the biggest transformation of a General I have ever seen.  http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=39876   Denny Janitor in Training CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops WEB site: http://www.cwrailman.com/ Facebook: CWRailman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22987	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?

Attachments : image-22987.jpg image-22987(1).jpg Hi all, I just purchased this Red Ball Southern Pacific Mountain with Vanderbilt tender on eBay. The characteristic Red Ball saw marks are on the reverse where the piece was cut from the runner. Have not every seen one of these "tokens" nor read about them. Red Ball founder M. Dale Newton, a Southern Pacific fan, had planned a steam locomotive line for after the war, but it never came to be. Does anyone have any information on this interesting Red Ball "locomotive." Jay

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22988	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?

Attachments : image-22988.jpg Hi all, not sure why, but I attached two different photos to my previous post and the second one showed up twice. This is happened on several occasions. Here is the front of the Red Ball "Espee" locomotive "token." W. Jay W.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22989	From: Doug Harris	Date: 7/8/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !? [1 Attachment]

On 09/07/14 6:35, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Hi all, not sure why, but I attached two different photos to my > previous post and the second one showed up twice. This is happened on > several occasions. Here is the front of the Red Ball"Espee" > locomotive"token." W. Jay W. Have you got your html on?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22990	From: Model RailRoad Warehouse	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?

Great Find Jay The molds for drivers, spoked truck wheels, boiler front, tender parts, loco frame, headlight and  some small details and mechanical parts  were included when we (Wabash Valley Lines,Inc)  purchased Red Ball in 1976. There was also a supply of turned wood tanks for the Vandy tender which we briefly made available as a kit in the 70s. There were some misc. early inventory parts we received from Howell without molds--but none for this engine--no cab parts or molds for them.  Some of the tender & engine part molds were used for parts in other kits by us and boiler front (parts) were sold to Mellor for some of his conversion kits. Boiler fronts were also molded in styrene (our Cannonball Car Shop label) using the Red Ball mold. We retained all  the molds we had received from Howell Day, and included them in the shipment of Red Ball to LaBelle Woodworking five years ago. Some of the molds appeared to be very early vintage (perhaps even earlier than actual production parts- I always wondered about the cast frame  but had no kit to compare with the molds). The wheel molds were of a somewhat later make and well done- yet soft metal drivers are certainly primitive technology.  Boiler front and tender part molds were apparently of later vintage-- observations one can best make studying the actual molds and comparing with other kit part molds made similarly- noting the known release dates on specific kits. This leads me to believe the kit was a long term "baby in development" for Dale, probably even started before WWII but possibly  still needing Anderson's mold making skills. (There were other long unfinished kits in this category ,like the pile driver we finished).  Dale never discussed this model with me and it was certainly not in Howell Day's vision of the line. The hobby's technology had advanced beyond  the  mechanical parts by the mid 50s yet some parts were highly enough detailed to be credible in this era. Merle Rice Model RR Warehouse   Home of the Troop Cars, GE Steeple Cabs. New NOW--Mann's Creek Log Buggies and Hoppers in HO and O are on our website, www.mrrwarehouse.com ! Check it out today ! If you recieved a confirming order email you may phone 1-800-672-8762 (EST business hours) with credit card info or click here for PayPal (Mastercard/Visa/elctronicCheck payments: https://secure.paypal.com/affil/pal=sales@... . Send your PayPal payment to Sales@... . Thanks for your interest in Model Railroad Warehouse. We look forward to hearing from you again.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22991	From: the_plainsman	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !? [1 Attachment]

Thanks Doug, I will have to check as I am using two different PCs in two separate locations and also my smart phone to make posts. Had not seem to have any problems until yahoo began making changes themselves, though. Jay W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22992	From: Robert Driggers	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001

Attachments : Need help identifying this brass steam engine so I can get missing parts. Can anyone help? All it says is Japan on bottom. Or if you have parts that will work, please let me know   Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001 VIEW SLIDE SHOW DOWNLOAD ALL This album has 6 photos and will be available on SkyDrive until 10/8/2014. Your message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Unknown steam engine 001 Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending or receiving certain types of file attachments.  Check your e-mail security settings to determine how attachments are handled.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22993	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !? [2 Attachments]

Attachments : image-22993.jpg image-22993(1).jpg image-22993(2).jpg From: Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; To: Vintage HO Group <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>; Vintage HO Group <vintageho@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: [vintageHO] Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !? [2 Attachments] Sent: Tue, Jul 8, 2014 6:31:01 PM   [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below] Hi all, I just purchased this Red Ball Southern Pacific Mountain with Vanderbilt tender on eBay. The characteristic Red Ball saw marks are on the reverse where the piece was cut from the runner. Have not every seen one of these "tokens" nor read about them. Red Ball founder M. Dale Newton, a Southern Pacific fan, had planned a steam locomotive line for after the war, but it never came to be. Does anyone have any information on this interesting Red Ball "locomotive." Jay

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22994	From: the_plainsman	Date: 7/10/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?

Hi Merle, Thank you for all of the additional information about M. Dale Newton's "stillborn" steam locomotive project. I have one of those Vanderbilt tender kits, actually the partial set of parts you were clearing out about seven or eight years ago. I also have a number of interesting 45 (?) inch spoked locomotive trailing truck wheelsets that Newton imported from Britain in the 1940s. He talked them up a bit in a couple of his newsletters, but I assume he was stuck with them for years. I'm not too familiar with SP prototypes and always mean to check to see if that type were used on any early 20th-century SP steam locomotives. They later showed up being offered by Vincent Waterman's Trackside Specialties, then located in Manville New Jersey, only a few miles away from Howell originally purchased by Day in nearby Dunellen. Vincent Waterman was a participant at the Penn Line bankruptcy sale, and Howell Day soon begin marketing some of the Penn Line Ford tractors and trailers as flatcar loads. I suspect that there was a bit of "horse trading" of parts between the two of them involving excess stock that the other could better sell. Perhaps Vincent's son Jim, a fellow member here, might remember some of those details. I've always been impressed with your ability to "repurpose" a number of those original Red Ball interesting parts into new and interesting kits! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22995	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 7/11/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Red Ball Espee 4-8-2 !?

What are those underbody shots? Looks like a passenger car! -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22996	From: Dr. Robert Driggers	Date: 7/11/2014
Subject: Re: Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001

Attachments : This may help The tender has a number 9 molded on both sides and on the back   From: mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 3:06 PM To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001     Need help identifying this brass steam engine so I can get missing parts. Can anyone help? All it says is Japan on bottom. Or if you have parts that will work, please let me know   Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001 VIEW SLIDE SHOW DOWNLOAD ALL This album has 6 photos and will be available on SkyDrive until 10/8/2014. Your message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Unknown steam engine 001 Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending or receiving certain types of file attachments.  Check your e-mail security settings to determine how attachments are handled.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22997	From: saddlewood1	Date: 7/12/2014
Subject: VCR TAPES

If anyone is interested, I have two sets of train tapes.  One of them is an all steam 7 tape set.  "The Steam Train Legacy(American). Contact me off list. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22998	From: shooksbronze	Date: 7/12/2014
Subject: Re: Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001

Could be a Indianapolis Union 0-8-0 imported by M B Austin around 1960. Don -----Original Message----- From: Robert Driggers robertanned@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageho <vintageho@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Jul 10, 2014 3:06 pm Subject: [vintageHO] Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001 Need help identifying this brass steam engine so I can get missing parts. Can anyone help? All it says is Japan on bottom. Or if you have parts that will work, please let me know   Emailing: Unknown steam engine 001 VIEW SLIDE SHOW DOWNLOAD ALL This album has 6 photos and will be available on SkyDrive until 10/8/2014. Your message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Unknown steam engine 001 Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending or receiving certain types of file attachments.  Check your e-mail security settings to determine how attachments are handled.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 22999	From: saddlewood1	Date: 7/13/2014
Subject: Rock Island VHS Tapes

Hello, I have the following tapes for sale:  Pentrex "Rock Island Wheels of Progress-Big Trains Rolling"  AND Green Frog's "The Rock Island Railroad--Classic Ops. from the '50s through the '70s". They are $4.50 and $5.00+ $4.50 mailing. Best regards, Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23000	From: rcjge	Date: 7/16/2014
Subject: Vintage rolling Stock for sale

Hey Fella's  I am heading to the Catskills on Friday and because I can ship from there to keep costs down I'm offering four Ambroid Kits complete. 1 in 5000 NYC Container Car 1 in 5000 1 1/2 door Automobile Car 3 Bay Steel Hopper Wood Chip Car 8 hatch CPR Reefer Car. I also have a Lionel (HO) Track cleaner car & a  Varney Pullman PA-300 Psgr car partially build. All of these to the best of my knowledge are complete. Email me if you have an offer. 1st decent offer gets them. I'd like to sell them together but, well we'll see. Cheers, Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23001	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/17/2014
Subject: Mystery Chassis/Floor, Subj. was Espee Red Ball Locomotive

Attachments : NYC Subway R-10 by IHP.jpg Hi Walter B. and All,   Apologies for the errant post and photograph while I was "battling" Yahoo last week - I had inadvertently emailed a cryptic photo of an Imperial Hobby Productions - IHP - New York City R-10 subway car model floor/chassis. The floor/chassis was designed to accept the modern Bowser power trucks and motor specifically designed for traction models, though an under floor unit such as the relatively new NWSL Stanton power truck may be also used.  Attached is a photograph of the rest, a cast resin body and floor/chassis, (not shown are the clear window inserts, truck side frames etc). The prototype R-10 New York City subway cars were built in 1948 and retired in 1989; for more information on the prototype, see http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/R-10_(ACF,_1948) My three primary modeling interests are Vintage HO, the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad and predecessors as well as most other North Jersey railroads, and though never a resident of the city, the New York City Subways. Remarkably, almost 90 different HO scale models of various classes of IRT, BMT, IND subway and elevated cars, the NYW&B as well as current NYC Transit/MTA subway cars which have been manufactured since the very early 1960's, in brass, injection molded plastic and resin, and in combinations of white metal and wood, some of them properly labled as "vintage."    In fact, it was finding one of those early 1960's vintage unlabeled cast white metal and wood Traction Models (Farmingdale, NY) kits at a Pennsylvania Train Show for an IRT Lo-V with a complete under floor power truck manufactured by the same firm (see April 1964 issue of MR for the review) which kicked off this aspect of my modeling. Another Yahoo group, the NYCTMG - New York City Mass Transit Modelers Group, is very active and counts several modeling notables in our membership such as Al Westerfield.  The separate NYC Mass Transit Modelers Association hold a large show each October in the Rutger's University student center or gym.   Mass transit and subway models for Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington and San Francisco cars have been or are also available, and some, particularly by Joel Lovich - MTS and Quentin Carnecelli's Q Car. Co. and older Walthers fall on the edge or within the scope of our Vintage HO group.   When I began, there was no guide to the HO scale models of NYC cars produced, so I began a database guide posted on the NYCTMG Yahoo page which details and tracks over 90 different models with over 900 data entries and I have branched out to create lists for other scales, too, from O to TT and N. During the creation of that main HO list, I was able to become acquainted with all but one all of the original manufacturers and one even gave me a copy of his substantial brass model import records as a reference! It was as interesting project for me as it was for some to get to know William Walthers, Gordon Varney, M. Dale Newton and Irv Athearn a half century ago.   Thanks to all for permitting this bit of a detour by an accident post of a mystery photo, but as I said, some of these kits are vintage HO as well and very interesting in their own right.  And it might provide a clue as to what that mystery model is in your collection.   W. Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23002	From: newyorkcentralfan	Date: 7/17/2014
Subject: Re: Streamlined Varney

Nice job. Your 1001 Hudson looks like a cross between the cab, running gear and driver fascia of a NYC Commodore Vanderbilt J-1e mated with a boiler and pilot shroud of the Dreyfuss J3 Hudson used on the 20th Century Ltd. http://www.jitterbuzz.com/strml/commodore_web.jpg http://www.jitterbuzz.com/strml/commodore_web.jpg View on www.jitterbuzz.com Preview by Yahoo http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/NYC_Hudson2.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a... View on upload.wikimedia.org Preview by Yahoo Eric

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23003	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 7/18/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery Chassis/Floor, Subj. was Espee Red Ball Locomotive [1 At

Thank you! Enlightening! Walter On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below] Hi Walter B. and All,   Apologies for the errant post and photograph while I was "battling" Yahoo last week - I had inadvertently emailed a cryptic photo of an Imperial Hobby Productions - IHP - New York City R-10 subway car model floor/chassis. The floor/chassis was designed to accept the modern Bowser power trucks and motor specifically designed for traction models, though an under floor unit such as the relatively new NWSL Stanton power truck may be also used.  Attached is a photograph of the rest, a cast resin body and floor/chassis, (not shown are the clear window inserts, truck side frames etc). The prototype R-10 New York City subway cars were built in 1948 and retired in 1989; for more information on the prototype, see http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/R-10_(ACF,_1948) My three primary modeling interests are Vintage HO, the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad and predecessors as well as most other North Jersey railroads, and though never a resident of the city, the New York City Subways. Remarkably, almost 90 different HO scale models of various classes of IRT, BMT, IND subway and elevated cars, the NYW&B as well as current NYC Transit/MTA subway cars which have been manufactured since the very early 1960's, in brass, injection molded plastic and resin, and in combinations of white metal and wood, some of them properly labled as "vintage."    In fact, it was finding one of those early 1960's vintage unlabeled cast white metal and wood Traction Models (Farmingdale, NY) kits at a Pennsylvania Train Show for an IRT Lo-V with a complete under floor power truck manufactured by the same firm (see April 1964 issue of MR for the review) which kicked off this aspect of my modeling. Another Yahoo group, the NYCTMG - New York City Mass Transit Modelers Group, is very active and counts several modeling notables in our membership such as Al Westerfield.  The separate NYC Mass Transit Modelers Association hold a large show each October in the Rutger's University student center or gym.   Mass transit and subway models for Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington and San Francisco cars have been or are also available, and some, particularly by Joel Lovich - MTS and Quentin Carnecelli's Q Car. Co. and older Walthers fall on the edge or within the scope of our Vintage HO group.   When I began, there was no guide to the HO scale models of NYC cars produced, so I began a database guide posted on the NYCTMG Yahoo page which details and tracks over 90 different models with over 900 data entries and I have branched out to create lists for other scales, too, from O to TT and N. During the creation of that main HO list, I was able to become acquainted with all but one all of the original manufacturers and one even gave me a copy of his substantial brass model import records as a reference! It was as interesting project for me as it was for some to get to know William Walthers, Gordon Varney, M. Dale Newton and Irv Athearn a half century ago.   Thanks to all for permitting this bit of a detour by an accident post of a mystery photo, but as I said, some of these kits are vintage HO as well and very interesting in their own right.  And it might provide a clue as to what that mystery model is in your collection.   W. Jay W. -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23004	From: iskandr@...	Date: 7/19/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage 2-8-0

IINM, this is a Reading 2-8-0.  Mantua listed on pre WWII, Varney post.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23005	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/27/2014
Subject: Cast Bronze ALCO PA

Attachments : image-23005.jpg Hi All, A few months ago, I purchased a cast bronze Alco PA unit. I am not exactly sure who manufactured it but it is definitely different a different model than the cast aluminum Cambron PA pictured in front of it. Unfortunately I erased a better photo of it and will take another and post it tomorrow. In the meantime, any ideas as to the manufacturer ? W. Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23006	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 7/27/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze ALCO PA [1 Attachment]

Just a side comment......... It is rather awe-inspiring that two different masters that seem to so well follow the prototype were made for these; likely from two very different people. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Jul 27, 2014, at 8:10 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below] > > Hi All, A few months ago, I purchased a cast bronze Alco PA unit. I am not exactly sure who manufactured it but it is definitely different a different model than the cast aluminum Cambron PA pictured in front of it. Unfortunately I erased a better photo of it and will take another and post it tomorrow. In the meantime, any ideas as to the manufacturer ? W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23007	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze ALCO PA

> > Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:10 pm (PDT) . Posted by: > "Jay Wanczyk" the_plainsman > Hi All, A few months ago, I purchased a cast bronze Alco PA unit. I am not exactly sure who manufactured it but it is definitely different a different model than the cast aluminum Cambron PA pictured in front of it. Unfortunately I erased a better photo of it and will take another and post it tomorrow. In the meantime, any ideas as to the manufacturer ? W. Jay W. Interesting. I have a set of FT's (A and B) that look a lot like the front PA. Like you, I would be interesting in who madethem. Howard Garner --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23008	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze ALCO PA

Howard Garner, Please attach photos, or if in the photo albums already, please direct us to them. -- Thanks, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23009	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Cast bronze EMD FT's

Attachments : image-23009.jpg image-23009(1).jpg Hi Howard G., and All, I also have sand cast EMD FT's from the "bronze age." Two of them, matching A and B units, have integral cast steps and lack any roof detail, i.e. exhaust ports and dynamic break grills. Presumably, it was a previous owner (or less likely, the manufacturer) who drilled a single hole in the bottom of each step, in each of the four side porthole windows, in each windshield panel and in the headlight to facilitate inserting his jewelers saw to begin the arduous process of enlarging each of the openings. For the A unit, the drilled windshield and headlight holes give it a somewhat comic appearance! _____________________________________ This past year, I purchased an almost matching A unit. However this second A unit seems to have been an evolutionary model in that the likely hard to cast, and harder to finish steps were no longer cast as part of the body. In addition the roof now sports the prototypical details missing from my first two castings. All other details seem to match. ______________________________________ Several years ago, Jim Heckard and I tried to sort out the manufacturer(s) of these cast bronze FT units, as there were several. Without checking it is possible that they were first marketed by Garco and or later by Dallas. We also asked the question whether the castings were done by Adams foundry. I had also found an illustrated ad in an early MR ad showing FT's produced by a firm known as "Beeman," though the photograph of those seemed to have shown overly large proportioned rooftop details. ______________________________________ See attached photos. As a side note, the matching "predrilled" FT's were my first intentional vintage HO purchase at a local, now defunct North Jersey train show held for several decades in Dover New Jersey. A mostly Lionel dealer had a five dollar for any item "junkbox" with a few HO scale items thrown in for good measure. ______________________________________ At one show I dug through and found them and was intrigued, but was not totally convinced I really "needed" them. Two or three months later at the next show, I again ran across them and holding them up, asked the seller "what are these?" He replied he did not know and then sensing he had a live customer, quickly laughed and added "five dollars for both!" And so, besides having my original Penn Line H-9 and GG-1 and Athearn Hustler which magically became "vintage HO" over the three or so decades I had owned them, I now became a vintage HO operator and collector… W. Jay W. Ps., That is a Cambron cast aluminum EMD E-unit behind the FT's.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23010	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction

Just about an hour ago, another record price was set, for one of the Winton C&O Allegheny's (assembled, 1950's version).  It went for $1136.00.  Luckily, Jim Heckard, I and I believe Sean have this model but I never suspected it would go nearly this high as I followed it along.  But then, it's probably as scarce as a Penn Line Crusader, and described as a good runner.  They came in kit form and were a bear to put together.  For those curious, go to eBay # 281391204612; it's a great looking model.   Someone with over 90,000 eBay transactions gobbled this up.  Has to be a deep-pocket collector as I doubt he'd be reselling it that fast at that number he put into it.     Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23011	From: Garry Spear	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction

I was a lucky person to see one of these engines running on my layout.  Unfortunately it would not go through some of my track work.  But there was a Winton Berkshire with the Allegheny and we ran that for about 30 minutes.  It was a treat to see these engines and even greater treat to see them run.  An experience I don't ever expect to have again. Garry Spear On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 1:33 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Just about an hour ago, another record price was set, for one of the Winton C&O Allegheny's (assembled, 1950's version).  It went for $1136.00.  Luckily, Jim Heckard, I and I believe Sean have this model but I never suspected it would go nearly this high as I followed it along.  But then, it's probably as scarce as a Penn Line Crusader, and described as a good runner.  They came in kit form and were a bear to put together.  For those curious, go to eBay # 281391204612; it's a great looking model.   Someone with over 90,000 eBay transactions gobbled this up.  Has to be a deep-pocket collector as I doubt he'd be reselling it that fast at that number he put into it.     Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23012	From: trainliker	Date: 7/28/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction

Not sure if a deep pocket collector or somebody with a buy/sell business who might have a penchant for the occasional model railroad item, or perhaps even bought it on behalf of someone else.   The bidder's "30 day bid history" is all over the map with clothing, sporting goods, art, jewelry, music, coins, cameras, etc.  The only "Toys & Hobbies" item was Disney related.  Bid on 1,690 items in just the last 30 days.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] To: VintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 28, 2014 10:33 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Winton Engineering Auction   Just about an hour ago, another record price was set, for one of the Winton C&O Allegheny's (assembled, 1950's version).  It went for $1136.00.  Luckily, Jim Heckard, I and I believe Sean have this model but I never suspected it would go nearly this high as I followed it along.  But then, it's probably as scarce as a Penn Line Crusader, and described as a good runner.  They came in kit form and were a bear to put together.  For those curious, go to eBay # 281391204612; it's a great looking model.   Someone with over 90,000 eBay transactions gobbled this up.  Has to be a deep-pocket collector as I doubt he'd be reselling it that fast at that number he put into it.     Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23013	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB

> > Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:03 am (PDT) . Posted by: > "Walter Bayer II" al45390 > Howard Garner, > > Please attach photos, or if in the photo albums already, please direct us > to them. > > -- > Thanks, > Walter Posted a new folder in the Photos section Howard's FTs These were found at the Springfield Show this January. Any ID help would be appreciated. Howard Garner --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23014	From: louis niederlander	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB

> Posted a new folder in the Photos section > Howard's FTs > These were found at the Springfield Show this January. > > Any ID help would be appreciated. > > Howard Garner >   I'll take a guess:  Adams & Sons Castings. Regards,   Louis N

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23015	From: the_plainsman	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB

I agree, Louis, N. Adams & Sons apparently was the "go to company" for castings for many model companies in both HO and O scale. If any of the principles ever kept the corporate records, those archives would be fascinating to review. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23016	From: the_plainsman	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB

Hi Howard G., A very nice find but definitely different from from the ones I found, especially in the nose contour (the ones I have appear to be more rounded behind and to the sides of the headlight) and also differ in the exhaust and dynamic brake grids on the roof. Both versions I have sport crudely cast side openings that were to be filed square and have screen installed; yours has a nice grill pattern cast in place, but that mold modification could've been done to mine as well, as a later running change which was possible with these sandcast models. Tonight, I will try to locate that small late 1940's MR add from the firm I seem to remember as "Beeman" which shows the photograph of an FT with roof top details similar to yours but raised higher. W. Jay W. Again, as pointed out earlier in another post, we have several individual manufacturers vying to produce, in this case, the best "FT."

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23017	From: louis niederlander	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB

I remember working at Sparks Hobby Shop in Cleveland mid 60's.  We had one case that was just A&S bronze castings.  I don't remember the locomotive shells but i sure do wish i had the contents of that case.  Most of it was O scale; Jim [Spirakus, the owner] was into O scale.   The form and finish meet the requirements.   And the best part was the Erie main line going thru the intersection at the corner; and 75c an hour to top it all off!   Sorry for drifting. Louis N   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 10:30:02 -0700 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB I agree, Louis, N. Adams & Sons apparently was the "go to company" for castings for many model companies in both HO and O scale. If any of the principles ever kept the corporate records, those archives would be fascinating to review. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23018	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 7/29/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB

There's the good chance that these bodies may have been cast by Adams & Sons Casting, but they never marketed anything directly.  This foundry would have had to be commissioned to cast these bodies by one of the early H0 manufacturers of that time, such as Harry L. Garrett or Gordon Varney or . . .  (Adams produced castings for both of these manufacturers, and very likely at least several others).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 7/29/2014 3:56:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   > Posted a new folder in the Photos section > Howard's FTs > These were found at the Springfield Show this January. > > Any ID help would be appreciated. > > Howard Garner >   I'll take a guess:  Adams & Sons Castings. Regards,   Louis N

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23019	From: Doug Harris	Date: 7/30/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction

On 29/07/14 7:56, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Not sure if a deep pocket collector or somebody with a buy/sell > business who might have a penchant for the occasional model railroad > item, or perhaps even bought it on behalf of someone else. > > The bidder's "30 day bid history" is all over the map with clothing, > sporting goods, art, jewelry, music, coins, cameras, etc. The only > "Toys& Hobbies" item was Disney related. Bid on 1,690 items in just > the last 30 days. Sounds like a dealer.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23020	From: Maynard Keith Franklin	Date: 7/31/2014
Subject: Holiday in Hong Kong.

I'm writing this with tears in my eyes, my family and I came down here to Hong Kong for a short vacation,unfortunately we were mugged at the park of the hotel where we stayed all cash,credit card and mobile phone were stolen off us but luckily we still have our passports with us. We've been to the Embassy and the Police here but they're not helping issues at all the bad news is our flight will be leaving in less than 12-hrs from now but we're having problems settling the hotel bills and the hotel manager won't let us leave until we settle the bills. I'll need a quick loan from you in the amount of $2,500. I promise to make the refund once we get back home. Please let me know if  i can count on you and i need you to keep checking your email because it's the only way i can reach you.   Keith N9l472@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23021	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 8/1/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday in Hong Kong.

This is a SCAM --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23022	From: denverrails	Date: 8/1/2014
Subject: American Flyer? "critter" with side rods

I'm thinning my collection and I've listed what I think is an American Flyer 4 wheel diesel with side rods. I've listed this on eBay  201139245740 Two things: Can one of the group tell me more abut this model? If someone on the list is interested, contact me off line at dim01521@... and I see if I can stop the eBay listing. I also have an old die cast C&NW 4-4-2 for which I will post pictures to see if one of the members can tell me more about it. Thanks!! Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23023	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/1/2014
Subject: Re: Winton Engineering Auction

Yes I still have mine... You will find plenty pictures of it if you google: winton brass allegheny   As for the buyer... my hunch is he is one of those exporters who frequently have something to do about an airport in their username.  ie: flight2sin (43362)  Often these models go to a buyer somewhere in japan or elsewhere when I sell. But I ship it to usually a place in CA.  Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 5:13 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Winton Engineering Auction   On 29/07/14 7:56, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Not sure if a deep pocket collector or somebody with a buy/sell > business who might have a penchant for the occasional model railroad > item, or perhaps even bought it on behalf of someone else. > > The bidder's "30 day bid history" is all over the map with clothing, > sporting goods, art, jewelry, music, coins, cameras, etc. The only > "Toys& Hobbies" item was Disney related. Bid on 1,690 items in just > the last 30 days. Sounds like a dealer.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23024	From: Dale Smith	Date: 8/1/2014
Subject: Re: American Flyer? "critter" with side rods

Definitely AF HO.  For more photos and the sets it was found in check out www.gilbertho.org.  The 31021, offered in 1959 and 1960 is closely related to the black 31013 offered in 1958.   The 31013 differed in that it was black and had an eccentric crank attached to the rear wheels.  The catalogs of these models are kind of confusing as the listing for separate sale in both the 1959 and 1960 catalogs pictured the 31013.  In 1959 the text says it is a 31013, but in 1960 it says it is a 31021.  The set pictures for both years show the blue locomotive.  I would guess that old stock of the 31013 may have been available for separate sale in 1959 but that the cheaper to make 31021 was included in the sets for both years.   My 31021 came in a 1960 set box.  The 1958 sets included the black 31013 locomotive.  Catalogs are available at www.myflyertrains.org. Dale Smith On 8/1/2014 7:47 AM, dim01521@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I'm thinning my collection and I've listed what I think is an American Flyer 4 wheel diesel with side rods. I've listed this on eBay  201139245740 Two things: Can one of the group tell me more abut this model? If someone on the list is interested, contact me off line at dim01521@... and I see if I can stop the eBay listing. I also have an old die cast C&NW 4-4-2 for which I will post pictures to see if one of the members can tell me more about it. Thanks!! Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23025	From: denverrails	Date: 8/3/2014
Subject: Re: American Flyer? "critter" with side rods

Thank you Dale, I appreciate the information.   Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23026	From: saddlewood1	Date: 8/5/2014
Subject: Mantua Catalog

Hello All, I have for sale, what I believe is the last Mantua Catalog-----2001, 75th Anniversary, full color. 22 pages, chronological major achievements noted from 1926.  Shows wear in the spine area. Included is a Mantua Pacific and Tyco Mikado Assembly booklets; Parts List by Paul--metal Mantua parts, with pics of his Elesco Feedwater kit (I  may have one of these), valve gear linkage, showing main rod and everything forward of the eccentrics, and 6 of his pilots (I believe one of these left; 2003 color page of Mantua by Mod Pwr, w/price list; Railroad.Net discussion of Mantua's history; 2000, 12 page list of parts & prices; 2001 Mantua parts price list & order form; 2002 multi-page lising of all Mantua  parts, by Mdl Pwr. $5.00 + 3.00 mailing. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23027	From: rcjge	Date: 8/6/2014
Subject: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.

Hey Guys A Little OT? I need English Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure. Does anybody have them and can scan and email them to me. I picked one of these up for a song but only has French Instructions. Thanks Jeff Richmond Hill, Ont.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23028	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.

On 8/6/2014 11:45 PM, jgpedwards@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Hey Guys A Little OT? I need English Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure. Does anybody have them and can scan and email them to me. I picked one of these up for a song but only has French Instructions. Thanks Jeff Richmond Hill, Ont.   Are you talking about the "Mount Vernon Manufacturing" kit? I might have one downstairs, I'll look, I've probably had 20 of them over the last 50 years. but that kit doesn't really need instructions.  The parts are all interchangeable, you assemble them for however you want the building to look. That was the first "modular" kit, first introduced by Ulrich back around 1960, then offered by Train Miniature, That one and the Ulrich rooming house, now the Lifelike "Belvidere Downtown Hotel" consisted of interchangeable wall panels, floor pieces and roof pieces, that you could interchange and and assemble into as small or as large a building as you wanted, to fit whatever space you wanted in whatever shape you needed.  You could even combine the factory kit and the hotel kit with each other. Get about half a dozen of them and you can start to have a fairly respectable factory Don Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23029	From: rcjge	Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.

Hi Don: Yeah it's kinda a neat modular system. If you do have a copy I'd appreciate s scan. Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23030	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.

Hi Jeff, I checked to see if the original instructions from Ulrich were available on HOSeeker.org , but no luck. Ulrich, the same firm responsible for the diecast hopper and other cars as well as the neat older diecast Mack trucks, developed this modular factory kit and also the modular hotel which Life-Like also reissued decades later. You can combine any number of kits for a larger one story or multistory factory complex and Ulrich marketed them individually or in sets of three. In fact, they had several large ads in MR showing a factory complex with two and three-story structures made completely from this one kit. It's always been one of my favorite vintage factory kits. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23031	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 8/7/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.

On 8/7/2014 8:58 PM, jgpedwards@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Hi Don: Yeah it's kinda a neat modular system. If you do have a copy I'd appreciate s scan. Jeff I looked, I don't have any, but like I said, there's really nothing to the kit. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23032	From: rcjge	Date: 8/9/2014
Subject: Re: OT? Need Instructions for Life-Like Mt Vernon Structure.

Don Thanks for looking! -Jeff

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23033	From: semaphorsignal	Date: 8/13/2014
Subject: Wanted To Buy: American OO Scale

I know, I know this is a vintage HO list, but I'm sure some of you guys have some American OO scale you might want to sell. I am looking for a brass Kemtron OO scale GP7 and anything else you might have for sale. Send me a personal email if you do. Thanks, Jack Bartman Walden NY semaphorsignal@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23034	From: b60bp	Date: 8/17/2014
Subject: For Sale: Walthers and Wright Ent Passenger Car Kits

Greeting, I'm thinning down my basement shelves a bit and would like to offer a few car kits for sale. These are all classic kits with metal and wood construction, though some of the Walthers cars have plastic roofs as noted. All the  Walthers cars are 80 foot heavyweights and include many metal castings. Most include decals.Thanks for looking. --Wright Enterprises "Cascade " series 10-5 sleeper. Complete body kit with metal trucks.  $10. --Walthers  #7817 Parlor car. This one includes ductwork for a.c-equipped car and cast a.c. unit. $21 --Walthers  #7808 70 foot Executive (business) car. Nice car for tighter radius operation.  $20 --Walthers # 7814  14 section Pullman.  Includes dried up old tube of Goo!   $18 --Walthers  #7880  75 foot single window coach. Sides sealed in bag, plastic roof, super detail pack. $24 --Walthers  7832  60 foot full RPO. Sides sealed in bag, plastic roof. This is the 3-3 window arrangement    as used by GN, NP, CB&Q and numerous other lines. $22 --Walthers #933-6616  10-1-2 Pullman. Plastic roof, super detail package.  $22 --Walthers  #933-6620  70 foot Baggage-Express car. Plastic roof, sides sealed in bag, super details, all     parts sealed in bags. $22 --Walthers #7821  70 foot Baggage-Express car.  Wood roof appears to be a substitute and needs to be cut to      length. Some tarnish on sides. Earlier kit. $15 Postage via insured Priority Mail in US ranging from $5.80 for one car up to $12 depending on number. Barry Peltier

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23035	From: maryinvt2	Date: 8/17/2014
Subject: Main Rods Needed for a Mantua/Tyco 0-6-0 Shifter

Anyone have a set of main rods for the subject loco? I will be glad to send you payment via PayPal or check. Thanks. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23036	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/18/2014
Subject: Re: Main Rods Needed for a Mantua/Tyco 0-6-0 Shifter

I have some I’ll be glad to send for postage. I won’t be able to get them mailed until Tuesday but if you don’t get a better (Faster?) offer consider them yours.   Just to be certain your speaking of the “Big Six” tender style 0-6-0, yes?   Send me your snail mail address off group.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2014 11:42 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Main Rods Needed for a Mantua/Tyco 0-6-0 Shifter     Anyone have a set of main rods for the subject loco? I will be glad to send you payment via PayPal or check. Thanks. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23037	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 8/18/2014
Subject: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?

'Must have been bored today; just bought 3 American Beauty GN passenger car kits. Somewhere in the past I seem to recall others on this List saying they were good kits. I've never seen one in the flesh; so never have built one. Look to be the long, Empire Builder lightweights I think. I'm no expert on varnish equipment. So what did I get myself in to? I suspect I will be looking for trucks for them. Any recommendations? Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23038	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/18/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?

Dennis,   Next to Blue Line passenger Car kits, you've bought some great looking varnish.  Yes, they're streamlined "lightweights," using 4-wheel passenger trucks rather than 6-wheel.  These trucks should be included in the kits as they were furnished this way by the factory.  If your kits don't include them, then someone took them out either to sell separately to gain an even better profit or used them on different kits of they're own (such as Blue Line, which also produced truck kits, but which weren't furnished with their passenger car kits).   One major thing to watch for with these kits is not to get too much adhesive in the joints that join the sides with the roof & floor, as unlike most Walther's kits (except for there factory-painted "Favorites" series), you need to be careful about having to wipe off excess adhesive from the factory paint and marring it.    The trucks come as kits and so need to be put together.  If you've never built truck kits, be sure to run a length of sewing thread through the springs, end to end and even tie it, for when these springs fly off into oblivion.  With the thread in place they're so much easier to find (use a light color thread).  These cars build up real nice; best of luck with them.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 8/18/2014 9:12:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   'Must have been bored today; just bought 3 American Beauty GN passenger car kits. Somewhere in the past I seem to recall others on this List saying they were good kits. I've never seen one in the flesh; so never have built one. Look to be the long, Empire Builder lightweights I think. I'm no expert on varnish equipment. So what did I get myself in to? I suspect I will be looking for trucks for them. Any recommendations? Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23039	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?

Hi Dennis in E WA state, First, the trucks: Am Beauty had their own tricks, in kit form [don't know if they also sold assembled versions], and they looked like Central Valley's streamlined passenger car trucks. which I believe came out later. I prefer the CV's to the American Beauty trucks.  The Am Beauty kits can be easily assembled in the simplest form by following the directions. The complications set in if you decide to embellish the car, say by adding the handrails, end details, underbody detail, interiors and lights, all the possibilities that model railroading has to offer. Then you have a project that can give you joy [and aggravation] for days on end. On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 9:12 PM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   'Must have been bored today; just bought 3 American Beauty GN passenger car kits. Somewhere in the past I seem to recall others on this List saying they were good kits. I've never seen one in the flesh; so never have built one. Look to be the long, Empire Builder lightweights I think. I'm no expert on varnish equipment. So what did I get myself in to? I suspect I will be looking for trucks for them. Any recommendations? Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23040	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?

Hi Dennis in E WA state, Forgot to sign! Walter B. First, the trucks: Am Beauty had their own tricks, in kit form [don't know if they also sold assembled versions], and they looked like Central Valley's streamlined passenger car trucks. which I believe came out later. I prefer the CV's to the American Beauty trucks.  The Am Beauty kits can be easily assembled in the simplest form by following the directions. The complications set in if you decide to embellish the car, say by adding the handrails, end details, underbody detail, interiors and lights, all the possibilities that model railroading has to offer. Then you have a project that can give you joy [and aggravation] for days on end. On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 9:32 AM, Walter Bayer II <bayerw2@...> wrote: Hi Dennis in E WA state, First, the trucks: Am Beauty had their own tricks, in kit form [don't know if they also sold assembled versions], and they looked like Central Valley's streamlined passenger car trucks. which I believe came out later. I prefer the CV's to the American Beauty trucks.  The Am Beauty kits can be easily assembled in the simplest form by following the directions. The complications set in if you decide to embellish the car, say by adding the handrails, end details, underbody detail, interiors and lights, all the possibilities that model railroading has to offer. Then you have a project that can give you joy [and aggravation] for days on end. On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 9:12 PM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   'Must have been bored today; just bought 3 American Beauty GN passenger car kits. Somewhere in the past I seem to recall others on this List saying they were good kits. I've never seen one in the flesh; so never have built one. Look to be the long, Empire Builder lightweights I think. I'm no expert on varnish equipment. So what did I get myself in to? I suspect I will be looking for trucks for them. Any recommendations? Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- Regards, Walter -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23041	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: American Beauty GN Empire Builder

Attachments : image-23041.jpg Hi Dennis T. and All, I agree with what Ray W. and Walter B. said about these great passenger car models, and will add my thoughts. One of the rare times where a manufacture's name, American Beauty, fit a product perfectly. I had to laugh a bit when you asked what you had gotten yourself into" with these great passenger car models because truthfully, by now you may have caught "American Beauty fever!" ______________________________________ As to building them, Ray W. Has already stated how important it was in taking care to not get glue on the painted metal or wood surfaces, and I will second that. I have skipped adding the handrails for now; I have heard that the steel sides are a bit difficult to drill and my idea was to build a jig to hold the sides or car bodies uniformly and use a small drill press, perhaps larger than my Dremell powered one. It's been a while since I checked but I think the original prototype grabs were stainless steel and I had thought of using the harder to form stainless wire, I think is or was available from Tichy. Just some thoughts. ______________________________________ I first bought an abbreviated consist of six American Beauty PRR full length car kits at my late, lamented local hobby shop when someone had left them with the owner Ray T., after he had mentioned that he knew that one of his customers was interested in vintage HO. Since then I've acquired most of the other kits in the PRR six stripe series. For vintage motive power, (If I ever paint them), an A-B-A a set of hobbytown of Boston E-6's is ready , though a pair of Penn Line GG-1's would work well too. ______________________________________ Remembering American Beauty's large ad in Model Railroader featuring the GN's "pendulum chair car" I then sent out to find an example. Less than a year later at a small local train show in Northwest New Jersey, someone was selling off 8 GN Empire Builder kits! Seven of them including the chair car, were American Beauties and the eighth a matching dome car was Blue Line. Since then it's taken me several years to find the rest in the series; one was previously assembled less than satisfactorily (B-) and I'd like to eventually upgrade that car. ______________________________________ As for motive power for my Empire Builder, again hobbytown of Boston E-6's Where my first choice and I reserved in a be set powered by the big Pittman DC 90 motors. Earlier this year, I found a pair of hobbytown body castings in "layout quality" Empire Builder paint, so scoped those up to move the project forward. They are shown in the attached photograph and need only slight touch up. And in the era of vintage fantasy motive powered, I do have one of those Penn Line Great Northern GG-1's as well…lol! ______________________________________ As previously mentioned, sometimes their trucks, very similar to Central Valley's were raided from these kits, but they are available separately on eBay. Sometimes at a bit of a price, though. I needed about a half a dozen for my PRR and Empire Builder consists and one day noticed a boxed set of American Beauty Southern Pacific Daylight shorties with boxed un-built trucks. I figured on either building up the set of Espee Daylight shorties and matching them with maybe a Bachmann engine or possibly just selling the set off, less trucks. (I believe that the plastic Athearn passenger car trucks, commonly seen, may work with the shorties.) ______________________________________ So in answer to what you have gotten yourself into, I can only echo that they one of the finest examples of 1950's HO scale smooth side passenger cars available. The American Beauty Empire Builder, with that unique "pendulum chair car" is a passenger train few will forget. I don't think that even Walthers modern Empire Builder consist released A year or two ago had that pendulum chair car. I rarely model Western Railroad prototypes, but this is one of my favorite model passenger trains, Although it is not yet complete. So enjoy your find and keep looking for more. Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23042	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: Vintage thoughts Re: [vintageHO] American Beauty GN Empire Builder

For many years I had just the bodies of the similar Blue Line C&NW '400' passenger cars. Just the shells of three of the cars, the most interesting being one of the all metal dome cars. No ends, no floors, just the metal sides and roofs. Recently I got seven of the Blue Line C&NW cars in more or less complete kits. Enough to flesh out a full train with the previously missing parts available to duplicate to finish any of the cars, the old shells or any incomplete kit in the bundle. I must have had those three lucky finds of the body shells for over 20 years before finding some kits on eBay. Thank goodness eBay exists. Similarly, for many years I have had only the stripped sides of the American Beauty pendulum car as all that I had found of them. Recently eBay came through for me and I was able to get a kit through them. So much better than just the bare metal survivor sides I had salvaged. Now I'm looking at a cheap laser cutter that will allow me to make as many of those cars as I'd like, as long as I don't mind laser-cut photo printed versions of the cars. I'm having these evil thoughts of making a train of DIY Pendulum cars. Maybe ........ Photo real Vintage model CLONES ???? It does make me think of how many models might be made from magazine/book side views of the real cars. Perhaps its the easy way to build models of vintage equipment like little modeled trolley lines? 'Photoshop' the images, prep to laser-cut, then build models. Or just duplicates of the 3d-look printed vintage Varney passenger cars, printed on clear styrene, if not laser cut after printing. I think these $600 or so laser cutters are going make accelerating changes in our hobby starting this Winter. I sort of like thoughts of making trains of Blue Line passenger cars without having to hunt down the rare kits and other survivors. Or 'building' from detailed assembly drawings of hard to get kits like the Westwood kits, the included drawings are so good that you could do that just from the discovered instruction sheets, or HOSeeker site. example..... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1537608281/lazerblade-the-affordable-laser-cutter-engraver it feels like an real cheat, but you could laser a complete train [as kits] just from the remains of a single factory painted passenger car model, your ordinary computer scanner, and 'photoshop'ing' the rest of the train car from that one car into the different cars needed. A whole new division of modeling...... Vintage HO model CLONE operations ............. ??????? Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 19, 2014, at 11:44 AM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below] > > Hi Dennis T. and All, > > I agree with what Ray W. and Walter B. said about these great passenger car models, and will add my thoughts. One of the rare times where a manufacture's name, American Beauty, fit a product perfectly. I had to laugh a bit when you asked what you had gotten yourself into" with these great passenger car models because truthfully, by now you may have caught "American Beauty fever!" > ______________________________________ > As to building them, Ray W. Has already stated how important it was in taking care to not get glue on the painted metal or wood surfaces, and I will second that. I have skipped adding the handrails for now; I have heard that the steel sides are a bit difficult to drill and my idea was to build a jig to hold the sides or car bodies uniformly and use a small drill press, perhaps larger than my Dremell powered one. > > It's been a while since I checked but I think the original prototype grabs were stainless steel and I had thought of using the harder to form stainless wire, I think is or was available from Tichy. Just some thoughts. > ______________________________________ > I first bought an abbreviated consist of six American Beauty PRR full length car kits at my late, lamented local hobby shop when someone had left them with the owner Ray T., after he had mentioned that he knew that ....................

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23043	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 8/19/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?

Walt and All: Thank you all for the most interesting information.  I won't have these in my hands for a few days, but now I'm getting excited.  I'm saving all the info that comes up so I will have a, "tip-sheet," when I get busy with them.  Continued commentary appreciated. Dennis At 06:32 AM 8/19/2014, you wrote: Hi Dennis in E WA state, First, the trucks: Am Beauty had their own tricks, in kit form [don't know if they also sold assembled versions], and they looked like Central Valley's streamlined passenger car trucks. which I believe came out later. I prefer the CV's to the American Beauty trucks. The Am Beauty kits can be easily assembled in the simplest form by following the directions. The complications set in if you decide to embellish the car, say by adding the handrails, end details, underbody detail, interiors and lights, all the possibilities that model railroading has to offer. Then you have a project that can give you joy [and aggravation] for days on end. On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 9:12 PM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] < vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   'Must have been bored today; just bought 3 American Beauty GN passenger car kits. (snip) Dennis in E WA state This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23044	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 8/20/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN Empire Builder

I have some built up American Beauty trucks if anyone is interested Jim Waterman Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23045	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/20/2014
Subject: New eBay

Attachments : $_57-54.JPG $_57-52.JPG $_57-50.JPG $_57-48.JPG I just got what was supposed to be HO from eBay and instead seems to be a rare [?] TT-scale model of an EMD passenger diesel and three coaches, all made of aluminum. They're interesting enough to keep as a showcase item. I'm impressed by them. They are well made from some sort of die-cut tooling. Can anyone recognize them ?? Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23046	From: tomvanhoy	Date: 8/20/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay

ike, Definitely TT.  Made by HP Products in Hartford City, Indiana.  This one of the earlier E type diesels  with stamped brass trucks, later a more detailed die cat truck.  The coaches are aluminum, with wooden bases, all from a simple it.  They made about 6 or so styles of coaches.  Not the rarest of TT rolling stock, but nice. Tom Van Hoy

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23047	From: Richard White	Date: 8/21/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?

I have lots of the correct springs for these trucks, if anyone need some.  -Richard White To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:12:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?   Dennis,   Next to Blue Line passenger Car kits, you've bought some great looking varnish.  Yes, they're streamlined "lightweights," using 4-wheel passenger trucks rather than 6-wheel.  These trucks should be included in the kits as they were furnished this way by the factory.  If your kits don't include them, then someone took them out either to sell separately to gain an even better profit or used them on different kits of they're own (such as Blue Line, which also produced truck kits, but which weren't furnished with their passenger car kits).   One major thing to watch for with these kits is not to get too much adhesive in the joints that join the sides with the roof & floor, as unlike most Walther's kits (except for there factory-painted "Favorites" series), you need to be careful about having to wipe off excess adhesive from the factory paint and marring it.    The trucks come as kits and so need to be put together.  If you've never built truck kits, be sure to run a length of sewing thread through the springs, end to end and even tie it, for when these springs fly off into oblivion.  With the thread in place they're so much easier to find (use a light color thread).  These cars build up real nice; best of luck with them.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 8/18/2014 9:12:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   'Must have been bored today; just bought 3 American Beauty GN passenger car kits. Somewhere in the past I seem to recall others on this List saying they were good kits. I've never seen one in the flesh; so never have built one. Look to be the long, Empire Builder lightweights I think. I'm no expert on varnish equipment. So what did I get myself in to? I suspect I will be looking for trucks for them. Any recommendations? Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23048	From: Germain Golembowski	Date: 8/21/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay [4 Attachments]

Hi Mike;   Those models are TT Scale... First developed by the HP mfg. Co. of Hartford City, Indiana in 1946.... This Company had track, a large pod of Steam Locos  and the Diesel Loco you have in your collection..   G A "Jerry" Golembowski Grandy, NC     ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 2:16 PM Subject: [vintageHO] New eBay [4 Attachments]   I just got what was supposed to be HO from eBay and instead seems to be a rare [?] TT-scale model of an EMD passenger diesel and three coaches, all made of aluminum. They're interesting enough to keep as a showcase item. I'm impressed by them. They are well made from some sort of die-cut tooling. Can anyone recognize them ?? Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23049	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 8/21/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?

I might need springs;  kits won't be here for a few days yet though....  I just hope the trucks are actually still in the kits. Dennis At 05:34 PM 8/21/2014, you wrote: I have lots of the correct springs for these trucks, if anyone need some.  -Richard White To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:12:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?   Dennis,   Next to Blue Line passenger Car kits, you've bought some great looking varnish.  Yes, they're streamlined "lightweights," using 4-wheel passenger trucks rather than 6-wheel.  These trucks should be included in the kits as they were furnished this way by the factory.  If your kits don't include them, then someone took them out either to sell separately to gain an even better profit or used them on different kits of they're own (such as Blue Line, which also produced truck kits, but which weren't furnished with their passenger car kits).   One major thing to watch for with these kits is not to get too much adhesive in the joints that join the sides with the roof & floor, as unlike most Walther's kits (except for there factory-painted "Favorites" series), you need to be careful about having to wipe off excess adhesive from the factory paint and marring it.    The trucks come as kits and so need to be put together.  If you've never built truck kits, be sure to run a length of sewing thread through the springs, end to end and even tie it, for when these springs fly off into oblivion.  With the thread in place they're so much easier to find (use a light color thread).  These cars build up real nice; best of luck with them.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 8/18/2014 9:12:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   'Must have been bored today; just bought 3 American Beauty GN passenger car kits. Somewhere in the past I seem to recall others on this List saying they were good kits. I've never seen one in the flesh; so never have built one. Look to be the long, Empire Builder lightweights I think. I'm no expert on varnish equipment. So what did I get myself in to? I suspect I will be looking for trucks for them. Any recommendations? Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23050	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?

I believe I saw the small white truck kit boxes in most, if not all, of those American Beauty kits just recently auctioned on eBay.  But as I don't know what lot(s) you won, I can't be positive that they were included in your kits.  There's a good chance they're there though.   Ray W.     In a message dated 8/22/2014 1:03:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I might need springs;  kits won't be here for a few days yet though....  I just hope the trucks are actually still in the kits. Dennis At 05:34 PM 8/21/2014, you wrote: I have lots of the correct springs for these trucks, if anyone need some.  -Richard White To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:12:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] American Beauty GN pass. car kits: what'd I get myself in to?   Dennis,   Next to Blue Line passenger Car kits, you've bought some great looking varnish.  Yes, they're streamlined "lightweights," using 4-wheel passenger trucks rather than 6-wheel.  These trucks should be included in the kits as they were furnished this way by the factory.  If your kits don't include them, then someone took them out either to sell separately to gain an even better profit or used them on different kits of they're own (such as Blue Line, which also produced truck kits, but which weren't furnished with their passenger car kits).   One major thing to watch for with these kits is not to get too much adhesive in the joints that join the sides with the roof & floor, as unlike most Walther's kits (except for there factory-painted "Favorites" series), you need to be careful about having to wipe off excess adhesive from the factory paint and marring it.    The trucks come as kits and so need to be put together.  If you've never built truck kits, be sure to run a length of sewing thread through the springs, end to end and even tie it, for when these springs fly off into oblivion.  With the thread in place they're so much easier to find (use a light color thread).  These cars build up real nice; best of luck with them.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 8/18/2014 9:12:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: 'Must have been bored today; just bought 3 American Beauty GN passenger car kits. Somewhere in the past I seem to recall others on this List saying they were good kits. I've never seen one in the flesh; so never have built one. Look to be the long, Empire Builder lightweights I think. I'm no expert on varnish equipment. So what did I get myself in to? I suspect I will be looking for trucks for them. Any recommendations? Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23051	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Carstens Publications, RIP

Hello All, Some sad news to report - I just received via the Erie Lackawanna modelers list (which include some active RMC contributors). Carstens publications closed it's doors today. There is apparently some effort to continue to publish the three magazines, including RMC. Next to my dad, Hall Carstens and RMC were the most influential in my becoming a scale modeler and helped to maintain my interest since I became a reader in the early 1960s. It was a pleasure to become an acquaintance of Hal in the late 1980s. His interest in vintage models help keep that special part of our hobby visible to the rest of the modeling world as well. I sincerely hope they can keep RMC alive in some form. It would also be nice if someone could digitize their back issues like the magazine put out by those guys in Milwaukee. I digress. Here is Henry Carstens sad letter. Jay W. > Carstens Publications > > August 22nd, 2014 > > It is with regret that Carstens Publicatons, Inc. will be closing permanently at close of business on Friday, August 22, 2014. Carstens Publications, Inc. has been a leading publisher of leading hobby magazines for over 50 years. Unfortunately the current economic climate has placed us in this position. Discussion is continuing with several parties who expressed desire to take on the continuance of the magazines. At this point there is still hope that all three titles will remain in existence. But I can offer no guarantees. We thank you for your patronage over the years, and wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. > >Henry R. Carstens, President > Carstens Publications, Inc. > > > > The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List > http://EL-List.railfan.net/ > To

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23052	From: cvmrc	Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

The end has come... The first issue I have is sometime in 1940. Lot's of great modeling featured between the covers over the years. Schopp, Moore, McClellan, Koester (obviously), Frary, Hayden, Furlow, Olson, Marshall. I think all of them were first featured in the pages of Railroad Model Craftsman. -Kevin Blair Chanute, KS "It is with regret that Carstens Publicatons, Inc. will be closing permanently at close of business on Friday, August 22, 2014. Carstens Publications, Inc. has been a leading publisher of leading hobby magazines for over 50 years. Unfortunately the current economic climate has placed us in this position. Discussion is continuing with several parties who expressed desire to take on the continuance of the magazines. At this point there is still hope that all three titles will remain in existence. But I can offer no guarantees. We thank you for your patronage over the years, and wish you the best of luck in your endeavors." --Henry R. Carstens, President Carstens Publications, Inc.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23053	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/22/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

I managed to get some 1930's issues recently and there is gold in them. I hope against being realistic that the buyers of RMC will finally produce a DVD set of the older issues. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Aug 22, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "greatamericantrains wrote: The end has come... The first issue I have is sometime in 1940. Lot's of great modeling featured between the covers over the years. Schopp, Moore, McClellan, Koester (obviously), Frary, Hayden, Furlow, Olson, Marshall. I think all of them were first featured in the pages of Railroad Model Craftsman. -Kevin Blair

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23054	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/23/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Mike,   You forgot to mention that the issues published in the 1930's were simply titled "Craftsman"  -- and covered all aspects of the modeling hobby in general, including trains, ships and probably planes -- and was not yet called "Railroad Model Craftsman," restricting itself to just trains.  A set of DVD's of these would be great.  Nice find on those 1930's issues; BTW, I'm sure they must contain some very interesting ads, too.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 8/23/2014 12:47:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I managed to get some 1930's issues recently and there is gold in them. I hope against being realistic that the buyers of RMC will finally produce a DVD set of the older issues. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Aug 22, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "greatamericantrains wrote: The end has come... The first issue I have is sometime in 1940. Lot's of great modeling featured between the covers over the years. Schopp, Moore, McClellan, Koester (obviously), Frary, Hayden, Furlow, Olson, Marshall. I think all of them were first featured in the pages of Railroad Model Craftsman. -Kevin Blair

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23055	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

> > You forgot to mention that the issues published in the 1930's were simply > titled "Craftsman" > -- and covered all aspects of the modeling hobby in general, including > trains, ships and probably planes -- and was not yet called "Railroad Model > Craftsman," restricting itself to just trains. A set of DVD's of these would > be great. Nice find on those 1930's issues; BTW, I'm sure they must > contain some very interesting ads, too. And remember the two(?) issues title Model Railroad Craftsman. Howard Garner --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23056	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Hi Howard G., I have never actually seen the issues themselves, but Hal Carstens told about them and the reason for the change to RMC in his book "150 years of Model Trains. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23057	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay

Thanks 'Jerry' and guys. Now to find a good fitting shadow box to display them with, and your emails along with some of the ads I can find for them. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 20, 2014, at 3:20 PM, 'Germain Golembowski' golembo@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Hi Mike; > > Those models are TT Scale... First developed by the HP mfg. Co. of Hartford City, Indiana in 1946.... This Company had track, a large pod of Steam Locos and the Diesel Loco you have in your collection.. > > G A "Jerry" Golembowski > Grandy, NC > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mike Bauers > > I just got what was supposed to be HO from eBay and instead seems to be a rare [?] TT-scale model of an EMD passenger diesel and three coaches, all made of aluminum. > > They're interesting enough to keep as a showcase item. > > I'm impressed by them. They are well made from some sort of die-cut tooling. > > Can anyone recognize them ?? > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23058	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay

Hi Mike B., Interesting to see, if we were scale modeling in O scale or larger, it would make an interesting amusement park train! I do have a TT Scale Lindsey/Robico /Kemtron "Tiny Tim" Docksider which I have always wanted to include as an industrial or mine yard service narrow gauge locomotive somewhere on my HO scale layout. If your layout scenery included some mountain passes, you could install some TT track and through forced perspective, it would make that section look farther away from your main HO scale truck. Otherwise it will look just fine in your display case! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23059	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: New eBay

Yup.... They look too nice to even seriously think of mod'ing them. Which is a bit of a pity. But you gave me a wild idea........... With this having the first series run of inaccurate, sketchy power truck and passenger car side frames, modeling in that style as an amusement park train ride via a 3d print or laser-cut project would be a natural. For HO drop it down to smaller and use one of the N-scale power chassis to move it along with N-scale wheel-sets would be a good fit for a mod'ed version with the rider accommodation cut-outs and access doors or openings on the passenger cars. While it would be a bit hard to fit in with the projects I'd also like to have, its a fun idea to play with. It will be a darned good project for the training I'm now doing in cad. I have to do a scanning session around Tuesday. I'll make certain to scan in the HP equipment as well. I gotta make a list of projects for Xmas break. laser-cut templates and some cutting of these would be timely then. It would fit in well with where I want to be with my CAD training and some computer software I want in operation by then. [I've got a great graphics suite I misplaced in a room I'm re-discovering. I will find it and put it into operation in the next couple of weeks. It allows me to make photo-real and user-edited car sides from image or scratch.] I could have it to a completed pre-decorated and fold project by the end of the year as certain gear and software goes into operation here. I expect to have fully excavated that treasure room by the end of this week. Then its into the half of another room that I'm sure has the tucked away scale drawings of the never built C&O Aerotrain-like turbine-powered Train-X of the early fifties in or near some nightstand drawers. Those will be fun to build! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 24, 2014, at 4:36 PM, Jay W. wrote: > > > Hi Mike B., Interesting to see, if we were scale modeling in O scale or larger, it would make an interesting amusement park train! I do have a TT Scale Lindsey/Robico /Kemtron "Tiny Tim" Docksider which I have always wanted to include as an industrial or mine yard service narrow gauge locomotive somewhere on my HO scale layout. If your layout scenery included some mountain passes, you could install some TT track and through forced perspective, it would make that section look farther away from your main HO scale truck. Otherwise it will look just fine in your display case! Jay W. >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23060	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

The mast head title of the first RMC predecessor (March 1933) read *MODEL CRAFTSMAN*, and this was unchanged for 15 years to 1948.  The masthead title of the April 1948 magazine for the first time read: *MODEL CRAFTSMAN 100% Model Railroading*, continuing for one year to 1949.   The masthead of the April 1949 magazine for the first time read:  *MODEL RAILROAD CRAFTSMAN*, continuing for an ensuing 65 years and a few months to 2014. A contretemps between Al Kalmbach and Frank Taylor (Taylor-Made models) led Frank Taylor to publish the complete directions for his new HO Milwaukee Baltic 4-6-4 kit (the first known confirmed US HO locomotive kit) in the Model Craftsman  (January 1936), despite the fact that announcements of the locomotive kit was big news in THE MODEL RAILROADER, was a close associate of Bill Walthers, and that home-town Taylor was at the very time authoring a series of articles on model locomotive construction for Kalmbach.  This story is only made more interesting by the fact that Taylor eventually became the well regarded editor of MR during WWII (in addition to the founder/owner of Globe Models).   I grew up on this magazine, and despite ups and downs over the years, including so many years dwelling (sometimes too comfortably perhaps) in the shadow of THE MODEL RAILROADER, it was always my favorite, and in past years, it was the model railroad magazine that I inevitably chose for pleasant night time reading, a choice too often made too easy in the presence of its competition.  That continued right up to yesterday. I copied the Baltic instructions from the 1936 Craftsman to make more easy the reassembly of  my own dismantled Baltic!  A long run.  RIP. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23061	From: trainliker	Date: 8/24/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

I think you missed the change from "Model Railroad Craftsman" to "Railroad Model Craftsman".   I met Hal Carstens briefly at an NMRA show (2002 or so?) in San Jose, California.  Very friendly.  Seemed a bit tired.   I have always read both RMC and MR.  It's sort of hard to describe, but RMC "felt" a little more friendly.  Or perhaps "folksy".  Or to use your word - "pleasant".  Especially in more recent years compared to the increasingly slick and commercial feeling MR.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Anspach Denny danspachmd@... [vintageHO] To: HO Vintage Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 6:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications   The mast head title of the first RMC predecessor (March 1933) read *MODEL CRAFTSMAN*, and this was unchanged for 15 years to 1948.  The masthead title of the April 1948 magazine for the first time read: *MODEL CRAFTSMAN 100% Model Railroading*, continuing for one year to 1949.   The masthead of the April 1949 magazine for the first time read:  *MODEL RAILROAD CRAFTSMAN*, continuing for an ensuing 65 years and a few months to 2014. A contretemps between Al Kalmbach and Frank Taylor (Taylor-Made models) led Frank Taylor to publish the complete directions for his new HO Milwaukee Baltic 4-6-4 kit (the first known confirmed US HO locomotive kit) in the Model Craftsman  (January 1936), despite the fact that announcements of the locomotive kit was big news in THE MODEL RAILROADER, was a close associate of Bill Walthers, and that home-town Taylor was at the very time authoring a series of articles on model locomotive construction for Kalmbach.  This story is only made more interesting by the fact that Taylor eventually became the well regarded editor of MR during WWII (in addition to the founder/owner of Globe Models).   I grew up on this magazine, and despite ups and downs over the years, including so many years dwelling (sometimes too comfortably perhaps) in the shadow of THE MODEL RAILROADER, it was always my favorite, and in past years, it was the model railroad magazine that I inevitably chose for pleasant night time reading, a choice too often made too easy in the presence of its competition.  That continued right up to yesterday. I copied the Baltic instructions from the 1936 Craftsman to make more easy the reassembly of  my own dismantled Baltic!  A long run.  RIP. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23062	From: trainguru	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

This is bad! RMC and R&R, are the best Traction resources today. Without them, the Traction Modeling community will suffer greatly.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23063	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Gentlemen, PLEASE.       How can you mourn a recently deceased dear friend when you do not know thier proper name?       The proper title is and has been  Railroad  Model  Craftsman  for as long as I can remember (1956). We have lost the last General Interest  title worth  buying in this country.  The steaming pile of stable cleanings from Wisconsin seems to view the hobby as a high-dollar shake the box world where the height of "craftsmanship" is being able to program your new DCC exploding aquarium car so it works.  And that other one is little more than the print version of TV "Info-mercials".  And don't talk to me about "on-line".  Will you be able to access an article in 5 years' time?  Not to mention the anonimity and un-reliability of the "net" in general.         Fortunatly there are a couple of  specialist  publications left which deserve our support.  It is up to us to keep the Techno-Zombies at bay.           Fred Holladay                  Luddite, Senior Grade     To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:08:10 -0700 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications   The mast head title of the first RMC predecessor (March 1933) read *MODEL CRAFTSMAN*, and this was unchanged for 15 years to 1948.  The masthead title of the April 1948 magazine for the first time read: *MODEL CRAFTSMAN 100% Model Railroading*, continuing for one year to 1949.   The masthead of the April 1949 magazine for the first time read:  *MODEL RAILROAD CRAFTSMAN*, continuing for an ensuing 65 years and a few months to 2014. A contretemps between Al Kalmbach and Frank Taylor (Taylor-Made models) led Frank Taylor to publish the complete directions for his new HO Milwaukee Baltic 4-6-4 kit (the first known confirmed US HO locomotive kit) in the Model Craftsman  (January 1936), despite the fact that announcements of the locomotive kit was big news in THE MODEL RAILROADER, was a close associate of Bill Walthers, and that home-town Taylor was at the very time authoring a series of articles on model locomotive construction for Kalmbach.  This story is only made more interesting by the fact that Taylor eventually became the well regarded editor of MR during WWII (in addition to the founder/owner of Globe Models).   I grew up on this magazine, and despite ups and downs over the years, including so many years dwelling (sometimes too comfortably perhaps) in the shadow of THE MODEL RAILROADER, it was always my favorite, and in past years, it was the model railroad magazine that I inevitably chose for pleasant night time reading, a choice too often made too easy in the presence of its competition.  That continued right up to yesterday. I copied the Baltic instructions from the 1936 Craftsman to make more easy the reassembly of  my own dismantled Baltic!  A long run.  RIP. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23064	From: thealamo	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Aug 23 2014 TERRIBLE!!!  Really terrible!! I am from the other side of the "Big Pond" (Italy) and I am (was??) a regular subscriber to Railroad Model Craftsman.  My subscription will expire with the November 2014 issue.  Last issue I have received is the July 2014 issue:  can you, please, tell me last issue published?  I suppose is the August or the September one? I have it since some 30-35 years ago.     I have all the issues bound in volumes (two per year) with Railroad Model Craftsman embossed on the spine together with my initials. I strongly hope that somebody will continue its publication... Regards (with saddeness, sorry!) Ciao Alamo Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23065	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Attachments : Hello Alamo, The last issue I have is the June 2014.  I have read on other groups sites, that they have the July and August ready to be printed.  But not the money to have them printed.  Also, I have heard they are looking for a buyer.  But that is all I have heard to date.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2014 5:17 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Last Run of Carstens Publications     Aug 23 2014 TERRIBLE!!!  Really terrible!! I am from the other side of the "Big Pond" (Italy) and I am (was??) a regular subscriber to Railroad Model Craftsman.  My subscription will expire with the November 2014 issue.  Last issue I have received is the July 2014 issue:  can you, please, tell me last issue published?  I suppose is the August or the September one? I have it since some 30-35 years ago.     I have all the issues bound in volumes (two per year) with Railroad Model Craftsman embossed on the spine together with my initials. I strongly hope that somebody will continue its publication... Regards (with saddeness, sorry!) Ciao Alamo   Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use   .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23066	From: John Hagen	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Actually, The on-line version of magazines are generally downloaded to your hard drive, along with the program necessary to run it. Now it is possible to view it as an on-line only publication but them you run the risk of, as you say, it not being there no more.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 9:12 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications          Gentlemen, PLEASE.       How can you mourn a recently deceased dear friend when you do not know thier proper name?       The proper title is and has been  Railroad  Model  Craftsman  for as long as I can remember (1956). We have lost the last General Interest  title worth  buying in this country.  The steaming pile of stable cleanings from Wisconsin seems to view the hobby as a high-dollar shake the box world where the height of "craftsmanship" is being able to program your new DCC exploding aquarium car so it works.  And that other one is little more than the print version of TV "Info-mercials".  And don't talk to me about "on-line".  Will you be able to access an article in 5 years' time?  Not to mention the anonimity and un-reliability of the "net" in general.         Fortunatly there are a couple of  specialist  publications left which deserve our support.  It is up to us to keep the Techno-Zombies at bay.           Fred Holladay                  Luddite, Senior Grade

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23067	From: rockrailsnsnow	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: FS Bowser Reference Manual/General Catalog

Attachments : bowser cat5.jpg bowser cat4.jpg bowser cat3.jpg bowser cat2.jpg bowser cat.jpg Started cleaning out extra, duplicates and unwanted items to make space for more junk... For Sale: Bowser 1977 reference manual and general catalog.  Invaluable source for parts ID and reference for Bowser, Athearn, AHM, Mantua, MDC,  Roundhouse and many more manufac.  Exploded diagrams and parts listings.  200+ pages  $15.00 shipped to Con US.   email   prrk4 *at* comcast *dot* net Cheers, Michael

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23068	From: roger_aultman	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

-- It seems their kissing up to minority groups could not save them despite the "SUPERIOR" content. Roger Aultman -- "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: ============= Actually, The on-line version of magazines are generally downloaded to your hard drive, along with the program necessary to run it. Now it is possible to view it as an on-line only publication but them you run the risk of, as you say, it not being there no more. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 9:12 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications Gentlemen, PLEASE. How can you mourn a recently deceased dear friend when you do not know thier proper name? The proper title is and has been Railroad Model Craftsman for as long as I can remember (1956). We have lost the last General Interest title worth buying in this country. The steaming pile of stable cleanings from Wisconsin seems to view the hobby as a high-dollar shake the box world where the height of "craftsmanship" is being able to program your new DCC exploding aquarium car so it works. And that other one is little more than the print version of TV "Info-mercials". And don't talk to me about "on-line". Will you be able to access an article in 5 years' time? Not to mention the anonimity and un-reliability of the "net" in general. Fortunatly there are a couple of specialist publications left which deserve our support. It is up to us to keep the Techno-Zombies at bay. Fred Holladay Luddite, Senior Grade

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23069	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Chuck Kinzer  points out- >I think you missed the change from "Model Railroad Craftsman" to "Railroad Model Craftsman". You are right.  This word sequence change in masthead title did not not take long, that is.... July 1949. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23070	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 8/25/2014
Subject: (no subject)

Gentlemen, I've just picked up  bunch of HO trains from California. There where just a couple of items I had interest in and along with those are three Athearn Hustlers. One is a silver #46, another is a red #52 and finally a gold undecorated shelled piece. The motors in all of them work. They are missing horns, couplers and bands. The shells are all excellent with the silver shell having a bit of a paint rub on one roof corner. Are these little engines collectible items? I'm a Gilbert HO collector and really have no interest in these. I'm doing a train show in November and would like to sell these. What might be a fair price to put on them? Thanks so much for any input. Dominic

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23071	From: mrrwarehouse	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

We all are mourning but the domino effect could be underway. Consider the train shop closings of past year and changes in the import scene. Few shops today carry the products of the small, domestic  niche product producers-- "kits don't sell."  We who have worked in this remaining shadow of the model  train industry have lost the only affordable advertising base that actually attracts our customers. And that loss is timed just as ad deadline time is here for the coming "train season."  If we did make it--- but couldn't high  finance Wisconsin ads-- they won't come.  Merle Rice, Model RR Warehouse

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23072	From: corlissbs	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

There is a potential buyer for RMC and R&R, so don't despair.  I took the multiple year subscription, so my subscription ends in 9 of 2015.  This is the second magazine that has done this to me.  I guess I shouldn't buy more than one year at a time!  I am sure they won't honor the subscription and this will piss off the people who lost considerable issues so that they won't subscribe.  Why pay twice for the same issue?  So from now on, when and if they get picked up, I will page thru the RMC and R&R at the hobby shop!  And I have been a subscriber for more years than I can remember-1961?   Brad Smith Franklin,WI   In a message dated 8/26/2014 9:06:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   We all are mourning but the domino effect could be underway. Consider the train shop closings of past year and changes in the import scene. Few shops today carry the products of the small, domestic  niche product producers-- "kits don't sell."  We who have worked in this remaining shadow of the model  train industry have lost the only affordable advertising base that actually attracts our customers. And that loss is timed just as ad deadline time is here for the coming "train season."  If we did make it--- but couldn't high  finance Wisconsin ads-- they won't come.  Merle Rice, Model RR Warehouse

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23073	From: Michael Greene	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: FS Bowser Reference Manual/General Catalog

Sold. Thanks! Michael Greene prrk4@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23074	From: thealamo	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Aug 25 2014 Chuck, Thank you!  I did a mistake in my posting, last issue I have received is the June issue not the July issue.  Lets hope that somebody will buy the magazine and continue to publish it soon.  What about Walthers?? I also am a regular subscriber to Model Railroader, I have it since 1956. Thank you again! Ciao! Alamo it Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23075	From: Valerie Smith	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Guys don't knee jerk reaction to this.  There is a lot going on behind the scenes that you are not aware of.  For those who wish to advertise don't forget you have Model Railroad Hobbyist out there on the net.  They are already bigger then RMC was and the advertising rates are less expensive then Craftsman.  Take a look.  Also you can get your ads in by the 1st of the month to appear in the following month.  Larry Smith On Tuesday, August 26, 2014 9:09 AM, "mrrwarehouse@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   We all are mourning but the domino effect could be underway. Consider the train shop closings of past year and changes in the import scene. Few shops today carry the products of the small, domestic  niche product producers-- "kits don't sell."  We who have worked in this remaining shadow of the model  train industry have lost the only affordable advertising base that actually attracts our customers. And that loss is timed just as ad deadline time is here for the coming "train season."  If we did make it--- but couldn't high  finance Wisconsin ads-- they won't come.  Merle Rice, Model RR Warehouse

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23076	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/26/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run of Carstens Publications

Attachments : Alamo,   Walthers is not a magazine publisher, but of course they do put out a large catalog.  I think there is a big difference between the two.  On other sites I do hear that someone is interested in buying RMC, but what that may entail is up for grabs at this point.  Sitting back and waiting to hear something in months might be the best suggestion. Take care, Chuck   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 11:38 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] The Last Run of Carstens Publications     Aug 25 2014 Chuck, Thank you!  I did a mistake in my posting, last issue I have received is the June issue not the July issue.  Lets hope that somebody will buy the magazine and continue to publish it soon.  What about Walthers?? I also am a regular subscriber to Model Railroader, I have it since 1956. Thank you again! Ciao! Alamo it Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use   .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23077	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Carstens Publications current status

Attachments : Here's the link to Carstens and what they say today.   Welcome to Carstens Publications, Inc. - Publishers of Quality Hobby Books and Magazines - Trains, Model Railroading, Model Airplanes and More               Welcome to Carstens Publications, Inc. - Publishers of Q... Welcome to Carstens Publications, home of quality books and magazines for the active hobbist. View on carstens-publication... Preview by Yahoo   __Take care, Chuck

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23078	From: corlissbs	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications current status

Like I said, after being stung for over a year's paid up subscription that I will never get, I will look at it in the hobby shop, if the magazine does come back.   Brad Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23079	From: 23weldon	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run> Where do we go from here?

Active model building model railroaders as a demographic group are decreasing in numbers every year due to age, infirmity and financial difficulties.  I don't know how we can influence the entry of new blood into the hobby.   Ideally you identify the kids with the right talent set and imprint the interest in their teen years.  The current trend back to teaching kids to make something other than an image on a screen is worth watching.  The creation of an adult multi-media "play set/escape pod" regardless of whether the subject is trains,  doll houses, battle game scenarios, motor vehicles or something else involves just about every skill we taught in the broad spectrum of now departed high school electives.  Even home economics is heavy on practical chemistry.  And History as an academic subject.  Maybe a bit more concentration on the technological progress of humanity.  It's full of interesting stuff.     But this is a long term view. Back to the present........ How do we hook the average middle class bored working slug into a new creative hobby?  We have to go deeper than simply inviting kids to train shows and layout tours. Ed Weldon   >Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:06 am (PDT) . Posted by: mrrwarehouse >We all are mourning but the domino effect could be underway ..

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23080	From: Brad Smith	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: The Last Run> Where do we go from here?

It is being done by Make Magazine. Google it and the Detroit Maker Faire. We in Milwaukee are having our first Maker Faire this year and yes, there will be trains. We have a Maker Space in Milwaukee that has a machine shop, foundry and 3d printing machines among other things for people of all ages to use. Most are young people, eager to learn and make things.  Brad Smith Sent from Brad's iPod On Aug 27, 2014, at 1:47 PM, "'23weldon' 23.weldon@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Active model building model railroaders as a demographic group are decreasing in numbers every year due to age, infirmity and financial difficulties.  I don't know how we can influence the entry of new blood into the hobby.   Ideally you identify the kids with the right talent set and imprint the interest in their teen years.  The current trend back to teaching kids to make something other than an image on a screen is worth watching.  The creation of an adult multi-media "play set/escape pod" regardless of whether the subject is trains,  doll houses, battle game scenarios, motor vehicles or something else involves just about every skill we taught in the broad spectrum of now departed high school electives.  Even home economics is heavy on practical chemistry.  And History as an academic subject.  Maybe a bit more concentration on the technological progress of humanity.  It's full of interesting stuff.     But this is a long term view. Back to the present........ How do we hook the average middle class bored working slug into a new creative hobby?  We have to go deeper than simply inviting kids to train shows and layout tours. Ed Weldon   >Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:06 am (PDT) . Posted by: mrrwarehouse >We all are mourning but the domino effect could be underway ……..

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23081	From: Doug Harris	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications current status

On 28/08/14 0:23, 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Here's the link to Carstens and what they say today. > Welcome to Carstens Publications, Inc. - Publishers of Quality Hobby Books > and Magazines - Trains, Model Railroading, Model Airplanes and More > <http://carstens-publications.com/> > <http://carstens-publications.com/> Don't forget - 'Subscribe Today' Guys.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23082	From: Brad Smith	Date: 8/27/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications current status

Take out the three year subscription and save money.  Brad Smith Sent from Brad's iPod On Aug 27, 2014, at 6:35 PM, "Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 28/08/14 0:23, 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Here's the link to Carstens and what they say today. > Welcome to Carstens Publications, Inc. - Publishers of Quality Hobby Books > and Magazines - Trains, Model Railroading, Model Airplanes and More > <http://carstens-publications.com/> > <http://carstens-publications.com/> Don't forget - 'Subscribe Today' Guys.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23083	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Old brass on eBay

Guys, Look at this eBay item that could top $200 today. Item Number: 171429903238 I swear it's a home build of a two page construction article with templates, titled something like ' Build The Mighty-Mo' from the 50's MR. I've got a copy of it downstairs and can be specific later. Makes me think wild thought like what if I built a few of them and slowly filtered them through eBay... Or what if someone built stuff from the old articles, making a couple more than he wanted to keep and sold the others..... It wouldn't have to be the brass projects, all sorts of interesting model projects like snow plows that just weren't made as commercial models or old trolleys from those old articles would be both fun to build and not otherwise available. People may not build them themselves, but they do seem to want to buy them. Just a thought.... So if you ever pondered a project like one of the Mel Thornburgh 1850's 4-4-0 or perhaps his 1850 Hayes Camel 4-6-0, or a Paul Moore article vintage trolley; as a couple of examples. The articles are so well detailed that you could build them and while you're at it make the parts for 2-3 extra ones as you make 5-6 of them and see if you can sell the extras to buyers of classic models. Now that laser cutters are dropping below $600, it will be much easier to build from those vintage articles. Those that were printed with construction templates are the easiest to convert into cut patterns, even those that include photo-etch patterns can be laser or craft cut instead. With the laser it's cut and engrave just as with a photo-etch. Maybe, just maybe there is a real market for built-up construction projects.  You could wind up being paid for something you wanted for yourself while making some extras.... It's got me thinking..... Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23084	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay

Mike, This is a kitbash with the chassis of this locomotive being derived from a Varney Lil Joe 0-4-0 steam locomotive. I do not know the article you peak of, but I can not imagine the article having been titled anything different than Minnetonka as the locomotive model is representative of an actual steam locomotive used on the Northern Pacific RR.  I do have an early Tenshodo all brass hand made version. My model was verified by the editor of the Brown Book on Brass, Kanichi Matusmoto, as being an actual pre-production Tenshodo model and was hand made prior to 1952.  Please see the photo album I have dedicated to the hand made model I have. https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157636384717463/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   The photo set has some actual real life locomotive pics and a scan from the Tenshodo catalog of the production model.  Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 1:55 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Old brass on eBay   Guys, Look at this eBay item that could top $200 today. Item Number: 171429903238 I swear it's a home build of a two page construction article with templates, titled something like ' Build The Mighty-Mo' from the 50's MR. I've got a copy of it downstairs and can be specific later. Makes me think wild thought like what if I built a few of them and slowly filtered them through eBay... Or what if someone built stuff from the old articles, making a couple more than he wanted to keep and sold the others..... It wouldn't have to be the brass projects, all sorts of interesting model projects like snow plows that just weren't made as commercial models or old trolleys from those old articles would be both fun to build and not otherwise available. People may not build them themselves, but they do seem to want to buy them. Just a thought.... So if you ever pondered a project like one of the Mel Thornburgh 1850's 4-4-0 or perhaps his 1850 Hayes Camel 4-6-0, or a Paul Moore article vintage trolley; as a couple of examples. The articles are so well detailed that you could build them and while you're at it make the parts for 2-3 extra ones as you make 5-6 of them and see if you can sell the extras to buyers of classic models. Now that laser cutters are dropping below $600, it will be much easier to build from those vintage articles. Those that were printed with construction templates are the easiest to convert into cut patterns, even those that include photo-etch patterns can be laser or craft cut instead. With the laser it's cut and engrave just as with a photo-etch. Maybe, just maybe there is a real market for built-up construction projects.  You could wind up being paid for something you wanted for yourself while making some extras.... It's got me thinking..... Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23085	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay

Thanks Sean, I now have the article in front of me and it is based on the Minnetonka as quoted in the article, even pictured in it. The article calls for the use of a Mantua Roadhouse Goat mechanism. If built to the article, thats whats in this model. The article says its a third longer than the prototype. In the article the smokebox and stacks are made from round bar stock. Its from Jan-49, MR page 30-31, Erecting Mighty Moe, by John Resch I'll attach a screen grab of the bare model, and one of the shots from the auction. I do think that this model is an article-built personal model. No doubt, it's a nice looking model of a rare prototype. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 28, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Sean Naylor a69mustang4me@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Mike, This is a kitbash with the chassis of this locomotive being derived from a Varney Lil Joe 0-4-0 steam locomotive. I do not know the article you peak of, but I can not imagine the article having been titled anything different than Minnetonka as the locomotive model is representative of an actual steam locomotive used on the Northern Pacific RR.  I do have an early Tenshodo all brass hand made version. My model was verified by the editor of the Brown Book on Brass, Kanichi Matusmoto, as being an actual pre-production Tenshodo model and was hand made prior to 1952.  Please see the photo album I have dedicated to the hand made model I have. https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157636384717463/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23086	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay [2 Attachments]

Well that's just awesome Mike! And you are correct, it must have been inspired by the article. The one for sale is definitely made using a Varney chassis however. So the builder took some liberties. It would be nice to see what the rest of the body is made of. I wouldn't mind finding a copy of that article.   Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Old brass on eBay [2 Attachments]   [Attachment(s) from Mike Bauers included below] Thanks Sean, I now have the article in front of me and it is based on the Minnetonka as quoted in the article, even pictured in it. The article calls for the use of a Mantua Roadhouse Goat mechanism. If built to the article, thats whats in this model. The article says its a third longer than the prototype. In the article the smokebox and stacks are made from round bar stock. Its from Jan-49, MR page 30-31, Erecting Mighty Moe, by John Resch I'll attach a screen grab of the bare model, and one of the shots from the auction. I do think that this model is an article-built personal model. No doubt, it's a nice looking model of a rare prototype. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 28, 2014, at 2:03 PM, Sean Naylor a69mustang4me@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Mike, This is a kitbash with the chassis of this locomotive being derived from a Varney Lil Joe 0-4-0 steam locomotive. I do not know the article you peak of, but I can not imagine the article having been titled anything different than Minnetonka as the locomotive model is representative of an actual steam locomotive used on the Northern Pacific RR.  I do have an early Tenshodo all brass hand made version. My model was verified by the editor of the Brown Book on Brass, Kanichi Matusmoto, as being an actual pre-production Tenshodo model and was hand made prior to 1952.  Please see the photo album I have dedicated to the hand made model I have. https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157636384717463/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23087	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/28/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay [2 Attachments]

Heres a screen grab for you. I'm sorry it doesn't get better from the MR archive since its scanned by them in a mediocre resolution. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 28, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Sean Naylor a69mustang4me@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below]  Well that's just awesome Mike! And you are correct, it must have been inspired by the article. The one for sale is definitely made using a Varney chassis however. So the builder took some liberties. It would be nice to see what the rest of the body is made of.  I wouldn't mind finding a copy of that article.    Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23088	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay [2 Attachments]

Mike B., That's one cool little locomotive and showing good workmanship: nice it is finding its way into another appreciative owners roster via eBay. There will probably be some demand for limited production of unique models like this, made in the manner that you suggest. That's also a market being catered to buy the 3-D printers and there are still small conventional firms like Wise Model Services who furnish unique items of limited, but certain demand. Probably best to line-up committed clients for a model first, though. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23089	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/29/2014
Subject: Re: Old brass on eBay

Once you get into 3d print creation, even if through services like Shapeways and no machine of your own; you can make the parts you need, that are not available elsewhere, and leave available for purchase by others. You get a royalty for others buying your designed part and you should end up by getting your parts for free in the balance, as well as getting them much faster than trying to have someone else commercially produce them after they run the numbers to see if it's worthwhile to produce the parts. I like the old gatherings of a couple or a few of modelers of similar focus where each uses his individual talents to help out the others. In this case, it would be a fellow modeler that is up to speed with 3d cad and has similar interests. He could do the designing for a simple bargain of the small group ordering the parts they need and the designer getting so many free parts in exchange for his CAD work, or one of the group has one of the recent low cost laser cutters and he makes sets of parts in exchange. Or something similar. Bottom line is that the modelers group up and solve as many of the critical supply problems of unavailable parts among themselves. Think of all the modelers we have known over the years that have been waiting for this or that model to be produced over years and decades of delay. Instead a few could group together to solve their mutual problems. Actually 'we' used to do that much more than we do now. I've seen some great mutual projects and volumes of results come out from many years of such groups in action. I miss seeing that. I wish I was in such a group............ Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Aug 29, 2014, at 11:08 AM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike B., That's one cool little locomotive and showing good workmanship: nice it is finding its way into another appreciative owners roster via eBay. There will probably be some demand for limited production of unique models like this, made in the manner that you suggest. That's also a market being catered to buy the 3-D printers and there are still small conventional firms like Wise Model Services who furnish unique items of limited, but certain demand. Probably best to line-up committed clients for a model first, though. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23090	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

It's been announced that Whit River Productions has acquired Railroad Model Craftsman and Railfan & Railroad magazines.  There should be more coming on this subject by others as they too receive more data, but for now it looks like these publications have been saved.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23091	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

As oddball as this statement may seem to be from me. It's things like this that remind me that when all is said and done; there really is a God who nudges disastrous events of here and there into positive outcomes. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Aug 30, 2014, at 11:48 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: It's been announced that Whit River Productions has acquired Railroad Model Craftsman and Railfan & Railroad magazines.  There should be more coming on this subject by others as they too receive more data, but for now it looks like these publications have been saved.   Ray Wetzel _

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23092	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

Mike,   In going over the news message I posted a short while ago, I just noticed that I omitted a letter in this new publisher's name.  I don't know how I made that typo but it should be White (not Whit) River Productions.  I'm sure we'll here more about this buy out fairly soon.  You may even be on some of the other groups that are discussing it.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 8/30/2014 2:06:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   As oddball as this statement may seem to be from me. It's things like this that remind me that when all is said and done; there really is a God who nudges disastrous events of here and there into positive outcomes. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Aug 30, 2014, at 11:48 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: It's been announced that Whit River Productions has acquired Railroad Model Craftsman and Railfan & Railroad magazines.  There should be more coming on this subject by others as they too receive more data, but for now it looks like these publications have been saved.   Ray Wetzel .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23093	From: the_plainsman	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

Hi all, as a follow-up to Ray W.'s post regarding the announcement that White River Productions is taking over publishing RMC and Railfan & Railroad magazines, I checked their website and it tells more of the story. They will be honoring current subscriptions for the number of issues owed. It's time for me to renew as my subscription had recently ended. Here is their homepage web address. W. Jay W. www.whiteriverproductions.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23094	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

This outfit is well versed in model and prototype railroad-related publications as they also put out Passenger Train Journal, Railroads Illustrated and Model Railroad News.  According to their website, which W. Jay. W. has been kind enough to advise us of, The Railroad Press will also be joining them.  While I knew that at least several historical Society publications were printed by them, including Flags, Diamonds & Statues (Anthracite Society) and The Diamond (ERIE, DL&W and E-L Society), what I didn't know was that they also produce another 18 society publications including The Milwaukee Railroader, Conrail Quarterly and The Rocket (CRI&P) -- and also publish the NMRA and NHRS bulletins.  They print railroad books too, so they're no strangers to our interests.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 8/30/2014 5:54:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi all, as a follow-up to Ray W.'s post regarding the announcement that White River Productions is taking over publishing RMC and Railfan Railroad magazines, I checked their website and it tells more of the story. They will be honoring current subscriptions for the number of issues owed. It's time for me to renew as my subscription had recently ended. Here is their homepage web address. W. Jay W. www.whiteriverproductions.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23095	From: Rick Jones	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

On 8/30/2014 8:03 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > This outfit is well versed in model and prototype railroad-related > publications as they also put out Passenger Train Journal, Railroads > Illustrated and Model Railroad News. According to their website, which > W. Jay. W. has been kind enough to advise us of, The Railroad Press will > also be joining them. While I knew that at least several historical > Society publications were printed by them, including Flags, Diamonds & > Statues (Anthracite Society) and The Diamond (ERIE, DL&W and E-L > Society), what I didn't know was that they also produce another 18 > society publications including The Milwaukee Railroader, Conrail > Quarterly and The Rocket (CRI&P) -- and also publish the NMRA and NHRS > bulletins. They print railroad books too, so they're no strangers to our > interests. They've been doing a relatively decent job with the NMRA Magazine since they took it over several years ago. My only significant complaint is the number of typos, punctuation and grammatical errors that creep through because of an apparent lack of proofreading. If you can get past that it's well done. -- Rick Jones You will never find anybody who can give you a clear and compelling reason why we observe Daylight Savings Time.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23096	From: Doug Harris	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

On 31/08/14 13:03, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > This outfit is well versed in model and prototype railroad-related > publications as they also put out Passenger Train Journal, Railroads Illustrated > and Model Railroad News. According to their website, which W. Jay. W. has > been kind enough to advise us of, The Railroad Press will also be joining > them. Can we have some critiques of these publications, please?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23097	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: O/T NRHS Bulletin, was Carstens Publications

Rick,   The latest full-color NRHS magazines are nicely done, but in my estimation this type of magazine does not fit in with the purposes of this organization.  After all, it's a historical society, not a current events RR group.  I much preferred the previous smaller-format (w/B&W photos) Bulletins -- many of which contained nothing but pertinent and engaging railroad history on all the railroads we're interested in, going back to their heydays.  It's too bad they haven't stayed with that concept, especially when considering the huge jump in the National's dues last year -- and another one to come.  For my money, I could do without this magazine especially as it would not be my choice.  My funds would be better served by subscribing to either a modeling or prototype magazine of my choice instead of having this rammed down my throat when it doesn't conform to the NRHS's (historical) intents as originally conceived.  But as I'm sure you know, you can't belong to a local NRHS Chapter without belonging to the National administration.  End of off-topic note.   Ray Wetzel         In a message dated 8/30/2014 10:58:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 8/30/2014 8:03 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > This outfit is well versed in model and prototype railroad-related > publications as they also put out Passenger Train Journal, Railroads > Illustrated and Model Railroad News. According to their website, which > W. Jay. W. has been kind enough to advise us of, The Railroad Press will > also be joining them. While I knew that at least several historical > Society publications were printed by them, including Flags, Diamonds & > Statues (Anthracite Society) and The Diamond (ERIE, DL&W and E-L > Society), what I didn't know was that they also produce another 18 > society publications including The Milwaukee Railroader, Conrail > Quarterly and The Rocket (CRI&P) -- and also publish the NMRA and NHRS > bulletins. They print railroad books too, so they're no strangers to our > interests. They've been doing a relatively decent job with the NMRA Magazine since they took it over several years ago. My only significant complaint is the number of typos, punctuation and grammatical errors that creep through because of an apparent lack of proofreading. If you can get past that it's well done. -- Rick Jones You will never find anybody who can give you a clear and compelling reason why we observe Daylight Savings Time.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23098	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: O/T Magazine Critiques, was Carstens Publications

Doug,   While the recent concerns about Carstens' RMC were well within the realm of this group's interests, I'm not sure if continuing the discussions on other -- even/especially  non-modeling -- magazines would be on topic here.  As a matter of possible interest to others like yourself, and as other publications that this latest RMC publisher also prints, I can add that both Passenger Journal and The Railroad Press are nothing but top-notch superior publications in what they cover -- bar none!  As I'm not that familiar with the other two magazines you mentioned, I'm unable to comment on them to a great degree except to say that I've read Model Railroad News a number of times and did enjoy it.  I haven't subscribed to it though (I prefer RMC).    Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 8/30/2014 11:47:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 31/08/14 13:03, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > This outfit is well versed in model and prototype railroad-related > publications as they also put out Passenger Train Journal, Railroads Illustrated > and Model Railroad News. According to their website, which W. Jay. W. has > been kind enough to advise us of, The Railroad Press will also be joining > them. Can we have some critiques of these publications, please?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23099	From: Doug Harris	Date: 8/30/2014
Subject: Re: O/T Magazine Critiques, was Carstens Publications

On 31/08/14 16:25, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doug, > > While the recent concerns about Carstens' RMC were well within the realm of > this group's interests, I'm not sure if continuing the discussions on > other -- even/especially non-modeling -- magazines would be on topic here. As > a matter of possible interest to others like yourself, and as other > publications that this latest RMC publisher also prints, I can add that both > Passenger Journal and The Railroad Press are nothing but top-notch superior > publications in what they cover -- bar none! As I'm not that familiar with > the other two magazines you mentioned, I'm unable to comment on them to a > great degree except to say that I've read Model Railroad News a number of > times and did enjoy it. I haven't subscribed to it though (I prefer RMC). > > Ray Wetzel Thanks, Ray.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23100	From: thealamo	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

Aug 30 2014 Go to: https://www.whiteriverproductions.com/ They did purchase it and it is  already on their homepage. Ciao and remember "Military Model Railroading is More Fun!!" Alamo On 30 August 2014 18:48, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   It's been announced that White River Productions has acquired Railroad Model Craftsman and Railfan & Railroad magazines.  There should be more coming on this subject by others as they too receive more data, but for now it looks like these publications have been saved.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23101	From: roblmclear	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

Doug and others I get the model Railroad News magazine regularly from my local hobby shop and it is excellent.   It is very much concerned with reviewing model products, including magazines and books and does all scales.   The reviews are, in my opinion, honest and if something is wrong they tell you so.   They point out the faults or benefits and let you decide for yourself whether or not the model or book is worth the purchase price. They don't seem to be cowed by the advertising or the worry that if they give a bad review they will be punished.   It seems to me to be fair and unbiased and I have both purchased and avoided products on their recommendations.   In all cases I have been glad that I did. Rob McLear Aussie.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23102	From: Denis Long	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

An encouraging sentiment, Mr M B. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23103	From: Denis Long	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: O/T Magazine Critiques, was Carstens Publications

Hello Doug, I have been a subscriber to Mod Rr News since it was in newspaper format. This is not a modeler magazine in the genre of RMC/MR.  It is as it says a model news mag. It provides announcements of the latest releases from manufacturers of all scales. Some articles are just notices of new releases, while others are multi-page discussions of the models properties. It starts with data of the prototype, then moves to the model.  I have learned info concerning the models earlier iterations, improvements, shortcomings, decoder choices, CV changes, take apart hints, and also a by-the-numbers performance rating.  I have found out many things of interest, pertinent gems, about a model, I wouldn’t know otherwise. Kevin EuDaly,of W.R.P,  is also the author of Missouri Pacific Diesel Power. W.R.P. also publishes The Rocket, for the now, nearly moribund Rock Island HS. IMO all of these are well done. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23104	From: Denis Long	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: O/T Magazine Critiques, was Carstens Publications

Ray, It’s unfortunate that you are ‘having this rammed down my throat’. I have experienced this with Region 6 of the NMRA.  So, in order to get Reg 6’s publication, I just donate to them. Of course, this precludes whatever membership benefits that would accrue. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23105	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Attachments : image-23105.jpg Hello All, Although I never have actively modeled the New York Central, there was always a bit of interest in it, stemming mostly from my fathers "connection." Circa 1940, dad designed and constructed the NYC observation car end office for the Model Railway Equipment Corporation's hobby shop situated on Manhattan's W. 45th St. (Later known as Ma Webster's). ______________________________________ When it came time to paint it, I imagine as some sort of business publicity stunt, it was arranged for dad to take a locomotive cab ride from Grand Central terminal to get a gallon of official NYC paint at, I believe Mott Haven. About 25 years later, dad took me into Grand Central, when the passenger platforms were open to the public, to show me the type locomotive, a "T – class" electric that took his cab ride in. ______________________________________ He told me he was particularly fascinated with the articulated action, the platform "leading " the locomotive superstructure through the curves and switches. Since the locomotive he showed me was parked immediately to the adjacent platform and both locomotive and terminal platform were at nearly the same height, I remember wanting to step aboard! Later, I found an excellent drawing of it, actually I believe a similar T-3a, in the 1942 edition of the Model Railroader Cyclopedia which dad had in his bookcase. ______________________________________ Less than a year ago, I spotted an older, completely disassembled (for painting) New York Central T-1 on eBay, and was pleased to get it for much less than the deeply discounted cost of a current Atlas locomotive without DCC or sound. When it arrived, I was pleased to see that each separate part was wrapped in both paper toweling and aluminum foil, to ensure nothing would be lost. And except for three metric screws and one shim, it was all there! ______________________________________ Unfortunately, the almost flawless black paint was just that, the blackest loco black without a bit of lightener to make it a bit more realistic and the detail visible – but oh well! It had an old-style "square" open frame motor and it took a while for me to identify and confirm the importer, which was Model Engineering Works, owned by Dick Wheeler. (I had miss-placed my Brown Book and Lenihan's - both now found.) The model dates from 1961 or '62, (A second run?) based upon reviews in both of the model magazines. ______________________________________ That this model was imported by Dick Wheeler turned out to be another fun connection, as decades earlier he and my dad were once acquainted: both were members of NYSME in the 1940s when it was still located in Manhattan. Sometime during that period, Wheeler was either living in, or moved to Niagara Falls before eventually relocating to California. ______________________________________ After seeing one of these MEW T-1 locomotives at the recent "Greenberg type" train show at Edison, the first of which I had been to in about a half a decade, I was inspired to reassemble the parts that evening. A bit of a Japanese jigsaw puzzle, it still needs some adjustment to track well, maybe another hour or two of work! I also have to locate decals suitable for the early 1940's when my dad took his short trip. Reversing headlights would be a nice addition, too! W. Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23106	From: Doug Harris	Date: 8/31/2014
Subject: Re: Carstens Publications

On 31/08/14 17:24, roblmclear@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doug and others > > I get the model Railroad News magazine regularly from my local hobby shop and it is excellent. It is very much concerned with reviewing model products, including magazines and books and does all scales. The reviews are, in my opinion, honest and if something is wrong they tell you so. They point out the faults or benefits and let you decide for yourself whether or not the model or book is worth the purchase price. > > > They don't seem to be cowed by the advertising or the worry that if they give a bad review they will be punished. It seems to me to be fair and unbiased and I have both purchased and avoided products on their recommendations. In all cases I have been glad that I did. > > > Rob McLear > Aussie. Thanks Rob. A frank comment.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23107	From: Denis Long	Date: 9/1/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Good luck with finalizing the loco, Jay. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23110	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/1/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco [1 Attachment]

Hello Jay,   Model Engineering Works offered some real nice models, some in cast metal and some in brass such as your model, and more reasonable than many other brass models.  One of theirs I have is a Cleveland Union Terminal P1a, which New York Central later bought from CUT (in 1936) and designated them as P2 a or P2b, depending on the motor's number.  My body's in gray prime right now but I'll be painting it in the NYC Lightening Stripe scheme that was applied after GE rebuilt them in 1955.  Just thought I'd pull it out and look at it since you posted about your model and it brought back interest.  Also have an MEW NYC T-1, built for the Central in 1913, but I can't put my finger on it at the moment.  As I recall, that's already in the Lightening Stripe scheme, but I haven't looked at it in a while so I'm not completely sure.  That's really interesting that your dad knew Dick Wheeler, MEW's owner.  The NYSME still holds some great shows every year.  Not that far from me either as it's only about 10 miles down NJ Route 17 from where I am.  It's always well worth going to.     Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 8/31/2014 3:35:37 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello All, Although I never have actively modeled the New York Central, there was always a bit of interest in it, stemming mostly from my fathers "connection." Circa 1940, dad designed and constructed the NYC observation car end office for the Model Railway Equipment Corporation's hobby shop situated on Manhattan's W. 45th St. (Later known as Ma Webster's). ______________________________________ When it came time to paint it, I imagine as some sort of business publicity stunt, it was arranged for dad to take a locomotive cab ride from Grand Central terminal to get a gallon of official NYC paint at, I believe Mott Haven. About 25 years later, dad took me into Grand Central, when the passenger platforms were open to the public, to show me the type locomotive, a "T – class" electric that took his cab ride in. ______________________________________ He told me he was particularly fascinated with the articulated action, the platform "leading " the locomotive superstructure through the curves and switches. Since the locomotive he showed me was parked immediately to the adjacent platform and both locomotive and terminal platform were at nearly the same height, I remember wanting to step aboard! Later, I found an excellent drawing of it, actually I believe a similar T-3a, in the 1942 edition of the Model Railroader Cyclopedia which dad had in his bookcase. ______________________________________ Less than a year ago, I spotted an older, completely disassembled (for painting) New York Central T-1 on eBay, and was pleased to get it for much less than the deeply discounted cost of a current Atlas locomotive without DCC or sound. When it arrived, I was pleased to see that each separate part was wrapped in both paper toweling and aluminum foil, to ensure nothing would be lost. And except for three metric screws and one shim, it was all there! ______________________________________ Unfortunately, the almost flawless black paint was just that, the blackest loco black without a bit of lightener to make it a bit more realistic and the detail visible – but oh well! It had an old-style "square" open frame motor and it took a while for me to identify and confirm the importer, which was Model Engineering Works, owned by Dick Wheeler. (I had miss-placed my Brown Book and Lenihan's - both now found.) The model dates from 1961 or '62, (A second run?) based upon reviews in both of the model magazines. ______________________________________ That this model was imported by Dick Wheeler turned out to be another fun connection, as decades earlier he and my dad were once acquainted: both were members of NYSME in the 1940s when it was still located in Manhattan. Sometime during that period, Wheeler was either living in, or moved to Niagara Falls before eventually relocating to California. ______________________________________ After seeing one of these MEW T-1 locomotives at the recent "Greenberg type" train show at Edison, the first of which I had been to in about a half a decade, I was inspired to reassemble the parts that evening. A bit of a Japanese jigsaw puzzle, it still needs some adjustment to track well, maybe another hour or two of work! I also have to locate decals suitable for the early 1940's when my dad took his short trip. Reversing headlights would be a nice addition, too! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23111	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/2/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Short story if you find it interesting: , My dad and I attended a regional NMRA meet in Binghamton, NY in 1971.   He was an avid collector of electric type locomotives and did not have the MEW Cinn. Union Terminal loco.   There was an auction and one of these came up, bidding started at $1, and was working it’s way towards $5.   My dad (who had a rather large voice), called out $50.   The place went dead and the auction closed with him as the winner.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23112	From: Denis Long	Date: 9/3/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Hey Jim, Sunset Models has marketed an HO version of the CUT Electric, last year.   http://www.3rdrail.com/ho_scale.htm#CUT Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23113	From: oklacnw	Date: 9/4/2014
Subject: Re: RMC, et al

White River also publishes the CNWHS mag and does an excellent job of it. Also, remember, they print what the various organizations send to them & with word processors mistakes are bound to be made since no proof readers exist today. -- Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23114	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/5/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Hi Jim W., At least that seller must of been happy when he heard your father's bid! In the mid 60s when I was a teen, my father took me to a Metropolitan Council of Model Railroad Clubs' meet/show at a church basement in Parsippany, New Jersey. Your dad was there showing his Trackside Specialties PRR box cab locomotive models and I remember being fascinated with them and decades later started looking for them on eBay. I am still looking for the O1a. Interestingly on the program was a young Al Westerfield demonstrating how to mold small parts, not in resin but in in lead-based white metal. Ironically, almost 40 years later, I am active with two HO scale Yahoo! Groups, this one where you are also active and the New York City Mass Transit Modelers, which includes Al Westerfield along with Jan Lorentzen, whose father worked with your dad to produce those PRR box cab locomotive models almost 40 years ago! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23115	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/5/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco [1 Attachment]

Hi Ray W., I agree those NYSME shows are still fun to go to. My dad and I began visiting in the mid-1960s, so have seen lots of changes and improvements over the years. Those P2 locomotives are also great looking models, and the New York Central lightning stripe scheme looked good on them. I seem to remember there was another vintage manufacturer who reportedly made some. Without checking I believe the name was "Denise" and they were located on the Eastside in Manhattan. I'm not sure if anybody has ever seen the model, though. I believe Jim Heckard had searched for a long time. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23116	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Hi Jay,   Just thought I'd mention that the NYSME (New York Society of Model Engineers) have ironically now been located in New Jersey for many more years than they were ever in New York (City).  After making a circuit of about four places in Manhattan starting in 1926, they moved to the DL&W's Hoboken Terminal after WW II.  In 1958, they had to move again, to their present and permanent building on Paterson Plank Road in Carlstadt -- a couple of blocks off of NJ Route 17.  I'm sure you know even much more about them, but I thought I'd throw this in here for the members who aren't that familiar with this club.  They now own that building so there's no more moving needed from now on.   Some members may not know that they have two separate layouts, a 17 scale mile 0 scale layout and a 5.5 scale mile H0 scale layout.  I first started visiting them in the mid 70's; should have gone there sooner.  I try to get down there every year or so maybe skipping a year in between at times.  Besides having a couple of open house weekends around Christmas, I believe they still have it open to the public sometime in the Spring each year.  I remember going to a couple of their weekly Friday night (used to be Wednesday) work sessions to see what went on those night and to inquire about joining.  After the 3rd or 4th work session I looked in on, I decided against joining only because it became obvious that they never quit working on changing the layout and its scenery.   Now I don't mind working on scenery -- it's all part of model railroading and building a layout -- but I wouldn't want to do that consistently, to the exclusion of operating.  Except for the open house days/shows though, I never saw a work session night where trains were operated, so I decided to opt out of joining.    The layouts seem to be in a constant flux of change as just about every year it's open to the public, these layouts are different.  Could be that they just want to present a somewhat different layout to the public each year so as not to tire them of the same thing.   I remember one year they had put in an operating H0 scale hump yard, only to be extremely disappointed to find that it was removed by the following year's shows.  I don't think they realize that there are some things that the public looks for year after year, just like they look for the elephants in the circus.  While these changes usually aren't too drastic from year to year even if sometimes substantial, they've made at least three major changes that I know of, including a complete tear-down in the mid-80's.  They do some excellent work however, and they sure put on an excellent show around the Holidays.  The H0 scale layout is loosely modeled after the Erie RR's New York Division -- Jersey City, NJ to Port Jervis, NY.        I seem to recall a "Denise" H0 manufacturing company, or at least a company very similar to that name.  For some reason, I'm connecting them with the manufacture of domestic (not Japan imports) brass F-Units, although their history is far too foggy for me now to know much about them for certain so I could be very wrong.     Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 9/5/2014 10:53:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., I agree those NYSME shows are still fun to go to. My dad and I began visiting in the mid-1960s, so have seen lots of changes and improvements over the years. Those P2 locomotives are also great looking models, and the New York Central lightning stripe scheme looked good on them. I seem to remember there was another vintage manufacturer who reportedly made some. Without checking I believe the name was "Denise" and they were located on the Eastside in Manhattan. I'm not sure if anybody has ever seen the model, though. I believe Jim Heckard had searched for a long time. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23117	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Hey Jay W   Thanks for the note. Glad to see that the younger Jan Lorensen is still active in the hobby. I can remember Jan and his brother as little kids when we went to the 1968 San Francisco NMRA National as a family – those kids had a lot of energy.   And of course we knew Jan Lorensen for life, he was a very prolific and creative force in model railroading and is greatly missed.   I too do not have an O-1 but picked up a later P5 kit last year, to have one of Dad’s creations. Would probably grab a B-1 too if it came up. He had had one left that went unsold for a few years. We carried it to many meets before someone picked it up. Wish I had bought it.   Jim Heckard has a very nice O-1 that I believe to be my father’s personal model that was built to show it off for sales, and the one he kept until he got the O scale flu and sold off all of his HO stuff.  (Early to mid 1980’s). THere was an HC-1 in that group when the collection sold as well. What a strange beast. Jan Lorensen built up the brass boilers for those guys.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23118	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Hi Ray W., That was a good description of the NYSME.  I also missed seeing the operating hump yard when I discovered it was removed.  I believe they were able to retard the speed of descent with puffs of directed compressed air, and it was quite impressive in operation. Their layouts are still worth a visit and they have an interesting website. For those of you outside of the NY Metropolitan area, their website contains history, photos and videos.  I believe they had a pioneering HO scale layout when the moved to Hoboken after WW2, but no photos of that here:  http://modelengineers.org/railroads.html  W. Jay W.   On Saturday, September 6, 2014 7:18 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hi Jay,   Just thought I'd mention that the NYSME (New York Society of Model Engineers) have ironically now been located in New Jersey for many more years than they were ever in New York (City).  After making a circuit of about four places in Manhattan starting in 1926, they moved to the DL&W's Hoboken Terminal after WW II.  In 1958, they had to move again, to their present and permanent building on Paterson Plank Road in Carlstadt -- a couple of blocks off of NJ Route 17.  I'm sure you know even much more about them, but I thought I'd throw this in here for the members who aren't that familiar with this club.  They now own that building so there's no more moving needed from now on.   Some members may not know that they have two separate layouts, a 17 scale mile 0 scale layout and a 5.5 scale mile H0 scale layout.  I first started visiting them in the mid 70's; should have gone there sooner.  I try to get down there every year or so maybe skipping a year in between at times.  Besides having a couple of open house weekends around Christmas, I believe they still have it open to the public sometime in the Spring each year.  I remember going to a couple of their weekly Friday night (used to be Wednesday) work sessions to see what went on those night and to inquire about joining.  After the 3rd or 4th work session I looked in on, I decided against joining only because it became obvious that they never quit working on changing the layout and its scenery.   Now I don't mind working on scenery -- it's all part of model railroading and building a layout -- but I wouldn't want to do that consistently, to the exclusion of operating.  Except for the open house days/shows though, I never saw a work session night where trains were operated, so I decided to opt out of joining.    The layouts seem to be in a constant flux of change as just about every year it's open to the public, these layouts are different.  Could be that they just want to present a somewhat different layout to the public each year so as not to tire them of the same thing.   I remember one year they had put in an operating H0 scale hump yard, only to be extremely disappointed to find that it was removed by the following year's shows.  I don't think they realize that there are some things that the public looks for year after year, just like they look for the elephants in the circus.  While these changes usually aren't too drastic from year to year even if sometimes substantial, they've made at least three major changes that I know of, including a complete tear-down in the mid-80's.  They do some excellent work however, and they sure put on an excellent show around the Holidays.  The H0 scale layout is loosely modeled after the Erie RR's New York Division -- Jersey City, NJ to Port Jervis, NY.        I seem to recall a "Denise" H0 manufacturing company, or at least a company very similar to that name.  For some reason, I'm connecting them with the manufacture of domestic (not Japan imports) brass F-Units, although their history is far too foggy for me now to know much about them for certain so I could be very wrong.     Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 9/5/2014 10:53:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., I agree those NYSME shows are still fun to go to. My dad and I began visiting in the mid-1960s, so have seen lots of changes and improvements over the years. Those P2 locomotives are also great looking models, and the New York Central lightning stripe scheme looked good on them. I seem to remember there was another vintage manufacturer who reportedly made some. Without checking I believe the name was "Denise" and they were located on the Eastside in Manhattan. I'm not sure if anybody has ever seen the model, though. I believe Jim Heckard had searched for a long time. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23119	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Attachments : Yes, they did retard the cars in the hump yard with compress air.  It was nice to watch.  My first visit was in 1962 or 63.  We had a small model railroad group in my grammar school and that was our trip.  Dad’s and their sons went to Carlstadt.  My Dad took me back every other year I think as well.  But once they tore out that hump yard it was not the same.  The O scale side seemed to stay the same longer.  Those trains made a sound when passing you.  I did buy my two Plastic bodied Penn-Line Midget diesels there.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2014 12:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco     Hi Ray W., That was a good description of the NYSME.  I also missed seeing the operating hump yard when I discovered it was removed.  I believe they were able to retard the speed of descent with puffs of directed compressed air, and it was quite impressive in operation. Their layouts are still worth a visit and they have an interesting website. For those of you outside of the NY Metropolitan area, their website contains history, photos and videos.  I believe they had a pioneering HO scale layout when the moved to Hoboken after WW2, but no photos of that here:  http://modelengineers.org/railroads.html  W. Jay W.     On Saturday, September 6, 2014 7:18 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:     Hi Jay,   Just thought I'd mention that the NYSME (New York Society of Model Engineers) have ironically now been located in New Jersey for many more years than they were ever in New York (City).  After making a circuit of about four places in Manhattan starting in 1926, they moved to the DL&W's Hoboken Terminal after WW II.  In 1958, they had to move again, to their present and permanent building on Paterson Plank Road in Carlstadt -- a couple of blocks off of NJ Route 17.  I'm sure you know even much more about them, but I thought I'd throw this in here for the members who aren't that familiar with this club.  They now own that building so there's no more moving needed from now on.   Some members may not know that they have two separate layouts, a 17 scale mile 0 scale layout and a 5.5 scale mile H0 scale layout.  I first started visiting them in the mid 70's; should have gone there sooner.  I try to get down there every year or so maybe skipping a year in between at times.  Besides having a couple of open house weekends around Christmas, I believe they still have it open to the public sometime in the Spring each year.  I remember going to a couple of their weekly Friday night (used to be Wednesday) work sessions to see what went on those night and to inquire about joining.  After the 3rd or 4th work session I looked in on, I decided against joining only because it became obvious that they never quit working on changing the layout and its scenery.   Now I don't mind working on scenery -- it's all part of model railroading and building a layout -- but I wouldn't want to do that consistently, to the exclusion of operating.  Except for the open house days/shows though, I never saw a work session night where trains were operated, so I decided to opt out of joining.    The layouts seem to be in a constant flux of change as just about every year it's open to the public, these layouts are different.  Could be that they just want to present a somewhat different layout to the public each year so as not to tire them of the same thing.   I remember one year they had put in an operating H0 scale hump yard, only to be extremely disappointed to find that it was removed by the following year's shows.  I don't think they realize that there are some things that the public looks for year after year, just like they look for the elephants in the circus.  While these changes usually aren't too drastic from year to year even if sometimes substantial, they've made at least three major changes that I know of, including a complete tear-down in the mid-80's.  They do some excellent work however, and they sure put on an excellent show around the Holidays.  The H0 scale layout is loosely modeled after the Erie RR's New York Division -- Jersey City, NJ to Port Jervis, NY.        I seem to recall a "Denise" H0 manufacturing company, or at least a company very similar to that name.  For some reason, I'm connecting them with the manufacture of domestic (not Japan imports) brass F-Units, although their history is far too foggy for me now to know much about them for certain so I could be very wrong.     Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 9/5/2014 10:53:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., I agree those NYSME shows are still fun to go to. My dad and I began visiting in the mid-1960s, so have seen lots of changes and improvements over the years. Those P2 locomotives are also great looking models, and the New York Central lightning stripe scheme looked good on them. I seem to remember there was another vintage manufacturer who reportedly made some. Without checking I believe the name was "Denise" and they were located on the Eastside in Manhattan. I'm not sure if anybody has ever seen the model, though. I believe Jim Heckard had searched for a long time. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23120	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Picked Up At The Train Show Today

The Big Texas Train Show is going on today and tomorrow at the George R. Brown Convention Center in Houston. The show is claimed to be 100,000 sq. feet of modular layouts and dealers. I volunteered to bring in the stuff and set up the booth for the San Jacinto MRR Club. As I was done with that about an hour before opening I had the chance to wander and get first look at the offerings. Here's what I threw some money at: Campbell Early Day Gondola #202-350. Although very familiar with their wonderful structure kits I was not aware that Campbell had ever manufactured any rolling stock kits. So this was a real surprise and a very lucky find. The sides are pre-painted for UP and only have a car number, no other dimensional data. It has the same snap-in king pin and bolsters found on Central Valley kits but I'm not sure if the trucks are actually Central Valley. At least it doesn't have the blue lacquer on the axles typically seen on Central Valley truck for insulation. Trucks, bolsters, king pins and some other detail parts are still sealed in a plastic bag. Ulrich PRR Composite gondola. Mostly built up, just a few details and the addition of trucks and couplers to finish it. Looks like decent work was put into it. Silver Streak (by Tru-Scale) Nickel Plate Gondola. I got 2 of these; deluxe kits with sprung metal trucks. Silver Streak (by Walthers) Piedmont & Northern 36' box car. No trucks in this kit. Bought mainly for the unusual road name which I don't have anything for. Ambroid Great Northern caboose, #K-9. I don't specifically model any particular railroad but I have a couple of GN articulateds by Tenshodo (a 2-6-8-0 and a 2-8-8-0) so I need something to go behind them. And finally something that may be outside of the normal span of this group: Hallmark brass Whitcomb Class #8120 - #8147 center cab diesel switcher. I like unusual locos, as indicated by my 2 GN engines mentioned above, so when I saw this one it just sang to me. -- Rick Jones "A Puritan is a person who has the haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy." -H. L. Mencken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23121	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today

Hi Rick J., You have some interesting finds there. I believe that Campbell gon was catalogued in the mid to late 60s, you might want to check their catalog at HO seeker.org. I have never actually seen one of those and would have picked it up as well. Those Ulrich composite gons are always nice, and small parts readily obtainable if they are missing. The Piedmont & Northern boxcar another good find - s very interesting road if you're not familiar with it. But I'd say your find of the day was the Hallmark Whitcomb center cab switcher. For some reason the last addition of the Brown Book does not list it – At least I could never find it in there. It's in demand by us Northeast modelers as the Lehigh and New England once had one painted in their snappy black with white pinstripes scheme. If it's made by KTM, some of those gearboxes eventually have problems but Northwest Short Line has replacements. In fact I bought a set just in case that my Hallmark Alco High Hood 1000 switcher ever needs them. I'd say it was a very good day for you! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23122	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today

On 9/6/2014 5:29 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > Hi Rick J., You have some interesting finds there. I believe that > Campbell gon was catalogued in the mid to late 60s, you might want to > check their catalog at HO seeker.org. I have never actually seen one of > those and would have picked it up as well. Those Ulrich composite gons > are always nice, and small parts readily obtainable if they are missing. > The Piedmont & Northern boxcar another good find - s very interesting > road if you're not familiar with it. But I'd say your find of the day > was the Hallmark Whitcomb center cab switcher. For some reason the last > addition of the Brown Book does not list it – At least I could never > find it in there. It's in demand by us Northeast modelers as the Lehigh > and New England once had one painted in their snappy black with white > pinstripes scheme. If it's made by KTM, some of those gearboxes > eventually have problems but Northwest Short Line has replacements. In > fact I bought a set just in case that my Hallmark Alco High Hood 1000 > switcher ever needs them. I'd say it was a very good day for you! W. Jay W. The gears have already broken and been replaced in the Whitcomb. In fact, the split plastic gears were left in the box inside the plastic bag the NWSL replacements came in as evidence of the overhaul. The dealer said that it creeps very nicely. Only paid $145 for it. Not sure if that's average, high or low but it seemed quite reasonable to me. -- Rick Jones Have you noticed that a slight tax increase costs you $200 and a substantial tax cut saves you 30 cents?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23123	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today

Hi Rick J., My usual "East Coast" rule of thumb is to compare the cost to what a regular, non DCC Atlas locomotive costs today, particularly in regard to a locomototive not likely to be mass produced in China today. I would've bought it at that price and then considering that the gears have already been changed over, that would be a bonus. Enjoy it! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23124	From: Rick Jones	Date: 9/6/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today

On 9/6/2014 10:44 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > Hi Rick J., My usual "East Coast" rule of thumb is to compare the cost > to what a regular, non DCC Atlas locomotive costs today, particularly in > regard to a locomototive not likely to be mass produced in China today. > I would've bought it at that price and then considering that the gears > have already been changed over, that would be a bonus. Enjoy it! W. Jay W. Just out of curiosity I did a search on "Hallmark models Whitcomb" and see that one sold on eBay about 3 weeks ago for $405. With that as a reference I'd say that I got a pretty decent deal on mine. -- Rick Jones "Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things." -Big John Dalton

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23125	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: Re: Picked Up At The Train Show Today

You absolutely did well on the Whitcomb. I also admire the little beasts and after a slew of frustration in getting one, it some time ago made my list of things I should make with a laser cutter one day...... If I ever was to have one. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 7, 2014, at 12:49 AM, "Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >> On 9/6/2014 10:44 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: >> >> >> Hi Rick J., My usual "East Coast" rule of thumb is to compare the cost >> to what a regular, non DCC Atlas locomotive costs today, particularly in >> regard to a locomototive not likely to be mass produced in China today. >> I would've bought it at that price and then considering that the gears >> have already been changed over, that would be a bonus. Enjoy it! W. Jay W. > > Just out of curiosity I did a search on "Hallmark models Whitcomb" > and see that one sold on eBay about 3 weeks ago for $405. With that as a > reference I'd say that I got a pretty decent deal on mine. > > -- > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23126	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

Concerning the NYSME, my dad ran a store in the machine shop area for a few years in the 70’s, I was a teenager and would routinely go up there to help. If anyone remembers Ralph Story from Brook Hobby Shop in Bound Brook, NJ, he was teamed with my father to stock and run the store. We sold hundreds of railroad patches to kids who wanted a souvenir, and somewhat less of the big trains.   Anyway, I used to run the compressed air powered hump yard for hours at a time when the show was going on. Worked very well, could be a little tough on Kadee couplers.   One funny thing, if you were retarding an Athearn four bay hopper and hit that air just right, you could send the car back up the hump and recouple with the next car on the hump. So much fun. Too bad they tore it out. It’s true that these guys are always building. I believe that they do have some operating nights other than running exhibition style during the open houses, but if you own your own building and pay NJ taxes, getting that income from the shows is your lifeline, because dues become exhorbitant otherwise.   ANybody remember the rat? One of the members got a rubber rat and attached it to the top of an Athearn Hustler. Once in a while it would come screaming out of a tunnel portal and run across the layout. I had taken a plastic chicken and fastened it to a Penn Line Whitcomb frame to the same effect. (Wonder if that is still in one of my boxes somewhere?)   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23127	From: Bill Porter	Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: New To Me Husky with Missing Horns

Hi Folks, I attended a train show in Melbourne, Florida yesterday. While there, I was attacked by a Lionel Husky. It forced me to take it home and add it to my collection. Sadly, it is missing the metal horns. Does anyone know of a source for a pair of those things? I do know that the repro O-sized ones are too big. I posted pictures on my personal web site (no selling there!) at: http://wpporter.worthygems.com/HKPorterLocosGallery.php Bill -- Bill Porter The Acreage - Florida

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23128	From: Jacob Bechtel	Date: 9/7/2014
Subject: Re: New To Me Husky with Missing Horns

Bill, try the plastic horns from the Athearn Hustler. Jake Bechtel On 9/7/14, Bill Porter wpporter@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > Hi Folks, > > > I attended a train show in Melbourne, Florida yesterday. While there, I > was attacked by a Lionel Husky. It forced me to take it home and add it > to my collection. Sadly, it is missing the metal horns. Does anyone > know of a source for a pair of those things? I do know that the repro > O-sized ones are too big. I posted pictures on my personal web site (no > selling there!) at: > > > http://wpporter.worthygems.com/HKPorterLocosGallery.php > > > Bill > > > -- > Bill Porter > The Acreage - Florida > > > > > ------------------------------------ > Posted by: Bill Porter <wpporter@...> > ------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23129	From: Graeme	Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Re: New To Me Husky with Missing Horns

In message <540C7677.4010000@...>, "Bill Porter wpporter@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes >I attended a train show in Melbourne, Florida yesterday. While there, I >was attacked by a Lionel Husky. It forced me to take it home and add it >to my collection. Sadly, it is missing the metal horns. Does anyone >know of a source for a pair of those things? Hi Bill, That little Lionel loco is very similar to the yard switcher or dock shunter which Tri-ang made in the UK, 40 - 50 years ago : http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/docks.html http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/dock.htm Strikes me that the horn on these is very similar to the horns on the side of the Lionel loco. You will not want to know that I sold two of those little switchers recently, for very little cash. Delighted to see what spare parts can be found here in the UK, if of interest. Cheers, -- Graeme

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23130	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 9/8/2014
Subject: Another you tube of the NY Society of Model Engineers

Found this one today of the NYSME from March of 2014. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBce1OVC4dM Just over 10 minutes, but looked nice.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23131	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/9/2014
Subject: Re: MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco

On 07/09/14 23:05, 'Jim Waterman' Watermaj@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Concerning the NYSME, my dad ran a store in the machine shop area for > a few years in the 70’s, I was a teenager and would routinely go up > there to help. If anyone remembers Ralph Story from Brook Hobby Shop > in Bound Brook, NJ, he was teamed with my father to stock and run the > store. We sold hundreds of railroad patches to kids who wanted a > souvenir, and somewhat less of the big trains. > > Anyway, I used to run the compressed air powered hump yard for hours > at a time when the show was going on. Worked very well, could be a > little tough on Kadee couplers. > > One funny thing, if you were retarding an Athearn four bay hopper and > hit that air just right, you could send the car back up the hump and > recouple with the next car on the hump. So much fun. Too bad they > tore it out. It’s true that these guys are always building. I believe > that they do have some operating nights other than running exhibition > style during the open houses, but if you own your own building and > pay NJ taxes, getting that income from the shows is your lifeline, > because dues become exhorbitant otherwise. > > ANybody remember the rat? One of the members got a rubber rat and > attached it to the top of an Athearn Hustler. Once in a while it > would come screaming out of a tunnel portal and run across the > layout. I had taken a plastic chicken and fastened it to a Penn Line > Whitcomb frame to the same effect. (Wonder if that is still in one of > my boxes somewhere?) > > Jim Waterman Jim, it's true! MODEL RAILROADING IS FUN! I've taken the liberty of forwarding your posting to some of my local fellow modelers.. Hope you don't mind! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23132	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/12/2014
Subject: Super Scale NYC EMC 600 h.p. SW-1

Attachments : superscaleemc600hpswitcher-23132.jpg Super Scale SW-1, Jim Heckard Collection.jpg Super Scale NYC EMC SW-1.jpg Hi All, It seems that I am on an unintentional New York Central kick lately, which began with the Model Engineering Works T-1a  B-B+B-B electric locomotive I showed here a week or so ago. Here is another, more obscure "NYC" find.  While I don't have the 1950's Super Scale models on my eBay watch list, I have always hoped to find one, and I finally did! It was not identified as such on eBay; I suppose many passed it by as it was probably confused with a somewhat mistreated, but actually larger Varney NW-2.    Body-wise, the paint and decals (correctly numbered) just need a touch up, the missing railings were in a pill bottle and just have to find and mount a suitable bell, per NYC practice. A slight challenge will be recreating the simple cast white metal step insert, at the rear and more clearly seen in both the instructions and photo of the unassembled kit from Jim Heckard's collection at hooseeker.org (second and third photos). I'm thinking that some stacked square tubing would work.   As I understand it, the ""molded copper" bodies came pre-assembled.  The only drawback to my new find is that the previous owner drilled a somewhat egg shaped hole in the top of the hood, and also the brass base; not sure what the object was,  possibly for a second stack or just to assemble body and frame.  A rectangular, hatch sized piece of shim brass, painted matching black will cover it.    Obviously, the "bigfoot" Varney EMD F-unit Blomberg truck side frame's are incorrect. I have to dig out the correct. brass Lindsay switcher side frames from my parts inventory. I will also have to find a Lindsay power truck for it on eBay or at a show as well, which is what was recommended by Super Scale.    I'm thrilled to have found this early, obscure model, but also know that Super Scale also made a model of the larger 1,000 h.p. EMD switcher and a matching 1,000 h.p. " calf unit which one of our members here showed not too long ago. The search will continue!    W. Jay W.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23133	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/14/2014
Subject: Varney [?] pendulum car

I have one of the vintage Great Northern pendulum car kits........... Maybe its an American Beauty kit........ It has two of the same right [?] side, sides in it. If built you get a door on opposite corners instead of both doors on the same end of the car. My question is......... Is this normal for that kit? Was the actual RR car built like that? I've got ideas on how to fix it, but should it have both sides of door on the same end? Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23134	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/14/2014
Subject: Re: Varney [?] pendulum car

Hi Mike B., Will check mine out when I get home. However I checked the web and this all brass model from "The Coach Yard" seems to have two different sides, which would prototypically be correct; see link below. To my knowledge, American Beauty is the only firm that manufactured models of this car in during the vintage era in HO scale, but they made it available in two lengths, Standard and "Shorty." Jay W. --------------------------------------------------- http://brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/035434/HO-TCY-Coach-Yard-Custom-GN-Empire-Builder-68-Seat-Chair-Car-999 Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23135	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/15/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric

Hello Ray W., and All, about a week ago, while discussing my NYC T-1a, you had mentioned your NYC P-2 decorated in the very attractive lightning strike scheme and I had mentioned I thought that a firm named "Denise" manufactured one much earlier. I have finally located my Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon, 1976 edition, and am able to report that I was in error. According to Lenahan, Denise manufactured a Great Northern Y-1 electric in 1939, consisting of a bronze casting and brass side frames, built to 1/8 inch scale, rather than HO. Not sure how I confused the Y1/FF-2 with the CUT/NYC P-2! Interestingly, Lenahan also listed the same model from Denise built in 1939 as a Pennsylvania Railroad FF-2. This would've been impossible as the Pennsylvania Railroad did not purchase the GN Y-1 class from the Great Northern and build it into their own FF-2 class until 1956! Among easy to spot differences, Lenahan noted that the PRR eliminated the box-cab's side doors and changed headlights. I remember that Jim H. mentioned that Denise locomotive at one time, noting he had never seen even a photograph of one. If anyone has a 1939 or so editions of MR magazine, I believe I once saw an address for the firm listed on the upper Eastside in New York City, likely a residential address. Jay From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: RE: [vintageHO] MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco Sent: Sat, Sep 6, 2014 5:53:45 PM   Yes, they did retard the cars in the hump yard with compress air.  It was nice to watch.  My first visit was in 1962 or 63.  We had a small model railroad group in my grammar school and that was our trip.  Dad’s and their sons went to Carlstadt.  My Dad took me back every other year I think as well.  But once they tore out that hump yard it was not the same.  The O scale side seemed to stay the same longer.  Those trains made a sound when passing you.  I did buy my two Plastic bodied Penn-Line Midget diesels there.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2014 12:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco     Hi Ray W., That was a good description of the NYSME.  I also missed seeing the operating hump yard when I discovered it was removed.  I believe they were able to retard the speed of descent with puffs of directed compressed air, and it was quite impressive in operation. Their layouts are still worth a visit and they have an interesting website. For those of you outside of the NY Metropolitan area, their website contains history, photos and videos.  I believe they had a pioneering HO scale layout when the moved to Hoboken after WW2, but no photos of that here:  http://modelengineers.org/railroads.html  W. Jay W.     On Saturday, September 6, 2014 7:18 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:     Hi Jay,   Just thought I'd mention that the NYSME (New York Society of Model Engineers) have ironically now been located in New Jersey for many more years than they were ever in New York (City).  After making a circuit of about four places in Manhattan starting in 1926, they moved to the DL&W's Hoboken Terminal after WW II.  In 1958, they had to move again, to their present and permanent building on Paterson Plank Road in Carlstadt -- a couple of blocks off of NJ Route 17.  I'm sure you know even much more about them, but I thought I'd throw this in here for the members who aren't that familiar with this club.  They now own that building so there's no more moving needed from now on.   Some members may not know that they have two separate layouts, a 17 scale mile 0 scale layout and a 5.5 scale mile H0 scale layout.  I first started visiting them in the mid 70's; should have gone there sooner.  I try to get down there every year or so maybe skipping a year in between at times.  Besides having a couple of open house weekends around Christmas, I believe they still have it open to the public sometime in the Spring each year.  I remember going to a couple of their weekly Friday night (used to be Wednesday) work sessions to see what went on those night and to inquire about joining.  After the 3rd or 4th work session I looked in on, I decided against joining only because it became obvious that they never quit working on changing the layout and its scenery.   Now I don't mind working on scenery -- it's all part of model railroading and building a layout -- but I wouldn't want to do that consistently, to the exclusion of operating.  Except for the open house days/shows though, I never saw a work session night where trains were operated, so I decided to opt out of joining.    The layouts seem to be in a constant flux of change as just about every year it's open to the public, these layouts are different.  Could be that they just want to present a somewhat different layout to the public each year so as not to tire them of the same thing.   I remember one year they had put in an operating H0 scale hump yard, only to be extremely disappointed to find that it was removed by the following year's shows.  I don't think they realize that there are some things that the public looks for year after year, just like they look for the elephants in the circus.  While these changes usually aren't too drastic from year to year even if sometimes substantial, they've made at least three major changes that I know of, including a complete tear-down in the mid-80's.  They do some excellent work however, and they sure put on an excellent show around the Holidays.  The H0 scale layout is loosely modeled after the Erie RR's New York Division -- Jersey City, NJ to Port Jervis, NY.        I seem to recall a "Denise" H0 manufacturing company, or at least a company very similar to that name.  For some reason, I'm connecting them with the manufacture of domestic (not Japan imports) brass F-Units, although their history is far too foggy for me now to know much about them for certain so I could be very wrong.     Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 9/5/2014 10:53:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., I agree those NYSME shows are still fun to go to. My dad and I began visiting in the mid-1960s, so have seen lots of changes and improvements over the years. Those P2 locomotives are also great looking models, and the New York Central lightning stripe scheme looked good on them. I seem to remember there was another vintage manufacturer who reportedly made some. Without checking I believe the name was "Denise" and they were located on the Eastside in Manhattan. I'm not sure if anybody has ever seen the model, though. I believe Jim Heckard had searched for a long time. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23136	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/15/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Hi Jay,   Good to see you dug up the Denise name in Lenahan's Lexicon  and that they produced a GN Y-1 heavy motor.  I don't know why I thought they made an F-Unit.  At least you had them making an electric, even if it was one that only made it to Harmon rather than climbing the Rockies < g >.  Looks like Lenahan could sometimes be wrong too, as you pointed out with the PRR FF-2.    I have all MR issues of 1939, so I'll give it a try looking up this manufacturer.  One problem is, that my early MR's are stored away in the attic, and so could take some time to locate -- but I'll give it a shot.  BTW, I have MR years 1940, 42, 43, 44, 45, 47, 48, 49, 50 etc., etc. complete through 1953.  Missing September of 1954.  Have 1936 as a bound volume -- but I'm missing December of 1941 and of 1946.  If anyone has any duplicate of these two issues they want to sell, please let me know,  Also need Jan, Oct and Nov of 1938 and ten issues from 1937 (except for Jan and Mar).  I'm not that concerned about completing MR from 1955 on, even though I have most of them, as I know I'll never find them all.  Could use November '62 to complete that year though.   Lots of those early manufacturers had residential addresses, working out of their garages back then, but they produced quality stuff.  If you recall, it was explained that Conover was one of these and many which went on to moving into warehouses started out this way.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/15/2014 11:54:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello Ray W., and All, about a week ago, while discussing my NYC T-1a, you had mentioned your NYC P-2 decorated in the very attractive lightning strike scheme and I had mentioned I thought that a firm named "Denise" manufactured one much earlier. I have finally located my Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon, 1976 edition, and am able to report that I was in error. According to Lenahan, Denise manufactured a Great Northern Y-1 electric in 1939, consisting of a bronze casting and brass side frames, built to 1/8 inch scale, rather than HO. Not sure how I confused the Y1/FF-2 with the CUT/NYC P-2! Interestingly, Lenahan also listed the same model from Denise built in 1939 as a Pennsylvania Railroad FF-2. This would've been impossible as the Pennsylvania Railroad did not purchase the GN Y-1 class from the Great Northern and build it into their own FF-2 class until 1956! Among easy to spot differences, Lenahan noted that the PRR eliminated the box-cab's side doors and changed headlights. I remember that Jim H. mentioned that Denise locomotive at one time, noting he had never seen even a photograph of one. If anyone has a 1939 or so editions of MR magazine, I believe I once saw an address for the firm listed on the upper Eastside in New York City, likely a residential address. Jay From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: RE: [vintageHO] MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco Sent: Sat, Sep 6, 2014 5:53:45 PM   Yes, they did retard the cars in the hump yard with compress air.  It was nice to watch.  My first visit was in 1962 or 63.  We had a small model railroad group in my grammar school and that was our trip.  Dad’s and their sons went to Carlstadt.  My Dad took me back every other year I think as well.  But once they tore out that hump yard it was not the same.  The O scale side seemed to stay the same longer.  Those trains made a sound when passing you.  I did buy my two Plastic bodied Penn-Line Midget diesels there.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2014 12:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco   Hi Ray W., That was a good description of the NYSME.  I also missed seeing the operating hump yard when I discovered it was removed.  I believe they were able to retard the speed of descent with puffs of directed compressed air, and it was quite impressive in operation. Their layouts are still worth a visit and they have an interesting website. For those of you outside of the NY Metropolitan area, their website contains history, photos and videos.  I believe they had a pioneering HO scale layout when the moved to Hoboken after WW2, but no photos of that here:  http://modelengineers.org/railroads.html  W. Jay W.     On Saturday, September 6, 2014 7:18 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:     Hi Jay,   Just thought I'd mention that the NYSME (New York Society of Model Engineers) have ironically now been located in New Jersey for many more years than they were ever in New York (City).  After making a circuit of about four places in Manhattan starting in 1926, they moved to the DL&W's Hoboken Terminal after WW II.  In 1958, they had to move again, to their present and permanent building on Paterson Plank Road in Carlstadt -- a couple of blocks off of NJ Route 17.  I'm sure you know even much more about them, but I thought I'd throw this in here for the members who aren't that familiar with this club.  They now own that building so there's no more moving needed from now on.   Some members may not know that they have two separate layouts, a 17 scale mile 0 scale layout and a 5.5 scale mile H0 scale layout.  I first started visiting them in the mid 70's; should have gone there sooner.  I try to get down there every year or so maybe skipping a year in between at times.  Besides having a couple of open house weekends around Christmas, I believe they still have it open to the public sometime in the Spring each year.  I remember going to a couple of their weekly Friday night (used to be Wednesday) work sessions to see what went on those night and to inquire about joining.  After the 3rd or 4th work session I looked in on, I decided against joining only because it became obvious that they never quit working on changing the layout and its scenery.   Now I don't mind working on scenery -- it's all part of model railroading and building a layout -- but I wouldn't want to do that consistently, to the exclusion of operating.  Except for the open house days/shows though, I never saw a work session night where trains were operated, so I decided to opt out of joining.    The layouts seem to be in a constant flux of change as just about every year it's open to the public, these layouts are different.  Could be that they just want to present a somewhat different layout to the public each year so as not to tire them of the same thing.   I remember one year they had put in an operating H0 scale hump yard, only to be extremely disappointed to find that it was removed by the following year's shows.  I don't think they realize that there are some things that the public looks for year after year, just like they look for the elephants in the circus.  While these changes usually aren't too drastic from year to year even if sometimes substantial, they've made at least three major changes that I know of, including a complete tear-down in the mid-80's.  They do some excellent work however, and they sure put on an excellent show around the Holidays.  The H0 scale layout is loosely modeled after the Erie RR's New York Division -- Jersey City, NJ to Port Jervis, NY.        I seem to recall a "Denise" H0 manufacturing company, or at least a company very similar to that name.  For some reason, I'm connecting them with the manufacture of domestic (not Japan imports) brass F-Units, although their history is far too foggy for me now to know much about them for certain so I could be very wrong.     Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 9/5/2014 10:53:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., I agree those NYSME shows are still fun to go to. My dad and I began visiting in the mid-1960s, so have seen lots of changes and improvements over the years. Those P2 locomotives are also great looking models, and the New York Central lightning stripe scheme looked good on them. I seem to remember there was another vintage manufacturer who reportedly made some. Without checking I believe the name was "Denise" and they were located on the Eastside in Manhattan. I'm not sure if anybody has ever seen the model, though. I believe Jim Heckard had searched for a long time. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23137	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric

Attachments : I may have a casting set for the cab of the engine. It is mounted on a Penn Line GG1 frame, so I don’t have the original side frames. I see there is no picture of this model in Lenihan’s.   Anyone know if this is the Denise cab set? I’ve owned this since I was a kid, the shell was in one of my dad’s parts boxes, probably there twenty years before that.   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23138	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric

Hi Jim W., Very interesting, would love to see a photograph of it. Though in reading Lenahan's yesterday, I also noticed that Trackside Specialties, your dad apparently made three pieces of the PRR version, the FF-2 electric locomotive, and it does not indicate whether it was cast bronze or etched brass sheet stock. There might be several ways of making a conclusive identification, based upon information we have or can obtain. First, we know from Lenahan's that Denise's Great Northern Y-1 was made of cast bronze and made in 1/8 inch scale, not the slightly larger HO 3.5mm to the foot. If we find a scale drawing of the Y-1, we will know the length of the boxcab-style body and then measuring your model's boxcab-style body, see if it checks out to that dimension in 1/8 or 3.5 mm scale. Obviously if it's Denise model it should also have the side door each side. So, if it is cast bronze, has the side door and scales out to prototypical length in 1/8" scale it would the rare 1939 Denise model powered by the later Penn-Line mechanism, which your dad had plenty of! If your model's box-cab style body scales out to 3.5 mm to the foot and lacks the side door it is likely one of your dad's very rare Trackside Specialties models. In addition and as far as I know, your dad's box cab style bodies were all made of etched brass, so if your model was constructed of even heavier pieces of etched brass and lacks the side door, that would be additional confirmation of Trackside Specialties heritage. The best part is in either case, at least in my humble opinion, you likely have one of the rarest locomotives ever manufactured in HO scale! W.Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23139	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Jim,   This is not the Denise cab as it's much too short.  At least it's not the Great Northern cab they produced, but if Denise produced another electric loco, your's could be one of them.  I'll check later (1941, on) MR magazines for other Denise ads as time permits.  Just got done going through 1939 and 1940 MR's, which I'll reply to Jay on, right after sending this.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/16/2014 6:08:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I may have a casting set for the cab of the engine. It is mounted on a Penn Line GG1 frame, so I don’t have the original side frames. I see there is no picture of this model in Lenihan’s.   Anyone know if this is the Denise cab set? I’ve owned this since I was a kid, the shell was in one of my dad’s parts boxes, probably there twenty years before that.   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23140	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Hi Jay,   Just got done going through the 1939 and 1940 MR mags for Denise ads.  The first Denise ad that appeared was in the October 1939 issue, a half-page ad (5 1/8" x 7") for their HO Great Northern electric, their 3-Way Track Layer (for aligning and spiking hand laid track) and turn-outs mounted on wood-ballasted board.  The track items were all available in "0", "00" and "H0" Gauge.   Accompanied by a nice photo of a finished (decorated, GN) model, the HO Great Northern part of the ad reads:   "Super Detailed To Exact Scale -- HO Great Northern    The first of this modern electric articulated type locomotive with such detail available.  While every part is built to exact scale, low price and ease of assembly are outstanding features.   Hand work production giving this realistic scale detail makes our product limited.  We therefore suggest immediate orders from both users and dealers.   Complete Kit . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $24.50   Assembled, ready to run (unpainted) . . . $29.50 Pantagraphs $3.00 extra     All orders sold with a money back guarantee.  Transportation prepaid when full remittance accompanies order.    R. D. DENISE & CO. 424 East 92nd Street New York, N.Y."   This same size (half-page) ad appears in the November and December 1939 MR, but with slight changes in the text and layout.  Starting in January, 1940, the ads were reduced to a quarter-page (5 1/8" x 3 1/2") and continued this way every month through April in the 1940 MR's, using the same format.  I went as far as May, 1940, when there was a change in the layout announcing "Summer SPECIALS," on their Track Layer and Switches (turnouts).  There was never a mention of a PRR FF-2 since, as you point out, it was impossible as the prototype roads hadn't thought it up yet.  As I'm unable to post the GN Y-1 model's photo, if you care to send me your mailing address off-line, I'll send you a copy of it for you to post.   Ray Wetzel         In a message dated 9/15/2014 11:54:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello Ray W., and All, about a week ago, while discussing my NYC T-1a, you had mentioned your NYC P-2 decorated in the very attractive lightning strike scheme and I had mentioned I thought that a firm named "Denise" manufactured one much earlier. I have finally located my Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon, 1976 edition, and am able to report that I was in error. According to Lenahan, Denise manufactured a Great Northern Y-1 electric in 1939, consisting of a bronze casting and brass side frames, built to 1/8 inch scale, rather than HO. Not sure how I confused the Y1/FF-2 with the CUT/NYC P-2! Interestingly, Lenahan also listed the same model from Denise built in 1939 as a Pennsylvania Railroad FF-2. This would've been impossible as the Pennsylvania Railroad did not purchase the GN Y-1 class from the Great Northern and build it into their own FF-2 class until 1956! Among easy to spot differences, Lenahan noted that the PRR eliminated the box-cab's side doors and changed headlights. I remember that Jim H. mentioned that Denise locomotive at one time, noting he had never seen even a photograph of one. If anyone has a 1939 or so editions of MR magazine, I believe I once saw an address for the firm listed on the upper Eastside in New York City, likely a residential address. Jay From: 'Chuck Higdon' vze5crrw1@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com>; Subject: RE: [vintageHO] MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco Sent: Sat, Sep 6, 2014 5:53:45 PM   Yes, they did retard the cars in the hump yard with compress air.  It was nice to watch.  My first visit was in 1962 or 63.  We had a small model railroad group in my grammar school and that was our trip.  Dad’s and their sons went to Carlstadt.  My Dad took me back every other year I think as well.  But once they tore out that hump yard it was not the same.  The O scale side seemed to stay the same longer.  Those trains made a sound when passing you.  I did buy my two Plastic bodied Penn-Line Midget diesels there.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2014 12:31 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco   Hi Ray W., That was a good description of the NYSME.  I also missed seeing the operating hump yard when I discovered it was removed.  I believe they were able to retard the speed of descent with puffs of directed compressed air, and it was quite impressive in operation. Their layouts are still worth a visit and they have an interesting website. For those of you outside of the NY Metropolitan area, their website contains history, photos and videos.  I believe they had a pioneering HO scale layout when the moved to Hoboken after WW2, but no photos of that here:  http://modelengineers.org/railroads.html  W. Jay W.     On Saturday, September 6, 2014 7:18 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:     Hi Jay,   Just thought I'd mention that the NYSME (New York Society of Model Engineers) have ironically now been located in New Jersey for many more years than they were ever in New York (City).  After making a circuit of about four places in Manhattan starting in 1926, they moved to the DL&W's Hoboken Terminal after WW II.  In 1958, they had to move again, to their present and permanent building on Paterson Plank Road in Carlstadt -- a couple of blocks off of NJ Route 17.  I'm sure you know even much more about them, but I thought I'd throw this in here for the members who aren't that familiar with this club.  They now own that building so there's no more moving needed from now on.   Some members may not know that they have two separate layouts, a 17 scale mile 0 scale layout and a 5.5 scale mile H0 scale layout.  I first started visiting them in the mid 70's; should have gone there sooner.  I try to get down there every year or so maybe skipping a year in between at times.  Besides having a couple of open house weekends around Christmas, I believe they still have it open to the public sometime in the Spring each year.  I remember going to a couple of their weekly Friday night (used to be Wednesday) work sessions to see what went on those night and to inquire about joining.  After the 3rd or 4th work session I looked in on, I decided against joining only because it became obvious that they never quit working on changing the layout and its scenery.   Now I don't mind working on scenery -- it's all part of model railroading and building a layout -- but I wouldn't want to do that consistently, to the exclusion of operating.  Except for the open house days/shows though, I never saw a work session night where trains were operated, so I decided to opt out of joining.    The layouts seem to be in a constant flux of change as just about every year it's open to the public, these layouts are different.  Could be that they just want to present a somewhat different layout to the public each year so as not to tire them of the same thing.   I remember one year they had put in an operating H0 scale hump yard, only to be extremely disappointed to find that it was removed by the following year's shows.  I don't think they realize that there are some things that the public looks for year after year, just like they look for the elephants in the circus.  While these changes usually aren't too drastic from year to year even if sometimes substantial, they've made at least three major changes that I know of, including a complete tear-down in the mid-80's.  They do some excellent work however, and they sure put on an excellent show around the Holidays.  The H0 scale layout is loosely modeled after the Erie RR's New York Division -- Jersey City, NJ to Port Jervis, NY.        I seem to recall a "Denise" H0 manufacturing company, or at least a company very similar to that name.  For some reason, I'm connecting them with the manufacture of domestic (not Japan imports) brass F-Units, although their history is far too foggy for me now to know much about them for certain so I could be very wrong.     Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 9/5/2014 10:53:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., I agree those NYSME shows are still fun to go to. My dad and I began visiting in the mid-1960s, so have seen lots of changes and improvements over the years. Those P2 locomotives are also great looking models, and the New York Central lightning stripe scheme looked good on them. I seem to remember there was another vintage manufacturer who reportedly made some. Without checking I believe the name was "Denise" and they were located on the Eastside in Manhattan. I'm not sure if anybody has ever seen the model, though. I believe Jim Heckard had searched for a long time. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23141	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Attachments : Hi Ray W. Jim W. (and All), I still have some of my MR and RMC collection left after a "pet attack" and water pipe leak last year, and luckily the 1939 MR's survived.  Attached are quick photos of the two principle Denise ads you located, the first in the October issue and the second in the November and December issues.  Thanks for making the time and effort to locate them. Jim  if  is this is not your model, what is it?  Could it be a Trackside Specialties PRR L-1 box-cab, of which Lenahan's reports only 3 were made?  Years back, I saw the etched brass wrapper for the L-1 on eBay and in retrospect, sadly passed it up after it reached 50 or so dollars. At that time I was not a member here, and had no Lenahan's, so I did not realize how rare it was...would never make that mistake again.  One had to add the standard Trackside Specialties PRR cast cab ends, the pilots (the available separately) plus rooftop details and railings and a mechanism of your choice to complete it.  I have never seen a photo of one assembled. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23142	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric

Hi Jim W., OK, I finally found the photos you attached, could not see them though the smart phone Yahoo ap. IMHO, definitely a GN Y-1.  Possibly imported from Japan, maybe a custom order as many post WW-2 servicemen did, or maybe an early International import?  Will try to find out.  W. Jay W. On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 6:08 AM, "'Jim Waterman' Watermaj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I may have a casting set for the cab of the engine. It is mounted on a Penn Line GG1 frame, so I don’t have the original side frames. I see there is no picture of this model in Lenihan’s.   Anyone know if this is the Denise cab set? I’ve owned this since I was a kid, the shell was in one of my dad’s parts boxes, probably there twenty years before that.   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23143	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Hi Jay,   Please take a second look at Jim's photo.  If you still think this is a GN Y-1, why does it appear SO much shorter than the Denise model?  Or, is the Denise model not a Y-1?  BTW, the Class (Y-1) was never included in the Denise ads.    Ray W.     In a message dated 9/16/2014 5:52:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Jim W., OK, I finally found the photos you attached, could not see them though the smart phone Yahoo ap. IMHO, definitely a GN Y-1.  Possibly imported from Japan, maybe a custom order as many post WW-2 servicemen did, or maybe an early International import?  Will try to find out.  W. Jay W. On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 6:08 AM, "'Jim Waterman' Watermaj@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I may have a casting set for the cab of the engine. It is mounted on a Penn Line GG1 frame, so I don’t have the original side frames. I see there is no picture of this model in Lenihan’s.   Anyone know if this is the Denise cab set? I’ve owned this since I was a kid, the shell was in one of my dad’s parts boxes, probably there twenty years before that.   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23144	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/16/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Hi Ray W., Jim W., All, Ray, Thanks for the opportunity to comment upon this again and why I believe it to be a model of the Great Northern prototype. First, I located some early prototype photos online by just googling great Northern Y-1 and compared them to Jim's model. Both the GN Y-1 and Jim's model have the same general side detail location and proportionate spacing, from left to right: cab side window, two vertical rows of horizontal vents, then four "openings" - three windows and the side door, somewhat symmetrically spaced along the side before the next two vertical rows of horizontal vents, followed by the remaining cab side window at right. The side appears to me to match the prototype Y-1. The roof detail resembles a Y-1 in that there are two tanks situated inboard of the pantographs and located across the roof along with longitudinally located tanks between them as seen in Jim's side elevation view. I believe the length of the model is somewhat deceiving as shown, as it is mounted on a GG-1 chassis, 4+C–C+4 and the prototype Y-1 was a 2+C-C+2, which if to scale, would more closely match Jim's assembled body castings in length. Lenahan's indicates that the Denise model is built to 1/8 inch scale rather than HO's 3.5 mm. We need to locate a measured scale drawing and see how Jim's compares to each scale. Jim has said that this model is composed of castings, which is as described in Lenahan's - "Bronze casting." Denise's ad does not indicate the material. Lastly I'm looking at both of Denise's advertisements again. Taking out my magnifying glass and looking at the tiny line of micro-print under the photograph in the October advertisement, it says "Photograph shows prototype, not the model." In a similar vein, the November and December ads say in tiny micro-print below the photo "photo of prototype." I had first assumed that the photographs were of the models, carefully painted and detailed, and which really would be remarkable for the time. This time, before jumping to any conclusions I'm going to spend the next hour or so reading those complete issues of MR, seeing if there are any editorial comments regarding the Denise model. Ray, do you have any more thoughts regarding Jim's interesting model? Jim, or anyone else? Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23145	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Electric

Forgetting that attached photos don’t post, I have uploaded two photos of the mystery Y-1 to a folder, strangely titled ‘Mystery Y-1”. The shell is made of several pieces of what looks like cast bronze, held together by flat head screws. The Penn Line mechanism is held on through tapped holes in the edges of the side castings, using the original PL frame pivot mounts. If any of you can identify it, I would be grateful. I had wondered whether this was a Schrader product, as their early locos were constructed of thick wall bronze castings as well.   This thing weighs a ton!. We had had this shell in a box for many years, I took the initiative to attach a good running GG1 mechanism to it, and found that it was already tapped for those mounts.   By the way, the 3 FF-1’s that my dad made were modified from a brass import, removing the details on the pilots and roof as the PRR had done. I’m thinking they started as MEW models, but not sure. He actually did the same thing with a couple of O scale Y-1’s later in life.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23146	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1

OK, I did a little research. The loco shell I have measures about 8-1/16” in length, which would be about 65’ long at 1/8” scale.   I have the Nj International Electric Loco Plan book from 1987, which has HO scale drawings, which measures the length of the body at just over 64’.   So I’m thinking that this is either the Denise casting set, or someone’s copy of it! I could not open the photo of the 1939 MR ad, if it could be uploaded to the photos folder, I would appreciate it.   Thanks – this has been fun, and solves a long held mystery   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23147	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1

Jim W, I will post the photographs of the Denise MR ads later today when I am back near a PC. Thanks for measuring your neat locomotives and checking it with the prototype plans. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23148	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Hi Jay,   Except for the model I'm looking at being a box cab design, I don't see it as looking anything like the Denise GN Electric (Y-1 ?) as it's much shorter with fewer windows.  Then too, I'm looking at the photo accompanying Jim's message of yesterday (9/16) morning, posted at 6:08:54 AM, and have to assume this is his model.  If it's not, then why is this photo accompanying his message?  Is this by chance, instead, your MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco that's being included with Jim's message?  The body is notably shorter, and I now see that it appears to be mounted on a 4+B+B+4 chassis, which wouldn't be a GG-1.  I don't see any other photo resembling what you're describing.  I have a feeling that I may have been confused with what appears that Jim sent, with no other photo available to me.   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 9/16/2014 10:46:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., Jim W., All, Ray, Thanks for the opportunity to comment upon this again and why I believe it to be a model of the Great Northern prototype. First, I located some early prototype photos online by just googling great Northern Y-1 and compared them to Jim's model. Both the GN Y-1 and Jim's model have the same general side detail location and proportionate spacing, from left to right: cab side window, two vertical rows of horizontal vents, then four "openings" - three windows and the side door, somewhat symmetrically spaced along the side before the next two vertical rows of horizontal vents, followed by the remaining cab side window at right. The side appears to me to match the prototype Y-1. The roof detail resembles a Y-1 in that there are two tanks situated inboard of the pantographs and located across the roof along with longitudinally located tanks between them as seen in Jim's side elevation view. I believe the length of the model is somewhat deceiving as shown, as it is mounted on a GG-1 chassis, 4+C–C+4 and the prototype Y-1 was a 2+C-C+2, which if to scale, would more closely match Jim's assembled body castings in length. Lenahan's indicates that the Denise model is built to 1/8 inch scale rather than HO's 3.5 mm. We need to locate a measured scale drawing and see how Jim's compares to each scale. Jim has said that this model is composed of castings, which is as described in Lenahan's - "Bronze casting." Denise's ad does not indicate the material. Lastly I'm looking at both of Denise's advertisements again. Taking out my magnifying glass and looking at the tiny line of micro-print under the photograph in the October advertisement, it says "Photograph shows prototype, not the model." In a similar vein, the November and December ads say in tiny micro-print below the photo "photo of prototype." I had first assumed that the photographs were of the models, carefully painted and detailed, and which really would be remarkable for the time. This time, before jumping to any conclusions I'm going to spend the next hour or so reading those complete issues of MR, seeing if there are any editorial comments regarding the Denise model. Ray, do you have any more thoughts regarding Jim's interesting model? Jim, or anyone else? Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23149	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1

Hi Jim,   As you're unable to open Jay's photo of the Denise ad, I'd be more than happy to mail you a copy if you want to provide me with your mailing address, off-line.  With your model scaling about 65' long, I have doubts that I've yet seen your photo of it, and it well could be this same Denise GN Electric we're all discussing.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/17/2014 7:37:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   OK, I did a little research. The loco shell I have measures about 8-1/16” in length, which would be about 65’ long at 1/8” scale.   I have the Nj International Electric Loco Plan book from 1987, which has HO scale drawings, which measures the length of the body at just over 64’.   So I’m thinking that this is either the Denise casting set, or someone’s copy of it! I could not open the photo of the 1939 MR ad, if it could be uploaded to the photos folder, I would appreciate it.   Thanks – this has been fun, and solves a long held mystery   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23150	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

By chance, Does this body look like it was poured or granular metal inside and smooth featured with details outside? I ask because I have a Paul Moore trolley kit made in that way and recently I found an ad from the place that used that process on custom runs. I'll attach the ad[s]. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 17, 2014, at 8:59 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Hi Jay,   Except for the model I'm looking at being a box cab design, I don't see it as looking anything like the Denise GN Electric (Y-1 ?) as it's much shorter with fewer windows.  Then too, I'm looking at the photo accompanying Jim's message of yesterday (9/16) morning, posted at 6:08:54 AM, and have to assume this is his model.  If it's not, then why is this photo accompanying his message?  Is this by chance, instead, your MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco that's being included with Jim's message?  The body is notably shorter, and I now see that it appears to be mounted on a 4+B+B+4 chassis, which wouldn't be a GG-1.  I don't see any other photo resembling what you're describing.  I have a feeling that I may have been confused with what appears that Jim sent, with no other photo available to me.   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23151	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: A little bit of hidden treasure

I saw a hint of something interesting in a picture from one of the eBay auctions. the first image attached..... There seemed to be some Paul Moore parts in there The find arrived today and the second image shows the sides from the mostly complete Paul Moore [jumbled] kits found there.....  A short Doodlebug, a medium trolley, and a traction boxcar. Roofs, floors and other details were found, marked up for proper completion of the kits. As originals they are too nice to build. As patterns they will be great to make in modern technology with better detail like all of the missing rivets. I find them to be quite interesting in how the sides are built-up and the reuse of previously printed card-stock that is obviously reprinted on the painted sides and used for the manufacture of these car sides. If built in sheet styrene as the card and paper sides are, they would still be nice looking cars. My dream is to laser cut them in something over a couple of months from now. My later dream is to preprint them in the old Varney printed passenger car style with the printed on rivets, fully colored and 'decaled' before cutting and assembly. Maybe not strictly original Vintage. But getting these to the point of operating with an updated look is worth it in my eyes. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23152	From: Garry Spear	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Just as Information a NYC T-1 is a B+B+B+B.  The lead and trailing trucks are powered. Garry Spear On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 9:59 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hi Jay,   Except for the model I'm looking at being a box cab design, I don't see it as looking anything like the Denise GN Electric (Y-1 ?) as it's much shorter with fewer windows.  Then too, I'm looking at the photo accompanying Jim's message of yesterday (9/16) morning, posted at 6:08:54 AM, and have to assume this is his model.  If it's not, then why is this photo accompanying his message?  Is this by chance, instead, your MEW NYC T-1 Electric Loco that's being included with Jim's message?  The body is notably shorter, and I now see that it appears to be mounted on a 4+B+B+4 chassis, which wouldn't be a GG-1.  I don't see any other photo resembling what you're describing.  I have a feeling that I may have been   ​

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23153	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive

Attachments : Denise MR October, 1939 ad.jpg Denise MR Nov, Dec ad.jpg Hi Ray W., Jim W. and All.   I posted clearer images of the 1939 R.D. Denise Model Railroader magazine advertisements, published in October (larger Great Northern prototype Y-1 image) and Nov-Dec in a separate album beginning with "Denise." The same new ad photos are also attached to this post.  (Jim W. has also posted photographs in a new separate album as well, for those like me who initially had a difficult time seeing them in the original thread, which continued with an older image of my MEW NYC T-1a.   The "micro-print" under the advertisement images indicates that the photos are of the prototype GN locomotive, not the Denise model, which at first I believed they showed. Hope everyone can see them now!   W. Jay W.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23154	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/17/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...

W. Jay W.,   The Denise ad photos you've posted came through loud & clear and shouldn't be a hindrance to anyone in being able to see them.  This should give Jim a good comparison with his model, even though these pics are of the prototype.  With his further description as to whether his sides are thin cast brass (bronze) or not, that should help his I.D. even more.   While on the thread of Denise, I happened to see a small blurb in the same October 1939 MR under Trade Topics, dealing with the track they advertised.  It seems it was similar to Tru-Scale track, although with separate ties.  It reads:   Ready-Made Track   R. D. Denise & Co., 424 E. 92nd St., New York, N.Y.:  Denise HO gauge ready-made track is available in a number of different radius curves and the straight track is made up in 18" lengths, mounted on painted plywood.  Creosoted wood ties are used.  No. 6 switch to match the above track is also available.  Quality O.K.      I doubt anyone will be on the lookout for this trackage, as there are so many better products today, but it just looked interesting, having real creosoted ties.   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/17/2014 5:47:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., Jim W. and All.   I posted clearer images of the 1939 R.D. Denise Model Railroader magazine advertisements, published in October (larger Great Northern prototype Y-1 image) and Nov-Dec in a separate album beginning with "Denise." The same new ad photos are also attached to this post.  (Jim W. has also posted photographs in a new separate album as well, for those like me who initially had a difficult time seeing them in the original thread, which continued with an older image of my MEW NYC T-1a.   The "micro-print" under the advertisement images indicates that the photos are of the prototype GN locomotive, not the Denise model, which at first I believed they showed. Hope everyone can see them now!   W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23155	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Mike,   Looking through the cast windows, the inside of the castings are rough, like they were sand cast. Not sure how they got the outside surface more smooth, if it was like Jim Heckards Conover 2-10-2 model, it was through a lot of finishing.   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23156	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Hi Jim W., and All, The smooth outer surface finish and rough interior finish is typical of many of the older castings that I have and have seen. In fact there were a number of cast bronze EMD FT's shown here a few months ago which illustrated the much rougher interior surface. Sand casting can produce quite a smooth exterior finish depending on the care that the mold maker takes, for example using a good quality fine sand to carefully layer and firmly pack around the master, etc. leading to smoother exterior finishes require little final work. Back in the day in middle school, we all had shop, more formally called "industrial arts" in which we learned the sand-casting process. Back then, I never realized I could've been casting locomotive body shells, instead we were satisfied with bookends and such! Of course back then we were using cheaper base metals as well not bronze! Wikipedia has a good but lengthy article – Google "sand-casting." W Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23157	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...

Hi Ray W., I agree, Denise's track looked interesting, though I wonder how much of it was produced before the company seems to have disappeared. I would like to see or find a sample. Just guessing, possibly the owner of Denise and Co. was drafted or volunteered into the service for World War II. Many firms did not survive the war for one reason or another. I checked Google Street view of their address on the upper East side of Manhattan and there is a more modern building there that is an ASPCA animal hospital. _______________________________________ I thumbed through some of my other 1939 MR's last evening and saw at least one additional track ads earlier in the year and also a few editorial mentions in the short paragraphs trade topics. Unfortunately my collection of early MR's jumps from 1939 to 1943, so I as well cannot report if there are any additional ads or mentions in 1940. W Jay W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23158	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...

Hi Jay,   I missed that earlier 1939 Denise ad on their track, but that wasn't what I was looking for anyway.  I am curious about how that track looked though, and just like you, I'm curious about how much of it might have been produced.  I'll check my other MR's at least right up to December 1941 and I'll go into '42 if if I see anything the previous year.    I have a feeling that since they had to have been a small company, that they didn't make very much (of anything, including that track).  Their Y-1's sure don't pop up on eBay like early Varney or Mantua models.  Okay, that might be a bad comparison; we don't see many Varney pre-War shorty GG-1's either -- but then, every prototype railroad had steam engines, while not all that many used heavy electrics for a modeler to copy after.    Ray     In a message dated 9/18/2014 11:18:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., I agree, Denise's track looked interesting, though I wonder how much of it was produced before the company seems to have disappeared. I would like to see or find a sample. Just guessing, possibly the owner of Denise and Co. was drafted or volunteered into the service for World War II. Many firms did not survive the war for one reason or another. I checked Google Street view of their address on the upper East side of Manhattan and there is a more modern building there that is an ASPCA animal hospital. _______________________________________ I thumbed through some of my other 1939 MR's last evening and saw at least one additional track ads earlier in the year and also a few editorial mentions in the short paragraphs trade topics. Unfortunately my collection of early MR's jumps from 1939 to 1943, so I as well cannot report if there are any additional ads or mentions in 1940. W Jay W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23159	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...

Jay,   I picked up where I left off looking through MR until May of 1940.  The June and July 1940 MR mags have the same Denise ad about "Summer Specials!"  As I said a couple of days ago, this ad shows only the Switches (turnouts) and the Track Layer/Spiker.    NOW, the August '40 MR ad for Denise says the following:   DENISE says:   Look for our ad in the next issue   BIG NEWS COMING!   Startling NEW Great Northern Locomotive!   Marvelous NEW ACCESSORIES!   NEW CATALOG READY SEPTEMBER FIRST   R. D. Denise & Co. 424 East 92nd St. New York   That's all for August 1940.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/18/2014 11:18:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., I agree, Denise's track looked interesting, though I wonder how much of it was produced before the company seems to have disappeared. I would like to see or find a sample. Just guessing, possibly the owner of Denise and Co. was drafted or volunteered into the service for World War II. Many firms did not survive the war for one reason or another. I checked Google Street view of their address on the upper East side of Manhattan and there is a more modern building there that is an ASPCA animal hospital. _______________________________________ I thumbed through some of my other 1939 MR's last evening and saw at least one additional track ads earlier in the year and also a few editorial mentions in the short paragraphs trade topics. Unfortunately my collection of early MR's jumps from 1939 to 1943, so I as well cannot report if there are any additional ads or mentions in 1940. W Jay W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23160	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

If that is sandy looking... thats the sand cast method you might expect. If it looks bubbly......... thats the exotic Exacta molding method. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 18, 2014, at 5:56 AM, 'Jim Waterman' Watermaj@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > > Looking through the cast windows, the inside of the castings are rough, like they were sand cast. Not sure how they got the outside surface more smooth, if it was like Jim Heckards Conover 2-10-2 model, it was through a lot of finishing. > > Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23161	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...

Jay,   Thought I'd keep you in suspense for one more post < g >.  The September and October 1940 Denise ads in MR read like this:   HERE IT IS!   OUR STARTLING NEW HO GREAT NORTHERN POWERED BY PITTMAN!   Improved more than 200% over our previous unit of this type.  A modern job in every detail -- all in exact scale. Statuary bronze castings   Assembled prices on request.   KIT COMPLETE - Postpaid $34.50   NEW CATALOG 10c Lists new accessories, etc. (Refunded on first order) Ready Oct. 1st.   R. D. Denise & Co. 424 East 92nd St.  New York     The same prototype GN Y-1 photo appears in this ad, as did in the earlier ads for this model.  The Pittman motor is apparently one major improvement, but it's unclear what the "200%" improvement includes, but "statuary bronze" consists of no more than 10% tin and at least 90% copper.  Maybe this was the improvement.  The surface may have been treated with acid to create a dark brown color, as per Merriam Webster Online, although I doubt if a railroad model was treated in this way.  I hadn't seen bronze of any type mentioned before this, but it may have been used all along, although that remains to be seen -- and if it was, we can't know if it was 'statuary bronze' until now (9/40).    No other ads for Denise appear in MR -- for November and December 1940, for all of 1941 and all of 1942.  I hadn't checked 1943 MR's, although you may already have.  Last ad was October 1940.  Looks like the Denise Company was rather short-lived, and only produced one model, although a nice one if it was designed and engineered properly.  As they offered a 'new catalog' (ready Oct. 1st, 1940) though, they could have been manufacturing up until the War broke out for us in 12/41.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/18/2014 11:18:25 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray W., I agree, Denise's track looked interesting, though I wonder how much of it was produced before the company seems to have disappeared. I would like to see or find a sample. Just guessing, possibly the owner of Denise and Co. was drafted or volunteered into the service for World War II. Many firms did not survive the war for one reason or another. I checked Google Street view of their address on the upper East side of Manhattan and there is a more modern building there that is an ASPCA animal hospital. _______________________________________ I thumbed through some of my other 1939 MR's last evening and saw at least one additional track ads earlier in the year and also a few editorial mentions in the short paragraphs trade topics. Unfortunately my collection of early MR's jumps from 1939 to 1943, so I as well cannot report if there are any additional ads or mentions in 1940. W Jay W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23162	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/18/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...

Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23163	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...

I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23164	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...

Mike,   I'm sure that thought didn't escape Jay when he guessed that the Denise owner may have been drafted or volunteered into the Service; it didn't escape me.  Good chance that the Denise company owner enlisted in the Service for the duration and may not have returned from the theater he was deployed to.  We know that very little (if any) metals could be used for hobby manufacturing during the War, although if a manufacturer thought enough of his product to market it before the War, one would think he'd want to resume it after (if) he returned.  But then, any number of things could have changed in the interum, including his getting married when he returned and going on a different venture, or just running out of money to get reestablished.  The HO T&HS SIG group used to do histories on the early manufacturers, but I don't know if they did anything on such an obscure company that so little was known about, or its owner.   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/19/2014 3:31:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23165	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Jay,   Out of curiosity, where did you come across the information that Jim's box cab style bodies were all made of etched brass, since Lenahan didn't state it?  With Jim saying that his model appears to be made of sand castings and with Denise clearly advertising that their later GN Electric was bronze castings, the possibility seems strong that Jim has a Denise Y-1.  Perhaps Denise's first version was etched heavy sheet brass, which was never stated in their early ads, so you may be partially right, but your source would be helpful to know if it has substance.   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/16/2014 10:46:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Jim W., Very interesting, would love to see a photograph of it. Though in reading Lenahan's yesterday, I also noticed that Trackside Specialties, your dad apparently made three pieces of the PRR version, the FF-2 electric locomotive, and it does not indicate whether it was cast bronze or etched brass sheet stock. There might be several ways of making a conclusive identification, based upon information we have or can obtain. First, we know from Lenahan's that Denise's Great Northern Y-1 was made of cast bronze and made in 1/8 inch scale, not the slightly larger HO 3.5mm to the foot. If we find a scale drawing of the Y-1, we will know the length of the boxcab-style body and then measuring your model's boxcab-style body, see if it checks out to that dimension in 1/8 or 3.5 mm scale. Obviously if it's Denise model it should also have the side door each side. So, if it is cast bronze, has the side door and scales out to prototypical length in 1/8&qu ot; scale it would the rare 1939 Denise model powered by the later Penn-Line mechanism, which your dad had plenty of! If your model's box-cab style body scales out to 3.5 mm to the foot and lacks the side door it is likely one of your dad's very rare Trackside Specialties models. In addition and as far as I know, your dad's box cab style bodies were all made of etched brass, so if your model was constructed of even heavier pieces of etched brass and lacks the side door, that would be additional confirmation of Trackside Specialties heritage. The best part is in either case, at least in my humble opinion, you likely have one of the rarest locomotives ever manufactured in HO scale! W.Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23166	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Good morning Ray W., AH! I believe I meant to say that Jim W's "father's" box cab models, meaning the Trackside Specialties models of PRR electric locomotives, were made of etched brass body parts. I will go back and recheck what I wrote previously later this afternoon. I must do a better job of proofreading my posts to avoid giving any misconception! (For those unfamiliar with their construction, the construction of a Trackside Specialties PRR box-cab electric locomotive consisted of a"wrapper" of side-roof-side formed into a "U" shape and soldered to cast lost wax ends.) _______________________________________ You brought up another excellent point – that Denise did not indicate in the early ads what material his first advertised Y-1 was constructed of, the one he was able to improve 200% upon. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23167	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Jay,   In going back through all the messages in this thread, looking for some small bit of info that I could have missed in pinning this down further, I believe I may have misread the message of yours this time around, that I had a question about.  In going back there just now, I can only find your mention of etched sides in reference to Jim's dad's Trackside Specialties models, so I'm not sure what I thought I was looking at.  Please disregard my previous post.  This mystery is starting to become taxing, although it's odd that Denise never mentioned what their 1939 model was made of.  They seemed proud enough to state the 1940 version was cast bronze, and "statuary bronze" at that.  Having the complete library of Spanagel's "Reporting Mark," I'm going to try to look for anything there that may have been written on Denise, but I won't be too surprised if I come up empty.   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/19/2014 9:38:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Good morning Ray W., AH! I believe I meant to say that Jim W's "father's" box cab models, meaning the Trackside Specialties models of PRR electric locomotives, were made of etched brass body parts. I will go back and recheck what I wrote previously later this afternoon. I must do a better job of proofreading my posts to avoid giving any misconception! (For those unfamiliar with their construction, the construction of a Trackside Specialties PRR box-cab electric locomotive consisted of a"wrapper" of side-roof-side formed into a "U" shape and soldered to cast lost wax ends.) _______________________________________ You brought up another excellent point – that Denise did not indicate in the early ads what material his first advertised Y-1 was constructed of, the one he was able to improve 200% upon. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23168	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locom

Thanks Ray, Can you point me to this T&HS Sig group? I have been wondering what happened to the Exacta company and its unique manufacturing method of detailed molded copper model RR car kits. Perhaps they know what happened to those folks? I've not seen the tech used elsewhere and it doesn't seem to have re-emerged in our model railroad items since the company vanished around 1940. Their method was flexible enough that they were able to make small runs of custom model. I was surprised to obtain a trolley kit marketed by Paul Moore that has custom sides made from the Exacta method. I had no idea that Paul had sold kits using that tech. His tech was almost exclusively hand-cut card sides and ends until he later mode'ed some Walthers coach kits into South Shore and moved to cast ends for many of his kits. It has very similar levels of detailing to a die-cast plastic model, and hints at needing much less tooling. It has the detailing we are striving for in todays 3d printed models, with much better material stability. I've not seen the like done anywhere else, for anything. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 19, 2014, at 6:44 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > > I'm sure that thought didn't escape Jay when he guessed that the Denise owner may have been drafted or volunteered into the Service; it didn't escape me. Good chance that the Denise company owner enlisted in the Service for the duration and may not have returned from the theater he was deployed to. We know that very little (if any) metals could be used for hobby manufacturing during the War, although if a manufacturer thought enough of his product to market it before the War, one would think he'd want to resume it after (if) he returned. But then, any number of things could have changed in the interum, including his getting married when he returned and going on a different venture, or just running out of money to get reestablished. The HO T&HS SIG group used to do histories on the early manufacturers, but I don't know if they did anything on such an obscure company that so little was known about, or its owner. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 9/19/2014 3:31:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? > > Best to ya... > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi, USA > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23169	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: "Denise" GN-Y-1, not NYC P-2, topic was MEW NYC T-1 Elect...

Ray W.,  Thanks, Unfortunately do not have the "Reporting Mark" in my library, by the time I found out it amend the SIG existed, it was too late. No need to rush it, though. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23170	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit

Attachments : Hi All, Mike B. has just shown us another of his interesting Paul Moore (of Adrian, Mich.) kits and thought I would show one that I found hidden on eBay several months ago, (not listed as Paul Moore, even though the kit box was plainly marked).   Moore had a series of six different models, intended to be powered by the ever-present Athearn Hustler chassis, his models known collectively as "Little Scoots" and this one is not an interurban or trolley box-motor, but a free-lance Box Cab Electric Locomotive equipped with both pantograph and trolley pole.  My kit is missing the instructions and presumably one of two embossed aluminum side vent panels and one of the easily replaced ladder steps.  Pantograph and trolley pole, as well as Hustler chassis to be added by modeler ( the catalog sheet, courtesy of hoseeker.org).  When I first began getting MR in the mid 1960's I would always see his 1" or so ads, without fail in every issue. Anyone else have this or another "Little Scoot, assembled or not?  W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23171	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit

That's pretty darn cool W. Jay W.!  Although not the same, I picked up three small similar all die cast New Haven interurban street car kits a few months ago as well. They came sealed in clear plastic baggies. The manufacturer was someone over in Connecticut. If I have time, maybe I'll post some pictures as a new topic.     Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: Vintage HO Group <vintageho@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2014 2:23 PM Subject: [vintageHO] A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit   Hi All, Mike B. has just shown us another of his interesting Paul Moore (of Adrian, Mich.) kits and thought I would show one that I found hidden on eBay several months ago, (not listed as Paul Moore, even though the kit box was plainly marked).   Moore had a series of six different models, intended to be powered by the ever-present Athearn Hustler chassis, his models known collectively as "Little Scoots" and this one is not an interurban or trolley box-motor, but a free-lance Box Cab Electric Locomotive equipped with both pantograph and trolley pole.  My kit is missing the instructions and presumably one of two embossed aluminum side vent panels and one of the easily replaced ladder steps.  Pantograph and trolley pole, as well as Hustler chassis to be added by modeler ( the catalog sheet, courtesy of hoseeker.org).  When I first began getting MR in the mid 1960's I would always see his 1" or so ads, without fail in every issue. Anyone else have this or another "Little Scoot, assembled or not?  W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23172	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: E & H Traction Co.

Attachments : TARS Box Car 2.jpg TARS Box Car 1.jpg TARS 821, David Pirman Collection, nycsubway.org.jpg Hi Sean and., and All, Over the years, I have picked up several intriguing E&H Traction Company, (East Haven, Connecticut) white metal kits. (The firm is not to be confused with the famous E and H Hobbies.) _____________________________________ One kit is about the same overall size as the Walthers Birney safety car single truck trolley which was first introduced in 1939 and available in some fashion through the 1980s. The E & H kit accurately represents a Bay State Railway box motor which was saved by the Kennebunkport Maine Museum and operates as a line car today. The roof itself seems to be copied from the Walther's Safety Car kit roof. ______________________________________ Another two kits I found are for a two truck Birney trolley, from which one can plainly see that the masters were made from two Walthers Birney car sides and roof, spliced together. So both cars are a partial copy of the original Walthers kit and fitting for a vintage HO collection on that merit alone. My most recent E & H Traction Co. find is described in detail below. ______________________________________ The two attached photos show a partially assembled HO scale E&H Traction Co. cast white metal kit for a Third Avenue Railways streetcar/trolley, 710-850 series, sometimes referred to as 'Box Cars,' this is presumably due to their wood construction by Brill, circa 1908. Prototype photographs may be found at NYC subway.org on the New York City Third Avenue railway page, the one attached is from the David Pierman collection there.. I found the model on eBay, sold along with good quality imported powered and trailing truck, two Suydam trolley poles and original brief instructions. _____________________________________ The distinctive "5-window" extended cab enclosure was not part of the car's original configuration, being a less than elegant modification of the original open cabs, allowing for operation with the original controls which extended outward beyond the lower dashboard when the car platforms were later enclosed. One car, TARS #830, is preserved at the Branford, CT Museum. ______________________________________ E&H Traction Co. was a small manufacturer located in East Haven, CT who produced a line of about twenty cast white metal traction kits and best as I can determine, has been out of operation for quite a while. Curiously, as noted above, E&H seems to have borrowed parts of other commercial models in preparation of their masters. On the TARS model pictured here, the sides between the doors and a similar section of the roof were copied from the Pennsylvania Scale Models – later Bowser die-cast metal Brill trolley. I don't know if any of the firms whose products were copied gave permission to E&H. ______________________________________ The center deck roof, sides, end cabs, cab roofs and floor/chassis are all separate castings, and in my example, are loosely held together by regular glue, so I plan to strip off the green paint and reassemble and repaint in TARS colors. ------------------------------------------------- A relatively obscure firm with interesting models, they rarely come up on eBay. Can anyone add to the firm's history? Will be interested in seeing your models Sean. W. Jay W.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23173	From: Howard R Garner	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electric Locomotive [2 Attach...

> I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? Does anyone have access to NYC City Directories to find out exactly WHO R D Denise was? Was this a business or residential address at this time. With a full name we might be able to trace him further. Howard Garner --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23174	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: "Denise" GN-Y-1, yeah I think I have one

So guys, after seeing the ads, it’s not the pictures that clinched it for me, because they are of the prototype. But it’s the description of the kit: you can assemble the structure with one set of screws, all the same size – mine is assembled with a set of flat head 2-56 screws (you can see if you look carefully on the side view). It measures out to 1/8” to the foot scale, and is of the type of construction typical of late 30’s models, multiple sand cast pieces. Tney claim little or no soldering, and that’s true for the cab structure, the tanks and tubing on top are soldered in though.   The one thing I did not do is to take the Penn Line GG1 frame off the Y-1 cab to look for identifying marks, I’ll do that and report back.   If anyone ever hears of another one, please take a picture and let me know. Will be great to verify that my Y-1 is the real ‘Denise’.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23175	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri...

Mike,   The HO T&HS was a Special Interest Group (SIG) of the NMRA.  It was started by Dave Spanagel, the author of the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains.  Many of us collectors, operators of early H0 and contributors to the Varney and Athearn Guides also contributed to this group's publication -- "The Reporting Mark -- including Jim Heckard, Russ Shiel and myself (Russ is a member here, from Australia. although he hasn't posted in a while).  I'm approximating that the SIG was in existence for about 15 or so years, but is now defunct.  We covered a lot of vintage territory back then though, including early H0 trolley car manufacturers.  Sorry to have to tell you that it's no longer around, especially as it was a tremendous wealth of information.  BTW, Central Lines Mfg. Co, ("Exacta") was still producing model kits into the 1950's.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/19/2014 1:12:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Thanks Ray, Can you point me to this T&HS Sig group? I have been wondering what happened to the Exacta company and its unique manufacturing method of detailed molded copper model RR car kits. Perhaps they know what happened to those folks? I've not seen the tech used elsewhere and it doesn't seem to have re-emerged in our model railroad items since the company vanished around 1940. Their method was flexible enough that they were able to make small runs of custom model. I was surprised to obtain a trolley kit marketed by Paul Moore that has custom sides made from the Exacta method. I had no idea that Paul had sold kits using that tech. His tech was almost exclusively hand-cut card sides and ends until he later mode'ed some Walthers coach kits into South Shore and moved to cast ends for many of his kits. It has very similar levels of detailing to a die-cast plastic model, and hints at needing much less tooling. It has the detailing we are striving for in todays 3d printed models, with much better material stability. I've not seen the like done anywhere else, for anything. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 19, 2014, at 6:44 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > > I'm sure that thought didn't escape Jay when he guessed that the Denise owner may have been drafted or volunteered into the Service; it didn't escape me. Good chance that the Denise company owner enlisted in the Service for the duration and may not have returned from the theater he was deployed to. We know that very little (if any) metals could be used for hobby manufacturing during the War, although if a manufacturer thought enough of his product to market it before the War, one would think he'd want to resume it after (if) he returned. But then, any number of things could have changed in the interum, including his getting married when he returned and going on a different venture, or just running out of money to get reestablished. The HO T&HS SIG group used to do histories on the early manufacturers, but I don't know if they did anything on such an obscure company that so little was known about, or its owner. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 9/19/2014 3:31:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? > > Best to ya... > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi, USA > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23176	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/19/2014
Subject: Re: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri...

H'lo all...with apologies, I should have been contributing to the back and forth on the mystery Y-1, but have been labouring under reporting deadlines with anxious clients beating at my (virtual) door...work interfering with hobby time...t'was ever thus! So yes, Ray, am still here, and avidly following the group sleuthing when time permits. I have all good intentions of sifting through The Reporting Mark every time a manufacturer or historical question comes up....but it takes time...I have only the V1-15 index as issued by Dave when TRM was in production...I came in late, offered to put together an electronic index of V16-24, but was overtaken by a retrenchment, 1000 km relocation, setting up as a consultant, earning a living...and hobby time suffered. As Ray pointed out, there is an enormous amount of historical information in extant issues of The Reporting Mark. It would be a valuable resource if accessible on a site such as HOSeeker. Is anyone in contact with Dave Spanagel, or know if he is still active in the hobby? He holds the copyright of TRM and would have to authorize it's accessibility. Cheers, skulking in the background Russ On Saturday, 20 September 2014, 9:24, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Mike,   The HO T&HS was a Special Interest Group (SIG) of the NMRA.  It was started by Dave Spanagel, the author of the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains.  Many of us collectors, operators of early H0 and contributors to the Varney and Athearn Guides also contributed to this group's publication -- "The Reporting Mark -- including Jim Heckard, Russ Shiel and myself (Russ is a member here, from Australia. although he hasn't posted in a while).  I'm approximating that the SIG was in existence for about 15 or so years, but is now defunct.  We covered a lot of vintage territory back then though, including early H0 trolley car manufacturers.  Sorry to have to tell you that it's no longer around, especially as it was a tremendous wealth of information.  BTW, Central Lines Mfg. Co, ("Exacta") was still producing model kits into the 1950's.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/19/2014 1:12:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Thanks Ray, Can you point me to this T&HS Sig group? I have been wondering what happened to the Exacta company and its unique manufacturing method of detailed molded copper model RR car kits. Perhaps they know what happened to those folks? I've not seen the tech used elsewhere and it doesn't seem to have re-emerged in our model railroad items since the company vanished around 1940. Their method was flexible enough that they were able to make small runs of custom model. I was surprised to obtain a trolley kit marketed by Paul Moore that has custom sides made from the Exacta method. I had no idea that Paul had sold kits using that tech. His tech was almost exclusively hand-cut card sides and ends until he later mode'ed some Walthers coach kits into South Shore and moved to cast ends for many of his kits. It has very similar levels of detailing to a die-cast plastic model, and hints at needing much less tooling. It has the detailing we are striving for in todays 3d printed models, with much better material stability. I've not seen the like done anywhere else, for anything. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 19, 2014, at 6:44 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > > I'm sure that thought didn't escape Jay when he guessed that the Denise owner may have been drafted or volunteered into the Service; it didn't escape me. Good chance that the Denise company owner enlisted in the Service for the duration and may not have returned from the theater he was deployed to. We know that very little (if any) metals could be used for hobby manufacturing during the War, although if a manufacturer thought enough of his product to market it before the War, one would think he'd want to resume it after (if) he returned. But then, any number of things could have changed in the interum, including his getting married when he returned and going on a different venture, or just running out of money to get reestablished. The HO T&HS SIG group used to do histories on the early manufacturers, but I don't know if they did anything on such an obscure company that so little was known about, or its owner. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 9/19/2014 3:31:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? > > Best to ya... > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi, USA > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23177	From: ajfergusonca	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit

Yep: 40 odd years ago I built a little Gas-electric kit onto a Hustler chassis. Preassembled cardstock sides metal ends wood roof. Not a rivet in sight. Provided my passenger service for several years. If only I could have slowed it down a little I would still be using it.  Allen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23178	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri...

G'Day Russ,   Good to hear from you after all this while.  I thought perhaps you were still very much a member here and fortunately I see I was right.  I'm glad to see you once more participating here and even more pleased to see your offer of help in digging through the content of Spanagel's "The Reporting Mark" publications, not only to seek out additional info on Denise but to find more out about Central Lines Mfg. Co.     While I was able to come up with my early Model Railroader magazines in much shorter time than I ever expected, I find that I'm unable to locate my TRM info source as easily, even though I know it's here somewhere.  Your help in this would be of great assistance and just as greatly appreciated if you could take whatever spare time you may have to dig in to the two topics at hand.    I haven't seen word of Dave now in a good number of years.  Putting "The Reporting Mark" on a venue such as Larry Stevenson's HO Seeker would be an immense help as a ready source of information on exactly the same vintage models that we all own and operate, even though I realize that when Dave offered memberships (with annual dues) in the SIG, that he intended all this information be retained and accessed only through joining that group.  As that group's time has come and gone, it would be a colossal loss if this enormous source of information were not made available now to that sector of the hobby that would benefit most from it.  After all, TRM was a compilation of info by many of that day's top modelers and vintage collectors, even though it was well past John Allan's time.        Regards,   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/19/2014 9:59:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   H'lo all...with apologies, I should have been contributing to the back and forth on the mystery Y-1, but have been labouring under reporting deadlines with anxious clients beating at my (virtual) door...work interfering with hobby time...t'was ever thus! So yes, Ray, am still here, and avidly following the group sleuthing when time permits. I have all good intentions of sifting through The Reporting Mark every time a manufacturer or historical question comes up....but it takes time...I have only the V1-15 index as issued by Dave when TRM was in production...I came in late, offered to put together an electronic index of V16-24, but was overtaken by a retrenchment, 1000 km relocation, setting up as a consultant, earning a living...and hobby time suffered. As Ray pointed out, there is an enormous amount of historical information in extant issues of The Reporting Mark. It would be a valuable resource if accessible on a site such as HOSeeker. Is anyone in contact with Dave Spanagel, or know if he is still active in the hobby? He holds the copyright of TRM and would have to authorize it's accessibility. Cheers, skulking in the background Russ On Saturday, 20 September 2014, 9:24, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Mike,   The HO T&HS was a Special Interest Group (SIG) of the NMRA.  It was started by Dave Spanagel, the author of the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains.  Many of us collectors, operators of early H0 and contributors to the Varney and Athearn Guides also contributed to this group's publication -- "The Reporting Mark -- including Jim Heckard, Russ Shiel and myself (Russ is a member here, from Australia. although he hasn't posted in a while).  I'm approximating that the SIG was in existence for about 15 or so years, but is now defunct.  We covered a lot of vintage territory back then though, including early H0 trolley car manufacturers.  Sorry to have to tell you that it's no longer around, especially as it was a tremendous wealth of information.  BTW, Central Lines Mfg. Co, ("Exacta") was still producing model kits into the 1950's.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/19/2014 1:12:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Thanks Ray, Can you point me to this T&HS Sig group? I have been wondering what happened to the Exacta company and its unique manufacturing method of detailed molded copper model RR car kits. Perhaps they know what happened to those folks? I've not seen the tech used elsewhere and it doesn't seem to have re-emerged in our model railroad items since the company vanished around 1940. Their method was flexible enough that they were able to make small runs of custom model. I was surprised to obtain a trolley kit marketed by Paul Moore that has custom sides made from the Exacta method. I had no idea that Paul had sold kits using that tech. His tech was almost exclusively hand-cut card sides and ends until he later mode'ed some Walthers coach kits into South Shore and moved to cast ends for many of his kits. It has very similar levels of detailing to a die-cast plastic model, and hints at needing much less tooling. It has the detailing we are striving for in todays 3d printed models, with much better material stability. I've not seen the like done anywhere else, for anything. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 19, 2014, at 6:44 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > > I'm sure that thought didn't escape Jay when he guessed that the Denise owner may have been drafted or volunteered into the Service; it didn't escape me. Good chance that the Denise company owner enlisted in the Service for the duration and may not have returned from the theater he was deployed to. We know that very little (if any) metals could be used for hobby manufacturing during the War, although if a manufacturer thought enough of his product to market it before the War, one would think he'd want to resume it after (if) he returned. But then, any number of things could have changed in the interum, including his getting married when he returned and going on a different venture, or just running out of money to get reestablished. The HO T&HS SIG group used to do histories on the early manufacturers, but I don't know if they did anything on such an obscure company that so little was known about, or its owner. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 9/19/2014 3:31:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? > > Best to ya... > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi, USA > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23179	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: E & H Traction Co. [3 Attachments]

On 9/19/2014 3:46 PM, Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Hi Sean and., and All, Over the years, I have picked up several intriguing E&H Traction Company, (East Haven, Connecticut) white metal kits. (The firm is not to be confused with the famous E and H Hobbies.) _____________________________________ One kit is about the same overall size as the Walthers Birney safety car single truck trolley which was first introduced in 1939 and available in some fashion through the 1980s. The E & H kit accurately represents a Bay State Railway box motor which was saved by the Kennebunkport Maine Museum and operates as a line car today. The roof itself seems to be copied from the Walther's Safety Car kit roof. ______________________________________ Another two kits I found are for a two truck Birney trolley, from which one can plainly see that the masters were made from two Walthers Birney car sides and roof, spliced together. So both cars are a partial copy of the original Walthers kit and fitting for a vintage HO collection on that merit alone. My most recent E & H Traction Co. find is described in detail below. ______________________________________ The two attached photos show a partially assembled HO scale E&H Traction Co. cast white metal kit for a Third Avenue Railways streetcar/trolley, 710-850 series, sometimes referred to as 'Box Cars,' this is presumably due to their wood construction by Brill, circa 1908. Prototype photographs may be found at NYC subway.org on the New York City Third Avenue railway page, the one attached is from the David Pierman collection there.. I found the model on eBay, sold along with good quality imported powered and trailing truck, two Suydam trolley poles and original brief instructions. _____________________________________ The distinctive "5-window" extended cab enclosure was not part of the car's original configuration, being a less than elegant modification of the original open cabs, allowing for operation with the original controls which extended outward beyond the lower dashboard when the car platforms were later enclosed. One car, TARS #830, is preserved at the Branford, CT Museum. ______________________________________ E&H Traction Co. was a small manufacturer located in East Haven, CT who produced a line of about twenty cast white metal traction kits and best as I can determine, has been out of operation for quite a while. Curiously, as noted above, E&H seems to have borrowed parts of other commercial models in preparation of their masters. On the TARS model pictured here, the sides between the doors and a similar section of the roof were copied from the Pennsylvania Scale Models – later Bowser die-cast metal Brill trolley. I don't know if any of the firms whose products were copied gave permission to E&H. ______________________________________ The center deck roof, sides, end cabs, cab roofs and floor/chassis are all separate castings, and in my example, are loosely held together by regular glue, so I plan to strip off the green paint and reassemble and repaint in TARS colors. ------------------------------------------------- A relatively obscure firm with interesting models, they rarely come up on eBay. Can anyone add to the firm's history? Will be interested in seeing your models Sean. W. Jay W. That floor and those power trucks look exactly like current Bachman Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23180	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit

From what I have seen of Paul's work, as well as his drawings in full HO and in his catalog sheets and blueprints....... I'm certain that with today's urethane rivet decals (or the forgotten MR published 'Mini-Riveter' of about 1970) and the recent $600 low power laser cutter paired up together; Paul's designs can be reborn at the level of today's laser cut kits with the depth of detail of a LaBelle wood kit done in high grade card stock. This would look like a plastic sheet built model with the addition of rivets making it look like a injected plastic model once completed. The best reason for going laser or other machine cut on Paul's designs is that the window and doors lines will be uniform and straight, except for the curved or arched doors and windows that will also be uniform and perfect compared to hand-cut efforts. The most boring part of going this way is gradually building a library of the needed cutouts in the computer. That will allow one to stamp out full cars on the computer screen and then have the tool cut them out. You need to double the number of layers that Paul used in his construction to get today's increased depth of detail needed for today's more prototypical models.  Paul's designs are up to it, you increase the number of layers to reflect the needed window sills and framing of doors to better reflect the prototype construction. The flat plane design stays the same, the components gain some complexity and greater depth in the process. A simple jig can line everything up during assembly of the sides and ends. You can decide during construction if a car is to be a wood-sided or riveted look. With the window shopping I did in Shapeways yesterday to see $130 HO trolley shells and much the same for the needed floor, details and misc needed to complete even a static model, I think well designed art-card models of much lower cost will better serve our hobby. Paul did interesting passenger cars as well as his trolleys and gasser. As we run low on available vintage model stock, we can continue to make fresh these vintage designs. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Sep 19, 2014, at 2:17 PM, "ajfergus@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Yep: 40 odd years ago I built a little Gas-electric kit onto a Hustler chassis. Preassembled cardstock sides metal ends wood roof. Not a rivet in sight. Provided my passenger service for several years. If only I could have slowed it down a little I would still be using it.  Allen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23181	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: A Paul Moore "Little Scoot" Box-cab Electric Locomotive Kit

Theres a nice Bachmann or Lifelike MTD (?) Plymouth switcher that is a similar but modern drive version of the Hustler. It's very near the same size and is a great substitute for the old Hustlers. It's the best hope for a rebirth of the Little Scoots. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Sep 19, 2014, at 2:17 PM, "ajfergus@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Yep: 40 odd years ago I built a little Gas-electric kit onto a Hustler chassis. Preassembled cardstock sides metal ends wood roof. Not a rivet in sight. Provided my passenger service for several years. If only I could have slowed it down a little I would still be using it.  Allen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23182	From: Dave Robison	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri...

Count me in as one more person interested in learning about the Exacta process and especially about Central Lines Mfg., which seems to have been based in my hometown of Los Gatos, California (although I gather they may have been out of business before I was born!). I'm new to this group and much of what you guys are talking about is over my head or way beyond the scope of my tiny collection, but fascinating to read about nonetheless, and it's great to see that there are folks discovering (or rediscovering) and preserving both the history and the models themselves. Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 9/20/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 20, 2014, 2:47 AM G'Day Russ,   Good to hear from you after all this while.  I thought perhaps you were still very much a member here and fortunately I see I was right.  I'm glad to see you once more participating here and even more pleased to see your offer of help in digging through the content of Spanagel's "The Reporting Mark" publications, not only to seek out additional info on Denise but to find more out about Central Lines Mfg. Co.     While I was able to come up with my early Model Railroader magazines in much shorter time than I ever expected, I find that I'm unable to locate my TRM info source as easily, even though I know it's here somewhere.  Your help in this would be of great assistance and just as greatly appreciated if you could take whatever spare time you may have to dig in to the two topics at hand.    I haven't seen word of Dave now in a good number of years.  Putting "The Reporting Mark" on a venue such as Larry Stevenson's HO Seeker would be an immense help as a ready source of information on exactly the same vintage models that we all own and operate, even though I realize that when Dave offered memberships (with annual dues) in the SIG, that he intended all this information be retained and accessed only through joining that group.  As that group's time has come and gone, it would be a colossal loss if this enormous source of information were not made available now to that sector of the hobby that would benefit most from it.  After all, TRM was a compilation of info by many of that day's top modelers and vintage collectors, even though it was well past John Allan's time.        Regards,   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/19/2014 9:59:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   H'lo all...with apologies, I should have been contributing to the back and forth on the mystery Y-1, but have been labouring under reporting deadlines with anxious clients beating at my (virtual) door...work interfering with hobby time...t'was ever thus! So yes, Ray, am still here, and avidly following the group sleuthing when time permits. I have all good intentions of sifting through The Reporting Mark every time a manufacturer or historical question comes up....but it takes time...I have only the V1-15 index as issued by Dave when TRM was in production...I came in late, offered to put together an electronic index of V16-24, but was overtaken by a retrenchment, 1000 km relocation, setting up as a consultant, earning a living...and hobby time suffered. As Ray pointed out, there is an enormous amount of historical information in extant issues of The Reporting Mark. It would be a valuable resource if accessible on a site such as HOSeeker. Is anyone in contact with Dave Spanagel, or know if he is still active in the hobby? He holds the copyright of TRM and would have to authorize it's accessibility. Cheers, skulking in the background Russ On Saturday, 20 September 2014, 9:24, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Mike,   The HO T&HS was a Special Interest Group (SIG) of the NMRA.  It was started by Dave Spanagel, the author of the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains.  Many of us collectors, operators of early H0 and contributors to the Varney and Athearn Guides also contributed to this group's publication -- "The Reporting Mark -- including Jim Heckard, Russ Shiel and myself (Russ is a member here, from Australia. although he hasn't posted in a while).  I'm approximating that the SIG was in existence for about 15 or so years, but is now defunct.  We covered a lot of vintage territory back then though, including early H0 trolley car manufacturers.  Sorry to have to tell you that it's no longer around, especially as it was a tremendous wealth of information.  BTW, Central Lines Mfg. Co, ("Exacta") was still producing model kits into the 1950's.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/19/2014 1:12:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Thanks Ray, Can you point me to this T&HS Sig group? I have been wondering what happened to the Exacta company and its unique manufacturing method of detailed molded copper model RR car kits. Perhaps they know what happened to those folks? I've not seen the tech used elsewhere and it doesn't seem to have re-emerged in our model railroad items since the company vanished around 1940. Their method was flexible enough that they were able to make small runs of custom model. I was surprised to obtain a trolley kit marketed by Paul Moore that has custom sides made from the Exacta method. I had no idea that Paul had sold kits using that tech. His tech was almost exclusively hand-cut card sides and ends until he later mode'ed some Walthers coach kits into South Shore and moved to cast ends for many of his kits. It has very similar levels of detailing to a die-cast plastic model, and hints at needing much less tooling. It has the detailing we are striving for in todays 3d printed models, with much better material stability. I've not seen the like done anywhere else, for anything. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 19, 2014, at 6:44 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > > I'm sure that thought didn't escape Jay when he guessed that the Denise owner may have been drafted or volunteered into the Service; it didn't escape me. Good chance that the Denise company owner enlisted in the Service for the duration and may not have returned from the theater he was deployed to. We know that very little (if any) metals could be used for hobby manufacturing during the War, although if a manufacturer thought enough of his product to market it before the War, one would think he'd want to resume it after (if) he returned. But then, any number of things could have changed in the interum, including his getting married when he returned and going on a different venture, or just running out of money to get reestablished. The HO T&HS SIG group used to do histories on the early manufacturers, but I don't know if they did anything on such an obscure company that so little was known about, or its owner. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 9/19/2014 3:31:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? > > Best to ya... > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi, USA > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23183	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

lucky find Bought today at an exhibition - very good condition and ran reasonably well. I was unsure of actually how old it was until I found this ref on the net http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/Riva_Loco_Italiane/Riva_Automot_Elett_2002%20FNM.htm RogerW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23184	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Yes,very nice find.  When I first saw Milano (Italy) in your link, I knew this was vintage.  Many of us are more familiar with Rivarossi made in Yugoslavia (in the 1970's) as imported under AHM (Associated Hobby Manufacturers, Inc.).  Best of luck with it.   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/20/2014 4:50:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   lucky find Bought today at an exhibition - very good condition and ran reasonably well. I was unsure of actually how old it was until I found this ref on the net http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/Riva_Loco_Italiane/Riva_Automot_Elett_2002%20FNM.htm RogerW

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23185	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta/Central Lines Mfg. mystery

There's some info on this manufacturer right now, up on HO Seeker < HOseeker.net >, although there's nothing on the history of this company (Central Lines) or the copper - nickel-plating process.  Just go up to the site and click on "Literature" and then scroll down on that page to Exacta.  As you're new to this group, you'll probably find lots more stuff of interest there.  For that matter, just go into the different files on this List to see some of the info we accumulated.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 9/20/2014 4:50:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Count me in as one more person interested in learning about the Exacta process and especially about Central Lines Mfg., which seems to have been based in my hometown of Los Gatos, California (although I gather they may have been out of business before I was born!). I'm new to this group and much of what you guys are talking about is over my head or way beyond the scope of my tiny collection, but fascinating to read about nonetheless, and it's great to see that there are folks discovering (or rediscovering) and preserving both the history and the models themselves. Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 9/20/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 20, 2014, 2:47 AM G'Day Russ,   Good to hear from you after all this while.  I thought perhaps you were still very much a member here and fortunately I see I was right.  I'm glad to see you once more participating here and even more pleased to see your offer of help in digging through the content of Spanagel's "The Reporting Mark" publications, not only to seek out additional info on Denise but to find more out about Central Lines Mfg. Co.     While I was able to come up with my early Model Railroader magazines in much shorter time than I ever expected, I find that I'm unable to locate my TRM info source as easily, even though I know it's here somewhere.  Your help in this would be of great assistance and just as greatly appreciated if you could take whatever spare time you may have to dig in to the two topics at hand.    I haven't seen word of Dave now in a good number of years.  Putting "The Reporting Mark" on a venue such as Larry Stevenson's HO Seeker would be an immense help as a ready source of information on exactly the same vintage models that we all own and operate, even though I realize that when Dave offered memberships (with annual dues) in the SIG, that he intended all this information be retained and accessed only through joining that group.  As that group's time has come and gone, it would be a colossal loss if this enormous source of information were not made available now to that sector of the hobby that would benefit most from it.  After all, TRM was a compilation of info by many of that day's top modelers and vintage collectors, even though it was well past John Allan's time.        Regards,   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/19/2014 9:59:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   H'lo all...with apologies, I should have been contributing to the back and forth on the mystery Y-1, but have been labouring under reporting deadlines with anxious clients beating at my (virtual) door...work interfering with hobby time...t'was ever thus! So yes, Ray, am still here, and avidly following the group sleuthing when time permits. I have all good intentions of sifting through The Reporting Mark every time a manufacturer or historical question comes up....but it takes time...I have only the V1-15 index as issued by Dave when TRM was in production...I came in late, offered to put together an electronic index of V16-24, but was overtaken by a retrenchment, 1000 km relocation, setting up as a consultant, earning a living...and hobby time suffered. As Ray pointed out, there is an enormous amount of historical information in extant issues of The Reporting Mark. It would be a valuable resource if accessible on a site such as HOSeeker. Is anyone in contact with Dave Spanagel, or know if he is still active in the hobby? He holds the copyright of TRM and would have to authorize it's accessibility. Cheers, skulking in the background Russ On Saturday, 20 September 2014, 9:24, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Mike,   The HO T&HS was a Special Interest Group (SIG) of the NMRA.  It was started by Dave Spanagel, the author of the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains.  Many of us collectors, operators of early H0 and contributors to the Varney and Athearn Guides also contributed to this group's publication -- "The Reporting Mark -- including Jim Heckard, Russ Shiel and myself (Russ is a member here, from Australia. although he hasn't posted in a while).  I'm approximating that the SIG was in existence for about 15 or so years, but is now defunct.  We covered a lot of vintage territory back then though, including early H0 trolley car manufacturers.  Sorry to have to tell you that it's no longer around, especially as it was a tremendous wealth of information.  BTW, Central Lines Mfg. Co, ("Exacta") was still producing model kits into the 1950's.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/19/2014 1:12:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Thanks Ray, Can you point me to this T&HS Sig group? I have been wondering what happened to the Exacta company and its unique manufacturing method of detailed molded copper model RR car kits. Perhaps they know what happened to those folks? I've not seen the tech used elsewhere and it doesn't seem to have re-emerged in our model railroad items since the company vanished around 1940. Their method was flexible enough that they were able to make small runs of custom model. I was surprised to obtain a trolley kit marketed by Paul Moore that has custom sides made from the Exacta method. I had no idea that Paul had sold kits using that tech. His tech was almost exclusively hand-cut card sides and ends until he later mode'ed some Walthers coach kits into South Shore and moved to cast ends for many of his kits. It has very similar levels of detailing to a die-cast plastic model, and hints at needing much less tooling. It has the detailing we are striving for in todays 3d printed models, with much better material stability. I've not seen the like done anywhere else, for anything. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 19, 2014, at 6:44 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > > I'm sure that thought didn't escape Jay when he guessed that the Denise owner may have been drafted or volunteered into the Service; it didn't escape me. Good chance that the Denise company owner enlisted in the Service for the duration and may not have returned from the theater he was deployed to. We know that very little (if any) metals could be used for hobby manufacturing during the War, although if a manufacturer thought enough of his product to market it before the War, one would think he'd want to resume it after (if) he returned. But then, any number of things could have changed in the interum, including his getting married when he returned and going on a different venture, or just running out of money to get reestablished. The HO T&HS SIG group used to do histories on the early manufacturers, but I don't know if they did anything on such an obscure company that so little was known about, or its owner. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 9/19/2014 3:31:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? > > Best to ya... > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi, USA > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23186	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 9/20/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta/Central Lines Mfg. mystery

Attachments : Central Lines.docx re Exacta/Central Lines...I had a quick search of The Reporting Mark V1-15 index...Exacta has half a dozen mentions, including ads and images of their cars. A sample of the content on Central Lines is attached as a Word file...I have made a couple of small editorial corrections copying from a .pdf, but otherwise the text is as written by Graham Harvey (1987). V16-24 may contain more information, but a sift will be required! I hope that small snippets for information of the group, duly acknowledging the efforts of Dave Spanagel to put it all together for 24 yrs, do not infringe copyright! On Sunday, 21 September 2014, 7:18, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   There's some info on this manufacturer right now, up on HO Seeker < HOseeker.net >, although there's nothing on the history of this company (Central Lines) or the copper - nickel-plating process.  Just go up to the site and click on "Literature" and then scroll down on that page to Exacta.  As you're new to this group, you'll probably find lots more stuff of interest there.  For that matter, just go into the different files on this List to see some of the info we accumulated.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 9/20/2014 4:50:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Count me in as one more person interested in learning about the Exacta process and especially about Central Lines Mfg., which seems to have been based in my hometown of Los Gatos, California (although I gather they may have been out of business before I was born!). I'm new to this group and much of what you guys are talking about is over my head or way beyond the scope of my tiny collection, but fascinating to read about nonetheless, and it's great to see that there are folks discovering (or rediscovering) and preserving both the history and the models themselves. Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 9/20/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 20, 2014, 2:47 AM G'Day Russ,   Good to hear from you after all this while.  I thought perhaps you were still very much a member here and fortunately I see I was right.  I'm glad to see you once more participating here and even more pleased to see your offer of help in digging through the content of Spanagel's "The Reporting Mark" publications, not only to seek out additional info on Denise but to find more out about Central Lines Mfg. Co.     While I was able to come up with my early Model Railroader magazines in much shorter time than I ever expected, I find that I'm unable to locate my TRM info source as easily, even though I know it's here somewhere.  Your help in this would be of great assistance and just as greatly appreciated if you could take whatever spare time you may have to dig in to the two topics at hand.    I haven't seen word of Dave now in a good number of years.  Putting "The Reporting Mark" on a venue such as Larry Stevenson's HO Seeker would be an immense help as a ready source of information on exactly the same vintage models that we all own and operate, even though I realize that when Dave offered memberships (with annual dues) in the SIG, that he intended all this information be retained and accessed only through joining that group.  As that group's time has come and gone, it would be a colossal loss if this enormous source of information were not made available now to that sector of the hobby that would benefit most from it.  After all, TRM was a compilation of info by many of that day's top modelers and vintage collectors, even though it was well past John Allan's time.        Regards,   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/19/2014 9:59:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   H'lo all...with apologies, I should have been contributing to the back and forth on the mystery Y-1, but have been labouring under reporting deadlines with anxious clients beating at my (virtual) door...work interfering with hobby time...t'was ever thus! So yes, Ray, am still here, and avidly following the group sleuthing when time permits. I have all good intentions of sifting through The Reporting Mark every time a manufacturer or historical question comes up....but it takes time...I have only the V1-15 index as issued by Dave when TRM was in production...I came in late, offered to put together an electronic index of V16-24, but was overtaken by a retrenchment, 1000 km relocation, setting up as a consultant, earning a living...and hobby time suffered. As Ray pointed out, there is an enormous amount of historical information in extant issues of The Reporting Mark. It would be a valuable resource if accessible on a site such as HOSeeker. Is anyone in contact with Dave Spanagel, or know if he is still active in the hobby? He holds the copyright of TRM and would have to authorize it's accessibility. Cheers, skulking in the background Russ On Saturday, 20 September 2014, 9:24, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Mike,   The HO T&HS was a Special Interest Group (SIG) of the NMRA.  It was started by Dave Spanagel, the author of the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains.  Many of us collectors, operators of early H0 and contributors to the Varney and Athearn Guides also contributed to this group's publication -- "The Reporting Mark -- including Jim Heckard, Russ Shiel and myself (Russ is a member here, from Australia. although he hasn't posted in a while).  I'm approximating that the SIG was in existence for about 15 or so years, but is now defunct.  We covered a lot of vintage territory back then though, including early H0 trolley car manufacturers.  Sorry to have to tell you that it's no longer around, especially as it was a tremendous wealth of information.  BTW, Central Lines Mfg. Co, ("Exacta") was still producing model kits into the 1950's.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/19/2014 1:12:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Thanks Ray, Can you point me to this T&HS Sig group? I have been wondering what happened to the Exacta company and its unique manufacturing method of detailed molded copper model RR car kits. Perhaps they know what happened to those folks? I've not seen the tech used elsewhere and it doesn't seem to have re-emerged in our model railroad items since the company vanished around 1940. Their method was flexible enough that they were able to make small runs of custom model. I was surprised to obtain a trolley kit marketed by Paul Moore that has custom sides made from the Exacta method. I had no idea that Paul had sold kits using that tech. His tech was almost exclusively hand-cut card sides and ends until he later mode'ed some Walthers coach kits into South Shore and moved to cast ends for many of his kits. It has very similar levels of detailing to a die-cast plastic model, and hints at needing much less tooling. It has the detailing we are striving for in todays 3d printed models, with much better material stability. I've not seen the like done anywhere else, for anything. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 19, 2014, at 6:44 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > > I'm sure that thought didn't escape Jay when he guessed that the Denise owner may have been drafted or volunteered into the Service; it didn't escape me. Good chance that the Denise company owner enlisted in the Service for the duration and may not have returned from the theater he was deployed to. We know that very little (if any) metals could be used for hobby manufacturing during the War, although if a manufacturer thought enough of his product to market it before the War, one would think he'd want to resume it after (if) he returned. But then, any number of things could have changed in the interum, including his getting married when he returned and going on a different venture, or just running out of money to get reestablished. The HO T&HS SIG group used to do histories on the early manufacturers, but I don't know if they did anything on such an obscure company that so little was known about, or its owner. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 9/19/2014 3:31:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? > > Best to ya... > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi, USA > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23187	From: Richard White	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta/Central Lines Mfg. mystery

Attachments : 1898 coach.jpg Here's a photo of an Exact 1898 coach that I  have constructed recently. I made a few structural improvements to reinforce the end platforms and car sides. I lettered it for C&NW because that lettering was small enough to fit! Regards- Richard White To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:47:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Exacta/Central Lines Mfg. mystery   There's some info on this manufacturer right now, up on HO Seeker < HOseeker.net >, although there's nothing on the history of this company (Central Lines) or the copper - nickel-plating process.  Just go up to the site and click on "Literature" and then scroll down on that page to Exacta.  As you're new to this group, you'll probably find lots more stuff of interest there.  For that matter, just go into the different files on this List to see some of the info we accumulated.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 9/20/2014 4:50:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Count me in as one more person interested in learning about the Exacta process and especially about Central Lines Mfg., which seems to have been based in my hometown of Los Gatos, California (although I gather they may have been out of business before I was born!). I'm new to this group and much of what you guys are talking about is over my head or way beyond the scope of my tiny collection, but fascinating to read about nonetheless, and it's great to see that there are folks discovering (or rediscovering) and preserving both the history and the models themselves. Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 9/20/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Exatcta mystery ; Re: Denise & Co., 1939 MR Ads. - GN Electri... To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 20, 2014, 2:47 AM G'Day Russ,   Good to hear from you after all this while.  I thought perhaps you were still very much a member here and fortunately I see I was right.  I'm glad to see you once more participating here and even more pleased to see your offer of help in digging through the content of Spanagel's "The Reporting Mark" publications, not only to seek out additional info on Denise but to find more out about Central Lines Mfg. Co.     While I was able to come up with my early Model Railroader magazines in much shorter time than I ever expected, I find that I'm unable to locate my TRM info source as easily, even though I know it's here somewhere.  Your help in this would be of great assistance and just as greatly appreciated if you could take whatever spare time you may have to dig in to the two topics at hand.    I haven't seen word of Dave now in a good number of years.  Putting "The Reporting Mark" on a venue such as Larry Stevenson's HO Seeker would be an immense help as a ready source of information on exactly the same vintage models that we all own and operate, even though I realize that when Dave offered memberships (with annual dues) in the SIG, that he intended all this information be retained and accessed only through joining that group.  As that group's time has come and gone, it would be a colossal loss if this enormous source of information were not made available now to that sector of the hobby that would benefit most from it.  After all, TRM was a compilation of info by many of that day's top modelers and vintage collectors, even though it was well past John Allan's time.        Regards,   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/19/2014 9:59:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   H'lo all...with apologies, I should have been contributing to the back and forth on the mystery Y-1, but have been labouring under reporting deadlines with anxious clients beating at my (virtual) door...work interfering with hobby time...t'was ever thus! So yes, Ray, am still here, and avidly following the group sleuthing when time permits. I have all good intentions of sifting through The Reporting Mark every time a manufacturer or historical question comes up....but it takes time...I have only the V1-15 index as issued by Dave when TRM was in production...I came in late, offered to put together an electronic index of V16-24, but was overtaken by a retrenchment, 1000 km relocation, setting up as a consultant, earning a living...and hobby time suffered. As Ray pointed out, there is an enormous amount of historical information in extant issues of The Reporting Mark. It would be a valuable resource if accessible on a site such as HOSeeker. Is anyone in contact with Dave Spanagel, or know if he is still active in the hobby? He holds the copyright of TRM and would have to authorize it's accessibility. Cheers, skulking in the background Russ On Saturday, 20 September 2014, 9:24, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Mike,   The HO T&HS was a Special Interest Group (SIG) of the NMRA.  It was started by Dave Spanagel, the author of the Greenberg's Guide to Varney Trains.  Many of us collectors, operators of early H0 and contributors to the Varney and Athearn Guides also contributed to this group's publication -- "The Reporting Mark -- including Jim Heckard, Russ Shiel and myself (Russ is a member here, from Australia. although he hasn't posted in a while).  I'm approximating that the SIG was in existence for about 15 or so years, but is now defunct.  We covered a lot of vintage territory back then though, including early H0 trolley car manufacturers.  Sorry to have to tell you that it's no longer around, especially as it was a tremendous wealth of information.  BTW, Central Lines Mfg. Co, ("Exacta") was still producing model kits into the 1950's.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/19/2014 1:12:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Thanks Ray, Can you point me to this T&HS Sig group? I have been wondering what happened to the Exacta company and its unique manufacturing method of detailed molded copper model RR car kits. Perhaps they know what happened to those folks? I've not seen the tech used elsewhere and it doesn't seem to have re-emerged in our model railroad items since the company vanished around 1940. Their method was flexible enough that they were able to make small runs of custom model. I was surprised to obtain a trolley kit marketed by Paul Moore that has custom sides made from the Exacta method. I had no idea that Paul had sold kits using that tech. His tech was almost exclusively hand-cut card sides and ends until he later mode'ed some Walthers coach kits into South Shore and moved to cast ends for many of his kits. It has very similar levels of detailing to a die-cast plastic model, and hints at needing much less tooling. It has the detailing we are striving for in todays 3d printed models, with much better material stability. I've not seen the like done anywhere else, for anything. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 19, 2014, at 6:44 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Mike, > > I'm sure that thought didn't escape Jay when he guessed that the Denise owner may have been drafted or volunteered into the Service; it didn't escape me. Good chance that the Denise company owner enlisted in the Service for the duration and may not have returned from the theater he was deployed to. We know that very little (if any) metals could be used for hobby manufacturing during the War, although if a manufacturer thought enough of his product to market it before the War, one would think he'd want to resume it after (if) he returned. But then, any number of things could have changed in the interum, including his getting married when he returned and going on a different venture, or just running out of money to get reestablished. The HO T&HS SIG group used to do histories on the early manufacturers, but I don't know if they did anything on such an obscure company that so little was known about, or its owner. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 9/19/2014 3:31:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I wonder if the creator of this went overseas during the soon arriving war, and didn't make it back ? > > Best to ya... > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi, USA > > On Sep 18, 2014, at 3:18 PM, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Ray W., fascinating information, "200% improved" they said! Since I brought out my carton of small format, 1940s Model Railroader magazines, I will be looking them over the next few days and seeing if I can spot any of the Denise locomotives on any of the layouts pictured in those issues. W. Jay W. #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526 -- #yiv5893131526ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526ygrp-mkp #yiv5893131526hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526ygrp-mkp #yiv5893131526ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526ygrp-mkp .yiv5893131526ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526ygrp-mkp .yiv5893131526ad p { margin:0;} #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526ygrp-mkp .yiv5893131526ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526ygrp-sponsor #yiv5893131526ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526ygrp-sponsor #yiv5893131526ygrp-lc #yiv5893131526hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} #yiv5893131526 #yiv5893131526ygrp-sponsor #yiv5893131526ygrp-lc .yiv5893131526ad { 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23188	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Exacta

I am not certain how Exacta got into the current mix, but I can assure you that Exacta did indeed continue production into the '50s.  The remnants of the company were in the possession of Ray _____of Mt. View, California in 1961 (Ray was a notable custom O gauge locomotive builder of the time).  I purchased from him for a few dollars the remaining molded  formed plated HO passenger car bodies (about 50 or so in a bushel basket), but left behind the unformed flat sheets and all the copper plates (a ton...). AFIK, all of these latter went into the scrap bin. Now, this is what I think I know about the Exacta cars, whose production began c. 1948 in San Francisco: Their most common products were Budd and P-S  formed molded nickel plated copper HO, O, and (reportedly S) scale pre-war streamlined cars. They also produced molded sides of heavyweight cars by the same method.   The kits for both were provided with wood floors, and the heavyweight kits had a milled wood roof. During the Korean war, the cars were apparently made of zinc, not copper ). The Budd and P-S car models were oversize, but not by much. The Central Lines line of HO car kits were identical to the Exacta line of the same cars, except that they used the same copper plates (or molds) to make the sides in a thick tough gray plastic. The plastic was unusual in that it was impervious (impervious!) to just about every solvent that one could think of, but was and is supersensitive to the slightest heat. I do not know whether the earlier kits with the identical copper sides were marketed under the Exacta or Central lines names. I have three finished Central Lines cars on my layout (two ATSF baggage cars, and an SP RPO), and about five of the streamlined cars ditto (two different Budd baggage cars, a Budd diner, and Budd diner, sleeper, and chaircar.   They have all been successfully replated, and they really still stand up pretty well in the midst of my prototype-based layout roster.  I still have a small number of the Central Lines kits (VERY nice cars), and a larger number of unfinished lightweight cars (with a mandrel on which to shape the bodies). They are NOT easy to build if one is to be meticulous about creating true scale models, but....it surely can be done. Denny   Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23189	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

Denny and others ,   Thanks for adding to the info gathered on Central Lines/Exacta.  Any little bit of previously unknown knowledge tacked on to what we know of this manufacturer helps in creating a bigger picture of these products.  I would, however, like to clarify some of what's been said here, so as not to create any misconceptions.  Before doing so though, I'd just like to mention that this company apparently made several moves in its lifetime.  All literature and kit info I have on them state Los Gatos, CA as their address, although they've perhaps been in San Francisco at one time even though I can't find anything on that.   One seemingly confusing point noted, is the statement; "The Central Lines line of HO car kits were identical to the Exacta line of the same cars, . . . "  By this it might be assumed that these were two different manufacturers producing very similar car kits, but I don't know if it's meant this way.  "Central Lines" and "Exacta" are one and the same company.  As part of my collection of Central Lines kits, all of the kits stating EXACTA - MOLDED COPPER MODELS also has CENTRAL LINES MFG. CO. printed on the box's top and on the box end label and on the instructions.  If the term, Exacta differentiated the nickel plated copper sidecar kits from the plastic side car kits as a different company, it wouldn't have Central Lines Mfg written on the same box.  Those Central Lines Mfg. Co. kits that are only nickel plated copper though, are additionally described as "Exacta," while still being yet another Central Lines Mfg kit (They're ALL Central Lines Mfg.).     Another series of Central Lines Mfg. Co. kits in my collection is the "Old Fashioned" series, having a box end label saying "Central Lines Old Fashioned HO Gauge Coach;" with one I'm looking at saying "B&O 1863 Coach."  The box top just reads; "Central Lines Scale Railroad Models."  It doesn't say Exacta, even though this style car was previously made in the Exacta process.  This kit, having a past month/year Model Railroader endorsement as part of the literature (dated as July 1953) along with the instructions, has the plastic sides that are described as being offered during the Korean War.  As the Korean War started on June 25, 1950 and ended on July 27, 1953, the MR ad came just at the very end of this conflict, yet the kit is somewhat newer.  Might be that the plastic sides on these Old Fashioned kits were not just substituted during that War, but continued with these kits, afterwards.   Larry Stevenson (HO Seeker) states that the Central Lines Streamlined (Exacta -- Nickel-Plated Copper-Side cars) were first produced in 1946, with the plastic side Central Lines Old Fashioned cars coming in 1951.  I don't have any history on this manufacturer so I can't dispute him.  Ma Webster's  (Model R.R. Equipment Corp.) catalogs from the early 1950's include most all of the Central Lines Mfg. Co. products, including, and in addition to, the two types I've mentioned above.  The 1950 Model R.R. Equipment -- All Gauges -- catalog carries Standard (heavyweight) Passenger Cars, Old Time Passenger Cars and Streamline Passenger Cars in HO scale.  In O scale, they carried Standard Passenger Cars and Streamline Passenger Cars -- AND, in S scale, they carried Streamline Passenger Cars (but not Standard Passenger Cars).  It appears that Central Lines did produce the Streamline Passenger cars -- in both corrugated and smooth-side styles, or Ma Webster couldn't have been offering them.  Model R.R. Equipment continued to carry all of Central Lines'  HO scale products through at least 1953 as found in that year's HO scale catalog.   Chuck H., if you're following this thread, please check to see if perhaps I wrote this manufacturer up for VintageHO, which you may have done a spreadsheet on for me, and put it in the files.  Somehow, a lot of this seems familiar to me as I'm writing it.   A catalog page of Central Lines talks about THEIR Exacta line of products as just another series of THEIR cars -- the nickel plated ones (which they state they're the originators of).  The title of this particular page reads; 'Exacta "Stainless Steel" Streamliner.  Near the bottom of the page, after citing all their advantages, they stated; "These are the exclusive features that have made Exacta the leader in model passenger kits and their Central Lines Manufacturing Co. name and address (Los Gatos) appears on the bottom.  The streamline cars included both corrugated Budd type cars and smooth-side Pullman type cars -- 18 different models of these in all.   The following page in this Central Lines catalog has "Exacta Molded Copper Models" and goes on to describe an Old Fashioned car kit as being part of the Exacta process as well as a No. 507 Pullman Standard (heavyweight) Coach receiving the same process.  The Old Fashioned car in this case, being the Wagner's Sleeping Car (Model No. 701) as a representative of one of this series which received the Exacta processing, and was written of this sleeping car as; "A real old timer of beautiful detail that is only possible by the Exacta process . . . This is truly a collector's item."  This goes to demonstrate that Central Lines also applied their Exacta nickel-plating process to the Old Time series of cars.  On this same page also, beneath the Pullman Standard car, Central Lines shows their No. 600 Indiana Traction Combine 430 Series and their No. 602 Interurban Car.   Here's an HO listing of the rest of Central Lines Manufacturing Co., from my Central Lines catalogs (in case Chuck hadn't put anything I may have written on this manufacturer in the files);   Budd Type Streamline Train   No. 109 - 80' Baggage No. 110 - 70' Baggage No. 111 - Postal Baggage (30' RPO) No. 112 - Baggage, Crew Dormitory, 21 Passenger Lounge No. 113 - Diner 48 Passenger No' 114 - Sleeper, 22 Passenger No. 115 - Coach, 52 Passenger No. 116 - Coach, 56 Passenger No. 118 - Tavern Observation     Pullman Type Streamline Train   No. 250 - Combination Mail and Baggage No. 251 - 60 Passenger Coach No. 252 - Day-Nite Coach, 48 Passenger No. 253 - Sleeper, 24 Duplex Roomette No. 254 - Lounge - Lunch Counter - Crew Dormitory No. 255 - Dining Car No. 256 - Sleeper, 8 Duplex Roomette - 4 Bedrooms - 4 Sections No. 257 - Sleeper 16 Duplex Roomette - 4 Bedrooms No. 258 - Pullman Observation Lounge Car    Pullman - Standard Type Train   No. 500 - Postal Baggage (Railway Express) No. 501 - Express Baggage No. 502 - 80 Passenger Day Coach No. 503 - Standard Day Coach No. 506 - Pullman Standard - 6 Compartment, 3 Drawing Room No. 507 - Pullman 14 Section, 1 Drawing Room No. 508 - Standard Diner No. 510 - Pullman 4 Compartment, Observation Lounge Car No. 511 - S.P. Observation     Old Fashioned Coaches   Wagner's ("Palace") sleeping Car - 51' Virginia & Truckee Combine  - 45' Vestibule End Coach - 1908  - 65' and 75' Observation, Parlor Car - 1908 - 65' and 75' U.S. Postal Car - 1900 - 50' Smoker Baggage - 1898 - 54' Passenger Coach - 1898 -50' Business ( & Pay) Car - 1898 - 54' Baggage Car - 1898 - 50' Combine - 1898 - 50'     Baltimore & Ohio Coaches   1863 Baggage - 40' 1863 Coach - 45' 1886 Combine - 45'     Additional Miscellaneous   No. 801 - Street Car   About all I have now on Central Lines.   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 9/21/2014 2:57:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I am not certain how Exacta got into the current mix, but I can assure you that Exacta did indeed continue production into the '50s.  The remnants of the company were in the possession of Ray _____of Mt. View, California in 1961 (Ray was a notable custom O gauge locomotive builder of the time).  I purchased from him for a few dollars the remaining molded  formed plated HO passenger car bodies (about 50 or so in a bushel basket), but left behind the unformed flat sheets and all the copper plates (a ton...). AFIK, all of these latter went into the scrap bin. Now, this is what I think I know about the Exacta cars, whose production began c. 1948 in San Francisco: Their most common products were Budd and P-S  formed molded nickel plated copper HO, O, and (reportedly S) scale pre-war streamlined cars. They also produced molded sides of heavyweight cars by the same method.   The kits for both were provided with wood floors, and the heavyweight kits had a milled wood roof. During the Korean war, the cars were apparently made of zinc, not copper ). The Budd and P-S car models were oversize, but not by much. The Central Lines line of HO car kits were identical to the Exacta line of the same cars, except that they used the same copper plates (or molds) to make the sides in a thick tough gray plastic. The plastic was unusual in that it was impervious (impervious!) to just about every solvent that one could think of, but was and is supersensitive to the slightest heat. I do not know whether the earlier kits with the identical copper sides were marketed under the Exacta or Central lines names. I have three finished Central Lines cars on my layout (two ATSF baggage cars, and an SP RPO), and about five of the streamlined cars ditto (two different Budd baggage cars, a Budd diner, and Bud d diner, sleeper, and chaircar.   They have all been successfully replated, and they really still stand up pretty well in the midst of my prototype-based layout roster.  I still have a small number of the Central Lines kits (VERY nice cars), and a larger number of unfinished lightweight cars (with a mandrel on which to shape the bodies). They are NOT easy to build if one is to be meticulous about creating true scale models, but....it surely can be done. Denny Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23190	From: docdenny34	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

"The Central Lines line of HO car kits were identical to the Exacta line of the same cars, . . . " Unless notified otherwise, Central Lines and Exacta were one and same company, AFIK,  with otherwise similar/identical green kit boxes.  When I say that the Exacta flat sides produced in copper/zinc were the same as the Central Lines plastic sides, I meant just that: they are identical except for the materials (at least those that I possess), suggesting in the strongest terms that both were produced with the same molds. The supply of solitary blank plastic CL sides  -some blank-  that were bundled in the basket of copper cab bodies would certainly speak to a common maker.     I am aware of the reported Los Gatos origins, but some of the early ads that  have come to my attention in the past said "San Francisco" (perhaps an address of convenience). When I am back to my records, I can report the full name of the person in Mountain View who in 1962 held/owned the remaining inventory. Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23191	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/21/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

I'm not attempting to correct anything you said, rather to clarify what you said.  Yes, and to put it another way, the Central Lines' Exacta flat sides from the Old Fashioned cars, produced in copper/zinc, were the same as the Central Lines plastic cars of this same style car not using the Exacta process.  This would ensure that the two names would not be mistaken for two different manufacturers, as could otherwise be misunderstood from this description if that's not made clear, i.e., if the two names were taken by the reader as two different firms when used individually -- with no connection to each other.  Just trying to establish that "Exacta" is not another manufacturer, aside from Central Lines, as we both know.   I'm most interested in learning more about the name of the person who finally owned the Central Lines inventory in the early '60's, and the disposition of all said sides.  With the number of different types of models made, including the heavyweight Pullman cars, Interurbans, street cars and both style Streamline cars (in addition to the Old Fashioned models), were any of these other cars left at the very end?  A shame that the unformed Exacta-processed sides were scrapped.  The question comes to mind, that since you have the mandrel to shape these sides, why you didn't also take the unformed sides -- unless you were only able to obtain Exacta-processed Old Fashioned ones.  This hand-forming process of the Streamline carbodies using a mandrel reminds me of the Kemtron Centipede tender kits, in which the modeler needs to fashion his own mandrel to form the curves on this tender's brass sides.  Not really an easy chore, but doable (with patience) as proof of many fine examples of finished models.   Ray W.    In a message dated 9/21/2014 8:52:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   "The Central Lines line of HO car kits were identical to the Exacta line of the same cars, . . . " Unless notified otherwise, Central Lines and Exacta were one and same company, AFIK,  with otherwise similar/identical green kit boxes.  When I say that the Exacta flat sides produced in copper/zinc were the same as the Central Lines plastic sides, I meant just that: they are identical except for the materials (at least those that I possess), suggesting in the strongest terms that both were produced with the same molds. The supply of solitary blank plastic CL sides  -some blank-  that were bundled in the basket of copper cab bodies would certainly speak to a common maker.     I am aware of the reported Los Gatos origins, but some of the early ads that  have come to my attention in the past said "San Francisco" (perhaps an address of convenience). When I am back to my records, I can report the full name of the person in Mountain View who in 1962 held/owned the remaining inventory. Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23192	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

This may not be the reason why the blank sides were scrapped instead of pressed into salable sides...... But I know that in my company, the firm pays a heavier tax on unsold finished parts and assemblies than on the raw materials. Our solution is to not have any inventory of unsold items to prevent paying the steeper taxes on those slumbering items. Just maybe a similar tax burden was placed on The Central Lines inventory  and thus the potential unsold inventory was kept at a minimum. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Sep 22, 2014, at 12:00 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: I'm not attempting to correct anything you said, rather to clarify what you said.  Yes, and to put it another way, the Central Lines' Exacta flat sides from the Old Fashioned cars, produced in copper/zinc, were the same as the Central Lines plastic cars of this same style car not using the Exacta process.  This would ensure that the two names would not be mistaken for two different manufacturers, as could otherwise be misunderstood from this description if that's not made clear, i.e., if the two names were taken by the reader as two different firms when used individually -- with no connection to each other.  Just trying to establish that "Exacta" is not another manufacturer, aside from Central Lines, as we both know.   I'm most interested in learning more about the name of the person who finally owned the Central Lines inventory in the early '60's, and the disposition of all said sides.  With the number of different types of models made, including the heavyweight Pullman cars, Interurbans, street cars and both style Streamline cars (in addition to the Old Fashioned models), were any of these other cars left at the very end?  A shame that the unformed Exacta-processed sides were scrapped.  The question comes to mind, that since you have the mandrel to shape these sides, why you didn't also take the unformed sides -- unless you were only able to obtain Exacta-processed Old Fashioned ones.  This hand-forming process of the Streamline carbodies using a mandrel reminds me of the Kemtron Centipede tender kits, in which the modeler needs to fashion his own mandrel to form the curves on this tender's brass sides.  Not really an easy chore, but doable (with patience) as proof of many fine examples of finished models.   Ray W.    In a message dated 9/21/2014 8:52:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   "The Central Lines line of HO car kits were identical to the Exacta line of the same cars, . . . " Unless notified otherwise, Central Lines and Exacta were one and same company, AFIK,  with otherwise similar/identical green kit boxes.  When I say that the Exacta flat sides produced in copper/zinc were the same as the Central Lines plastic sides, I meant just that: they are identical except for the materials (at least those that I possess), suggesting in the strongest terms that both were produced with the same molds. The supply of solitary blank plastic CL sides  -some blank-  that were bundled in the basket of copper cab bodies would certainly speak to a common maker.     I am aware of the reported Los Gatos origins, but some of the early ads that  have come to my attention in the past said "San Francisco" (perhaps an address of convenience). When I am back to my records, I can report the full name of the person in Mountain View who in 1962 held/owned the remaining inventory. Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23193	From: greenbrier614	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Roger, wow, that's a rare find! I doubt many made it to our side of the pond. May I ask how much you paid, and do you have any photos? Ray, all Rivarossi products were made in Italy, aside from a few joint ventures in later years where they shared their tooling for the E8's and 4-4-0's with Mehano, which was the Yugoslavian firm. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23194	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

Hi Mike, What state are we talking about or is this federal? Joel Holmes > This may not be the reason why the blank sides were scrapped instead of > pressed into salable sides...... > > But I know that in my company, the firm pays a heavier tax on unsold > finished parts and assemblies than on the raw materials. Our solution is > to not have any inventory of unsold items to prevent paying the steeper > taxes on those slumbering items. > > Just maybe a similar tax burden was placed on The Central Lines inventory > and thus the potential unsold inventory was kept at a minimum. > > > Mike Bauers > Sent from my iPhone > > >> On Sep 22, 2014, at 12:00 AM, "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" >> <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> I'm not attempting to correct anything you said, rather to clarify what >> you said. Yes, and to put it another way, the Central Lines' Exacta >> flat sides from the Old Fashioned cars, produced in copper/zinc, were >> the same as the Central Lines plastic cars of this same style car not >> using the Exacta process. This would ensure that the two names would >> not be mistaken for two different manufacturers, as could otherwise be >> misunderstood from this description if that's not made clear, i.e., if >> the two names were taken by the reader as two different firms when used >> individually -- with no connection to each other. Just trying to >> establish that "Exacta" is not another manufacturer, aside from Central >> Lines, as we both know. >> >> I'm most interested in learning more about the name of the person who >> finally owned the Central Lines inventory in the early '60's, and the >> disposition of all said sides. With the number of different types of >> models made, including the heavyweight Pullman cars, Interurbans, street >> cars and both style Streamline cars (in addition to the Old Fashioned >> models), were any of these other cars left at the very end? A shame >> that the unformed Exacta-processed sides were scrapped. The question >> comes to mind, that since you have the mandrel to shape these sides, why >> you didn't also take the unformed sides -- unless you were only able to >> obtain Exacta-processed Old Fashioned ones. This hand-forming process >> of the Streamline carbodies using a mandrel reminds me of the Kemtron >> Centipede tender kits, in which the modeler needs to fashion his own >> mandrel to form the curves on this tender's brass sides. Not really an >> easy chore, but doable (with patience) as proof of many fine examples of >> finished models. >> >> Ray W. >> >> In a message dated 9/21/2014 8:52:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: >> "The Central Lines line of HO car kits were identical to the Exacta line >> of the same cars, . . . " >> >> Unless notified otherwise, Central Lines and Exacta were one and same >> company, AFIK, with otherwise similar/identical green kit boxes. When >> I say that the Exacta flat sides produced in copper/zinc were the same >> as the Central Lines plastic sides, I meant just that: they are >> identical except for the materials (at least those that I possess), >> suggesting in the strongest terms that both were produced with the same >> molds. >> >> The supply of solitary blank plastic CL sides -some blank- that were >> bundled in the basket of copper cab bodies would certainly speak to a >> common maker. >> >> I am aware of the reported Los Gatos origins, but some of the early ads >> that have come to my attention in the past said "San Francisco" >> (perhaps an address of convenience). >> >> When I am back to my records, I can report the full name of the person >> in Mountain View who in 1962 held/owned the remaining inventory. >> >> Denny >> >> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23195	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

Joel, Mike B. and all, I believe there was a major Federal tax code change in the 1980s that significantly affected how firms were taxed on inventory of products and parts. Whereas companies, at least some of them kept parts for decades, taking pride in being able to serve their customers requirements, They now are virtually forced to scrap or sell parts as soon as the warranty/guarantee period runs out or are taxed on the inventory at almost the same basis as income as I understand it. I was active in the old car hobby in the 1980s and remember that this was a matter of great concern when it was placed in effect. Individual states also had an assortment of tax regulations, but doubt this would have been much concern to a small firm like Central/Exacta 60 years ago. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23196	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

Doc Denny and All, I have only had one experience of buying out the estate of a small basement operator's inventory in the 1980s, and can only say that these purchases are not always as cut and dry as it seems. In my case the man died on a Friday or Saturday, while going through his papers, they found a letter from me, written a year or two earlier in which I stated if he had lost interest in the project, I would be willing to negotiate a purchase and continue it. They called me over on Sunday and we worked a deal for the remaining parts based upon, I think it was about 200 carbodies (Erie Stillwell coaches) which were already cast. Luckily, I had spent some time with the man about nine months before he died and he took me through the entire manufacturing process – an enjoyable three or four hour evening. If I had not had that knowledge, I would've never picked up the project. Instead of simply counting the car bodies and underframes and giving me the rest of the parts castings truck parts etc., his adult son insisted on counting them either individually or by weight. They kept all of the latex molds and would not even give me one "as a souvenir" as they were afraid I would cast more – they did not know they were already used and had a life of only about a dozen to 15. I have no idea what became of the extra parts, but they were never advertised within the hobby. Then I had a bit of difficulty even getting a small jig necessary to solder the white metal trucks together. Finally, I had to return by the afternoon of the next day which was a Monday and complete the deal and take everything which require two trips in my small car. When I arrived the next day I planned on looking over a few additional items, but was shocked to find out the entire basement was completely cleaned out except for the parts that we had agreed upon. That also included the man's extensive darkroom – he was a professional photographer. I know that his brass locomotive collection was purchased by another individual and that the completed cars were purchased by a hobby shop owner – I could not afford them at the price they were offering. An extensive stock of rapid transit car body castings was apparently trashed due to a disagreement with the individual that he may have been casting them for, as. in over a decade of watching on eBay, have never seen one of them surface. So what from the outside might seem like a simple deal, often had complications that decades later may seem hard to understand for anyone not directly involved. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23197	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Nelson,   Yes, I realized that later.  My AHM Rivarossi UP Big Boy, NYC Hudson and N&W Y6b Mallet have "Made in Italy" printed on their boxes  My AHM Erie Lackawanna RS-2, which I'm holding in my hand, my MILW Fairbanks Morse Erie-Built (C-Liner) and many other AHM Diesels I bought back then clearly state "Made in Yugoslavia" printed on their boxes, but then, they don't have any manufacturer's name on them.  My D&RGW Krauss Maffei diesel-hydraulic was made in Italy though.  It would not surprise me however, if the AHM PRR GG-1 also has "Made in Yugoslavia" printed on its box, when I dig it out and read it, but I'll reserve that for when I unpack it.  Either I had come to think over time that all AHM was made by Rivarossi, or I just assumed back then that the Yugoslavian models were also made by Rivarossi and never looked into it further.  I just don't remember why I continued to think that for almost 40 years (I bought them in 1975), but with the AHM models from Yugoslavia having those yellow & blue boxes identical (sans "Rivarossi") to those coming from Italy, I probably never thought twice about the manufacturer at that time.  I do have an AA pair of E8's (E-L).  I have to wonder why AHM never printed a manufacturers' name on their Yugoslavian products' boxes.  Thanks for pointing this out.      Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/22/2014 6:17:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Roger, wow, that's a rare find! I doubt many made it to our side of the pond. May I ask how much you paid, and do you have any photos? Ray, all Rivarossi products were made in Italy, aside from a few joint ventures in later years where they shared their tooling for the E8's and 4-4-0's with Mehano, which was the Yugoslavian firm. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23198	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

It's hard to say. As an illustration of how taxes are not standard, consider that we have  over 11,000 separate sales tax districts in the US. (This comes up as a complication with proposals to charge sales tax on purchases bought elsewhere and delivered to a home.) If you live in Milwaukee, you pay a tax for owning a car, if you live in a neighboring town, there is no such tax. As non-uniform as property taxation is, you have to wonder. Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone On Sep 22, 2014, at 8:50 AM, "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Joel, Mike B. and all, I believe there was a major Federal tax code change in the 1980s that significantly affected how firms were taxed on inventory of products and parts. Whereas companies, at least some of them kept parts for decades, taking pride in being able to serve their customers requirements, They now are virtually forced to scrap or sell parts as soon as the warranty/guarantee period runs out or are taxed on the inventory at almost the same basis as income as I understand it. I was active in the old car hobby in the 1980s and remember that this was a matter of great concern when it was placed in effect. Individual states also had an assortment of tax regulations, but doubt this would have been much concern to a small firm like Central/Exacta 60 years ago. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23199	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Hello Nelson No photos taken as yet - will put it on the test track at my local club on Wednesday. My version is in the Chestnut brown / Beige livery (Castano / Isabella). Now, I paid a bit more than I really wanted to, but the last time I saw a pair of these in this good a condition was about 5 years ago when they went (on auction) for double then what I paid last weekend which was 75 GBP / roughly 120 USD. Incidentally most of my H0 models are Italian outline Rivarossi - but most are late 1960s to early 1980s.  The Exhibition was an annual "Eurotrack" event with participation from groups from continental Europe, and the traders too brought their (mainly) continental "goodies".  I also purchased a second-hand Consolidation made 1970s/1980s by Jouef but that was only 40 GBP from a bring-and-buy stall. RogerW Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (5)   Searching for new groups to join is easier than ever. We've honed our algorithm to bring you better search results based on relevance and activity. Try it today! Visit Your Group New Photos 6 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23200	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Roger W., Ray W. and All,   That's a great Rivarossi model, Roger, and even though out of my regular collection area, I would have not hesitated buying it either!   In case you or some of our other members are not aware of it, there is an excellentt Rivarossi history website, which has a digital archive to all catalogs going back to the late 1940's. They also have an interesting long interview with Allesandro Rossi, which gives insight into many of the early models, etc. http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ Ray W, The Yugoslavian firm that AHM contracted with, and that apparently some Rivarossi model dies like the C-Liner were shifted to,  is  "Mehano - a Slovenian toy company, founded in 1952 as Mehanotehnika, which produces a large range of both traditional and electronic toys, as well as model railroad equipment. The company had borne its current name of Mehano since 1990." (from Wikipedia).  Its been a while since I read it, but think Rossi's interview mentions the Mehano connection.    Mehano made/makes some very basic models that were imported into the US, but also has premium lines we don't see here like the DCC ICE, TVG Duplex and Thalys trains as well as modern European locomotives. They may be seen on eBay - I can no longer find their website, they may have been taken over by the Kader group(?). Sol Kramer, wearing his Varney hat, contracted with Mehano to produce the then well received ALCO RS-11 that was first advertised in RMC and sold circa late 1968 in two varieties of Varney boxes,  then a few months later continued as Life-Like. Mehano also made the interesting Alco C-415 modern center cab for American Train and Track, ATT, besides many models for AHM, etc. After ATT folded, Kramer's Life Like imported that C-415 as well and later did the C-628 which IHC still sells.   W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23201	From: John Hagen	Date: 9/22/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

Back in the 50’s, during summer vacation time from school, mother and I would sometimes travel with dad for a week on his rounds as Dodge service rep., especially if he would be going to some neat places (as defined by mom and dad) such as Wisconsin Dells. At one small town in SW Wisconsin I got $0.30 from mother to go buy a milkshake from a local drug store’s fountain. When the dried up old fart behind the counter took my money he says something like “where’s the one cent for the sales tax?” I gives him a stupid look (easy for a ten year old) and sez “Huh?’” He just told me to go on but next time be sure to have enough money to cover the sales tax. Being a young’un and coming from Appleton I had never heard of a sales tax at the time. Don’t recall what burg it was in although somewhere the general vicinity of Montello is a fair guess, nor do I know if it was a county, city, town or village tax but there it was, possibly maybe the only place in Wisconsin to have one at the time.   Boy I still remember thinking at the time that the guy WAS a dried up old fart but now that the description fits myself ………..   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 10:49 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Exacta     It's hard to say.   As an illustration of how taxes are not standard, consider that we have  over 11,000 separate sales tax districts in the US. (This comes up as a complication with proposals to charge sales tax on purchases bought elsewhere and delivered to a home.)   If you live in Milwaukee, you pay a tax for owning a car, if you live in a neighboring town, there is no such tax. As non-uniform as property taxation is, you have to wonder.   Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone   On Sep 22, 2014, at 8:50 AM, "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Joel, Mike B. and all, I believe there was a major Federal tax code change in the 1980s that significantly affected how firms were taxed on inventory of products and parts. Whereas companies, at least some of them kept parts for decades, taking pride in being able to serve their customers requirements, They now are virtually forced to scrap or sell parts as soon as the warranty/guarantee period runs out or are taxed on the inventory at almost the same basis as income as I understand it. I was active in the old car hobby in the 1980s and remember that this was a matter of great concern when it was placed in effect. Individual states also had an assortment of tax regulations, but doubt this would have been much concern to a small firm like Central/Exacta 60 years ago. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23202	From: anypaddler	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)

W. Jay W. wrote: < Mehano also made the interesting Alco C-415 modern center cab for American Train and Track, ------------------------- I have one of those; picked it up at a train show many years ago.  A previous owner had done a very poor job of hand-pointing the BN paint scheme, and I haven't gotten around to repainting it.   I bought the model because I like the idea of center-cab switcher.  However, the prototype suffered from a number of issues, not the least of which was water leaks in the electrical cabinet.  The radiators were located in one end with the water lines passing through the cabinet to the engine which was in the other end of the unit.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23203	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Mystery cast brass GG1

Attachments : schrader.jpg 15316440122_820f430d92_o.jpg 15316439952_fa364b7698_o.jpg 15316439772_cae0f85045_o.jpg 15130034049_08aa3281c7_o.jpg Hello All! I have a mystery I was hoping someone here might be able to help me solve. I purchased a cast brass GG1 the other day and I have not been able to identify it yet. I was originally thinking George Stock or Schrader, but I l already have two Goerge Stock models, one aluminum and one brass. Neither match this model. An internet search already confirmed this is not a Schrader model... at least not one from the mid 1950's... I've attached a pic of that model.  Any help on this subject would be greatly appreciated. I sure wish I lived closer to Jim H at this point as I think he might have some insight.  Sincerely,  Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23204	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

Sean, Offhand, I am thinking of the General Models(?) import from Japan which copied the Penn Line GG-1. I believe it may have been discussed here years back - one of the distinguishing characteristics I remember reading about is that all of the screws are metric. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23205	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

Sean, On second look, if it is scale length, how about FAMOCO – Famous Model Company – I believe located in Long Island City, Queens New York circa 1940s. I only have a shell packed away, but the remnants of the pantographs do not seem to match yours. Jim Heckard has a FAMOCO unit pictured in one of his albums here. W.Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23206	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

Sean and Jay,   This (FAMOCO) was just what I was about to suggest, when you beat me to it by a few minutes < g >.  My feeling is that this is the manufacturer.  Try checking out Jim's GG-1 by the same manufacturer - and./or try looking into Larry's HO Seeker literature on this make.   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/23/2014 12:08:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Sean, On second look, if it is scale length, how about FAMOCO – Famous Model Company – I believe located in Long Island City, Queens New York circa 1940s. I only have a shell packed away, but the remnants of the pantographs do not seem to match yours. Jim Heckard has a FAMOCO unit pictured in one of his albums here. W.Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23207	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

Attachments : 100_3423.JPG Hello W. Ray, I also have a box of FAMOCO parts. This does not match them... See attached pic of the FAMOCO models I have. The pantographs were made of die cast metal. The shells of those models were die cast zimax and not brass or bronze.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 12:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean, On second look, if it is scale length, how about FAMOCO – Famous Model Company – I believe located in Long Island City, Queens New York circa 1940s. I only have a shell packed away, but the remnants of the pantographs do not seem to match yours. Jim Heckard has a FAMOCO unit pictured in one of his albums here. W.Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23208	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

W. Ray, I have previously owned the GHC Japan import as well which was an all die cast model with brass pantographs.  This mystery GG1 has a brass/bronze shell and the shell is pretty much smooth, with no molded on details, such as the louvered vents or the PRR keystone. Even the roof center plate is fairly crude in it's detail.  Also, the casting is notably thicker at the nose than the George Stock, Oenn Line or FAMOCO models I have..    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 11:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean, Offhand, I am thinking of the General Models(?) import from Japan which copied the Penn Line GG-1. I believe it may have been discussed here years back - one of the distinguishing characteristics I remember reading about is that all of the screws are metric. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23209	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

Sean,   I think all of the vintage GG1's that I'm aware of have been covered then.  As I recall from my Schrader GG-1's, they have a large raised keystone molded into the sides, so that one can be eliminated since your's is smooth.  Sure IS a mystery.  Makes me wonder about all of what some of those early brass-casters produced, like Harry J, Garrett and Adams & Sons.  There's a lot we don't know about manufacturers like this, who could have produced a lot more than we'd know.     Ray W.      In a message dated 9/23/2014 12:31:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   W. Ray, I have previously owned the GHC Japan import as well which was an all die cast model with brass pantographs.  This mystery GG1 has a brass/bronze shell and the shell is pretty much smooth, with no molded on details, such as the louvered vents or the PRR keystone. Even the roof center plate is fairly crude in it's detail.  Also, the casting is notably thicker at the nose than the George Stock, Oenn Line or FAMOCO models I have..    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, S eptember 23, 2014 11:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean, Offhand, I am thinking of the General Models(?) import from Japan which copied the Penn Line GG-1. I believe it may have been discussed here years back - one of the distinguishing characteristics I remember reading about is that all of the screws are metric. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23210	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)

Even if the water-pipes didn't leak, the condensation from the pipe routing would be harmful to the electricals. A bad decision there ! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 23, 2014, at 9:41 AM, Alpvalsys wrote: > > > W. Jay W. wrote: > < Mehano also made the interesting Alco C-415 modern center cab for American Train and Track, > ------------------------- > I have one of those; picked it up at a train show many years ago. A previous owner had done a very poor job of hand-pointing the BN paint scheme, and I haven't gotten around to repainting it. > > I bought the model because I like the idea of center-cab switcher. However, the prototype suffered from a number of issues, not the least of which was water leaks in the electrical cabinet. The radiators were located in one end with the water lines passing through the cabinet to the engine which was in the other end of the unit. > > Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23211	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

Yes Ray, Thanks for the replies W. Jay and Ray!  Both the Schrader and the G. Stock GG1's have the raised PRR plate.  I might try giving Jim a call on my way home from work. I have been meaning to call him to see how he has been doing.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean,   I think all of the vintage GG1's that I'm aware of have been covered then.  As I recall from my Schrader GG-1's, they have a large raised keystone molded into the sides, so that one can be eliminated since your's is smooth.  Sure IS a mystery.  Makes me wonder about all of what some of those early brass-casters produced, like Harry J, Garrett and Adams & Sons.  There's a lot we don't know about manufacturers like this, who could have produced a lot more than we'd know.     Ray W.      In a message dated 9/23/2014 12:31:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   W. Ray, I have previously owned the GHC Japan import as well which was an all die cast model with brass pantographs.  This mystery GG1 has a brass/bronze shell and the shell is pretty much smooth, with no molded on details, such as the louvered vents or the PRR keystone. Even the roof center plate is fairly crude in it's detail.  Also, the casting is notably thicker at the nose than the George Stock, Oenn Line or FAMOCO models I have..    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, S eptember 23, 2014 11:46 AM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean, Offhand, I am thinking of the General Models(?) import from Japan which copied the Penn Line GG-1. I believe it may have been discussed here years back - one of the distinguishing characteristics I remember reading about is that all of the screws are metric. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23212	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: More on Exacta

In continuing going through MR mags looking for further info on Central Lines/Exacta, The very first mention I notice on this manufacturer in the magazines as an ad in the April 1946 issue.  It reads like this:   New! "EXACTA" Moulded Copper Car Sides   New . . . car sides for The Pullman Standard staggered Window Roomette . . . "O" Gauge, $6.50, "S" Gauge, $5.00, "OO" Gauge, $4.00, "HO" Gauge, $3.50.   ORDERS NOW BOOKED FOR STREAMLINE TRAIN CARSIDES . . . ALL GAUGES. Delivery about APRIL 1st.   They are not stamped in tin . . . but moulded in heavy solid lustrous copper!  The most realistic sides with rivet spacing 90% correct . . . recessed doors and windows.  Special orders taken on new designs. SEND FOR CATALOG   "EXACTA" SCALE MODELS, Inc. (Successor to Baker-Scott Railway Model Sides) 4215 N. Vancouver Avenue * Portland 11, Oregon   You'll note, there is no mention of Central Lines, nor is it stated that these copper car sides are nickel plated.  The company name for this month and for at least the next 15 months IS "Exacta," which took over the Baker-Scott Railway Model Company, a manufacturer I can find nothing on in any ads.    The May MR ad for Exacta is quite interesting as it appears they offered moulded copper sides for very early EMC diesel passenger engines, in "Chicago & Northwestern," "City of Denver" and "Union Pacific."  "Super Chief sides will be ready June 1st,  All gauges."  This was cut back to just offering these sides in O scale in a later MR issue.   Their January '47 ad offered "EXACTA" MAGOR ALL_METAL CABOOSE, in O, OO and HO scales.  This was a complete kit -- PERFECTLY SCALED IN LUSTROUS MOULDED COPPER (with an aluminum underframe).  This ad also offered standard car sides.  Ads for their streamlined smooth-side Pullman and corrugated-side Budd passenger cars of moulded copper continued up until July 1947, still with no mention about nickel plating.    Two months went by without an ad from the Exacta Company, until in the October '47 MR, Central Lines Mfg. Co. finally comes out with an ad announcing the move of the Exacta company to a new enlarged factory at 770 Mission Street, San Francisco 3, Calif., and them being Manufacturers of "EXACTA" Scale Models.  The July 1948 MR has the last Central Lines Mfg. Co. ad that's published for a while, and it continued advertising their Exacta streamlined kits (Pullman and Budd).  The HO gauge kits came with "Micro-Motive" sprung passenger trucks.  I need to check further into 1948 and later MR's to see where they picked up on advertising again.   Ray Wetzel  .         In a message dated 9/21/2014 6:35:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Denny and others ,   Thanks for adding to the info gathered on Central Lines/Exacta.  Any little bit of previously unknown knowledge tacked on to what we know of this manufacturer helps in creating a bigger picture of these products.  I would, however, like to clarify some of what's been said here, so as not to create any misconceptions.  Before doing so though, I'd just like to mention that this company apparently made several moves in its lifetime.  All literature and kit info I have on them state Los Gatos, CA as their address, although they've perhaps been in San Francisco at one time even though I can't find anything on that.   One seemingly confusing point noted, is the statement; "The Central Lines line of HO car kits were identical to the Exacta line of the same cars, . . . "  By this it might be assumed that these were two different manufacturers producing very similar car kits, but I don't know if it's meant this way.  "Central Lines" and "Exacta" are one and the same company.  As part of my collection of Central Lines kits, all of the kits stating EXACTA - MOLDED COPPER MODELS also has CENTRAL LINES MFG. CO. printed on the box's top and on the box end label and on the instructions.  If the term, Exacta differentiated the nickel plated copper sidecar kits from the plastic side car kits as a different company, it wouldn't have Central Lines Mfg written on the same box.  Those Central Lines Mfg. Co. kits that are only nickel plated copper though, are additionally described as "Exacta," while still being yet another Central Lines Mfg kit (They're ALL Central Lines Mfg.).     Another series of Central Lines Mfg. Co. kits in my collection is the "Old Fashioned" series, having a box end label saying "Central Lines Old Fashioned HO Gauge Coach;" with one I'm looking at saying "B&O 1863 Coach."  The box top just reads; "Central Lines Scale Railroad Models."  It doesn't say Exacta, even though this style car was previously made in the Exacta process.  This kit, having a past month/year Model Railroader endorsement as part of the literature (dated as July 1953) along with the instructions, has the plastic sides that are described as being offered during the Korean War.  As the Korean War started on June 25, 1950 and ended on July 27, 1953, the MR ad came just at the very end of this conflict, yet the kit is somewhat newer.  Might be that the plastic sides on these Old Fashioned kits were not just substituted during that War, but continued with these kits, afterwards.   Larry Stevenson (HO Seeker) states that the Central Lines Streamlined (Exacta -- Nickel-Plated Copper-Side cars) were first produced in 1946, with the plastic side Central Lines Old Fashioned cars coming in 1951.  I don't have any history on this manufacturer so I can't dispute him.  Ma Webster's  (Model R.R. Equipment Corp.) catalogs from the early 1950's include most all of the Central Lines Mfg. Co. products, including, and in addition to, the two types I've mentioned above.  The 1950 Model R.R. Equipment -- All Gauges -- catalog carries Standard (heavyweight) Passenger Cars, Old Time Passenger Cars and Streamline Passenger Cars in HO scale.  In O scale, they carried Standard Passenger Cars and Streamline Passenger Cars -- AND, in S scale, they carried Streamline Passenger Cars (but not Standard Passenger Cars).  It appears that Central Lines did produce the Streamline Passenger cars -- in both corrugated and smooth-side styles, or Ma Webster couldn't have been offering them.  Model R.R. Equipment continued to carry all of Central Lines'  HO scale products through at least 1953 as found in that year's HO scale catalog.   Chuck H., if you're following this thread, please check to see if perhaps I wrote this manufacturer up for VintageHO, which you may have done a spreadsheet on for me, and put it in the files.  Somehow, a lot of this seems familiar to me as I'm writing it.   A catalog page of Central Lines talks about THEIR Exacta line of products as just another series of THEIR cars -- the nickel plated ones (which they state they're the originators of).  The title of this particular page reads; 'Exacta "Stainless Steel" Streamliner.  Near the bottom of the page, after citing all their advantages, they stated; "These are the exclusive features that have made Exacta the leader in model passenger kits and their Central Lines Manufacturing Co. name and address (Los Gatos) appears on the bottom.  The streamline cars included both corrugated Budd type cars and smooth-side Pullman type cars -- 18 different models of these in all.   The following page in this Central Lines catalog has "Exacta Molded Copper Models" and goes on to describe an Old Fashioned car kit as being part of the Exacta process as well as a No. 507 Pullman Standard (heavyweight) Coach receiving the same process.  The Old Fashioned car in this case, being the Wagner's Sleeping Car (Model No. 701) as a representative of one of this series which received the Exacta processing, and was written of this sleeping car as; "A real old timer of beautiful detail that is only possible by the Exacta process . . . This is truly a collector's item."  This goes to demonstrate that Central Lines also applied their Exacta nickel-plating process to the Old Time series of cars.  On this same page also, beneath the Pullman Standard car, Central Lines shows their No. 600 Indiana Traction Combine 430 Series and their No. 602 Interurban Car.   Here's an HO listing of the rest of Central Lines Manufacturing Co., from my Central Lines catalogs (in case Chuck hadn't put anything I may have written on this manufacturer in the files);   Budd Type Streamline Train   No. 109 - 80' Baggage No. 110 - 70' Baggage No. 111 - Postal Baggage (30' RPO) No. 112 - Baggage, Crew Dormitory, 21 Passenger Lounge No. 113 - Diner 48 Passenger No' 114 - Sleeper, 22 Passenger No. 115 - Coach, 52 Passenger No. 116 - Coach, 56 Passenger No. 118 - Tavern Observation     Pullman Type Streamline Train   No. 250 - Combination Mail and Baggage No. 251 - 60 Passenger Coach No. 252 - Day-Nite Coach, 48 Passenger No. 253 - Sleeper, 24 Duplex Roomette No. 254 - Lounge - Lunch Counter - Crew Dormitory No. 255 - Dining Car No. 256 - Sleeper, 8 Duplex Roomette - 4 Bedrooms - 4 Sections No. 257 - Sleeper 16 Duplex Roomette - 4 Bedrooms No. 258 - Pullman Observation Lounge Car    Pullman - Standard Type Train   No. 500 - Postal Baggage (Railway Express) No. 501 - Express Baggage No. 502 - 80 Passenger Day Coach No. 503 - Standard Day Coach No. 506 - Pullman Standard - 6 Compartment, 3 Drawing Room No. 507 - Pullman 14 Section, 1 Drawing Room No. 508 - Standard Diner No. 510 - Pullman 4 Compartment, Observation Lounge Car No. 511 - S.P. Observation     Old Fashioned Coaches   Wagner's ("Palace") sleeping Car - 51' Virginia & Truckee Combine  - 45' Vestibule End Coach - 1908  - 65' and 75' Observation, Parlor Car - 1908 - 65' and 75' U.S. Postal Car - 1900 - 50' Smoker Baggage - 1898 - 54' Passenger Coach - 1898 -50' Business ( & Pay) Car - 1898 - 54' Baggage Car - 1898 - 50' Combine - 1898 - 50'     Baltimore & Ohio Coaches   1863 Baggage - 40' 1863 Coach - 45' 1886 Combine - 45'     Additional Miscellaneous   No. 801 - Street Car   About all I have now on Central Lines.   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 9/21/2014 2:57:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I am not certain how Exacta got into the current mix, but I can assure you that Exacta did indeed continue production into the '50s.  The remnants of the company were in the possession of Ray _____of Mt. View, California in 1961 (Ray was a notable custom O gauge locomotive builder of the time).  I purchased from him for a few dollars the remaining molded  formed plated HO passenger car bodies (about 50 or so in a bushel basket), but left behind the unformed flat sheets and all the copper plates (a ton...). AFIK, all of these latter went into the scrap bin. Now, this is what I think I know about the Exacta cars, whose production began c. 1948 in San Francisco: Their most common products were Budd and P-S  formed molded nickel plated copper HO, O, and (reportedly S) scale pre-war streamlined cars. They also produced molded sides of heavyweight cars by the same method.   The kits for both were provided with wood floors, and the heavyweight kits had a milled wood roof. During the Korean war, the cars were apparently made of zinc, not copper ). The Budd and P-S car models were oversize, but not by much. The Central Lines line of HO car kits were identical to the Exacta line of the same cars, except that they used the same copper plates (or molds) to make the sides in a thick tough gray plastic. The plastic was unusual in that it was impervious (impervious!) to just about every solvent that one could think of, but was and is supersensitive to the slightest heat. I do not know whether the earlier kits with the identical copper sides were marketed under the Exacta or Central lines names. I have three finished Central Lines cars on my layout (two ATSF baggage cars, and an SP RPO), and about five of the streamlined cars ditto (two different Budd baggage cars, a Budd diner, and Bud d diner, sleeper, and chaircar.   They have all been successfully replated, and they really still stand up pretty well in the midst of my prototype-based layout roster.  I still have a small number of the Central Lines kits (VERY nice cars), and a larger number of unfinished lightweight cars (with a mandrel on which to shape the bodies). They are NOT easy to build if one is to be meticulous about creating true scale models, but....it surely can be done. Denny Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23213	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1 [1 Attachment]

Hi Sean,   Yes, You're right; that your mystery GG-1 is of cast brass, it momentarily went past me when I suggested FAMOCO.  My FAMOCO GG-1 is also die cast zamak so I should have known but just wasn't thinking straight.  Is there a chance that the builder might have filed the raised keystone off (of a Schrader) and smoothed out the casting, the same as Jim had to do with his Conover 2-10-2?  Just can't think of what else it could be.  Maybe Jim Heckard might know when you talk to him.  Please give him my best regards.   Ray W.      In a message dated 9/23/2014 3:57:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello W. Ray, I also have a box of FAMOCO parts. This does not match them... See attached pic of the FAMOCO models I have. The pantographs were made of die cast metal. The shells of those models were die cast zimax and not brass or bronze.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 12:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean, On second look, if it is scale length, how about FAMOCO – Famous Model Company – I believe located in Long Island City, Queens New York circa 1940s. I only have a shell packed away, but the remnants of the pantographs do not seem to match yours. Jim Heckard has a FAMOCO unit pictured in one of his albums here. W.Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23214	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)

Attachments : BeFunky_RS-1.2.jpg BeFunky_RS-1.1.jpg Hi Ralph B., Mike B., and All, Just thought I would post some photos of my circa 1969 Mehano Varney RS-11's and a Life Like RS-11 and C-415, and finally tell what I have learned about the RS-11 which was sold by Varney during its last days and the very end of the time period we here focus upon.     PART ONE: When I purchased my copy of David Spanagel's Greenberg's Guide to Varney,  I was particularly intrigued by the genesis of their RS-11, as I had always remembered the Varney RS-11 ads and reviews appearing in Railroad Model Craftsman, and possibly MR. This was only months before Varney was taken over by Life-Like, both firms in which the Kramer's had an interest.  When the model was commissioned by Sol Kramer in the last months of Varney operation, as detailed in Spanagel, it seems to have been was sold in two types of Varney packaging before it was sold as a Life-Like locomotive. Perhaps due to a lack of space or information, the RS-11 manufactured for Varney by Mehano did not receive much coverage in the guide, or perhaps he did not consider it to be a pure Varney model.   Varney RS 11's may be found in two different Varney boxes. In the first photo at right is their familiar later blue and white stripe box, with black and reverse white lettering. Across the bottom is simply stated "VARNEY, READY TO ROLL/HO" These RS – 11 boxes bear the Miami address on the back: Varney Model Manufacturing Co.,  3350 N.W. 48th St., Miami, Florida 33142 address and ironically states incorrectly on the box "MADE IN U.S.A." The end flaps of the blue box again simply state "VARNEY, READY TO ROLL/HO" and have the lower portion in white intended for an ID stamp which seemingly was not used for many later sets. I have one freight set with the matched Penn Central RS-11 and PC green "Northeast" style caboose and have seen another set with in Southern Pacific markings on eBay, but was outbid. The second style Varney box, intended for single item sales, is pictured under the blue box and at center. It is printed in orange, green and black with black and some reversed white outline lettering (what we now recognize as early Life-Like's colors.) The graphics at top state  "HO PULL POWER – SMOOTH AS SILK" with a drawing of a running tiger cat at upper right. On the left hand side of the window there is an illustration of a vertical worm, a geared axle and wheel with traction band and at lower left, a large letter "V" and in smaller letters, homage to Varney's beginnings:  "VARNEY - FIRST IN HO SINCE 1936" These second style, orange/green/black boxes have the Baltimore address: Varney Model Manufacturing company, Baltimore, Maryland 21211. The box accurately states "YUGOSLAVIA." The end flaps state in descending order, "Pull Power, RS 11 Diesel, HO Electric Locomotive, Green Bay and Western, and on the lowest line, Penn Central and Southern Pacific, each of the road names preceded by a check off box which was to be marked by pen indicating which model was packed inside. Dave Spanagel's book illustrates a "special" circus set  with a Penn Central RS-11 and cars inside a large "tray box" with similar orange/green/black colors. The RS-11's that immediately followed in Life-Like guise were boxed in the same familiar colors of orange/green/black print on a white box, shown at left. The cardboard is much smoother or shinier than the immediately preceding last Varney boxes and the model inside is accurately identified on the back as being "MANUFACTURED IN YUGOSLAVIA FOR: LIFE LIKE TRAINS, INC. BALTIMORE, MD 21211. U.S.A."  The words "PULL POWER." as on the last Varney box is prominently displayed, but the words "SMOOTH AS SILK" and the running tabby cat have both vanished!  Curiously, the Life-Like boxes containing the Yugoslavian-made Mehano models were printed by "Giacometti of Verona Italy. Verona is located about 95 miles west of Como, Italy where Rivarossi was located, and is midway between Como and Slovenia,  where the Mehano factory is located to the East. While the Varney and at least the early Life-Like versions of the Mehano RS-11 are packed in the same flexible yellow foam "trays" with foam backing attached and which show no signs of deteriorating over 45 years, I have only found the Varney packaged ones with large diameter gray plastic tubes slipped over their truck mounted couplers on both ends to avoid damage during shipment. A very nice touch in a fairly inexpensive locomotive's packaging which seems to have been discontinued after the Varney run. I had wondered if besides the packaging, if there was any other way to tell apart the Mehano RS-11's sold as Varney units or Life Like units.  I seem to have found two differences between the earliest and following runs, one easily identified externally.  I forgot to take that photo, so will tell the rest of the story on how to tell the difference between the two versions without their boxes, tomorrow in PART TWO.  In the mean time, my attached photos also show the  Life Like Alco C-415, formerly commissioned by and sold by ATT, at center in with its early Life-Like box at upper right.  Just to keep things straight, please understand that Varney never contracted for or sold the C-415 model, that came to the Life-Like line AFTER the demise of American Train & Track. I just happen to like showing and running both of these models of Alco prototypes together in their Penn Central colors. W. Jay Wanczyk (c) 2014 On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 10:41 AM, "Alpvalsys@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   W. Jay W. wrote: < Mehano also made the interesting Alco C-415 modern center cab for American Train and Track, ------------------------- I have one of those; picked it up at a train show many years ago.  A previous owner had done a very poor job of hand-pointing the BN paint scheme, and I haven't gotten around to repainting it.   I bought the model because I like the idea of center-cab switcher.  However, the prototype suffered from a number of issues, not the least of which was water leaks in the electrical cabinet.  The radiators were located in one end with the water lines passing through the cabinet to the engine which was in the other end of the unit.   Ralph Balfoort

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23215	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 9/23/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

I subscribe to Jay's reminder that  cottage industries such as Exacta/Central Lines for the most part dwindled, declined, and disappeared without fuss, feathers, sophistication, or formality- but perhaps not without sadness. Rod Miller in San Francisco prompted me to recall that it was Ray Waller who apparently held  the HO Central Lines/Exacta inventory that I purchased in 1962 at his shop in Mountain View.  I do not know now, nor can I recall then whether or not he held O, S, or even  OO inventory.  The space was small, so I would have thought that I probably would have noticed it if it was there. Rod has referred me to another person who might know more, and if so, I will pass it on. I looked in my own files, and I have distressingly little Exacta literature except for a copy of a 1946  catalogue, and a single instruction sheet.   The catalogue address is Vancouver Ave. Portland Oregon.  The company name is EXACTA.   In boxed flat sided kit inventory I have five plastic Central Lines cars in medium green boxes, and one Exacta copper side car in a lighter green slightly wider box, but all read *Central Lines, Los Gatos, CA.* Two of the CL kits are 75' Parlor Observations, as is the Exacta kit, i.e. they are identical except that the Exacta has the copper (vs. plastic) sides and ends. The Exacta car is partially assembled and is very handsome. By serendipity, none of the parlor-observation kits have instruction sheets! In response to Ray Wetzel's questions: I did not at the time purchase the Exacta/CL flat and or blank stock, nor the copper molds because  it would at the time (if not now) for me to be akin to taking on a free elephant. I was modeling, not collecting, not a wannabe model manufacturer or supplier, and not  the person to bring into our small home a pile of "iron" (Mrs. Anspach's likely term). to be dealt with. The mandrel for forming the streamlined cars to which I referred was one that I personally fabricated,   largely from Northeastern Scale Models materials.   Observations on building Exacta and Central Lines cars: The wood roofs and floors supplied for the heavyweight car kits, and the floors for the streamlined kits were of a very grainy softwood, and they split very easily and were difficult to finish.. However, the heavyweight and Old Timer roofs had very good proportional cross section, and were and are superior in this regard to either the old Walthers or J-C wood roofs, or to the still currently available Northeastern roofs.  On almost all of the streamlined cars, I substituted Northeastern basswood skirted floors, which -being slightly undersize- fit quite nicely. There were no shelves, lips, tabs, or anything else on the interiors of the shells to which the floors could be fastened or even  indexed as to position.  The only thing that I could find to secure the shells to the flooring was Pliobond or GOO, and neither really worked well (I still have sides pulling away). Now, I would probably use Barge Cement.  At least for me, soldering was not an option because of the plating, and on the one time that I  nonetheless attempted it, the copper wicked away the heat so fast, that I could never get solder to flow.   Keeping the sides parallel, even, and level was also a big chore, inasmuch as with the best of efforts and intentions, most of the formed bodies were slightly askew and/or irregular enough to fight efforts to level them relative to the floor.  Exacta supplied some crude formed bent steel strip cross section forms to keep the shape of the body and the position of the floor to the body, but these forms were not symmetrical, nor could they be used with the Northeastern flooring. I never used them.  Plating will reflect the state of the metal being plated, and if the substrate metal is dull, any resulting plated finish will also be dull.  The copper or zinc substrate of the Exacta cars was not polished (although presumed clean), and the resulted nickel plating was very dull (and also quite thin).  As a result, all of my cars have been stripped, polished and re-nickelled.  They look good, and hold their own. A rhetorical question:  did Exacta ever really produce all of  the extensive line of cars that they listed, much less in HO, OO, S. or O; not to mention 17/64 scale  (true O scale)? Denny            Denny S. Anspach, MD/ Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23216	From: greenbrier614	Date: 9/24/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)

Jay, thanks for that very detailed description. I recently obtained a MIB Life-Like D&H RS-11, and the glossy box matches your description to a tee. I knew it had to be an early run, since the ads on the back still include the Varney SW-7 and GG1. I also noticed on Tony Cook's site that the first Varney and Life-Like ads for the RS-11 tout a ball bearing motor as a selling point: RS-11 Diesel Locomotive RS-11 Diesel Locomotive Alco RS-11 Diesel Locomotive Burlington Northern  No. T232J No. 08309 View on tycotrain.tripod.com Preview by Yahoo   Can you verify this? I would love photos of the motor if you have an example. Bronze bearing versions of that power truck are infamous coffee grinders that were also used in the AHM RS-2, and the rest of their Mehano hood diesels, so that would explain the later removal of "smooth as silk" from the Life-Like packaging. The gray tubing protecting the couplers was also a feature in their packaging for AHM and ATT. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23217	From: greenbrier614	Date: 9/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Hi Ray, That's a very common mistake, since both companies were bound together by AHM, and they did have a tangled relationship, for e.g. the AHM C-Liner was introduced in 1963 with Mehano producing it under license from Rivarossi, who made the first version in 1952 in brass, cast, & Bakelite, and later versions for Lionel in 1957. Rivarossi continued to produce it through the 70's simultaneous with Mehano, but apparently only for the European market, as later examples are very rare here, but do exist in the catalogs on Rivarossi Memory. The Rivarossi & Mehano drives were both rear truck vertical drives, but that's where the similarities ended. The best rule of thumb is that if it's marked 'Italy' it's Rivarossi (plus Rivarossi branded just about every part it produced), and if it says 'Yugoslavia' it's Mehano. Mehano locos of that era could also have been marked 'Tempo,' 'Atest,' or 'Izola,' which is the small city where they were based in what was then Yugoslavia. Rivarossi was the Cadillac of the AHM line, and produced all steam except for the U25C, E8, Krauss Maffei and GG1. Mehano produced nothing but lower tier diesels until the late 70's, when they introduced a light Pacific and Mikado. After the relationship between Bernie Paul and Rivarossi soured, Paul & co. worked with Mehano to produce a line of nice running steamers that beat Rivarossi for reliability for the rebranded IHC line. Clear as mud, right? Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23218	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 9/24/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/ATT (was Rivarossi FNM....)

Attachments : RS-11 Varney vs. Life-Like 1.0.png BeFunky_RS-11 Varney vs.jpg.jpg Hi Nelson, and All,  First, thanks for pointing out the information about the motors.  I am intrigued enough to take a closer look  when I have time this weekend!  But as promised yesterday, here are the two differences I discovered between the earliest run of the RS-11's manufactured by Mehano for Varney and the units I have from the early Life-Like boxes.    FIRST DIFFERENCE - COUNTRY OF ORIGIN MARKING LOCATION: I commented yesterday that the Varney blue-stripe boxes that the RS-11's were packed in for the freight sets stated incorrectly - "MADE IN USA" while the RS-11's packaged by Varney for individual sale correctly stated "YUGOSLAVIA" on the back. US law and customs is fairly strict on the matter.    In examining my boxed Varney RS-11's in both the blue-strip and orange, green and black boxes, I first noticed that their seemed to be no country of origin indicated.  Then I moved the lead truck and saw that molded into the frame under the rear portion of the lead truck, next to the forward edge of the fuel tank was "YUGOSLAVIA." This is illustrated in the attached close up photo of two under frames, with Varney boxed RS-11 on the left. The country name is very difficult to see and perhaps frowned upon by customs, as I understand it, the law indicates country of origin must be plainly marked.     In comparing it to my two orange, green and black boxed Life-Like RS-11's, I quickly noticed that the original location of  "Yugoslavia" was neatly machined off of the mold at its original location, leaving an elongated "patch" and the country of origin was re-engraved into the mold at the bottom of the fuel tank where it could be plainly seen.  That work would have necessitated removing the multi-part mold from the injection molding machine, so we seem to have an identifiable difference between first and later runs. So it is a strong possibility that all Varney sold RS-11's, the first run in Green Bay & Western, Penn Central and Southern Pacific road names, should be marked with the partially hidden country of origin under the truck.  The first Run of Life-Like RS-11's was in the same three road names.   SECOND DIFFERENCE - WORM DRIVE COLOR: MY second attached photo tonight shows top to bottom, three Varney boxed RS-11's, one Life-Like RS-11 and a Varney C-415.  I only noticed this difference when I partially disassembled the trucks to replace the traction bands.  All of my Varney packaged RS-11's have RED worms and black idler gears and geared axels.    In the two boxed Like Life examples I have, (only one is shown in the photo) the worm drives are BLUE.  I have no idea of the significance of the change in colors, other than it, like the change in location of the country of origin, could have occurred between first and second runs, when the molds were removed, i.e. between those ordered for initial Varney sale and those ordered for later Life-Like sale.   For the sake of it, I opened up the sole Life-Like C-415 and noticed it has a RED worm, black idler gears,  but also RED geared axles, pictured at bottom. I don't have the earlier ATT version- yet!  I suppose for now that the worm gear color varied from production batch to batch, based upon the available raw plastics used in the molding process.   At least for now, I can theorize that all the Varney commissioned, boxed and advertised RS-11's should all have "Yugoslavia" marked on the chassis under the truck and a red worm drive. Second Mehano runs, ordered and sold as Life-Like should have "Yugoslavia" marked on the bottom of the fuel tanks and at least initially have blue worm drives. It could be possible that leftovers from the initial run were packaged as Life-Like, but in theory, Varney RS-11's should not show any  of the later changes, especially the mold change.     And now Nelson brings up another, a third possible difference regarding the ball bearing vs. bronze bearing motors - to be continued...    Again, thanks for bearing with me on this preliminary examination and theories on how to tell the Varney edition from later Life-Like production of the Mehano RS-11's.  If there were no physical differences other than the packaging, the locomotive would just be barely a footnote to Varney's last chapter; but besides always likening the model, I reasoned that if production could be could be told apart,  Varney vs. Life-Like, it had a more important of a place in Varney history as being considered the very last Varney locomotive, in the fashion of today's many models being commissioned by American firms for overseas production.  If it were not for the Varney connection, I would have not posted it here on our Vintage HO pages.  Eventually I hope to create a more complete article with additional information  from other members and post it in our files section.  If anyone has difficulty in seeing the photos, I also have posted them separately to a dedicated album here.  Jay - W. Jay Wanczyk (c) 2014          On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 4:06 PM, "greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Jay, thanks for that very detailed description. I recently obtained a MIB Life-Like D&H RS-11, and the glossy box matches your description to a tee. I knew it had to be an early run, since the ads on the back still include the Varney SW-7 and GG1. I also noticed on Tony Cook's site that the first Varney and Life-Like ads for the RS-11 tout a ball bearing motor as a selling point: RS-11 Diesel Locomotive RS-11 Diesel Locomotive Alco RS-11 Diesel Locomotive Burlington Northern  No. T232J No. 08309 View on tycotrain.tripod.com Preview by Yahoo   Can you verify this? I would love photos of the motor if you have an example. Bronze bearing versions of that power truck are infamous coffee grinders that were also used in the AHM RS-2, and the rest of their Mehano hood diesels, so that would explain the later removal of "smooth as silk" from the Life-Like packaging. The gray tubing protecting the couplers was also a feature in their packaging for AHM and ATT. Nelson

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23219	From: anypaddler	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/Varney Alco RS-11

A couple of things I noticed on the model are the details that show a unit equipped with both dynamic brakes (the raised hatches in the middle of the long hood, plus extra grills along the top of the sides) and a steam generator (intake filter and exhaust pipe on the short hood).  Not all prototype units had either of these, let alone both.  But then, Athearn's F-7 featured both, along with the second headlight opening in the nose door.   Ralph Balfoort

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23220	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

Attachments : 15326110436_3593ddf1b3_b.jpg 15162618677_eb415725a4_o.jpg 15162617527_790814e5a8_o.jpg 15162444590_652262edde_c.jpg 15162382259_b2bdd542af_o.jpg W. Jay & Ray, The mystery engine according to the USPS is out for delivery, so it should be home when I get home from work. I am pretty convinced now that it is a George Stock model. I will look at it closer when I get home, but I am willing to bet it may just be a very early casting.  I did take a few pictures of my other George Stock brass GG1 engine this morning and posted them to Flickr. In my box of FAMOCO parts, I was pretty excited to see I also had a pair of George Stock chassis, motors & drivers. That was a unique find! You know it is bad when you have so many boxes full of stuff and you don't have a clue what is all in them all.   I've attached a couple here....    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Hi Sean,   Yes, You're right; that your mystery GG-1 is of cast brass, it momentarily went past me when I suggested FAMOCO.  My FAMOCO GG-1 is also die cast zamak so I should have known but just wasn't thinking straight.  Is there a chance that the builder might have filed the raised keystone off (of a Schrader) and smoothed out the casting, the same as Jim had to do with his Conover 2-10-2?  Just can't think of what else it could be.  Maybe Jim Heckard might know when you talk to him.  Please give him my best regards.   Ray W.      In a message dated 9/23/2014 3:57:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello W. Ray, I also have a box of FAMOCO parts. This does not match them... See attached pic of the FAMOCO models I have. The pantographs were made of die cast metal. The shells of those models were die cast zimax and not brass or bronze.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 12:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean, On second look, if it is scale length, how about FAMOCO – Famous Model Company – I believe located in Long Island City, Queens New York circa 1940s. I only have a shell packed away, but the remnants of the pantographs do not seem to match yours. Jim Heckard has a FAMOCO unit pictured in one of his albums here. W.Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23221	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mehano/Varney Alco RS-11

Hi Ralph B., and All, An interesting observation. Penn Central 7600 was originally New York Central 8000, and in checking prototype photographs online, I can't say with certainty that 7600 had dynamic brakes, although a number of Penn Central RS–11's numbered several units above it did have them. It is clear though that 7600 did not have a steam generator. It was much more difficult for manufacturers to obtain accurate plans and information in the era before historical societies and the Internet made that information so much more accessible. It is no accident that many early manufacturers used plans in the Model Railroader Cyclopedia from the 40s as well both model magazines even though they were later recognized to be sometimes in error, mixing and matching details. And manufactures paid little attention to differences between options on a given type of locomotive. Having one plan was enough – one type fit all roads, so to speak. An interesting side story about the Athearn - F7 with twin-upper and lower headlights. Irv. Athearn finally modified the dies to eliminate the lower headlight, but only upon the combined insistence of Irv. Belkin of Bel-Bel and his contracted custom painter – Ray Threfall of C&M Shops during a protracted three-way cross country telephone conversation. The reason for a elimination of the lower headlight was that most of the Eastern roads F7's did not have the lower headlight opening and Bev-Bel could sell many more of the correct single headlight models. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23222	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

Sean, can't wait to see it as well. It is interesting to see that Stock had marked the weight with his name, but apparently not the bronze castings. Or maybe there is some mark inside? Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23223	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1

Jay, I'll be sure to post pictures. BTW... That "STOCK" marking is on top of the chassis frame rail, just above the pilot/trailing truck. There was no weight with mine. No need I guess. It is a pretty heavy engine already.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean, can't wait to see it as well. It is interesting to see that Stock had marked the weight with his name, but apparently not the bronze castings. Or maybe there is some mark inside? Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23224	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1 [5 Attachments]

Sean,   I'll take a moment to reply here, only as it shouldn't take me much time.  There are a couple of other posts here which I know will take me more time that I've had in these last couple of days because of more pressing matters, so I'll try on them tomorrow.    George Stock makes perfect sense, but when you said it wasn't one from that manufacturer, that didn't leave much after eliminating the others that were suggested.  I was just about to suggest your researching Alexander and Baldwin, two O Scale GG1 manufacturers.  Not knowing much about them myself, the thought occurred to me that perhaps one of them made a GG1 in HO.  I know Alexander's O scale GG1 is cast brass/bronze; I'm not sure about there Baldwin hobby company's GG1.   Yeah, it's a real pity when a model's junk box(es) becomes a collection of valuable vintage stuff !.  Even more of a shame when you don't have the first clue that they could contain the very thing you need < g >.    Ray W.       In a message dated 9/25/2014 1:23:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   W. Jay & Ray, The mystery engine according to the USPS is out for delivery, so it should be home when I get home from work. I am pretty convinced now that it is a George Stock model. I will look at it closer when I get home, but I am willing to bet it may just be a very early casting.  I did take a few pictures of my other George Stock brass GG1 engine this morning and posted them to Flickr. In my box of FAMOCO parts, I was pretty excited to see I also had a pair of George Stock chassis, motors & drivers. That was a unique find! You know it is bad when you have so many boxes full of stuff and you don't have a clue what is all in them all.   I've attached a couple here....    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Hi Sean,   Yes, You're right; that your mystery GG-1 is of cast brass, it momentarily went past me when I suggested FAMOCO.  My FAMOCO GG-1 is also die cast zamak so I should have known but just wasn't thinking straight.  Is there a chance that the builder might have filed the raised keystone off (of a Schrader) and smoothed out the casting, the same as Jim had to do with his Conover 2-10-2?  Just can't think of what else it could be.  Maybe Jim Heckard might know when you talk to him.  Please give him my best regards.   Ray W.      In a message dated 9/23/2014 3:57:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello W. Ray, I also have a box of FAMOCO parts. This does not match them... See attached pic of the FAMOCO models I have. The pantographs were made of die cast metal. The shells of those models were die cast zimax and not brass or bronze.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 12:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean, On second look, if it is scale length, how about FAMOCO – Famous Model Company – I believe located in Long Island City, Queens New York circa 1940s. I only have a shell packed away, but the remnants of the pantographs do not seem to match yours. Jim Heckard has a FAMOCO unit pictured in one of his albums here. W.Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23225	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

At this point in time, we're probably unable to know much more about Ray Waller, or even if he may have been an ex-Central Lines employee, but at least we can now know who last held this inventory before it was dispersed.  This 1946 Portland Oregon Exacta catalog that Doc Denny mentions may well have been the very first one issued by this manufacturer being advertised for distribution in their first ad with MR magazine in April of that year.  However, and it's unclear why Exacta would issue a second catalog so sooner, this manufacturer advertised in their May '46 ad; "New Revised Catalog Now Ready. . . Write Now!"  The following month's (June) ad read the same, but after that, they only solicited a catalog (with no mention of a revision).  Makes one wonder if they've been in business for much earlier than they first started advertising with MR, however, if they needed to revise their catalog (or maybe they just wanted to appear that they were established longer).  As far as we can know though, the Portland address appears to be their first one, going by their MR ads and by the catalog which Doc Denny owns and is most likely their initial location.         It's unfortunate but understandable that flat/blank Exacta bodies were not also obtained at that time, but at least the desired pieces were purchased.  This Exacta mandrel is now appearing to be even more similar to the similarly-fashioned Kemtron Centipede tool, in that it was home-made.  I hadn't thought of that as I don't quite understand the need for that unless flat stock was bought, although perhaps for further rolling of the sides-roof area to ensure more parallel sides.  It was the mandrel which brought to mind the flat stock, however.   The construction procedure outlined below is interesting and informative and the comparison of the heavyweight and Old Timer roofs to those of Walthers, J-C Silversides and Northeastern is enlightening.  Without tabs or lips of any kind to position the floor in those streamliners, it was admittedly difficult to build these cars, as is notably written, especially with any consistency of the floors' heights from car to car.   In comparing Central Lines' literature and catalogs with early 1950's Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalogs, Carmen Webster listed everything in H0 scale that Central Lines' literature shows, with exception of the #600 Indiana Traction Combine, the #602 Interurban and the 40' and 45' 1863 & 1866 B&O cars.  While it's still possible that these last items were made, Ma Webster didn't carry them.      I have no Central Lines catalogs on any other scale to compare Model R.R. Equipment Corp. listings to, so I have no idea if everything that Model R.R. Equipment Corp. listed for other scales include everything in Central Lines' other scale catalogs, or whether Webster's listings in these scales was the extent of Central Lines production.  The listings for "0" scale and for "S" scale by Ma Webster were fairly extensive though, and included the same number (9) and types of passenger cars in the Streamline corrugated Budd style and the Streamline smooth-side Pullman type styles that were offered in "H0."  The Standard car series was conspicuously absent though in "0" and "S" scales, as were the Interurbans and the trolley.  Curiously, Ma Webster didn't list any Central Lines "00" scale models, although her section on that scale was limited.  I think it's reasonable to believe that if Model R.R. Equipment Corp. had been offering the Central Lines models for at least several years, that they most likely were produced.       Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/24/2014 1:45:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I subscribe to Jay's reminder that  cottage industries such as Exacta/Central Lines for the most part dwindled, declined, and disappeared without fuss, feathers, sophistication, or formality- but perhaps not without sadness. Rod Miller in San Francisco prompted me to recall that it was Ray Waller who apparently held  the HO Central Lines/Exacta inventory that I purchased in 1962 at his shop in Mountain View.  I do not know now, nor can I recall then whether or not he held O, S, or even  OO inventory.  The space was small, so I would have thought that I probably would have noticed it if it was there. Rod has referred me to another person who might know more, and if so, I will pass it on. I looked in my own files, and I have distressingly little Exacta literature except for a copy of a 1946  catalogue, and a single instruction sheet.   The catalogue address is Vancou ver Ave. Portland Oregon.  The company name is EXACTA.   In boxed flat sided kit inventory I have five plastic Central Lines cars in medium green boxes, and one Exacta copper side car in a lighter green slightly wider box, but all read *Central Lines, Los Gatos, CA.* Two of the CL kits are 75' Parlor Observations, as is the Exacta kit, i.e. they are identical except that the Exacta has the copper (vs. plastic) sides and ends. The Exacta car is partially assembled and is very handsome. By serendipity, none of the parlor-observation kits have instruction sheets! In response to Ray Wetzel's questions: I did not at the time purchase the Exacta/CL flat and or blank stock, nor the copper molds because  it would at the time (if not now) for me to be akin to taking on a free elephant. I was modeling, not collecting, not a wannabe model manufacturer or supplier, and not  the person to bring into our small home a pile of "iron" (Mrs. Anspach's likely term). to be dealt with. The mandrel for forming the streamlined cars to which I referred was one that I personally fabricated,   largely from Northeastern Scale Models materials.   Observations on building Exacta and Central Lines cars: The wood roofs and floors supplied for the heavyweight car kits, and the floors for the streamlined kits were of a very grainy softwood, and they split very easily and were difficult to finish.. However, the heavyweight and Old Timer roofs had very good proportional cross section, and were and are superior in this regard to either the old Walthers or J-C wood roofs, or to the still currently available Northeastern roofs.  On almost all of the streamlined cars, I substituted Northeastern basswood skirted floors, which -being slightly undersize- fit quite nicely. There were no shelves, lips, tabs, or anything else on the interiors of the shells to which the floors could be fastened or even  indexed as to position.  The only thing that I could find to secure the shells to the flooring was Pliobond or GOO, and neither really worked well (I still have sides pulling away). Now, I would probably use Barge Cement.  At least for me, soldering was not an option because of the plating, and on the one time that I  nonetheless attempted it, the copper wicked away the heat so fast, that I could never get solder to flow.   Keeping the sides parallel, even, and level was also a big chore, inasmuch as with the best of efforts and intentions, most of the formed bodies were slightly askew and/or irregular enough to fight efforts to level them relative to the floor.  Exacta supplied some crude formed bent steel strip cross section forms to keep the shape of the body and the posit ion of the floor to the body, but these forms were not symmetrical, nor could they be used with the Northeastern flooring. I never used them.  Plating will reflect the state of the metal being plated, and if the substrate metal is dull, any resulting plated finish will also be dull.  The copper or zinc substrate of the Exacta cars was not polished (although presumed clean), and the resulted nickel plating was very dull (and also quite thin).  As a result, all of my cars have been stripped, polished and re-nickelled.  They look good, and hold their own. A rhetorical question:  did Exacta ever really produce all of  the extensive line of cars that they listed, much less in HO, OO, S. or O; not to mention 17/64 scale  (true O scale)? Denny            < div apple="true"> Denny S. Anspach, MD/ Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23226	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

I have an unbuilt Paul Moore kit found about a year ago that has the Exacta tech made sides and ends. I don't recall if it was labeled for an I.T. car. But it sure looks like one. I'm not certain just where it is sitting at the moment.  I shall look for it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: At this point in time, we're probably unable to know much more about Ray Waller, or even if he may have been an ex-Central Lines employee, but at least we can now know who last held this inventory before it was dispersed.  This 1946 Portland Oregon Exacta catalog that Doc Denny mentions may well have been the very first one issued by this manufacturer being advertised for distribution in their first ad with MR magazine in April of that year.  However, and it's unclear why Exacta would issue a second catalog so sooner, this manufacturer advertised in their May '46 ad; "New Revised Catalog Now Ready. . . Write Now!"  The following month's (June) ad read the same, but after that, they only solicited a catalog (with no mention of a revision).  Makes one wonder if they've been in business for much earlier than they first started advertising with MR, however, if they needed to revise their catalog (or maybe they just wanted to appear that they were established longer).  As far as we can know though, the Portland address appears to be their first one, going by their MR ads and by the catalog which Doc Denny owns and is most likely their initial location.         It's unfortunate but understandable that flat/blank Exacta bodies were not also obtained at that time, but at least the desired pieces were purchased.  This Exacta mandrel is now appearing to be even more similar to the similarly-fashioned Kemtron Centipede tool, in that it was home-made.  I hadn't thought of that as I don't quite understand the need for that unless flat stock was bought, although perhaps for further rolling of the sides-roof area to ensure more parallel sides.  It was the mandrel which brought to mind the flat stock, however.   The construction procedure outlined below is interesting and informative and the comparison of the heavyweight and Old Timer roofs to those of Walthers, J-C Silversides and Northeastern is enlightening.  Without tabs or lips of any kind to position the floor in those streamliners, it was admittedly difficult to build these cars, as is notably written, especially with any consistency of the floors' heights from car to car.   In comparing Central Lines' literature and catalogs with early 1950's Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalogs, Carmen Webster listed everything in H0 scale that Central Lines' literature shows, with exception of the #600 Indiana Traction Combine, the #602 Interurban and the 40' and 45' 1863 & 1866 B&O cars.  While it's still possible that these last items were made, Ma Webster didn't carry them.      I have no Central Lines catalogs on any other scale to compare Model R.R. Equipment Corp. listings to, so I have no idea if everything that Model R.R. Equipment Corp. listed for other scales include everything in Central Lines' other scale catalogs, or whether Webster's listings in these scales was the extent of Central Lines production.  The listings for "0" scale and for "S" scale by Ma Webster were fairly extensive though, and included the same number (9) and types of passenger cars in the Streamline corrugated Budd style and the Streamline smooth-side Pullman type styles that were offered in "H0."  The Standard car series was conspicuously absent though in "0" and "S" scales, as were the Interurbans and the trolley.  Curiously, Ma Webster didn't list any Central Lines "00" scale models, although her section on that scale was limited.  I think it's reasonable to believe that if Model R.R. Equipment Corp. had been offering the Central Lines models for at least several years, that they most likely were produced.       Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/24/2014 1:45:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: I subscribe to Jay's reminder that  cottage industries such as Exacta/Central Lines for the most part dwindled, declined, and disappeared without fuss, feathers, sophistication, or formality- but perhaps not without sadness. Rod Miller in San Francisco prompted me to recall that it was Ray Waller who apparently held  the HO Central Lines/Exacta inventory that I purchased in 1962 at his shop in Mountain View.  I do not know now, nor can I recall then whether or not he held O, S, or even  OO inventory.  The space was small, so I would have thought that I probably would have noticed it if it was there. Rod has referred me to another person who might know more, and if so, I will pass it on. I looked in my own files, and I have distressingly little Exacta literature except for a copy of a 1946  catalogue, and a single instruction sheet.   The catalogue address is Vancou ver Ave. Portland Oregon.  The company name is EXACTA.   In boxed flat sided kit inventory I have five plastic Central Lines cars in medium green boxes, and one Exacta copper side car in a lighter green slightly wider box, but all read *Central Lines, Los Gatos, CA.* Two of the CL kits are 75' Parlor Observations, as is the Exacta kit, i.e. they are identical except that the Exacta has the copper (vs. plastic) sides and ends. The Exacta car is partially assembled and is very handsome. By serendipity, none of the parlor-observation kits have instruction sheets! In response to Ray Wetzel's questions: I did not at the time purchase the Exacta/CL flat and or blank stock, nor the copper molds because  it would at the time (if not now) for me to be akin to taking on a free elephant. I was modeling, not collecting, not a wannabe model manufacturer or supplier, and not  the person to bring into our small home a pile of "iron" (Mrs. Anspach's likely term). to be dealt with. The mandrel for forming the streamlined cars to which I referred was one that I personally fabricated,   largely from Northeastern Scale Models materials.   Observations on building Exacta and Central Lines cars: The wood roofs and floors supplied for the heavyweight car kits, and the floors for the streamlined kits were of a very grainy softwood, and they split very easily and were difficult to finish.. However, the heavyweight and Old Timer roofs had very good proportional cross section, and were and are superior in this regard to either the old Walthers or J-C wood roofs, or to the still currently available Northeastern roofs.  On almost all of the streamlined cars, I substituted Northeastern basswood skirted floors, which -being slightly undersize- fit quite nicely. There were no shelves, lips, tabs, or anything else on the interiors of the shells to which the floors could be fastened or even  indexed as to position.  The only thing that I could find to secure the shells to the flooring was Pliobond or GOO, and neither really worked well (I still have sides pulling away). Now, I would probably use Barge Cement.  At least for me, soldering was not an option because of the plating, and on the one time that I  nonetheless attempted it, the copper wicked away the heat so fast, that I could never get solder to flow.   Keeping the sides parallel, even, and level was also a big chore, inasmuch as with the best of efforts and intentions, most of the formed bodies were slightly askew and/or irregular enough to fight efforts to level them relative to the floor.  Exacta supplied some crude formed bent steel strip cross section forms to keep the shape of the body and the posit ion of the floor to the body, but these forms were not symmetrical, nor could they be used with the Northeastern flooring. I never used them.  Plating will reflect the state of the metal being plated, and if the substrate metal is dull, any resulting plated finish will also be dull.  The copper or zinc substrate of the Exacta cars was not polished (although presumed clean), and the resulted nickel plating was very dull (and also quite thin).  As a result, all of my cars have been stripped, polished and re-nickelled.  They look good, and hold their own. A rhetorical question:  did Exacta ever really produce all of  the extensive line of cars that they listed, much less in HO, OO, S. or O; not to mention 17/64 scale  (true O scale)? Denny            < div apple="true"> Denny S. Anspach, MD/ Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23227	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

The early 1950's Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalogs offered a bunch of Paul Moore interurbans, with several street cars and diesel electrics, although no Illinois Traction car are listed.  Could just be that Paul Moore produced them at another time. if he did make them.  If it's of any help, I'm listing the Paul Moore products here below, that Carmen Webster carried during that era:   Interurbans   Union Traction Combine (wood) Buckeye Special (Old Style, wood) New York State Interurban (Old Style, wood) North Shore/CNS&M Coach (Arch Window) North Shore/CNS&M Coach (wood) North Shore/CNS&M Coach (modern) North Shore/CNS&M Trailer Pacific Electric, 1449 Class Express Car Pacific Electric 50' Arch Roof Coach Pacific Electric Coaches, choice of 465, 800, 900, 100 and 1700 Barney Smith (Old Style. wood) Texas Electric Coach (wood) Waterloo, Cedar Falls & Northern Parlor Car Cincinnati & Lake Erie Express Car Milwaukee Electric Coach M.E. Coach O.T. Coach Coach (Moore catalog # MU 60) Heavy Coach (Moore catalog #340)   Multi Unit Cars   Diesel Electric Coach, streamline Diesel Electric Combine, streamline   Street Cars   4-Wheel Birney -- choice of less power  trucks or Taylor power trucks Gay Nineties Car -- choice of less power trucks or Taylor power trucks   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/26/2014 12:39:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I have an unbuilt Paul Moore kit found about a year ago that has the Exacta tech made sides and ends. I don't recall if it was labeled for an I.T. car. But it sure looks like one. I'm not certain just where it is sitting at the moment.  I shall look for it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: At this point in time, we're probably unable to know much more about Ray Waller, or even if he may have been an ex-Central Lines employee, but at least we can now know who last held this inventory before it was dispersed.  This 1946 Portland Oregon Exacta catalog that Doc Denny mentions may well have been the very first one issu ed by this manufacturer being advertised for distribution in their first ad with MR magazine in April of that year.  However, and it's unclear why Exacta would issue a second catalog so sooner, this manufacturer advertised in their May '46 ad; "New Revised Catalog Now Ready. . . Write Now!"  The following month's (June) ad read the same, but after that, they only solicited a catalog (with no mention of a revision).  Makes one wonder if they've been in business for much earlier than they first started advertising with MR, however, if they needed to revise their catalog (or maybe they just wanted to appear that they were established longer).  As far as we can know though, the Portland address appears to be their first one, going by their MR ads and by the catalog which Doc Denny owns and is most likely their initial location.         It's unfort unate but understandable that flat/blank Exacta bodies were not also obtained at that time, but at least the desired pieces were purchased.  This Exacta mandrel is now appearing to be even more similar to the similarly-fashioned Kemtron Centipede tool, in that it was home-made.  I hadn't thought of that as I don't quite understand the need for that unless flat stock was bought, although perhaps for further rolling of the sides-roof area to ensure more parallel sides.  It was the mandrel which brought to mind the flat stock, however.   The construction procedure outlined below is interesting and informative and the comparison of the heavyweight and Old Timer roofs to those of Walthers, J-C Silversides and Northeastern is enlightening.  Without tabs or lips of any kind to position the floor in those streamliners, it was admittedly difficult to build these cars, as is notably written, especially with any consistency of the floors' heights from car to car.   In comparing Central Lines' literature and catalogs with early 1950's Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalogs, Carmen Webster listed everything in H0 scale that Central Lines' literature shows, with exception of the #600 Indiana Traction Combine, the #602 Interurban and the 40' and 45' 1863 & 1866 B&O cars.  While it's still possible that these last items were made, Ma Webster didn't carry them.      I have no Central Lines catalogs on any other scale to compare Model R.R. Equipment Corp. listings to, so I have no idea if everything that Model R.R. Equipment Corp. listed for other scales include everything in Central Lines' other scale catalogs, or whether Webster's listings in these scales was the extent of Central Lines production.  The listings for "0" scale and for "S" scale by Ma Webster were fairly extensive though, and included the same number (9) and types of passenger cars in the Streamline corrugated Budd style and the Streamline smooth-side Pullman type styles that were offered in "H0."  The Standard car series was conspicuously absent though in "0" and "S" scales, as were the Interurbans and the trolley.  Curiously, Ma Webster didn't list any Central Lines "00" scale models, although her section on that scale was limited.  I think it's reasonable to believe that if Model R.R. Equipment Corp. had been offering the Central Lines models for at least several years, that they most likely were produced.       Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/24/2014 1:4 5:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: I subscribe to Jay's reminder that  cottage industries such as Exacta/Central Lines for the most part dwindled, declined, and disappeared without fuss, feathers, sophistication, or formality- but perhaps not without sadness. Rod Miller in San Francisco prompted me to recall that it was Ray Waller who apparently held  the HO Central Lines/Exacta inventory that I purchased in 1962 at his shop in Mountain View.  I do not know now, nor can I recall then whether or not he held O, S, or ev en  OO inventory.  The space was small, so I would have thought that I probably would have noticed it if it was there. Rod has referred me to another person who might know more, and if so, I will pass it on. I looked in my own files, and I have distressingly little Exacta literature except for a copy of a 1946  catalogue, and a single instruction sheet.   The catalogue address is Vancou ver Ave. Portland Oregon.  The company name is EXACTA.   In boxed flat sided kit inventory I have five plastic Central Lines cars in medium green boxes, and one Exacta copper side car in a lighter green slightly wider box, but all read *Central Lines, Los Gatos, CA.* Two of the CL kits are 75' Parlor Observations, as is the Exacta kit, i.e. they are identical except that the Exacta has the copper (vs. plastic) sides and ends. The Exacta car is partially assembled and is very handsome. By s erendipity, none of the parlor-observation kits have instruction sheets! In response to Ray Wetzel's questions: I did not at the time purchase the Exacta/CL flat and or blank stock, nor the copper molds because  it would at the time (if not now) for me to be akin to taking on a free elephant. I was modeling, not collecting, not a wannabe model manufacturer or supplier, and not  the person to bring into our small home a pile of "iron" (Mrs. Anspach's likely term). to be dealt with. The mandrel for forming the streamlined cars to which I referred was one that I personally fabricated,   largely from Northeastern Scale Models materials.   Observations on building Exacta and Central Lines cars: The wood roofs and floors supplied for the heavyweight car kits, and the floors for the streamlined kits were of a very grainy softwood, and they split very easily and were difficult to finish.. However, the heavyweight and Old Timer roofs had very good proportional cross section, and were and are superior in this regard to either the old Walthers or J-C wood roofs, or to the still currently available Northeastern roofs.  On almost all of the streamlined cars, I substituted Northeastern basswood skirted floors, which -being slightly undersize- fit quite nicely. There were no shelves, lips, tabs, or anything else on the interiors of the shells to which the floors could be fastened or even  indexed as to position.  The only thing that I could find to secure the shells to the flooring was Pliobond or GOO, and neither really worked well (I still have sides pulling away). Now, I would probably use Barge Cement.  At least for me, soldering was not an option because of the plating, and on the one time that I  nonetheless attempted it, the copper wicked away the heat so fast, that I could never get solder to flow.   Keeping the sides parallel, even, and level was also a big chore, inasmuch as with the best of efforts and intentions, most of the formed bodies were slightly askew and/or irregular enough to fight efforts to level them relative to the floor.  Exacta supplied some crude formed bent steel strip cross section forms to keep the shape of the body and the posit ion of the floor to the body, but these forms were not symmetrical, nor could they be used with the Northeastern flooring. I never used them.  Plating will reflect the state of the metal being plated, and if the substrate metal is dull, any resulting plated finish will also be dull.  The copper or zinc substrate of the Exacta cars was not polished (although presumed clean), and the resulted nickel plating was very dull (and also quite thin).  As a result, all of my cars have bee n stripped, polished and re-nickelled.  They look good, and hold their own. A rhetorical question:  did Exacta ever really produce all of  the extensive line of cars that they listed, much less in HO, OO, S. or O; not to mention 17/64 scale  (true O scale)? Denny            < div apple="true"> Denny S. Anspach, MD/ Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23228	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good value?

I've never been a brass collector. I suppose it's largely due to cost, but I sure have admired them over the last several decades. At a recent railroad Convention, I had a nice visit with a fellow seemingly conversant with the, "brass world." I happened to mention that, although I am not much of a follower of Santa Fe, they sure had a nice looking Consolidation that appeared to have been modeled a lot. He said that PFM/United imported so many of those particular units for so many years, that they sell often and for affordable prices. About $100 give or take if one watches a bit. That caught my attention because if I quit buying Varney and Mantua for a bit, I can almost afford one. I wouldn't run it a lot, and I do realize those earlier mechanisms are a far cry from today's standard can motors, etc. I've watched a few auctions and I think he might be right. There are always a few in the $250+ range, but some are less. I did see a Sunset version, and it had brake rigging on the drivers that the United model did not have. Plus a can motor. So I am sure there are detail and power considerations between various importers. Anyone have comments? Evidently the United models were imported from around 1956 clear until around 1970'ish. The last ones having can motors. I'd enjoy having one, and might fit my dismal retirement budget. And it would not have to be absolute perfect. Painted preferred. I see one on ebay now at $75. Who knows where the price will go, but I'm thinking about bidding on it. Of course if I peak interest on this List too much, I'll create my own competition. (grin) Are these really good buys? Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23229	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 9/26/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

This is interesting in the extreme............ At least for me. I see that the things I think of as Pauls ACF streamliners are listed as...... > Multi Unit Cars > > Diesel Electric Coach, streamline > Diesel Electric Combine, streamline As near as I have been able to tell so far, those were only made for a very, very few years and have very rarely turned up at any of the swaps or eBay. I've seen the auctions I didn't win [one or two of these units], but with an image of the kit blueprints. I got a 1949 [?] P.M. catalog in a kit I found and that is the only other place I've seen drawings of the 4-6 types of ACF streamliners that Paul made. Actually there were just the two kits, as best I know, with options to build in a few ways. Between the partial blueprint image and the catalog thumbs, I like to think I've got enough to make my own versions of the lost to me P.M. ACF streamliners. Beyond that, I never knew that anyone carried Paul's kits. I had thought he only sold direct all those years. So was the impression I got from his frequent compact ads. Many thanks for your posting. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Sep 26, 2014, at 1:21 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > The early 1950's Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalogs offered a bunch of Paul Moore interurbans, with several street cars and diesel electrics, although no Illinois Traction car are listed. Could just be that Paul Moore produced them at another time. if he did make them. If it's of any help, I'm listing the Paul Moore products here below, that Carmen Webster carried during that era: > > Interurbans > > Union Traction Combine (wood) > Buckeye Special (Old Style, wood) > New York State Interurban (Old Style, wood) > North Shore/CNS&M Coach (Arch Window) > North Shore/CNS&M Coach (wood) > North Shore/CNS&M Coach (modern) > North Shore/CNS&M Trailer > Pacific Electric, 1449 Class Express Car > Pacific Electric 50' Arch Roof Coach > Pacific Electric Coaches, choice of 465, 800, 900, 100 and 1700 > Barney Smith (Old Style. wood) > Texas Electric Coach (wood) > Waterloo, Cedar Falls & Northern Parlor Car > Cincinnati & Lake Erie Express Car > Milwaukee Electric Coach > M.E. Coach > O.T. Coach > Coach (Moore catalog # MU 60) > Heavy Coach (Moore catalog #340) > > Multi Unit Cars > > Diesel Electric Coach, streamline > Diesel Electric Combine, streamline > > Street Cars > > 4-Wheel Birney -- choice of less power trucks or Taylor power trucks > Gay Nineties Car -- choice of less power trucks or Taylor power trucks > > Ray Wetzel > > > In a message dated 9/26/2014 12:39:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I have an unbuilt Paul Moore kit found about a year ago that has the Exacta tech made sides and ends. I don't recall if it was labeled for an I.T. car. But it sure looks like one. > > > I'm not certain just where it is sitting at the moment. I shall look for it. > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Sep 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >> >> >> At this point in time, we're probably unable to know much more about Ray Waller, or even if he may have been an ex-Central Lines employee, but at least we can now know who last held this inventory before it was dispersed. This 1946 Portland Oregon Exacta catalog that Doc Denny mentions may well have been the very first one issu ed by this manufacturer being advertised for distribution in their first ad with MR magazine in April of that year. However, and it's unclear why Exacta would issue a second catalog so sooner, this manufacturer advertised in their May '46 ad; "New Revised Catalog Now Ready. . . Write Now!" The following month's (June) ad read the same, but after that, they only solicited a catalog (with no mention of a revision). Makes one wonder if they've been in business for much earlier than they first started advertising with MR, however, if they needed to revise their catalog (or maybe they just wanted to appear that they were established longer). As far as we can know though, the Portland address appears to be their first one, going by their MR ads and by the catalog which Doc Denny owns and is most likely their initial location. >> >> It's unfort unate but understandable that flat/blank Exacta bodies were not also obtained at that time, but at least the desired pieces were purchased. This Exacta mandrel is now appearing to be even more similar to the similarly-fashioned Kemtron Centipede tool, in that it was home-made. I hadn't thought of that as I don't quite understand the need for that unless flat stock was bought, although perhaps for further rolling of the sides-roof area to ensure more parallel sides. It was the mandrel which brought to mind the flat stock, however. >> >> The construction procedure outlined below is interesting and informative and the comparison of the heavyweight and Old Timer roofs to those of Walthers, J-C Silversides and Northeastern is enlightening. Without tabs or lips of any kind to position the floor in those streamliners, it was admittedly difficult to build these cars, as is notably written, especially with any consistency of the floors' heights from car to car. >> >> In comparing Central Lines' literature and catalogs with early 1950's Model R.R. Equipment Corp. catalogs, Carmen Webster listed everything in H0 scale that Central Lines' literature shows, with exception of the #600 Indiana Traction Combine, the #602 Interurban and the 40' and 45' 1863 & 1866 B&O cars. While it's still possible that these last items were made, Ma Webster didn't carry them. >> >> I have no Central Lines catalogs on any other scale to compare Model R.R. Equipment Corp. listings to, so I have no idea if everything that Model R.R. Equipment Corp. listed for other scales include everything in Central Lines' other scale catalogs, or whether Webster's listings in these scales was the extent of Central Lines production. The listings for "0" scale and for "S" scale by Ma Webster were fairly extensive though, and included the same number (9) and types of passenger cars in the Streamline corrugated Budd style and the Streamline smooth-side Pullman type styles that were offered in "H0." The Standard car series was conspicuously absent though in "0" and "S" scales, as were the Interurbans and the trolley. Curiously, Ma Webster didn't list any Central Lines "00" scale models, although her section on that scale was limited. I think it's reasonable to believe that if Model R.R. Equipment Corp. had been offering the Central Lines models for at least several years, that they most likely were produced. >> >> Ray Wetzel >> >> >> In a message dated 9/24/2014 1:4 5:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: >> I subscribe to Jay's reminder that cottage industries such as Exacta/Central Lines for the most part dwindled, declined, and disappeared without fuss, feathers, sophistication, or formality- but perhaps not without sadness. >> >> >> Rod Miller in San Francisco prompted me to recall that it was Ray Waller who apparently held the HO Central Lines/Exacta inventory that I purchased in 1962 at his shop in Mountain View. I do not know now, nor can I recall then whether or not he held O, S, or ev en OO inventory. The space was small, so I would have thought that I probably would have noticed it if it was there. >> >> Rod has referred me to another person who might know more, and if so, I will pass it on. >> >> I looked in my own files, and I have distressingly little Exacta literature except for a copy of a 1946 catalogue, and a single instruction sheet. The catalogue address is Vancou ver Ave. Portland Oregon. The company name is EXACTA. >> >> In boxed flat sided kit inventory I have five plastic Central Lines cars in medium green boxes, and one Exacta copper side car in a lighter green slightly wider box, but all read *Central Lines, Los Gatos, CA.* Two of the CL kits are 75' Parlor Observations, as is the Exacta kit, i.e. they are identical except that the Exacta has the copper (vs. plastic) sides and ends. The Exacta car is partially assembled and is very handsome. By s erendipity, none of the parlor-observation kits have instruction sheets! >> >> In response to Ray Wetzel's questions: >> >> I did not at the time purchase the Exacta/CL flat and or blank stock, nor the copper molds because it would at the time (if not now) for me to be akin to taking on a free elephant. I was modeling, not collecting, not a wannabe model manufacturer or supplier, and not the person to bring into our small home a pile of "iron" (Mrs. Anspach's likely term). to be dealt with. >> >> The mandrel for forming the streamlined cars to which I referred was one that I personally fabricated, largely from Northeastern Scale Models materials. >> >> Observations on building Exacta and Central Lines cars: >> >> The wood roofs and floors supplied for the heavyweight car kits, and the floors for the streamlined kits were of a very grainy softwood, and they split very easily and were difficult to finish.. However, the heavyweight and Old Timer roofs had very good proportional cross section, and were and are superior in this regard to either the old Walthers or J-C wood roofs, or to the still currently available Northeastern roofs. >> >> On almost all of the streamlined cars, I substituted Northeastern basswood skirted floors, which -being slightly undersize- fit quite nicely. >> >> There were no shelves, lips, tabs, or anything else on the interiors of the shells to which the floors could be fastened or even indexed as to position. The only thing that I could find to secure the shells to the flooring was Pliobond or GOO, and neither really worked well (I still have sides pulling away). Now, I would probably use Barge Cement. At least for me, soldering was not an option because of the plating, and on the one time that I nonetheless attempted it, the copper wicked away the heat so fast, that I could never get solder to flow. Keeping the sides parallel, even, and level was also a big chore, inasmuch as with the best of efforts and intentions, most of the formed bodies were slightly askew and/or irregular enough to fight efforts to level them relative to the floor. >> >> Exacta supplied some crude formed bent steel strip cross section forms to keep the shape of the body and the posit ion of the floor to the body, but these forms were not symmetrical, nor could they be used with the Northeastern flooring. I never used them. >> >> Plating will reflect the state of the metal being plated, and if the substrate metal is dull, any resulting plated finish will also be dull. The copper or zinc substrate of the Exacta cars was not polished (although presumed clean), and the resulted nickel plating was very dull (and also quite thin). As a result, all of my cars have bee n stripped, polished and re-nickelled. They look good, and hold their own. >> >> A rhetorical question: did Exacta ever really produce all of the extensive line of cars that they listed, much less in HO, OO, S. or O; not to mention 17/64 scale (true O scale)? >> >> Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23230	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...

Dennis,   As you might already be aware, brass imports in general have a reputation for poor running -- from extremely poor to just moderately poor -- with their value being mainly in detail and faithfulness to the prototype. This is a bad rap they've received, as a blanket statement, as many are very good runners varying from just moderately good to surprising (very) good.  I'm not heavy in ever buying brass but I do have a small number of them, and  while PFM/United imported early renditions not yet all that "advanced," I've found with any of my models by this same manufacturer that they all run satisfyingly well, albeit sometimes a slight bit noisy -- depending on one's interpretation of noise.  At about $100, I'd have to say that they're certainly worth at least that and more, but I would add that as they are within the "first generation" of brass imports that they're on the low end of the scale in value when compared to what have become accepted as better built brass like Westside, Lambert or Overland. I'd have to say that for the era in which they were introduced, that they were probably near top of the line and much more valuable than other imports such as Tenshodo (although these were considered fairly decent too, for their time -- but they didn't have the better runners of today to compete with).   Factory or professional paint will ensure a higher value, although I believe most United models came unpainted.  One United I have, an SP GS-4, runs just about as well as any Varney machine, and can pull down a house.  It originally came unpainted from the factory, but I bought it used with the previous modeler having painted it.  I've since bought a factory-painted Balboa SP GS-4, but I won't part with the United as I like it too much.  Other Brass, like Nickel Plate Products look superficially excellent, and many are factory-painted, but may lack in operation.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/26/2014 9:35:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I've never been a brass collector. I suppose it's largely due to cost, but I sure have admired them over the last several decades. At a recent railroad Convention, I had a nice visit with a fellow seemingly conversant with the, "brass world." I happened to mention that, although I am not much of a follower of Santa Fe, they sure had a nice looking Consolidation that appeared to have been modeled a lot. He said that PFM/United imported so many of those particular units for so many years, that they sell often and for affordable prices. About $100 give or take if one watches a bit. That caught my attention because if I quit buying Varney and Mantua for a bit, I can almost afford one. I wouldn't run it a lot, and I do realize those earlier mechanisms are a far cry from today's standard can motors, etc. I've watched a few auctions and I think he might be right. There are always a few in the $250+ range, but some are less. I did see a Sunset version, and it had brake rigging on the drivers that the United model did not have. Plus a can motor. So I am sure there are detail and power considerations between various importers. Anyone have comments? Evidently the United models were imported from around 1956 clear until around 1970'ish. The last ones having can motors. I'd enjoy having one, and might fit my dismal retirement budget. And it would not have to be absolute perfect. Painted preferred. I see one on ebay now at $75. Who knows where the price will go, but I'm thinking about bidding on it. Of course if I peak interest on this List too much, I'll create my own competition. (grin) Are these really good buys? Dennis in E WA state --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com Posted by: Dennis Thompson <dbtrail@...> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (10) Check out the automatic photo album with 3 photo(s) from this topic. .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23231	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

An OO scale Exacta observation car is shown in a post discussing the line on the American OO Today blog: American OO Today: Exacta Scale Models American OO Today: Exacta Scale Models Exacta Scale Models, Inc. of Portland, Oregon introduced their OO line in 1946 and was according to advertisement and catalog "successors to Baker-Scott Ra... View on americanoo.blogspo... Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23232	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Double 0 Exacta

Quite interesting and appreciated for its posting.  Nice looking cars in any scale; the rounded rear roof sections on the Obs cars were cast aluminum.  It was assumed that Exacta produced their cars also in this scale since they listed them in their catalog, but it wasn't verified up until now.  Odd why Model R.R. Corp. didn't carry them as they did offer "00" scale.  Hard to understand too, why Baker-Scott appeared to not advertise.  I don't believe this is the same "Baker" which produced the couplers by this same name.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/27/2014 8:03:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   An OO scale Exacta observation car is shown in a post discussing the line on the American OO Today blog: American OO Today: Exacta Scale Models American OO Today: Exacta Scale Models Exacta Scale Models, Inc. of Portland, Oregon introduced their OO line in 1946 and was according to advertisement and catalog "successors to Baker-Scott Ra... View on americanoo.blogspo... Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23233	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Jay W. and others,   Many thanks for the bit of history on AHM and the relationship between Rivarossi and Mehano.  Too bad the TVG was never imported as I think it would have been fairly popular here.  I remember Kramer's production of the ALCo RS-11, although I never bought one.  I did buy, and still have a pair (powered & dummy) of his Life-Like Century 628's -- in the Delaware & Hudson scheme, which run fairly well for relatively inexpensive models of that time.  Life-Like, back then,  was never known to be great quality model, although they were adequate for their purpose.   Oops, I just now went to the train room to check them out further, and found that I bought three of those D&H C-628 -- two powered and one dummy (all the same roadnumber - 601),  I guess I must have liked them.  I don't think that Life-Like applied multiple roadnumbers on anything they made, at least not back then).  I bought them in a local discount chain-department store here in NJ in the early ' 70's, by the name of "Two Guys" (originally, "Two Guys from Harrison" [NJ[).  I'm sure you must remember them.  Their stores had good sized hobby departments -- and they had great sales, especially around the holidays.  Their regular (discount) price on the powered units was $29.99 each -- which I bought "On Sale" for $17.99, as marked on their boxes; hard to beat that.   Ray W.     In a message dated 9/22/2014 2:26:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Roger W., Ray W. and All,   That's a great Rivarossi model, Roger, and even though out of my regular collection area, I would have not hesitated buying it either!   In case you or some of our other members are not aware of it, there is an excellentt Rivarossi history website, which has a digital archive to all catalogs going back to the late 1940's. They also have an interesting long interview with Allesandro Rossi, which gives insight into many of the early models, etc. http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ Ray W, The Yugoslavian firm that AHM contracted with, and that apparently some Rivarossi model dies like the C-Liner were shifted to,  is  "Mehano - a Slovenian toy company, founded in 1952 as Mehanotehnika, which produces a large range of both traditional and electronic toys, as well as model railroad equipment. The company had borne its current name of Mehano since 1990." (f rom Wikipedia).  Its been a while since I read it, but think Rossi's interview mentions the Mehano connection.    Mehano made/makes some very basic models that were imported into the US, but also has premium lines we don't see here like the DCC ICE, TVG Duplex and Thalys trains as well as modern European locomotives. They may be seen on eBay - I can no longer find their website, they may have been taken over by the Kader group(?). Sol Kramer, wearing his Varney hat, contracted with Mehano to produce the then well received ALCO RS-11 that was first advertised in RMC and sold circa late 1968 in two varieties of Varney boxes,  then a few months later continued as Life-Like. Mehano also made the interesting Alco C-415 modern center cab for American Train and Track, ATT, besides many models for AHM, etc. After ATT folded, Kramer's Life Like imported that C-415 as well and later did the C -628 which IHC still sells.   W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23234	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Ray W., All, I just spent the past hour or so at the Rivarossi memories website, and it seems that the relationship between the two firms was even more complex than I first thought. At times there was cooperation, competition and even a lawsuit, though Bernie Paul may have instigated that. It also seems that Bernie Paul (AHM, etc) had owned some of the die molds and transferred them from one firm to another. There are many pages of information including information on General Models, Polks – AristoCraft, AHM, IHC, Mehano, etc. and their relationship with Rivarossi. The information is in Italian, though now easily translated by cutting and pasting long paragraphs to the Google translator, simple if not 100% perfect. Locomotive production back to the late 1940s is covered including many of the vintage models from the 1950s that we have spoken about here before. There are also interviews with Allesandro Rossi, who only passed about five years ago. Some nice tributes to him to when he was still living. Virtually all of the comoanies catalogs from 1940 on also here, page by page! http://www.rivarossi-memory.it --------------------------------------------------- The website is beginning to translate much of the locomotive production data in English and it is available at a companion website. http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ENGLISH_VERSION/index_Eng.htm A trove of both historical and technical information! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23235	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

On 28/09/14 6:53, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Ray W., All, I just spent the past hour or so at the Rivarossi > memories website, and it seems that the relationship between the two > firms was even more complex than I first thought. > Virtually all of the comoanies catalogs from 1940 on also here, page > by page! > > http://www.rivarossi-memory.it > http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ENGLISH_VERSION/index_Eng.htm > > A trove of both historical and technical information! W. Jay W. Hello Jay. Thanks for the link to this site. Is this only for earlier, or diecast items? I just spent some time trying to find my plastic 6206 2-10-2 locos, but did not succeed on either site. Maybe they are too late for this group.. I bought four of them from ebay some time back, planning to kitbash them into two 2-10-10-2 Virginian Railway locos. However, I then found some brass locos from the 200 2-10-10-2's which were produced, and manage to buy four of them! I'd just like to obtain some more details on my Rivarossis, because I am planning to sell them on, if anyone is interested (sorry - blatant commercial break! - contact me off-group), but there doesn't appear to be a search facility on the two sites. Cheers. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23236	From: the_plainsman	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

HO Doug H., The Rivarossi pages cover everything manufactured by the firm in detail, beginning just after WW2 in the late 1940's until their takeover by HORNBY after year 2000. Suggest that you start with the English pages as you will find much information there. The very last locomotive included is on their C&O Allegheny, though it was also produced in Virginian markings. You found FOUR Virginian 2-10-10-2's!!!! (I believe they were imported by Custom Brass.). I am in awe. I can't imagine how many of those 1940s Varney G-10 Virginian high-side gondolas you'll need to put behind them! Aside from my northeast favorite roads beginning with Erie - DL&W, Virginian is one of my few other favorites, though besides just about every book published on the road only, have one of their EL-1 single unit electric box cab locos, a chance spur of the moment train show bargain. W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23237	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 9/27/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Doug,   It looks like you missed seeing the Rivarossi loco you're looking for, on the two sites Jay W. posted.  Your plastic 6206 2-10-2 can be found on the English version, in the left-hand side column, the seventh locomotive down this column.  It's listed as "Santa Fe 2-10-2."  I don't know how much information you need on this engine, but with clicking onto the name of this loco beneath the photo, it opens to text describing it.   You may have missed it perhaps, if you got mislead by the term "Santa Fe," and you have a Baltimore & Ohio engine.  In this case, "Santa Fe" does not refer to the roadname of this engine but instead the type of engine.  The Santa Fe railroad was the first to build a 2-10-2, so from then on any railroad having a 2-10-2 called them "Santa Fe" type engines, just like "Texas" type (2-10-4) engines were named after the Texas & Pacific since that railroad was the first to build them.  A T&P "Texas" type engine (#610) was used on the American Freedom Train in 1976, within the State of Texas.  This does not mean that only the T&P had these engines as the Chesapeake & Ohio found their 2-10-4's to be very successful for them -- and they called them "Texas" type engines.   Rivarossi first offered their Baltimore & Ohio Class S-1 "Santa Fe" type 2-10-2 in 1967, with two roadnumbers; #6200 and #6206.  They reproduced this engine again in 1978 (as #6206) and in 1980 (as #6200).  Actually, these roadnumbers referred to the later (Lima-built) B&O Class S-1a, roadnumbers #6200-#6224.  The Baldwin-built S-1a engines were numbered #6175-#6199.  The S-1 engines were numbered from #6100-#6149 (Baldwin-built), and from #6150-#6174 (Lima-built).  The previous "S" Class engines were numbered #6000-#6030 (Baldwin-built).  The B&O called them the "Big-Six" -- as did AHM/Rivarossi -- referring to their roadnumber series starting with 6000 for these classes.   I bought my AHM B&O "Big-Six" in 1978 (#6206) and can add that Rivarossi included a separate blind center driver set to be changed out by the modeler for the flanged center driver set as built, in case this engine was to run on a smaller (than 24"?) radius.  I don't know if AHM included this flange-less driver set with all of their B&O 2-10-2's as they occasionally changed their packaging/boxes.  You may even have this extra driver set with your loco.  Does this cover all you need to know on this loco?  If not, what else would you need to know?  There's a number of Rivarossi B&O 2-10-2 engines, with tenders, at auction now up on eBay -- one around $40 and a couple of others around $62 -- watch them to see what they close at, to give you a guide on what to ask for them.    Jay W., thanks for posting the Rivarossi link!   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 9/27/2014 11:28:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: On 28/09/14 6:53, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Ray W., All, I just spent the past hour or so at the Rivarossi > memories website, and it seems that the relationship between the two > firms was even more complex than I first thought. > Virtually all of the comoanies catalogs from 1940 on also here, page > by page! > > http://www.rivarossi-memory.it > http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ENGLISH_VERSION/index_Eng.htm > > A trove  of both historical and technical information! W. Jay W. Hello Jay. Thanks for the link to this site. Is this only for earlier, or diecast items? I just spent some time trying to find my plastic 6206 2-10-2 locos, but did not succeed on either site. Maybe they are too late for this group.. I bought four of them from ebay some time back, planning to kitbash them into two 2-10-10-2 Virginian Railway locos. However, I then found some brass locos from the 200 2-10-10-2's which were produced, and manage to buy four of them! I'd just like to obtain some more details on my Rivarossis, because I am planning to sell them on, if anyone is interested (sorry - blatant commercial break! - contact me off-group), but there doesn't appear to be a search facility on the two sites. Cheers. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23238	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

On 28/09/14 18:33, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: > HO Doug H., The Rivarossi pages cover everything manufactured by the > firm in detail, beginning just after WW2 in the late 1940's until > their takeover by HORNBY after year 2000. Suggest that you start with > the English pages as you will find much information there. The very > last locomotive included is on their C&O Allegheny, though it was > also produced in Virginian markings. You found FOUR Virginian > 2-10-10-2's!!!! (I believe they were imported by Custom Brass.). I am > in awe. I can't imagine how many of those 1940s Varney G-10 Virginian > high-side gondolas you'll need to put behind them! Aside from my > northeast favorite roads beginning with Erie - DL&W, Virginian is one > of my few other favorites, though besides just about every book > published on the road only, have one of their EL-1 single unit > electric box cab locos, a chance spur of the moment train show > bargain. W. Jay W. Hi Jay. Yep, you read it right - 4 locos, 3 from one seller in the US who's a VGN historian, and I'm fast becoming a lesser one - I have a bit of a fetish about the 2-10-10-2's - have had since I was a boy at school.. I've also acquired about a dozen VGN electric outline, mostly in brass. As you are probably aware, VGN used two 2-10-10-2's as pushers on 5,000 tons of coal on the incline (see below). I want to try to reproduce this drama. But I'm going to to have to hurry before I take the Westbound - now 76, and counting.. Left my run a bit late! And I have one VGN Allegheny type, bought from another VGN historian! Although they don't do as much for me as the AE class. So far I've collected about 50 hoppers, all from Dans ebay Store, and I'm currently reading historical (1924) engineering magazine articles on the coal piers. My interest is the electrified hill section between Mullens/Elmore and Clarks Gap at the top of the incline, but I'd love to build a coal pier at some stage.. Cheers.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23239	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

On 28/09/14 19:55, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doug, > I bought my AHM B&O "Big-Six" in 1978 (#6206) and can add that Rivarossi > included a separate blind center driver set to be changed out by the modeler > for the flanged center driver set as built, in case this engine was to run > on a smaller (than 24"?) radius. I don't know if AHM included this > flange-less driver set with all of their B&O 2-10-2's as they occasionally > changed their packaging/boxes. You may even have this extra driver set with your > loco. Does this cover all you need to know on this loco? If not, what > else would you need to know? There's a number of Rivarossi B&O 2-10-2 > engines, with tenders, at auction now up on eBay -- one around $40 and a couple > of others around $62 -- watch them to see what they close at, to give you a > guide on what to ask for them. > > Jay W., thanks for posting the Rivarossi link! > > Ray Wetzel Hi Ray. Thank you so much for all the info. I'll look them up in the morning when the pre-dinner gin has worn off! Just took another look at the three Rivarossis I've been able to find - two have flanged centre drivers, one is blind.. I have a vague notion I may have sold the other one.. I've been lurking here for a bit, but this is an amazing group! Best.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23240	From: Doug Harris	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

On 28/09/14 18:33, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: Aside from my > northeast favorite roads beginning with Erie - DL&W, Virginian is one > of my few other favorites, though besides just about every book > published on the road only, have one of their EL-1 single unit > electric box cab locos, a chance spur of the moment train show > bargain. W. Jay W. Hi Jay. I have also managed to acquire an odd orphan centre boxcab unit, as well as one single unit. Let me know if you ever wish to sell.. Cheers.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23241	From: saddlewood1	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage Brass

Hello Dennis, $75 would have been a parts box purchase.  In my experience, their poorer running, is more likely to be caused by poor current pickup and shorting.  I have found that these things will short every way from Sunday.   Some of these shorts are most illusive. Early purchasers were forced by this situation to become model mechanics. I was paying $250 to 500 for these models.  I when I got one that ran, it was a pleasant surprise.  So, a $75 to 100 non-running loco is a good buy.  I have noticed that lately,  prices are becoming totally unreasonable.  I suppose this reflects the reduced sales caused by our rapidly improving economy. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23242	From: Denis Long	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Hello Nelson, Thanks for muddying that up for me. Actually, I used to read comments referencing Rivarossi as making Pacifics and Mikes, of the same models I had by Mehano.  At that time, I was only aware of Rivs. articulateds, and E8s. All this came to my attention, when I saw a Riv Alton Pacific and remembered I had a Mehano version.  I bought the Rivarossi and disposed of the Mehano.  The Riv was superior cosmetically. However, not mechanically, as this was one of those imported by Expo, with the fabulous plastic shaft on the ‘idler’ gear. It took no time at all for the shaft to break.  So, I found a Riv Pac that ran well, and slapped the older chassis under mine. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23243	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 9/28/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

The Exacta OO observation car is extremely interesting inasmuch as I too have never personally known of any actual production. It is doubly interesting inasmuch as the model is reportedly one of a number of similar related models built by Jerry White.   Jerry White was a truly notable professional railroad model maker who lived in Redwood City, CA, and was most notable for the wide variety of premium custom made O (primarily) and HO gauge locomotives, the drives of which were almost perfect. Less well known was the fact that he was behind Kurtz-Craft (Superior Models), probably the very first high quality molded plastic freight car kits; and he was the technical brains behind the development of the now-standard NMRA RP-25 wheel tread standard. I knew Jerry well for many years as a fully-engaged fellow modeler at the then-small and quite collegial West Bay Model Railroad Club in Menlo Park, CA.  Although the spectacular finished Winton MaRa 2-6-6-4 that I own was primarily built by Frank Weiss (Menlo Park), like the rest of us, Frank also worked closely with Jerry, and I have long suspected that its smooth drive came from his hands.   Jerry was the one who sent me to Ray Waller (the initial purpose of which was to gather information on a PRR J-1 2-10-4). I had no idea beforehand that I would end up with the Exacta HO inventory. The sides of my Exacta Budd observation cars wrap around and overlap the rear doorway. The only casting is a very crude (understatement) aluminum roof end casting, which fits quite poorly, but does provide a rounded shape to work with.  The rear skirting  is part of the wrap around side, as as such cannot be shaped to curl under like the prototype. As a result, the aft end of the built up HO observation cars  can be pretty ugly.  I have attempted making skirting from wood, but have not been too successful. I have no idea what Jerry did to make the end of the OO observation apparently look so good- but….he was a professional at his craft. During the time of which we are speaking, i.e. c. 1946-1970, but especially during the period 1950-65, there were a host of gifted professional modelers in the Bay Area, Rollin Lobaugh, Winton Brown, Jerry White, and Ray Waller (I have probably left out more than a few) who had terrific impacts on the directions are hobby took at the time, if not currently.  For the most part, the availability of cheap quality brass import models flooding the market beginning c. 1955 or so, put an end to these lines of craftsmanship. Denny         Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23244	From: Wally Weart	Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi models

I recently bought a Rivarossi  HO model of a D&RGW 3800 4-6-6-4. The prototype was built in1943 based on UP plans and the Rio Grande bought 5. I was pleasantly suspired how well it runs and how easy it was to convert to DCC. The members of my HO Club didn't think it was a Rivarossi until I showed them the name. Over the years,  I owned several Rivarossi models including a NKP Berkshire and an IHB 0-8-0 . Wish I still had them! Wally

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23245	From: Alan Kilby	Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good value?

I think these locos are a good deal,they are reasonably well detailed,brake shoes might be added providing they don't interfere with sprung drivers.You can replace gearbox and motor for around $50 if necessary and still have a detailed comparably priced compared to a new plastic model that can't be repaired.These have a good ratio 40:1 gearbox and a good mechanism.There is room for a large can motor concealed inside boiler.I repaired one with bad gearbox for a friend.He switched to DCC and forgot he had it.I replaced gearbox,it already had a can motor,cleaned and lubricated mechanism,installed sound decoder and it is an excellent smooth runner.This had 30+ years of use on it,light wheel wear and was easily repaired.I could have gotten it running good by just replacing the gearbox.There were a lot of these made so price is quite reasonable used.I plan to get one when I have the money and locate one.    Alan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23246	From: greenbrier614	Date: 9/29/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

Hi Dennis, I think the culprit in those revised 90's plastic gearboxes was the cheap white grease they used, which turned to caulk in just a few years. There is a Rivarossi Memory forum where you can read translated threads about the problem. I obtained one of their newer Mikes secondhand (same gearbox) about 4 years ago, and it was an all day project to clean out the gearing. I've never seen a grease harden like that, but it explains those shearing plastic pins. I added Super Lube to their grease on those Rivarossis I bought new, and it is still perfectly viable. Each manufacturer used the same boiler for their version of the Pacific and Mikado, but they modeled different prototypes. Rivarossi versions had the heavier boiler, for starters. Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23247	From: Denis Long	Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi Expo Pacific

Hi Nelson, Thanks, now I have an additional reason for preferring the Riv version.   I’m one of those lunatics that has many thousands in boxed locos.  That Pacific was rarely run and just pulled its own weight.  There was no chalky deposit, that I recall, but it may have needed a more efficient lube.  I do know there were many gear shaft failures.  I toyed with the idea of drilling the gear and placing a metal rod, but in the end, just went with the older chassis drive. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23248	From: cwrailman	Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...

You might find some interest in checking out my CWRailman WEB site for information and demonstrations on reworking brass locomotives.  The discussion of reworking a brass PFM/United ATSF 2-8-0 was mentioned.  On the Projects page of my WEB site we demonstrate reworking several of these ATSF 2-8-0 locomotives and, currently as I write this, I have another one in our shops.  Using the materials and techniques we demonstrate you can have a fine running model for a rather small financial investment.  At the bottom of the Projects page you can download a PDF version of our Remotoring and Regearing Clinic that takes you step by step through the process of reworking a locomotive.   If you have additional questions they can be sent to me through the email address listed on our WEB site. Denny Janitor in Training CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops WEB site: http://www.cwrailman.com/ Facebook: CWRailman  CWRailman Check out CWRailman, Adventures in Model Railroading. The home of the California Western Loco and... View on www.facebook.com Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23249	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 9/30/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...

At 05:02 PM 9/30/2014, you wrote: Denny and All: I appreciate the several helpful commentaries that have been posted on this subject.  I've passed up a couple of these models already....something just looked, "wrong."  But I will continue to look for an older Santa Fe 2-8-0.  I've got the desire now to have one.  Denny, your website is really helpful.  As I've gotten older I sometime wonder about my skills, but on the other hand, I have learned to take a lot of time with modeling.  Not sure how long it will take to find an affordable Santa Fe Consolidation, but it will come in time.  I also have always liked the slide-valved Ma & Pa 2-8-0's as well.  Dennis You might find some interest in checking out my CWRailman WEB site for information and demonstrations on reworking brass locomotives.  The discussion of reworking a brass PFM/United ATSF 2-8-0 was mentioned.  On the Projects page of my WEB site we demonstrate reworking several of these ATSF 2-8-0 locomotives and, currently as I write this, I have another one in our shops.  Using the materials and techniques we demonstrate you can have a fine running model for a rather small financial investment.  At the bottom of the Projects page you can download a PDF version of our Remotoring and Regearing Clinic that takes you step by step through the process of reworking a locomotive.   If you have additional questions they can be sent to me through the email address listed on our WEB site. Denny Janitor in Training CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops WEB site: http://www.cwrailman.com/ Facebook: CWRailman   CWRailman This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23250	From: maryinvt2	Date: 10/1/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...

I can personally attest to what Denny says about the PFM/United 2-8-0 being very worth while because it was my engine that he brought back to life that he features in his 2012 pictorial and video. I originally won this item at a local train auction (or should I say "stole") for $50.00 but it was a sad runner when I first placed it on the tracks. Following Denny's masterful re-working, it remains one of my prized possessions. Thanks again Denny. Richard in Vermont

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23251	From: cwrailman	Date: 10/1/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...

Richard, Good to hear you continue to enjoy that locomotive.  Yes, yours was the one shown on the box you used to ship it to our shops.  Since that time we have had four or five of those locomotives run through our shops. Some required a little more work and others a simple remotoring.    Dennis, The PFM/United ATSF 2-8-0 is an admirable performer and if you find one you will not be disappointed.  The Ma&Pa slide valve 2-8-0 is another bullet proof performer that responds well to remotoring and respringing. We have done a multitude of these over the years and if you check out the Roundhouse Page of our WEB site you will see several of these on our roster.  Check out CW #6.  That is the boiler, cab and tender from a PFM V&T 4-6-0 mounted on a chassis from a Ma&Pa 2-8-0.  By making such bashes you can come up with a unique model. If you downloaded the PDF version of our Remotoring and Regearing Clinic from our Projects Page you will see that the Ma&Pa 2-8-0 was the subject of that clinic.  On that same Projects page we feature several other remotoring and regearing projects based on the Ma&Pa 2-8-0.   Watch the videos to see how smoothly it will run after implementing these few basic changes.   With proper lubrication either of these models as with most all of the PFM/United models will last a long time. Denny Janitor in Training CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops WEB site: http://www.cwrailman.com/ Facebook: CWRailman  CWRailman Check out CWRailman, Adventures in Model Railroading. The home of the California Western Loco and... View on www.facebook.com Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23252	From: the_plainsman	Date: 10/2/2014
Subject: Re: Semi-vintage brass: Old PFM/United Santa Fe 2-8-0 - Good val...

Hi Denny, Thanks for reminding us of your great website and the work of CW  Loco and Car Rebuild Shops. I had fun looking over more than a few "new to me" pages, all of which can serve as an inspiration for many of us in regard to rebuilding some of our "tire" vintage and near-vintage locomotives and cars into ones that perform as well as they look!  My 2 cents: While I personally would not rebuild a very rare, but complete Walthers Baltic, Penn Line Crusader or similar locomotive with a modern motor and DCC, re working an incomplete one might get it out of the box or off the shelf to be appreciated. But there are thousands of other vintage locos that could benefit a rebuild, just as the prototypes often were!  W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23253	From: John Webster	Date: 10/3/2014
Subject: Re: Exacta

There is a running thread on Model Train Journal (O guage) about Exacta and forming the passenger car sides:   http://modeltrainjournal.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15340   John Webster

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23254	From: b60bp	Date: 10/5/2014
Subject: For Sale: a few Vintage Freight Cars

Greetings, I've got a few oldies kits for sale and thought I might ask here. Thanks for looking. --LaBelle Ohio Electric Box Trailer. Kit HO62. Mint.  $12.50 --Central Valley Detroit Grand Haven & Millwaukee 36 ft Box Car Kit. Mint $15 --Central Valley Jersey Central 36 ft Reefer. Built, excellent.  $18 --Lindberg GN Stock Car. RTR in original box. Like new.   $10 Prices do not include shipping. Thanks again, Barry Peltier

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23255	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: ID Help + Suzuki & Edwards

Attachments : Unknown cast clerestory vents.png Suzuki and Edwards box label, parts.png Hi All, Attached are two photos of parts from a small parts bag I purchased at a train show earlier this year.  One photo shows a supply of cast lead-based white metal clerestory vents, the other shows them, plus cast coupler pockets, what appear to be stamped brass car end railings, turned brass roof vents in two sizes, along with a Suzuki & Edwards box label. (I think Jim Waterman previously expressed an interest in that firm, which is what drew my attention to the bag at the show. I have not seen anything like the cast clerestory window vents before, and might have a use for them in another project, but before doing so, would like to know more about their origins.  Can anyone ID them for sure?  W. Jay W.

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23256	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 10/8/2014
Subject: Re: ID Help + Suzuki & Edwards [2 Attachments]

H 'lo Jay (and All!)...do you want to know about the S&E parts, or S&E generally? I have several S&E kits...a baggage car and half a dozen freight cars. The parts you describe may have been produced by S&E, but I think it more likely that a 'cottage' supplier at the time, who may have been casting/building for other exporters in or aroundTokyo, produced them. According to snippets in 'The Reporting Mark' S&E kits came into Nth America via importers such as IMP and Pacific Pike (Canada). There may be more info in TRM, will advise if found! Cheers, Russ On Thursday, 9 October 2014, 7:39, "Jay Wanczyk the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from Jay Wanczyk included below] Hi All, Attached are two photos of parts from a small parts bag I purchased at a train show earlier this year.  One photo shows a supply of cast lead-based white metal clerestory vents, the other shows them, plus cast coupler pockets, what appear to be stamped brass car end railings, turned brass roof vents in two sizes, along with a Suzuki & Edwards box label. (I think Jim Waterman previously expressed an interest in that firm, which is what drew my attention to the bag at the show. I have not seen anything like the cast clerestory window vents before, and might have a use for them in another project, but before doing so, would like to know more about their origins.  Can anyone ID them for sure?  W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23257	From: the_plainsman	Date: 10/9/2014
Subject: Re: ID Help + Suzuki & Edwards [2 Attachments]

Hi Russ S., thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I was able to find an illustration in the 1956 International (IMP) catalog at hoseeker.org and immediately recognized that old time coach - one of which I have packed away! Those brass and end beam/handrail stampings and turned roof vents had looked familiar but I could not place them. Prior to its mention earlier this year, I had not been aware of the name Suzuki & Edwards as the origin of kits/cars sold by International. I also realize that S&E also used a number of cottage suppliers. Thanks again for taking the time to make that connection for me! W. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23258	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/10/2014
Subject: HO and on30 Parts

Just got this announcement:  http://estore.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=66_68 Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23259	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 10/11/2014
Subject: Mantua metal passenger cars.

I am reducing my early collector HO items, and in this regard, I offer for sale the following: Early brass or tinplate Old Time Mantua passenger car  and passenger car parts inventory  for sale the following as a group Kits: 1 kit all-brass coach in OB: 1 kit all-brass combine in OB Assembled cars: 1 all-brass assembled U/P combine (Mantua couplers/brass wheels) 1 brass body/tinplate root. Neatly painted (but needs TLC). Replacement wood floor and plastic end platforms. but no seats. Truss rods, but three missing queen posts.. Varney dummy couplers. Brass wheels. 1 brass body/brass roof. Poor paint. Replacement wood floor and plastic end platforms. Center sill. Queen posts soldered to sides. truss rods. Central Valley passenger trucks. Varney dummy couplers. Parts for the above and other Mantua Old Time metal cars (counts approximate): Fabricated brass roofs: six (4) Fabricated tinplate roof (Korean War): one (1) Brass floors: four (4) Brass interior seat strips (9) Cast metal trucks with plastic wheels:  3-1/2 pr. Small parts factory pack for detail parts (railings, end and side doors, etc.) for baggage car (good for all cars). four (4) Cast metal end platforms: nine (9) Brass combined coupler mount and end steps (mounts under above cast end platform) eight or nine (8 or 9). Price for all above FOB Sacramento:    $60 HO Central Lines passenger car embossed/cast/molded plastic sides for sale as a group: Combine car, open platform wood 11 window 54' body length (only). matched set. Baggage car, open platform wood four door 50' body length (only): matched set. Baggage car, steel 70' four door, ATSF prototype (girder side sills): matched set Baggage/RPO, steel 69', SP (Harriman) prototype: matched set, blanked, i.e.windows not  cut out. Baggage/RPO, as above, but only one side, windows cut out. Diner, 80' large windowed SP prototype (Harriman roofed). Two of the same sides (opposite kitchen), both blanked. $10.00 plus cost shipping. Kit.  75' Combine. LACONIA (Franklin, New Hampshire). Kit is complete  in OB with instructions.  Neatly embossed Bristol board sides are prepainted (dark green) and pre-glazed.   Parts re-bagged in plastic. $20.00 plus packing & shipping. Streamlined 4-6-4, brass sand casting, Varney, painted as a Milwaukee Road locomotive.  Tender is Penn LIne T-1 tender modified to match the Varney outline and width. Mechanism is from a Penn LIne K4 4-6-2, but with 80' Penn Line BoxPok disc drivers. Lead truck is from a Penn Line T-1, and the sprung trailing truck is lost wax cast Budd (Kemtron). Skirts are made of reinforced Bristol board (Streathmore).  A small portion of one skirt is missing.   Motor is Pittman DC71. The locomotive operates (noisily), and was recently tested.  I submitted photos of this locomotive to Files some weeks ago, I believe (I also have a Varney economy Pacific chassis and related parts that I probably will also put up for sale with other Varney items (see below). $75.00 plus packing and shipping. Please respond OFF LIST only to- danspachmd at gmail dot com (email address spelled out to foil Yahoo and spammers).  Items not sold will be sold at the Roseville (CA) railroad fair in early November, or on eBay. I am also preparing to offer for sale the bulk of my pre-1949 (i.e. paper/wood) Varney cars and parts, retaining only those cars of sentimental value to me. I will be listing them in a few days. Thank you for reading this. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23260	From: trainguru	Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Re: For Sale: a few Vintage Freight Cars

Where are you from sir. I'm interested in the Interurban Freight Trailer, and I need an idea of what shipping could be. All I need is the state, nothing more. Thank you sir. - trainguru

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23261	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 10/14/2014
Subject: Pre-1949 Varney car and kit collection for sale.

I am offering the bulk of my Varney pre-1949 freight, reefer, and passenger cars, kit and otherwise, for sale as a group. The list is long, and inasmuch as WORD docs are stripped, I will include the entirety within this post.   This is not a great collection, but there is a lot of it, and in its midst are some real gems.  Most of the items were opportunity purchases, hand-me-downs, or bequests over the many years since I assembled my very first HO car, a Varney foil B-34 boxcar in 1946. There are a lot of incomplete models, or models missing parts, etc., the purpose of accumulating them was always to exercise the opportunity to part out two or even three in order to save intact for posterity at least one of the type.  I did do exactly  that over the years for a lot of cars (these cars can be commonly relatively easy to non-destructively dismantle). I have retained a core of representative cars of sentimental value to me, and to serve as an exhibition train on my prototype-modeled layout.  I have not gone through each and every kit to ensure that all parts are there, but I have noted significant shortages, etc, i.e. no trucks, or in one instance, no body.   There are about 37 assembled, or partially assembled or finished models and about 27 kits, all but one in its appropriate box.  The items are listed first by my own inventory number (ignore), Varney's number (if known), the modeled prototype identity,  whether the sides are foil or paper, trucks (no, or is yes, type - i.e. cast bolster and side frames, or brass bolster, "flex". The boxes are identified as Blue, Hollywood or Chicago; or Red. A great number of the red boxed kits have inspection dates of 1946. I have photos of the unboxed items, which I will post to FILES. The asking price for the collection is $275 before packing and shipping.  Payment by PayPal is preferred. Shipping, handling and insurance will be at cost FOB Sacramento.  If the collection is not sold and shipped by next Monday the 20th, the collection will be offered for sale at the Roseville Railroad Fair on November 9th (I will be away in the interim). Thank you. Varney inventory for sale     Assembled No Boxes (26)   #379 B-25 Foil  StLSW  Cast trucks.  47014, #380 B-28 Paper CNW 51998 no trucks. #395 XR-2 Paper GN 2031. Cast trucks plastic wheels. #381 B-21 Foil PRR 75503 cast trucks plastic wheels NN B-21 Foil PRR 755o3 no trucks. #378 B-18 Foil Frisco  163920 No trucks NN (2) cattle car bodies (no sides). One has flex trucks. *#382 paper Milwaukee ribside 18514,  No trucks. #375 MLRB-2 ATSF 16417,. Cast trucks. #339/475?    MKT  46006  paper flex trucks Mantua couplers *#181 MKT 45089 flex trucks. *Milw 01811 ribside caboose cast trucks.. Milw 01811 ribside caboose. No trucks. 376 Milw/URTX 88107  cast rigid. Mantua. #381 B-31 paper NP 15811. Cast trucks. Seaboard 19079. Paper. Cast B1 trucks. B&O 455079 Sentinal paper. No trucks. *470 R-1 paper. MDT 20683. Cast trucks. Mantua. #377 R-16 paper IC 50200 Yellow/green. Cast rigid. #388 foil DRGW 71427. Rigid/brass. Flat Car foil GN 67023. No trks. #476 Paper PFE 26101. Metal Silver Streak trks. KD #5. #471 R-3 PFE 41520 paper. Metal SS trks. KD-5   Pullman 80’ U/P roof and floor. Painted and lettered sides.. 3 axle cast trucks. Pullman 80’ Painted, lettered and glazed.. “Newfangle”. Air conditioning ducts. One side buckled/warped (fixable). 3 Axle cast trucks. Pullman 80’ Painted, lettered on one side. AC ducts. One side off and unpainted. 3 axle cast trucks. Orig. KD couplers.   Boxed Assembled (9)   #328 B-28 Paper CNW 51998 no trucks. Blue Chicago. #314 B-21 foil. PRR 78503. Cast. Mantua. NOB. #329 B-20 UP steel. No sides. Blue Chicago B2-20 UP steel. Foil. No trucks. Blue Chicago #466 B-36 GN 2500 Aluminum. Baker couplers. Red. G-10 VGN 19671 Giant Gondola. 3-axle trucks. Orig. KD couplers, red. #33 Cattle Car. MP 52427. Sides intact, flat, and neat. (rare!).   Passenger Cars Assembled, boxed.   #390?, 318. PA-40. Coach. Painted. Red. #12  XR-1. GARX 931. Flex Exp. Trucks. KD 5. Red.   Kits , Box Cars (10)   #59 (kit). B-28 paper CNW 51998. Red box. #128 B-27 ATSF  125062 foil. Cast trucks. Blue #142 B-29 Sou 10061. Flex trucks. Red. #143 B-30 SP Overnight 9194. No trucks. Red. #144 B32 Seaboard 19079  Flex. Red. #145 B33 C&EI 64150 War Bonds. Fled trucks. Red. #150 B-40 NYC 174479 Pacemaker. Flex Trucks. Red. #58 B-41 Alton 1202. No trucks. Red. B-42 B&O 466025 Sentinal. Flex. Red. #149 B-44 PRR 80061. Cast metal underframe.”deluxe trucks”. Parts in replacement bag. Red “Deluxe Kit”.   Kits, flat cars. (2)  #52 F4 flat car L&N 26460 F5 Flat car GN 67544   Kits, Cabooses (2)   Caboose. Red embossed metal sides. No trucks. Blue box Chicago (instructions Hollywood). #26 Caboose. Red embossed paper sides. Flex trucks. Red.   Kits, Gondolas & Hoppers. (2)   G-4 (gondola) Erie 45027. Paper. Flex trucks. Red. H-1 Hopper car. Embrossed aluminum. All parts in replacement bag. Red.   Kit, Cattle car (1) Sides are warped, but intact and can be straightened.   Kits, refrigerator (4)   #150 R-14. NP 93542 paper. Flex trucks. Red. #32 R-17 PFE 41520 (steel). Flex trucks. No instructions. Red. #102 R-19 Liquid Carbonic 1003.  Red. #55 R-20 Hollywood & Western  4548. Deluxe kit. Cast underframe. Red.   Kits, passenger (3) PA-40. Coach. Metal trucks. Red. PA-30. Disassembled painted car. Failed trucks. Blue, Chicago. XR-2  Exp. Reefer GN 2031. Directions, Sides, ends, centersill, and brake castings only.  Blue, Chicago.   Boxes empty (4)   Flat  car F1 ATSF  blue, Hollywood. R-1 Refrigerator MDT, blue, Hollywood R-1 Refrigerator MDT, red. R-12 Refrierator WFE, blue, Hollywood   Embossed/printed sides/ends only:   MKT 46006 boxcar B-41 ALTON 1202 boxcar B-31 NP 15811 boxcar. B-29 Southern 10061 B-28 CNW boxcar, roof overlay only.   Miscellaneous:   Box of varied early Varney trucks and truck parts. Varney Cast metal Docksider body, chassis, and some patts. Economy Pacific lead alloy body, chassis, wheels, most (all?) valve and drive gear, lead and trailing truck. Some details. No motor. Heavy cast underframe used in Varney’s c. 1937-9 gondolas.        Denny S. Anspach MD 710 Coronado Blvd. Sacramento, CA 95864 916-712-9445

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23262	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 10/17/2014
Subject: Reducing inventory of older HO items, redux.

Friends, thank you for your fine response on the for sale items that I have recently listed. Here is yet another list of  grouped older HO kits, added finished models recently uncovered, and/or partially assembled boxed models etc. that I am offering for sale for reasonable prices. All are capable of restoration, if needed.  Those not yet sold will be placed for sale at the Roseville, CA Railfair 9 November. Kits and models in original boxes: #151 Laconia (Franklin, NH):  80' passenger combine. Pre-painted and pre-glazed sides. . #166 Laconia  (Franklin, NH)  40' Box Car B&M 72000 Lovely kit, but missing one side.  Ideal FB-14 42' Box Car PereMarquette 82120 Original trucks. #64 Ideal MW-1 Bucyrus Erie 150 ton wrecking crane. Original trucks. (One of the finest kits of the HO paper/wood era).    Lehigh Scale Model 40' KCS 20600 Quick Dispatch Automobile. Largely assembled/painted. Parts bagged.No instructions. Original cast metal trucks. #481 Comet R11 40' MP 79449. Body assembled. Orig. KD. Silver Streak  couplers. No detailed parts loose, or on model. #5 Walthers 8801P 40' URTX wood ice Reefer. Wood  body. IGA Stores billboard (decals). Large number of cast and stamped metal parts in sealed bags, including underframe.  Fine kit. No trucks.  Finished wood or wood/paper models (no boxes): #373 MB-1 Varney 40' Box ATSF 124666. #153  R-11Varney 40' Reefer  URTX 23104 Blatz Beer. #482 B-30 Varney 40' Box SP 9134.  Overnight Merchandise Service. #484 K-178 Red Ball 44' covered hopper GACX 40116. Continental Dustless, Continental Carbon Co. Varney cast trks. brass wheels. (fine model). Finished wood or wood/paper models (original Binkley box): #330 Binkley HO-127 CMStP&P Reefer URTX 37019. Lindberg trucks. Very finely built and finished. Copper model, partially assembled NOB: Exacta 85' Budd Parlor Observation car. Nickeled copper body and front car end, cast aluminum  aft roof end, and original wood floor with shaped wood skirting under aft end.  Rare bird. Price FOB Sacramento:  $150.00 plus S&H. I also offer the following "heavy iron" for sale:   Kemtron Lost wax (investment) cast brass EMD F3 body (a beautiful custom one-off using a Globe plastic body to make the mold).  Unpowered but appropriate Kemtron brass Blomberg trucks; no underframe, drive, or motor. Original plan was to use Hobbytown power. Note that Globe was the marketing name for the very first Athearn F3, so identified by its single headlight. Walthers Alco HH600 switcher,  cast lead alloy body only. Varney cast bronze two piece Vanderbuilt Tender. Kemtron 3-axle sprung lost wax brass trucks, plus other Kemtron detail parts.  Price: $60.00, FOB Sacramento, less S&H. I will be out of state until 5 November, so shipping will probably have to await until after that date. For those few that might have an interest in early Marklin HO, I will also be soon offering for sale a Marklin SK800 4-6-4 w. four cars, circa 1941-1946.  Please reply OFF LIST only to danspachmd at gmail dot com.  Thank you!   Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23263	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: something rare on eBay

Well........ Maybe not. But the seller thinks it is. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Train-Co-Rare-0-4-0-switcher-/131325283958?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e9398ce76 " This is a rare 0-4-0 ho mini antique switcher. This was of three variations that were introduced and the only 0-4-0 online for sale. " For only $1299.00 .......... with free shipping......... Minus and not mentioned, ........the tender, the piston rods, the cylinder fittings; and out of focus and overly dark shots showing a variety of chipped paint spots on the model. My favorite shot is this one..... http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/fHkAAOSwajVUQpmh/$_57.JPG Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23264	From: luvprr2003	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Holy Smoke, some people live in la la land when it comes to what they think they can get from buyers for anything odd.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23265	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Hi Mike, I do not think these engines are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel Holmes > Well........ > > Maybe not. > > But the seller thinks it is. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Train-Co-Rare-0-4-0-switcher-/131325283958?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e9398ce76 > > " This is a rare 0-4-0 ho mini antique switcher. This was of three > variations that were introduced and the only 0-4-0 online for sale. " > > For only $1299.00 .......... with free shipping......... > > Minus and not mentioned, ........the tender, the piston rods, the cylinder > fittings; and out of focus and overly dark shots showing a variety of > chipped paint spots on the model. > > My favorite shot is this one..... > > http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/fHkAAOSwajVUQpmh/$_57.JPG > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23266	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Not rare and not all that valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the 2 and the first 9.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay     Hi Mike, I do not think these engines are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel Holmes   Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23267	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

It almost seems like criminal misrepresentation to me.      -----Original Message----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 1:05 pm Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay Not rare and not all that valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the 2 and the first 9.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, Oct ober 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay     Hi Mike, I do not think these engines are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel Holmes   Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23268	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

AWW, it already ended , at 12:48 PM EDT; never got the chance to bid on it < g >.  Yeah, it bit much, but the shipping was FREE < g >.  Looks like it could have been a model from "New One," but I can't be sure and I don't prefer to put too much time into it to figure it out.  We've seen a few grossly overpriced one up on eBay from time to time; these guys never know when to quit trying to gouge.  Could there really be someone that gullible?    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:10:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   It almost seems like criminal misrepresentation to me.      -----Original Message----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 1:05 pm Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay Not rare and not all that valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the 2 and the first 9.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, Oct ober 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay   Hi Mike, I do not think these engines are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel Holmes   Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23269	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

I noticed he ended the auction this morning, I don't know when it started. He has one of the worst feedback scores I've ever seen on eBay. I especially like the negative one Don On 10/21/2014 11:52 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Well........ Maybe not. But the seller thinks it is. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Train-Co-Rare-0-4-0-switcher-/131325283958?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e9398ce76 " This is a rare 0-4-0 ho mini antique switcher. This was of three variations that were introduced and the only 0-4-0 online for sale. " For only $1299.00 .......... with free shipping......... Minus and not mentioned, ........the tender, the piston rods, the cylinder fittings; and out of focus and overly dark shots showing a variety of chipped paint spots on the model. My favorite shot is this one..... http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/fHkAAOSwajVUQpmh/$_57.JPG Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23270	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

A 75% Positive Feedback rating; who would even consider buying from him, with that kind of risk, even if his prices were sane?   Ray W.     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I noticed he ended the auction this morning, I don't know when it started. He has one of the worst feedback scores I've ever seen on eBay. I especially like the negative one Don On 10/21/2014 11:52 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Well........ Maybe not. But the seller thinks it is. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Train-Co-Rare-0-4-0-switcher-/131325283958?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e9398ce76 " This is a rare 0-4-0 ho mini antique switcher. This was of three variations that were introduced and the only 0-4-0 online for sale. " For only $1299.00 .......... with free shipping......... Minus and not mentioned, ........the tender, the piston rods, the cylinder fittings; and out of focus and overly dark shots showing a variety of chipped paint spots on the model. My favorite shot is this one..... http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/fHkAAOSwajVUQpmh/$_57.JPG Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23271	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Hi All, Does "rare" mean you can ask for unrealistic prices? I see "rare" often and the item is anything but rare. Joel Holmes > A 75% Positive Feedback rating; who would even consider buying from him, > with that kind of risk, even if his prices were sane? > > Ray W. > > > > In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > > I noticed he ended the auction this morning, I don't know when it > started. > > He has one of the worst feedback scores I've ever seen on eBay. > > I especially like the negative one > > Don > > On 10/21/2014 11:52 AM, Mike Bauers _mwbauers55@..._ > (mailto:mwbauers55@...) [vintageHO] wrote: > > > > Well........ > > Maybe not. > > But the seller thinks it is. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Train-Co-Rare-0-4-0-switcher-/131325283958?pt=Mod > el_RR_Trains&hash=item1e9398ce76 > > " This is a rare 0-4-0 ho mini antique switcher. This was of three > variations that were introduced and the only 0-4-0 online for sale. " > > For only $1299.00 .......... with free shipping......... > > Minus and not mentioned, ........the tender, the piston rods, the > cylinder > fittings; and out of focus and overly dark shots showing a variety of > chipped paint spots on the model. > > My favorite shot is this one..... > > http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/fHkAAOSwajVUQpmh/$_57.JPG > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > > > > > -- > > Don Dellmann > > Contact me at: > > _don.dellmann@..._ (mailto:don.dellmann@...) > > See my toys at: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > > Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23272	From: trainliker	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

 While the seller does look "sketchy" to me, the 75% feedback is based on only four transactions with one negative.  This statistically may not mean all that much in and of itself.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay   A 75% Positive Feedback rating; who would even consider buying from him, with that kind of risk, even if his prices were sane?   Ray W.     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I noticed he ended the auction this morning, I don't know when it started. He has one of the worst feedback scores I've ever seen on eBay. I especially like the negative one Don On 10/21/2014 11:52 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Well........ Maybe not. But the seller thinks it is. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Train-Co-Rare-0-4-0-switcher-/131325283958?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e9398ce76 " This is a rare 0-4-0 ho mini antique switcher. This was of three variations that were introduced and the only 0-4-0 online for sale. " For only $1299.00 .......... with free shipping......... Minus and not mentioned, ........the tender, the piston rods, the cylinder fittings; and out of focus and overly dark shots showing a variety of chipped paint spots on the model. My favorite shot is this one..... http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/fHkAAOSwajVUQpmh/$_57.JPG Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23273	From: Dave Robison	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Gee, Ray, if you REALLY have to have one of these, I've got a pretty similar one I'd sell a LOT cheaper! Actually about one-and-a-half, I bought one thinking some of the fittings might look nice on my old Mantua "Goat" but these "New One" models are bigger, so then I bought another for the tender and parts to more-or-less complete the first… Incidentally, since they are larger than the Mantua model does anyone happen to know if maybe the New One models are OO scale instead of HO? Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 11:21 AM   AWW, it already ended , at 12:48 PM EDT; never got the chance to bid on it < g >.  Yeah, it bit much, but the shipping was FREE < g >.  Looks like it could have been a model from "New One," but I can't be sure and I don't prefer to put too much time into it to figure it out.  We've seen a few grossly overpriced one up on eBay from time to time; these guys never know when to quit trying to gouge.  Could there really be someone that gullible?    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:10:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   It almost seems like criminal misrepresentation to me.      -----Original Message----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 1:05 pm Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay Not rare and not all that valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the 2 and the first 9.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, Oct ober 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay   Hi Mike, I do not think these engines are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23274	From: Dave Robison	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Well, gee, Ray, if you REALLY have to have one of these, I'd sell you my similar one (plus extra parts!) for only HALF the price! I believe these are indeed "New One" models; I bought one thinking some of the brass trim bits might look good on my old brass/diecast Mantua "Goat" but the New One is larger — does anyone happen to know if they might be OO scale instead of HO? Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 11:21 AM       AWW, it already ended , at 12:48 PM EDT; never got the chance to bid on it < g >.  Yeah, it bit much, but the shipping was FREE < g >.  Looks like it could have been a model from "New One," but I can't be sure and I don't prefer to put too much time into it to figure it out.  We've seen a few grossly overpriced one up on eBay from time to time; these guys never know when to quit trying to gouge.  Could there really be someone that gullible?    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:10:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:              It almost seems like criminal    misrepresentation to me.               -----Original    Message----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 1:05    pm Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                Not rare and not all that    valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the    2 and the first 9.         John Hagen                 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]     Sent: Tuesday, Oct ober 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO    Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on    eBay                         Hi Mike, I do not think these engines    are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few    months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am    using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel    Holmes                       Reply via web          post          •          Reply to sender                    •          Reply to group                    •          Start a New          Topic          •          Messages in this          topic (3)        Visit Your    Group                • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use            .                                                 #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978 --    #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad p { margin:0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23275	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

If I remember correctly, early Japanese bress was 1:80 scale.  JNR is mostly 42 in. gauge  so the larger size more closely matches HO track.  And it was more saleable overseas.   Fred Holladay From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:54:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay   Well, gee, Ray, if you REALLY have to have one of these, I'd sell you my similar one (plus extra parts!) for only HALF the price! I believe these are indeed "New One" models; I bought one thinking some of the brass trim bits might look good on my old brass/diecast Mantua "Goat" but the New One is larger — does anyone happen to know if they might be OO scale instead of HO? Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 11:21 AM       AWW, it already ended , at 12:48 PM EDT; never got the chance to bid on it < g >.  Yeah, it bit much, but the shipping was FREE < g >.  Looks like it could have been a model from "New One," but I can't be sure and I don't prefer to put too much time into it to figure it out.  We've seen a few grossly overpriced one up on eBay from time to time; these guys never know when to quit trying to gouge.  Could there really be someone that gullible?    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:10:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:              It almost seems like criminal    misrepresentation to me.               -----Original    Message----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 1:05    pm Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                Not rare and not all that    valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the    2 and the first 9.         John Hagen                 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]     Sent: Tuesday, Oct ober 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO    Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on    eBay                         Hi Mike, I do not think these engines    are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few    months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am    using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel    Holmes                       Reply via web          post          •          Reply to sender                    •          Reply to group                    •          Start a New          Topic          •          Messages in this          topic (3)        Visit Your    Group                • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use            .                                                 #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978 --    #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad p { margin:0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23276	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

I saw 42 transactions and I just (erroneously) assumed they were all Sells.  Looks like 38 of them are Buys then.  Yeah, the 75% rating can't mean too much then.  With checking out his other auctions, the rest aren't all model rr related, so I have to wonder if he knows enough about the subject to be able to price them.    Ray W.     In a message dated 10/21/2014 5:13:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:    While the seller does look "sketchy" to me, the 75% feedback is based on only four transactions with one negative.  This statistically may not mean all that much in and of itself.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay   A 75% Positive Feedback rating; who would even consider buying from him, with that kind of risk, even if his prices were sane?   Ray W.     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:30:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I noticed he ended the auction this morning, I don't know when it started. He has one of the worst feedback scores I've ever seen on eBay. I especially like the negative one Don On 10/21/2014 11:52 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Well........ Maybe not. But the seller thinks it is. http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Train-Co-Rare-0-4-0-switcher-/131325283958?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e9398ce76 " This is a rare 0-4-0 ho mini antique switcher. This was of three variations that were introduced and the only 0-4-0 online for sale. " For only $1299.00 .......... with free shipping......... Minus and not mentioned, ........the tender, the piston rods, the cylinder fittings; and out of focus and overly dark shots showing a variety of chipped paint spots on the model. My favorite shot is this one..... http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTE5NVgxNjAw/z/fHkAAOSwajVUQpmh/$_57.JPG Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23277	From: Dennis Kunkel	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

It's been re-listed. Price has been slashed to $899.99 with buy it now. Hurry before it's sold... Dennis K. From: "Fred Holladay fvh2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 8:03 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                If I remember correctly, early Japanese bress was 1:80 scale.  JNR is mostly 42 in. gauge  so the larger size more closely matches HO track.  And it was more saleable overseas.   Fred Holladay From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:54:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay   Well, gee, Ray, if you REALLY have to have one of these, I'd sell you my similar one (plus extra parts!) for only HALF the price! I believe these are indeed "New One" models; I bought one thinking some of the brass trim bits might look good on my old brass/diecast Mantua "Goat" but the New One is larger — does anyone happen to know if they might be OO scale instead of HO? Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 11:21 AM       AWW, it already ended , at 12:48 PM EDT; never got the chance to bid on it < g >.  Yeah, it bit much, but the shipping was FREE < g >.  Looks like it could have been a model from "New One," but I can't be sure and I don't prefer to put too much time into it to figure it out.  We've seen a few grossly overpriced one up on eBay from time to time; these guys never know when to quit trying to gouge.  Could there really be someone that gullible?    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:10:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:              It almost seems like criminal    misrepresentation to me.               -----Original    Message----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 1:05    pm Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                Not rare and not all that    valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the    2 and the first 9.         John Hagen                 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]     Sent: Tuesday, Oct ober 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO    Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on    eBay                         Hi Mike, I do not think these engines    are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few    months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am    using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel    Holmes                       Reply via web          post          •          Reply to sender                    •          Reply to group                    •          Start a New          Topic          •          Messages in this          topic (3)        Visit Your    Group                • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use            .                                                 #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978 --    #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad p { margin:0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23278	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

I already have an option to buy the Brooklyn Bridge so I'm a little short on funds this week.  Maybe next week.   Ray W.     In a message dated 10/22/2014 1:50:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   It's been re-listed. Price has been slashed to $899.99 with buy it now. Hurry before it's sold... Dennis K. From: "Fred Holladay fvh2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 8:03 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                If I remember correctly, early Japanese bress was 1:80 scale.  JNR is mostly 42 in. gauge  so the larger size more closely matches HO track.  And it was more saleable overseas.   Fred Holladay From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:54:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay   Well, gee, Ray, if you REALLY have to have one of these, I'd sell you my similar one (plus extra parts!) for only HALF the price! I believe these are indeed "New One" models; I bought one thinking some of the brass trim bits might look good on my old brass/diecast Mantua "Goat" but the New One is larger — does anyone happen to know if they might be OO scale instead of HO? Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 11:21 AM       AWW, it already ended , at 12:48 PM EDT; never got the chance to bid on it < g >.  Yeah, it bit much, but the shipping was FREE < g >.  Looks like it could have been a model from "New One," but I can't be sure and I don't prefer to put too much time into it to figure it out.  We've seen a few grossly overpriced one up on eBay from time to time; these guys never know when to quit trying to gouge.  Could there really be someone that gullible?    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:10:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:              It almost seems like criminal    misrepresentation to me.               -----Original    Message----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 1:05    pm Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                Not rare and not all that    valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the    2 and the first 9.         John Hagen                 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]     Sent: Tuesday, Oct ober 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO    Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on    eBay                         Hi Mike, I do not think these engines    are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few    months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am    using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel    Holmes                       Reply via web          post          •          Reply to sender                    •          Reply to group                    •          Start a New          Topic          •          Messages in this          topic (3)        Visit Your    Group                • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use            .                                                 #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978 --    #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad p { margin:0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23279	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Rats.   I just bought vacation land in Florida so I’m also short this week.   That said I still think he has the decimal point two places too far to the right.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 1:31 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay     I already have an option to buy the Brooklyn Bridge so I'm a little short on funds this week.  Maybe next week.   Ray W.     In a message dated 10/22/2014 1:50:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   It's been re-listed. Price has been slashed to $899.99 with buy it now. Hurry before it's sold...   Dennis K.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23280	From: 23weldon	Date: 10/21/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Speaking rarities on eBay there is a decent sized collection of HOn3 brass listed and all of the locomotives and tenders are listed separately and attracting bids.  Mostly for tenders.  Maybe $5-7K worth of HOn3 steam.  Hard to believe a serious volume dealer would be so ignorant. I'm guessing it was an estate and the buyer of the lot simply pulled them off a display case and put them all separately in one box.  Then when he got back to his cave he had no idea which went with which.  One would expect in this situation if the original owner even kept all the boxes they would have been sent to the landfill by whoever cleaned out the house.  If any of you guys are interested in hon3 brass this seller may be worth watching.  I think there are bargains to be had. Seem to be no reserves on anything.  5-6 days left on this stuff.  Search on hon3 in toys and hobbies and sort on newly listed ......................Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23281	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

This guy has a LOT of trains on eBay. Although he is not the most knowledgeable in trains his prices start very low. Worth viewing.   http://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=ho+-marklin&_ssn=108spoplar&hash=item2a462b636f&item=181565875055&pt=Model_RR_Trains&_from=R40|R40|R40&_osacat=479&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X.TRS0&_nkw=&_sacat=479     Or item # 181535555135 to get you started     John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 1:48 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re: something rare on eBay     Speaking rarities on eBay there is a decent sized collection of HOn3 brass listed and all of the locomotives and tenders are listed separately and attracting bids.  Mostly for tenders.  Maybe $5-7K worth of HOn3 steam.  Hard to believe a serious volume dealer would be so ignorant. I'm guessing it was an estate and the buyer of the lot simply pulled them off a display case and put them all separately in one box.  Then when he got back to his cave he had no idea which went with which.  One would expect in this situation if the original owner even kept all the boxes they would have been sent to the landfill by whoever cleaned out the house.  If any of you guys are interested in hon3 brass this seller may be worth watching.  I think there are bargains to be had. Seem to be no reserves on anything.  5-6 days left on this stuff.  Search on hon3 in toys and hobbies and sort on newly listed ......................Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23282	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

On 22/10/14 5:52, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Well........ > > Maybe not. > > But the seller thinks it is. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/HO-Train-Co-Rare-0-4-0-switcher-/131325283958?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e9398ce76 > > " This is a rare 0-4-0 ho mini antique switcher. This was of three variations that were introduced and the only 0-4-0 online for sale." > > For only $1299.00 .......... with free shipping......... > > Minus and not mentioned, ........the tender, the piston rods, the cylinder fittings; and out of focus and overly dark shots showing a variety of chipped paint spots on the model. Read this from his feedback, and do as advised: Negative feedback rating Fake name, fake address, serial numbers removed. RUN AWAY!!!!!! s***s ( 2117Red star icon for feedback score in between 1,000 to 4,999) During past month Trimble Sps880 Extreme Base/ Rover (#131309283366) -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23283	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay ("New One" write up link)

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/15453-vintage-steamer-model--new-one-tokyo Just for those that had not heard of them before RogerW From: "Fred Holladay fvh2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 8:03 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                If I remember correctly, early Japanese bress was 1:80 scale.  JNR is mostly 42 in. gauge  so the larger size more closely matches HO track.  And it was more saleable overseas.   Fred Holladay From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:54:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay   Well, gee, Ray, if you REALLY have to have one of these, I'd sell you my similar one (plus extra parts!) for only HALF the price! I believe these are indeed "New One" models; I bought one thinking some of the brass trim bits might look good on my old brass/diecast Mantua "Goat" but the New One is larger — does anyone happen to know if they might be OO scale instead of HO? Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 11:21 AM       AWW, it already ended , at 12:48 PM EDT; never got the chance to bid on it < g >.  Yeah, it bit much, but the shipping was FREE < g >.  Looks like it could have been a model from "New One," but I can't be sure and I don't prefer to put too much time into it to figure it out.  We've seen a few grossly overpriced one up on eBay from time to time; these guys never know when to quit trying to gouge.  Could there really be someone that gullible?    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:10:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:              It almost seems like criminal    misrepresentation to me.               -----Original    Message----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 1:05    pm Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                Not rare and not all that    valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the    2 and the first 9.         John Hagen                 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]     Sent: Tuesday, Oct ober 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO    Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on    eBay                         Hi Mike, I do not think these engines    are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few    months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am    using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel    Holmes                       Reply via web          post          •          Reply to sender                    •          Reply to group                    •          Start a New          Topic          •          Messages in this          topic (3)        Visit Your    Group                • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use            .                                                 #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978 --    #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad p { margin:0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23284	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Ray, Yes, it was a 'New One' die cast 0-4-0 "Mother Hubbard" nominally patterned after the Reading 0-4-0s with the Wooten firebox. They were lousy engines when new and have not aged well. I have owned four and sold all of them.  Matt ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote : AWW, it already ended , at 12:48 PM EDT; never got the chance to bid on it < g >.  Yeah, it bit much, but the shipping was FREE < g >.  Looks like it could have been a model from "New One," but I can't be sure and I don't prefer to put too much time into it to figure it out.  We've seen a few grossly overpriced one up on eBay from time to time; these guys never know when to quit trying to gouge.  Could there really be someone that gullible?    Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23285	From: Keith Douglass	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

I'm pretty sure this is the International 0-4-0 camelback that I bought new  in the '60s for $15.00.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23286	From: Riverboy	Date: 10/22/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay ("New One" write up link)

It has been relisted and "reduced" to $899.99 LOL! Tod C Dwyer (Ohio)   On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 9:55 AM, "Roger Whiffin roger48_gb@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/15453-vintage-steamer-model--new-one-tokyo Just for those that had not heard of them before RogerW From: "Fred Holladay fvh2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 8:03 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                If I remember correctly, early Japanese bress was 1:80 scale.  JNR is mostly 42 in. gauge  so the larger size more closely matches HO track.  And it was more saleable overseas.   Fred Holladay From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 12:54:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay   Well, gee, Ray, if you REALLY have to have one of these, I'd sell you my similar one (plus extra parts!) for only HALF the price! I believe these are indeed "New One" models; I bought one thinking some of the brass trim bits might look good on my old brass/diecast Mantua "Goat" but the New One is larger — does anyone happen to know if they might be OO scale instead of HO? Dave R. -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 10/21/14, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, October 21, 2014, 11:21 AM       AWW, it already ended , at 12:48 PM EDT; never got the chance to bid on it < g >.  Yeah, it bit much, but the shipping was FREE < g >.  Looks like it could have been a model from "New One," but I can't be sure and I don't prefer to put too much time into it to figure it out.  We've seen a few grossly overpriced one up on eBay from time to time; these guys never know when to quit trying to gouge.  Could there really be someone that gullible?    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 10/21/2014 2:10:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:              It almost seems like criminal    misrepresentation to me.               -----Original    Message----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO    <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Oct 21, 2014 1:05    pm Subject: RE: [vintageHO] something rare on eBay                Not rare and not all that    valuable. Me thinks the seller forgot to put the decimal point in between the    2 and the first 9.         John Hagen                 From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com]     Sent: Tuesday, Oct ober 21, 2014 12:30 PM To: Vintage HO    Group Subject: Re: [vintageHO] something rare on    eBay                         Hi Mike, I do not think these engines    are "rare." I have seen quite a few of these on EBay over the past few    months. I have two of them from the 50's or 60's and neither work. I am    using them for parts to make other engines more realistic. Joel    Holmes                       Reply via web          post          •          Reply to sender                    •          Reply to group                    •          Start a New          Topic          •          Messages in this          topic (3)        Visit Your    Group                • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use            .                                                 #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978 --    #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp #yiv5895902978ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp .yiv5895902978ad p { margin:0;} #yiv5895902978 #yiv5895902978ygrp-mkp 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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23287	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 10/23/2014
Subject: Re: something rare on eBay

Yes, that’s my kind of ebay seller!   Jim W

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23288	From: jbark76	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Railroad Model Craftsman

Just got the new RMC and I am very pleased.  Format looks the same and there are a couple of articles that I think will be useful.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23289	From: thealamo	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Railroad Model Craftsman

Oct 24 2014 GOOD!  I am an old subscriber to R.M.C. from the other side of the "Big Pond" (Italy) and I hope to receive it in 2-3 weeks. Question:  can you tell me which date it has on the cover: July-August 2014? Thank you! Alamo On 24 October 2014 17:24, jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Just got the new RMC and I am very pleased.  Format looks the same and there are a couple of articles that I think will be useful.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23290	From: oklacnw	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

I see a lot of items on e-bay listed as "rare" etc;, so most of my early 1950-60 items must be worth a lot of money (from suckers out there). That goes for all of my blue box Athearn items, also. LOL Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23291	From: jbark76	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Railroad Model Craftsman

July-October

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23292	From: thealamo	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Railroad Model Craftsman

Oct 24 2014 Wow!  Four months on one issue!  Well, I know this was necessary to have the current issue to be update with the month of issue, in this case Jul-Oct issued in October, next issue will bear the November date and will be published/issued in November and so on. Subscribers will receive the exact issues covered by their subscription, i.e. Jul-Oct  will count as one issue and not as 4 issues. I am looking forward to receive my copy. Thank you! Ciao, Alamo On 24 October 2014 22:44, jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   July-October

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23293	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2

Hi Group,   Was just wondering if anyone here bought the Conover B&O 6100 Series (S-1) 2-10-2, 1953 vintage, that was put up on eBay a couple of weeks ago, on October 12.  It ended on October 17 as a Buy It Now, for $170.00 -- plus international shipping from Mexico at $48.90 (the bidding was opened at $130.00).  For those who hadn't seen it, the eBay number is 121459270979.  As many of us know, this cast bronze model was produced in 1938/39, but was re-offered by two other marketers post-War, from bought-up Conover inventory.  The description said that "Most of the small parts are missing, however all these pieces are available or could be replaced."  It also said that "It appears that the pony and the trailing truck are not the original.  It does not affect nothing, because in the manual you can read that the truck in the original parts were not of bronze."  The Seller did not have the instructions or manual, parts list, etc, but referred the prospective Buyer(s) to HOSeeker.   For starters, none of the missing pieces are available, although the post-War models' instruction manuals did recommend substituting the missing parts as these later kits were not all complete.  That the original (and missing here) pony and trailing trucks were not of bronze, I didn't see how that fact did not affect anything as they were still missing -- regardless of what metal they were made of, and no one would be able to find the originals to replace them unless they were able to find that individual modeler out there who just happened to have them (a very slim chance).    One thing I did see as a major plus with this kit is that unlike the factory-offered rough, sand-cast condition of Jim Heckard's model's boiler, which needed hours of metal work by him to get it smooth, this model's boiler was already worked to a nice smooth finish.  The price that this model went for was still a bargain, even with the $48 shipping (total of $218.90), but there were still quite a few missing parts that needed to substituted to complete it, and "the rod parts at the left side are not the original"  -- the model wouldn't be all-original when completed, if it matters to the modeler, but it is a rarity.  With the original right-side side-rod apparently present, at least a copy for the left side could be made, but this type of work needs to be precise in spacing the driver-mounting holes to prevent binding; they can't be off in the exact measurements required.  So, did anyone take this interesting piece?   Ray Wetzel

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23294	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/24/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

On 25/10/14 7:39, oklacnw@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I see a lot of items on e-bay listed as "rare" etc;, so most of my > early 1950-60 items must be worth a lot of money (from suckers out > there). That goes for all of my blue box Athearn items, also. LOL Al > E. Yep. You very quickly learn to ignore the 'rare' in the description, also 'collectible', 'mint', 'excellent condition', 'desirable' and so on.. I don't know why they do it.. Perhaps they think we don't know our subject. A lot is mis-described (if that's a word) - one currently on ebay is loco in a paint scheme and wheel arrangement which was never owned by the railroad in question. I sent them a polite message, pointing out the error, but got a sharp reply back that the description exactly fitted the manufacturer's box, correct or not, and the seller didn't really give a damn. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23295	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2

Is this Jim’s engine? I know he worked the boiler, but was looking for valve gear to complete it.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23296	From: Brad Smith	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

Do you mean that a manufacturer would actually put a road name on a model of an engine that the railroad never owned?  Maybe that is what makes it "rare".  Then "rare" would be an Athearn New Haven F7 or SDP40. The ones I love have the word "wow" in the title line.  Brad Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Oct 25, 2014, at 12:49 AM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 25/10/14 7:39, oklacnw@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I see a lot of items on e-bay listed as "rare" etc;, so most of my > early 1950-60 items must be worth a lot of money (from suckers out > there). That goes for all of my blue box Athearn items, also. LOL Al > E. Yep. You very quickly learn to ignore the 'rare' in the description, also 'collectible', 'mint', 'excellent condition', 'desirable' and so on.. I don't know why they do it.. Perhaps they think we don't know our subject. A lot is mis-described (if that's a word) - one currently on ebay is loco in a paint scheme and wheel arrangement which was never owned by the railroad in question. I sent them a polite message, pointing out the error, but got a sharp reply back that the description exactly fitted the manufacturer's box, correct or not, and the seller didn't really give a damn. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23297	From: Brad Smith	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Railroad Model Craftsman

The new owners did a wonderful job on the issue and have to be commended on honoring the standing subscriptions. They didn't have to do that. I had a year left on mine as I subscribe for multiple years.   It seems to be printed on heavier paper and the Editor is the same. I bet they kept the same staff.  Brad Franklin WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Oct 24, 2014, at 10:24 AM, jbark76@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Just got the new RMC and I am very pleased.  Format looks the same and there are a couple of articles that I think will be useful.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23298	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2

No, it's not Jim's engine.  You missed the part where I said it was to be shipped from Mexico.  The boiler also appeared to have a patina on it, as if the polishing were old.  I'm sure Jim's is still shiny new looking.   Ray W.       In a message dated 10/25/2014 6:42:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Is this Jim’s engine? I know he worked the boiler, but was looking for valve gear to complete it.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23299	From: the_plainsman	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2

Hi Ray W., I did not purchase it and failed to check the sellers entire listings when I came across the Kemtron Baldwin switcher he is also selling. I'm wishing I did check those listings, because the Conover was listed the week before at a starting price of a dollar and no one bid! I guess the $48 shipping charge may have scared some away, but think it would've been worth it especially with the work done on the boiler. Still amazing what parts can occasionally be found as well, once obe knows what one is looking for. Offf to NYSME this AM, see what I can find. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23300	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Mystery cast brass GG1 [5 Attachments]

Sean,   Getting back to your GG-1, if it didn't turn out that it was a George Stock, you might want to compare it to two General Hobbies Corp GG-1's now up on eBay -- with part of the description saying "Casting is marked "JAPAN."  These are 271561665953 and 281397827522.  Normally, I wouldn't post live auction numbers, but these models don't appear to be desirable (except maybe for parts) from their descriptions as they have numerous problems, including zamak rot on one.    Ray W.     In a message dated 9/25/2014 1:23:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   W. Jay & Ray, The mystery engine according to the USPS is out for delivery, so it should be home when I get home from work. I am pretty convinced now that it is a George Stock model. I will look at it closer when I get home, but I am willing to bet it may just be a very early casting.  I did take a few pictures of my other George Stock brass GG1 engine this morning and posted them to Flickr. In my box of FAMOCO parts, I was pretty excited to see I also had a pair of George Stock chassis, motors & drivers. That was a unique find! You know it is bad when you have so many boxes full of stuff and you don't have a clue what is all in them all.   I've attached a couple here....    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Hi Sean,   Yes, You're right; that your mystery GG-1 is of cast brass, it momentarily went past me when I suggested FAMOCO.  My FAMOCO GG-1 is also die cast zamak so I should have known but just wasn't thinking straight.  Is there a chance that the builder might have filed the raised keystone off (of a Schrader) and smoothed out the casting, the same as Jim had to do with his Conover 2-10-2?  Just can't think of what else it could be.  Maybe Jim Heckard might know when you talk to him.  Please give him my best regards.   Ray W.      In a message dated 9/23/2014 3:57:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello W. Ray, I also have a box of FAMOCO parts. This does not match them... See attached pic of the FAMOCO models I have. The pantographs were made of die cast metal. The shells of those models were die cast zimax and not brass or bronze.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "the_plainsman@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 12:08 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Mystery cast brass GG1   Sean, On second look, if it is scale length, how about FAMOCO – Famous Model Company – I believe located in Long Island City, Queens New York circa 1940s. I only have a shell packed away, but the remnants of the pantographs do not seem to match yours. Jim Heckard has a FAMOCO unit pictured in one of his albums here. W.Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23301	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

Some of these sellers really piss me off but for the most part I just sorta chuckle.   What I don’t get is the guys that use all these exaggerations euphuism, ask a ridiculous price and fail to see several other examples of the same “rare” piece on eBay, most with much lower prices and even a few on actual auction with bids around one tenth of their price. And they will keep on listing and relisting and relisting an……   There is a Varney Dockside that has been on eBay for a couple of at least months (item 281474834126) titled “B&O Varney HO Lil Joe 0-4-0 Dockside Steam Engine Central Valley Valve Gear Train” that is an original diecast version but has no valve gear kit from CV or anyone. It appears the original side and main rods are there with a couple of screws but there are missing parts. And, the sellers photos, quite good photos really show that the cab and boiler casting have numerous cracks and the whole thing is basically scrap. After a couple of price reductions he is now asking only $59.21. I think he was either just above or below $90.00 when he started.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:13 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rare,Vintage, etc     Do you mean that a manufacturer would actually put a road name on a model of an engine that the railroad never owned?  Maybe that is what makes it "rare".  Then "rare" would be an Athearn New Haven F7 or SDP40. The ones I love have the word "wow" in the title line.    Brad Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod Posted by: Brad Smith <corlissbs@...> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23302	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Cast Bronze FTA & FTB

Howard,   It has very recently come to my attention that at least some of the parts of some of Adams & Sons EMD F units & E units were embossed with "A&S".  Try looking over all the parts to your FT to find any such markings.  Maybe you'll get lucky in finding the I.D. there somewhere.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 7/29/2014 4:57:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   There's the good chance that these bodies may have been cast by Adams & Sons Casting, but they never marketed anything directly.  This foundry would have had to be commissioned to cast these bodies by one of the early H0 manufacturers of that time, such as Harry L. Garrett or Gordon Varney or . . .  (Adams produced castings for both of these manufacturers, and very likely at least several others).    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 7/29/2014 3:56:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   > Posted a new folder in the Photos section > Howard's FTs > These were found at the Springfield Show this January. > > Any ID help would be appreciated. > > Howard Garner >   I'll take a guess:  Adams & Sons Castings. Regards,   Louis N

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23303	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

Hi All, I will give him a dollar and he can pay the postage. Joel Holmes > Some of these sellers really piss me off but for the most part I just > sorta chuckle. > > > > What I don’t get is the guys that use all these exaggerations euphuism, > ask a ridiculous price and fail to see several other examples of the same > “rare” piece on eBay, most with much lower prices and even a few on > actual auction with bids around one tenth of their price. And they will > keep on listing and relisting and relisting an…… > > > > > There is a Varney Dockside that has been on eBay for a couple of at least > months (item 281474834126) titled “B&O Varney HO Lil Joe 0-4-0 Dockside > Steam Engine Central Valley Valve Gear Train” that is an original > diecast version but has no valve gear kit from CV or anyone. It appears > the original side and main rods are there with a couple of screws but > there are missing parts. And, the sellers photos, quite good photos really > show that the cab and boiler casting have numerous cracks and the whole > thing is basically scrap. After a couple of price reductions he is now > asking only $59.21. I think he was either just above or below $90.00 when > he started. > > > > > > John Hagen > > > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:13 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rare,Vintage, etc > > > > > > Do you mean that a manufacturer would actually put a road name on a model > of an engine that the railroad never owned? Maybe that is what makes it > "rare". Then "rare" would be an Athearn New Haven F7 or SDP40. The ones I > love have the word "wow" in the title line. > > > > Brad > > Franklin, WI > Sent from Brad's iPod > > > > > > _____ > > Posted by: Brad Smith <corlissbs@...> > > _____ > > > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/messages/23296;_ylc=X3oDMTJyb2UyMGZyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyMzI5NgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzE0MTQyMzU2MTY-?act=reply&messageNum=23296> > Reply via web post > > • > > <mailto:corlissbs@...?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Re%3A%20Rare%2CVintage%2C%20etc> > Reply to sender > > • > > <mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BvintageHO%5D%20Re%3A%20Rare%2CVintage%2C%20etc> > Reply to group > > • > > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJmb3ExbDBoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzE0MTQyMzU2MTY-> > Start a New Topic > > • > > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/conversations/topics/23290;_ylc=X3oDMTM3Zmp1NDl2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARtc2dJZAMyMzI5NgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN2dHBjBHN0aW1lAzE0MTQyMzU2MTYEdHBjSWQDMjMyOTA-> > Messages in this topic (3) > > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJma2N2b2o2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE0MTQyMzU2MTY-> > Visit Your Group > > <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcTdoMzByBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEyMTA0ODYyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAxNARzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTQxNDIzNTYxNg--> > Yahoo! Groups > > • <https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html> Privacy > • <mailto:vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe> > Unsubscribe • <https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/> Terms > of Use > > > > > > . > > <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=12104862/grpspId=1706043014/msgId=23296/stime=1414235616> > <http://y.analytics.yahoo.com/fpc.pl?ywarid=515FB27823A7407E&a=10001310322279&js=no&resp=img> > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23304	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

If you recall, Penn Line produced GG-1s in New Haven and Great Northern paint schemes, besides PRR.  So YES, manufactures can and will produce models in paint & lettering that a railroad never owned; we know it's done all the time to sell more models   Yeah, an Athearn New Haven F7 probably qualifies as "rare" to some Sellers.  "WOW" can only mean that the Seller is that enthused, and if so, then he should probably keep it if he's so thrilled about it.   Ray W.     In a message dated 10/25/2014 12:02:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Some of these sellers really piss me off but for the most part I just sorta chuckle. What I don’t get is the guys that use all these exaggerations euphuism, ask a ridiculous price and fail to see several other examples of the same “rare” piece on eBay, most with much lower prices and even a few on actual auction with bids around one tenth of their price. And they will keep on listing and relisting and relisting an…… There is a Varney Dockside that has been on eBay for a couple of at least months (item 281474834126) titled “B&O Varney HO Lil Joe 0-4-0 Dockside Steam Engine Central Valley Valve Gear Train” that is an original diecast version but has no valve gear kit from CV or anyone. It appears the original side and main rods are there with a couple of screws but there are missing parts. And, the sellers photos, quite good photos really show that the cab and boiler casting have numerous cracks and the whole thing is basically scrap. After a couple of price reductions he is now asking only $59.21. I think he was either just above or below $90.00 when he started. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:13 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rare,Vintage, etc   Do you mean that a manufacturer would actually put a road name on a model of an engine that the railroad never owned?  Maybe that is what makes it "rare".  Then "rare" would be an Athearn New Haven F7 or SDP40. The ones I love have the word "wow" in the title line.  Brad Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod Posted by: Brad Smith <corlissbs@...> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23305	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

Hi All, Take a look at the Various manufactures model of the 2-6-0C Camelback/Mother Hubbards that are lettered for many roads that never had Camelbacks. Joel Holmes > If you recall, Penn Line produced GG-1s in New Haven and Great Northern > paint schemes, besides PRR. So YES, manufactures can and will produce > models > in paint & lettering that a railroad never owned; we know it's done all > the time to sell more models Yeah, an Athearn New Haven F7 probably > qualifies as "rare" to some Sellers. "WOW" can only mean that the Seller > is that > enthused, and if so, then he should probably keep it if he's so thrilled > about it. > > Ray W. > > > > In a message dated 10/25/2014 12:02:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > > > Some of these sellers really piss me off but for the most part I just > sorta chuckle. > What I don’t get is the guys that use all these exaggerations euphuism, > ask a ridiculous price and fail to see several other examples of the same > “ > rare” piece on eBay, most with much lower prices and even a few on > actual > auction with bids around one tenth of their price. And they will keep on > listing and relisting and relisting an…… > There is a Varney Dockside that has been on eBay for a couple of at least > months (item 281474834126) titled “B&O Varney HO Lil Joe 0-4-0 > Dockside > Steam Engine Central Valley Valve Gear Train” that is an original > diecast > version but has no valve gear kit from CV or anyone. It appears the > original > side and main rods are there with a couple of screws but there are > missing > parts. And, the sellers photos, quite good photos really show that the > cab > and boiler casting have numerous cracks and the whole thing is basically > scrap. After a couple of price reductions he is now asking only $59.21. I > think he was either just above or below $90.00 when he started. > > John Hagen > > > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:13 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rare,Vintage, etc > > > > > > Do you mean that a manufacturer would actually put a road name on a model > of an engine that the railroad never owned? Maybe that is what makes it > "rare". Then "rare" would be an Athearn New Haven F7 or SDP40. The ones > I > love have the word "wow" in the title line. > > > > Brad > > Franklin, WI > Sent from Brad's iPod

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23306	From: Brad Smith	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

How about the short Tyco GG-1?  It too was made in New Haven McGinnis colors. Even Walthers produced two NH modern electric locos.  Such fun.  Brad Franklin WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Oct 25, 2014, at 12:34 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   If you recall, Penn Line produced GG-1s in New Haven and Great Northern paint schemes, besides PRR.  So YES, manufactures can and will produce models in paint & lettering that a railroad never owned; we know it's done all the time to sell more models   Yeah, an Athearn New Haven F7 probably qualifies as "rare" to some Sellers.  "WOW" can only mean that the Seller is that enthused, and if so, then he should probably keep it if he's so thrilled about it.   Ray W.     In a message dated 10/25/2014 12:02:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Some of these sellers really piss me off but for the most part I just sorta chuckle. What I don’t get is the guys that use all these exaggerations euphuism, ask a ridiculous price and fail to see several other examples of the same “rare” piece on eBay, most with much lower prices and even a few on actual auction with bids around one tenth of their price. And they will keep on listing and relisting and relisting an…… There is a Varney Dockside that has been on eBay for a couple of at least months (item 281474834126) titled “B&O Varney HO Lil Joe 0-4-0 Dockside Steam Engine Central Valley Valve Gear Train” that is an original diecast version but has no valve gear kit from CV or anyone. It appears the original side and main rods are there with a couple of screws but there are missing parts. And, the sellers photos, quite good photos really show that the cab and boiler casting have numerous cracks and the whole thing is basically scrap. After a couple of price reductions he is now asking only $59.21. I think he was either just above or below $90.00 when he started. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:13 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rare,Vintage, etc   Do you mean that a manufacturer would actually put a road name on a model of an engine that the railroad never owned?  Maybe that is what makes it "rare".  Then "rare" would be an Athearn New Haven F7 or SDP40. The ones I love have the word "wow" in the title line.  Brad Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod Posted by: Brad Smith <corlissbs@...> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23307	From: Jay Wanczyk	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Ulrich GN Peaked End GS Gon

Attachments : image-23307.jpg image-23307(1).jpg Hi All, Visited the annual swap meet of the NYSME in Carlstadt, NJ this AM as have occasionally found interesting vintage items there. No Conover or Adams brass or bronze today, but did finally find an elusive Ulrich peaked-end Great Northern general service drop bottom gondola in its original box at a fair price. Not sure of the story behind them, but they were only sold for a short time in the mid-1950's with the exclusive peaked ends, after which future GN runs had the standard straight ends. This one was only imissing one of the drop doors and cast metal Ulrich brake wheel, both of which I have in my parts collection. The older K-D's and draft gear covers were included. I had once read on an eBay description, (where they have sometimes garnered bids into the $30 range,) that the peaked end dies were soon damaged and not replaced, but do not know if that is the actual reason for their short production run, but it seems plausible. Does anyone know the actual story behind this original GN model's short life? Also picked up another of those neat Penn Line piggyback ramp loaders with the diecast sides and stamped aluminum deck. The sides are a match the prototype that was shown in the back pages of Model Railroader either in the 1960's or learly 1970's. The only parts that need upgrading are the toy-like balloon tires. I also picked up a stapled envelope seemingly containing a Red Ball all time Derick parts set which I'll open soon. As is typical of small shows, the Ulrich gon cost a fraction of what it would have on eBay and the piggyback ramp and derrick parts that were a dollar each. Similarly other parts I needed for projects including an NWSL universal kit, Smokey Valley Alco yard switch brass hand rail stanchion set and a few other parts including an Alloy Forms 1953 Buick Skylark kit, all were a dollar each from various sellers, so don't miss those smaller local shows! W. Jay W.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23308	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

MIne is a 1947 version and DID have the Central |Valley valve gear. It was part of a lot along with an early 50's  Mantua Booster and half a dozen wood and card freight cars.  As I recall I paid twenty five bucks for the whole lot. The bargains are still out there but you've got to know what you're looking at. Don On 10/25/2014 9:44 AM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Some of these sellers really piss me off but for the most part I just sorta chuckle.   What I don’t get is the guys that use all these exaggerations euphuism, ask a ridiculous price and fail to see several other examples of the same “rare” piece on eBay, most with much lower prices and even a few on actual auction with bids around one tenth of their price. And they will keep on listing and relisting and relisting an……   There is a Varney Dockside that has been on eBay for a couple of at least months (item 281474834126) titled “B&O Varney HO Lil Joe 0-4-0 Dockside Steam Engine Central Valley Valve Gear Train” that is an original diecast version but has no valve gear kit from CV or anyone. It appears the original side and main rods are there with a couple of screws but there are missing parts. And, the sellers photos, quite good photos really show that the cab and boiler casting have numerous cracks and the whole thing is basically scrap. After a couple of price reductions he is now asking only $59.21. I think he was either just above or below $90.00 when he started.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:13 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Rare,Vintage, etc     Do you mean that a manufacturer would actually put a road name on a model of an engine that the railroad never owned?  Maybe that is what makes it "rare".  Then "rare" would be an Athearn New Haven F7 or SDP40. The ones I love have the word "wow" in the title line.    Brad Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod Posted by: Brad Smith <corlissbs@...> Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (3) Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use . -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23309	From: Keith Douglass	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2

Want to know how modeling used to be? Go to the HOseeker file for this loco and click on the second line under this loco's heading; interesting instructions about heating the whole boiler with a torch before soldering, taking a break while doing all the filing necessary to smooth the castings, and how you should never paint a cold locomotive.  What a contrast to modern modelers who want everything to be done for them.  (I have to use a SCREWDRIVER??  EEK! Don't point that soldering gun at me!)

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23310	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2

Hi Keith, Just wanted to let you know that 25% of my cars are scratch built. Joel Holmes > Want to know how modeling used to be? Go to the HOseeker file for this > loco > and click on the second line under this loco's heading; interesting > instructions about heating the whole boiler with a torch before soldering, > taking a break while doing all the filing necessary to smooth the > castings, > and how you should never paint a cold locomotive. What a contrast to > modern modelers who want everything to be done for them. (I have to use a > SCREWDRIVER?? EEK! Don't point that soldering gun at me!) >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23311	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

Attachments : No. 700-1.jpg On 26/10/14 0:13, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Do you mean that a manufacturer would actually put a road name on a > model of an engine that the railroad never owned? Maybe that is what > makes it "rare". Then "rare" would be an Athearn New Haven F7 or > SDP40. The ones I love have the word "wow" in the title line. > > Brad Franklin, WI Hi Brad. Yep, You learn to leave those alone. And Yep. Here's the acution - still running - 5 days to go. MTH 80-3235-5, HO, 2-8-8-8-2 Triplex Steam Engine w/Proto-Sound 3E+ - Virginian ebay 390942982132 or direct link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/390942982132?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I'm a strong Virginian Railway fan and amateur researcher and historian. Virginian did have a triplex engine, 2-8-8-8-4 - it had a 4-wheel rear truck, and the lettering and number were different to what has been done to the model. (History lesson - The VGN loco proved unable to produce enough steam to work properly on the 2% grade and was eventually returned to the manufacturer and cut down into two locos. I don't think the original was ever paid for. Sorry, but a fascinating story - to me anyway!..) Erie had two of these locos, I think from memory, and both had a two-wheel rear truck. I'll attach a picture of the prototype, not sure if it will transmit or be blocked. Just be wary buying from this seller.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23312	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

On 26/10/14 3:44, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Some of these sellers really piss me off but for the most part I just > sorta chuckle. > There is a Varney Dockside that has been on eBay for a couple of at > least months (item 281474834126) titled “B&O Varney HO Lil Joe 0-4-0 > Dockside Steam Engine Central Valley Valve Gear Train” that is an > original diecast version but has no valve gear kit from CV or anyone. > It appears the original side and main rods are there with a couple of > screws but there are missing parts. And, the sellers photos, quite > good photos really show that the cab and boiler casting have numerous > cracks and the whole thing is basically scrap. After a couple of > price reductions he is now asking only $59.21. I think he was either > just above or below $90.00 when he started. I also collect Japanese Sakai and Seki (if anybody has any for sale - Sorry Moderator!). There is a boxed set with a very poor taped-up box which has been continuously listed for around two years now at $139, I think it is. At a sensible price I'd have bought it a long time ago, but I don't have time to negotiate with the seller.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23313	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/25/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

On 26/10/14 6:34, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > If you recall, Penn Line produced GG-1s in New Haven and Great Northern > paint schemes, besides PRR. So YES, manufactures can and will produce models > in paint& lettering that a railroad never owned; we know it's done all > the time to sell more models Yeah, an Athearn New Haven F7 probably > qualifies as "rare" to some Sellers. "WOW" can only mean that the Seller is that > enthused, and if so, then he should probably keep it if he's so thrilled > about it. L@@K! Really pisses me.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23314	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

Doug, et al, Good luck with selling that particular $600 model in the US.   With well over 14,000 sales and 100% rating this seller looks OK to me.  He’s just into MSRP.   Seems to me they could have made three locos out of it.  I don’t know the configuration of the 610 & 410. I bought one of these, an Erie, because I was told it was ‘rare’—just kidding.   I got it because of its uniqueness.   Actually the prototype was rare. Mine tends to ‘run out of electricity’ on my 4% grade. Happy modeling. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23315	From: saddlewood1	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: New Sellers on eBay

I don't know about you, but I am very frustrated with the increasing sellers we are getting on eBay. More and more, these sellers are buying whole collections from modelers.  The buyers are in the business of post cards, china, gift shop items, and have no idea of the products.  Statements like 'it runs', oh yeah, how?  Or more likely, 'we have no way of checking' (so buy this pig-in-a-poke), or more likely, I suspect--- we don't want to check------ especially annoying. Imagine eBay motors selling $60,000 car, with the comment "we don't know how it runs".  "If you don't like it, ship it back". "I offer a return policy", all you have to do is return the $500 loco w/insurance, at your expense.  A delightful prospect. I just saw a listing for a 35 year old Rivarossi loco with the fabulous 3 pole motor sticking out of the cab, for a steal at $259.00! (seller can't check it, because he deals in pocket watch fobs). I am aware of Rivarossi's  artificially increased prices after their transitions from AHM to Expo, to Lima, but, again, these were artificial pricing structures.  The monies we spend are 'discretionary' funds., and these seem to be a particular target now. Well, my Vintage Ho license may be revoked after this, but I just had to vent. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23316	From: saddlewood1	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: Rare,Vintage, etc

Hey Doug, Those two 'S' builders are way back.  Guess you are deep into Lenehan's Lexicons. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23317	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

On 27/10/14 11:49, avanti78@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I don't know about you, but I am very frustrated with the increasing sellers we are getting on eBay. > > > More and more, these sellers are buying whole collections from modelers. The buyers are in the business of post cards, china, gift shop items, and have no idea of the products. > Statements like 'it runs', oh yeah, how? Or more likely, 'we have no way of checking' (so buy this pig-in-a-poke), or more likely, I suspect--- we don't want to check------ especially annoying. > Imagine eBay motors selling $60,000 car, with the comment "we don't know how it runs". "If you don't like it, ship it back". > > > "I offer a return policy", all you have to do is return the $500 loco w/insurance, at your expense. A delightful prospect. > I just saw a listing for a 35 year old Rivarossi loco with the fabulous 3 pole motor sticking out of the cab, for a steal at $259.00! (seller can't check it, because he deals in pocket watch fobs). > I am aware of Rivarossi's artificially increased prices after their transitions from AHM to Expo, to Lima, but, again, these were artificial pricing structures. > > > The monies we spend are 'discretionary' funds., and these seem to be a particular target now. > Well, my Vintage Ho license may be revoked after this, but I just had to vent. > Denis I'm with you 100%, Denis.. Almost everything I buy comes off ebay, so all that you say applies to me.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23318	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

I do collect the American Flyer HO line of trains, but, what I'm seeing more and more of are the sellers of the S gauge trains disassembling the locomotives and selling the parts separately. That drives me nuts! Not only the fact that if you were to tally up the total cost of all the parts, so it could be put back together, costing a stupid sum of money but it's the action of doing it it the first place that is so obscene! That $60,000.00 auto will loose it's value if not kept original. Why is it a seller, even a train collector seller, thinks he increases the value of an item by taking it all apart? Stupid! Dominic On Sunday, October 26, 2014 6:49 PM, "avanti78@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I don't know about you, but I am very frustrated with the increasing sellers we are getting on eBay. More and more, these sellers are buying whole collections from modelers.  The buyers are in the business of post cards, china, gift shop items, and have no idea of the products.  Statements like 'it runs', oh yeah, how?  Or more likely, 'we have no way of checking' (so buy this pig-in-a-poke), or more likely, I suspect--- we don't want to check------ especially annoying. Imagine eBay motors selling $60,000 car, with the comment "we don't know how it runs".  "If you don't like it, ship it back". "I offer a return policy", all you have to do is return the $500 loco w/insurance, at your expense.  A delightful prospect. I just saw a listing for a 35 year old Rivarossi loco with the fabulous 3 pole motor sticking out of the cab, for a steal at $259.00! (seller can't check it, because he deals in pocket watch fobs). I am aware of Rivarossi's  artificially increased prices after their transitions from AHM to Expo, to Lima, but, again, these were artificial pricing structures.  The monies we spend are 'discretionary' funds., and these seem to be a particular target now. Well, my Vintage Ho license may be revoked after this, but I just had to vent. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23319	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

On 27/10/14 13:04, 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I do collect the American Flyer HO line of trains, but, what I'm > seeing more and more of are the sellers of the S gauge trains > disassembling the locomotives and selling the parts separately. That > drives me nuts! Not only the fact that if you were to tally up the > total cost of all the parts, so it could be put back together, > costing a stupid sum of money but it's the action of doing it it the > first place that is so obscene! That $60,000.00 auto will loose it's > value if not kept original. Why is it a seller, even a train > collector seller, thinks he increases the value of an item by taking > it all apart? Stupid! Dominic They're not stupid, Dominc - just plain greedy. Well, maybe stupid as well.. Another thing that pisses me off is selling a steam loco and tender separately, with all the angst that that generates.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23320	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

"Or more likely" ?  It's quite possible these Sellers have already tested the engines and found them not to run . . . but, you're not going to know this.  Instead, they just say they have no way of testing it and leave it up to the Buyer to take the chance to find out whether it runs or not.  As it's understood by the Buyer before he even places a bid on it that it's untested (AS IS), the Seller is off the hook when it's found by the Buyer to be burned out.  Do you think I'm too cynical < g >?   I've never understood the part about a Buyer needing to pay for the return shipping when an item was found to be defective or not as advertised.  It's not as though the Buyer arbitrarily just changed his mind and no longer liked it.  It's the Seller's item that was faulty -- and it should be the Seller's responsibility to pay for the defective (or inaccurately described) item that he sold.  eBay should never have allowed such a stupid blanket ruling that the Buyer needs to pay for the return of an item, no matter what.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 10/26/2014 5:49:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I don't know about you, but I am very frustrated with the increasing sellers we are getting on eBay.  Statements like 'it runs', oh yeah, how?  Or more likely, 'we have no way of checking' (so buy this pig-in-a-poke), or more likely, I suspect--- we don't want to check------ especially annoying. Imagine eBay motors selling $60,000 car, with the comment "we don't know how it runs".  "If you don't like it, ship it back". "I offer a return policy", all you have to do is return the $500 loco w/insurance, at your expense.  A delightful prospect. I just saw a listing for a 35 year old Rivarossi loco with the fabulous 3 pole motor sticking out of the cab, for a steal at $259.00! (seller can't check it, because he deals in pocket watch fobs). Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23321	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

On 27/10/14 14:07, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > "Or more likely" ? It's quite possible these Sellers have already tested > the engines and found them not to run . . . but, you're not going to know > this. Instead, they just say they have no way of testing it and leave it up > to the Buyer to take the chance to find out whether it runs or not. As > it's understood by the Buyer before he even places a bid on it that it's > untested (AS IS), the Seller is off the hook when it's found by the Buyer to be > burned out. Do you think I'm too cynical< g>? No! It's fairly easy to guess from what other items the seller has whether he is able to test run or not. > I've never understood the part about a Buyer needing to pay for the return > shipping when an item was found to be defective or not as advertised. > It's not as though the Buyer arbitrarily just changed his mind and no longer > liked it. It's the Seller's item that was faulty -- and it should be the > Seller's responsibility to pay for the defective (or inaccurately described) > item that he sold. eBay should never have allowed such a stupid blanket > ruling that the Buyer needs to pay for the return of an item, no matter what. > Ray Wetzel The buyer can of course get his own back by leaving poor feedback for the seller. Even a little can apparently have strong effects on the seller. Unfortunately it's against the rules (well, I think it is) to threaten bad feedback. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23322	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

I agree. I see this trend in other areas also. Once dismantled, it's gone forever. Some say they're providing a "service" by making "affordable" parts available to those who want to repair/restore their existing units. But what of those of us who actually want that unit? Where are we going to find it if they all get dismantled? We seem to have a scrapper's mentality on Ebay, not a collector's or user's. Ken A Starcher Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10/26/14, 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:04 PM I do collect the American Flyer HO line of trains, but, what I'm seeing more and more of are the sellers of the S gauge trains disassembling the locomotives and selling the parts separately. That drives me nuts! Not only the fact that if you were to tally up the total cost of all the parts, so it could be put back together, costing a stupid sum of money but it's the action of doing it it the first place that is so obscene! That $60,000.00 auto will loose it's value if not kept original. Why is it a seller, even a train collector seller, thinks he increases the value of an item by taking it all apart? Stupid!Dominic

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23323	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 10/26/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Those that do, have been asked why they do this........... They reply that it increases their 'take'. They must end up with a huge box of misc. unsold vintage parts after a while..... Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Oct 27, 2014, at 12:44 AM, Ken Starcher ohiocanal@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > I agree. I see this trend in other areas also. Once dismantled, it's gone forever. Some say they're providing a "service" by making "affordable" parts available to those who want to repair/restore their existing units. But what of those of us who actually want that unit? Where are we going to find it if they all get dismantled? We seem to have a scrapper's mentality on Ebay, not a collector's or user's. > > Ken A Starcher > Cuyahoga Falls OH 44221 > > -------------------------------------------- > On Sun, 10/26/14, 'DOM ST.JOHN' jsangiovanni@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay > To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:04 PM > I do collect the American Flyer HO line of trains, but, what I'm seeing > more and more of are the sellers of the S gauge trains > disassembling the locomotives and selling the parts > separately. That drives me nuts! Not only the fact that if > you were to tally up the total cost of all the parts, so it > could be put back together, costing a stupid sum of money > but it's the action of doing it it the first place that > is so obscene! That $60,000.00 auto will loose it's > value if not kept original. Why is it a seller, even a train > collector seller, thinks he increases the value of an item > by taking it all apart? Stupid!Dominic

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23324	From: roblmclear	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Personally I don't buy from these people and I think eBay should take action to prevent the locomotive and tender from being sold separately but I don't think that is ever going to happen and I think the only way to stop the practice is not to buy from those that do it. Rob McLear. Aussie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23325	From: greenbrier614	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Not to mention those sellers who have started spraying AF locos with WD40 or Pam cooking spray, or whatever it is they use to make them look glossier in photos. I'd like to know who was the first genius to have that 7 watt bulb go on above his / her head. If a loco is damaged and really only good for parts, then I don't have a problem with someone parting it out. I'd do the same. But disassembling a good or pristine locomotive for parts... that gets problematic, especially if it's a rare piece. If that mentality takes hold the collectors market will cannibalize itself. That bit about being unable to test a loco before selling really gets me, too. Do you own a 9 volt battery? Isn't there at least one cheap trains set transformer in amongst the junk you're selling? I can't imagine selling something without knowing it's operational state, but in such instances I just assume a vintage locomotive needs the basic cleaning and lubrication, and inevitably most issues are minor and well within my ability to fix. That can work to my advantage, deal-wise. It irks me more when it comes from someone who does know about trains, but can't be bothered to check, like the dealer I bought a diesel from at a train show Sunday. Because of this I haggled with him on price, and his hackles went up immediately (I only asked for a $1 off). After an unpleasant go-round, I finally gave him his asking price, and once I got it home it turned out to be a good deal as the unit is pristine, probably never having seen any run time. He could easily have known this and asked more; instead his condescending, defensive attitude caused me to come away from the show with a bad taste in my mouth. It was obvious he thought he was a big wheeler-dealer, even going so far as to tell me to stop looking at the junk (his junk!) and buy one of his Katos. Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <jsangiovanni@...> wrote : I do collect the American Flyer HO line of trains, but, what I'm seeing more and more of are the sellers of the S gauge trains disassembling the locomotives and selling the parts separately. That drives me nuts! Not only the fact that if you were to tally up the total cost of all the parts, so it could be put back together, costing a stupid sum of money but it's the action of doing it it the first place that is so obscene! That $60,000.00 auto will loose it's value if not kept original. Why is it a seller, even a train collector seller, thinks he increases the value of an item by taking it all apart? Stupid! Dominic

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23326	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Nelson, you beat me to the punch on the WD 40. Whenever I see that I try to scare the sellers into thinking the paint and graphics are going to come off. That is another one of those things that drives me crazy! I contact everyone of these car detailers hopefully to keep them from doing it again. I see we all think alike around here! Dom On Monday, October 27, 2014 8:01 AM, "greenbrier614@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Not to mention those sellers who have started spraying AF locos with WD40 or Pam cooking spray, or whatever it is they use to make them look glossier in photos. I'd like to know who was the first genius to have that 7 watt bulb go on above his / her head. If a loco is damaged and really only good for parts, then I don't have a problem with someone parting it out. I'd do the same. But disassembling a good or pristine locomotive for parts... that gets problematic, especially if it's a rare piece. If that mentality takes hold the collectors market will cannibalize itself. That bit about being unable to test a loco before selling really gets me, too. Do you own a 9 volt battery? Isn't there at least one cheap trains set transformer in amongst the junk you're selling? I can't imagine selling something without knowing it's operational state, but in such instances I just assume a vintage locomotive needs the basic cleaning and lubrication, and inevitably most issues are minor and well within my ability to fix. That can work to my advantage, deal-wise. It irks me more when it comes from someone who does know about trains, but can't be bothered to check, like the dealer I bought a diesel from at a train show Sunday. Because of this I haggled with him on price, and his hackles went up immediately (I only asked for a $1 off). After an unpleasant go-round, I finally gave him his asking price, and once I got it home it turned out to be a good deal as the unit is pristine, probably never having seen any run time. He could easily have known this and asked more; instead his condescending, defensive attitude caused me to come away from the show with a bad taste in my mouth. It was obvious he thought he was a big wheeler-dealer, even going so far as to tell me to stop looking at the junk (his junk!) and buy one of his Katos. Nelson ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <jsangiovanni@...> wro! te : I do collect the American Flyer HO line of trains, but, what I'm seeing more and more of are the sellers of the S gauge trains disassembling the locomotives and selling the parts separately. That drives me nuts! Not only the fact that if you were to tally up the total cost of all the parts, so it could be put back together, costing a stupid sum of money but it's the action of doing it it the first place that is so obscene! That $60,000.00 auto will loose it's value if not kept original. Why is it a seller, even a train collector seller, thinks he increases the value of an item by taking it all apart? Stupid! Dominic

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23327	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

While I feel that these sellers who “part out” perfectly good locos or whatever ought to be treated like horse thieves in the old west and strung up from the nearest tree. Of course stringing up from the nearest HO tree ain’t gonna be that big a deal but you gets my drift.   Those who separate their tender behinds should be forced to ride forever on the MTA along with good ol’ Charlie.   As dastardly as these actions are there is really no way to stop the bastards from doing it, either by eBay rules, federal ,state or local regulations of by common decency. Just start sending them messages that you refuse to buy from them and you advise all your friends to do the same. May help or may not but you gets your ire out by sending the message.   Can’t test it? Ever look on eBay Motors and see how many sellers list vehicles, some for rather high numbers and then have in the listing “Haven’t tried to start it?” I mean what idiots.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:27 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay     Personally I don't buy from these people and I think eBay should take action to prevent the locomotive and tender from being sold separately but I don't think that is ever going to happen and I think the only way to stop the practice is not to buy from those that do it.   Rob McLear. Aussie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23328	From: DOM ST.JOHN	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

John, I do think that most of those listings do go with no bids. I know I won't touch them. Those listings are so obvious as the complete locomotive is usually spread across a number of listings and it's not hard to see what's going on. I have to believe the majority of buyer are collectors and would certainly have the ability to reassemble, yet have no interest in doing so. Anyone else who is not a collector will probably just leave the listing alone. Hopefully they would be looking for something to run and not restore. Dom On Monday, October 27, 2014 8:20 PM, "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   While I feel that these sellers who “part out” perfectly good locos or whatever ought to be treated like horse thieves in the old west and strung up from the nearest tree. Of course stringing up from the nearest HO tree ain’t gonna be that big a deal but you gets my drift.   Those who separate their tender behinds should be forced to ride forever on the MTA along with good ol’ Charlie.   As dastardly as these actions are there is really no way to stop the bastards from doing it, either by eBay rules, federal ,state or local regulations of by common decency. Just start sending them messages that you refuse to buy from them and you advise all your friends to do the same. May help or may not but you gets your ire out by sending the message.   Can’t test it? Ever look on eBay Motors and see how many sellers list vehicles, some for rather high numbers and then have in the listing “Haven’t tried to start it?” I mean what idiots.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 1:27 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay     Personally I don't buy from these people and I think eBay should take action to prevent the locomotive and tender from being sold separately but I don't think that is ever going to happen and I think the only way to stop the practice is not to buy from those that do it.   Rob McLear. Aussie

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23329	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

San Giovanni, Dismantling the locos is irritating.  But, of course, the seller is maximizing his take on the loco.  He isn’t concerned with the value, other than what goes in his pocket. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23330	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/27/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Agreed, Ray, And some other things eBay should not be allowing is:  special requirements, for payment, for buyer’s to be eligible to bid.  With over 900  100% transactions  I resent doing something else to be ‘eligible’. And most infuriating---“We are sorry, this seller ….doesn’t answer any questions (about the product)”.   WHAT!!!! Can you imagine a purveyor not answering any question about his product, before you buy?  I take it as an insult. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23331	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Denis, I do often dismantle engines. Years ago, at first I didn't. I used to take them apart, clean them and the reassemble them in fine working order. By the time I was done, if I included my initial investment, and included the time I had in the purchase, I was averaging less than minimum wage. Let me tell you, nothing saps the fun out of something more than losing money! In addition, it really cut into my family time. I don't have that to spare anymore since my kids are heavily into sports now.  To make it worse... I am selling my trains to pay for my kids hockey lessons.  It pains me however to take a perfect engine and scrap it. The really rare engines, I do not, but your every day average Mantua Pacific or Mikado..? It's off to the chopping block, no matter what the condition, unless it is heavily customized and weathered!  Them I leave whole and often keep.  If I were to just slap things on eBay and not test them, I would lose money there too. I do not sell defective items either unless I group them all together in one heap. Therefore, instead, I part out items much like a junk yard. Most of the parts I supply can not be had in any other way.  I supply parts to people who are looking for individual parts and are not interested in receiving all the rest of the parts... who would have to then deal with the extra parts in some way. If it were not for my methods, I would not be able to have had completed the restorations on the many locomotives that I have had done. Some of which are truly rare and valuable pieces. The flickr photo set links below depict various stages of restoration of some of them: https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157623241574250/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624442816551/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626008528046/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157628365171465/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626581557343/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157628436936871/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   In many ways, I believe I brought these back from obscurity and or final destruction. Sorry if this bothers you, but it is not all based on greed. I just don't have the time to spare for the former.  In the end, it is my collection to, restore, hoard or part out and share as I like.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2014 8:40 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Re: New Sellers on eBay   San Giovanni, Dismantling the locos is irritating.  But, of course, the seller is maximizing his take on the loco.  He isn’t concerned with the value, other than what goes in his pocket. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23332	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Hi "Those who separate their tender behinds should be forced to ride forever on the MTA along with good ol’ Charlie"? Sorry - can someone explain this ref?   "Just start sending them messages that you refuse to buy from them and you advise all your friends to do the same". Have done so several times in the past,  and to the seller flagged up recently with loads for sale. I said that by separating the locos from the tenders I had no idea what should go with which and so would not bid on any of them. RogerW _,_._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23333	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Kingston Trio Ca.1962; "Charlie and the MTA" (I think).  Should be very easy to find on-line, it's a true folk-pop classic.           Fred Holladay   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 16:13:46 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay    Hi "Those who separate their tender behinds should be forced to ride forever on the MTA along with good ol’ Charlie"? Sorry - can someone explain this ref?   "Just start sending them messages that you refuse to buy from them and you advise all your friends to do the same". Have done so several times in the past,  and to the seller flagged up recently with loads for sale. I said that by separating the locos from the tenders I had no idea what should go with which and so would not bid on any of them. RogerW _,_._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23334	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

This is in reference to a folk song written in 1949, but is best known from the recording in 1959 by a popular group know as :"The Kingston Trio."  The title of the song is just "M.T.A." but it's much better known as "Charlie on the M.T.A."  Seems this guy named Charlie boarded Boston's M.T.A. Subway at Kendall Square Station and handed in his dime.  He was looking to transfer to Jamaica Plain.  When he got there, the conductor asked him for one more nickel -- which Charlie didn't have -- and the conductor wouldn't allow him off the train unless he paid -- which he couldn't.  So it appears he was riding the M.T.A. forever; his wife would hand him a sandwich every day, through the open window, as he passed Sculley Square Station.  He's the man who never returned.  It's a protest song about raising the fares.  Just do a Google search for the lyrics of "Charlie on the M.T.A." and you'll read all about it.  Just reading it though, doesn't do it justice.  You really have to listen to the song to get the most out of it.      Ray W.     In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:37:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:    Hi "Those who separate their tender behinds should be forced to ride forever on the MTA along with good ol’ Charlie"? Sorry - can someone explain this ref? "Just start sending them messages that you refuse to buy from them and you advise all your friends to do the same". Have done so several times in the past,  and to the seller flagged up recently with loads for sale. I said that by separating the locos from the tenders I had no idea what should go with which and so would not bid on any of them. RogerW _,_._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23335	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Quickest way is to go to youtube.com and search for “mta Kingston trio”.   Or use the link below.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP1bvY7IqZY   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:06 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay               Kingston Trio Ca.1962; "Charlie and the MTA" (I think).  Should be very easy to find on-line, it's a true folk-pop classic.           Fred Holladay   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 16:13:46 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay    Hi "Those who separate their tender behinds should be forced to ride forever on the MTA along with good ol’ Charlie"? Sorry - can someone explain this ref?   "Just start sending them messages that you refuse to buy from them and you advise all your friends to do the same". Have done so several times in the past,  and to the seller flagged up recently with loads for sale. I said that by separating the locos from the tenders I had no idea what should go with which and so would not bid on any of them. RogerW       _,_._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23336	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

On 29/10/14 5:13, Roger Whiffin roger48_gb@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > Have done so several times in the past, and to the seller flagged up > recently with loads for sale.I said that by separating the locos from > the tenders I had no idea what should go with which and so would not > bid on any of them. RogerW Then there was the English widow who was sorting all her late husband's valuable Hornby O-gauge collection. When someone asked her where all the tenders were, shed said she had thrown them in the trash - 'Who would want those old coal cars?' -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23337	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

On 29/10/14 11:30, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > This is in reference to a folk song written in 1949, but is best known > from the recording in 1959 by a popular group know as :"The Kingston Trio." > The title of the song is just "M.T.A." but it's much better known as > "Charlie on the M.T.A." Seems this guy named Charlie boarded Boston's M.T.A. > Subway at Kendall Square Station and handed in his dime. He was looking to > transfer to Jamaica Plain. When he got there, the conductor asked him for one > more nickel -- which Charlie didn't have -- and the conductor wouldn't > allow him off the train unless he paid -- which he couldn't. So it appears he > was riding the M.T.A. forever; his wife would hand him a sandwich every > day, through the open window, as he passed Sculley Square Station. He's the > man who never returned. It's a protest song about raising the fares. Just > do a Google search for the lyrics of "Charlie on the M.T.A." and you'll > read all about it. Just reading it though, doesn't do it justice. You > really have to listen to the song to get the most out of it. > > Ray W. Try Amazon.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23338	From: John Hagen	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Yikes!   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 5:50 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay     On 29/10/14 5:13, Roger Whiffin roger48_gb@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > Have done so several times in the past, and to the seller flagged up > recently with loads for sale.I said that by separating the locos from > the tenders I had no idea what should go with which and so would not > bid on any of them. RogerW Then there was the English widow who was sorting all her late husband's valuable Hornby O-gauge collection. When someone asked her where all the tenders were, shed said she had thrown them in the trash - 'Who would want those old coal cars?' -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23339	From: dwaite2000	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA

Legend lives on...MBTA (now) passes are called Chalie Cards.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23340	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Hi All, This was a political song of a person running for office in Boston that opposed the MTA's fare increase. By the way I have ridden the MTA through Sculley Square many times, both on a MTA subway car and by foot. It was the shortest way between South Station and North Station. The subway took too long. Joel Holmes > This is in reference to a folk song written in 1949, but is best known > from the recording in 1959 by a popular group know as :"The Kingston > Trio." > The title of the song is just "M.T.A." but it's much better known as > "Charlie on the M.T.A." Seems this guy named Charlie boarded Boston's > M.T.A. > Subway at Kendall Square Station and handed in his dime. He was looking > to > transfer to Jamaica Plain. When he got there, the conductor asked him > for one > more nickel -- which Charlie didn't have -- and the conductor wouldn't > allow him off the train unless he paid -- which he couldn't. So it > appears he > was riding the M.T.A. forever; his wife would hand him a sandwich every > day, through the open window, as he passed Sculley Square Station. He's > the > man who never returned. It's a protest song about raising the fares. > Just > do a Google search for the lyrics of "Charlie on the M.T.A." and you'll > read all about it. Just reading it though, doesn't do it justice. You > really have to listen to the song to get the most out of it. > > Ray W. > > > > In a message dated 10/28/2014 4:37:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > "Those who separate their tender behinds should be forced to ride forever > on the MTA along with good ol’ Charlie"? > Sorry - can someone explain this ref? > > > > "Just start sending them messages that you refuse to buy from them and > you > advise all your friends to do the same". > > > > Have done so several times in the past, and to the seller flagged up > recently with loads for sale. > I said that by separating the locos from the tenders I had no idea what > should go with which and so would not bid on any of them. > > > RogerW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _,_._,___ > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23341	From: Russ Shiel	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA

For the other oldies: The Kingston Trio - "M.T.A."               The Kingston Trio - "M.T.A." View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo    Peripherally trains, right? But that started my lifelong ambition to be a banjo player, fortunately never realized!! Cheers, Russ On Wednesday, 29 October 2014, 10:19, "acace@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Legend lives on...MBTA (now) passes are called Chalie Cards.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23342	From: rick flaherty	Date: 10/28/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA

Attachments : Bugs P-38[103].png I have modern banjos and one from the 1880s to 1910s (Lyon and Healey 5 string-weighs about two feathers) and whenever I pick one up, God kills a kitten. So sad… Rick "The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." Albert Einstein From: "Russ Shiel rshiel01@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 8:32 PM To: "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [vintageHO] re: Charlie On The MTA   For the other oldies: The Kingston Trio - "M.T.A."               The Kingston Trio - "M.T.A." View on www.youtube.com Preview by Yahoo    Peripherally trains, right? But that started my lifelong ambition to be a banjo player, fortunately never realized!! Cheers, Russ On Wednesday, 29 October 2014, 10:19, "acace@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Legend lives on...MBTA (now) passes are called Chalie Cards.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23343	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay (MTA song query)

Hi - ok thanks - I have heard it before but did not know the correct title - just know the refrain "He'll never return". RogerW From: "Fred Holladay fvh2@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 28 October 2014, 22:06 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay             Kingston Trio Ca.1962; "Charlie and the MTA" (I think).  Should be very easy to find on-line, it's a true folk-pop classic.           Fred Holladay   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 16:13:46 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay    Hi "Those who separate their tender behinds should be forced to ride forever on the MTA along with good ol’ Charlie"? Sorry - can someone explain this ref?   "Just start sending them messages that you refuse to buy from them and you advise all your friends to do the same". Have done so several times in the past,  and to the seller flagged up recently with loads for sale. I said that by separating the locos from the tenders I had no idea what should go with which and so would not bid on any of them. RogerW _,_._,___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23344	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay (MTA song query)

Last words on this - now knowing the correct title I have found a number of .mp3 downloads of this. Incidentally - I am sure that I heard a British version of this when very young on a radio programme "The Billy Cotton Band Show", the station was one on the London underground and I think the ticket collector wanted an extra threepence or sixpence. thanks to all RogerW _,_._,___ ___

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23345	From: Dale Weaver	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Unsubscribe

Hi Don,   Thank you for letting me be a member of your group.  Even though it was short-lived, I enjoyed the passion the folks here all have for this hobby.   As I mentioned when I joined, this was in an attempt to see if anyone was interested in the two sets that I inherited from my Dad (one of which belonged to my little brother, who died years ago when he was 17).  No one was interested in the things I had, so I “traded” them to my wife’s uncle – a huge train fan who even has old train schedules – in exchange for some help rebuilding a staircase.  He is delighted to have it all and plans to install it in his attic, and I am very pleased he will be able to enjoy it.   Thanks again and best wishes to you all.   Sincerely,   Dale

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23346	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay (MTA song query)

On 29/10/14 11:40, Roger Whiffin roger48_gb@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Hi - ok thanks - I have heard it before but did not know the correct title - just know the refrain "He'll never return".RogerW > From: "Fred Holladay fvh2@... [vintageHO]"<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, 28 October 2014, 22:06 > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] New Sellers on eBay > > Kingston Trio Ca.1962; "Charlie and the MTA" (I think). Should be very easy to find on-line, it's a true folk-pop classic. > Fred Holladay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP1bvY7IqZY -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23347	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA

Hey Rick, Not too long ago I sold my wife’s MANDOLA.  This had been sold by a dealer in Oregon in 1907.  It had the original sale tag, case, etc. The man who bought it was thrilled to get it. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23348	From: Denis Long	Date: 10/29/2014
Subject: Re: Charlie On The MTA

Rick, I meant to also mention that that saying attributed to Albert is outstanding. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23349	From: jodanjackkayla	Date: 10/30/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay

Gentlemen, I have to disagree with your opinion.  One of the few times I agree with Sean.   First, they are our trains, we can sell them as we like.  If you don't like it, don't bid. Second, go on the Bowser site and see what they are asking for their parts.  110 bucks for a Rivarossi GG1 motor!  Now that is hi-way robbery.  The market will bear what the market will bear. Third, whether you like it or not, we are providing a service, people would not bid them up to crazy numbers if they did not need the parts.   Fourth, maybe what we take apart and dismantle makes 5-10 locomotives complete.  What is that worth to people who have been looking for that one part to make their loco that their dad gave them as a child complete? Along the lines of what Sean said, how many of you would pick up a Big Boy in a lot you bought, spend the money for the parts to make it whole and sell it for 200 bucks when you can strip it and list it and make 300-400 on the parts?  No insult intended, but you would be a complete idiot to do that. Like Sean said, real rare stuff, we are not parting out.  I would never take apart an American Flyer Frontiersman for parts.  Common stuff gets stripped and listed and guys are grateful.  If they were not they would not buy it.  And you know what, I have had numerous people message me and tell me thanks so much for selling the parts they needed to restore an old locomotive that their dad gave them when they were a child.  Can't put a value on that, can you? Anyway, I agree to disagree.  And you know Ebay is not going to stop that.  They make more money that way.  Being the whores they are, all they hear is the sound of the cash register in listing and final value fees.  If you need parts, thare3trains on Ebay, glad to help you out.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23350	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay - now Overseas Shipping Rant

On 31/10/14 14:59, jodanjackkayla@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Gentlemen, I have to disagree with your opinion. One of the few > times I agree with Sean. First, they are our trains, we can sell them > as we like. And you > know Ebay is not going to stop that. They make more money that way. > Being the whores they are, all they hear is the sound of the cash > register in listing and final value fees. Also - foreign buyers beware. Epay are insisting on overseas buyers (like myself) now pay shipping at their 'calculated' rates, which are about three times what USPS charges. And even they are now damned expensive. Where does the money go? You can bet it's not to the seller, or even USPS.. Can you guess?? I had a problem with this just last week, but got around it - see below. For those of you who are buying from outside the US and A, the answer is to arrange a friend or fellow modeller in the states to take delivery for you, bulk pack your purchases into a USPS Standard Box, and on-ship at normal rates. I do this. Also we in NZ have a drop-shipping service arranged by NZ Post - they will take delivery to their warehouse in Oregon, and on-ship to us at normal rates, They no longer combine packing, but do give a discount of $6 per parcel on multiple shipping. I also use them. I have two parcels to pay for tomorrow (on the first of November), to appease my credit card company.. [I'm not writing this, and you didn't read it here, but there is also a way to minimise customs charges here - if the seller or your friend doesn't include invoices, packing slips or anything with a value on it, in a parcel sent to Oregon, the on-shipping service will ask you to provide a value. Purchases under a remittance value of NZ$400 do not attract customs charges. No further comment..] -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23351	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay - now Overseas Shipping Rant

Dear Doug and all, The Caribbean islands, including Anguilla, where I live, employ similar mail and parcel forwarding services. We have one that shops by sea, another that ships by air. Simplifies dealing with sellers that will not ship outside the US of A too. On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 3:47 AM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 31/10/14 14:59, jodanjackkayla@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Gentlemen, I have to disagree with your opinion. One of the few > times I agree with Sean. First, they are our trains, we can sell them > as we like. And you > know Ebay is not going to stop that. They make more money that way. > Being the whores they are, all they hear is the sound of the cash > register in listing and final value fees. Also - foreign buyers beware. Epay are insisting on overseas buyers (like myself) now pay shipping at their 'calculated' rates, which are about three times what USPS charges. And even they are now damned expensive. Where does the money go? You can bet it's not to the seller, or even USPS.. Can you guess?? I had a problem with this just last week, but got around it - see below. For those of you who are buying from outside the US and A, the answer is to arrange a friend or fellow modeller in the states to take delivery for you, bulk pack your purchases into a USPS Standard Box, and on-ship at normal rates. I do this. Also we in NZ have a drop-shipping service arranged by NZ Post - they will take delivery to their warehouse in Oregon, and on-ship to us at normal rates, They no longer combine packing, but do give a discount of $6 per parcel on multiple shipping. I also use them. I have two parcels to pay for tomorrow (on the first of November), to appease my credit card company.. [I'm not writing this, and you didn't read it here, but there is also a way to minimise customs charges here - if the seller or your friend doesn't include invoices, packing slips or anything with a value on it, in a parcel sent to Oregon, the on-shipping service will ask you to provide a value. Purchases under a remittance value of NZ$400 do not attract customs charges. No further comment..] -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23352	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay - now Overseas Shipping Rant

On 01/11/14 3:01, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Dear Doug and all, > > The Caribbean islands, including Anguilla, where I live, employ similar > mail and parcel forwarding services. We have one that shops by sea, another > that ships by air. Simplifies dealing with sellers that will not ship > outside the US of A too. Hi Walter. Getting OT here, but I'll cut it short - can you tell me (off group) how this one works, please. My understanding is that Anguilla is a British overseas territory, thus must be outside US jurisdiction. Royal Mail is now incredibly expensive, too.. The other thought is that all mail now goes by air - maybe some at a lower priority.. Sea mail could take 3 months or more for delivery. Cheers.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23353	From: Doug Harris	Date: 10/31/2014
Subject: Re: New Sellers on eBay - now Overseas Shipping Rant

On 01/11/14 12:53, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote: > On 01/11/14 3:01, Walter Bayer II bayerw2@... [vintageHO] wrote: >> Dear Doug and all, >> >> The Caribbean islands, including Anguilla, where I live, employ similar >> mail and parcel forwarding services. We have one that shops by sea, another >> that ships by air. Simplifies dealing with sellers that will not ship >> outside the US of A too. > > Hi Walter. > > Getting OT here, but I'll cut it short - can you tell me (off group) how > this one works, please. > > My understanding is that Anguilla is a British overseas territory, thus OOPS! Maybe a link or links, too?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23354	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Today's vintage finds

Attachments : IMG_1517 - FDEX and Gulf.jpg At a show today (unusually held on a Saturday), among other things, I picked up a pair of vintage freight cars equipped with Mantua couplers: a Gulf tank car, by Mantua, and a wood and metal Fruit Growers Express double deck ventilator and refrigerator car (FDEX 9847), maker unknown to me. The latter has a little damage and a hand-lettered repair to the paint job that is less than ideal on one side, but if need be I can conceal it eventually. The most interesting aspect to me -- something I'd never seen before -- was that the stirrup steps at the corners were attached to the wood floor via screws through tabs. Does that sound familiar to anyone? Harry Butler

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23355	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/1/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]

Harry,   I would have to check, but your Fruit Growers reefer seems vaguely reminiscent of IMP (International Model Products).  Athearn used the FDEX reporting marks, but they were numbered in the 9200 series.  Globe used FGEX and used 5-digit road numbers.  I won't be available to check until tomorrow (Sunday) evening though.    Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 11/1/2014 10:49:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   At a show today (unusually held on a Saturday), among other things, I picked up a pair of vintage freight cars equipped with Mantua couplers: a Gulf tank car, by Mantua, and a wood and metal Fruit Growers Express double deck ventilator and refrigerator car (FDEX 9847), maker unknown to me. The latter has a little damage and a hand-lettered repair to the paint job that is less than ideal on one side, but if need be I can conceal it eventually. The most interesting aspect to me -- something I'd never seen before -- was that the stirrup steps at the corners were attached to the wood floor via screws through tabs. Does that sound familiar to anyone? Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23356	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds

On 11/1/2014 11:03 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Harry,   I would have to check, but your Fruit Growers reefer seems vaguely reminiscent of IMP (International Model Products).  Athearn used the FDEX reporting marks, but they were numbered in the 9200 series.  Globe used FGEX and used 5-digit road numbers.  I won't be available to check until tomorrow (Sunday) evening though.    Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 11/1/2014 10:49:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   At a show today (unusually held on a Saturday), among other things, I picked up a pair of vintage freight cars equipped with Mantua couplers: a Gulf tank car, by Mantua, and a wood and metal Fruit Growers Express double deck ventilator and refrigerator car (FDEX 9847), maker unknown to me. The latter has a little damage and a hand-lettered repair to the paint job that is less than ideal on one side, but if need be I can conceal it eventually. The most interesting aspect to me -- something I'd never seen before -- was that the stirrup steps at the corners were attached to the wood floor via screws through tabs. Does that sound familiar to anyone? Harry Butler Just looking at the side view and not being able to see the underbody, it suggests Varney to me. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23357	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]

Attachments : IMG_1524-B-end-FDEX.jpg IMG_1520-FDEX bottom.jpg Thanks, guys. I took a couple photos of the underbody, which I've attached, in case they prove helpful. One is of the whole underbody, and one a look at the B end. The bottom bracket for the brake staff is screwed to the underframe via a tab as well, together with the tabbed stirrup step. Harry Butler

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23358	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds

Harry-   The reefer looks to be a Mantua also.  The floor is sheet metal normally, the builder may have substituted wood.  In the photos it does look like metal though.    Richard Dipping     -----Original Message----- From: Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Nov 2, 2014 3:51 am Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's vintage finds On 11/1/2014 11:03 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Harry,   I would have to check, but your Fruit Growers reefer seems vaguely reminiscent of IMP (International Model Products).  Athearn used the FDEX reporting marks, but they were numbered in the 9200 series.  Globe used FGEX and used 5-digit road numbers.  I won't be available to check until tomorrow (Sunday) evening though.    Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 11/1/2014 10:49:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   At a show today (unusually held on a Saturday), among other things, I picked up a pair of vintage freight cars equipped with Mantua couplers: a Gulf tank car, by Mantua, and a wood and metal Fruit Growers Express double deck ventilator and refrigerator car (FDEX 9847), maker unknown to me. The latter has a little damage and a hand-lettered repair to the paint job that is less than ideal on one side, but if need be I can conceal it eventually. The most interesting aspect to me -- something I'd never seen before -- was that the stirrup steps at the corners were attached to the wood floor via screws through tabs. Does that sound familiar to anyone? Harry Butler Just looking at the side view and not being able to see the underbody, it suggests Varney to me. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23359	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds

On 11/2/2014 12:25 PM, Richard Dipping richarddipping@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Harry-   The reefer looks to be a Mantua also.  The floor is sheet metal normally, the builder may have substituted wood.  In the photos it does look like metal though.    Richard Dipping     -----Original Message----- From: Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Nov 2, 2014 3:51 am Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's vintage finds On 11/1/2014 11:03 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Harry,   I would have to check, but your Fruit Growers reefer seems vaguely reminiscent of IMP (International Model Products).  Athearn used the FDEX reporting marks, but they were numbered in the 9200 series.  Globe used FGEX and used 5-digit road numbers.  I won't be available to check until tomorrow (Sunday) evening though.    Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 11/1/2014 10:49:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   At a show today (unusually held on a Saturday), among other things, I picked up a pair of vintage freight cars equipped with Mantua couplers: a Gulf tank car, by Mantua, and a wood and metal Fruit Growers Express double deck ventilator and refrigerator car (FDEX 9847), maker unknown to me. The latter has a little damage and a hand-lettered repair to the paint job that is less than ideal on one side, but if need be I can conceal it eventually. The most interesting aspect to me -- something I'd never seen before -- was that the stirrup steps at the corners were attached to the wood floor via screws through tabs. Does that sound familiar to anyone? Harry Butler Just looking at the side view and not being able to see the underbody, it suggests Varney to me. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ What are the sides Mantua in the earliest days had a plain brass side with a paper overlay glued on. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23360	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]

Checking again, the floor does seem to be sheet metal with a piece forming the side sill folded down on each side; the sides seem to be cardstock. Thanks for the help! Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23361	From: Richard Dipping	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds

Harry:   Then I would say that's definitely a Mantua. The diecast ice hatches and roofwalk, as well as the stamped sheet metal lower brake staff bracket cinch it in my opinion.  A quality scan of a good side could be used to replace the damaged one.  I can look in my stash for a Manuta FGE printed car side. These kits were called all-metal, and were-except for the printed thin card sides.   Richard Dipping     -----Original Message----- From: hbutlerlists@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Nov 2, 2014 12:49 pm Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Today's vintage finds Checking again, the floor does seem to be sheet metal with a piece forming the side sill folded down on each side; the sides seem to be cardstock. Thanks for the help! Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23362	From: Garry Spear	Date: 11/2/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [2 Attachments]

This is a picture of an early Mantua box or refrigerator car.  I have a few of them. Garry Spear On Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 7:22 AM, hbutlerlists@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from hbutlerlists@... [vintageHO] included below] Thanks, guys. I took a couple photos of the underbody, which I've attached, in case they prove helpful. One is of the whole underbody, and one a look at the B end. The bottom bracket for the brake staff is screwed to the underframe via a tab as well, together with the tabbed stirrup step. Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23363	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/3/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds

Harry,   This is all you had needed to say, as no other H0  manufacturer of a metal car used cardstock sides.  Your mention of the stirrup steps at the corners being attached to the floor (wood, metal or any other material) via screwS through tabs threw me off, as this sound to me like these steps used more that one screw to attach them, instead of each step using only one screw.  I was picturing steps with each one being attached by a small screw at each end of the stirrup, which I believe one manufacturer used.  The wood floor may have originally threw some members off too.  So, as has been since I.D.'d, this is a Mantua metal reefer, which also uses a step/stirrup under each door (you should have 6 steps in all).  I don't believe any other manufacturer used steps under the reefer doors, as would be more prototypical for these cars.        Ray W.     In a message dated 11/2/2014 1:49:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Checking again, the floor does seem to be sheet metal with a piece forming the side sill folded down on each side; the sides seem to be cardstock. Thanks for the help! Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23364	From: Denny Anspach	Date: 11/3/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]

The car looks like a Mantua to me, metal with paper overlaid sides. The coupler mount and coupler seem to be too well engineered and fitted together to be much of anything else. Denny   Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23365	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 11/3/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds

Thanks to you all for the information -- I'll be in good shape to recognize these in the future. Ray, it does have the steps under the reefer doors in the center. And Richard, thanks for the tip on a scanned side perhaps facilitating a repair. I may try scanning the good side at some point to try that out. Harry B.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23366	From: Dave Robison	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment]

I'm pretty new to this, so maybe the experts will have different opinions, but your Fruit Growers Express reefer looks to me like it's also by Mantua. All six steps and the brake wheel shaft holder tab are typical of the early Mantua construction, as is the rest of the car as far as I can see. If it is by Mantua, though, there's no actual wood in it, the floor, sides, and roof are sheet metal, with printed cardstock sides covering the metal sides; the car ends, underframe, roof walk and ice hatch areas are diecast. Does that sound like it? Dave -------------------------------------------- On Sat, 11/1/14, hbutlerlists@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [vintageHO] Today's vintage finds [1 Attachment] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, November 1, 2014, 7:49 PM At a show today (unusually held on a Saturday), among other things, I picked up a pair of vintage freight cars equipped with Mantua couplers: a Gulf tank car, by Mantua, and a wood and metal Fruit Growers Express double deck ventilator and refrigerator car (FDEX 9847), maker unknown to me. The latter has a little damage and a hand-lettered repair to the paint job that is less than ideal on one side, but if need be I can conceal it eventually. The most interesting aspect to me -- something I'd never seen before -- was that the stirrup steps at the corners were attached to the wood floor via screws through tabs. Does that sound familiar to anyone? Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23367	From: corlissbs	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Athearn Scene

Does anybody have a good scan of the Athearn box scene of the Boston & Maine, Pacific steam loco in the snow scene that they would be willing to share with me?  The painting is in B&W in both guide books and I would love to have a color print.  If my memory serves me right, I believe some passenger cars had this cover art.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23368	From: Carl Neste	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Scene

Brad, send me your email address and I'll send you the requested boxtop pix. Carl Neste On 11/12/2014 9:43 AM, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Does anybody have a good scan of the Athearn box scene of the Boston & Maine, Pacific steam loco in the snow scene that they would be willing to share with me?  The painting is in B&W in both guide books and I would love to have a color print.  If my memory serves me right, I believe some passenger cars had this cover art.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23369	From: corlissbs	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Athearn Scene

Thank you, Carl.  It is hotairbrad@... Brad

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23370	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/12/2014
Subject: Re: Rivarossi FNM Electric railcar and trailer circa 1950

On 28/09/14 18:33, the_plainsman@... [vintageHO] wrote: > HO Doug H., Virginian is one > of my few other favorites, though besides just about every book > published on the road only, have one of their EL-1 single unit > electric box cab locos, a chance spur of the moment train show > bargain. W. Jay W. Hi Jay. Just found you email again.. Had another EL-3A single unit arrive a couple of days back. Mint, unrun. Runs fine on the test bench, but a little noisy. It will be full serviced before running. The painted. And weathered. Not skiting, mind you.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23371	From: Graeme	Date: 11/16/2014
Subject: Hawk Model Company

Pre war, there was a Hawk Model Company in Chicago, Illinois, who made 00 and 0 scale kits for reefers etc. That Hawk Model Company may have had a connection with Champion Model Co/Max Gray. There was also a Hawk Model Company in Rockford, Illinois, who made various plastic aircraft kits, plastic San Francisco cable car kits in 1/4 inch scale, Weird-Ohs, and became part of Testors in 1969. Question. Are the two Hawk Model Companies both the same company, who happened to move from Chicago to Rockford sometime after 1939, or are they entirely separate organisations? I suspect separate, as the Chicago company was using wood, but the Rockford company claims to be the USA's earliest model company, and to have produced the first plastic kit. Anyone know? -- Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23372	From: Stephen Neubaum	Date: 11/16/2014
Subject: Re: Hawk Model Company

All, A friend of mine who owns the local hobby shop once told me that there is a connection between the two, but I don't remember how he explained it. I think it was a move and some kind of reorganization. I'll try to remember to ask him tomorrow. I have a few Hawk OO cars. A single door woodside boxcar became a double door automobile boxcar and fits in with my MDC and Walthers woodside auto boxes when it got HO trucks and couplers. Thanks -Steve From: "Graeme yahoo@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2014 12:57 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Hawk Model Company   Pre war, there was a Hawk Model Company in Chicago, Illinois, who made 00 and 0 scale kits for reefers etc. That Hawk Model Company may have had a connection with Champion Model Co/Max Gray. There was also a Hawk Model Company in Rockford, Illinois, who made various plastic aircraft kits, plastic San Francisco cable car kits in 1/4 inch scale, Weird-Ohs, and became part of Testors in 1969. Question. Are the two Hawk Model Companies both the same company, who happened to move from Chicago to Rockford sometime after 1939, or are they entirely separate organisations? I suspect separate, as the Chicago company was using wood, but the Rockford company claims to be the USA's earliest model company, and to have produced the first plastic kit. Anyone know? -- Graeme, Scotland

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23373	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/17/2014
Subject: drive belt size?

I'm wondering.......... What size are the drive belts on the Athearn HiFi drives? While I have some, I don't think I measure them properly and wish to use o-ring type of drive belts instead of rubber bands. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23374	From: Denis Long	Date: 11/17/2014
Subject: Re: Hawk Model Company

I’m very much taken with the follow-on gibberish to comments.  It adds so much to the discussion.  It does, however flesh out the site and makes it look more important. I have read this stuff, I think it’s coded, classified information. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23375	From: Graeme	Date: 11/17/2014
Subject: Re: Hawk Model Company

In message <000001d002b4$b54b1570$1fe14050$@...>, "'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> writes >I'm very much taken with the follow-on gibberish to comments. It adds so >much to the discussion. It does, however flesh out the site and makes it >look more important. > >I have read this stuff, I think it's coded, classified information. I think it is secret messages from the Dark Net. Actually, I think it only happens when people post using HTML. Possibly. -- Graeme, tin hat in place

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23376	From: ocalicreek	Date: 11/18/2014
Subject: Silver Streak Underframe?

Group, I have recently purchased what I believe to be a Silver Streak Wabash Double Sheathed box car.  I found it at a train show in really rough condition and will probably re-kit the car and rebuild it at some point.  But for now I am doing research to discover just exactly what it is I have bought.  My best guess is a Silver Streak car.  It has Micro-Motive trucks with the rubber inserts, and I see from my MR collection that Silver Streak offered a Wabash DS boxcar in '46, and at that time were offering their kits with Micro-Motive trucks. The question comes in when I look at the underframe.  There appears to be no provision for the two cross-braces that would come with a Silver Streak metal underframe.  Instead, it is a two-piece simple fishbelly underframe typical of DS boxcars, with gaps cut for the brake line and levers.  The diagrams at HOSeeker all show cross-pieces meant to fit together with the longitudinal fishbelly pieces. Is this an early Silver Streak car?  Or have I got something else?  Could it be the builder simply left off the cross braces?  I can post pictures if need be, otherwise, I'll let the description suffice for now. Thanks for any help y'all can provide. Galen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23377	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/18/2014
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Underframe?

An easy way to distinguish a freight car of unknown origin from other manufacturers is to just go by the roadnumber.   With a few exceptions, most manufacturers used roadnumbers specific only to them for most roadnames.  Several years ago, I wrote out a complete listing of Silver Streak cars, with their roadnumbers; it will be found in the V files as spreadsheets.  For that matter, there are numerous other manufacturers' listings I wrote up, that can be found in the files.  They're easy to make use of to identify many cars you're unfamiliar with.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 11/18/2014 8:36:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Group, I have recently purchased what I believe to be a Silver Streak Wabash Double Sheathed box car.  I found it at a train show in really rough condition and will probably re-kit the car and rebuild it at some point.  But for now I am doing research to discover just exactly what it is I have bought.  My best guess is a Silver Streak car.  It has Micro-Motive trucks with the rubber inserts, and I see from my MR collection that Silver Streak offered a Wabash DS boxcar in '46, and at that time were offering their kits with Micro-Motive trucks. The question comes in when I look at the underframe.  There appears to be no provision for the two cross-braces that would come with a Silver Streak metal underframe.  Instead, it is a two-piece simple fishbelly underframe typical of DS boxcars, with gaps cut for the brake line and levers.  The diagrams at HOSeeker all show cross-pieces meant to fit together with the longitudinal fishbelly pieces. Is this an early Silver Streak car?  Or have I got something else?  Could it be the builder simply left off the cross braces?  I can post pictures if need be, otherwise, I'll let the description suffice for now. Thanks for any help y'all can provide. Galen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23378	From: cwrailman	Date: 11/19/2014
Subject: Not Another $5 Motor

At the risk of being called blasphemous check out our 11/18/2014 Blog titled “Not Another $5 Motor” for information on a 15mm x 20mm x 28mm dual shaft 5,400 rpm dual shaft motor currently available from an Ebay seller.  Check out the brief video showing one of these motors strapped down onto our test mule and shown in operation at various voltages. On our Projects page we demonstrated remotoring of the Mantua General, a Bachman 4-4-0 and a Rivarossi 4-4-0 using a 15mm x 20mm x 25mm Nichibo motor.  The motors discussed in this blog may also be suitable for such remotoring projects. Denny Janitor in Training CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops WEB site: http://www.cwrailman.com/ Facebook: CWRailman  CWRailman Check out CWRailman, Adventures in Model Railroading. The home of the California Western Loco and... View on www.facebook.com Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23379	From: ocalicreek	Date: 11/19/2014
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Underframe?

Thanks, Ray!  Yep, #78943 is indeed listed as a Wabash Double Sheathed Box car. I'd still love to know more about why this car doesn't have the cross beams in the underframe.  But at least I have a good starting place.  Or perhaps my car is only mostly Silver Streak and has a different underframe grafted on? It may be a while before I get to re-kitting and rebuilding this car, but step by step the mystery is solved. Next...a B A P box car.... Galen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23380	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/19/2014
Subject: Re: Silver Streak Underframe?

Galen,   Might be just something as simple as the modeler who built this car wanted to get it on his layout ASAP and so decided to skip this step since undercarriage detail wouldn't be seen (or missed) that easily.  Modelers all too often skipped major steps in constructing these early models.  I've seen all too many Globe metal cars -- those that came before the roof and ends were factory painted -- completely assembled without first painting these bare brass parts.  Once assembled, it makes it so much harder (next to impossible) to apply the needed paint as the doors and door rails are left unpainted too, unless the modeler resorts to a brush.  Not all modelers plan ahead, nor follow the directions.   Those who buy these same built up cars on eBay or at shows now need to disassemble the cars to spray paint the parts that should have been painted in the beginning.  One problem here is that the ends of the door guides don't always take to unbending and re-bending again; they may break at the bends from metal fatigue.  The small replacement parts are not always easily found.    Ray Wetzel .     In a message dated 11/19/2014 10:12:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Thanks, Ray!  Yep, #78943 is indeed listed as a Wabash Double Sheathed Box car. I'd still love to know more about why this car doesn't have the cross beams in the underframe.  But at least I have a good starting place.  Or perhaps my car is only mostly Silver Streak and has a different underframe grafted on? It may be a while before I get to re-kitting and rebuilding this car, but step by step the mystery is solved. Next...a B A P box car.... Galen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23381	From: bvasilion@ameritech.net	Date: 11/20/2014
Subject: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi has anyone used or is using NJ International and tensodo (sp) switch machines??? I had bought about 15 on eBay, plus the ones that were attached to the Tru Scale Track Switches I own... What is your opinion of these switch motors?? thanks bill Vasilion

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23382	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/20/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

On 11/20/2014 8:20 PM, bvasilion@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Hi has anyone used or is using NJ International and tensodo (sp) switch machines??? I had bought about 15 on eBay, plus the ones that were attached to the Tru Scale Track Switches I own... What is your opinion of these switch motors?? thanks bill Vasilion If you want a snap action machine, the only ones better are the Kemtron or Precision scale X100, and the only reason they're better is more auxiliary contacts. I've used plenty of NJ's over the years, never had a problem, I've got Tenshodo's working still that have been in service over 50 years.. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23383	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi Bill, At one time, I used them both, as well as Kemtron, pretty much exclusively.  While they are ok, they are still mechanically touchy and require a bit of effort to make them work properly  I also used Rix products mounts for a few of them.  It helped, but even they require a bit of fiddling.  The really bad part is the contacts.  I do like the fact that they have contacts.   The Tenshodos only have one set of contacts, so I had to augment them with micro switches. (you ought to see my three way turnout in my staging area!) When I made big changes to the old layout and added a lot more real estate, I invested in Tortoises and never looked back.  I still have some of those dual coil switch machines in use, but some may end up getting replaced with Tortoises if/when they start acting up. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 18:20:00 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines   Hi has anyone used or is using NJ International and tensodo (sp) switch machines??? I had bought about 15 on eBay, plus the ones that were attached to the Tru Scale Track Switches I own... What is your opinion of these switch motors?? thanks bill Vasilion

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23384	From: Michael Greene	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Used these types of machines almost exclusively in the 60’s. A few points to remember. 1. You will almost certainly want to use a capacitor discharge type power supply for reliable operation. 2. Use a generous “Z” bend in the linkage to absorb the shock and travel mismatch so the mechanism snaps over center. 3. I started using Loctite in all the screws as machines with high usage rate (i.e., clubs) tended to rattle themselves apart (always at the most in-opportune moment — guests, show, etc.) 4. Although I have seen stall motor machines overpower turnouts, I think the snap action type beat on the points more. Make sure your stock rails are firmly secured and the point assembly is robust. Hope this helps… Michael Michael Greene prrk4@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23385	From: Fred Holladay	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

I remember a friend having trouble with the solenoid core breaking on one batch of those machines. I don't remember if they were branded Kemtron or Tenshodo, but they had a green painted can.     They saw heavy use on his layout, and were breaking where the armiture (for want of a better word) went from round to flat. This was more than 30 years ago.  Other than that one batch, they were rugged machines.          Fred Holladay   To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2014 23:38:16 -0600 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines   On 11/20/2014 8:20 PM, bvasilion@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Hi has anyone used or is using NJ International and tensodo (sp) switch machines??? I had bought about 15 on eBay, plus the ones that were attached to the Tru Scale Track Switches I own... What is your opinion of these switch motors?? thanks bill Vasilion If you want a snap action machine, the only ones better are the Kemtron or Precision scale X100, and the only reason they're better is more auxiliary contacts. I've used plenty of NJ's over the years, never had a problem, I've got Tenshodo's working still that have been in service over 50 years.. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23386	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Anyone remember ?

Some months ago I was lucky enough to get about 100 Model Trains magazines through eBay. I was just bagging them and noticed the address label on one of them. CENTRAL VALLEY MODEL WORKS 13000 SCACT ICOY ST. NO. HOLLYWOOD, CALIF Is this the Central Valley kits we knew so well ??? This issue is dated Summer 1957. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23387	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 11/21/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?

Wow. Boy do I remember that address. When I was young, (probably 14-ish -- 'cause I became railroad addicted at age 12), my family was in the Van Nuys area visiting from here in Washington, and I must have whined a lot, so they took me to Central Valley itself. And that WAS the address because for some reason I've remembered it all these years since then, (which was about 1956). You're right. It's the same place, same company. Your posting brings back good memories, thank ylu. Dennis Thompson Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state At 08:36 PM 11/21/2014, you wrote: >Some months ago I was lucky enough to get about 100 Model Trains >magazines through eBay. > >I was just bagging them and noticed the address label on one of them. > >CENTRAL VALLEY MODEL WORKS >13000 SCACT ICOY ST. >NO. HOLLYWOOD, CALIF > >Is this the Central Valley kits we knew so well ??? > >This issue is dated Summer 1957. > >Best to ya, >Mike Bauers >Milwaukee, Wi > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23388	From: rhbale8	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?

Yes, that’s the same Central Valley Model Works founded in 1948 by George Hook. Hook died in the mid-1970s and the CV was purchased by Jack Parker who moved the operation to Oceano, CA. Jack passed away in 2010 and CV is now owned and operated by his son Jeff.   When George Hook owned Central Valley it was located in San Fernando Valley at 13000 Saticoy St.,North Hollywood. There was a hot bed of model manufacturers in the immediate neighborhood including Cliff Line, Ulrich, and 410M Paint (Stewart-Lundhal) which had originally been developed by Model Die Casting. Bill Ulrich eventually bought 410M and produced both Ulrich kits and 410M paint out of 11423 Vanown St. North Hollywood.   Soon after WWI, Hook and other ex airplane engineers developed Micro-Motive HO trucks. They were excellent trucks but the marketing plan failed. Later Hook used the same manufacturing and insulation technique for his CV trucks.   Parker was an engineer and toolmaker at Mattel where he helped design practically everything including the Hot Wheels product line. He moved to Revell and designed the tooling for their famous Engine House.     It's fun to look back.   Richard Bale In a message dated 11/21/2014 8:44:12 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Wow. Boy do I remember that address. When I was young, (probably 14-ish -- 'cause I became railroad addicted at age 12), my family was in the Van Nuys area visiting from here in Washington, and I must have whined a lot, so they took me to Central Valley itself. And that WAS the address because for some reason I've remembered it all these years since then, (which was about 1956). You're right. It's the same place, same company. Your posting brings back good memories, thank ylu. Dennis Thompson Odessa/Ritzville, E. WA state At 08:36 PM 11/21/2014, you wrote: >Some months ago I was lucky enough to get about 100 Model Trains >magazines through eBay. > >I was just bagging them and noticed the address label on one of them. > >CENTRAL VALLEY MODEL WORKS >13000 SCACT ICOY ST. >NO. HOLLYWOOD, CALIF > >Is this the Central Valley kits we knew so well ??? > >This issue is dated Summer 1957. > >Best to ya, >Mike Bauers >Milwaukee, Wi > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23389	From: the_plainsman	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?

Mike B., And all – The last time I checked, this was a few years ago, Central Valley still had a few white metal castings available for those who need them to restore an old caboose or freight car. I ordered some as it was fun to be able to get a 50-year-old part from the original manufacturer. The only other instances of older parts being available for such a long period of time that come to mind was and still is Red Ball, owned for more than half of its existence by our member Merle Rice and now having been sold to the owner of LaBelle, which has also been supported during all of its years of operation. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23390	From: Richard White	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?

Hello All- I ordered roof vents from Herkimer/OK a couple of years ago. I believe they've been in business for many years.  Regards- Richard W., in California To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2014 06:38:29 -0800 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Anyone remember ?   Mike B., And all – The last time I checked, this was a few years ago, Central Valley still had a few white metal castings available for those who need them to restore an old caboose or freight car. I ordered some as it was fun to be able to get a 50-year-old part from the original manufacturer. The only other instances of older parts being available for such a long period of time that come to mind was and still is Red Ball, owned for more than half of its existence by our member Merle Rice and now having been sold to the owner of LaBelle, which has also been supported during all of its years of operation. Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23391	From: trainliker	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: Anyone remember ?

I'm sure it must be.  You could email the current proprieter, Jeffrey Parker, and I'm sure he could confirm and might even be amused.   Here is their site:   http://cvmw.com/   You can see a brief history at their "about us" link which states it was founded in 1947 by George Hook, bought by Jack Parker in 1978, and now run by his son Jeffrey.   In the "The CVT Story" link there Jack Parker writes in 1987 mentioning being in Los Angeles.   In the "Photo Albums" link you can see the model railroad.  It looks like all photos, except the "Bittercreek Western" and customer ones, are of their layout.   They are located in Oceano, California now and occasionally are open on special railroad related days, such as a local NMRA chapter convention.  I have been there and it is very interesting AND there is a very high quality model railroad layout to see.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 8:36 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Anyone remember ?   Some months ago I was lucky enough to get about 100 Model Trains magazines through eBay. I was just bagging them and noticed the address label on one of them. CENTRAL VALLEY MODEL WORKS 13000 SCACT ICOY ST. NO. HOLLYWOOD, CALIF Is this the Central Valley kits we knew so well ??? This issue is dated Summer 1957. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23392	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi Michael, The Tortoise machines will never overpower turnouts.  However, there are some stall motor machines that can over power turnouts and can cause all sorts of weird problems, especially if you want to use LEDs in series with these.  These machines usually require the use of a resistor to drop down the voltage to prevent this.  If you don't put the correct resistor for the power supply you are using, they will wreak havoc on the layout.  These stall motors are actually more expensive and more difficult to install, even, though they are sometimes advertised at deep discounts.  They do not come with any switches for indicating and frog powering either.  I suppose they can be marginally cheaper if you don't need these features.  I love the Tortoises and have no problems with indicating LEDs in series with the Tortoise.  I operate on layouts with Tortoises that are over twenty five years old and still operating beautifully. Regards, Vic B. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC ... 4. Although I have seen stall motor machines overpower turnouts, I think the snap action type beat on the points more. Make sure your stock rails are firmly secured and the point assembly is robust. Hope this helps… Michael Michael Greene prrk4@...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23393	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

These machines are pretty bullet poof, but they are also pretty outdated.   The snap action of the solenoids in action is reassuring to hear, but can be over shorter or longer times  pretty hard on the more more current, and more-scale turnouts’ point rail assemblies. Also, the availability of the capacitor discharge units that are the most common power sources for such solenoid machines are becoming very hard to get.  Like Vic Butlers, I also went to Tortoises 15 years ago, retired a lot of very good Kemtron and Tenshodo machines, and have never looked back.  My staging yard still has all solenoid units, but these are PECO, and the turnouts are industrial quality to handle them well. My power source for these machines dates back to the 1970s. Denny   Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23394	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Color match for Green EJ&E

Attachments : IMG_2095.JPG I am trying to match the color on this Roundhouse EJ&E metal gon...any ideas for simple match, or I am just going to have to mix my own?   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23395	From: rshiel01	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: RMC

Hello all! I recently tried to renew my subscription to RMC, but encountered a glitch on the website for White River Productions, and could not access the link. Three e-mails later, no response. I understood that an issue has already been published, and publication would continue. Is this correct? Any info appreciated! Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23396	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: RMC

Yes and the issue was very nice.  Why don't you call them? Brad Smith Franklin WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 22, 2014, at 4:13 PM, rshiel01@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hello all! I recently tried to renew my subscription to RMC, but encountered a glitch on the website for White River Productions, and could not access the link. Three e-mails later, no response. I understood that an issue has already been published, and publication would continue. Is this correct? Any info appreciated! Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23397	From: trainliker	Date: 11/22/2014
Subject: Re: RMC

 Yes. A "July-October" issue is out which catches up on all the articles I guess.  They state it will be a monthly after this.  Extremely high paper and printing quality.   If your emails were today, perhaps they are just closed on Saturday.  Perhaps check back Monday.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RMC   Yes and the issue was very nice.  Why don't you call them? Brad Smith Franklin WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 22, 2014, at 4:13 PM, rshiel01@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hello all! I recently tried to renew my subscription to RMC, but encountered a glitch on the website for White River Productions, and could not access the link. Three e-mails later, no response. I understood that an issue has already been published, and publication would continue. Is this correct? Any info appreciated! Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23398	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: Color match for Green EJ&E [1 Attachment]

I don't know how much help this is going to be, but in the earlier years of model railroading there weren't that many color shades available.  More recently, and going back to the mid-'70's, early 80's etc., Floquil offered no less than 11 different Green paints.  When MDC offered these cast metal kits, there were no more than 6 Greens in the hobby and MDC offered only 3 of them from what I take away from the catalogs of the day.  There was Box Car Green, Diesel Dark Green, Diesel Light Green, Coach Green, Medium Green and Pullman Green -- all available in the early '50's -- most by Floquil (except for Medium Green).  At that same time, Roundhouse offered Coach Green, Medium Green and Pullman Green.  Independently, 410M offered Box Car Green, Coach Green and Medium Green.    Roundhouse wouldn't have used Floquil paint since they had a paint line of their own.  I believe Roundhouse used 410M paint later on, but there's a good chance they may only have used their MDC paint when they produced these metal car kits, but you should be able to check that out in the V File I did on MDC/Roundhouse (I just don't recall right now).  If MDC paint was used for their green freight cars, it would seem not have been Coach Green nor Pullman Green but most likely Medium Green -- which can't be matched by a Floquil paint.  If on the other hand Roundhouse used 410M paint, it could likely have been Box Car Green, but again, the MDC Files should have something on that.  Regretfully, I can't narrow it down any further at this time, but this should eliminate most and leave only two to choose from.  I seem to recall that Roundhouse worked with Stewart-Lundahl Paints at one time, which had a connection with 410M Paint and which may have been bought out by MDC at some point.       Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 11/22/2014 5:09:44 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I am trying to match the color on this Roundhouse EJ&E metal gon...any ideas for simple match, or I am just going to have to mix my own?   Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23399	From: thealamo	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: RMC

Nov 23 2014 Chuck, I am from the other side of the 'Big Pond' (Europe).  I have not yet received the Jul-Oct issue.  I have just checked their website and a new issue is out: Nov-Dec 2014. My subscription expires with the Nov 2014 issue, however the new Publisher said that he will honor old subscribers. Last issue received was the June issue.  I should receive 5 issues, Jul-Oct and Nov-Dec have been published (none of them received yet) so I should receive Jan, Feb and Mar 2015 before renewing my subscription... I also am a regular subscriber to Model Railroader since the sixties.  However, the issues of Mod. Railr. did reach me one month (even one month and half!) before the R.M.C. issues.  I suppose because of different way of  mailing!  I model the SANTA FE and I also have a strong interest in military railways, anything military on rails (Hospital/Ambulance trains, railway artillery, trains moving tanks and vehicles, troop trains and the like). Regards, Alamo On 23 November 2014 at 01:10, ckinzer@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:    Yes. A "July-October" issue is out which catches up on all the articles I guess.  They state it will be a monthly after this.  Extremely high paper and printing quality.   If your emails were today, perhaps they are just closed on Saturday.  Perhaps check back Monday.   Chuck Kinzer   ----- Original Message ----- From: Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] RMC   Yes and the issue was very nice.  Why don't you call them? Brad Smith Franklin WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 22, 2014, at 4:13 PM, rshiel01@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Hello all! I recently tried to renew my subscription to RMC, but encountered a glitch on the website for White River Productions, and could not access the link. Three e-mails later, no response. I understood that an issue has already been published, and publication would continue. Is this correct? Any info appreciated! Cheers, Russ in Adelaide

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23400	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: A tip from HO Monthly

I think you'll be a bit 'WOW'd' by this timeless tip for excellent track switch electrical point contact. 8^) Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23401	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Classic model construction

Heres some modeling from the 50's where the fellow didn't let the lack of suitable kit-bashing material stop him. Make note of what the sidewalls of the steel car are modeled with... From a HO Monthly magazine circa 50's Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23402	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly [1 Attachment]

On 24/11/14 15:15, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > [Attachment(s)<#TopText> from Mike Bauers included below] > > I think you'll be a bit 'WOW'd' by this timeless tip for excellent track switch > electrical point contact. And don't forget to wear your full body Ebola protective suit, mask, goggles and breathing apparatus when operating your railroad.. Ye gods - we used to break thermometers and play with that stuff when we were kids. Maybe that's my problem now.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23403	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/23/2014
Subject: Re: Classic model construction [1 Attachment]

On 24/11/14 15:15, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Heres some modeling from the 50's where the fellow didn't let the lack of > suitable kit-bashing material stop him. > > Make note of what the sidewalls of the steel car are modeled with... > > From a HO Monthly magazine circa 50's > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers Didn't the build the Titanic with that stuff? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23404	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

I used to play with it too. Maybe that is what is wrong with me. Maybe I will ask my wife.  Brad  Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 24/11/14 15:15, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > [Attachment(s)<#TopText> from Mike Bauers included below] > > I think you'll be a bit 'WOW'd' by this timeless tip for excellent track switch > electrical point contact. And don't forget to wear your full body Ebola protective suit, mask, goggles and breathing apparatus when operating your railroad.. Ye gods - we used to break thermometers and play with that stuff when we were kids. Maybe that's my problem now.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23405	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Denny, and anyone else who would care to comment,   I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed.  I've received some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be caused by this issue.  I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts' gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't all have continuous H0 track gauge specs.  Another issue I read was, besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track, which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth rail joint.  It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth and kink-free transition.  Would you care to comment on any of this to help my decision?   Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts, which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs.  I may still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being "industrial quality" I'm now undecided.  Could you or anyone else here give some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved turnouts?  Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using snap-action switch machines (which I already have).  Too, would anyone know if Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track -- than does Peco?  Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having 2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but not 32" radius), or did I miss something there?  Any help would be appreciated, thanks.      Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 11/22/2014 2:17:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   These machines are pretty bullet poof, but they are also pretty outdated.   The snap action of the solenoids in action is reassuring to hear, but can be over shorter or longer times  pretty hard on the more more current, and more-scale turnouts’ point rail assemblies. Also, the availability of the capacitor discharge units that are the most common power sources for such solenoid machines are becoming very hard to get.  Like Vic Butlers, I also went to Tortoises 15 years ago, retired a lot of very good Kemtron and Tenshodo machines, and have never looked back.  My staging yard still has all solenoid units, but these are PECO, and the turnouts are industrial quality to handle them well. My power source for these machines dates back to the 1970s. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23406	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

On 11/24/2014 6:26 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Denny, and anyone else who would care to comment,   I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed.  I've received some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be caused by this issue.  I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts' gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't all have continuous H0 track gauge specs.  Another issue I read was, besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track, which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth rail joint.  It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth and kink-free transition.  Would you care to comment on any of this to help my decision?   Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts, which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs.  I may still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being "industrial quality" I'm now undecided.  Could you or anyone else here give some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved turnouts?  Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using snap-action switch machines (which I already have).  Too, would anyone know if Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track -- than does Peco?  Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having 2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but not 32" radius), or did I miss something there?  Any help would be appreciated, thanks.      Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 11/22/2014 2:17:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   These machines are pretty bullet poof, but they are also pretty outdated.   The snap action of the solenoids in action is reassuring to hear, but can be over shorter or longer times  pretty hard on the more more current, and more-scale turnouts’ point rail assemblies. Also, the availability of the capacitor discharge units that are the most common power sources for such solenoid machines are becoming very hard to get.  Like Vic Butlers, I also went to Tortoises 15 years ago, retired a lot of very good Kemtron and Tenshodo machines, and have never looked back.  My staging yard still has all solenoid units, but these are PECO, and the turnouts are industrial quality to handle them well. My power source for these machines dates back to the 1970s. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento The Pecos are certainly the most rugged out there. My experience with anything Shinohara, especially the code 83, is that they're awfully flimsy, especially if you're going to use a twin coil. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23407	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi Ray, It is good that you are doing your homework.  Be aware that up until very recently, Peco track and turnouts were really made for the European market and all of their track products were detailed as European track and turnouts.  When you compare these to U.S. style track and turnouts the differences are very evident.  But, a whole layout with only Peco products isn't so bad.  I operate regularly on a layout that is completely Peco and when painted up and ballasted, you don't notice the difference.  However, I do notice the thin white styrene shims against the guard rails, :o)  They really were not NMRA compliant and needed these shims.  Additionally, there may be some tweaking needed elsewhere.  But, this is most likely true for almost all turnout makes. Having said the above, I am of the understanding that Peco now makes U.S. style track and turnouts and the quality is much better.  (Beware of the older stuff)  At the prices they charge, the quality better be good!  One nice feature about Peco turnouts is that they are curvable, to a degree.  So that flexibility is nice. I have never had a problem with Shinohara/Walthers turnouts either, but other people claim to have issues.   Also don't overlook Atlas turnouts, unless you need something other than Code 83 (or code 100).  Central Valley makes some nice kits that may be suitable for you as well. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 07:10:07 -0600 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines   On 11/24/2014 6:26 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Denny, and anyone else who would care to comment,   I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed.  I've received some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be caused by this issue.  I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts' gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't all have continuous H0 track gauge specs.  Another issue I read was, besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track, which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth rail joint.  It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth and kink-free transition.  Would you care to comment on any of this to help my decision?   Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts, which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs.  I may still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being "industrial quality" I'm now undecided.  Could you or anyone else here give some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved turnouts?  Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using snap-action switch machines (which I already have).  Too, would anyone know if Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track -- than does Peco?  Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having 2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but not 32" radius), or did I miss something there?  Any help would be appreciated, thanks.      Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 11/22/2014 2:17:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   These machines are pretty bullet poof, but they are also pretty outdated.   The snap action of the solenoids in action is reassuring to hear, but can be over shorter or longer times  pretty hard on the more more current, and more-scale turnouts’ point rail assemblies. Also, the availability of the capacitor discharge units that are the most common power sources for such solenoid machines are becoming very hard to get.  Like Vic Butlers, I also went to Tortoises 15 years ago, retired a lot of very good Kemtron and Tenshodo machines, and have never looked back.  My staging yard still has all solenoid units, but these are PECO, and the turnouts are industrial quality to handle them well. My power source for these machines dates back to the 1970s. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento The Pecos are certainly the most rugged out there. My experience with anything Shinohara, especially the code 83, is that they're awfully flimsy, especially if you're going to use a twin coil. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23408	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly [1 Attachment]

Attachments : I wonder haw many "warning" posts we'll get about the 'hazards' of mercury. Ten, 15, more? Walter On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from Mike Bauers included below] I think you'll be a bit 'WOW'd' by this timeless tip for excellent track switch electrical point contact. 8^) Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23409	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

Ditto here on playing with mercury.   But I submit that I have more likely been affected by the all the lead dust that I inhaled and spent hours with it osmosis-ing through the skin on my finger tips while drilling literally hundreds of *78, 79 or 80 holes in Cary lead antimony FT, F3, F7, S-2, SW1500 and H10-44 shells for grab irons and what not.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 3:50 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A tip from HO Monthly     I used to play with it too. Maybe that is what is wrong with me. Maybe I will ask my wife.    Brad  Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23410	From: jbark76	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

I remember an article from MMR/RMC from the late 60s/early 70s suggesting using asbestos for roadbed.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23411	From: Denis Long	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly [1 Attachment]

Yes Doug, And you smeared it around with a fingertip, and made a fabulous, shiny coin with it. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23412	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

I forgot how we made silver pennies.  Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 24, 2014, at 3:28 PM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Yes Doug, And you smeared it around with a fingertip, and made a fabulous, shiny coin with it. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23413	From: Dale Smith	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

Does anyone remember all those articles about casting with Cerrobend that MR ran back in th 50's and early 60's.  No concerns about the cadmium and lead in that then.   As to mercury, I remember kids at school playing with it but for some reason it seemed "unnatural" for a metal to be liquid, so I avoided it.   Now I can't blame it for my present state. Dale Smith Pacifica, CA On 11/24/2014 1:50 AM, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I used to play with it too. Maybe that is what is wrong with me. Maybe I will ask my wife.  Brad  Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 24/11/14 15:15, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > [Attachment(s)<#TopText> from Mike Bauers included below] > > I think you'll be a bit 'WOW'd' by this timeless tip for excellent track switch > electrical point contact. And don't forget to wear your full body Ebola protective suit, mask, goggles and breathing apparatus when operating your railroad.. Ye gods - we used to break thermometers and play with that stuff when we were kids. Maybe that's my problem now.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23414	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

I still have some Cerrobend from the mid 1960's. Maybe that is why I am like I am.  Brad Smith Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 24, 2014, at 5:47 PM, Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Does anyone remember all those articles about casting with Cerrobend that MR ran back in th 50's and early 60's.  No concerns about the cadmium and lead in that then.   As to mercury, I remember kids at school playing with it but for some reason it seemed "unnatural" for a metal to be liquid, so I avoided it.   Now I can't blame it for my present state. Dale Smith Pacifica, CA On 11/24/2014 1:50 AM, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I used to play with it too. Maybe that is what is wrong with me. Maybe I will ask my wife.  Brad  Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 24/11/14 15:15, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > [Attachment(s)<#TopText> from Mike Bauers included below] > > I think you'll be a bit 'WOW'd' by this timeless tip for excellent track switch > electrical point contact. And don't forget to wear your full body Ebola protective suit, mask, goggles and breathing apparatus when operating your railroad.. Ye gods - we used to break thermometers and play with that stuff when we were kids. Maybe that's my problem now.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23415	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/24/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

I won't argue about heavy exposure to asbestos causing serious health issues.  Have you ever been in a brake shoe factory?  Yikes, I couldn't stand being there for more than an hour or so at most, sure glad I did not have to work there every day.  It was way worse than the tire factories (ewww, smelly!) I also had to go to to repair IBM equipment back in the day. However, occasional use of asbestos while exercising common sense generally should not be a problem.  Mixing it is not too bad if you don't stir up the dust.  Generally problems with household asbestos are due to improper removal and disposal.   I remember my dad, once a year removing the old asbestos insulation from the pipes that fed the radiators and mixing the asbestos and dipping the cloth into the mix by hand and re-wrapping the pipes.  Dad lived to almost 100, 3 months shy of his goal.  I am kinda thinking that the asbestos scare has gotten a bit out of hand, at least for the occasional use.  I can certainly see why it is no longer used for brake shoes and pads tho. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 13:25:04 -0800 Subject: RE: [vintageHO] A tip from HO Monthly   I remember an article from MMR/RMC from the late 60s/early 70s suggesting using asbestos for roadbed.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23416	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

On 25/11/14 15:19, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I won't argue about heavy exposure to asbestos causing serious health > issues. Have you ever been in a brake shoe factory? Yikes, I > couldn't stand being there for more than an hour or so at most, sure > glad I did not have to work there every day. It was way worse than > the tire factories (ewww, smelly!) I also had to go to to repair IBM > equipment back in the day. However, occasional use of asbestos while > exercising common sense generally should not be a problem. Mixing it > is not too bad if you don't stir up the dust. Generally problems > with household asbestos are due to improper removal and disposal. I > remember my dad, once a year removing the old asbestos insulation > from the pipes that fed the radiators and mixing the asbestos and > dipping the cloth into the mix by hand and re-wrapping the pipes. > Dad lived to almost 100, 3 months shy of his goal. I am kinda > thinking that the asbestos scare has gotten a bit out of hand, at > least for the occasional use. I can certainly see why it is no > longer used for brake shoes and pads tho. Don't take it too lightly.. It can take decades to take effect.. I worked installing insulation in a new hospital building in the 1960's. It was in smallish plastic bags to fit into small spaces in the ceiling cavities above operating theatres in a 6-floor hospital building we were working on. Many bags got torn and leaked in the handling and installation. I'm pretty certain it was asbestos, and there was a distinct possibility of it filtering its way down into the theatres. When the asbestos scare came on, I reported this to a government agency set up for the purpose, who investigated, but found no problems. They also put me on a register of workers with possible asbestos exposure - so far no problems, and I've just hit 76.. However there is a 14-floor building here in the central city which I understand has been emptied because of the huge amount of asbestos used during construction - something like 50 tons, from memory. The powers that be don't know what to do, because it may cost $50 million (I think it is) to remove the asbestos.. Back to trains - asbestos was used widely to insulate loco boilers - I wonder how many died as a result of contact there.. Is is mesothelioma?? Yep.. Hideous way to die.. Google it.. My Last Post (no pun) on this topic!! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23417	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

I was employed as a mechanical engineer at the Milwaukee Road shops. In the 1970's a lot of the old steam men were still there. I loved to listen to the stories. The machinists who worked on the running gear were working under the boiler while the boilermakers were installing the asbestos bricks on the boiler above and cutting them to fit. The machinists would look like snowmen when they came out from under the engine. And yes, they died of lung disease. I lost some good friends to lung disease caused by the asbestos exposure. Watched their lungs fail slowly.  Brad Smith Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 25, 2014, at 3:32 AM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 25/11/14 15:19, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I won't argue about heavy exposure to asbestos causing serious health > issues. Have you ever been in a brake shoe factory? Yikes, I > couldn't stand being there for more than an hour or so at most, sure > glad I did not have to work there every day. It was way worse than > the tire factories (ewww, smelly!) I also had to go to to repair IBM > equipment back in the day. However, occasional use of asbestos while > exercising common sense generally should not be a problem. Mixing it > is not too bad if you don't stir up the dust. Generally problems > with household asbestos are due to improper removal and disposal. I > remember my dad, once a year removing the old asbestos insulation > from the pipes that fed the radiators and mixing the asbestos and > dipping the cloth into the mix by hand and re-wrapping the pipes. > Dad lived to almost 100, 3 months shy of his goal. I am kinda > thinking that the asbestos scare has gotten a bit out of hand, at > least for the occasional use. I can certainly see why it is no > longer used for brake shoes and pads tho. Don't take it too lightly.. It can take decades to take effect.. I worked installing insulation in a new hospital building in the 1960's. It was in smallish plastic bags to fit into small spaces in the ceiling cavities above operating theatres in a 6-floor hospital building we were working on. Many bags got torn and leaked in the handling and installation. I'm pretty certain it was asbestos, and there was a distinct possibility of it filtering its way down into the theatres. When the asbestos scare came on, I reported this to a government agency set up for the purpose, who investigated, but found no problems. They also put me on a register of workers with possible asbestos exposure - so far no problems, and I've just hit 76.. However there is a 14-floor building here in the central city which I understand has been emptied because of the huge amount of asbestos used during construction - something like 50 tons, from memory. The powers that be don't know what to do, because it may cost $50 million (I think it is) to remove the asbestos.. Back to trains - asbestos was used widely to insulate loco boilers - I wonder how many died as a result of contact there.. Is is mesothelioma?? Yep.. Hideous way to die.. Google it.. My Last Post (no pun) on this topic!! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23418	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: [EarlyRail] Classic model construction [1 Attachment]

A screen grab of the DIY MiniRiveter published in MR... One of those forgotten classic tools made simple. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Nov 24, 2014, at 6:01 PM, Mike Bauers <mwbauers55@...> wrote: A little noticed article in MR October-79 was a 3 pager on making a Mini-Riveter from the common hobby shop brass shapes. You'd like the convenience of tweaking it to use the NWSL rivet die sets, a minor modification. The tool is rather easy to build and relatively low cost. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Nov 24, 2014, at 8:41 AM, Geo Stahlberg <mermaidnc@...> wrote: Kalmbach published collections of 1950s-60s article on scratch building; the books can sometimes be found on abebooks or ebay.  Kalmbach also released selected issues as a disc. substitute styrene for the cardstock, Evergreen styrene shapes, and some modern castings: the articles still make good models.  if someone models a specific era, say 1950s, all the magazines published before then will ensure that the rolling stock is not too modern for the era.  George From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers Heres some modeling from the 50's where the fellow didn't let the lack of suitable kit-bashing material stop him. Make note of what the sidewalls of the steel car are modeled with...

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23419	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

Yep, I agree Brad.  That was my point; a lot of exposure to asbestos is certainly bad for your health.  I suspect that the poor guys who worked at the brake factories also had similar fates.   But, as we grow and learn a lot of things about toxic materials, we also learn how to work with them properly.  I have no doubt if asbestos was to be considered a really important material, safeguards would be found and used.  But, apparently asbestos must not be considered a worthy material to warrant that kind of effort. Just my thoughts. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 10:38:13 -0600 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A tip from HO Monthly   I was employed as a mechanical engineer at the Milwaukee Road shops. In the 1970's a lot of the old steam men were still there. I loved to listen to the stories. The machinists who worked on the running gear were working under the boiler while the boilermakers were installing the asbestos bricks on the boiler above and cutting them to fit. The machinists would look like snowmen when they came out from under the engine. And yes, they died of lung disease. I lost some good friends to lung disease caused by the asbestos exposure. Watched their lungs fail slowly.  Brad Smith Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 25, 2014, at 3:32 AM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 25/11/14 15:19, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I won't argue about heavy exposure to asbestos causing serious health > issues. Have you ever been in a brake shoe factory? Yikes, I > couldn't stand being there for more than an hour or so at most, sure > glad I did not have to work there every day. It was way worse than > the tire factories (ewww, smelly!) I also had to go to to repair IBM > equipment back in the day. However, occasional use of asbestos while > exercising common sense generally should not be a problem. Mixing it > is not too bad if you don't stir up the dust. Generally problems > with household asbestos are due to improper removal and disposal. I > remember my dad, once a year removing the old asbestos insulation > from the pipes that fed the radiators and mixing the asbestos and > dipping the cloth into the mix by hand and re-wrapping the pipes. > Dad lived to almost 100, 3 months shy of his goal. I am kinda > thinking that the asbestos scare has gotten a bit out of hand, at > least for the occasional use. I can certainly see why it is no > longer used for brake shoes and pads tho. Don't take it too lightly.. It can take decades to take effect.. I worked installing insulation in a new hospital building in the 1960's. It was in smallish plastic bags to fit into small spaces in the ceiling cavities above operating theatres in a 6-floor hospital building we were working on. Many bags got torn and leaked in the handling and installation. I'm pretty certain it was asbestos, and there was a distinct possibility of it filtering its way down into the theatres. When the asbestos scare came on, I reported this to a government agency set up for the purpose, who investigated, but found no problems. They also put me on a register of workers with possible asbestos exposure - so far no problems, and I've just hit 76.. However there is a 14-floor building here in the central city which I understand has been emptied because of the huge amount of asbestos used during construction - something like 50 tons, from memory. The powers that be don't know what to do, because it may cost $50 million (I think it is) to remove the asbestos.. Back to trains - asbestos was used widely to insulate loco boilers - I wonder how many died as a result of contact there.. Is is mesothelioma?? Yep.. Hideous way to die.. Google it.. My Last Post (no pun) on this topic!! -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23420	From: albyrno	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: unknown brass tender

I added an album to photos of unknown tender.I found this tender mixed in with a box of used plastic tenders.I know its old but have no idea who made it or what it goes to.Any ideas?    Alan

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23421	From: the_plainsman	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: unknown brass tender

Hi Alan, at first glance it looks like it could be a Knapp - later (California) Bowser tender. Don't have mine handy for a direct comparison, but Jim H'a albums have one pictured in our archives. A nice find! Jay W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23422	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Ray Wetzel wrote: I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and   possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed. I've received   some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these  turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked   throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be   caused by this issue. I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts'   gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't   all have continuous H0 track gauge specs. Another issue I read was,   besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the   cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track,  which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth   rail joint. It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track   needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth  and kink-free transition. Would you care to comment on any of this to help  my decision? Ray, as has been already well noted, PECO makes two lines:  1) The original English line, largely made to NEM (European “NMRA”) standards, but also scaled against the British “OO” 4 mm/ft. rolling stock scale. This results in slightly overwide flange ways inside the frog guard rails.  IN real time, this causes few problems with good wheel sets and trucks that are fully square and in tram. However, like as already been reported, addition of 0.010” styrene shims on the flange side of the guard rails brings them close to the NMRA standards that most of US wheel sets have come to expect.  This is an easy fix inasmuch as the rails are also styrene.   The primary footprint differences are the much widened tie spacing, and that the diverging track, beginning with the point rails themselves assumes immediately a steady curvature radius (common prototype practice in Europe, but rare in US where point rails and frog are usually  straight and distance from point to frog can be pretty long). The advantage of this is that in both prototype and in model, turnouts of this type of nominally the same divergence number can take considerably less space (the prime reason why I chose them for my staging yard). Also, and perhaps this might be important in your case, these turnouts of very steady diverging route curvature can be dropped right into a curve of the same nominal curvature, while turnouts of the same number made to NMRA standards cannot.    These turnouts are super reliable, but the solenoid motors designed specifically for their use are designed to primarily be installed from below in a pretty big hole under the points.  I have about a dozen of these turnouts , ten of which on a yard ladder are wired to be thrown in sequences, while two serve very well off a busy under-table turning loop, but with Tortoises. 2) Peco has a whole newer line of turnouts and flex track made to  NMRA standards.  I have not used any of this newer product, but judging from experience and reputation, I would presume pretty high quality.  Th Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts,   which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs. I may   still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being   "industrial quality" I'm now undecided. Could you or anyone else here give  some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved   turnouts? Personally, the deciding factor in the purchase of curved turnouts would be the radius that I desired in the rail size that I needed!  Although I have a lot of turnouts that I have curved myself (almost all altered Shinohara), and I have some custom-built special use curved #12s, I have no experience whatsoever with purchased curved turnouts, but I would not be afraid of them.   Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near  "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using   snap-action switch machines (which I already have). Too, would anyone know if  Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track  -- than does Peco? Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having  2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as  well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco  curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see  their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but  not 32" radius), or did I miss something there? Any help would be  appreciated, thanks. Ray, a fact to be faced is that virtually every rail manufacturer producing rail of nominally the same code will produce that rail to its own distinct profile, the effect being that the rail joiners of one manufacturer may well not, and commonly do not,  fit another’s. The most notorious problem has been that joiners designed to fit Shinohara/Walthers rail with its very thick web, will not mate tightly at all with the popular M-E track with its very thin web.  VV, the M-E joiners will not join with the Shinohara without serious hazarding the safety of finger nails, fingers, and knuckles. There are ways around this, however, not excluding soldering, pinching joiners, etc. I did a chart on this mess some years ago, and if I can find it, I will post it.    I do not know which PECO turnouts that you are investigating, but I presume that newer ones made to NMRA standards.  If they are quoting two different radii on the same turnout, it probably means that the effective radius subtended by the  points on through the frog is the larger of the two, with the diverging track beyond the frog subtending a sharper radius beyond- actually the US common standard which in practical effect is a sort of transition curvature.  If you have John Armstrong’s classic Kalmbach book on track and layout design, he does a wonderful job of explaining this- much better than I.   I may have only just muddied the waters for you…. Denny     Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23423	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/25/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Denny,   I wish to thank you very much for your detailed and clear input here, as being very helpful.  If any of it was muddied at all it gives me thought to ponder those issues.  I believe I can see some of the issues I was concerned with as originating from Peco's English line of trackage and turnouts.  One point I'm not quite sure of is what "M-E" track represents, but this is minor.  If this includes Atlas flex track, then I can see I might have issues to contend with when using Shinohara turnouts with it.  I prefer Atlas flex track as the rail slides easily through the ties when making a bend and it's nice to work with because of that feature.    If every manufacturer, including Peco and Shinohara, produce rail in their own distinctive cross-section/profile, then it would appear that their compatibility with any other manufacturer's rail would vary from one to the other with none really being easily used with each other.  I don't know of any other curved turnout manufacturer than the two already mentioned, and if they both use very different rail joiners, then I have to guess that no one uses flex track different from that of their turnouts.  One thing I forgot to question originally when mentioning rail profile is each manufacturer's possibly different tie height, if any such difference exists, and if it does then shimming must be the way to eliminate any problems there.   I prefer not to use Atlas turnouts as I've learned that they're not as reliable in keeping derailments down to a minimum when using long-wheelbased engines having large-diameter drivers.  I primarily operate steam, some of it "heavy" (large), such as Varney and Bowser Northerns and Penn Line Duplexes which are advertised to be operated on a minimum of 24" radius with ease but not always necessarily through 24" (or larger?) radius turnouts, and prefer using more trouble free turnouts if at all possible.  That you apparently use Shinohara turnouts, albeit altered ones, I take it that you must feel these are fairly reliable but I have to guess to that you may be using this same manufacturer's running rail.  I note your recommendation of the new line of Peco NMRA turnouts as being super reliable but at my age I don't think I want to work very long under the layout any more to install the solenoid motors, but if Peco's web is better matched to Atlas then this is the way I'd probably be better to go -- unless Shinohara flex track can be formed with equal ease that Atlas is noted for, with the inner rail sliding easily through the ties when curved.  Many thanks again.   Ray W.     In a message dated 11/26/2014 12:24:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and   possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed. I've received   some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these  turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked   throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be   caused by this issue. I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts'   gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't   all have continuous H0 track gauge specs. Another issue I read was,   besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the   cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track,  which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth   rail joint. It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track   needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth  and kink-free transition. Would you care to comment on any of this to help  my decision? Ray, as has been already well noted, PECO makes two lines:  1) The original English line, largely made to NEM (European “NMRA”) standards, but also scaled against the British “OO” 4 mm/ft. rolling stock scale. This results in slightly overwide flange ways inside the frog guard rails.  IN real time, this causes few problems with good wheel sets and trucks that are fully square and in tram. However, like as already been reported, addition of 0.010” styrene shims on the flange side of the guard rails brings them close to the NMRA standards that most of US wheel sets have come to expect.  This is an easy fix inasmuch as the rails are also styrene.   The primary footprint differences are the much widened tie spacing, and that the diverging track, beginning with the point rails themselves assumes immediately a steady curvature radius (common prototype practice in Europe, but rare in US where point rails and frog are usually  straight and distance from point to frog can be pretty long). The advantage of this is that in both prototype and in model, turnouts of this type of nominally the same divergence number can take considerably less space (the prime reason why I chose them for my staging yard). Also, and perhaps this might be important in your case, these turnouts of very steady diverging route curvature can be dropped right into a curve of the same nominal curvature, while turnouts of the same number made to NMRA standards cannot.    These turnouts are super reliable, but the solenoid motors designed specifically for their use are designed to primarily be installed from below in a pretty big hole under the points.  I have about a dozen of these turnouts , ten of which on a yard ladder are wired to be thrown in sequences, while two serve very well off a busy under-table turning loop, but with Tortoises. 2) Peco has a whole newer line of turnouts and flex track made to  NMRA standards.  I have not used any of this newer product, but judging from experience and reputation, I would presume pretty high quality.  Th Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts,   which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs. I may   still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being   "industrial quality" I'm now undecided. Could you or anyone else here give  some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved   turnouts? Personally, the deciding factor in the purchase of curved turnouts would be the radius that I desired in the rail size that I needed!  Although I have a lot of turnouts that I have curved myself (almost all altered Shinohara), and I have some custom-built special use curved #12s, I have no experience whatsoever with purchased curved turnouts, but I would not be afraid of them. Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near  "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using   snap-action switch machines (which I already have). Too, would anyone know if  Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track  -- than does Peco? Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having  2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as  well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco  curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see  their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but  not 32" radius), or did I miss something there? Any help would be  appreciated, thanks. Ray, a fact to be faced is that virtually every rail manufacturer producing rail of nominally the same code will produce that rail to its own distinct profile, the effect being that the rail joiners of one manufacturer may well not, and commonly do not,  fit another’s. The most notorious problem has been that joiners designed to fit Shinohara/Walthers rail with its very thick web, will not mate tightly at all with the popular M-E track with its very thin web.  VV, the M-E joiners will not join with the Shinohara without serious hazarding the safety of finger nails, fingers, and knuckles. There are ways around this, however, not excluding soldering, pinching joiners, etc. I did a chart on this mess some years ago, and if I can find it, I will post it.    I do not know which PECO turnouts that you are investigating, but I presume that newer ones made to NMRA standards.  If they are quoting two different radii on the same turnout, it probably means that the effective radius subtended by the  points on through the frog is the larger of the two, with the diverging track beyond the frog subtending a sharper radius beyond- actually the US common standard which in practical effect is a sort of transition curvature.  If you have John Armstrong’s classic Kalmbach book on track and layout design, he does a wonderful job of explaining this- much better than I.   I may have only just muddied the waters for you…. Denny     Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23424	From: johnhutnick	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

I have built a small HO railway, 5'x5', with 3 circuits of code 100 track.  I used 22" Atlas, 19 7/8" Peco and 17 1/4" Peco.  I have Peco setrack TO's, short radius and some short curved.  Straight track is sectional Atlas, down to 1" pieces.  All Atlas is brown USA.   Everything runs - Bachmann Spectrum steam, AHM, Gilbert, Hornby, Fleischmann, Roco, Trix, Wrenn, etc.  I do not see any substantial problems.  I made up a train of 15 various US hoppers of all vintages - no derailments.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23425	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

I’ll chime in here about reliability of turnouts. I operate once  month on a friends very large HO layout. He uses the newer HO Peco turnouts for main line, in addition to some home builts. There are some older Atlas turnouts in the yards. Most derailments happen in the yards. When we run, there are about 30-40 trains run, each one doing significant switching of cars along the route. Typical run time is about 30 minutes per train, so many many opportunities for derailments. He also uses the Tortoise slow motion switch machines and no snap type machines, which have turned out to be very reliable themselves, and are also good to the turnouts as well.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23426	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

John,   This is encouraging to know that you're using two manufacturers' products and have no problems with operation. I note you don't use any Atlas flex track but Atlas sectional track instead.  A question on these two tracks' web differences that was brought out in the previous post; did you find much of a difference and if so, who's rail joiners did you use?  I'm hoping for just as reliable operation as you have but have had my share of problems with Atlas turnouts.  Besides, I need to use some curved turnouts.  Thanks for your post.   Ray W.     In a message dated 11/26/2014 5:29:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I have built a small HO railway, 5'x5', with 3 circuits of code 100 track.  I used 22" Atlas, 19 7/8" Peco and 17 1/4" Peco.  I have Peco setrack TO's, short radius and some short curved.  Straight track is sectional Atlas, down to 1" pieces.  All Atlas is brown USA.   Everything runs - Bachmann Spectrum steam, AHM, Gilbert, Hornby, Fleischmann, Roco, Trix, Wrenn, etc.  I do not see any substantial problems.  I made up a train of 15 various US hoppers of all vintages - no derailments.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23427	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Jim,   By your mention of "newer Peco turnouts," I'm trusting you mean the new line of NMRA compliant Peco products that Denny related to.  With Atlas turnouts in the yard, this is where derailments could be expected -- as you confirmed here.  What manufacturer's trackage does your friend use between turnouts and is it sectional or flex track, and what rail joiners did he use to get around the problems of mis-matched rail web that Denny  wrote about?  I'm looking forward to this kind of derailment free operation that you're describing here, even though I don't plan on running nearly that amount of trains in one session.  With now using Custom-Line turnouts and an AHM double slip on my present layout, it's taken a lot of tweeking to get it to where I wanted it in reliability.  Many thanks; everyone's input only adds to the overall benefit of this thread.   Ray W.     In a message dated 11/26/2014 6:23:34 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I’ll chime in here about reliability of turnouts. I operate once  month on a friends very large HO layout. He uses the newer HO Peco turnouts for main line, in addition to some home builts. There are some older Atlas turnouts in the yards. Most derailments happen in the yards. When we run, there are about 30-40 trains run, each one doing significant switching of cars along the route. Typical run time is about 30 minutes per train, so many many opportunities for derailments. He also uses the Tortoise slow motion switch machines and no snap type machines, which have turned out to be very reliable themselves, and are also good to the turnouts as well.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23428	From: Larry	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

I have a lead pot and toy soldier molds if anyone would like to give a brat of a child a once in a lifetime gift. ;-) I received mine as a child... in the years before the dangerous toys act. Larry Miller III From: "Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A tip from HO Monthly Does anyone remember all those articles about casting with Cerrobend that MR ran back in th 50's and early 60's.  No concerns about the cadmium and lead in that then.   As to mercury, I remember kids at school playing with it but for some reason it seemed "unnatural" for a metal to be liquid, so I avoided it.   Now I can't blame it for my present state. Dale Smith Pacifica, CA On 11/24/2014 1:50 AM, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I used to play with it too. Maybe that is what is wrong with me. Maybe I will ask my wife.  Brad  Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 24/11/14 15:15, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > [Attachment(s)<#TopText> from Mike Bauers included below] > > I think you'll be a bit 'WOW'd' by this timeless tip for excellent track switch > electrical point contact. And don't forget to wear your full body Ebola protective suit, mask, goggles and breathing apparatus when operating your railroad.. Ye gods - we used to break thermometers and play with that stuff when we were kids. Maybe that's my problem now.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23429	From: shawmut_fan	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

I have one that's worse, though not model related.  I was disassembling an antique (antique to the extent that the stand was a nineteenth century porcelain piece) table lamp and found that the weight in the base was a lead isotope container helpfully labeled with the proper nuclear warnings.  Would have made some interesting car weights -- think of the gentle glow from car windows without any need for a constant lighting circuit! John B. Allyn From: "Larry mrncartoon@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 7:46:14 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A tip from HO Monthly   I have a lead pot and toy soldier molds if anyone would like to give a brat of a child a once in a lifetime gift. ;-) I received mine as a child... in the years before the dangerous toys act. Larry Miller III From: "Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A tip from HO Monthly Does anyone remember all those articles about casting with Cerrobend that MR ran back in th 50's and early 60's.  No concerns about the cadmium and lead in that then.   As to mercury, I remember kids at school playing with it but for some reason it seemed "unnatural" for a metal to be liquid, so I avoided it.   Now I can't blame it for my present state. Dale Smith Pacifica, CA On 11/24/2014 1:50 AM, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I used to play with it too. Maybe that is what is wrong with me. Maybe I will ask my wife.  Brad  Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 24/11/14 15:15, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > [Attachment(s)<#TopText> from Mike Bauers included below] > > I think you'll be a bit 'WOW'd' by this timeless tip for excellent track switch > electrical point contact. And don't forget to wear your full body Ebola protective suit, mask, goggles and breathing apparatus when operating your railroad.. Ye gods - we used to break thermometers and play with that stuff when we were kids. Maybe that's my problem now.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23430	From: Brad Smith	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: A tip from HO Monthly

Wouldn't that be great for the old Lionel radiation container car? Brad Smith Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 26, 2014, at 8:20 AM, john.allyn@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   I have one that's worse, though not model related.  I was disassembling an antique (antique to the extent that the stand was a nineteenth century porcelain piece) table lamp and found that the weight in the base was a lead isotope container helpfully labeled with the proper nuclear warnings.  Would have made some interesting car weights -- think of the gentle glow from car windows without any need for a constant lighting circuit! John B. Allyn From: "Larry mrncartoon@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 7:46:14 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A tip from HO Monthly   I have a lead pot and toy soldier molds if anyone would like to give a brat of a child a once in a lifetime gift. ;-) I received mine as a child... in the years before the dangerous toys act. Larry Miller III From: "Dale Smith dalefsmith@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] A tip from HO Monthly Does anyone remember all those articles about casting with Cerrobend that MR ran back in th 50's and early 60's.  No concerns about the cadmium and lead in that then.   As to mercury, I remember kids at school playing with it but for some reason it seemed "unnatural" for a metal to be liquid, so I avoided it.   Now I can't blame it for my present state. Dale Smith Pacifica, CA On 11/24/2014 1:50 AM, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I used to play with it too. Maybe that is what is wrong with me. Maybe I will ask my wife.  Brad  Franklin, WI Sent from Brad's iPod On Nov 23, 2014, at 10:43 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   On 24/11/14 15:15, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > [Attachment(s)<#TopText> from Mike Bauers included below] > > I think you'll be a bit 'WOW'd' by this timeless tip for excellent track switch > electrical point contact. And don't forget to wear your full body Ebola protective suit, mask, goggles and breathing apparatus when operating your railroad.. Ye gods - we used to break thermometers and play with that stuff when we were kids. Maybe that's my problem now.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23431	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi Ray, Code 100 is .10" high, code 83 is .083" high, code 7- is .070" high, etc.  While there are absolutely differences in rail profile, web, head and foot, the height should be exactly the same.  There may be a few issues using rail joiners to connect one to the other, but I think they are minor.  I used Atlas Super Flex Code 83 in hidden areas, because it curves so nicely and I connected this to ME track.  I use ME track everywhere else and I use ME rail to make my own turnouts.  So far I have made over 30 turnouts and on the average, can turn one out (forgive the pun) about every 30 minutes, but that is another subject. However, I might add that if one plans on using Fast Tracks jigs to make turnouts, you must get the jig for the rail you use, because I can tell you that Atlas Code 83 rail does NOT fit into a jig made for ME code 83 rail. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC  One thing I forgot to question originally when mentioning rail profile is each manufacturer's possibly different tie height, if any such difference exists, and if it does then shimming must be the way to eliminate any problems there.     Ray W.     In a message dated 11/26/2014 12:24:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and   possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed. I've received   some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these  turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked   throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be   caused by this issue. I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts'   gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't   all have continuous H0 track gauge specs. Another issue I read was,   besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the   cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track,  which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth   rail joint. It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track   needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth  and kink-free transition. Would you care to comment on any of this to help  my decision? Ray, as has been already well noted, PECO makes two lines:  1) The original English line, largely made to NEM (European “NMRA”) standards, but also scaled against the British “OO” 4 mm/ft. rolling stock scale. This results in slightly overwide flange ways inside the frog guard rails.  IN real time, this causes few problems with good wheel sets and trucks that are fully square and in tram. However, like as already been reported, addition of 0.010” styrene shims on the flange side of the guard rails brings them close to the NMRA standards that most of US wheel sets have come to expect.  This is an easy fix inasmuch as the rails are also styrene.   The primary footprint differences are the much widened tie spacing, and that the diverging track, beginning with the point rails themselves assumes immediately a steady curvature radius (common prototype practice in Europe, but rare in US where point rails and frog are usually  straight and distance from point to frog can be pretty long). The advantage of this is that in both prototype and in model, turnouts of this type of nominally the same divergence number can take considerably less space (the prime reason why I chose them for my staging yard). Also, and perhaps this might be important in your case, these turnouts of very steady diverging route curvature can be dropped right into a curve of the same nominal curvature, while turnouts of the same number made to NMRA standards cannot.    These turnouts are super reliable, but the solenoid motors designed specifically for their use are designed to primarily be installed from below in a pretty big hole under the points.  I have about a dozen of these turnouts , ten of which on a yard ladder are wired to be thrown in sequences, while two serve very well off a busy under-table turning loop, but with Tortoises. 2) Peco has a whole newer line of turnouts and flex track made to  NMRA standards.  I have not used any of this newer product, but judging from experience and reputation, I would presume pretty high quality.  Th Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts,   which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs. I may   still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being   "industrial quality" I'm now undecided. Could you or anyone else here give  some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved   turnouts? Personally, the deciding factor in the purchase of curved turnouts would be the radius that I desired in the rail size that I needed!  Although I have a lot of turnouts that I have curved myself (almost all altered Shinohara), and I have some custom-built special use curved #12s, I have no experience whatsoever with purchased curved turnouts, but I would not be afraid of them. Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near  "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using   snap-action switch machines (which I already have). Too, would anyone know if  Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track  -- than does Peco? Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having  2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as  well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco  curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see  their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but  not 32" radius), or did I miss something there? Any help would be  appreciated, thanks. Ray, a fact to be faced is that virtually every rail manufacturer producing rail of nominally the same code will produce that rail to its own distinct profile, the effect being that the rail joiners of one manufacturer may well not, and commonly do not,  fit another’s. The most notorious problem has been that joiners designed to fit Shinohara/Walthers rail with its very thick web, will not mate tightly at all with the popular M-E track with its very thin web.  VV, the M-E joiners will not join with the Shinohara without serious hazarding the safety of finger nails, fingers, and knuckles. There are ways around this, however, not excluding soldering, pinching joiners, etc. I did a chart on this mess some years ago, and if I can find it, I will post it.    I do not know which PECO turnouts that you are investigating, but I presume that newer ones made to NMRA standards.  If they are quoting two different radii on the same turnout, it probably means that the effective radius subtended by the  points on through the frog is the larger of the two, with the diverging track beyond the frog subtending a sharper radius beyond- actually the US common standard which in practical effect is a sort of transition curvature.  If you have John Armstrong’s classic Kalmbach book on track and layout design, he does a wonderful job of explaining this- much better than I.   I may have only just muddied the waters for you…. Denny     Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23432	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi Vic,   Thanks for taking the time to post a reply to my inquiries.  As for the Code #, I always thought that Code 100 rail was always .10" high, Code 83 rail was always .083" high, etc. -- without the height of the ties included in the measurements. If, as you appear to be saying, that the height of all manufacturers' rails are exactly the same, with absolutely no differences, then I'm assuming that all manufacturers' ties are identical in height.  I do have to wonder though, if you're saying that all manufacturers' rail profiles should be exactly the same, why then are some members here saying that every rail manufacturer produces rail to their own distinct profile and that some track -- like Shinohara as an example -- will not mate tightly with M-E track and that trying to use M-E rail joiners to connect M-E rail to Shinohara will result in a knuckle-bashing experience.  I wonder now, how similar M-E rail is to Atlas flex track rail and if I could expect a similar experience in using Atlas Rail Joiners to Shinohara (or Peco).  Your notation that Atlas Code 83 rail not fitting into a jig made for ME (Micro-Engineering?) Code 83 rail would appear to indicate these rails are quite different, so here I'm left wondering why they're described as being exactly the same.  It might just be the way I'm taking this in, but at least part of what you've said here seems contradictory, or at the very least I don't completely understand it.  BTW, I'm not intending to hand lay any of my rail or assembling my own turnouts, and so won't be using Micro Engineering rail.    Ray W.           In a message dated 11/26/2014 9:57:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray, Code 100 is .10" high, code 83 is .083" high, code 7- is .070" high, etc.  While there are absolutely differences in rail profile, web, head and foot, the height should be exactly the same.  There may be a few issues using rail joiners to connect one to the other, but I think they are minor.  I used Atlas Super Flex Code 83 in hidden areas, because it curves so nicely and I connected this to ME track.  I use ME track everywhere else and I use ME rail to make my own turnouts.  So far I have made over 30 turnouts and on the average, can turn one out (forgive the pun) about every 30 minutes, but that is another subject. However, I might add that if one plans on using Fast Tracks jigs to make turnouts, you must get the jig for the rail you use, because I can tell you that Atlas Code 83 rail does NOT fit into a jig made for ME code 83 rail. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC  One thing I forgot to question originally when mentioning rail profile is each manufacturer's possibly different tie height, if any such difference exists, and if it does then shimming must be the way to eliminate any problems there.     Ray W.     In a message dated 11/26/2014 12:24:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and   possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed. I've received   some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these  turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked   throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be   caused by this issue. I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts'   gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't   all have continuous H0 track gauge specs. Another issue I read was,   besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the   cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track,  which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth   rail joint. It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track   needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth  and kink-free transition. Would you care to comment on any of this to help  my decision? Ray, as has been already well noted, PECO makes two lines:  1) The original English line, largely made to NEM (European “NMRA”) standards, but also scaled against the British “OO” 4 mm/ft. rolling stock scale. This results in slightly overwide flange ways inside the frog guard rails.  IN real time, this causes few problems with good wheel sets and trucks that are fully square and in tram. However, like as already been reported, addition of 0.010” styrene shims on the flange side of the guard rails brings them close to the NMRA standards that most of US wheel sets have come to expect.  This is an easy fix inasmuch as the rails are also styrene.   The primary footprint differences are the much widened tie spacing, and that the diverging track, beginning with the point rails themselves assumes immediately a steady curvature radius (common prototype practice in Europe, but rare in US where point rails and frog are usually  straight and distance from point to frog can be pretty long). The advantage of this is that in both prototype and in model, turnouts of this type of nominally the same divergence number can take considerably less space (the prime reason why I chose them for my staging yard). Also, and perhaps this might be important in your case, these turnouts of very steady diverging route curvature can be dropped right into a curve of the same nominal curvature, while turnouts of the same number made to NMRA standards cannot.    These turnouts are super reliable, but the solenoid motors designed specifically for their use are designed to primarily be installed from below in a pretty big hole under the points.  I have about a dozen of these turnouts , ten of which on a yard ladder are wired to be thrown in sequences, while two serve very well off a busy under-table turning loop, but with Tortoises. 2) Peco has a whole newer line of turnouts and flex track made to  NMRA standards.  I have not used any of this newer product, but judging from experience and reputation, I would presume pretty high quality.  Th Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts,   which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs. I may   still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being   "industrial quality" I'm now undecided. Could you or anyone else here give  some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved   turnouts? Personally, the deciding factor in the purchase of curved turnouts would be the radius that I desired in the rail size that I needed!  Although I have a lot of turnouts that I have curved myself (almost all altered Shinohara), and I have some custom-built special use curved #12s, I have no experience whatsoever with purchased curved turnouts, but I would not be afraid of them. Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near  "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using   snap-action switch machines (which I already have). Too, would anyone know if  Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track  -- than does Peco? Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having  2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as  well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco  curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see  their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but  not 32" radius), or did I miss something there? Any help would be  appreciated, thanks. Ray, a fact to be faced is that virtually every rail manufacturer producing rail of nominally the same code will produce that rail to its own distinct profile, the effect being that the rail joiners of one manufacturer may well not, and commonly do not,  fit another’s. The most notorious problem has been that joiners designed to fit Shinohara/Walthers rail with its very thick web, will not mate tightly at all with the popular M-E track with its very thin web.  VV, the M-E joiners will not join with the Shinohara without serious hazarding the safety of finger nails, fingers, and knuckles. There are ways around this, however, not excluding soldering, pinching joiners, etc. I did a chart on this mess some years ago, and if I can find it, I will post it.    I do not know which PECO turnouts that you are investigating, but I presume that newer ones made to NMRA standards.  If they are quoting two different radii on the same turnout, it probably means that the effective radius subtended by the  points on through the frog is the larger of the two, with the diverging track beyond the frog subtending a sharper radius beyond- actually the US common standard which in practical effect is a sort of transition curvature.  If you have John Armstrong’s classic Kalmbach book on track and layout design, he does a wonderful job of explaining this- much better than I.   I may have only just muddied the waters for you…. Denny     Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23433	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi Ray, The Code 83, etc refers strictly to the height of the rail.  The profiles of almost all manufactures are quite different though.  For example, the web and foot of the Atlas Code 83 is wider than the foot of the ME Code 83.  If you are joining Atlas Code 83 rail to ME Code 83 rail, there would be a little bit of difference in the rail joiner and some "adjustment" must be done to join the two manufactures tracks.  I do join Atlas Code 83 to ME Code 83 as I said previously and what I do is to use Atlas rail joiners and solder the ME rail to the joiner to ensure proper alignment.  The tie thickness for both ME and Atlas appears to be the same and I find no shim necessary for this.  You mileage may vary on other makes, check them out first.  Finally getting back to the reason why Atlas RAIL will not fit into a Fast Tracks soldering jig meant for ME RAIL, the Atlas RAIL foot is wider than the ME RAIL foot. But, by and large, as long as you use the same code track on a layout, you should be ok, with minor "adjustments".   Actually there are many people who use different codes on the same layout.  For example, they use Code 83 on the main and Code 70 or even Code 55 on yards and sidings.  This just means you have to find ways to adjust the track to fit.  There are rail joiners available for Code 83 to Code 100, so maybe there are rail joiners for others?  If not, there are ways to connect the track, such as soldering to the connectors.  Obviously, the smaller Code track needs to be shimmed as well. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:34:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines   Hi Vic,   Thanks for taking the time to post a reply to my inquiries.  As for the Code #, I always thought that Code 100 rail was always .10" high, Code 83 rail was always .083" high, etc. -- without the height of the ties included in the measurements. If, as you appear to be saying, that the height of all manufacturers' rails are exactly the same, with absolutely no differences, then I'm assuming that all manufacturers' ties are identical in height.  I do have to wonder though, if you're saying that all manufacturers' rail profiles should be exactly the same, why then are some members here saying that every rail manufacturer produces rail to their own distinct profile and that some track -- like Shinohara as an example -- will not mate tightly with M-E track and that trying to use M-E rail joiners to connect M-E rail to Shinohara will result in a knuckle-bashing experience.  I wonder now, how similar M-E rail is to Atlas flex track rail and if I could expect a similar experience in using Atlas Rail Joiners to Shinohara (or Peco).  Your notation that Atlas Code 83 rail not fitting into a jig made for ME (Micro-Engineering?) Code 83 rail would appear to indicate these rails are quite different, so here I'm left wondering why they're described as being exactly the same.  It might just be the way I'm taking this in, but at least part of what you've said here seems contradictory, or at the very least I don't completely understand it.  BTW, I'm not intending to hand lay any of my rail or assembling my own turnouts, and so won't be using Micro Engineering rail.    Ray W.           In a message dated 11/26/2014 9:57:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray, Code 100 is .10" high, code 83 is .083" high, code 7- is .070" high, etc.  While there are absolutely differences in rail profile, web, head and foot, the height should be exactly the same.  There may be a few issues using rail joiners to connect one to the other, but I think they are minor.  I used Atlas Super Flex Code 83 in hidden areas, because it curves so nicely and I connected this to ME track.  I use ME track everywhere else and I use ME rail to make my own turnouts.  So far I have made over 30 turnouts and on the average, can turn one out (forgive the pun) about every 30 minutes, but that is another subject. However, I might add that if one plans on using Fast Tracks jigs to make turnouts, you must get the jig for the rail you use, because I can tell you that Atlas Code 83 rail does NOT fit into a jig made for ME code 83 rail. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC  One thing I forgot to question originally when mentioning rail profile is each manufacturer's possibly different tie height, if any such difference exists, and if it does then shimming must be the way to eliminate any problems there.     Ray W.     In a message dated 11/26/2014 12:24:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and   possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed. I've received   some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these  turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked   throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be   caused by this issue. I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts'   gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't   all have continuous H0 track gauge specs. Another issue I read was,   besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the   cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track,  which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth   rail joint. It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track   needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth  and kink-free transition. Would you care to comment on any of this to help  my decision? Ray, as has been already well noted, PECO makes two lines:  1) The original English line, largely made to NEM (European “NMRA”) standards, but also scaled against the British “OO” 4 mm/ft. rolling stock scale. This results in slightly overwide flange ways inside the frog guard rails.  IN real time, this causes few problems with good wheel sets and trucks that are fully square and in tram. However, like as already been reported, addition of 0.010” styrene shims on the flange side of the guard rails brings them close to the NMRA standards that most of US wheel sets have come to expect.  This is an easy fix inasmuch as the rails are also styrene.   The primary footprint differences are the much widened tie spacing, and that the diverging track, beginning with the point rails themselves assumes immediately a steady curvature radius (common prototype practice in Europe, but rare in US where point rails and frog are usually  straight and distance from point to frog can be pretty long). The advantage of this is that in both prototype and in model, turnouts of this type of nominally the same divergence number can take considerably less space (the prime reason why I chose them for my staging yard). Also, and perhaps this might be important in your case, these turnouts of very steady diverging route curvature can be dropped right into a curve of the same nominal curvature, while turnouts of the same number made to NMRA standards cannot.    These turnouts are super reliable, but the solenoid motors designed specifically for their use are designed to primarily be installed from below in a pretty big hole under the points.  I have about a dozen of these turnouts , ten of which on a yard ladder are wired to be thrown in sequences, while two serve very well off a busy under-table turning loop, but with Tortoises. 2) Peco has a whole newer line of turnouts and flex track made to  NMRA standards.  I have not used any of this newer product, but judging from experience and reputation, I would presume pretty high quality.  Th Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts,   which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs. I may   still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being   "industrial quality" I'm now undecided. Could you or anyone else here give  some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved   turnouts? Personally, the deciding factor in the purchase of curved turnouts would be the radius that I desired in the rail size that I needed!  Although I have a lot of turnouts that I have curved myself (almost all altered Shinohara), and I have some custom-built special use curved #12s, I have no experience whatsoever with purchased curved turnouts, but I would not be afraid of them. Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near  "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using   snap-action switch machines (which I already have). Too, would anyone know if  Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track  -- than does Peco? Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having  2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as  well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco  curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see  their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but  not 32" radius), or did I miss something there? Any help would be  appreciated, thanks. Ray, a fact to be faced is that virtually every rail manufacturer producing rail of nominally the same code will produce that rail to its own distinct profile, the effect being that the rail joiners of one manufacturer may well not, and commonly do not,  fit another’s. The most notorious problem has been that joiners designed to fit Shinohara/Walthers rail with its very thick web, will not mate tightly at all with the popular M-E track with its very thin web.  VV, the M-E joiners will not join with the Shinohara without serious hazarding the safety of finger nails, fingers, and knuckles. There are ways around this, however, not excluding soldering, pinching joiners, etc. I did a chart on this mess some years ago, and if I can find it, I will post it.    I do not know which PECO turnouts that you are investigating, but I presume that newer ones made to NMRA standards.  If they are quoting two different radii on the same turnout, it probably means that the effective radius subtended by the  points on through the frog is the larger of the two, with the diverging track beyond the frog subtending a sharper radius beyond- actually the US common standard which in practical effect is a sort of transition curvature.  If you have John Armstrong’s classic Kalmbach book on track and layout design, he does a wonderful job of explaining this- much better than I.   I may have only just muddied the waters for you…. Denny     Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23434	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Ray, I am with you -in spades- in not wanting to ever again get under the layout, but in desperation I still do on occasion when my young energetic Intel EE engineer modeler friend is not readily available to do it for me!  However, I only do it with considerable advance preparation as to just how I am going to get back out, and…actually again upright! To recap and make more clear what I previously wrote:  the US/Canadian standard turnout has -sequentially- straight switch point rails, a curved closure rail only the diverging route;  straight flange ways both ways  through the frog; and then two curved rails on the diverging route.  In this regard,  In the middle of the night last night, I recall that John Armstrong called the overall radius expected of any given number turnout  -e.g. #6- to be the ”substitution radius”, i.e. the radius of the circle of track in which that turnout might drop in best fashion  (he substitution radius of a #6 turnout is an astounding 56”, and the the radius of the curved closure rail is 43”!).   The PECO European-model turnout has a steady curvature of given radius on the diverging route through all four of the same elements, point rail, closure rail, frog, and diverging track beyond.  One can simply take this turnout of defined radius and drop it right into a track circle of the same radius. Because of the usual flange thickness of the Varney and other similar older locomotives, my judgement is that these rugged PECOs would handle these engines without difficulty and without having to use shims.   The M-E is the Micro-Engineering bendable track (“flex”  ha-ha!) made in St. Louis in code 70, 83, and I believe still in code 100.  I have recently been told that it no long makes its code 55 track.  They also make a limited line of very good code 70 and 83 #6 turnouts.  It is a superb track in appearance but takes patience to bend without kinking or worse. Their joiners will not join with any thing else.  IMHO, its appearance is the most scale-like of all the competing products. I would not be afraid of using 83 or 100 Atlas or Walthers or Peco with each other, just being patient in making certain that the joiners are doing their jobs. A few swipes of a small file can usually take care of any small rail head discrepancies.  I have successfully used PECO code 75 turnouts with both M-E and Shinohara code 70.    By the way,  the outstanding influence of John Armstrong’s writings in the building of our good hobby should be recognized and memorialized by all.  It is amazing to me how very solid and very useful his information on the fundamentals of track planning still is today. The recent references to HO Monthly have brought forward some thoughts of my own from this long-forgotten but remarkable publication- but enough for now! Denny   Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23435	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi Vic,   Many thanks again -- this clarifies things a lot.  I suspected the cross-sections of different manufacturers' rails were different, from what others here alluded to.  Just wasn't really sure.  I see now that, depending on the manufacturer, different rails can be joined by making "adjustments" to one degree or another, even if it requires soldering more loosely fitting rail joiners in place on other rails (but not to solder the adjoining rail to the joiner -- to allow for expansion while leaving a minute gap).  No pain, no gain.  Yes, I've understood for some time, with various articles I've read, that some modelers transition there yard tracks and branch lines to smaller code rails.  I'm not looking to do that, even though it's more prototypical, as I want to keep things more simple in the construction.  I'm intending to just paint the sides of yard track rails more heavily and darker to make them look smaller in hopes the illusion will at least give different size appearances.  Thanks again,   Ray W.    In a message dated 11/26/2014 2:03:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray, The Code 83, etc refers strictly to the height of the rail.  The profiles of almost all manufactures are quite different though.  For example, the web and foot of the Atlas Code 83 is wider than the foot of the ME Code 83.  If you are joining Atlas Code 83 rail to ME Code 83 rail, there would be a little bit of difference in the rail joiner and some "adjustment" must be done to join the two manufactures tracks.  I do join Atlas Code 83 to ME Code 83 as I said previously and what I do is to use Atlas rail joiners and solder the ME rail to the joiner to ensure proper alignment.  The tie thickness for both ME and Atlas appears to be the same and I find no shim necessary for this.  You mileage may vary on other makes, check them out first.  Finally getting back to the reason why Atlas RAIL will not fit into a Fast Tracks soldering jig meant for ME RAIL, the Atlas RAIL foot is wider than the ME RAIL foot. But, by and large, as long as you use the same code track on a layout, you should be ok, with minor "adjustments".   Actually there are many people who use different codes on the same layout.  For example, they use Code 83 on the main and Code 70 or even Code 55 on yards and sidings.  This just means you have to find ways to adjust the track to fit.  There are rail joiners available for Code 83 to Code 100, so maybe there are rail joiners for others?  If not, there are ways to connect the track, such as soldering to the connectors.  Obviously, the smaller Code track needs to be shimmed as well. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:34:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines   Hi Vic,   Thanks for taking the time to post a reply to my inquiries.  As for the Code #, I always thought that Code 100 rail was always .10" high, Code 83 rail was always .083" high, etc. -- without the height of the ties included in the measurements. If, as you appear to be saying, that the height of all manufacturers' rails are exactly the same, with absolutely no differences, then I'm assuming that all manufacturers' ties are identical in height.  I do have to wonder though, if you're saying that all manufacturers' rail profiles should be exactly the same, why then are some members here saying that every rail manufacturer produces rail to their own distinct profile and that some track -- like Shinohara as an example -- will not mate tightly with M-E track and that trying to use M-E rail joiners to connect M-E rail to Shinohara will result in a knuckle-bashing experience.  I wonder now, how similar M-E rail is to Atlas flex track rail and if I could expect a similar experience in using Atlas Rail Joiners to Shinohara (or Peco).  Your notation that Atlas Code 83 rail not fitting into a jig made for ME (Micro-Engineering?) Code 83 rail would appear to indicate these rails are quite different, so here I'm left wondering why they're described as being exactly the same.  It might just be the way I'm taking this in, but at least part of what you've said here seems contradictory, or at the very least I don't completely understand it.  BTW, I'm not intending to hand lay any of my rail or assembling my own turnouts, and so won't be using Micro Engineering rail.    Ray W.           In a message dated 11/26/2014 9:57:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray, Code 100 is .10" high, code 83 is .083" high, code 7- is .070" high, etc.  While there are absolutely differences in rail profile, web, head and foot, the height should be exactly the same.  There may be a few issues using rail joiners to connect one to the other, but I think they are minor.  I used Atlas Super Flex Code 83 in hidden areas, because it curves so nicely and I connected this to ME track.  I use ME track everywhere else and I use ME rail to make my own turnouts.  So far I have made over 30 turnouts and on the average, can turn one out (forgive the pun) about every 30 minutes, but that is another subject. However, I might add that if one plans on using Fast Tracks jigs to make turnouts, you must get the jig for the rail you use, because I can tell you that Atlas Code 83 rail does NOT fit into a jig made for ME code 83 rail. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC  One thing I forgot to question originally when mentioning rail profile is each manufacturer's possibly different tie height, if any such difference exists, and if it does then shimming must be the way to eliminate any problems there.     Ray W.     In a message dated 11/26/2014 12:24:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and   possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed. I've received   some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these  turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked   throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be   caused by this issue. I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts'   gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't   all have continuous H0 track gauge specs. Another issue I read was,   besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the   cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track,  which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth   rail joint. It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track   needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth  and kink-free transition. Would you care to comment on any of this to help  my decision? Ray, as has been already well noted, PECO makes two lines:  1) The original English line, largely made to NEM (European “NMRA”) standards, but also scaled against the British “OO” 4 mm/ft. rolling stock scale. This results in slightly overwide flange ways inside the frog guard rails.  IN real time, this causes few problems with good wheel sets and trucks that are fully square and in tram. However, like as already been reported, addition of 0.010” styrene shims on the flange side of the guard rails brings them close to the NMRA standards that most of US wheel sets have come to expect.  This is an easy fix inasmuch as the rails are also styrene.   The primary footprint differences are the much widened tie spacing, and that the diverging track, beginning with the point rails themselves assumes immediately a steady curvature radius (common prototype practice in Europe, but rare in US where point rails and frog are usually  straight and distance from point to frog can be pretty long). The advantage of this is that in both prototype and in model, turnouts of this type of nominally the same divergence number can take considerably less space (the prime reason why I chose them for my staging yard). Also, and perhaps this might be important in your case, these turnouts of very steady diverging route curvature can be dropped right into a curve of the same nominal curvature, while turnouts of the same number made to NMRA standards cannot.    These turnouts are super reliable, but the solenoid motors designed specifically for their use are designed to primarily be installed from below in a pretty big hole under the points.  I have about a dozen of these turnouts , ten of which on a yard ladder are wired to be thrown in sequences, while two serve very well off a busy under-table turning loop, but with Tortoises. 2) Peco has a whole newer line of turnouts and flex track made to  NMRA standards.  I have not used any of this newer product, but judging from experience and reputation, I would presume pretty high quality.  Th Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts,   which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs. I may   still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being   "industrial quality" I'm now undecided. Could you or anyone else here give  some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved   turnouts? Personally, the deciding factor in the purchase of curved turnouts would be the radius that I desired in the rail size that I needed!  Although I have a lot of turnouts that I have curved myself (almost all altered Shinohara), and I have some custom-built special use curved #12s, I have no experience whatsoever with purchased curved turnouts, but I would not be afraid of them. Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near  "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using   snap-action switch machines (which I already have). Too, would anyone know if  Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track  -- than does Peco? Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having  2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as  well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco  curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see  their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but  not 32" radius), or did I miss something there? Any help would be  appreciated, thanks. Ray, a fact to be faced is that virtually every rail manufacturer producing rail of nominally the same code will produce that rail to its own distinct profile, the effect being that the rail joiners of one manufacturer may well not, and commonly do not,  fit another’s. The most notorious problem has been that joiners designed to fit Shinohara/Walthers rail with its very thick web, will not mate tightly at all with the popular M-E track with its very thin web.  VV, the M-E joiners will not join with the Shinohara without serious hazarding the safety of finger nails, fingers, and knuckles. There are ways around this, however, not excluding soldering, pinching joiners, etc. I did a chart on this mess some years ago, and if I can find it, I will post it.    I do not know which PECO turnouts that you are investigating, but I presume that newer ones made to NMRA standards.  If they are quoting two different radii on the same turnout, it probably means that the effective radius subtended by the  points on through the frog is the larger of the two, with the diverging track beyond the frog subtending a sharper radius beyond- actually the US common standard which in practical effect is a sort of transition curvature.  If you have John Armstrong’s classic Kalmbach book on track and layout design, he does a wonderful job of explaining this- much better than I.   I may have only just muddied the waters for you…. Denny     Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23436	From: trainliker	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

 A trick to have a really strong joint between dissimilar rail sizes is to go ahead and solidly solder them both to a rail joiner.  Rail joiners can be placed elsewhere where there is no rail size transition if there is need for expansion control.   The idea of painting the rail darker is a good one.  Might work.  Also it can help to use different and less ballast, dirtier ballast, and the like.   By the way, real railroads also had a need to join dissimilar rail sizes.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines   Hi Vic,   Many thanks again -- this clarifies things a lot.  I suspected the cross-sections of different manufacturers' rails were different, from what others here alluded to.  Just wasn't really sure.  I see now that, depending on the manufacturer, different rails can be joined by making "adjustments" to one degree or another, even if it requires soldering more loosely fitting rail joiners in place on other rails (but not to solder the adjoining rail to the joiner -- to allow for expansion while leaving a minute gap).  No pain, no gain.  Yes, I've understood for some time, with various articles I've read, that some modelers transition there yard tracks and branch lines to smaller code rails.  I'm not looking to do that, even though it's more prototypical, as I want to keep things more simple in the construction.  I'm intending to just paint the sides of yard track rails more heavily and darker to make them look smaller in hopes the illusion will at least give different size appearances.  Thanks again,   Ray W.    In a message dated 11/26/2014 2:03:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray, The Code 83, etc refers strictly to the height of the rail.  The profiles of almost all manufactures are quite different though.  For example, the web and foot of the Atlas Code 83 is wider than the foot of the ME Code 83.  If you are joining Atlas Code 83 rail to ME Code 83 rail, there would be a little bit of difference in the rail joiner and some "adjustment" must be done to join the two manufactures tracks.  I do join Atlas Code 83 to ME Code 83 as I said previously and what I do is to use Atlas rail joiners and solder the ME rail to the joiner to ensure proper alignment.  The tie thickness for both ME and Atlas appears to be the same and I find no shim necessary for this.  You mileage may vary on other makes, check them out first.  Finally getting back to the reason why Atlas RAIL will not fit into a Fast Tracks soldering jig meant for ME RAIL, the Atlas RAIL foot is wider than the ME RAIL foot. But, by and large, as long as you use the same code track on a layout, you should be ok, with minor "adjustments".   Actually there are many people who use different codes on the same layout.  For example, they use Code 83 on the main and Code 70 or even Code 55 on yards and sidings.  This just means you have to find ways to adjust the track to fit.  There are rail joiners available for Code 83 to Code 100, so maybe there are rail joiners for others?  If not, there are ways to connect the track, such as soldering to the connectors.  Obviously, the smaller Code track needs to be shimmed as well. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:34:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines   Hi Vic,   Thanks for taking the time to post a reply to my inquiries.  As for the Code #, I always thought that Code 100 rail was always .10" high, Code 83 rail was always .083" high, etc. -- without the height of the ties included in the measurements. If, as you appear to be saying, that the height of all manufacturers' rails are exactly the same, with absolutely no differences, then I'm assuming that all manufacturers' ties are identical in height.  I do have to wonder though, if you're saying that all manufacturers' rail profiles should be exactly the same, why then are some members here saying that every rail manufacturer produces rail to their own distinct profile and that some track -- like Shinohara as an example -- will not mate tightly with M-E track and that trying to use M-E rail joiners to connect M-E rail to Shinohara will result in a knuckle-bashing experience.  I wonder now, how similar M-E rail is to Atlas flex track rail and if I could expect a similar experience in using Atlas Rail Joiners to Shinohara (or Peco).  Your notation that Atlas Code 83 rail not fitting into a jig made for ME (Micro-Engineering?) Code 83 rail would appear to indicate these rails are quite different, so here I'm left wondering why they're described as being exactly the same.  It might just be the way I'm taking this in, but at least part of what you've said here seems contradictory, or at the very least I don't completely understand it.  BTW, I'm not intending to hand lay any of my rail or assembling my own turnouts, and so won't be using Micro Engineering rail.    Ray W.           In a message dated 11/26/2014 9:57:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray, Code 100 is .10" high, code 83 is .083" high, code 7- is .070" high, etc.  While there are absolutely differences in rail profile, web, head and foot, the height should be exactly the same.  There may be a few issues using rail joiners to connect one to the other, but I think they are minor.  I used Atlas Super Flex Code 83 in hidden areas, because it curves so nicely and I connected this to ME track.  I use ME track everywhere else and I use ME rail to make my own turnouts.  So far I have made over 30 turnouts and on the average, can turn one out (forgive the pun) about every 30 minutes, but that is another subject. However, I might add that if one plans on using Fast Tracks jigs to make turnouts, you must get the jig for the rail you use, because I can tell you that Atlas Code 83 rail does NOT fit into a jig made for ME code 83 rail. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC  One thing I forgot to question originally when mentioning rail profile is each manufacturer's possibly different tie height, if any such difference exists, and if it does then shimming must be the way to eliminate any problems there.     Ray W.     In a message dated 11/26/2014 12:24:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and   possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed. I've received   some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these  turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked   throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be   caused by this issue. I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts'   gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't   all have continuous H0 track gauge specs. Another issue I read was,   besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the   cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track,  which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth   rail joint. It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track   needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth  and kink-free transition. Would you care to comment on any of this to help  my decision? Ray, as has been already well noted, PECO makes two lines:  1) The original English line, largely made to NEM (European “NMRA”) standards, but also scaled against the British “OO” 4 mm/ft. rolling stock scale. This results in slightly overwide flange ways inside the frog guard rails.  IN real time, this causes few problems with good wheel sets and trucks that are fully square and in tram. However, like as already been reported, addition of 0.010” styrene shims on the flange side of the guard rails brings them close to the NMRA standards that most of US wheel sets have come to expect.  This is an easy fix inasmuch as the rails are also styrene.   The primary footprint differences are the much widened tie spacing, and that the diverging track, beginning with the point rails themselves assumes immediately a steady curvature radius (common prototype practice in Europe, but rare in US where point rails and frog are usually  straight and distance from point to frog can be pretty long). The advantage of this is that in both prototype and in model, turnouts of this type of nominally the same divergence number can take considerably less space (the prime reason why I chose them for my staging yard). Also, and perhaps this might be important in your case, these turnouts of very steady diverging route curvature can be dropped right into a curve of the same nominal curvature, while turnouts of the same number made to NMRA standards cannot.    These turnouts are super reliable, but the solenoid motors designed specifically for their use are designed to primarily be installed from below in a pretty big hole under the points.  I have about a dozen of these turnouts , ten of which on a yard ladder are wired to be thrown in sequences, while two serve very well off a busy under-table turning loop, but with Tortoises. 2) Peco has a whole newer line of turnouts and flex track made to  NMRA standards.  I have not used any of this newer product, but judging from experience and reputation, I would presume pretty high quality.  Th Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts,   which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs. I may   still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being   "industrial quality" I'm now undecided. Could you or anyone else here give  some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved   turnouts? Personally, the deciding factor in the purchase of curved turnouts would be the radius that I desired in the rail size that I needed!  Although I have a lot of turnouts that I have curved myself (almost all altered Shinohara), and I have some custom-built special use curved #12s, I have no experience whatsoever with purchased curved turnouts, but I would not be afraid of them. Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near  "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using   snap-action switch machines (which I already have). Too, would anyone know if  Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track  -- than does Peco? Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having  2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as  well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco  curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see  their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but  not 32" radius), or did I miss something there? Any help would be  appreciated, thanks. Ray, a fact to be faced is that virtually every rail manufacturer producing rail of nominally the same code will produce that rail to its own distinct profile, the effect being that the rail joiners of one manufacturer may well not, and commonly do not,  fit another’s. The most notorious problem has been that joiners designed to fit Shinohara/Walthers rail with its very thick web, will not mate tightly at all with the popular M-E track with its very thin web.  VV, the M-E joiners will not join with the Shinohara without serious hazarding the safety of finger nails, fingers, and knuckles. There are ways around this, however, not excluding soldering, pinching joiners, etc. I did a chart on this mess some years ago, and if I can find it, I will post it.    I do not know which PECO turnouts that you are investigating, but I presume that newer ones made to NMRA standards.  If they are quoting two different radii on the same turnout, it probably means that the effective radius subtended by the  points on through the frog is the larger of the two, with the diverging track beyond the frog subtending a sharper radius beyond- actually the US common standard which in practical effect is a sort of transition curvature.  If you have John Armstrong’s classic Kalmbach book on track and layout design, he does a wonderful job of explaining this- much better than I.   I may have only just muddied the waters for you…. Denny     Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23437	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Denny,   In efforts not to pass up on recognition of all contributors to this thread and my questions, I'm pleased to again be able to thank you for this additional clarification.  While I don't want to belabor this thread, nor turn it into one that focuses only on my queries, I appreciate your recap in clarifying the points of these matters.  I also hope others may gain from some of this.  I would not have thought that a # 6 turnout would have a radius of 56" nor would I have even thought that a #10 turnout would be that wide.  I note that Micro-Engineering track is a quality product and much preferred by some modelers, but I'm not intending on using it.  Good to know that I can interchange Atlas, Peco and Shinohara (of the same Code) without much concern and thanks for reminding me what a small file can do here in ensuring these transitions.  I received an assurance off-line by another modeler that Atlas rail joiners can be used to join Atlas & Peco track.  BTW, he also mentioned the benefit of John Armstrong's "Track Planning for Realistic Operation," Kalmback book, just as you suggested.  I do have it and will have to pull it back out for a more intensive read.  I have a number of these Kalmback books, but usually just give them a quick scan before putting them aside, being satisfied that I at least have them for reference.  The time has to to refer to this one.   Regards,   Ray W.   In a message dated 11/26/2014 5:22:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray, I am with you -in spades- in not wanting to ever again get under the layout, but in desperation I still do on occasion when my young energetic Intel EE engineer modeler friend is not readily available to do it for me!  However, I only do it with considerable advance preparation as to just how I am going to get back out, and…actually again upright! To recap and make more clear what I previously wrote:  the US/Canadian standard turnout has -sequentially- straight switch point rails, a curved closure rail only the diverging route;  straight flange ways both ways  through the frog; and then two curved rails on the diverging route.  In this regard,  In the middle of the night last night, I recall that John Armstrong called the overall radius expected of any given number turnout  -e.g. #6- to be the ”substitution radius”, i.e. the radius of the circle of track in which that turnout might drop in best fashion  (he substitution radius of a #6 turnout is an astounding 56”, and the the radius of the curved closure rail is 43”!).   The PECO European-model turnout has a steady curvature of given radius on the diverging route through all four of the same elements, point rail, closure rail, frog, and diverging track beyond.  One can simply take this turnout of defined radius and drop it right into a track circle of the same radius. Because of the usual flange thickness of the Varney and other similar older locomotives, my judgement is that these rugged PECOs would handle these engines without difficulty and without having to use shims.   The M-E is the Micro-Engineering bendable track (“flex”  ha-ha!) made in St. Louis in code 70, 83, and I believe still in code 100.  I have recently been told that it no long makes its code 55 track.  They also make a limited line of very good code 70 and 83 #6 turnouts.  It is a superb track in appearance but takes patience to bend without kinking or worse. Their joiners will not join with any thing else.  IMHO, its appearance is the most scale-like of all the competing products. I would not be afraid of using 83 or 100 Atlas or Walthers or Peco with each other, just being patient in making certain that the joiners are doing their jobs. A few swipes of a small file can usually take care of any small rail head discrepancies.  I have successfully used PECO code 75 turnouts with both M-E and Shinohara code 70.    By the way,  the outstanding influence of John Armstrong’s writings in the building of our good hobby should be recognized and memorialized by all.  It is amazing to me how very solid and very useful his information on the fundamentals of track planning still is today. The recent references to HO Monthly have brought forward some thoughts of my own from this long-forgotten but remarkable publication- but enough for now! Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23438	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi Chuck,   Good point and something I didn't think of.  Spaced (gapped) rail butts can always be used elsewhere, but the major concern here with slightly dissimilar rail joining is to make a smooth transition.  I can see where soldering of both rails at those joints would have the most benefit.  In discussing these joints with other modelers off line, I'm also reminded of staggering the joints so as not to have them both in the same location.  Rail expansion in my train room is not too much of a concern as the temperature is kept fairly uniform throughout the year, but it can be a real problem on club layouts when not allowed for, so I figured it can only help towards preventing any rail kinks.  Thanks for your tips on modeling yard track, they're well worth considering and I'll be sure to use them.  While this thread on track laying, using different rail, may not seem exactly "vintage," the points brought out with it go a long way in being able to operate these vintage trains without issue.   Best,   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 11/26/2014 7:04:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:    A trick to have a really strong joint between dissimilar rail sizes is to go ahead and solidly solder them both to a rail joiner.  Rail joiners can be placed elsewhere where there is no rail size transition if there is need for expansion control.   The idea of painting the rail darker is a good one.  Might work.  Also it can help to use different and less ballast, dirtier ballast, and the like.   By the way, real railroads also had a need to join dissimilar rail sizes.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: eriepacific@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines   Hi Vic,   Many thanks again -- this clarifies things a lot.  I suspected the cross-sections of different manufacturers' rails were different, from what others here alluded to.  Just wasn't really sure.  I see now that, depending on the manufacturer, different rails can be joined by making "adjustments" to one degree or another, even if it requires soldering more loosely fitting rail joiners in place on other rails (but not to solder the adjoining rail to the joiner -- to allow for expansion while leaving a minute gap).  No pain, no gain.  Yes, I've understood for some time, with various articles I've read, that some modelers transition there yard tracks and branch lines to smaller code rails.  I'm not looking to do that, even though it's more prototypical, as I want to keep things more simple in the construction.  I'm intending to just paint the sides of yard track rails more heavily and darker to make them look smaller in hopes the illusion will at least give different size appearances.  Thanks again,   Ray W.    In a message dated 11/26/2014 2:03:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray, The Code 83, etc refers strictly to the height of the rail.  The profiles of almost all manufactures are quite different though.  For example, the web and foot of the Atlas Code 83 is wider than the foot of the ME Code 83.  If you are joining Atlas Code 83 rail to ME Code 83 rail, there would be a little bit of difference in the rail joiner and some "adjustment" must be done to join the two manufactures tracks.  I do join Atlas Code 83 to ME Code 83 as I said previously and what I do is to use Atlas rail joiners and solder the ME rail to the joiner to ensure proper alignment.  The tie thickness for both ME and Atlas appears to be the same and I find no shim necessary for this.  You mileage may vary on other makes, check them out first.  Finally getting back to the reason why Atlas RAIL will not fit into a Fast Tracks soldering jig meant for ME RAIL, the Atlas RAIL foot is wider than the ME RAIL foot. But, by and large, as long as you use the same code track on a layout, you should be ok, with minor "adjustments".   Actually there are many people who use different codes on the same layout.  For example, they use Code 83 on the main and Code 70 or even Code 55 on yards and sidings.  This just means you have to find ways to adjust the track to fit.  There are rail joiners available for Code 83 to Code 100, so maybe there are rail joiners for others?  If not, there are ways to connect the track, such as soldering to the connectors.  Obviously, the smaller Code track needs to be shimmed as well. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:34:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines   Hi Vic,   Thanks for taking the time to post a reply to my inquiries.  As for the Code #, I always thought that Code 100 rail was always .10" high, Code 83 rail was always .083" high, etc. -- without the height of the ties included in the measurements. If, as you appear to be saying, that the height of all manufacturers' rails are exactly the same, with absolutely no differences, then I'm assuming that all manufacturers' ties are identical in height.  I do have to wonder though, if you're saying that all manufacturers' rail profiles should be exactly the same, why then are some members here saying that every rail manufacturer produces rail to their own distinct profile and that some track -- like Shinohara as an example -- will not mate tightly with M-E track and that trying to use M-E rail joiners to connect M-E rail to Shinohara will result in a knuckle-bashing experience.  I wonder now, how similar M-E rail is to Atlas flex track rail and if I could expect a similar experience in using Atlas Rail Joiners to Shinohara (or Peco).  Your notation that Atlas Code 83 rail not fitting into a jig made for ME (Micro-Engineering?) Code 83 rail would appear to indicate these rails are quite different, so here I'm left wondering why they're described as being exactly the same.  It might just be the way I'm taking this in, but at least part of what you've said here seems contradictory, or at the very least I don't completely understand it.  BTW, I'm not intending to hand lay any of my rail or assembling my own turnouts, and so won't be using Micro Engineering rail.    Ray W.           In a message dated 11/26/2014 9:57:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray, Code 100 is .10" high, code 83 is .083" high, code 7- is .070" high, etc.  While there are absolutely differences in rail profile, web, head and foot, the height should be exactly the same.  There may be a few issues using rail joiners to connect one to the other, but I think they are minor.  I used Atlas Super Flex Code 83 in hidden areas, because it curves so nicely and I connected this to ME track.  I use ME track everywhere else and I use ME rail to make my own turnouts.  So far I have made over 30 turnouts and on the average, can turn one out (forgive the pun) about every 30 minutes, but that is another subject. However, I might add that if one plans on using Fast Tracks jigs to make turnouts, you must get the jig for the rail you use, because I can tell you that Atlas Code 83 rail does NOT fit into a jig made for ME code 83 rail. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC  One thing I forgot to question originally when mentioning rail profile is each manufacturer's possibly different tie height, if any such difference exists, and if it does then shimming must be the way to eliminate any problems there.     Ray W.     In a message dated 11/26/2014 12:24:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray Wetzel wrote: I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and   possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed. I've received   some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these  turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be checked   throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could be   caused by this issue. I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts'   gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they don't   all have continuous H0 track gauge specs. Another issue I read was,   besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that the   cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas flex track,  which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a smooth   rail joint. It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track   needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a smooth  and kink-free transition. Would you care to comment on any of this to help  my decision? Ray, as has been already well noted, PECO makes two lines:  1) The original English line, largely made to NEM (European “NMRA”) standards, but also scaled against the British “OO” 4 mm/ft. rolling stock scale. This results in slightly overwide flange ways inside the frog guard rails.  IN real time, this causes few problems with good wheel sets and trucks that are fully square and in tram. However, like as already been reported, addition of 0.010” styrene shims on the flange side of the guard rails brings them close to the NMRA standards that most of US wheel sets have come to expect.  This is an easy fix inasmuch as the rails are also styrene.   The primary footprint differences are the much widened tie spacing, and that the diverging track, beginning with the point rails themselves assumes immediately a steady curvature radius (common prototype practice in Europe, but rare in US where point rails and frog are usually  straight and distance from point to frog can be pretty long). The advantage of this is that in both prototype and in model, turnouts of this type of nominally the same divergence number can take considerably less space (the prime reason why I chose them for my staging yard). Also, and perhaps this might be important in your case, these turnouts of very steady diverging route curvature can be dropped right into a curve of the same nominal curvature, while turnouts of the same number made to NMRA standards cannot.    These turnouts are super reliable, but the solenoid motors designed specifically for their use are designed to primarily be installed from below in a pretty big hole under the points.  I have about a dozen of these turnouts , ten of which on a yard ladder are wired to be thrown in sequences, while two serve very well off a busy under-table turning loop, but with Tortoises. 2) Peco has a whole newer line of turnouts and flex track made to  NMRA standards.  I have not used any of this newer product, but judging from experience and reputation, I would presume pretty high quality.  Th Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts,   which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs. I may   still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco being   "industrial quality" I'm now undecided. Could you or anyone else here give  some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved   turnouts? Personally, the deciding factor in the purchase of curved turnouts would be the radius that I desired in the rail size that I needed!  Although I have a lot of turnouts that I have curved myself (almost all altered Shinohara), and I have some custom-built special use curved #12s, I have no experience whatsoever with purchased curved turnouts, but I would not be afraid of them. Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near  "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, using   snap-action switch machines (which I already have). Too, would anyone know if  Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex track  -- than does Peco? Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having  2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts as  well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) Peco  curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I see  their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout (but  not 32" radius), or did I miss something there? Any help would be  appreciated, thanks. Ray, a fact to be faced is that virtually every rail manufacturer producing rail of nominally the same code will produce that rail to its own distinct profile, the effect being that the rail joiners of one manufacturer may well not, and commonly do not,  fit another’s. The most notorious problem has been that joiners designed to fit Shinohara/Walthers rail with its very thick web, will not mate tightly at all with the popular M-E track with its very thin web.  VV, the M-E joiners will not join with the Shinohara without serious hazarding the safety of finger nails, fingers, and knuckles. There are ways around this, however, not excluding soldering, pinching joiners, etc. I did a chart on this mess some years ago, and if I can find it, I will post it.    I do not know which PECO turnouts that you are investigating, but I presume that newer ones made to NMRA standards.  If they are quoting two different radii on the same turnout, it probably means that the effective radius subtended by the  points on through the frog is the larger of the two, with the diverging track beyond the frog subtending a sharper radius beyond- actually the US common standard which in practical effect is a sort of transition curvature.  If you have John Armstrong’s classic Kalmbach book on track and layout design, he does a wonderful job of explaining this- much better than I.   I may have only just muddied the waters for you…. Denny     Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23439	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/26/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi Denny, I won't argue with you that ME track is a bit more difficult to work with and it does take some patience to properly curve it without kinking or damaging it, but it looks very very nice.  However, you ain't lived until you tried the pre-weathered ME track.  A friend, who really wanted to use ME track, once called me up and asked me to help him lay the track, because he just was getting nowhere.  I went over and I could not believe it.  He had already destroyed two sections and did not want to damage a third one.  Immediately, I noticed it was not going to be able to be made to curve easily.  It was like trying to bend already laid track!  After a few minutes, I noticed the sides were painted or weathered.  My friend had no idea what he purchased, he thought he was buying plain old ME Code 83.  He had bought the ME Pre-weatherd track.  Eventually we found that we actually could make it curve.  It just took a LOT of patience and curve it VERY slowly in VERY small increments.  Wearing heavy gloves helps, unless you don't mind getting your hands all bloody and sore.  Kind of like breaking up rose bushes bare handed.  I am serious, I would never use that stuff unless it was for straight runs only.  :o) Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC The M-E is the Micro-Engineering bendable track (“flex”  ha-ha!) made in St. Louis in code 70, 83, and I believe still in code 100.  I have recently been told that it no long makes its code 55 track.  They also make a limited line of very good code 70 and 83 #6 turnouts.  It is a superb track in appearance but takes patience to bend without kinking or worse. Their joiners will not join with any thing else.  IMHO, its appearance is the most scale-like of all the competing products. Denny   Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23440	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Hi All, Bank in the old days of jointed rail, the prototype railroads always staggered rail joint except when not possible as occurred at turnouts and signal points to name a couple. The inside rail on curves was always shortened by an inch or so to match the degree of the curve. I follow much of this practice on my track. Joel Holmes > Hi Chuck, > > Good point and something I didn't think of. Spaced (gapped) rail butts > can always be used elsewhere, but the major concern here with slightly > dissimilar rail joining is to make a smooth transition. I can see where > soldering of both rails at those joints would have the most benefit. In > discussing > these joints with other modelers off line, I'm also reminded of > staggering > the joints so as not to have them both in the same location. Rail > expansion in my train room is not too much of a concern as the > temperature is kept > fairly uniform throughout the year, but it can be a real problem on club > layouts when not allowed for, so I figured it can only help towards > preventing any rail kinks. Thanks for your tips on modeling yard track, > they're > well worth considering and I'll be sure to use them. While this thread > on > track laying, using different rail, may not seem exactly "vintage," the > points brought out with it go a long way in being able to operate these > vintage > trains without issue. > > Best, > > Ray Wetzel > > > > In a message dated 11/26/2014 7:04:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > >  > A trick to have a really strong joint between dissimilar rail sizes is to > go ahead and solidly solder them both to a rail joiner. Rail joiners can > be placed elsewhere where there is no rail size transition if there is > need > for expansion control. > > The idea of painting the rail darker is a good one. Might work. Also it > can help to use different and less ballast, dirtier ballast, and the > like. > > By the way, real railroads also had a need to join dissimilar rail sizes. > > Chuck Kinzer > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: _eriepacific@... [vintageHO]_ (mailto:eriepacific@... > [vintageHO]) > To: _vintageHO@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com) > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 3:50 PM > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines > > > > Hi Vic, > > Many thanks again -- this clarifies things a lot. I suspected the > cross-sections of different manufacturers' rails were different, from what > others > here alluded to. Just wasn't really sure. I see now that, depending on > the manufacturer, different rails can be joined by making "adjustments" > to > one degree or another, even if it requires soldering more loosely fitting > rail joiners in place on other rails (but not to solder the adjoining > rail to > the joiner -- to allow for expansion while leaving a minute gap). No > pain, > no gain. Yes, I've understood for some time, with various articles I've > read, that some modelers transition there yard tracks and branch lines to > smaller code rails. I'm not looking to do that, even though it's more > prototypical, as I want to keep things more simple in the construction. > I'm > intending to just paint the sides of yard track rails more heavily and > darker > to make them look smaller in hopes the illusion will at least give > different > size appearances. Thanks again, > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 11/26/2014 2:03:50 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > Hi Ray, > The Code 83, etc refers strictly to the height of the rail. The profiles > of almost all manufactures are quite different though. For example, the > web and foot of the Atlas Code 83 is wider than the foot of the ME Code > 83. > If you are joining Atlas Code 83 rail to ME Code 83 rail, there would be > a > little bit of difference in the rail joiner and some "adjustment" must be > done to join the two manufactures tracks. I do join Atlas Code 83 to ME > Code 83 as I said previously and what I do is to use Atlas rail joiners > and > solder the ME rail to the joiner to ensure proper alignment. The tie > thickness for both ME and Atlas appears to be the same and I find no shim > necessary for this. You mileage may vary on other makes, check them out > first. > Finally getting back to the reason why Atlas RAIL will not fit into a > Fast > Tracks soldering jig meant for ME RAIL, the Atlas RAIL foot is wider than > the ME RAIL foot. > But, by and large, as long as you use the same code track on a layout, > you > should be ok, with minor "adjustments". Actually there are many people > who use different codes on the same layout. For example, they use Code > 83 > on the main and Code 70 or even Code 55 on yards and sidings. This just > means you have to find ways to adjust the track to fit. There are rail > joiners available for Code 83 to Code 100, so maybe there are rail > joiners for > others? If not, there are ways to connect the track, such as soldering > to > the connectors. Obviously, the smaller Code track needs to be shimmed as > well. > Regards, > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC > > > ____________________________________ > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 12:34:40 -0500 > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines > > > > > Hi Vic, > > Thanks for taking the time to post a reply to my inquiries. As for the > Code #, I always thought that Code 100 rail was always .10" high, Code 83 > rail was always .083" high, etc. -- without the height of the ties > included in > the measurements. If, as you appear to be saying, that the height of all > manufacturers' rails are exactly the same, with absolutely no > differences, > then I'm assuming that all manufacturers' ties are identical in height. > I > do have to wonder though, if you're saying that all manufacturers' rail > profiles should be exactly the same, why then are some members here > saying that > every rail manufacturer produces rail to their own distinct profile and > that some track -- like Shinohara as an example -- will not mate tightly > with > M-E track and that trying to use M-E rail joiners to connect M-E rail to > Shinohara will result in a knuckle-bashing experience. I wonder now, how > similar M-E rail is to Atlas flex track rail and if I could expect a > similar > experience in using Atlas Rail Joiners to Shinohara (or Peco). Your > notation that Atlas Code 83 rail not fitting into a jig made for ME > (Micro-Engineering?) Code 83 rail would appear to indicate these rails > are quite > different, so here I'm left wondering why they're described as being > exactly the > same. It might just be the way I'm taking this in, but at least part of > what you've said here seems contradictory, or at the very least I don't > completely understand it. BTW, I'm not intending to hand lay any of my > rail or > assembling my own turnouts, and so won't be using Micro Engineering rail. > > Ray W. > > > > > In a message dated 11/26/2014 9:57:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > Hi Ray, > Code 100 is .10" high, code 83 is .083" high, code 7- is .070" high, etc. > While there are absolutely differences in rail profile, web, head and > foot, the height should be exactly the same. There may be a few issues > using > rail joiners to connect one to the other, but I think they are minor. I > used Atlas Super Flex Code 83 in hidden areas, because it curves so > nicely and > I connected this to ME track. I use ME track everywhere else and I use > ME > rail to make my own turnouts. So far I have made over 30 turnouts and > on > the average, can turn one out (forgive the pun) about every 30 minutes, > but that is another subject. > However, I might add that if one plans on using Fast Tracks jigs to make > turnouts, you must get the jig for the rail you use, because I can tell > you > that Atlas Code 83 rail does NOT fit into a jig made for ME code 83 rail. > Regards, > Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC > > > ____________________________________ > One thing I forgot to question originally when mentioning rail profile > is > each manufacturer's possibly different tie height, if any such difference > exists, and if it does then shimming must be the way to eliminate any > problems there. > > > > > > Ray W. > > > > In a message dated 11/26/2014 12:24:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Ray Wetzel wrote: > > > > I've been looking to expand the layout -- with Atlas flex track -- and > possibly using Peco curved turnouts this time where needed. I've > received > > some strong recommendations for using Peco, but in reading up on these > turnouts, I see they are not NMRA compliant and may need the gauge to be > checked > throughout their length to eliminate any possible derailments which could > be > caused by this issue. I don't want to need to fuss with new turnouts' > gauge in having to ensure derailment-free operation through them if they > don't > all have continuous H0 track gauge specs. Another issue I read was, > besides being told that Peco's curved turnouts can be "finicky," that > the > > cross-section of a Peco rail is slightly different from that of Atlas > flex > track, > which the use of only rail joiners just won't help in making for a > smooth > > rail joint. It appears that the use of a piece of Atlas sectional track > needs to be used between these turnouts and the flex track to make a > smooth > and kink-free transition. Would you care to comment on any of this to > help > my decision? > > > > Ray, as has been already well noted, PECO makes two lines: 1) The > original English line, largely made to NEM (European “NMRA”) > standards, but also > scaled against the British “OO” 4 mm/ft. rolling stock scale. This > results > in slightly overwide flange ways inside the frog guard rails. IN real > time, this causes few problems with good wheel sets and trucks that are > fully > square and in tram. However, like as already been reported, addition of > 0.010” styrene shims on the flange side of the guard rails brings them > close > to the NMRA standards that most of US wheel sets have come to expect. > This > is an easy fix inasmuch as the rails are also styrene. > > > The primary footprint differences are the much widened tie spacing, and > that the diverging track, beginning with the point rails themselves > assumes > immediately a steady curvature radius (common prototype practice in > Europe, > but rare in US where point rails and frog are usually straight and > distance from point to frog can be pretty long). The advantage of this is > that in > both prototype and in model, turnouts of this type of nominally the same > divergence number can take considerably less space (the prime reason why > I > chose them for my staging yard). Also, and perhaps this might be > important in > your case, these turnouts of very steady diverging route curvature can > be > dropped right into a curve of the same nominal curvature, while turnouts > of the same number made to NMRA standards cannot. > > > These turnouts are super reliable, but the solenoid motors designed > specifically for their use are designed to primarily be installed from > below in a > pretty big hole under the points. I have about a dozen of these turnouts > , ten of which on a yard ladder are wired to be thrown in sequences, > while > two serve very well off a busy under-table turning loop, but with > Tortoises. 2) Peco has a whole newer line of turnouts and flex track made > to NMRA > standards. I have not used any of this newer product, but judging from > experience and reputation, I would presume pretty high quality. Th > > > > > > > Originally, I had decided on using Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts, > which were being manufactured well before Peco came out with theirs. I > may > still use the Walthers/Shinohara turnouts, but with comments like Peco > being > "industrial quality" I'm now undecided. Could you or anyone else here > give > some kind of a comparison between these two manufacturers' curved > turnouts? > > > Personally, the deciding factor in the purchase of curved turnouts would > be the radius that I desired in the rail size that I needed! Although I > have a lot of turnouts that I have curved myself (almost all altered > Shinohara), and I have some custom-built special use curved #12s, I have > no > experience whatsoever with purchased curved turnouts, but I would not be > afraid of > them. > > > Would like to know for one thing, if Walthers/Shinohara is near > "industrial quality" and if it would hold up nearly as well as Peco, > using > snap-action switch machines (which I already have). Too, would anyone > know > if > Walthers/Shinohara rail has a more similar cross-section -- to Atlas flex > track > -- than does Peco? Also, while Walthers/Shinohara curved turnouts having > 2" differences between radii (I'm looking in install 28" & 30" turnouts > as > well as 30" and 32" turnouts), from what I gather (and I may be wrong) > Peco > curved turnouts are offered only in 4" differences between radii -- I > see > their 30" radius combined as having a 34" radius in the same turnout > (but > not 32" radius), or did I miss something there? Any help would be > appreciated, thanks. > > > Ray, a fact to be faced is that virtually every rail manufacturer > producing rail of nominally the same code will produce that rail to its > own > distinct profile, the effect being that the rail joiners of one > manufacturer may > well not, and commonly do not, fit another’s. The most notorious > problem has > been that joiners designed to fit Shinohara/Walthers rail with its very > thick web, will not mate tightly at all with the popular M-E track with > its > very thin web. VV, the M-E joiners will not join with the Shinohara > without serious hazarding the safety of finger nails, fingers, and > knuckles. > There are ways around this, however, not excluding soldering, pinching > joiners, > etc. > > > I did a chart on this mess some years ago, and if I can find it, I will > post it. > > > I do not know which PECO turnouts that you are investigating, but I > presume that newer ones made to NMRA standards. If they are quoting two > different radii on the same turnout, it probably means that the effective > radius > subtended by the points on through the frog is the larger of the two, > with > the diverging track beyond the frog subtending a sharper radius beyond- > actually the US common standard which in practical effect is a sort of > transition curvature. If you have John Armstrong’s classic Kalmbach > book on track > and layout design, he does a wonderful job of explaining this- much > better > than I. > > > I may have only just muddied the waters for you…. > > > Denny > > > > > Denny S. Anspach MD > Sacramento > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23441	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Vic reports on the difficulties in bending MicroEngineering weathered track.  Yes, and YES again.  All (all) of my M-E track is pre-weathered,and to avoid skinning all my knuckles, I have learned to curve them in three ways:  1) Repeated snapping of  a tongue blade or similar along the inside curve ends of the ties (the principal being akin to holding a tongue blade or flap on the spokes of a spinning bicycle wheel). Like magic, the track will begin to curve toward you. I learned this personally from Tony Koester about 15 years ago, and it works; 2) Creating curvature by forcefully sliding a plastic track track tool back and forth along the rail heads   (MLR Mfg. Co., Escondido, CA))  ; and 3) Using ancient Ribbonrail (still available, Elizabethtown, PA) ) thick sheet metal (steel and/or aluminum) track gauges of the desired radius that fit between the rails to also promote smooth bending. The  latter gauges are about 5” long, and have been available in all radii from about 15” to 48”. These gauges have been lifted to  my pantheon of “most useful tools” when it comes to track laying. Track tools similar or identical to MLR are sold by MicroMark.  They are NOT identified by brand name, and in this respect ,  I am always leary that they are off shore copies made without permission (as I learned from NWSL verbatim that MicroMark did with all of NWSL’s tools).     Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23442	From: johnhutnick	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

I use the Peco code 100, some insulfrog and some electrofrog.  If a turnout has its original joiners, I keep those on and join to Atlas.  Otherwise I use a mix of Peco and Atlas joiners, and squeeze them with pliers if needed.  Peco track to Peco is always their joiners.  For a small layout, I have an assortment of curved and straight sectional pieces.  This way, I can pick up up track and modify without having to trim rail ends each time I move a curve.  I had to do a lot of fiddling to fit 3 circuits of track in a small space.  Go to www.trainaidsa.com and try some of their various tiny black woodscrews, which I now nearly always use on my track.  I have not found any similar product.  If you use switch machines on basic Peco code 100, try the Peco PL-11 point motors that snap on to their TO's above the table.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23443	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.

By fortunate accident, I recently came into possession of an intact volume I of HO Monthly  (1948), which has made for some interesting reading inasmuch as the principal contributors were George Stock, and Alan Lake Rice (aka “Eric LaNal”), probably the two modelers from the late twenties through the thirties that really introduced HO scale to modeler-consumers as a practicable (read less expensive and less expansive) alternative to the then prevalent O scale.  In these early publications they talk quite freely about all the difficulties and make-do jury-rigging  that they had to do for so many years, all of the parts and pieces coming from Europe, primarily Germany (ubiquitous Bing 0--4-0 locomotives,purchased by mail in Munich).  Reading what these two have to say begins to clear up in my own mind just WHO started American HO production, and it was these two (with Howell Day probably not far behind).    George Stock (later being very well known for his prolific production of custom-built steam and electric locomotives, all O gauge as far as I know) built in his Philadelphia shop several very early GG-1 pattern HO locomotives, using parted-out Bing motor mechanisms, the only ones then  available. Ditto Alan Rice Lake. There is no evidence with which I have been yet aware -either that I can remember, or of which Stock and Lake  inferred, directly or indirectly- that either  produced a commercial locomotive kit prior to Frank Taylor’s “Taylor-Built” kit of the Milwaukee Road’s 4-6-4 Baltic in 1935. The latter would seem to be the continuing, -if unlikely-  holder of pride-of-place as the first commercial HO locomotive kit!. This Baltic kit gained some legs when it  announced in the Dec 1935 Model Roader  that it was purchased by Bill Walthers; and peculiarly, the instructions for construction were subsequently published verbatim in the next month’s  January 1936 Model Craftsman. ASFIK, Howell Day produced the first HO car kits under his HOwen label about the same time, but I am less certain about that. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD 710 Coronado Blvd. Sacramento, CA 95864 916-712-9445 Please make note of my new eMail address.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23444	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 11/27/2014
Subject: Re: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.

This is a coincidence.... As I toggled to my email after watching an episode of anime [ Mawaru Penguindrum (Dub) via Kissanime.com ], I was also going through a stack of old magazines, and was just reading an article on the old open trolleys...... HO Monthly, page 18, July - 1949......... protective bagging and scanning as I go backwards through the stack and am almost to the first year.[I got lucky on eBay around Summer] In my High School sophomore year I borrowed a stack of old model railroading magazines from a friendly teacher at school and built a very interesting square, backwoods water tank from one of the articles. The model was lost over the years and until I got this stack of HO monthly, I didn't know where I got that project from. Finally I stumbled upon it. Its from about 1952 in HO monthly and is an E.L.Moore article. I've scanned it and looks like I'll build it again. I keep finding all sorts of great projects in the old 'stack'. Sure would be nice to have the like in print today. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Nov 27, 2014, at 7:37 PM, Anspach Denny danspachmd@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > By fortunate accident, I recently came into possession of an intact volume I of HO Monthly (1948), which has made for some interesting reading inasmuch as the principal contributors were George Stock, and Alan Lake Rice (aka “Eric LaNal”), probably the two modelers from the late twenties through the thirties that really introduced HO scale to modeler-consumers as a practicable (read less expensive and less expansive) alternative to the then prevalent O scale. In these early publications they talk quite freely about all the difficulties and make-do jury-rigging that they had to do for so many years, all of the parts and pieces coming from Europe, primarily Germany (ubiquitous Bing 0--4-0 locomotives,purchased by mail in Munich). Reading what these two have to say begins to clear up in my own mind just WHO started American HO production, and it was these two (with Howell Day probably not far behind). > > George Stock (later being very well known for his prolific production of custom-built steam and electric locomotives, all O gauge as far as I know) built in his Philadelphia shop several very early GG-1 pattern HO locomotives, using parted-out Bing motor mechanisms, the only ones then available. Ditto Alan Rice Lake. There is no evidence with which I have been yet aware -either that I can remember, or of which Stock and Lake inferred, directly or indirectly- that either produced a commercial locomotive kit prior to Frank Taylor’s “Taylor-Built” kit of the Milwaukee Road’s 4-6-4 Baltic in 1935. The latter would seem to be the continuing, -if unlikely- holder of pride-of-place as the first commercial HO locomotive kit!. > > This Baltic kit gained some legs when it announced in the Dec 1935 Model Roader that it was purchased by Bill Walthers; and peculiarly, the instructions for construction were subsequently published verbatim in the next month’s January 1936 Model Craftsman. > > ASFIK, Howell Day produced the first HO car kits under his HOwen label about the same time, but I am less certain about that. > > Denny

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23445	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.

Denny,   Nice find, with your 1948 Volume I issue of HO Monthly.  Somewhat different than either MR or RMC, they were very informative.  The earliest issue I have is April 1949 and always found them to be very enjoyable.  That your issue includes articles by George Stock and Alan Lake Rice  should at least shed additional light on these two early H0 pioneers and their methods of modeling, pre-War.     With MR starting in 1935, it gets difficult in determining exactly who produced the first H0 loco kits, or even the first H0 rolling stock kits, before this time unless earlier catalogs are available and very few are.  Having Howell Day's 1937-38 Model Railroad Equipment and Supplies catalog in hand, I can offer that he was producing a full line of his H. Owen freight and heavyweight passenger cars at least by then, but in picking up an early issue (October 1936) issue of MR out my library, I notice that Varney, Mantua and even George Stock was already producing freight car kits by this date.  I would have referred to my bound 1935 copy of MR but could not lay my hand on it immediately.          While I don't know how much later you're referring to George Stock being very well known for his production of custom-built steam and electric locomotives -- "all O gauge," from your recollections, in adding to George Stock, he did in fact also produce a good number of custom-built H0 steam and electric locomotives.  You may want to check out a fairly comprehensive piece I did on him going back at least 5 or 6 years (or more), which can be found in the files.  As part of the reference material, I used his H0 catalog -- I believe dated 1948.  I thought I recall reading that Jim Heckard may even have one of Stock's H0 gauge  GG1's.     Ray Wetzel           In a message dated 11/27/2014 8:37:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   By fortunate accident, I recently came into possession of an intact volume I of HO Monthly  (1948), which has made for some interesting reading inasmuch as the principal contributors were George Stock, and Alan Lake Rice (aka “Eric LaNal”), probably the two modelers from the late twenties through the thirties that really introduced HO scale to modeler-consumers as a practicable (read less expensive and less expansive) alternative to the then prevalent O scale.  In these early publications they talk quite freely about all the difficulties and make-do jury-rigging  that they had to do for so many years, all of the parts and pieces coming from Europe, primarily Germany (ubiquitous Bing 0--4-0 locomotives,purchased by mail in Munich).  Reading what these two have to say begins to clear up in my own mind just WHO started American HO production, and it was these two (with Howell Day probably not far behind).    George Stock (later being very well known for his prolific production of custom-built steam and electric locomotives, all O gauge as far as I know) built in his Philadelphia shop several very early GG-1 pattern HO locomotives, using parted-out Bing motor mechanisms, the only ones then  available. Ditto Alan Rice Lake. There is no evidence with which I have been yet aware -either that I can remember, or of which Stock and Lake  inferred, directly or indirectly- that either  produced a commercial locomotive kit prior to Frank Taylor’s “Taylor-Built” kit of the Milwaukee Road’s 4-6-4 Baltic in 1935. The latter would seem to be the continuing, -if unlikely-  holder of pride-of-place as the first commercial HO locomotive kit!. This Baltic kit gained some legs when it  announced in the Dec 1935 Model Roader  that it was purchased by Bill Walthers; and peculiarly, the instructions for construction were subsequently published verbatim in the next month’s  January 1936 Model Craftsman. ASFIK, Howell Day produced the first HO car kits under his HOwen label about the same time, but I am less certain about that. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD 710 Coronado Blvd. Sacramento, CA 95864 916-712-9445 Please make note of my new eMail address.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23446	From: nvrr49@yahoo.com	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat

Attachments : DSC_0009-23446.JPG with an Authenticast car, the second car in the blog entry. Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Center Flat, WP Gon                Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Ce... See, I do build things that are not 3d printed. OSTX Safe Loading Pipe Gondola View on nvrr49.blogspot.com Preview by Yahoo     Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23447	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

Ray, Yes, he uses the NMRA compliant ones, I believe Code 87, and uses flex track. He uses no rail joiners, and has a bus wire running under the layout to electrically connect each 3 foot section via a soldered lead running down under the track. Using spikes to align the rail ends, they generally stay pretty well aligned. It's a basement layout, floor is insulated and covered by plywood (makes it easy to fasten benchwork, just screw into the floor). The biggest problem we have recently is that some of the Chinese produced laminated plywood tends to grow and shrink sometimes, so we will get a short across sections of the layout that are not supposed to be connected. Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23448	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat [1 Attachment]

Very nice Kent,  I presume you used John Hagen's decals?  I did this a couple of years ago, see the following. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017 I also used the Walthers undecorated USRA gondola.  I have another in case I ever want to repeat the project, because I found the gondola on eBay for a very reasonable price. Just recently, I did one of these in the Varney size gondola.  I had picked up a few gondolas made using the Varney molds.  I removed the Michigan Central lettering, kitbashed the gondola into one like you picture here and using John Hagen's decals I have a "Varney knockoff"  :o)  You know, your Life Like looks exactly mine.  I bet mine is a Life Like as well.  I suspect Life Like bought Varney's molds?  Maybe someone here can clarify. This was a fun project for me as I am sure it was fun for you as well.  Nice job. Regards, Vic B. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC   To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 14:25:31 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below] with an Authenticast car, the second car in the blog entry. Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Center Flat, WP Gon                Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Ce... See, I do build things that are not 3d printed. OSTX Safe Loading Pipe Gondola View on nvrr49.blogspot.com Preview by Yahoo     Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23449	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat [1 Attachment]

Well, Kent did a nice job on his OSTUCO car BUT he credits the decals to Jerry Glow.   The decals are from OBS-CALS, were drawn, printed and shipped by myself and Kent’s name is on the mailing list of OSTUCO customers.   I actually feel proud that Kent feels my decals are well done enough to be confused with Jerry’s as he had a very good reputation for quality work.   Kent also states that the sets is out of production, which would be correct as Jerry has left the business. However I have not and as long as I retain the artwork the set is always available.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 8:26 AM To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat [1 Attachment]     [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below] with an Authenticast car, the second car in the blog entry.   Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Center Flat, WP Gon                Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Ce... See, I do build things that are not 3d printed. OSTX Safe Loading Pipe Gondola View on nvrr49.blogspot.com Preview by Yahoo       Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23450	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat

Thank Vic for your post about the OSTUCO car and decals.   In one of Kent’s earlier blogs (the one referenced to above the photo he says the shorter car is a Varney. But I think Life Like did produce several of Varney’s model under their own name after acquiring the line. Certainly the most recognizable product is the “Dockside.”     Now there is a story where the model exceeded to prototype in numbers and impact on the hobby as literally thousands of the models have been produced by Varney, Life Like, Bowser and Rivarossi (AHM) in HO plus untold numbers in just about every other scale except Z. It was done in TT, N, S and O for certain and I think I have seen it in one of the G variants but I could be wrong on that. It may have been done in OO but I’m not sure of that either but the timing would have been right as all  of the others except N came out between the end of WWII and the mid-fifties or so.   Anyway thanks again for your post.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 10:17 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat     Very nice Kent,  I presume you used John Hagen's decals?  I did this a couple of years ago, see the following. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017 I also used the Walthers undecorated USRA gondola.  I have another in case I ever want to repeat the project, because I found the gondola on eBay for a very reasonable price. Just recently, I did one of these in the Varney size gondola.  I had picked up a few gondolas made using the Varney molds.  I removed the Michigan Central lettering, kitbashed the gondola into one like you picture here and using John Hagen's decals I have a "Varney knockoff"  :o)  You know, your Life Like looks exactly mine.  I bet mine is a Life Like as well.  I suspect Life Like bought Varney's molds?  Maybe someone here can clarify. This was a fun project for me as I am sure it was fun for you as well.  Nice job. Regards, Vic B. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC   To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 14:25:31 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below] with an Authenticast car, the second car in the blog entry.   Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Center Flat, WP Gon                Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Ce... See, I do build things that are not 3d printed. OSTX Safe Loading Pipe Gondola View on nvrr49.blogspot.com Preview by Yahoo       Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23451	From: trainliker	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat - now Docksider

USA Trains makes what they call a "Docksider" in G gauge (1:29 scale in this case) but it is not THE Docksider.  It is a 6 wheel tank engine, however.   http://www.usatrains.com/usatrainsdockside.html   But there has recently been a live steam one that IS the B&O style for "G" track by Accucraft (also 1:29 scale).  It is not on their site, probably because it is sold out.  In my opinion this is a pretty decent model.  This shows it:   http://rldhobbies.com/bando0-4-0docksideunletteredblackelectricpreorderonly-2-2.aspx   I don't think I have ever seen one in a riding scale, such as 1" or 1 1/2", but I suspect it is more likely than not that it has been done.  And if so, probably based on a commercial 0-4-0 kit by buying just the running gear section and scratchbuilding the rest.   We all probably remember what I think was the advertising photo with it resting on a cigarette pack - back when smoking abounded in TV shows and movies and kids coloring books even showed "dad" smoking.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 9:45 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat   Thank Vic for your post about the OSTUCO car and decals. In one of Kent’s earlier blogs (the one referenced to above the photo he says the shorter car is a Varney. But I think Life Like did produce several of Varney’s model under their own name after acquiring the line. Certainly the most recognizable product is the “Dockside.”   Now there is a story where the model exceeded to prototype in numbers and impact on the hobby as literally thousands of the models have been produced by Varney, Life Like, Bowser and Rivarossi (AHM) in HO plus untold numbers in just about every other scale except Z. It was done in TT, N, S and O for certain and I think I have seen it in one of the G variants but I could be wrong on that. It may have been done in OO but I’m not sure of that either but the timing would have been right as all  of the others except N came out between the end of WWII and the mid-fifties or so. Anyway thanks again for your post. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 10:17 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat   Very nice Kent,  I presume you used John Hagen's decals?  I did this a couple of years ago, see the following. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017 I also used the Walthers undecorated USRA gondola.  I have another in case I ever want to repeat the project, because I found the gondola on eBay for a very reasonable price. Just recently, I did one of these in the Varney size gondola.  I had picked up a few gondolas made using the Varney molds.  I removed the Michigan Central lettering, kitbashed the gondola into one like you picture here and using John Hagen's decals I have a "Varney knockoff"  :o)  You know, your Life Like looks exactly mine.  I bet mine is a Life Like as well.  I suspect Life Like bought Varney's molds?  Maybe someone here can clarify. This was a fun project for me as I am sure it was fun for you as well.  Nice job. Regards, Vic B. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC   To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 14:25:31 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below] with an Authenticast car, the second car in the blog entry. Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Center Flat, WP Gon  Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Ce... See, I do build things that are not 3d printed. OSTX Safe Loading Pipe Gondola View on nvrr49.blogspot.com Preview by Yahoo Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23452	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: NJ Internation or Tenshodo switch machines

John,   Before this thread goes on to other matters or the contributors forget about what they've posted regarding this subject, I'd like to ask you just a bit more about Peco turnouts, not be very familiar with them.  Concerning their insulfrog and electrofrog designed turnouts, I believe I've read that there's an advantage of using one over the other when operating in DC.  There may not be any advantage with using DCC, but I'm not sure.  I'm still using DC and can't foresee changing at this time.  I might add, I'm not planning any reverse loops.  Could you please expand on this if you would?        Ray W.     In a message dated 11/27/2014 5:42:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I use the Peco code 100, some insulfrog and some electrofrog.  If a turnout has its original joiners, I keep those on and join to Atlas.  Otherwise I use a mix of Peco and Atlas joiners, and squeeze them with pliers if needed.  Peco track to Peco is always their joiners.  For a small layout, I have an assortment of curved and straight sectional pieces.  This way, I can pick up up track and modify without having to trim rail ends each time I move a curve.  I had to do a lot of fiddling to fit 3 circuits of track in a small space.  Go to www.trainaidsa.com and try some of their various tiny black woodscrews, which I now nearly always use on my track.  I have not found any similar product.  If you use switch machines on basic Peco code 100, try the Peco PL-11 point motors that snap on to their TO's above the table.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23453	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/28/2014
Subject: Re: updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat - now Docksider

Chuck,   That Accucraft Dockside is the loco in question. A tad pricey but then …….   I see they also made the tender version.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 1:02 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat - now Docksider     USA Trains makes what they call a "Docksider" in G gauge (1:29 scale in this case) but it is not THE Docksider.  It is a 6 wheel tank engine, however.   http://www.usatrains.com/usatrainsdockside.html   But there has recently been a live steam one that IS the B&O style for "G" track by Accucraft (also 1:29 scale).  It is not on their site, probably because it is sold out.  In my opinion this is a pretty decent model.  This shows it:   http://rldhobbies.com/bando0-4-0docksideunletteredblackelectricpreorderonly-2-2.aspx   I don't think I have ever seen one in a riding scale, such as 1" or 1 1/2", but I suspect it is more likely than not that it has been done.  And if so, probably based on a commercial 0-4-0 kit by buying just the running gear section and scratchbuilding the rest.   We all probably remember what I think was the advertising photo with it resting on a cigarette pack - back when smoking abounded in TV shows and movies and kids coloring books even showed "dad" smoking.   Chuck Kinzer     ----- Original Message ----- From: 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO] To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 9:45 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat     Thank Vic for your post about the OSTUCO car and decals. In one of Kent’s earlier blogs (the one referenced to above the photo he says the shorter car is a Varney. But I think Life Like did produce several of Varney’s model under their own name after acquiring the line. Certainly the most recognizable product is the “Dockside.”   Now there is a story where the model exceeded to prototype in numbers and impact on the hobby as literally thousands of the models have been produced by Varney, Life Like, Bowser and Rivarossi (AHM) in HO plus untold numbers in just about every other scale except Z. It was done in TT, N, S and O for certain and I think I have seen it in one of the G variants but I could be wrong on that. It may have been done in OO but I’m not sure of that either but the timing would have been right as all  of the others except N came out between the end of WWII and the mid-fifties or so. Anyway thanks again for your post. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, November 28, 2014 10:17 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat   Very nice Kent,  I presume you used John Hagen's decals?  I did this a couple of years ago, see the following. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/photos/albums/801906017 I also used the Walthers undecorated USRA gondola.  I have another in case I ever want to repeat the project, because I found the gondola on eBay for a very reasonable price. Just recently, I did one of these in the Varney size gondola.  I had picked up a few gondolas made using the Varney molds.  I removed the Michigan Central lettering, kitbashed the gondola into one like you picture here and using John Hagen's decals I have a "Varney knockoff"  :o)  You know, your Life Like looks exactly mine.  I bet mine is a Life Like as well.  I suspect Life Like bought Varney's molds?  Maybe someone here can clarify. This was a fun project for me as I am sure it was fun for you as well.  Nice job. Regards, Vic B. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC   To: vintageho@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2014 14:25:31 +0000 Subject: [vintageHO] updated blog, Authenticast Depressed center flat [1 Attachment]   [Attachment(s) from nvrr49@... included below] with an Authenticast car, the second car in the blog entry. Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Center Flat, WP Gon  Nirvana Valley Model Railroad: Tube Gon, Depressed Ce... See, I do build things that are not 3d printed. OSTX Safe Loading Pipe Gondola View on nvrr49.blogspot.com Preview by Yahoo Kent Hurley Kansas City, MO Check out my blog at : http://nvrr49.blogspot.com/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23454	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Vintage HO collection

Folks,   I was asked this weekend to take a look at a collection at a friend’s widow was looking to disposition. All HO, and spanning the period from about 1938 to the early 1990’s, it’s a mish mash of incredibly interesting stuff. It covers two generations of railroaders, there stuff in there I haven’t seen since I was a kid (Megow and Ideal structures kits for example)   As is usually the case, there is a lot of garden variety AHM and Life Like cars in boxes and some cheap diesels, but what really caught my fancy was a large carton full of locos dating back mostly to the 50’s and early 60’s. A few Varney steam loco kits, untouched (2-8-0, 4-6-0 and the like), a couple of cast F3 kits, also untouched, and a few Aristo/HOTCO locos, including a Pacific, small camelback, the HOTCO Jersey Certral 4-6-0 camelback, AHM 2-8-8-2 and Berkshire, and a 2-6-2 made by a company called Champ (I could use some info on this one, never heard of them – a die cast like the Aristo stuff), beat up Walthers HH660. Probably a good dozen or so locos.   Also a MESS of earlier cars in various states of disrepair, cartons of early cardboard and some plastic structures, track, etc. Freight, passenger (a string of unbuilt Walthers standard pass cars kits, a string of unbuilt OK streamliners, etc).   Was quite a tour through the history books.   I gave her an idea of where the value was and told her what to do with the 40 years of Model Railroaders that he had meticulously organized in binders (chuck).   If anyone is interested in buying the whole thing, she wants it gone, I gave her an idea of what it would bring at auction, if you want a quick deep dive into the history of HO, this is a very large lot, probably 20 large cartons full of stuff.   Let me know if any are interested and I can arrange a meeting. And since  I’m a casual collector (and already sitting on a lot of the same kind of stuff), I am not interested in buying it, and decided not to try and cherry pick.   Jim

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23455	From: jbark76	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage HO collection

What area of the country are we talking about?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23456	From: Doug Harris	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage HO collection

Attachments : 02.JPG 01.JPG On 30/11/14 8:02, 'Jim Waterman' Watermaj@... [vintageHO] wrote: and a > 2-6-2 made by a company called Champ (I could use some info on this > one, never heard of them – a die cast like the Aristo stuff), Hi Jim.. In my collection is a boxed diecast Champ HO 2-6-2 boxed loco with plastic tender. It's in CB&Q livery, number on the tender is 1701. There is no maker's name on the box and only 'Made in Japan' on the loco and 'Japan' on the tender. Also I have a loco and tender numbered 1017 (not 1701 as above) with a Pennsylvania tender, and another loco and tender unnamed and unnumbered. I have another tender only, named 'Hudson and Pacific' which is a fictional road used by Sakai of Japan on some of their O-gauge stock also - sometimes mis-spelled as 'Hutton and Pacific'. These misspelled items are sought after by collectors such as myself. I'm moderator of the yahoo Sakai and Seki Toy Train Group - search for 'Sakai' or 'Seki' on yahoo groups. Anyone with an interest in these enigmatic Toy Trains - (Seki prewar and Sakai postwar) is welcome to join us. Seki did not re-appear after WW2. > Group Description: Forum for those interested in the history, > manufacture, original sale, collection, repair, restoration, display > and operation of these toy trains, including other related Japanese > makes such as Bryant, Stronlite, Oxil, Maraklin (not Marklin!) in > Australia, TER(Tokyo Endo Railway), Asahi Scientific Toy Railway, > KTM/Katsumi, Stalwart, Champ, and possibly others that we do not not > even know about yet! Seki prewar O-gauge tinplate trains should not > be confused with present-day N-scale models.. Therefore (he said sagely), I have ID'ed your loco as made by Sakai, possibly for general sale, but possibly for sale in a Department Store group. There is another line labeled 'Stalwart', and 'Made expressly for Macy Associates in Japan', with an F-unit outline diesel loco liveried 'Hudson Pacific Railway' a gondola, boxcar and caboose labeled 'Hudson & Pacific'. This again is therefore almost certainly made by Sakai, but there is only 'Japan' stamped on all items, but not on the gondola. This is probably much more info than you needed, but considering this is the "Vintage HO group, hopefully of interest to some members.. I'm always in the market for items such as the above.. I'll try to attach a couple of pictures of my 'Stalwart" set - don't know if this group accepts attachments or not.. The box contents pic is a bit rough - it's the original ebay photograph.. ATB from New Zealand. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23457	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Train show find

I picked up these at the train show Sat. I'm assuming that they're European as the "Frico" is German. It has the same couplers as the baggage car. The other two use different couplers. The coach in particular is interesting. It has swiveling couplers with what appears to be a spring rod running the length of the car between them. One end also has a piece that seems to fold under the car as part of the coupler. If interested, I'll dig out a better camera to get a close up of it. I can't find any mfg marks on them. Any ideas? Ken A Starcher

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23458	From: Ken Starcher	Date: 11/29/2014
Subject: Train show find

Attachments : FILE0047.JPG I picked up these at the train show Sat. I'm assuming that they're European as the "Frico" is German. It has the same couplers as the baggage car. The other two use different couplers. The coach in particular is interesting. It has swiveling couplers with what appears to be a spring rod running the length of the car between them. One end also has a piece that seems to fold under the car as part of the coupler. If interested, I'll dig out a better camera to get a close up of it. I can't find any mfg marks on them. Any ideas? Sorry, hit send before the attachment finished loading. Try 2 Ken A Starcher

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23459	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Vintage HO collection

Sorry – the HO collection is a 20 minute drive west of Allentown PA   Doug – thanks for the info on the Champ loco.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23460	From: nvrr49	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Train show. Ambroid

Attachments : photo-23460.JPG Anybody see anything they just gotta have. Give me a call.

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23461	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid [1 Attachment]

Kent,   Not everyone can receive attachments . . . or, maybe I'm the only one who can't, but anyhow not being able to see what you're offering but as I'm reading "Ambroid," in the subject line could you please tell me if you have the L&HR Flanger and the NYO&W Milk Reefer -- in HO.  If there's other things besides Ambroid and the list isn't too long, could you let me know what else you might have?  Thank you,   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 11/30/2014 10:07:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Anybody see anything they just gotta have. Give me a call. Kent Hurley 816-797-0950

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23462	From: nvrr49	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid [1 Attachment]

If you get the digest, to see attachments you have to go to the group site.  Regardless, neither of those were available.  There were about 15 or more Ambroid cars, more that I have seen at one time in many years.  Three estate sales, with some stuff from back in the 1940's.   Kent in KC nvrr49.blogspot.com ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <eriepacific@...> wrote : Kent,   Not everyone can receive attachments . . . or, maybe I'm the only one who can't, but anyhow not being able to see what you're offering but as I'm reading "Ambroid," in the subject line could you please tell me if you have the L&HR Flanger and the NYO&W Milk Reefer -- in HO.  If there's other things besides Ambroid and the list isn't too long, could you let me know what else you might have?  Thank you,   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 11/30/2014 10:07:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Anybody see anything they just gotta have. Give me a call. Kent Hurley 816-797-0950

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23463	From: Walter Bayer II	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid

Ray W, The photo is also in the "Photostream" section of the Yahoo VintageHO group site. On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 12:49 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Kent,   Not everyone can receive attachments . . . or, maybe I'm the only one who can't, but anyhow not being able to see what you're offering but as I'm reading "Ambroid," in the subject line could you please tell me if you have the L&HR Flanger and the NYO&W Milk Reefer -- in HO.  If there's other things besides Ambroid and the list isn't too long, could you let me know what else you might have?  Thank you,   Ray Wetzel      In a message dated 11/30/2014 10:07:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Anybody see anything they just gotta have. Give me a call. Kent Hurley 816-797-0950 -- Regards, Walter

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23464	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid [1 Attachment]

On 11/30/2014 9:02 AM, nvrr49@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Anybody see anything they just gotta have. Give me a call. Kent Hurley 816-797-0950 It's hard to read some of the boxes in your photo, but if there's a USN Helium car and/or a Milwaukee Road 50' Horizontal rib box car in there I could possibly be Talked into it (them) Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/7

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23465	From: John Hagen	Date: 11/30/2014
Subject: Re: Train show. Ambroid

Don,   I didn’t see a helium car but there is a #H-26 Milwaukee 50” Automobile Box Car in there.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2014 12:00 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Train show. Ambroid     On 11/30/2014 9:02 AM, nvrr49@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Anybody see anything they just gotta have. Give me a call.       Kent Hurley 816-797-0950 It's hard to read some of the boxes in your photo, but if there's a USN Helium car and/or a Milwaukee Road 50' Horizontal rib box car in there I could possibly be Talked into it (them) Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/7

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23466	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: Open Platform standards.

[ Yahoo informs me that the file size was too larger, so this is reduced from 12mb to 7 mb, jpg 100% to jpg 95%, so try again ] I wish to pass on a page from the 20th anniversary issue of RMC, September 1953. Its a one pager of dimensional standards for open platform passenger cars. It also has a number of different 'standard' windows and door styles. It should come in handy for models that don't have existing scale drawings. It is scanned at 600-dpi and there is a Dime and Quarter in the scan to help with printing it out to exact [HO] scale if one wishes. I hope some find it to be useful. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23467	From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com	Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: New file uploaded to vintageHO

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the vintageHO group. File : /1880's RR Passenger car standards A.jpg Uploaded by : mwbauers <mwbauers55@...> Description : Open platform passenger car standards You can access this file at the URL: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/files/1880%27s%20RR%20Passenger%20car%20standards%20A.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/index?page=content&y=PROD_GRPS&locale=en_US&id=SLN15398 Regards, mwbauers <mwbauers55@...>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23468	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: Open Platform standards.

added to the files section... 1880's RR Passenger car standards A.jpg Open platform passenger car standards I wish to pass on a page from the 20th anniversary issue of RMC, September 1953. Its a one pager of dimensional standards for open platform passenger cars. It also has a number of different 'standard' windows and door styles. It should come in handy for models that don't have existing scale drawings. It is scanned at 600-dpi and there is a Dime and Quarter in the scan to help with printing it out to exact [HO] scale if one wishes. I hope some find it to be useful. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23469	From: daddy8083	Date: 12/1/2014
Subject: Re: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.

Hello there... I have several "HO Scale MODEL TRAINS "Exclusively HO Scale"" from the early 50's.  Published in Phila., PA, by John H. Peck,  with Eric Lanal in a byline.  Where does this fall in this conversation?

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23470	From: trainguru	Date: 12/2/2014
Subject: Re: HO Monthly: The origins of American HO.

Perfectly here. I have two issues, and am always on the look out for more. Maybe an internet archive should be established for these? It may be wise.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23471	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Allis Chalmers model

Found in a March 1948 magazine, The Model Craftsman ...... An HO model of a proposed Allis Chalmers 'Turbo Generated Locomotive' ........ The model was built from a blank fluted streamlined passenger car body extrusion......... Looks like its supposed to have twin 6-cylinder  diesels on-board. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23472	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: eBay chuckle

found on eBay...... " HO STEAM ENGINE OLD TIME WILD WEST BRASS 2-6-0 ? NEEDS REPAIR OR PARTS " "Used" “for parts or repair MAY BE MISSING SMALL SCREWS” http://www.ebay.com/itm/121505918416 Looks like a nicely detailed older 2-6-0 brass engine.......... rather chunky and attractive. HOWEVER...... " Price:US $8,124.99 " and...... " Shipping:$7.70 Expedited Shipping " You still get charged for shipping........ OOP's ???? Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23473	From: corlissbs	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model [1 Attachment]

This is strange to see.  Allis Chalmers did build 3 conventional diesel electric locomotives.  Somewhere I have slides of all 3.  When I worked for the MILW, a train crew smashed into the last loco. (Probably operating with half the crew, with the other half taking their turn in the tavern.)  The thing sat at the Milwaukee Shops for quite some time, until we sold it for scrap.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 12/4/2014 4:05:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Found in a March 1948 magazine, The Model Craftsman ...... An HO model of a proposed Allis Chalmers 'Turbo Generated Locomotive' ........ The model was built from a blank fluted streamlined passenger car body extrusion......... Looks like its supposed to have twin 6-cylinder  diesels on-board. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi   Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23474	From: tom bell	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model

There is an article in Model Railroad Craftsman for October 1947 which has a drawing of the loco modeled  There is one on Ebay at the moment with the page shown in one of the pictures http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-MODEL-CRAFTSMAN-OCTOBER-1947-ALLIS-CHALMERS-TURBO-CHARGED-LOCOMOTIVE-/32160107520 Tom On 5 December 2014 at 01:33, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   This is strange to see.  Allis Chalmers did build 3 conventional diesel electric locomotives.  Somewhere I have slides of all 3.  When I worked for the MILW, a train crew smashed into the last loco. (Probably operating with half the crew, with the other half taking their turn in the tavern.)  The thing sat at the Milwaukee Shops for quite some time, until we sold it for scrap.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 12/4/2014 4:05:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Found in a March 1948 magazine, The Model Craftsman ...... An HO model of a proposed Allis Chalmers 'Turbo Generated Locomotive' ........ The model was built from a blank fluted streamlined passenger car body extrusion......... Looks like its supposed to have twin 6-cylinder  diesels on-board. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi   Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi -- My website www.tbmod.com My ebay shop http://stores.ebay.com/tbmod My Shapeway's shop http://www.shapeways.com/shops/tebee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23475	From: Brad Smith	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model

The link doesn't work.  Brad Sent from Brad's iPod On Dec 4, 2014, at 7:43 PM, tom bell tebeeb@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   There is an article in Model Railroad Craftsman for October 1947 which has a drawing of the loco modeled  There is one on Ebay at the moment with the page shown in one of the pictures http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-MODEL-CRAFTSMAN-OCTOBER-1947-ALLIS-CHALMERS-TURBO-CHARGED-LOCOMOTIVE-/32160107520 Tom On 5 December 2014 at 01:33, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   This is strange to see.  Allis Chalmers did build 3 conventional diesel electric locomotives.  Somewhere I have slides of all 3.  When I worked for the MILW, a train crew smashed into the last loco. (Probably operating with half the crew, with the other half taking their turn in the tavern.)  The thing sat at the Milwaukee Shops for quite some time, until we sold it for scrap.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 12/4/2014 4:05:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Found in a March 1948 magazine, The Model Craftsman ...... An HO model of a proposed Allis Chalmers 'Turbo Generated Locomotive' ........ The model was built from a blank fluted streamlined passenger car body extrusion......... Looks like its supposed to have twin 6-cylinder  diesels on-board. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi   Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi -- My website www.tbmod.com My ebay shop http://stores.ebay.com/tbmod My Shapeway's shop http://www.shapeways.com/shops/tebee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23476	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model

Well, it does work here. Do a search for the eBay item number from the URL if nothing else... 32160107520 Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 4, 2014, at 6:47 PM, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > The link doesn't work. > > Brad > > Sent from Brad's iPod > > On Dec 4, 2014, at 7:43 PM, tom bell tebeeb@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >> >> There is an article in Model Railroad Craftsman for >> October 1947 which has a drawing of the loco modeled >> >> There is one on Ebay at the moment with the page shown in one of the pictures >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-MODEL-CRAFTSMAN-OCTOBER-1947-ALLIS-CHALMERS-TURBO-CHARGED-LOCOMOTIVE-/32160107520 >> >> Tom >> >> On 5 December 2014 at 01:33, corlissbs@... [vintageHO]<vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >> >> >> This is strange to see. Allis Chalmers did build 3 conventional diesel electric locomotives. Somewhere I have slides of all 3. When I worked for the MILW, a train crew smashed into the last loco. (Probably operating with half the crew, with the other half taking their turn in the tavern.) The thing sat at the Milwaukee Shops for quite some time, until we sold it for scrap. >> >> Brad Smith >> Franklin, WI

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23477	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

On 05/12/14 12:16, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > found on eBay...... > > " HO STEAM ENGINE OLD TIME WILD WEST BRASS 2-6-0 ? NEEDS REPAIR OR PARTS" > > "Used" > “for parts or repair MAY BE MISSING SMALL SCREWS” > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/121505918416 > > Looks like a nicely detailed older 2-6-0 brass engine.......... rather chunky and attractive. > > HOWEVER...... > > " Price:US $8,124.99" > > and...... > > " Shipping:$7.70 Expedited Shipping" > > You still get charged for shipping........ > > OOP's ???? Like the song says: 'Don't you ever let a chance go by..' Where do these people come from?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23478	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model

On 12/4/2014 6:47 PM, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote:   The link doesn't work.  Brad Sent from Brad's iPod On Dec 4, 2014, at 7:43 PM, tom bell tebeeb@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   There is an article in Model Railroad Craftsman for October 1947 which has a drawing of the loco modeled  There is one on Ebay at the moment with the page shown in one of the pictures http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-MODEL-CRAFTSMAN-OCTOBER-1947-ALLIS-CHALMERS-TURBO-CHARGED-LOCOMOTIVE-/32160107520 Tom On 5 December 2014 at 01:33, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   This is strange to see.  Allis Chalmers did build 3 conventional diesel electric locomotives.  Somewhere I have slides of all 3.  When I worked for the MILW, a train crew smashed into the last loco. (Probably operating with half the crew, with the other half taking their turn in the tavern.)  The thing sat at the Milwaukee Shops for quite some time, until we sold it for scrap.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 12/4/2014 4:05:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Found in a March 1948 magazine, The Model Craftsman ...... An HO model of a proposed Allis Chalmers 'Turbo Generated Locomotive' ........ The model was built from a blank fluted streamlined passenger car body extrusion......... Looks like its supposed to have twin 6-cylinder  diesels on-board. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi   Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi -- My website www.tbmod.com My ebay shop http://stores.ebay.com/tbmod My Shapeway's shop http://www.shapeways.com/shops/tebee Worked for me, and with the way Thuderbird displays the messages, THAT is very UNcommon Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23479	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Down under. John Hagen -----Original Message----- From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 7:05 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle On 05/12/14 12:16, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > found on eBay...... > > " HO STEAM ENGINE OLD TIME WILD WEST BRASS 2-6-0 ? NEEDS REPAIR OR PARTS" > > "Used" > "for parts or repair MAY BE MISSING SMALL SCREWS" > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/121505918416 > > Looks like a nicely detailed older 2-6-0 brass engine.......... rather chunky and attractive. > > HOWEVER...... > > " Price:US $8,124.99" > > and...... > > " Shipping:$7.70 Expedited Shipping" > > You still get charged for shipping........ > > OOP's ???? Like the song says: 'Don't you ever let a chance go by..' Where do these people come from?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23480	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model

On 05/12/14 13:47, Brad Smith corlissbs@... [vintageHO] wrote: > The link doesn't work. > Brad Works fine in Noo Zeeland.. Do you have the link broken by being spread over two lines?? A better way is by searching the acution number, as someone else just said.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23481	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Made of solid gold or platinum? At 06:16 PM 12/4/2014, you wrote: >found on eBay...... > >" HO STEAM ENGINE OLD TIME WILD WEST BRASS 2-6-0 ? NEEDS REPAIR OR PARTS " > >"Used" >"for parts or repair MAY BE MISSING SMALL SCREWS" > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/121505918416 > >Looks like a nicely detailed older 2-6-0 brass engine.......... >rather chunky and attractive. > >HOWEVER...... > >" Price:US $8,124.99 " > >and...... > >" Shipping:$7.70 Expedited Shipping " > >You still get charged for shipping........ > >OOP's ???? > >Best to ya, >Mike Bauers >Milwaukee, Wi > > > >------------------------------------ > >------------------------------------ > > >------------------------------------ > >Yahoo Groups Links > > > --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23482	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Hi All, I saw this one this morning. Could not believe my eyes. Must be make from both gold and platinum, or this seller is just very optimistic. Joel Holmes > Made of solid gold or platinum? > > At 06:16 PM 12/4/2014, you wrote: >>found on eBay...... >> >>" HO STEAM ENGINE OLD TIME WILD WEST BRASS 2-6-0 ? NEEDS REPAIR OR PARTS >> " >> >>"Used" >>"for parts or repair MAY BE MISSING SMALL SCREWS" >> >>http://www.ebay.com/itm/121505918416 >> >>Looks like a nicely detailed older 2-6-0 brass engine.......... >>rather chunky and attractive. >> >>HOWEVER...... >> >>" Price:US $8,124.99 " >> >>and...... >> >>" Shipping:$7.70 Expedited Shipping " >> >>You still get charged for shipping........ >> >>OOP's ???? >> >>Best to ya, >>Mike Bauers >>Milwaukee, Wi >> >> >> >>------------------------------------ >> >>------------------------------------ >> >> >>------------------------------------ >> >>Yahoo Groups Links >> >> >> > > --- > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > http://www.avast.com > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23483	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Could just be that they believe their description literally -- that this is an old time wild west engine -- over 140 years old, made in 1870 < g >.  A REAL antique!  Could be some people are that dumb; this one seems to be.   Ray W.     In a message dated 12/4/2014 8:05:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: On 05/12/14 12:16, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > found on eBay...... > > " HO STEAM ENGINE OLD TIME WILD WEST BRASS 2-6-0 ? NEEDS REPAIR OR PARTS" > > "Used" > “for parts or repair MAY BE MISSING SMALL SCREWS” > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/121505918416 > > Looks like a nicely detailed older 2-6-0 brass engine.......... rather chunky and attractive. > > HOWEVER...... > > " Price:US $8,124.99" > > and...... > > " Shipping:$7.70 Expedited Shipping" > > You still get charged for shipping........ > > OOP's ???? Like the song says: 'Don't you ever let a chance go by..' Where do these people come from?? -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23484	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

It was even worse for me....... While I was doing some copy and paste of the page........ I accidentally got the thing moved to my shopping cart........ After the moment of extreme panic, I found the delete button for the item...... For a few moments I feared I had accidentally bought the cursed thing at its asking price of $8,200 !!!!! Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 4, 2014, at 8:57 PM, "'Joel Holmes' lehighvalley@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I saw this one this morning. Could not believe my eyes. Must be make > from both gold and platinum, or this seller is just very optimistic. > > Joel Holmes > >> Made of solid gold or platinum? >> >> At 06:16 PM 12/4/2014, you wrote: >>> found on eBay...... >>> >>> " HO STEAM ENGINE OLD TIME WILD WEST BRASS 2-6-0 ? NEEDS REPAIR OR PARTS >>> " >>> >>> "Used" >>> "for parts or repair MAY BE MISSING SMALL SCREWS" >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/121505918416 >>> >>> Looks like a nicely detailed older 2-6-0 brass engine.......... >>> rather chunky and attractive. >>> >>> HOWEVER...... >>> >>> " Price:US $8,124.99 " >>> >>> and...... >>> >>> " Shipping:$7.70 Expedited Shipping " >>> >>> You still get charged for shipping........ >>> >>> OOP's ???? >>> >>> Best to ya, >>> Mike Bauers >>> Milwaukee, Wi >>>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23485	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: Allis Chalmers model

Actually it does, at least for me.   Try going to eBay and searching for 321601075205   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 6:48 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Allis Chalmers model     The link doesn't work.    Brad Sent from Brad's iPod On Dec 4, 2014, at 7:43 PM, tom bell tebeeb@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   There is an article in Model Railroad Craftsman for October 1947 which has a drawing of the loco modeled    There is one on Ebay at the moment with the page shown in one of the pictures   http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-MODEL-CRAFTSMAN-OCTOBER-1947-ALLIS-CHALMERS-TURBO-CHARGED-LOCOMOTIVE-/32160107520   Tom   On 5 December 2014 at 01:33, corlissbs@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   This is strange to see.  Allis Chalmers did build 3 conventional diesel electric locomotives.  Somewhere I have slides of all 3.  When I worked for the MILW, a train crew smashed into the last loco. (Probably operating with half the crew, with the other half taking their turn in the tavern.)  The thing sat at the Milwaukee Shops for quite some time, until we sold it for scrap.   Brad Smith Franklin, WI   In a message dated 12/4/2014 4:05:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Found in a March 1948 magazine, The Model Craftsman ......   An HO model of a proposed Allis Chalmers 'Turbo Generated Locomotive' ........ The model was built from a blank fluted streamlined passenger car body extrusion.........   Looks like its supposed to have twin 6-cylinder  diesels on-board.   Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi       Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi     --   My website www.tbmod.com My ebay shop http://stores.ebay.com/tbmod My Shapeway's shop http://www.shapeways.com/shops/tebee

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23486	From: greenbrier614	Date: 12/4/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

So how much would it cost assembled?   :o Nelson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23487	From: 23weldon	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute.  They show up pretty often on eBay.  I've seen complete basket cases  (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23488	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

On 12/4/2014 5:16 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: > found on eBay...... > > " HO STEAM ENGINE OLD TIME WILD WEST BRASS 2-6-0 ? NEEDS REPAIR OR PARTS" > > "Used" > “for parts or repair MAY BE MISSING SMALL SCREWS” > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/121505918416 > > Looks like a nicely detailed older 2-6-0 brass engine.......... rather chunky and attractive. > > HOWEVER...... > > " Price:US $8,124.99" > > and...... > > " Shipping:$7.70 Expedited Shipping" > > You still get charged for shipping........ > > OOP's ???? > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > > > ------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo Groups Links > > > > I strongly suspect this is what he's trying to peddle http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/15453-vintage-steamer-model--new-one-tokyo Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23489	From: roblmclear	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Cut the poor guy some slack, it is probably a type and he has made a bit of a mistake.   If not then he is being overly optimistic.   Maybe someone should point out his error to him. Rob McLear Australia.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23490	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative.  Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs.  Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled.  Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it.  I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection.   Ray W.     In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute.  They show up pretty often on eBay.  I've seen complete basket cases  (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23491	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Doesn't pay to even fool around with a site like that.  Once opened and looked at, the only safe place your cursor should be on is "Delete," just so an accident won't happen -- which as you saw can easily be done.  I wonder if eBay would accept the explanation that it was unintentional or misunderstood if you did buy it.     Ray W.     In a message dated 12/4/2014 10:49:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   It was even worse for me....... While I was doing some copy and paste of the page........ I accidentally got the thing moved to my shopping cart........ After the moment of extreme panic, I found the delete button for the item...... For a few moments I feared I had accidentally bought the cursed thing at its asking price of $8,200 !!!!! Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 4, 2014, at 8:57 PM, "'Joel Holmes' lehighvalley@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I saw this one this morning. Could not believe my eyes. Must be make > from both gold and platinum, or this seller is just very optimistic. > > Joel Holmes > >> Made of solid gold or platinum? >> >> At 06:16 PM 12/4/2014, you wrote: >>> found on eBay...... >>> >>> " HO STEAM ENGINE OLD TIME WILD WEST BRASS 2-6-0 ? NEEDS REPAIR OR PARTS >>> " >>> >>> "Used" >>> "for parts or repair MAY BE MISSING SMALL SCREWS" >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/121505918416 >>> >>> Looks like a nicely detailed older 2-6-0 brass engine.......... >>> rather chunky and attractive. >>> >>> HOWEVER...... >>> >>> " Price:US $8,124.99 " >>> >>> and...... >>> >>> " Shipping:$7.70 Expedited Shipping " >>> >>> You still get charged for shipping........ >>> >>> OOP's ???? >>> >>> Best to ya, >>> Mike Bauers >>> Milwaukee, Wi >>>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23492	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Ray is correct in that you have to be careful when dealing with any on-line sales sites.   Shopping cart is just a list for you to decide later what you want to do. Same as Wal-Mart or Best Buy’s shopping  cart. Although I have used it and currently have an item that has been there for maybe three months (the item has been running repeatedly). Only fixed price items will be in your cart and are NOT reserved for you so others can still buy them.   The only time you are committed to buy items in your cart is if you bid on and win items up for auction, i.e. just as it has always been. Once you win something it goes to your cart where it remains until you pay for it.   Really, for all the carping that goes on about the evils of eBay it is really hard to get screwed unless you are being totally reckless on it. Do they charge fees for their services? Hell yes. No one that uses the web to sell product gives anything away and if t hey did they wouldn’t be there for long. Other than the various “yard sale” (HOExchange for example) sites any of the other auction sites that offer model railroad items will cost you at least as much, probably more, to buy and/or sell than eBay. I used the Dash Model Trains site once and got a nine-dollar-something kick in the wallet because I did not read the fine print close enough to understand how the various ad-ons to the buying price worked. Some offer deals for the buyer and screw the seller and others favor the seller (most likely if they are to stay around for long) and screw the buyer and do it more so than eBay has ever done. Not sayin’ eBay is the worlds nicest site but I am getting so tired reading all the BS about eBay. The fact is it has the largest audience there is and that is what really matters to sellers. It also means there is the best selections and POSSIBLE best deals there. However, there is a whole bunch of dealers that sell at retail so by the time you pay shipping and “handling” (can be a real rip-off, watch this)  you are paying as much or more than you would if you bought locally or from manufacturers sites, both preferred I n my opinion.   Use your head when buying and eBay can be a real tool.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 6:56 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle     Doesn't pay to even fool around with a site like that.  Once opened and looked at, the only safe place your cursor should be on is "Delete," just so an accident won't happen -- which as you saw can easily be done.  I wonder if eBay would accept the explanation that it was unintentional or misunderstood if you did buy it.     Ray W.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23493	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

I just looked again.  Seems the price has dropped? Dennis On 12/4/2014 9:15 PM, roblmclear@... [vintageHO] wrote: Cut the poor guy some slack, it is probably a type and he has made a bit of a mistake.   If not then he is being overly optimistic.   Maybe someone should point out his error to him. Rob McLear Australia.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23494	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

On 12/5/2014 10:32 AM, Dennis Thompson dbtrail@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I just looked again.  Seems the price has dropped? Dennis On 12/4/2014 9:15 PM, roblmclear@... [vintageHO] wrote: Cut the poor guy some slack, it is probably a type and he has made a bit of a mistake.   If not then he is being overly optimistic.   Maybe someone should point out his error to him. Rob McLear Australia. Now he's only asking 2 or 3 times whit's it's worth, better than the 20 times it was before. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23495	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

I checked his other items and he is not low priced by any stretch. But this is more in line with his other prices.   To me he is probably in the area of 4 times it’s worth but then I’m cheap. Or broke. Probably both.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 11:15 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle       Now he's only asking 2 or 3 times whit's it's worth, better than the 20 times it was before. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23496	From: Wobbly913	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

I just checked, his price is now $124.99. Don From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 9:29 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle I checked his other items and he is not low priced by any stretch. But this is more in line with his other prices.   To me he is probably in the area of 4 times it’s worth but then I’m cheap. Or broke. Probably both.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 11:15 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle       Now he's only asking 2 or 3 times whit's it's worth, better than the 20 times it was before. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23497	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Still way too high.  Some people think all trains are as valuable as the very rare Lionel collectables. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 17:39:45 +0000 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle   I just checked, his price is now $124.99. Don From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 9:29 AM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle I checked his other items and he is not low priced by any stretch. But this is more in line with his other prices.   To me he is probably in the area of 4 times it’s worth but then I’m cheap. Or broke. Probably both.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 11:15 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle       Now he's only asking 2 or 3 times whit's it's worth, better than the 20 times it was before. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23498	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Hi Ray, Generally speaking, you are correct about purchasing basket cases.  Usually they aren't worth the money and time needed to get them back to what they should be.  However, I have seen a couple of brass locos that were abused and hit concrete.  They had a few bent parts, but the guy that bought them got them for a very good price.  He was also very capable and was able to get these looking really good and running very well.  Most modelers would not even know where to begin.  I do not believe I could have accomplished what he was able to. Having said that, I have purchased a couple of brass locos that needed some help.  Some parts were falling off, but they did not appear to have been abused or hit pavement.  I picked up an early Japanese (New One, I think) 0-6-0 with some foot boards missing and no rear sill on the tender.  Mostly, it was filthy, but I got it for $20.  A couple of hours later and some work with the Resistance soldering tool and the thing was running beautifully....sort of.  It has an ancient open frame motor that really needs to be replaced, but the mechanism is smooth as silk.  The loco is now complete and wile not a beautifully superdetailed brass loco, it can do work on the railroad without being ashamed.  The other loco I picked up was a Gem A5s that had a bad motor and headlight had come off.  I did need to drill a couple of tiny holes to accept some thin brass wire to help hold up the headlight and using the Resistance soldering tool, the headlight was back on.  The motor, as it turned out, had a totally gone rear bearing.  I think it was made of plastic, at least that is what it looked like, what was left of it.  I found a small piece of brass rod that fit the hole and drilled a hole through it and VOILA!, a new rear bearing.  After cleaning up the KTM motor and lubing it, I found it starts the locomotive at less than 3 volts and under full load pulls .3 amps, or 300 ma.  It has a decoder in it and looks and runs great on the railroad. Having done this work, I feel like I am ready to do two things. 1. Build my Kemron 2-6-0 brass kit. 2. Scratch build a brass loco.  Maybe not right away, but soon. Regards, Vic B. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 07:49:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: eBay chuckle   Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative.  Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs.  Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled.  Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it.  I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection.   Ray W.     In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute.  They show up pretty often on eBay.  I've seen complete basket cases  (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23499	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Hi Vic,   If it's not a complete basket case, with everything in individual parts, it's surely worth picking up if the price is right -- even when it might have bent parts.  The Japanese 0-6-0 and the Gem A5s sound like good buys, especially if you're innovative and handy.  Glad you were able to restore them.   While not a basket case, I came across a United SP GS4 at a train meet many years ago.  I expressed some interest in it and when I asked where the tender was, the dealer told me that the engine and tender had fallen to the floor and that the tender was demolished -- said I could have the engine alone for $50.    I told him I'd think about it and was walking away, when I overheard him say something to his partner about a bent frame.  Not actually knowing if he was talking about the engine I was just looking at, I continued to walk but with keeping that "bent frame" mention in mind as possibly being associated with the GS4.  After a while I came back to negotiate the price and he dropped it to $40, so I took it.  Sure enough, the frame was out of whack but not terribly so that I wasn't able to straighten it.  I disassembled it when I got home and straightened the frame with some care and a bit of time, then put it back together.  There was no other damage on it at all and I added a Bachmann/Lionel GS4 tender; it runs like a champ.  Bought a nice factory painted Balboa more recently which I'm very pleased with, but that United engine can't be beat for the price.  Not too often do ya come across heavy steam brass at such low prices even if they need fixin'.      Ray W.     In a message dated 12/5/2014 1:23:51 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hi Ray, Generally speaking, you are correct about purchasing basket cases.  Usually they aren't worth the money and time needed to get them back to what they should be.  However, I have seen a couple of brass locos that were abused and hit concrete.  They had a few bent parts, but the guy that bought them got them for a very good price.  He was also very capable and was able to get these looking really good and running very well.  Most modelers would not even know where to begin.  I do not believe I could have accomplished what he was able to. Having said that, I have purchased a couple of brass locos that needed some help.  Some parts were falling off, but they did not appear to have been abused or hit pavement.  I picked up an early Japanese (New One, I think) 0-6-0 with some foot boards missing and no rear sill on the tender.  Mostly, it was filthy, but I got it for $20.  A couple of hours later and som e work with the Resistance soldering tool and the thing was running beautifully....sort of.  It has an ancient open frame motor that really needs to be replaced, but the mechanism is smooth as silk.  The loco is now complete and wile not a beautifully superdetailed brass loco, it can do work on the railroad without being ashamed.  The other loco I picked up was a Gem A5s that had a bad motor and headlight had come off.  I did need to drill a couple of tiny holes to accept some thin brass wire to help hold up the headlight and using the Resistance soldering tool, the headlight was back on.  The motor, as it turned out, had a totally gone rear bearing.  I think it was made of plastic, at least that is what it looked like, what was left of it.  I found a small piece of brass rod that fit the hole and drilled a hole through it and VOILA!, a new rear bearing.  After cleaning up the KTM motor and lubing it, I found it starts the locomotive a t less than 3 volts and under full load pulls .3 amps, or 300 ma.  It has a decoder in it and looks and runs great on the railroad. Having done this work, I feel like I am ready to do two things. 1. Build my Kemron 2-6-0 brass kit. 2. Scratch build a brass loco.  Maybe not right away, but soon. Regards, Vic B. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 07:49:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: eBay chuckle   Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative.  Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs.  Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled.  Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it.  I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection.   Ray W.     In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute.  They show up pretty often on eBay.  I've seen complete basket cases  (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23500	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

As you all know by now, ands in this case, an obvious typo. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23501	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23502	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Hi Guys, I would say that at $124.99 is 4 to 6 times what it is worth in the condition that it in. It could cost 2 to 3 times that amount to get it running, assuming that all the missing parts were available. Joel Holmes > I just checked, his price is now $124.99. > > Don > > From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" > <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 9:29 AM > Subject: RE: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle > > #yiv8739748742 #yiv8739748742 -- #yiv8739748742 > .yiv8739748742ygrp-photo-title{clear:both;font-size:smaller;height:15px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;width:75px;}#yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742ygrp-photo{background-position:center;background-repeat:no-repeat;background-color:white;border:1px > solid black;height:62px;width:62px;}#yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742photo-title a, #yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742photo-title a:active, #yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742photo-title a:hover, #yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742photo-title a:visited > {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742attach-table > div.yiv8739748742attach-row {clear:both;}#yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742attach-table div.yiv8739748742attach-row div > {float:left;}#yiv8739748742 p {clear:both;padding:15px 0 3px > 0;overflow:hidden;}#yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742ygrp-file > {width:30px;}#yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742attach-table > div.yiv8739748742attach-row div div a > {text-decoration:none;}#yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742attach-table > div.yiv8739748742attach-row div div span > {font-weight:normal;}#yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742ygrp-file-title > {font-weight:bold;}#yiv8739748742 #yiv8739748742 #yiv8739748742 > #yiv8739748742 -- _filtered #yiv8739748742 > {font-family:Wingdings;panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} _filtered > #yiv8739748742 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8739748742 > {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered > #yiv8739748742 {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > _filtered #yiv8739748742 {font-family:Verdana;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 > 4;} _filtered #yiv8739748742 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 > 3 2 4;}#yiv8739748742 #yiv8739748742 p.yiv8739748742MsoNormal, > #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742MsoNormal, #yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742MsoNormal > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8739748742 a:link, > #yiv8739748742 span.yiv8739748742MsoHyperlink > {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8739748742 a:visited, > #yiv8739748742 span.yiv8739748742MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8739748742 p > {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8739748742 code > {}#yiv8739748742 pre > {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv8739748742 tt > {}#yiv8739748742 span.yiv8739748742HTMLPreformattedChar > {font-family:Consolas;}#yiv8739748742 span.yiv8739748742cat > {}#yiv8739748742 span.yiv8739748742ct {}#yiv8739748742 > p.yiv8739748742attach, #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742attach, > #yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742attach > {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:9.0pt;}#yiv8739748742 > p.yiv8739748742bold, #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742bold, #yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742bold > {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold;}#yiv8739748742 > p.yiv8739748742green, #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742green, #yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742green > {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;color:#628C2A;}#yiv8739748742 > p.yiv8739748742replbq, #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742replbq, > #yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742replbq > {margin:3.0pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8739748742 p.yiv8739748742ad, > #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742ad, #yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742ad > {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8739748742 > p.yiv8739748742underline, #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742underline, > #yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742underline > {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8739748742 > span.yiv8739748742yshortcuts {}#yiv8739748742 p.yiv8739748742ad1, > #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742ad1, #yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742ad1 > {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8739748742 > p.yiv8739748742ad2, #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742ad2, #yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742ad2 > {margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:7.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv8739748742 > p.yiv8739748742underline1, #yiv8739748742 li.yiv8739748742underline1, > #yiv8739748742 div.yiv8739748742underline1 > {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8739748742 > span.yiv8739748742yshortcuts1 {font-weight:bold;}#yiv8739748742 > span.yiv8739748742yshortcuts2 {font-weight:normal;}#yiv8739748742 > span.yiv8739748742EmailStyle36 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8739748742 > .yiv8739748742MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8739748742 > {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv8739748742 > div.yiv8739748742WordSection1 {}#yiv8739748742 _filtered #yiv8739748742 {} > _filtered #yiv8739748742 {font-family:Symbol;}#yiv8739748742 ol > {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv8739748742 ul {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv8739748742 > > I checked his other items and he is not low priced by any stretch. But > this is more in line with his other prices.  To me he is probably in the > area of 4 times it’s worth but then I’m cheap. Or broke. Probably > both.  John Hagen  From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 11:15 AM > To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [vintageHO] eBay chuckle    >   > Now he's only asking 2 or 3 times whit's it's worth, better than the 20 > times it was before. > > > -- Don DellmannContact me at:don.dellmann@... my toys > at:http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/Listowner: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23503	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

He's still on the high side. I'd prefer to see half that price. But I know that bidding would bring it up to his asking price. His price is East-Coast reasonable. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 11:39 AM, Wobbly913 wobbly913@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > I just checked, his price is now $124.99. > > Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23504	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Maybe it's not that bad of a problem......... If all of the parts are there, a little time at the workbench, some neat painting and decaling, and a new motor costing under $10 may be all that is needed. Here's a recent buy of mine.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-LOCOMOTIVE-PARTS-HO-SCALE-/201227396519 or ... http://tinyurl.com/kshsyqe http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODgxWDE2MDA=/z/qJEAAOSwuMFUdg3e/$_57.JPG Looks like fun to me! .... and more in line with the price you expect. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 2:30 PM, 'Joel Holmes' lehighvalley@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I would say that at $124.99 is 4 to 6 times what it is worth in the > condition that it in. It could cost 2 to 3 times that amount to get it > running, assuming that all the missing parts were available. > > Joel Holmes > >> I just checked, his price is now $124.99. >> >> Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23505	From: Garry Spear	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Knapp or early Red Ball

Looking at the rebuilding brass I noted this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131366767275 This appears to be a Knapp (or early Red Ball) engine. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23506	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Knapp or early Red Ball

I saw that also.......... It looks like a nice little 'light' 4-8-4. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > > > Looking at the rebuilding brass I noted this: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/131366767275 > This appears to be a Knapp (or early Red Ball) engine. > > Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23507	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Knapp or early Red Ball

It's a Knapp 4-8-2, later Bowser with the same boiler.  The driver pin screw holes are pretty rough in this one. Don Staton in VA ==================================================================== On 12/5/2014 3:57 PM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I saw that also.......... It looks like a nice little 'light' 4-8-4. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 2:53 PM, Garry Spear wrote: > > > Looking at the rebuilding brass I noted this: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/131366767275 > This appears to be a Knapp (or early Red Ball) engine. > > Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23508	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Knapp or early Red Ball

Interesting piece but $10.00 too high. In fact, in order to stimulate bidding, $20.00 too high.   I don’t understand why so many sellers are afraid of auctions. They all want to control the price so they do these silly BIN’s or even one price ads. Hell I’ve made some real money in the past by placing low starting bids and watching what happens. I’ve had items go up two – four hundred bucks in the last minute (some “O” SCALE stuff). Yeah sometimes you don’t make out as well as you’d like but if you don’t have too much in the item (or it’s been sitting there bleeding you for way too long) you don’t lose, you just don’t make as much as you’d like. BFD. When you set the price you limit your possible profit and your customer base.   If I go searching for HO 2-8-2’s, which is every week, when I click on any of the brands I just scroll through looking at the prices. When I see a price that interests me I take a serious look. That means I don’t even glance at about 90% of the ads.   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 2:54 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Knapp or early Red Ball     Looking at the rebuilding brass I noted this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/131366767275 This appears to be a Knapp (or early Red Ball) engine. Garry Spear

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23509	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Missing the gearing or the motor is nothing to be concerned with.  A modeler can just go to NWSL to replace gearing with something even better than original many times.  Motors are readily available.  I'm talking about parts on scarce and hard to find models, which can't be found anywhere.  I DID say that Varney, Penn Line, Mantua -- and other popular manufacturers of the time -- are familiar enough to most of us to figure out, as to be of no concern.  We (you & I), and others here, could probably assemble a Varney basket case blindfolded.   It's those unavailable and necessary parts that require tooling as the only way to reproduce them that I'm talking about, and not every modeler has an extensive array of tools needed for these operations.  I'm glad to see you picked up one of these Varney streamliners from the verge of death in a trash box and will be restoring it.  Nothing like bringing something like that back to life, for a feeling of satisfaction when you've completed it on put it back on the rails.   Agreed, besides the superstructure, the main parts you'd like to start with are the frame and drivers.  As for the other parts though, you said it yourself when stating you'll be using your newly acquired 3-D printer and soon-to-arrive laser printer to make many parts.  Not very many modeler have these tools to play with, but I wish you the best of success with them.  Yes, it can be fun trying to figure out how to best complete a basket case -- if all the parts are there -- but it's frustrating to find it can't be completed, when impossible to find parts are missing (unless you have the tools, like you're getting, to fabricate them).  Without a means of replacing the missing parts, it becomes no fun when you can't operate it.   Side rods are not that easy to make accurately unless you have the machinery to make them with precision.  The main thing needed is to have the spacing of the rod to driver mounting holes exactly the same as the spacing between the driver axles.  If any one of those holes are off by little more than a few thousandths of an inch, it will create binding and you won't know where.  Unless the modeler prefers to use only original parts, pilots can be had from a number of sources, including Yardbird Trains.  The same is true for leading and trailing trucks, but steam chests are not readily interchangeable between manufacturers (or engine types).  They're not really the parts I had in mind though.  Take for example Jim Heckard's Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2.  He's missing the valve gear for it.  Where do you suggest he look to find it?  This is but one example of so many partial rare locomotives we may come across which can't be completed -- unless we can fabricate the missing parts -- which few people can.  Others I remember seeing here are things like Dallas Modelcraft cast brass E-Units having no side panels, and others I can't quite recall.  Yes, side panels could be fabricated out of plastic sheet, with properly measuring a similar unit (Hobbytown, Cary, AHM) to copy from, but most often the vintage modeler prefers to restore a vintage model using original vintage parts when possible.  If it didn't matter to the modeler what the finished locomotive looked like, he might just as well go out and by a Bachmann.      Ray W.           In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:28:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or pro cedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23510	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Like I say, Its fun..... For many years I've had a Sherline lathe and finally got a Sherline mill. The lathe is so old, its one of the first US series with brass ways. I bought it new somewhere around 1980. Twenty or so more years after that, I bought the mill.. I know most people don't have the like. But they aren't really required when you can buy precision tools like the Harbor Freight digital Calipers for as little as $10 on sale. Something like that, or just good locking machinists dividers are as techie as you need to be to make side-rods. The old boys published all the tips and DIY on that decades ago. I like the method where you use some old model rail to make your side rods. Accurate measuring, layout, a stout bench vice, some reliable files, and sharp drills are what you need to make side-rods. Most any strong sheet metal will work for rod material. My mill can drill and shape those parts quite well, but that tool is not a necessity to make them. Its just a very handy tool for a lot of things. The 3d printer cost me as much as a single fully equipped Walthers HO Diesel with the works, not a bad trade-off for me. A laser cutter is more of a dream tool that will let me have the Milwaukee Road passenger train of my dreams, I just might make it the new $600 low-power 3-watt one if I don't go and get the much more robust higher powered one of 45-watts. I haven't decided, yet have saved enough to fire off the order with the funds saved for either ready to go. LazerBlade... http://www.darklylabs.com That laser is more of a batch-making tool... like more than a dozen vintage locomotive cabs panels from one sheet of material in some minutes, or the body parts for a dozen TM early 900's trolleys. That's getting extreme. But the new $600 laser cutter makes that sort of dreaming possible. When it comes down to steamer pilots..... I like the one on the Monogram C&O Hudson kit. Its a one piece casting that can be made from folded sheet material. I also like the Selley rendition of the cast steel General Steel pilot. I guess both are vintage today. But they are perfect for casting masters for modern freight and passenger steam power. As for the old rod pilots, there are very nice DIY instructions for making those on the workbench, published and republished over the years. Lets just say I'm over prepared for this sort of thing. You might find it to be interesting that I hunted down one of the old Bachmann 2-8-0 Camelback boilers just to be able to recast the finely rendered twin air-pumps found on it. RTV casting is a great modelers tool for parts that just aren't available today. Looking at it, that power reverse package on the boiler needs to be on my Mantua models as well....and the air-tanks and domes while I'm at it. Like I've said. I enjoy planning what best way to use to complete a basket case..... or to use on future projects, Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 4:53 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Missing the gearing or the motor is nothing to be concerned with. A modeler can just go to NWSL to replace gearing with something even better than original many times. Motors are readily available. I'm talking about parts on scarce and hard to find models, which can't be found anywhere. I DID say that Varney, Penn Line, Mantua -- and other popular manufacturers of the time -- are familiar enough to most of us to figure out, as to be of no concern. We (you & I), and others here, could probably assemble a Varney basket case blindfolded. > > It's those unavailable and necessary parts that require tooling as the only way to reproduce them that I'm talking about, and not every modeler has an extensive array of tools needed for these operations. I'm glad to see you picked up one of these Varney streamliners from the verge of death in a trash box and will be restoring it. Nothing like bringing something like that back to life, for a feeling of satisfaction when you've completed it on put it back on the rails. > > Agreed, besides the superstructure, the main parts you'd like to start with are the frame and drivers. As for the other parts though, you said it yourself when stating you'll be using your newly acquired 3-D printer and soon-to-arrive laser printer to make many parts. Not very many modeler have these tools to play with, but I wish you the best of success with them. Yes, it can be fun trying to figure out how to best complete a basket case -- if all the parts are there -- but it's frustrating to find it can't be completed, when impossible to find parts are missing (unless you have the tools, like you're getting, to fabricate them). Without a means of replacing the missing parts, it becomes no fun when you can't operate it. > > Side rods are not that easy to make accurately unless you have the machinery to make them with precision. The main thing needed is to have the spacing of the rod to driver mounting holes exactly the same as the spacing between the driver axles. If any one of those holes are off by little more than a few thousandths of an inch, it will create binding and you won't know where. Unless the modeler prefers to use only original parts, pilots can be had from a number of sources, including Yardbird Trains. The same is true for leading and trailing trucks, but steam chests are not readily interchangeable between manufacturers (or engine types). They're not really the parts I had in mind though. Take for example Jim Heckard's Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2. He's missing the valve gear for it. Where do you suggest he look to find it? This is but one example of so many partial rare locomotives we may come across which can't be completed -- unless we can fabricate the missing parts -- which few people can. Others I remember seeing here are things like Dallas Modelcraft cast brass E-Units having no side panels, and others I can't quite recall. Yes, side panels could be fabricated out of plastic sheet, with properly measuring a similar unit (Hobbytown, Cary, AHM) to copy from, but most often the vintage modeler prefers to restore a vintage model using original vintage parts when possible. If it didn't matter to the modeler what the finished locomotive looked like, he might just as well go out and by a Bachmann. > > Ray W. > >> >> In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:28:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: >> Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. >> >> However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. >> >> Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. >> >> Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. >> >> Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. >> >> Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. >> >> I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. >> >> Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. >> >> I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] >> >> Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? >> >> I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. > >>> On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or pro cedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. >>> > >>> > Ray W. >>> > >>>> > >>>> > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: >>>> > >>>> > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon >>>> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23511	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

On 06/12/14 1:55, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doesn't pay to even fool around with a site like that. Once opened and > looked at, the only safe place your cursor should be on is "Delete," just so > an accident won't happen -- which as you saw can easily be done. I wonder > if eBay would accept the explanation that it was unintentional or > misunderstood if you did buy it. > > Ray W. This item is so out-of-line with current market prices that I don't think you would have any trouble pointing that out, and claiming your bid as a mistake.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23512	From: oklacnw	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Allis-Chalmers loco

One could possibly scratch-build one using some old AHM E-8/9 bodies without too much trouble. That's how I built my C&NW 5000A Babyface. Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23513	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Allis-Chalmers loco

Be interested in see that CNW 500A as I want to do one also.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 4:16 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Cc: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] Re:Allis-Chalmers loco     One could possibly scratch-build one using some old AHM E-8/9 bodies without too much trouble. That's how I built my C&NW 5000A Babyface. Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23514	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Yes, now that you mention it, I recall reading about making side rods out of discarded rail.  Interesting article, if it was in MR or RMC -- I just don't remember where I saw it.  I've tried making them out of strong sheet metal but could never get the crank pin holes spaced exactly in proportion with the driver axle spacing.  Always had to elongate one or more of those holes (which left for a sloppy fit).  Okay, I see a digital calipers would help a lot; will try that next time.  Got to look into Harbor Freight's tools too.    I expected a 3-D printer would cost much more.  I know not everyone has a laser cutter -- unless they're in mass production of parts, which would make up for the price.  I can see a mill and a lathe would come in very handy.  Walthers offered the Unimat mill and lathes some time back, but had the Sherline versions more recently -- like the machines that you have.  Still, the average modeler just doesn't acquire equipment like this, just as you've said.  For one thing, the modeler has to weigh their costs with how often they'd use them.  I'd find them handy, but wouldn't anticipate using them extensively.    I like the selections of Cal Scale and Kemtron pilots, and a lot of other detail parts they offered.  Cal Scale had a nice General Steel Castings pilot, which can still be found on eBay from time to time.  I've used a few of them.  Precision Scale has many good pilots too.  Out of all of them, most anyone is bound to find one to fit their needs.  As for twin Air Pumps, are Bachmann's any better than Precision Scale's version?  Lots of avenues of fun in this hobby; depends what a modeler enjoys most.   Best of luck with your new equipment.  I'd be curious to know how they work out for your purposes.    Regards,   Ray W.      In a message dated 12/5/2014 6:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Like I say, Its fun..... For many years I've had a Sherline lathe and finally got a Sherline mill. The lathe is so old, its one of the first US series with brass ways. I bought it new somewhere around 1980. Twenty or so more years after that, I bought the mill.. I know most people don't have the like. But they aren't really required when you can buy precision tools like the Harbor Freight digital Calipers for as little as $10 on sale. Something like that, or just good locking machinists dividers are as techie as you need to be to make side-rods. The old boys published all the tips and DIY on that decades ago. I like the method where you use some old model rail to make your side rods. Accurate measuring, layout, a stout bench vice, some reliable files, and sharp drills are what you need to make side-rods. Most any strong sheet metal will work for rod material. My mill can drill and shape those parts quite well, but that tool is not a necessity to make them. Its just a very handy tool for a lot of things. The 3d printer cost me as much as a single fully equipped Walthers HO Diesel with the works, not a bad trade-off for me. A laser cutter is more of a dream tool that will let me have the Milwaukee Road passenger train of my dreams, I just might make it the new $600 low-power 3-watt one if I don't go and get the much more robust higher powered one of 45-watts. I haven't decided, yet have saved enough to fire off the order with the funds saved for either ready to go. LazerBlade... http://www.darklylabs.com That laser is more of a batch-making tool... like more than a dozen vintage locomotive cabs panels from one sheet of material in some minutes, or the body parts for a dozen TM early 900's trolleys. That's getting extreme. But the new $600 laser cutter makes that sort of dreaming possible. When it comes down to steamer pilots..... I like the one on the Monogram C&O Hudson kit. Its a one piece casting that can be made from folded sheet material. I also like the Selley rendition of the cast steel General Steel pilot. I guess both are vintage today. But they are perfect for casting masters for modern freight and passenger steam power. As for the old rod pilots, there are very nice DIY instructions for making those on the workbench, published and republished over the years. Lets just say I'm over prepared for this sort of thing. You might find it to be interesting that I hunted down one of the old Bachmann 2-8-0 Camelback boilers just to be able to recast the finely rendered twin air-pumps found on it. RTV casting is a great modelers tool for parts that just aren't available today. Looking at it, that power reverse package on the boiler needs to be on my Mantua models as well....and the air-tanks and domes while I'm at it. Like I've said. I enjoy planning what best way to use to complete a basket case..... or to use on future projects, Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 4:53 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Missing the gearing or the motor is nothing to be concerned with. A modeler can just go to NWSL to replace gearing with something even better than original many times. Motors are readily available. I'm talking about parts on scarce and hard to find models, which can't be found anywhere. I DID say that Varney, Penn Line, Mantua -- and other popular manufacturers of the time -- are familiar enough to most of us to figure out, as to be of no concern. We (you & I), and others here, could probably assemble a Varney basket case blindfolded. > > It's those unavailable and necessary parts that require tooling as the only way to reproduce them that I'm talking about, and not every modeler has an extensive array of tools needed for these operations. I'm glad to see you picked up one of these Varney streamliners from the verge of death in a trash box and will be restoring it. Nothing like bringing something like that back to life, for a feeling of satisfaction when you've completed it on put it back on the rails. > > Agreed, besides the superstructure, the main parts you'd like to start with are the frame and drivers. As for the other parts though, you said it yourself when stating you'll be using your newly acquired 3-D printer and soon-to-arrive laser printer to make many parts. Not very many modeler have these tools to play with, but I wish you the best of success with them. Yes, it can be fun trying to figure out how to best complete a basket case -- if all the parts are there -- but it's frustrating to find it can't be completed, when impossible to find parts are missing (unless you have the tools, like you're getting, to fabricate them). Without a means of replacing the missing parts, it becomes no fun when you can't operate it. > > Side rods are not that easy to make accurately unless you have the machinery to make them with precision. The main thing needed is to have the spacing of the rod to driver mounting holes exactly the same as the spacing between the driver axles. If any one of those holes are off by little more than a few thousandths of an inch, it will create binding and you won't know where. Unless the modeler prefers to use only original parts, pilots can be had from a number of sources, including Yardbird Trains. The same is true for leading and trailing trucks, but steam chests are not readily interchangeable between manufacturers (or engine types). They're not really the parts I had in mind though. Take for example Jim Heckard's Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2. He's missing the valve gear for it. Where do you suggest he look to find it? This is but one example of so many partial rare locomotives we may come across which can't be completed -- unless we can fabricat e the missing parts -- which few people can. Others I remember seeing here are things like Dallas Modelcraft cast brass E-Units having no side panels, and others I can't quite recall. Yes, side panels could be fabricated out of plastic sheet, with properly measuring a similar unit (Hobbytown, Cary, AHM) to copy from, but most often the vintage modeler prefers to restore a vintage model using original vintage parts when possible. If it didn't matter to the modeler what the finished locomotive looked like, he might just as well go out and by a Bachmann. > > Ray W. > >> >> In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:28:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: >> Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. >> >> However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. >> >> Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. >> >> Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. >> >> Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. >> >> Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. >> >> I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. >> >> Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. >> >> I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] >> >> Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? >> >> I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. > >>> On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > >>> > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or pro cedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. >>> > >>> > Ray W. >>> > >>>> > >>>> > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: >>>> > >>>> > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon >>>> >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23515	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

Thanks!  Didn't realize that eBay would be aware (or care) of the going price.   Ray W.     In a message dated 12/5/2014 7:44:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   On 06/12/14 1:55, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Doesn't pay to even fool around with a site like that. Once opened and > looked at, the only safe place your cursor should be on is "Delete," just so > an accident won't happen -- which as you saw can easily be done. I wonder > if eBay would accept the explanation that it was unintentional or > misunderstood if you did buy it. > > Ray W. This item is so out-of-line with current market prices that I don't think you would have any trouble pointing that out, and claiming your bid as a mistake.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23516	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Allis-Chalmers loco

With no other alternative, I can see this choice, but if I were restoring a vintage cast brass model I'd want to use the same material (heavy sheet brass) that was used on the original.  Not easily fabricated without more expensive motorized tools.   Ray W.     In a message dated 12/5/2014 8:35:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   One could possibly scratch-build one using some old AHM E-8/9 bodies without too much trouble. That's how I built my C&NW 5000A Babyface. Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23517	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

On 06/12/14 17:48, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Thanks! Didn't realize that eBay would be aware (or care) of the going > price. Ebay generally don't give a damn, but on one occasion I actually had a pink (real live person) call me from California about a complaint I made of my graphics copyright being breached. The were being used on coffee mugs, but finally we decided that the hassle wasn't worth the effort.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23518	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/5/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Once it got to the point that brass locomotives were taking off in price.... quite a while ago, had browsed a couple of great how to build model locomotives books at the LHS and it suddenly didn't seem to be as bad an investment for the lathe. I weighed its cost against a moderately priced brass and it was about the same. It also help my decision that I had manually filed down the flanges on an AHM steamer and after seeing the same sort of operation on a lathe at work, realized it was a lot easier to do it on that tool. Soon I helped out a friend at the model railroad club by reducing the flanges on a big cardboard box of European cars........ It was so fast and easy it was almost sinful..... it was an honest 5-seconds per wheel after the first one with the tooling set-up I used. I window shopped for quite a while on hobby lathes until I was certain I was buying the right one. I gradually added the milling conversion parts and for almost 20-years did both milling and lathing with the tool. I got very lucky on the 3d printer. To begin with, it wasn't too pricy and I was just about ready to buy it when I stumbled across a store shelf display of the same machine with a great discount and an assurance that it had never been operated. Once I made certain it was the current model, after some hours I committed myself. I plan to add the optional heated table and move on to ABS 3d printing. I don't expect to get the highest resolution such as scale door knobs and rivets, a well formed blank that I'll then put on those small details will work out just fine. I made certain that others were getting that kind of quality from the machine, before I committed. And it came to me in the factory box with all of the factory parts and small tools it left the production line with. Walthers does have more expensive HO locomotives than this cost me. As for the laser, I wouldn't have considered it a few years ago. As I saved up for one the prices also dropped on me. I can get a super-deluxe one for not much over $3,000, perhaps $4,000 with additional gear. That's still pricy. But while saving up for a more expensive one, these appeared and leaving the idea on the back burner made me surprised after a couple of years that I had saved enough to get a $10,000 unit as I had first expected. But now I can do just fine with something near $3,000. That machine is going to pay me back with projects that no-one else is touching and if I find I'm making enough from it, like enough to buy an over $10,000 unit from the generated funds, I'll know I'm on the right track and wasn't mistaken about getting one of the better machines. Meanwhile my study of what is out there will settle me into a unit that is good for 3000 hours of use before the few-hundred dollar laser tube will need replacement, and I know I'll be able to afford that if I decide to not go to the more expensive level. So I would be good for 3-4 years of part time use of the laser. Then that $600 laser came out. It's nice. it can't do all that the $3,000 to $4,000 laser can do........ But if I wimp out and go for it, I still can make my wanted projects with a different material. The dilemma is that if the economy goes south, I'd want that more expensive laser to feed myself, and if the bottom falls out, I won't be able to buy that sort of machine. So do I buy it now to make sure I get one, or not.......... I'm not sure. But will be in a few days. One way or another, I'll get a good laser for my needs, either well-powered or low-powered. if the bottom fell, I'd be making very affordable stuff with either cutter. But....... Well, you see how something can be over analyzed. I got a stock of basket case kits and surplus parts over the last few years. As RR cars became the nearly $60 items of RTR pieces of today and RR passenger cars hitting $130, I've tooled up to be able to used modified classic methods to make my own RR freight cars at under $5 each, fully decorated, not counting couplers. But inclusive of fully printed and 3d layered car panels that with the addition of laser cutting, will be easy to generate and assemble. Photo-real in some cases, graphic generated in others. I'm working on a dream. If the world doesn't become a nightmare, I'll be living a dream soon. If it goes bad, I have a plan to work through it. Here's to hoping that hobbies remain having a natural niche in a decent world.......... I need to get out more ......... Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Dec 5, 2014, at 10:46 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Yes, now that you mention it, I recall reading about making side rods out of discarded rail. Interesting article, if it was in MR or RMC -- I just don't remember where I saw it. I've tried making them out of strong sheet metal but could never get the crank pin holes spaced exactly in proportion with the driver axle spacing. Always had to elongate one or more of those holes (which left for a sloppy fit). Okay, I see a digital calipers would help a lot; will try that next time. Got to look into Harbor Freight's tools too. > > I expected a 3-D printer would cost much more. I know not everyone has a laser cutter -- unless they're in mass production of parts, which would make up for the price. I can see a mill and a lathe would come in very handy. Walthers offered the Unimat mill and lathes some time back, but had the Sherline versions more recently -- like the machines that you have. Still, the average modeler just doesn't acquire equipment like this, just as you've said. For one thing, the modeler has to weigh their costs with how often they'd use them. I'd find them handy, but wouldn't anticipate using them extensively. > > I like the selections of Cal Scale and Kemtron pilots, and a lot of other detail parts they offered. Cal Scale had a nice General Steel Castings pilot, which can still be found on eBay from time to time. I've used a few of them. Precision Scale has many good pilots too. Out of all of them, most anyone is bound to find one to fit their needs. As for twin Air Pumps, are Bachmann's any better than Precision Scale's version? Lots of avenues of fun in this hobby; depends what a modeler enjoys most. > > Best of luck with your new equipment. I'd be curious to know how they work out for your purposes. > > Regards, > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 6:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > Like I say, Its fun..... > > For many years I've had a Sherline lathe and finally got a Sherline mill. The lathe is so old, its one of the first US series with brass ways. I bought it new somewhere around 1980. Twenty or so more years after that, I bought the mill.. > > I know most people don't have the like. But they aren't really required when you can buy precision tools like the Harbor Freight digital Calipers for as little as $10 on sale. Something like that, or just good locking machinists dividers are as techie as you need to be to make side-rods. > > The old boys published all the tips and DIY on that decades ago. I like the method where you use some old model rail to make your side rods. Accurate measuring, layout, a stout bench vice, some reliable files, and sharp drills are what you need to make side-rods. Most any strong sheet metal will work for rod material. > > My mill can drill and shape those parts quite well, but that tool is not a necessity to make them. Its just a very handy tool for a lot of things. > > The 3d printer cost me as much as a single fully equipped Walthers HO Diesel with the works, not a bad trade-off for me. A laser cutter is more of a dream tool that will let me have the Milwaukee Road passenger train of my dreams, I just might make it the new $600 low-power 3-watt one if I don't go and get the much more robust higher powered one of 45-watts. I haven't decided, yet have saved enough to fire off the order with the funds saved for either ready to go. > > LazerBlade... http://www.darklylabs.com > > That laser is more of a batch-making tool... like more than a dozen vintage locomotive cabs panels from one sheet of material in some minutes, or the body parts for a dozen TM early 900's trolleys. That's getting extreme. But the new $600 laser cutter makes that sort of dreaming possible. > > When it comes down to steamer pilots..... I like the one on the Monogram C&O Hudson kit. Its a one piece casting that can be made from folded sheet material. I also like the Selley rendition of the cast steel General Steel pilot. I guess both are vintage today. But they are perfect for casting masters for modern freight and passenger steam power. As for the old rod pilots, there are very nice DIY instructions for making those on the workbench, published and republished over the years. Lets just say I'm over prepared for this sort of thing. > > You might find it to be interesting that I hunted down one of the old Bachmann 2-8-0 Camelback boilers just to be able to recast the finely rendered twin air-pumps found on it. RTV casting is a great modelers tool for parts that just aren't available today. > > Looking at it, that power reverse package on the boiler needs to be on my Mantua models as well....and the air-tanks and domes while I'm at it. > > Like I've said. I enjoy planning what best way to use to complete a basket case..... or to use on future projects, > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Dec 5, 2014, at 4:53 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Missing the gearing or the motor is nothing to be concerned with. A modeler can just go to NWSL to replace gearing with something even better than original many times. Motors are readily available. I'm talking about parts on scarce and hard to find models, which can't be found anywhere. I DID say that Varney, Penn Line, Mantua -- and other popular manufacturers of the time -- are familiar enough to most of us to figure out, as to be of no concern. We (you & I), and others here, could probably assemble a Varney basket case blindfolded. > > > > It's those unavailable and necessary parts that require tooling as the only way to reproduce them that I'm talking about, and not every modeler has an extensive array of tools needed for these operations. I'm glad to see you picked up one of these Varney streamliners from the verge of death in a trash box and will be restoring it. Nothing like bringing something like that back to life, for a feeling of satisfaction when you've completed it on put it back on the rails. > > > > Agreed, besides the superstructure, the main parts you'd like to start with are the frame and drivers. As for the other parts though, you said it yourself when stating you'll be using your newly acquired 3-D printer and soon-to-arrive laser printer to make many parts. Not very many modeler have these tools to play with, but I wish you the best of success with them. Yes, it can be fun trying to figure out how to best complete a basket case -- if all the parts are there -- but it's frustrating to find it can't be completed, when impossible to find parts are missing (unless you have the tools, like you're getting, to fabricate them). Without a means of replacing the missing parts, it becomes no fun when you can't operate it. > > > > Side rods are not that easy to make accurately unless you have the machinery to make them with precision. The main thing needed is to have the spacing of the rod to driver mounting holes exactly the same as the spacing between the driver axles. If any one of those holes are off by little more than a few thousandths of an inch, it will create binding and you won't know where. Unless the modeler prefers to use only original parts, pilots can be had from a number of sources, including Yardbird Trains. The same is true for leading and trailing trucks, but steam chests are not readily interchangeable between manufacturers (or engine types). They're not really the parts I had in mind though. Take for example Jim Heckard's Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2. He's missing the valve gear for it. Where do you suggest he look to find it? This is but one example of so many partial rare locomotives we may come across which can't be completed -- unless we can fabricat e the missing parts -- which few people can. Others I remember seeing here are things like Dallas Modelcraft cast brass E-Units having no side panels, and others I can't quite recall. Yes, side panels could be fabricated out of plastic sheet, with properly measuring a similar unit (Hobbytown, Cary, AHM) to copy from, but most often the vintage modeler prefers to restore a vintage model using original vintage parts when possible. If it didn't matter to the modeler what the finished locomotive looked like, he might just as well go out and by a Bachmann. > > > > Ray W. > > > >> > >> In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:28:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > >> Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. > >> > >> However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. > >> > >> Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. > >> > >> Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. > >> > >> Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. > >> > >> Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. > >> > >> I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. > >> > >> Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. > >> > >> I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] > >> > >> Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? > >> > >> I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. > > > >>> On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or pro cedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > >>> > > >>> > Ray W. > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > >>>> > > >>>> > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon > >>>> > > > > > >

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23519	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

One question:  Can you make a MILW Arrow Creek or Marble Creek Lounge Obs on this new equipment?  If so, I may be one of your first customers < g >.  I see that lathe makes short work of any type projects it's made for.  You had enough work to get done on it to make it worthwhile buying -- and the way it sounds, you'll find many more uses for it.   You have great plans here with these new "tools,"  I know there's a big price difference between the $600 laser and the $3000 - $4000 one.  Since you were contemplating the $10,000 unit at one time, you may be sorry you didn't go for the $3000 - 4000 one rather than the $600 one you're thinking about now.  Think it over carefully.  Best of luck in you future endeavors.   Ray W.   In a message dated 12/6/2014 1:14:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: Once it got to the point that brass locomotives were taking off in price.... quite a while ago,  had browsed a couple of great how to build model locomotives books at the LHS and it suddenly didn't seem to be as bad an investment for the lathe. I weighed its cost against a moderately priced brass and it was about the same. It also help my decision that I had manually filed down the flanges on an AHM steamer and after seeing the same sort of operation on a lathe at work, realized it was a lot easier to do it on that tool. Soon I helped out a friend at the model railroad club by reducing the flanges on a big cardboard box of European cars........ It was so fast and easy it was almost sinful..... it was an honest 5-seconds per wheel after the first one with the tooling set-up I used. I window shopped for quite a while on hobby lathes until I was certain I was buying the right one. I gradually added the milling conversion parts and for almost 20-years did both milling and lathing with the tool. I got very lucky on the 3d printer. To begin with, it wasn't too pricy and I was just about ready to buy it when I stumbled across a store shelf display of the same machine with a great discount and an assurance that it had never been operated. Once I made certain it was the current model, after some hours I committed myself. I plan to add the optional heated table and move on to ABS 3d printing. I don't expect to get the highest resolution such as scale door knobs and rivets, a well formed blank that I'll then put on those small details will work out just fine. I made certain that others were getting that kind of quality from the machine, before I committed. And it came to me in the factory box with all of the factory parts and small tools it left the production line with. Walthers does have more expensive HO locomotives than this cost me. As for the laser, I wouldn't have considered it a few years ago. As I saved up for one the prices also dropped on me. I can get a super-deluxe one for not much over $3,000, perhaps $4,000 with additional gear. That's still pricy. But while saving up for a more expensive one, these appeared and leaving the idea on the back burner made me surprised after a couple of years that I had saved enough to get a $10,000 unit as I had first expected. But now I can do just fine with something near $3,000. That machine is going to pay me back with projects that no-one else is touching and if I find I'm making enough from it, like enough to buy an over $10,000 unit from the generated funds, I'll know I'm on the right track and wasn't mistaken about getting one of the better machines. Meanwhile my study of what is out there will settle me into a unit that is good for 3000 hours of use before the few-hundred dollar laser tube will need replacement, and I know I'll be able to afford that if I   decide to not go to the more expensive level. So I would be good for 3-4 years of part time use of the laser. Then that $600 laser came out. It's nice. it can't do all that the $3,000 to $4,000 laser can do........ But if I wimp out and go for it, I still can make my wanted projects with a different material. The dilemma is that if the economy goes south, I'd want that more expensive laser to feed myself, and if the bottom falls out, I won't be able to buy that sort of machine. So do I buy it now to make sure I get one, or not.......... I'm not sure. But will be in a few days. One way or another, I'll get a good laser for my needs, either well-powered or low-powered. if the bottom fell, I'd be making very affordable stuff with either cutter. But....... Well, you see how something can be over analyzed. I got a stock of basket case kits and surplus parts over the last few years. As RR cars became the nearly $60 items of RTR pieces of today and RR passenger cars hitting $130, I've tooled up to be able to used modified classic methods to make my own RR freight cars at under $5 each, fully decorated, not counting couplers. But inclusive of fully printed and 3d layered car panels that with the addition of laser cutting, will be easy to generate and assemble. Photo-real in some cases, graphic generated in others. I'm working on a dream. If the world doesn't become a nightmare, I'll be living a dream soon. If it goes bad, I have a plan to work through it. Here's to hoping that hobbies remain having a natural niche in a decent world.......... I need to get out more ......... Best to ya... Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi, USA On Dec 5, 2014, at 10:46 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Yes, now that you mention it, I recall reading about making side rods out of discarded rail.  Interesting article, if it was in MR or RMC -- I just don't remember where I saw it.  I've tried making them out of strong sheet metal but could never get the crank pin holes spaced exactly in proportion with the driver axle spacing.  Always had to elongate one or more of those holes (which left for a sloppy fit).  Okay, I see a digital calipers would help a lot; will try that next time.  Got to look into Harbor Freight's tools too. >  > I expected a 3-D printer would cost much more.  I know not everyone has a laser cutter -- unless they're in mass production of parts, which would make up for the price.  I can see a mill and a lathe would come in very handy.  Walthers offered the Unimat mill and lathes some time back, but had the Sherline versions more recently -- like the machines that you have.  Still, the average modeler just doesn't acquire equipment like this, just as you've said.  For one thing, the modeler has to weigh their costs with how often they'd use them.  I'd find them handy, but wouldn't anticipate using them extensively. >  > I like the selections of Cal Scale and Kemtron pilots, and a lot of other detail parts they offered.  Cal Scale had a nice General Steel Castings pilot, which can still be found on eBay from time to time.  I've used a few of them.  Precision Scale has many good pilots too.  Out of all of them, most anyone is bound to find one to fit their needs.  As for twin Air Pumps, are Bachmann's any better than Precision Scale's version?  Lots of avenues of fun in this hobby; depends what a modeler enjoys most. >  > Best of luck with your new equipment.  I'd be curious to know how they work out for your purposes. >  > Regards, >  > Ray W. >  >   > In a message dated 12/5/2014 6:55:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > Like I say, Its fun..... > > For many years I've had a Sherline lathe and finally got a Sherline mill. The lathe is so old, its one of the first US series with brass ways. I bought it new somewhere around 1980. Twenty or so more years after that, I bought the mill.. > > I know most people don't have the like. But they aren't really required when you can buy precision tools like the Harbor Freight digital Calipers for as little as $10 on sale. Something like that, or just good locking machinists dividers are as techie as you need to be to make side-rods. > > The old boys published all the tips and DIY on that decades ago. I like the method where you use some old model rail to make your side rods. Accurate measuring, layout, a stout bench vice, some reliable files, and sharp drills are what you need to make side-rods. Most any strong sheet metal will work for rod material. > > My mill can drill and shape those parts quite well, but that tool is not a necessity to make them. Its just a very handy tool for a lot of things. > > The 3d printer cost me as much as a single fully equipped Walthers HO Diesel with the works, not a bad trade-off for me. A laser cutter is more of a dream tool that will let me have the Milwaukee Road passenger train of my dreams, I just might make it the new $600 low-power 3-watt one if I don't go and get the much more robust higher powered one of 45-watts. I haven't decided, yet have saved enough to fire off the order with the funds saved for either ready to go. > > LazerBlade... http://www.darklylabs.com > > That laser is more of a batch-making tool... like more than a dozen vintage locomotive cabs panels from one sheet of material in some minutes, or the body parts for a dozen TM early 900's trolleys. That's getting extreme. But the new $600 laser cutter makes that sort of dreaming possible. > > When it comes down to steamer pilots..... I like the one on the Monogram C&O Hudson kit. Its a one piece casting that can be made from folded sheet material. I also like the Selley rendition of the cast steel General Steel pilot. I guess both are vintage today. But they are perfect for casting masters for modern freight and passenger steam power. As for the old rod pilots, there are very nice DIY instructions for making those on the workbench, published and republished over the years. Lets just say I'm over prepared for this sort of thing. > > You might find it to be interesting that I hunted down one of the old Bachmann 2-8-0 Camelback boilers just to be able to recast the finely rendered twin air-pumps found on it. RTV casting is a great modelers tool for parts that just aren't available today. > > Looking at it, that power reverse package on the boiler needs to be on my Mantua models as well....and the air-tanks and domes while I'm at it. > > Like I've said. I enjoy planning what best way to use to complete a basket case..... or to use on future projects, > > Best to ya, > Mike Bauers > Milwaukee, Wi > > On Dec 5, 2014, at 4:53 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Missing the gearing or the motor is nothing to be concerned with. A modeler can just go to NWSL to replace gearing with something even better than original many times. Motors are readily available. I'm talking about parts on scarce and hard to find models, which can't be found anywhere. I DID say that Varney, Penn Line, Mantua -- and other popular manufacturers of the time -- are familiar enough to most of us to figure out, as to be of no concern. We (you & I), and others here, could probably assemble a Varney basket case blindfolded. > > > > It's those unavailable and necessary parts that require tooling as the only way to reproduce them that I'm talking about, and not every modeler has an extensive array of tools needed for these operations. I'm glad to see you picked up one of these Varney streamliners from the verge of death in a trash box and will be restoring it. Nothing like bringing something like that back to life, for a feeling of satisfaction when you've completed it on put it back on the rails. > > > > Agreed, besides the superstructure, the main parts you'd like to start with are the frame and drivers. As for the other parts though, you said it yourself when stating you'll be using your newly acquired 3-D printer and soon-to-arrive laser printer to make many parts. Not very many modeler have these tools to play with, but I wish you the best of success with them. Yes, it can be fun trying to figure out how to best complete a basket case -- if all the parts are there -- but it's frustrating to find it can't be completed, when impossible to find parts are missing (unless you have the tools, like you're getting, to fabricate them). Without a means of replacing the missing parts, it becomes no fun when you can't operate it. > > > > Side rods are not that easy to make accurately unless you have the machinery to make them with precision. The main thing needed is to have the spacing of the rod to driver mounting holes exactly the same as the spacing between the driver axles. If any one of those holes are off by little more than a few thousandths of an inch, it will create binding and you won't know where. Unless the modeler prefers to use only original parts, pilots can be had from a number of sources, including Yardbird Trains. The same is true for leading and trailing trucks, but steam chests are not readily interchangeable between manufacturers (or engine types). They're not really the parts I had in mind though. Take for example Jim Heckard's Conover B&O S-1 2-10-2. He's missing the valve gear for it. Where do you suggest he look to find it? This is but one example of so many partial rare locomotives we may come across which can't be completed -- unless we can fabricat e the missing parts -- which few people can. Others I remember seeing here are things like Dallas Modelcraft cast brass E-Units having no side panels, and others I can't quite recall. Yes, side panels could be fabricated out of plastic sheet, with properly measuring a similar unit (Hobbytown, Cary, AHM) to copy from, but most often the vintage modeler prefers to restore a vintage model using original vintage parts when possible. If it didn't matter to the modeler what the finished locomotive looked like, he might just as well go out and by a Bachmann. > > > > Ray W. > > > >> > >> In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:28:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > >> Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. > >> > >> However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. > >> > >> Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. > >> > >> Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. > >> > >> Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. > >> > >> Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. > >> > >> I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. > >> > >> Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. > >> > >> I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] > >> > >> Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? > >> > >> I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. > > > >>> On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or pro cedures/steps that leave us puzzle d. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > >>> > > >>> > Ray W. > >>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > >>>> > > >>>> > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon > >>>> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     vintageHO-digest@yahoogroups.com     vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23520	From: Bill Scott	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: eBay chuckle

And I was once allowed to withdraw a bid when I explained that I had misread the description of an item!  I didn't think that would ever happen. Bill Scott On Dec 5, 2014, at 11:59 PM, Doug Harris digbee@... [vintageHO] wrote:   On 06/12/14 17:48, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > Thanks! Didn't realize that eBay would be aware (or care) of the going > price. Ebay generally don't give a damn, but on one occasion I actually had a pink (real live person) call me from California about a complaint I made of my graphics copyright being breached. The were being used on coffee mugs, but finally we decided that the hassle wasn't worth the effort.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23521	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Those Milw Rd ob's have been on my gotta have list since I saw the RMC drawings on them ages ago. Last year one of my eBay findings was a small group of HO passenger cars that included a hand-built Milw Rd observation. Someone out there figured out how to make that car and make it look right. I just had to get that to be able to make templates from it. Nothing commercial is planned from that. But it and the Walthers versions allow me to make templates that build into the cars without having to do the math from the detailed drawings. In the Microsoft Train Sim world are lots of custom creations of unique trains. The later Milwaukee passenger train is one of those. There are apps to un-arc the files and then unfold the 3d model file into build-able paper models.I started on that path and then a few disasters got in my way from urban criminals. I think I still have my MSTS files for that train. You've reminded me that I need to search my remaining hard drives to see if I still have those files. There are quite a few unique RR models in their freeware collection that aren't available in the HO model railroad world. The fold-together model approach seems to be a usable route to getting those interesting models onto one train layout. One of the old 1910 GE doodlebugs comes to mind from that...... To get me back more in line with the Basket Case topic, I finally was able to get a substantial element of a McKeen passenger railcar. I've long wanted one. Back when I had no real money in reserve and was living paycheck to paycheck, I just couldn't find one I could afford, when I could afford it. These days I have some savings and when I try to get one of the McKeens its either an overpriced collectors value or I just don't succeed in an auction. A couple of weeks ago I noticed a basket-case offer on eBay of some etched passenger trolley sides and what looked like the formed and etched body wrapper of a McKeen car. Fortunately almost no one else noticed them and I finally have a good looking McKeen body wrapper to build into the full car I've missed out on all these years. Its got to be the hardest part of the car to make with its rimmed portholes and its rivet pattern. Somehow the thoughts of making those porthole frames always failed to allow me to come up with a good way of making them. Ironically, now that I look at the wrapper I did come-up with a way to properly make and install them. Isn't that the way it goes? Still, finding the commercial wrapper alone will make it much easier to build a rather nice looking McKeen car, and with a better drive than the much more expensive complete ones out there.. That's the sort of Basket-Case it is great to find. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 6, 2014, at 6:33 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > One question: Can you make a MILW Arrow Creek or Marble Creek Lounge Obs on this new equipment? If so, I may be one of your first customers < g >. I see that lathe makes short work of any type projects it's made for. You had enough work to get done on it to make it worthwhile buying -- and the way it sounds, you'll find many more uses for it. > > You have great plans here with these new "tools," I know there's a big price difference between the $600 laser and the $3000 - $4000 one. Since you were contemplating the $10,000 unit at one time, you may be sorry you didn't go for the $3000 - 4000 one rather than the $600 one you're thinking about now. Think it over carefully. Best of luck in you future endeavors. > > Ray W. > >> In a message dated 12/6/2014 1:14:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: >> Once it got to the point that brass locomotives were taking off in price.... quite a while ago, had browsed a couple of great how to build model locomotives books at the LHS and it suddenly didn't seem to be as bad an investment for the lathe. >> >> I weighed its cost against a moderately priced brass and it was about the same. It also help my decision that I had manually filed down the flanges on an AHM steamer and after seeing the same sort of operation on a lathe at work, realized it was a lot easier to do it on that tool. Soon I helped out a friend at the model railroad club by reducing the flanges on a big cardboard box of European cars........ It was so fast and easy it was almost sinful..... it was an...........

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23522	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Latest Acquisition

Picked up a Walthers Piker that had been sitting on the consignment shelf at a dealer forever. A bit disappointed to see that the truck was plastic. Wasn't it metal in the original version? I think this is a later kit in the small orange box. -- Rick Jones "Some things need and deserve to be lampooned and ridiculed, religion and politics among them. All the more so if they can't take a joke." -Cary Chilson

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23523	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition

Yes, later run kits had the nylon trucks. Actually they performed better than the older cast metal ones............ Although the Pikers wouldn't be run in long enough trains to see the difference. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:36 AM, Rick Jones wrote: > Picked up a Walthers Piker that had been sitting on the consignment > shelf at a dealer forever. A bit disappointed to see that the truck was > plastic. Wasn't it metal in the original version? I think this is a > later kit in the small orange box.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23524	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition

Following up on what Mike has said, and going back in the Walthers catalogs as far as mine will allow in finding the earliest Pikers, they're offered in 1961 with part of their description stating: "Try the Piker.  You get our Fun-To-Build Construction with wood, metal and diecast parts . . . "   (could have even been offered before then).  There's no mention of plastic or nylon.  This same description excerpt was part of the Piker's ad for at least the next 19 years (it's still described this way through to 1980).  I don't have Walthers 1981 or 1982, but in 1983 (and 1984, etc.) I notice a slight change, stated as: "This is a Craft Train Kit made of wood, metal and die castings (no plastic)."  These later run kits -- with the nylon wheels -- would have to have been produced only somewhere within the next 7 (or fewer) years as, by 1991 Walthers had discontinued all of there metal-sided passenger cars and came out with a couple of Amfleet I kits. In '92, they came out with two more -- of the same (Amtrak Coach and Amtrak Food Service) -- only these new ones were undecorated.  This should give some idea of when the Piker was made with nylon wheels.    Ray Wetzel            In a message dated 12/6/2014 10:54:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Yes, later run kits had the nylon trucks. Actually they performed better than the older cast metal ones............ Although the Pikers wouldn't be run in long enough trains to see the difference. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:36 AM, Rick Jones wrote: > Picked up a Walthers Piker that had been sitting on the consignment > shelf at a dealer forever. A bit disappointed to see that the truck was > plastic. Wasn't it metal in the original version? I think this is a > later kit in the small orange box.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23525	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases

Mike, I can understand that you have fun recreating parts, but I believe that the great preponderance of modelers have no idea how to do this, have no interest in doing it, and wouldn’t consider doing it.   While you have the tools to machine parts, the thought of how much has been spent to recreate  a set of side rods, is staggering.   Then you have those strange people who feel that if a part is not original, the model loses most value.  They prefer non-running, incomplete, shelved pieces, to seeing them run around a track as they did when new, which was a large part of their charm. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23526	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Back in the early 70's there was an article in MR on making passenger cars put of f laminated tissue paper on a wooden form.  There was fellow in CXjicago who was making creek series skytops by this method and selling them at swap meets.  The first time I picked on up in my hands (at Wheaton), it felt like brass.  I almost bought one, wish I had. It was done in brass by Soho in the 70's, worst case scenario one could do a reasonable facsimile from  a Walther's Rapids series  with new sides  (not perfect but only the most diehard fan of the Road would notice the differences in the end.) Don On 12/6/2014 9:19 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Those Milw Rd ob's have been on my gotta have list since I saw the RMC drawings on them ages ago. Last year one of my eBay findings was a small group of HO passenger cars that included a hand-built Milw Rd observation. Someone out there figured out how to make that car and make it look right. I just had to get that to be able to make templates from it. Nothing commercial is planned from that. But it and the Walthers versions allow me to make templates that build into the cars without having to do the math from the detailed drawings. In the Microsoft Train Sim world are lots of custom creations of unique trains. The later Milwaukee passenger train is one of those. There are apps to un-arc the files and then unfold the 3d model file into build-able paper models.I started on that path and then a few disasters got in my way from urban criminals. I think I still have my MSTS files for that train. You've reminded me that I need to search my remaining hard drives to see if I still have those files. There are quite a few unique RR models in their freeware collection that aren't available in the HO model railroad world. The fold-together model approach seems to be a usable route to getting those interesting models onto one train layout. One of the old 1910 GE doodlebugs comes to mind from that...... To get me back more in line with the Basket Case topic, I finally was able to get a substantial element of a McKeen passenger railcar. I've long wanted one. Back when I had no real money in reserve and was living paycheck to paycheck, I just couldn't find one I could afford, when I could afford it. These days I have some savings and when I try to get one of the McKeens its either an overpriced collectors value or I just don't succeed in an auction. A couple of weeks ago I noticed a basket-case offer on eBay of some etched passenger trolley sides and what looked like the formed and etched body wrapper of a McKeen car. Fortunately almost no one else noticed them and I finally have a good looking McKeen body wrapper to build into the full car I've missed out on all these years. Its got to be the hardest part of the car to make with its rimmed portholes and its rivet pattern. Somehow the thoughts of making those porthole frames always failed to allow me to come up with a good way of making them. Ironically, now that I look at the wrapper I did come-up with a way to properly make and install them. Isn't that the way it goes? Still, finding the commercial wrapper alone will make it much easier to build a rather nice looking McKeen car, and with a better drive than the much more expensive complete ones out there.. That's the sort of Basket-Case it is great to find. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 6, 2014, at 6:33 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > One question: Can you make a MILW Arrow Creek or Marble Creek Lounge Obs on this new equipment? If so, I may be one of your first customers < g >. I see that lathe makes short work of any type projects it's made for. You had enough work to get done on it to make it worthwhile buying -- and the way it sounds, you'll find many more uses for it. > > You have great plans here with these new "tools," I know there's a big price difference between the $600 laser and the $3000 - $4000 one. Since you were contemplating the $10,000 unit at one time, you may be sorry you didn't go for the $3000 - 4000 one rather than the $600 one you're thinking about now. Think it over carefully. Best of luck in you future endeavors. > > Ray W. > >> In a message dated 12/6/2014 1:14:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: >> Once it got to the point that brass locomotives were taking off in price.... quite a while ago, had browsed a couple of great how to build model locomotives books at the LHS and it suddenly didn't seem to be as bad an investment for the lathe. >> >> I weighed its cost against a moderately priced brass and it was about the same. It also help my decision that I had manually filed down the flanges on an AHM steamer and after seeing the same sort of operation on a lathe at work, realized it was a lot easier to do it on that tool. Soon I helped out a friend at the model railroad club by reducing the flanges on a big cardboard box of European cars........ It was so fast and easy it was almost sinful..... it was an........... -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23527	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition

On 12/6/2014 9:36 AM, Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Picked up a Walthers Piker that had been sitting on the consignment shelf at a dealer forever. A bit disappointed to see that the truck was plastic. Wasn't it metal in the original version? I think this is a later kit in the small orange box. -- Rick Jones "Some things need and deserve to be lampooned and ridiculed, religion and politics among them. All the more so if they can't take a joke." -Cary Chilson The original kit was wood roof and floor with sheet metal sides and A U-505 solid die-cast 6 wheel track.  The latest version was all plastic from China.  The demise of the silver anniversary cars and the rise of the truck being plastic reasonably coincided, it COULD have come from the factory that way, or someone could have substituted the new plastic truck on an old kit. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23528	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases

It is more like you bought a car so that you could then drive to get groceries. You certainly wouldn't just park the car after that one trip to the store. You knew of friends that  traveled to a great park on the far side of the state, others that traveled to see the sights on the Coast, and that great hobby shop you head about thats about an hour's drive away, even a couple of model railroad conventions in the coming months that were modest drives to get to. So while you made your trip to the grocery store you had already planned what you would be doing next with the car, even for quite a while, and had those things in mind before you bought the car. It is sure not a case of buying the car for that one trip to the grocery store. In my case, the deeper motivation has been the desire from my teen years  to have prototype Milwaukee Road passenger trains and the regional trolleys of a number of different systems. The earliest tools for the lathe have lasted since I bought them in the late 70's. Even the mill that I bought about 10 years ago has held up just fine and is using some of the toolingI bought for the lathe around 1980. The price was much less than the price would be today and I've enjoyed making things with them that I could not have made without them over those many years.  Remember each cost me less than a single contemporary Walthers HO locomotive of today and these buys have been spread out over decades. In essence, I have spent a small fraction of the price of a contemporary Walthers HO diesel of today, over each year for a long time. Or I spent less than I would have for regular visits to the corner bar or daily buys and smoking of cigarettes. It's just that the stuff I bought stayed with me and is just as usable today as when I bought them, while I have been able to use them over the decades. Sure I found some kits and some other models for some of what I want over the years. But never more than a small sampling of what should be a few of some specific item like the TM 900 cars and certainly never a model of the early Milwaukee Rd doodlebug that Frank Taylor modeled in the late forties or thirties and wrote out so well that the construction article made it into a book. Today a limited edition of that model would well cost over a thousand dollars, bring in fewer than 20 of the models and still cost more than my first two machines, combined, cost me. There's the trade-off, one model can cost what two specialized tool sets cost me. Recently a very nicely recovered, even reborn HO Varney streamliner with a lot of non-original parts like the tender, sold on eBay for a bit under $600.......... 150-percent of what I paid for my recent 3d printer.  I think I'd rather have the printer that I already have over 60 files downloaded and ready to run through it. Later I'll be running my own stuff on i as I get comfortable with 3d CAD. That one model would have been nice...... but one of the projects here is a twelve car version of the classic Mantua streamlined New-Era light-weight passenger train that only came as an articulated 3-car train and engine. That means modified and re-engineered three car sets that can go mid-train. One of the Basket case eBay wins this year was a few boxes of the kit bodies of that Mantua train, two engine shells, and two complete car sets. A very few of the bodies will be modded to become new third cars that can couple with additional cars, have passenger door access and be a key part of a new mid-train articulated sub-set. of matching Mantua Streamliner cars. I have to cast new modded bodies, mill and turn parts, make all new chassis's, full power drives for the locomotives as well as make more locomotives, and finally restore the aged condition of the two original car sets to factory fresh while dupe'ing the some faded, some missing train logo's and lettering to restore the originals while making the rest match the ages ago original Mantua factory condition. The end goal is to have two original sets with sound equipped and modern drive locomotives and another two train-sets that are long and lanky as seen in the similar new-Age train illustrations of the day with its 12-cars or so behind the locomotive. I found some quite interesting under $5 sound units in the LHS, these units are going to be pulse-jet powered. Then there is the squirreled away plans for the never built C&O turbine powered Train-X that is a bit like both the built AeroTrain and the dreamed up Mantua Streamliner, yet different . I think I know where those are sleeping in a drawer. That is going to either use some hand-sculpting to make the engine cowling and turret-cab, or the 3d printer. At least the four Mantua streamliners in original and expanded versions will be in operation by the end of next year, and likely be in operation on the massive NAPM HO layout in full jet-screaming sound. Like I said, you never buy a tool for just one immediate job. It's more of a case of getting a tool for what else you can do with it. Instead of a pack or two of cig's, I got the tools. By keeping my eyes open and bit by bit getting Mantua Streamliner basket cases, I'll end up with more than one train and some improved on the original trains. If I hadn't gone for the basket case age-worn car -sets, those cars would have remained junk cases. I'll enjoy remaking their specific logos and lettering with my computer and printer, refreshing the paint jobs, rewiring the cars and led lighting them. Once I get the in the mail second volume of the Milwaukee Road streamlined passenger cars, I'll start the prep work to laser cut sides while I test out ways of photo-printing and assembling the cars. Mixed in there will be the 3-5 never build Milwaukee Road cars shown in some books that cry out to be modeled. Oh and way back, my first HO steamer is a Mantua 2-8-2 with a blown motor. She's coming back  with a replacement of the snapped off plastic pilot with a cast General Steel pilot, regeared drive thanks to an old MR article, the added bulb on the tender replaced by LED, it's added firebox fire-light and original headlight bulbs replaced as well as some other things done to her........ and some sister basket cases and swap-meet cases. New castings, replaced cast-on handgrabs with real grabs and most likely modern welded versions of the all-weather cab my first eventually got. I think I'll laser-cut those cabs and cast better trailing trucks as I look into better performing tender trucks for them. So to come back, I can justify both the buying of Basket Case models and even some exotic tools over the years. So next year when I'm laser-cutting TMER&L, CNS&M, and Milwaukee Road bodies, Running those restored and expanded Mantua Streamliners; my cutting back on cig's and bar-trips to get the tools that make it easier will have been a good thing. As for those side rods on the original equipment. You likely don't realize how easy it is to actually duplicate them with a small mil in your choice of materials and then solder-plating them to look like the original tin-plate or clean castings, or to simply RTV cast them in metal-filled resin that polishes up to match real metal. It only takes a bit of time and the old measure three times then cut method. I have a number of old Aristo-Craft Columbia's and Bicycles that are being restored that way. In one perspective, the cost of the basket cases and the tooling adds up to about what fully restored versions of the models would cost at auction............ and I suspect less cost for me. At the end of the day, I have that car that made it's trip to the grocery store and went so many other places for me. Because of the tools I have more models than if I had only bought the premium restored versions of the models, and still can restore and create others with the tools. Its another version of that old cry, 'We can save the World'..................... Basket case recovery and they're not going to make it for you, so you can make it instead.... version. I remember my decision to go into model railroading. It was instead of modeling just a boat, a plane, or a car; Model Railroading built entire worlds. I like that approach. [eBay just informed me that I have some more classic model railroading mags and a choice basket case of Eggerbund [sp?] HOn30 coming my way. I plan to lift some more techniques from the mags and to expand the original Eggerbund trackage. I've already worked out ways to duplicate the odd-ball ties and lay more track, even make more clone-original pattern cars for it.......... I like to think of that as being part of the fun of this hobby.] The reason a modeler goes in this direction, if not to this level, is that he wants models that if made, he would buy. After a while he learns that others made their wants and sees ways of doing that himself. the catch is that you'll also find ways of making a lot of something quickly and you might think that is a good way to go. Its just a short step to it would be more real if I had more than one of this thing and here's how this and that fellow did it. It sure would be easier to make it that way and have several. After those discovery's the thoughts of why did I wait so long for someone to make this for me, when I could just make it myself, become stronger and stronger. Eventually you make the leap after seeing someone do just that at a train show or a monthly model RR meet clinic. You soon realize that you don' have to be just like the " great preponderance of modelers". You can do as you see other do and make it happen for yourself. You become happier. The hobby does that for me........ since 1968 when I switched to model railroading, There's always something new to try, even if it's a new way to make something that is already old. That's why I merged with the great preponderance of modelers, in the first place. I admit I'm polluted by my job. All day long I see impossible things made from boring raw materials. It makes me want to do the same in my hobby. Still, it's FUN! Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 6, 2014, at 10:45 AM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Mike, I can understand that you have fun recreating parts, but I believe that the great preponderance of modelers have no idea how to do this, have no interest in doing it, and wouldn’t consider doing it.   While you have the tools to machine parts, the thought of how much has been spent to recreate  a set of side rods, is staggering.   Then you have those strange people who feel that if a part is not original, the model loses most value.  They prefer non-running, incomplete, shelved pieces, to seeing them run around a track as they did when new, which was a large part of their charm. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23529	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition

It was an easy upgrade by Walthers.  The nylon truck was Athearn, I believe. Walthers was already buying and stocking loads of those Athearn parts. It would have been an easy change to stop making their own and instead provide the Athearn truck in their kits. It would save the cost of making their own and its several parts by substituting just one purchased part. This was the time that they were winding down their in-house metal casting. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 6, 2014, at 3:47 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: On 12/6/2014 9:36 AM, Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] wrote: Picked up a Walthers Piker that had been sitting on the consignment  shelf at a dealer forever. A bit disappointed to see that the truck was  plastic. Wasn't it metal in the original version? I think this is a  later kit in the small orange box. --  Rick Jones The original kit was wood roof and floor with sheet metal sides and A U-505 solid die-cast 6 wheel track.  The latest version was all plastic from China.  The demise of the silver anniversary cars and the rise of the truck being plastic reasonably coincided, it COULD have come from the factory that way, or someone could have substituted the new plastic truck on an old kit. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23530	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

This fellow did it in styrene. A masterful job of shaping and cutting. Perhaps he made a former and vac-u-formed his shell in this case. It's the extended observation version of the Skytop with interior. From the subtle marks on the shell, he must have laid-out the windows and then cut them, Except for the very end wall at the vestibule, the car body seems to be a single formed piece of styrene. I'll send some pictures along late today.. It's amazing the things you can find in some of the eBay auctions. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 6, 2014, at 3:44 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Back in the early 70's there was an article in MR on making passenger cars put of f laminated tissue paper on a wooden form. There was fellow in CXjicago who was making creek series skytops by this method and selling them at swap meets. The first time I picked on up in my hands (at Wheaton), it felt like brass. I almost bought one, wish I had. > > It was done in brass by Soho in the 70's, worst case scenario one could do a reasonable facsimile from a Walther's Rapids series with new sides (not perfect but only the most diehard fan of the Road would notice the differences in the end.) > > Don > > On 12/6/2014 9:19 AM, Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO] wrote: >> Those Milw Rd ob's have been on my gotta have list since I saw the RMC drawings on them ages ago. >> >> Last year one of my eBay findings was a small group of HO passenger cars that included a hand-built Milw Rd observation. Someone out there figured out how to make that car and make it look right. I just had to get that to be able to make templates from it. Nothing commercial is planned from that. But it and the Walthers versions allow me to make templates that build into the cars without having to do the math from the detailed drawings. >> >> In the Microsoft Train Sim world are lots of custom creations of unique trains. The later Milwaukee passenger train is one of those. There are apps to un-arc the files and then unfold the 3d model file into build-able paper models.I started on that path and then a few disasters got in my way from urban criminals. >> ...............

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23531	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Latest Acquisition

On 12/6/2014 3:47 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote: > The original kit was wood roof and floor with sheet metal sides and A > U-505 solid die-cast 6 wheel track. The latest version was all plastic > from China. The demise of the silver anniversary cars and the rise of > the truck being plastic reasonably coincided, it COULD have come from > the factory that way, or someone could have substituted the new plastic > truck on an old kit. This one has the aforementioned plastic passenger truck, wood roof and floor, stamped metal sides, and cast metal ends and details. There's some wood shapes and interior details printed on cardstock too. I surmise this falls somewhere between the plastic truck replacing the cast metal truck and the conversion to a fully plastic kit. -- Rick Jones "The devotees of the party in power are smug and arrogant. The devotees of the party out of power are insane." -Jane Galt

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23532	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly meant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23533	From: Willard Seehorn	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

The truck says Tenshodo. The couplers look like Baker couplers. Willard At 07:36 PM 12/6/2014, you wrote: I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly meant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23534	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: The DIY Skytop

Not bad for a handmade job of converting a AHM  passenger car... A wet sanding, fresh paint and decals, and some window glass will make it a great model. Maybe some more detailing to the interior. Just one more basket case model to be saved from the trash. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23535	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

With the trucks being located so far in from the ends and the number of "portholes" on the body, I can;'t image it's a commercially made model despite these trucks being Tenshodo.  The crudeness is added to by the rough paint job but I can tell you it's not an International Models Products -- nor is it a Tenshodo, which produced F-units for IMP.  I think PFM would show more accuracy than this.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 12/6/2014 7:36:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly meant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one o f the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23536	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Yes it is an early Tenshodo and those are Tenshodo’s version of the Baker coupler. Tenshodo’s early F units left a lot to be desired and even when they were improved the still had the worse shaped nose in the industry,   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 7:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?     The truck says Tenshodo. The couplers look like Baker couplers. Willard At 07:36 PM 12/6/2014, you wrote: I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly meant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt   This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23537	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/6/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

This looks nothing like the F units that International Model Products offered in their catalogs going back to 1950  -- and made for them by Tenshodo!  IMP was established in late 1949 (first ad appearing in December '49 MR).  Tenshodo was established sometime prior to IMP, but in that same year, 1949.  If this were a Tenshodo, which I extremely doubt, it would have to have been one of their crude pilot models before they started production, as their production models looked fairly realistic and more true to prototype than this rendition.  This one looks more like a scratch built model using Tenshodo trucks and whatever other small commercially made parts were available at that time -- like the gear boxes and even the Baker couplers which were also used on IMP models.  The frame appears to have been fabricated only because of the very obvious far-removed position of the trucks from the prototype, which any model producer would have made more correctly.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 12/7/2014 12:50:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Yes it is an early Tenshodo and those are Tenshodo’s version of the Baker coupler. Tenshodo’s early F units left a lot to be desired and even when they were improved the still had the worse shaped nose in the industry, John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 7:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vint ageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   The truck says Tenshodo. The couplers look like Baker couplers. Willard At 07:36 PM 12/6/2014, you wrote: I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly m eant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23538	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Well, the trucks being so far in from the end is how the rear ends of FT B’s were. And the port holes are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A I once had given to me.   It really could anything and only getting it and stripping off that latex wall paint will give any further information.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 1:44 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?     This looks nothing like the F units that International Model Products offered in their catalogs going back to 1950  -- and made for them by Tenshodo!  IMP was established in late 1949 (first ad appearing in December '49 MR).  Tenshodo was established sometime prior to IMP, but in that same year, 1949.  If this were a Tenshodo, which I extremely doubt, it would have to have been one of their crude pilot models before they started production, as their production models looked fairly realistic and more true to prototype than this rendition.  This one looks more like a scratch built model using Tenshodo trucks and whatever other small commercially made parts were available at that time -- like the gear boxes and even the Baker couplers which were also used on IMP models.  The frame appears to have been fabricated only because of the very obvious far-removed position of the trucks from the prototype, which any model producer would have made more correctly.   Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 12/7/2014 12:50:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Yes it is an early Tenshodo and those are Tenshodo’s version of the Baker coupler. Tenshodo’s early F units left a lot to be desired and even when they were improved the still had the worse shaped nose in the industry, John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 7:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vint ageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   The truck says Tenshodo. The couplers look like Baker couplers. Willard At 07:36 PM 12/6/2014, you wrote: I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly m eant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23539	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

John, (and all who replied) Thanks for the insight and thoughts on this one. I knew the old Tenshodo fT models were distorted, but this one seemed even worse. I didn't see the 'Tenshodo' on the truck lettering, only 'Japan' and I appreciate that bit of info too. It is unlikely that someone would take a Tenshodo FT Drive and scratch build an FT shell over it. It is certainly a reminder that there was a steep learning curve in the 50s for the brass manufacturers. Again, thanks to all who replied. Matt Coleman ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <sprinthag@...> wrote : Yes it is an early Tenshodo and those are Tenshodo’s version of the Baker coupler. Tenshodo’s early F units left a lot to be desired and even when they were improved the still had the worse shaped nose in the industry,   John Hagen    This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23540	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

On 12/6/2014 10:45 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   With the trucks being located so far in from the ends and the number of "portholes" on the body, I can;'t image it's a commercially made model despite these trucks being Tenshodo.  The crudeness is added to by the rough paint job but I can tell you it's not an International Models Products -- nor is it a Tenshodo, which produced F-units for IMP.  I think PFM would show more accuracy than this.   Ray Wetzel   In a message dated 12/6/2014 7:36:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly meant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one o f the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt Some FT's did have the fifth porthole (not sure if the location is right). The FT was probably the first diesel Tenshodo did, it very well could be. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23541	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Agreed, the trucks on FT B's were more set in from the ends, but this looks excessive.  As you state that the port holes (on FT B's) are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A you once had, this would indicate that there where 4 portholes.  No FT A ever had more than 4 portholes and if any H0 manufacturer did, it was incorrect.   Yes, stripping that horrible paint off may give a clue.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 12/7/2014 3:02:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Well, the trucks being so far in from the end is how the rear ends of FT B’s were. And the port holes are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A I once had given to me. It really could anything and only getting it and stripping off that latex wall paint will give any further information. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 1:44 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   This looks nothing like the F units that International Model Products offered in their catalogs going back to 1950  -- and made for them by Tenshodo!  IMP was established in late 1949 (first ad appearing in December '49 MR).  Tenshodo was established sometime prior to IMP, but in that same year, 1949.  If this were a Tenshodo, which I extremely doubt, it would have to have been one of their crude pilot models before they started production, as their production models looked fairly realistic and more true to prototype than this rendition.  This one looks more like a scratch built model using Tenshodo trucks and whatever other small commercially made parts were available at that time -- like the gear boxes and even the Baker couplers which were also used on IMP models.  The frame appears to have been fabricated only because of the very obvious far-removed position of the trucks from the prototype, which any model producer would have made more correctly. Ray Wetzel In a message dated 12/7/2014 12:50:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Yes it is an early Tenshodo and those are Tenshodo’s version of the Baker coupler. Tenshodo’s early F units left a lot to be desired and even when they were improved the still had the worse shaped nose in the industry, John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 7:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vint ageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   The truck says Tenshodo. The couplers look like Baker couplers. Willard At 07:36 PM 12/6/2014, you wrote: I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly m eant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23542	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: The DIY Skytop [5 Attachments]

Attachments : Looks like a good car and hope to see the final results. Take care, Chuck   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2014 10:15 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vintageHO] The DIY Skytop [5 Attachments]     [Attachment(s) from Mike Bauers included below] Not bad for a handmade job of converting a AHM  passenger car...   A wet sanding, fresh paint and decals, and some window glass will make it a great model. Maybe some more detailing to the interior.   Just one more basket case model to be saved from the trash.   Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi               Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23543	From: hbutlerlists	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

I found a couple photos online of other FT B units by Tenshodo that show the same fifth porthole, one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TENSHODO-UNION-PACIFIC-FTA-B-FREIGHT-RUNS-GREAT-F7B-DUMMY-BOTH-SHOW-WELL-/301418744446?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item462df50a7e   and another on Flickr (part of a set of photos showing the A & B): OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - Road: Great Northern (GN) Description: EMD FT A-B SET Importer: Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) Catalog: 106/107 Builder: Tenshodo Year(s): 1954-1969 Qty Made:375 A-B sets in GN OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - R... A few photos of some old, but significant historical models from the dawn of scale brass models. These mid 1950's PFM / Tenshodo brass models were among the... View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23544	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

When the prototype FT's were first introduced by GM's EMC in 1939, all of the FT B's had only four portholes on each side.  In later years and after GM's EMD came into being, and as these units were made up until 1945, some FT B's had a 5th porthole on one side (only).  This was the hostler's porthole to allow for moving this unit within the yard independently of the FT A unit, by it was not the normal production run(s) of these B units.  For that reason, most model manufacturers who made FT B's produced them as the original prototypes, with four portholes on each side; made it easier to produce them too  It's surprising that Tenshodo deviated from the normal configuration, which I wasn't aware of.  None of their (or IMP's) catalogs show this side; perhaps they may have even produced both versions since they went that far.  In any case, this shows that Tenshodo was keeping up with everything they knew about in the railroad industry in offering faithfully reproduced models.  Thanks for the pic.    Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 12/7/2014 11:25:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I found a couple photos online of other FT B units by Tenshodo that show the same fifth porthole, one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TENSHODO-UNION-PACIFIC-FTA-B-FREIGHT-RUNS-GREAT-F7B-DUMMY-BOTH-SHOW-WELL-/301418744446?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item462df50a7e and another on Flickr (part of a set of photos showing the A & B): OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - Road: Great Northern (GN) Description: EMD FT A-B SET Importer: Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) Catalog: 106/107 Builder: Tenshodo Year(s): 1954-1969 Qty Made:375 A-B sets in GN OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - R... A few photos of some old, but significant historical models from the dawn of scale brass models. These mid 1950's PFM / Tenshodo brass models were among the... View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23545	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases

I'd like to side-step this a bit to the issue of recreating parts. As detail parts for steamers and more obscure models continue to dry up, I looked into and experimented with RTV casting of out-of-production parts. More obscure and specialized would be the Walthers North Shore and early trolleys. In some cases specific parts have not been made since the 1950's. Common parts like the roof stock haven't been made since the 1970's. These are the old sheet metal sides with wood roof and cast parts kits. Basket cases and partial kits are still around. You'll run into situations where you have a unit that is missing one cast end or the roof stock. Or you'll get hold of some of the additional sides Walthers produced separately.  RTV casting is different and uncomplicated. You can take the only cast end you have and make an exact duplicate to complete the model, you can cast a roof blank from the roof of any kit or basket case to complete another. If you got some of the additional Walthers made sides you can cast the parts needed for them from a partial kit or a Basket case and make use of those sides. You need not be stopped on a project due to 50-year out of production parts. If you are partial to a particular Selley detail part, which I think went out of production a couple of years ago, you can replicate the single example you were able to find and use them on your fleet. I happen to really like their HO General Steel cast pilot. and got a couple of them before they stopped production. I think my Mantua 2-8-2's should all have it. The plus to this is that the plastic/resin cast pilots can not short across the rails like a metal one can. If you get a basket case deal of something like three Tyco 4-6-0's that are in good shape. But two of them are missing their slip-in boiler front, you can cast the single remaining one and restore the other two with it. If you'd like to update those 4-6-0's with more modern air-pumps. But you can't get that through your hobby shop and you don't find them on-line; you might have the air-pumps on your old AHM 0-8-0 catch your eye and by RTV duplicate casting those have just the air-pumps you need for your three Tyco 4-6-0's. And so on..... No tools needed, just a bit of time spent watching very short videos on how to make the molds and cast the parts. Think of it as an extension of the hobby to get vintage models into full operating condition. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 7, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Mike Bauers  wrote: Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: From: "'Denis Long'  Mike, I can understand that you have fun recreating parts, but I believe that the great preponderance of modelers have no idea how to do this, have no interest in doing it, and wouldn’t consider doing it.   While you have the tools to machine parts, the thought of how much has been spent to recreate  a set of side rods, is staggering.   Then you have those strange people who feel that if a part is not original, the model loses most value.  They prefer non-running, incomplete, shelved pieces, to seeing them run around a track as they did when new, which was a large part of their charm. Denis Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23546	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases

All well and good, but you first need a "master" (one part) to make the mold with.  On more obscure models, if you don't even have one of the parts you need, there's no way to make the mold as there's nothing to make the mold with.  Even on more popular models of those days, like Bowser's cast brass mountain -- obtained from Knapp-- If I had ten of them, yet was missing all 10 of the boiler fronts, I couldn't finish one locomotive.  That's only an example, I realize, and you might say to purchase a similar diameter Cal Scale smoke box front, but this still doesn't mean I'm making duplicate castings, as I can't . . . and Cal Scale smoke box fronts are getting scarcer too.  Same goes for a Conover 2-10-2 that's missing it's unique Baker Valve gear.  Without anything to copy it from, no duplicate castings -- or stampings -- can be made, and radius rods and other similar parts come in lengths & types specific type crosshead, for the wheel arrangement and the driver size.  Can't just throw a set of Mantua valve gear on in hopes in will operate without binding.  Makes it much easier (possible!) to recreate a part when you already have one of them, but that doesn't always happen, and not all locomotives are designed to be assembled with the same kind of parts that need to fit in places specific to assemble that one obscure locomotive.    Ray W.     In a message dated 12/7/2014 1:52:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I'd like to side-step this a bit to the issue of recreating parts. As detail parts for steamers and more obscure models continue to dry up, I looked into and experimented with RTV casting of out-of-production parts. More obscure and specialized would be the Walthers North Shore and early trolleys. In some cases specific parts have not been made since the 1950's. Common parts like the roof stock haven't been made since the 1970's. These are the old sheet metal sides with wood roof and cast parts kits. Basket cases and partial kits are still around. You'll run into situations where you have a unit that is missing one cast end or the roof stock. Or you'll get hold of some of the additional sides Walthers produced separately.  RTV casting is different and uncomplicated. You can take the only cast end you have and make an exact duplicate to complete the model, you can cast a roof blank from the roof of any kit or basket case to complete another. If you got some of the additional Walthers made sides you can cast the parts needed for them from a partial kit or a Basket case and make use of those sides. You need not be stopped on a project due to 50-year out of production parts. If you are partial to a particular Selley detail part, which I think went out of production a couple of years ago, you can replicate the single example you were able to find and use them on your fleet. I happen to really like their HO General Steel cast pilot. and got a couple of them before they stopped production. I think my Mantua 2-8-2's should all have it. The plus to this is that the plastic/resin cast pilots can not short across the rails like a metal one can. If you get a basket case deal of something like three Tyco 4-6-0's that are in good shape. But two of them are missing their slip-in boiler front, you can cast the single remaining one and restore the other two with it. If you'd like to update those 4-6-0's with more modern air-pumps. But you can't get that through your hobby shop and you don't find them on-line; you might have the air-pumps on your old AHM 0-8-0 catch your eye and by RTV duplicate casting those have just the air-pumps you need for your three Tyco 4-6-0's. And so on..... No tools needed, just a bit of time spent watching very short videos on how to make the molds and cast the parts. Think of it as an extension of the hobby to get vintage models into full operating condition. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 7, 2014, at 12:24 PM, Mike Bauers  wrote: Mike Bauers Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: From: "'Denis Long'  Mike, I can understand that you have fun recreating parts, but I believe that the great preponderance of modelers have no idea how to do this, have no interest in doing it, and wouldn’t consider doing it.   While you have the tools to machine parts, the thought of how much has been spent to recreate  a set of side rods, is staggering.   Then you have those strange people who feel that if a part is not original, the model loses most value.  They prefer non-running, incomplete, shelved pieces, to seeing them run around a track as they did when new, which was a large part of their charm. Denis Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23547	From: Mike Bauers	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases

I wouldn't worry about it........ If you don't have the part, you won't be making duplicates. If it really motivates you, you'll find something similar and modify it to be your needed master or hit the DIY articles and make that part just like thousands of model railroaders have done since the start of the hobby in the 1920's or so. Or..... you know a friend that will help you make the master or will make it for you. The goal is to get that vintage model into finished condition. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 7, 2014, at 1:56 PM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > All well and good, but you first need a "master" (one part) to make the mold with. On more obscure models, if you don't even have one of the parts you need, there's no way to make the mold as there's nothing to make the mold with. Even on more popular models of those days, like Bowser's cast brass mountain -- obtained from Knapp-- If I had ten of them, yet was missing all 10 of the boiler fronts, I couldn't finish one locomotive. That's only an example, I realize, and you might say to purchase a similar diameter Cal Scale smoke box front, but this still doesn't mean I'm making duplicate castings, as I can't . . . and Cal Scale smoke box fronts are getting scarcer too. Same goes for a Conover 2-10-2 that's missing it's unique Baker Valve gear. Without anything to copy it from, no duplicate castings -- or stampings -- can be made, and radius rods and other similar parts come in lengths & types specific type crosshead, for the wheel arrangement and the driver size. Can't just throw a set of Mantua valve gear on in hopes in will operate without binding. Makes it much easier (possible!) to recreate a part when you already have one of them, but that doesn't always happen, and not all locomotives are designed to be assembled with the same kind of parts that need to fit in places specific to assemble that one obscure locomotive. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/7/2014 1:52:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > I'd like to side-step this a bit to the issue of recreating parts. > > > As detail parts for steamers and more obscure models continue to dry up, I looked into and experimented with RTV casting of out-of-production parts. > > More obscure and specialized would be the Walthers North Shore and early trolleys. In some cases specific parts have not been made since the 1950's. Common parts like the roof stock haven't been made since the 1970's. These are the old sheet metal sides with wood roof and cast parts kits. > > Basket cases and partial kits are still around. You'll run into situations where you have a unit that is missing one cast end or the roof stock. Or you'll get hold of some of the additional sides Walthers produced separately. RTV casting is different and uncomplicated. You can take the only cast end you have and make an exact duplicate to complete the model, you can cast a roof blank from the roof of any kit or basket case to complete another. If you got some of the additional Walthers made sides you can cast the parts needed for them from a partial kit or a Basket case and make use of those sides. > > You need not be stopped on a project due to 50-year out of production parts. > > If you are partial to a particular Selley detail part, which I think went out of production a couple of years ago, you can replicate the single example you were able to find and use them on your fleet. I happen to really like their HO General Steel cast pilot. and got a couple of them before they stopped production. I think my Mantua 2-8-2's should all have it. The plus to this is that the plastic/resin cast pilots can not short across the rails like a metal one can. > > If you get a basket case deal of something like three Tyco 4-6-0's that are in good shape. But two of them are missing their slip-in boiler front, you can cast the single remaining one and restore the other two with it. > > If you'd like to update those 4-6-0's with more modern air-pumps. But you can't get that through your hobby shop and you don't find them on-line; you might have the air-pumps on your old AHM 0-8-0 catch your eye and by RTV duplicate casting those have just the air-pumps you need for your three Tyco 4-6-0's. > > And so on..... No tools needed, just a bit of time spent watching very short videos on how to make the molds and cast the parts. > > Think of it as an extension of the hobby to get vintage models into full operating condition.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23548	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

On 12/7/2014 10:25 AM, hbutlerlists@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I found a couple photos online of other FT B units by Tenshodo that show the same fifth porthole, one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TENSHODO-UNION-PACIFIC-FTA-B-FREIGHT-RUNS-GREAT-F7B-DUMMY-BOTH-SHOW-WELL-/301418744446?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item462df50a7e   and another on Flickr (part of a set of photos showing the A & B): OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - Road: Great Northern (GN) Description: EMD FT A-B SET Importer: Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) Catalog: 106/107 Builder: Tenshodo Year(s): 1954-1969 Qty Made:375 A-B sets in GN OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - R... A few photos of some old, but significant historical models from the dawn of scale brass models. These mid 1950's PFM / Tenshodo brass models were among the... View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Harry Butler Now I'm tempted to bid on the silly thing Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23549	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

When the prototype FT were introduced the A & B units were semi-permanently coupled (i.e. they used draw bars instead of couplers) so there was little thought to having to move a B unit on its own. Later in the production some railroads had the foresight to understand the flexibility having the units able to coupled and uncoupled at will. I believe having couplers became an option and also, hostler controls for moving them about the engine terminals. Since it would be nice to have some vision, even though limited, to see what the hell you were doing, the hostler window was installed on the side where the control stand was located. And I have seen other Tenshodo FT’s with the hostlers porthole.   Ya takes that model, ya strips the paint and re-paint and decal it and you will have a much nicer appearing model of an very distorted FT B.  Witness the photo of the GN units previously posted here. And if you think you thing those FT’s looked crappy, there were a few steamers that would beat it with an ugly stick for being out of proportion. Hell, all the Japanese builders had to go in the early days were photos. They weren’t over here to take the photos that they really needed, or to measure the units or dig up manufacturers construction drawings. They lived and worked in a land where nothing resembled an F unit.   So far as Tenshodo and other early diesel models were concerned the first one that really impressed any one was the GP-7/9’s. They were the cats barks back in the day with their scale hood and separate grab irons, etc. Crud by today’s standards they still look okay, especially if your benchmark are the Athearn widely acclaimed 50’2 era product.   And, as time went on, Tenshodo’s F units became much more prototypical in all areas EXCEPT the nose contours. The rest of the car bodies were basically built up using sheet brass, castings and other materials but the noses were likely formed by a die set which would have been a considerable expense to replace. As I read a quote from one of the Tenshodo kahoona’s they were not about to change as long as the things were still selling. And they must have sold well for a long time considering the numbers of them that pop up on eBay at swaps.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 11:52 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?     When the prototype FT's were first introduced by GM's EMC in 1939, all of the FT B's had only four portholes on each side.  In later years and after GM's EMD came into being, and as these units were made up until 1945, some FT B's had a 5th porthole on one side (only).  This was the hostler's porthole to allow for moving this unit within the yard independently of the FT A unit, by it was not the normal production run(s) of these B units.  For that reason, most model manufacturers who made FT B's produced them as the original prototypes, with four portholes on each side; made it easier to produce them too  It's surprising that Tenshodo deviated from the normal configuration, which I wasn't aware of.  None of their (or IMP's) catalogs show this side; perhaps they may have even produced both versions since they went that far.  In any case, this shows that Tenshodo was keeping up with everything they knew about in the railroad industry in offering faithfully reproduced models.  Thanks for the pic.    Ray Wetzel        In a message dated 12/7/2014 11:25:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I found a couple photos online of other FT B units by Tenshodo that show the same fifth porthole, one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TENSHODO-UNION-PACIFIC-FTA-B-FREIGHT-RUNS-GREAT-F7B-DUMMY-BOTH-SHOW-WELL-/301418744446?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item462df50a7e   and another on Flickr (part of a set of photos showing the A & B): OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - Road: Great Northern (GN) Description: EMD FT A-B SET Importer: Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) Catalog: 106/107 Builder: Tenshodo Year(s): 1954-1969 Qty Made:375 A-B sets in GN OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - R... A few photos of some old, but significant historical models from the dawn of scale brass models. These mid 1950's PFM / Tenshodo brass models were among the... View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23550	From: roblmclear	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Sorry Ray but the Santa Fe had FTB's with a fifth porthole on one side as the B unit had seperate engine controls at that point and the fifth porthole was for him to use. Rob McLear Australia.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23551	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Rob,   Looks like you missed my post on some FT B's having the fifth porthole ("hostler's porthole") on one side to enable these guys to move these B unit within the facilities without being coupled to the FT A units.  While a very many FT sets were permanently coupled, there were still sets that used knuckle couplers and could be separated -- like Santa Fe's.  The fifth porthole, on one side only, allowed the hostler to see where he was going, albeit with limited vision.   Ray W.     In a message dated 12/7/2014 8:13:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Sorry Ray but the Santa Fe had FTB's with a fifth porthole on one side as the B unit had seperate engine controls at that point and the fifth porthole was for him to use. Rob McLear Australia.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23552	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/7/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

John,   Tenshodo became known for their GN models and their GN GP-7/9's in particular, factory painted.  Thanks for your input on imported models being out of proportion in the early days and your notion that Japanese builders had only photos to go by.  While this may have been true with some builders - and I'm not sure on this -- please let me add the IMP Takara was closely associated with Tenshodo and was based on Union Square, in New York City.  Some of their catalogs fully explain that they had free access to American prototype blue prints and would send them back to Japan to ensure true reproduction in H0 scale.   Ray W.       In a message dated 12/7/2014 7:44:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   When the prototype FT were introduced the A & B units were semi-permanently coupled (i.e. they used draw bars instead of couplers) so there was little thought to having to move a B unit on its own. Later in the production some railroads had the foresight to understand the flexibility having the units able to coupled and uncoupled at will. I believe having couplers became an option and also, hostler controls for moving them about the engine terminals. Since it would be nice to have some vision, even though limited, to see what the hell you were doing, the hostler window was installed on the side where the control stand was located. And I have seen other Tenshodo FT’s with the hostlers porthole. Ya takes that model, ya strips the paint and re-paint and decal it and you will have a much nicer appearing model of an very distorted FT B.  Witness the photo of the GN units previously posted here. And if you think you thing those FT’s looked crappy, there were a few steamers that would beat it with an ugly stick for being out of proportion. Hell, all the Japanese builders had to go in the early days were photos. They weren’t over here to take the photos that they really needed, or to measure the units or dig up manufacturers construction drawings. They lived and worked in a land where nothing resembled an F unit. So far as Tenshodo and other early diesel models were concerned the first one that really impressed any one was the GP-7/9’s. They were the cats barks back in the day with their scale hood and separate grab irons, etc. Crud by today’s standards they still look okay, especially if your benchmark are the Athearn widely acclaimed 50’2 era product. And, as time went on, Tenshodo’s F units became much more prototypical in all areas EXCEPT the nose contours. The rest of the car bodies were basically built up using sheet brass, castings and other materials but the noses were likely formed by a die set which would have been a considerable expense to replace. As I read a quote from one of the Tenshodo kahoona’s they were not about to change as long as the things were still selling. And they must have sold well for a long time considering the numbers of them that pop up on eBay at swaps. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 11:52 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   When the prototype FT's were first introduced by GM's EMC in 1939, all of the FT B's had only four portholes on each side.  In later years and after GM's EMD came into being, and as these units were made up until 1945, some FT B's had a 5th porthole on one side (only).  This was the hostler's porthole to allow for moving this unit within the yard independently of the FT A unit, by it was not the normal production run(s) of these B units.  For that reason, most model manufacturers who made FT B's produced them as the original prototypes, with four portholes on each side; made it easier to produce them too  It's surprising that Tenshodo deviated from the normal configuration, which I wasn't aware of.  None of their (or IMP's) catalogs show this side; perhaps they may have even produced both versions since they went that far.  In any case, this shows that Tenshodo was keeping up with everything they knew about in the railroad industry in offering faithfully reproduced models.  Thanks for the pic.  Ray Wetzel    In a message dated 12/7/2014 11:25:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I found a couple photos online of other FT B units by Tenshodo that show the same fifth porthole, one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TENSHODO-UNION-PACIFIC-FTA-B-FREIGHT-RUNS-GREAT-F7B-DUMMY-BOTH-SHOW-WELL-/301418744446?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item462df50a7e and another on Flickr (part of a set of photos showing the A & B): OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - Road: Great Northern (GN) Description: EMD FT A-B SET Importer: Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) Catalog: 106/107 Builder: Tenshodo Year(s): 1954-1969 Qty Made:375 A-B sets in GN OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - R... A few photos of some old, but significant historical models from the dawn of scale brass models. These mid 1950's PFM / Tenshodo brass models were among the... View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23553	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

True but I think the time frame has something to do with this. If Tenshodo had access to all the data necessary to produce true to scale models like their GP-7/9’s at the time they came out with the FT’s someone in their design department had to be blind. Or something. I mean, really, those FT’s were basically a caricature of the real thing and were very bad in proportion and detail. If that was their idea of “close enough” it missed the by a wide margin. If it was just the nose section that was off, maybe. But their later F units with well proportioned car bodies would suggest better information availability even though the same nose section was continued. When the FT’s were first introduced I looked at the ads and reviews and decided that even if I had the money to buy them way back then, I wouldn’t. But when the GP’s first came out, I was wishing I could buy them. Something changed somewhere and I have to believe it was the quality of the data available at the time.   Besides, that was what I read somewhere, probably many years ago on the subject. Maybe true, maybe not but it sounded at least plausible at the time.   In the early 50’s, even the late 40’s occasional photos of steam locos custom built for GI’s stationed in Japan would show up in MR. Although not nearly as detailed as the later stuff they were generally dimensionally close and looked decent. Now these were done on individual orders to small builders and, being steam, did not have huge amounts of data to go by. But it is likely that the guy that ordered them had the basic data, such as driver dia. And maybe wheel bases etc. and had prototype photos. However, as I stated, there were some real bad early steamers from early production runs. Since the ability to make well proportioned models was available I gotta go with lack of proper data to do the job.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 9:04 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?     John,   Tenshodo became known for their GN models and their GN GP-7/9's in particular, factory painted.  Thanks for your input on imported models being out of proportion in the early days and your notion that Japanese builders had only photos to go by.  While this may have been true with some builders - and I'm not sure on this -- please let me add the IMP Takara was closely associated with Tenshodo and was based on Union Square, in New York City.  Some of their catalogs fully explain that they had free access to American prototype blue prints and would send them back to Japan to ensure true reproduction in H0 scale.   Ray W.       In a message dated 12/7/2014 7:44:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   When the prototype FT were introduced the A & B units were semi-permanently coupled (i.e. they used draw bars instead of couplers) so there was little thought to having to move a B unit on its own. Later in the production some railroads had the foresight to understand the flexibility having the units able to coupled and uncoupled at will. I believe having couplers became an option and also, hostler controls for moving them about the engine terminals. Since it would be nice to have some vision, even though limited, to see what the hell you were doing, the hostler window was installed on the side where the control stand was located. And I have seen other Tenshodo FT’s with the hostlers porthole. Ya takes that model, ya strips the paint and re-paint and decal it and you will have a much nicer appearing model of an very distorted FT B.  Witness the photo of the GN units previously posted here. And if you think you thing those FT’s looked crappy, there were a few steamers that would beat it with an ugly stick for being out of proportion. Hell, all the Japanese builders had to go in the early days were photos. They weren’t over here to take the photos that they really needed, or to measure the units or dig up manufacturers construction drawings. They lived and worked in a land where nothing resembled an F unit. So far as Tenshodo and other early diesel models were concerned the first one that really impressed any one was the GP-7/9’s. They were the cats barks back in the day with their scale hood and separate grab irons, etc. Crud by today’s standards they still look okay, especially if your benchmark are the Athearn widely acclaimed 50’2 era product. And, as time went on, Tenshodo’s F units became much more prototypical in all areas EXCEPT the nose contours. The rest of the car bodies were basically built up using sheet brass, castings and other materials but the noses were likely formed by a die set which would have been a considerable expense to replace. As I read a quote from one of the Tenshodo kahoona’s they were not about to change as long as the things were still selling. And they must have sold well for a long time considering the numbers of them that pop up on eBay at swaps. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 11:52 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   When the prototype FT's were first introduced by GM's EMC in 1939, all of the FT B's had only four portholes on each side.  In later years and after GM's EMD came into being, and as these units were made up until 1945, some FT B's had a 5th porthole on one side (only).  This was the hostler's porthole to allow for moving this unit within the yard independently of the FT A unit, by it was not the normal production run(s) of these B units.  For that reason, most model manufacturers who made FT B's produced them as the original prototypes, with four portholes on each side; made it easier to produce them too  It's surprising that Tenshodo deviated from the normal configuration, which I wasn't aware of.  None of their (or IMP's) catalogs show this side; perhaps they may have even produced both versions since they went that far.  In any case, this shows that Tenshodo was keeping up with everything they knew about in the railroad industry in offering faithfully reproduced models.  Thanks for the pic.  Ray Wetzel    In a message dated 12/7/2014 11:25:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I found a couple photos online of other FT B units by Tenshodo that show the same fifth porthole, one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TENSHODO-UNION-PACIFIC-FTA-B-FREIGHT-RUNS-GREAT-F7B-DUMMY-BOTH-SHOW-WELL-/301418744446?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item462df50a7e and another on Flickr (part of a set of photos showing the A & B): OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - Road: Great Northern (GN) Description: EMD FT A-B SET Importer: Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) Catalog: 106/107 Builder: Tenshodo Year(s): 1954-1969 Qty Made:375 A-B sets in GN OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - R... A few photos of some old, but significant historical models from the dawn of scale brass models. These mid 1950's PFM / Tenshodo brass models were among the... View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23554	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Attachments : t.jpg s.jpg r.jpg q.jpg p.jpg Mike, Ray, All, Mike! I could not agree with you more! Personally, I love basket cases. I love seeing the change, especially the restoration progress shots. I have several flickr photo sets dedicated to their restorations. I have a friend in VA who has restored several of mine and had he not done them, most likely they would have been long gone or thrown into someone's scrap pile or worse yet... used as parts in some hideous kitbash! I finally convinced him to post his restoration pictures too. I have attached a few pictures of the basket cases. I have also attached for you to see the dramatic final pics of the ones that were completed. I have attached links to the photo sets of the ones which were restored if anyone cares to see the results step by step. Here is the list of the attached (If nothing else, look at the last photo series below, it is by far the most dramatic): 1. Brass Ken Kidder HOn3 0-4-0 "Steam Dummy" (not completed) 2. HO Scale Brass-Red Ball 0-4-4-0 Logging Tank Engine (not completed but I did attach a pic of a completed model found on line to show what it looks like) 3. Varney Brass Sand Cast Streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific B&O Steam Locomotive & passenger car set (On the fence about calling the set a basket case, but it is close) 4. Akane Models Ho Brass C&O H-8 2-6-6-6 Allegheny https://www.flickr.com/photos/57293605@N07/sets/72157645256775409               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Kosmos Timber Company's #11 HO Brass standard gauge 2-6-6-2   (Stamped # 37 of only 208 units made in that first year) https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626581557343/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   4-8-8-4 Big Boy Tenshodo Brass HO Signature Series https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626008528046/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo     Ho Scale Brass "Basket Case" Samhongsa of Korea Imported 4-6-6-4 NP Z-8 Challenger https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624442816551/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Due to a recent flaming attempt directed at me by others on another on-line forum, I just wanted to apologize to all those in advance who believe by my showing of any of these locomotive pictures that I am in any way showing off what I have or bragging. It is truly not my intention to make anyone jealous or feel envious. Although I am proud of owning them, mostly I am an enthusiastic hobbyist as are many of you. The difference may be, I really enjoy sharing what rare and unique pieces I find instead of hiding them away on some shelf or in a box. In doing so, I have established relationships with others world wide I may otherwise might have ever known, the least of which being one of the editors of the Brown Book on Brass. The hobby brings me a lot of joy and pleasure.  The pieces were created to be seen and and enjoyed by all, no matter the current caretaker. Sincerely, Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 3:28 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23555	From: Garry Spear	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]

Guys,  I find these pictures very, very interesting.  I own a Kosmos Timber Company's #11 HO Brass standard gauge 2-6-6-2, and after 40 years or so I get to see the drive.  Mine still runs great with the original motor and gears. Garry Spear On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Sean Naylor a69mustang4me@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Mike, Ray, All, Mike! I could not agree with you more! Personally, I love basket cases. I love seeing the change, especially the restoration progress shots. I have several flickr photo sets dedicated to their restorations. I have a friend in VA who has restored several of mine and had he not done them, most likely they would have been long gone or thrown into someone's scrap pile or worse yet... used as parts in some hideous kitbash! I finally convinced him to post his restoration pictures too. I have attached a few pictures of the basket cases. I have also attached for you to see the dramatic final pics of the ones that were completed. I have attached links to the photo sets of the ones which were restored if anyone cares to see the results step by step. Here is the list of the attached (If nothing else, look at the last photo series below, it is by far the most dramatic): 1. Brass Ken Kidder HOn3 0-4-0 "Steam Dummy" (not completed) 2. HO Scale Brass-Red Ball 0-4-4-0 Logging Tank Engine (not completed but I did attach a pic of a completed model found on line to show what it looks like) 3. Varney Brass Sand Cast Streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific B&O Steam Locomotive & passenger car set (On the fence about calling the set a basket case, but it is close) 4. Akane Models Ho Brass C&O H-8 2-6-6-6 Allegheny https://www.flickr.com/photos/57293605@N07/sets/72157645256775409               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Kosmos Timber Company's #11 HO Brass standard gauge 2-6-6-2   (Stamped # 37 of only 208 units made in that first year) https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626581557343/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   4-8-8-4 Big Boy Tenshodo Brass HO Signature Series https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626008528046/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo     Ho Scale Brass "Basket Case" Samhongsa of Korea Imported 4-6-6-4 NP Z-8 Challenger https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624442816551/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Due to a recent flaming attempt directed at me by others on another on-line forum, I just wanted to apologize to all those in advance who believe by my showing of any of these locomotive pictures that I am in any way showing off what I have or bragging. It is truly not my intention to make anyone jealous or feel envious. Although I am proud of owning them, mostly I am an enthusiastic hobbyist as are many of you. The difference may be, I really enjoy sharing what rare and unique pieces I find instead of hiding them away on some shelf or in a box. In doing so, I have established relationships with others world wide I may otherwise might have ever known, the least of which being one of the editors of the Brown Book on Brass. The hobby brings me a lot of joy and pleasure.  The pieces were created to be seen and and enjoyed by all, no matter the current caretaker. Sincerely, Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 3:28 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23556	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]

Sean,   Any chance you could send the pics as jpg ?  My browsers are apparently too lousy to be able to open these flickr pics as sent.  The IE won't do it and when I entered the address onto Firefox as a search I got a message that this "did not match any documents."  If they can't be sent any other way, no problem.  I usually can't get to open attachments anyway so I just skip them and resign myself to that.  Thanx,   Ray     In a message dated 12/8/2014 8:45:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Mike, Ray, All, Mike! I could not agree with you more! Personally, I love basket cases. I love seeing the change, especially the restoration progress shots. I have several flickr photo sets dedicated to their restorations. I have a friend in VA who has restored several of mine and had he not done them, most likely they would have been long gone or thrown into someone's scrap pile or worse yet... used as parts in some hideous kitbash! I finally convinced him to post his restoration pictures too. I have attached a few pictures of the basket cases. I have also attached for you to see the dramatic final pics of the ones that were completed. I have attached links to the photo sets of the ones which were restored if anyone cares to see the results step by step. Here is the list of the attached (If nothing else, look at the last photo series below, it is by far the most dramatic): 1. Brass Ken Kidder HOn3 0-4-0 "Steam Dummy" (not completed) 2. HO Scale Brass-Red Ball 0-4-4-0 Logging Tank Engine (not completed but I did attach a pic of a completed model found on line to show what it looks like) 3. Varney Brass Sand Cast Streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific B&O Steam Locomotive & passenger car set (On the fence about calling the set a basket case, but it is close) 4. Akane Models Ho Brass C&O H-8 2-6-6-6 Allegheny https://www.flickr.com/photos/57293605@N07/sets/72157645256775409 View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Kosmos Timber Company's #11 HO Brass standard gauge 2-6-6-2   (Stamped # 37 of only 208 units made in that first year) https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626581557343/ < /tr>   View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Tenshodo Brass HO Signature Series https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626008528046/ View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Ho Scale Brass "Basket Case" Samhongsa of Korea Imported 4-6-6-4 NP Z-8 Challenger https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624442816551/ View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Due to a recent flaming attempt directed at me by others on another on-line forum, I just wanted to apologize to all those in advance who believe by my showing of any of these locomotive pictures that I am in any way showing off what I have or bragging. It is truly not my intention to make anyone jealous or feel envious. Although I am proud of owning them, mostly I am an enthusiastic hobbyist as are many of you. The difference may be, I really enjoy sharing what rare and unique pieces I find instead of hiding them away on some shelf or in a box. In doing so, I have established relationships with others world wide I may otherwise might have ever known, the least of which being one of the editors of the Brown Book on Bra ss. The hobby brings me a lot of joy and pleasure.  The pieces were created to be seen and and enjoyed by all, no matter the current caretaker. Sincerely, Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 3:28 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23557	From: Chuck Higdon	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]

Attachments : Well they look real nice and I enjoyed seeing them.   Take care, Chuck Higdon- check out my FEC layout at https://picasaweb.google.com/102920461774912857361       From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, December 8, 2014 8:45 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]     [Attachment(s) from Sean Naylor included below] Mike, Ray, All,   Mike! I could not agree with you more! Personally, I love basket cases. I love seeing the change, especially the restoration progress shots. I have several flickr photo sets dedicated to their restorations. I have a friend in VA who has restored several of mine and had he not done them, most likely they would have been long gone or thrown into someone's scrap pile or worse yet... used as parts in some hideous kitbash! I finally convinced him to post his restoration pictures too. I have attached a few pictures of the basket cases. I have also attached for you to see the dramatic final pics of the ones that were completed. I have attached links to the photo sets of the ones which were restored if anyone cares to see the results step by step. Here is the list of the attached (If nothing else, look at the last photo series below, it is by far the most dramatic):   1. Brass Ken Kidder HOn3 0-4-0 "Steam Dummy" (not completed)   2. HO Scale Brass-Red Ball 0-4-4-0 Logging Tank Engine (not completed but I did attach a pic of a completed model found on line to show what it looks like)   3. Varney Brass Sand Cast Streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific B&O Steam Locomotive & passenger car set (On the fence about calling the set a basket case, but it is close)   4. Akane Models Ho Brass C&O H-8 2-6-6-6 Allegheny https://www.flickr.com/photos/57293605@N07/sets/72157645256775409               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo       Kosmos Timber Company's #11 HO Brass standard gauge 2-6-6-2   (Stamped # 37 of only 208 units made in that first year) https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626581557343/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo     4-8-8-4 Big Boy Tenshodo Brass HO Signature Series https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626008528046/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo     Ho Scale Brass "Basket Case" Samhongsa of Korea Imported 4-6-6-4 NP Z-8 Challenger https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624442816551/               View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo     Due to a recent flaming attempt directed at me by others on another on-line forum, I just wanted to apologize to all those in advance who believe by my showing of any of these locomotive pictures that I am in any way showing off what I have or bragging. It is truly not my intention to make anyone jealous or feel envious. Although I am proud of owning them, mostly I am an enthusiastic hobbyist as are many of you. The difference may be, I really enjoy sharing what rare and unique pieces I find instead of hiding them away on some shelf or in a box. In doing so, I have established relationships with others world wide I may otherwise might have ever known, the least of which being one of the editors of the Brown Book on Brass. The hobby brings me a lot of joy and pleasure.  The pieces were created to be seen and and enjoyed by all, no matter the current caretaker.   Sincerely, Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!   From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 3:28 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle     Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23558	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Ray, I did attache a dozen or so photos as jpgs of each engine I listed. They should be available on the VintageHO yahoo page. As for the photos from the links.. Sorry I can not send more as there are hundreds of them posted to flickr in all, throughout all the photo sets combined. Sorry.. :(   Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 8, 2014 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Sean,   Any chance you could send the pics as jpg ?  My browsers are apparently too lousy to be able to open these flickr pics as sent.  The IE won't do it and when I entered the address onto Firefox as a search I got a message that this "did not match any documents."  If they can't be sent any other way, no problem.  I usually can't get to open attachments anyway so I just skip them and resign myself to that.  Thanx,   Ray     In a message dated 12/8/2014 8:45:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Mike, Ray, All, Mike! I could not agree with you more! Personally, I love basket cases. I love seeing the change, especially the restoration progress shots. I have several flickr photo sets dedicated to their restorations. I have a friend in VA who has restored several of mine and had he not done them, most likely they would have been long gone or thrown into someone's scrap pile or worse yet... used as parts in some hideous kitbash! I finally convinced him to post his restoration pictures too. I have attached a few pictures of the basket cases. I have also attached for you to see the dramatic final pics of the ones that were completed. I have attached links to the photo sets of the ones which were restored if anyone cares to see the results step by step. Here is the list of the attached (If nothing else, look at the last photo series below, it is by far the most dramatic): 1. Brass Ken Kidder HOn3 0-4-0 "Steam Dummy" (not completed) 2. HO Scale Brass-Red Ball 0-4-4-0 Logging Tank Engine (not completed but I did attach a pic of a completed model found on line to show what it looks like) 3. Varney Brass Sand Cast Streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific B&O Steam Locomotive & passenger car set (On the fence about calling the set a basket case, but it is close) 4. Akane Models Ho Brass C&O H-8 2-6-6-6 Allegheny https://www.flickr.com/photos/57293605@N07/sets/72157645256775409 View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Kosmos Timber Company's #11 HO Brass standard gauge 2-6-6-2   (Stamped # 37 of only 208 units made in that first year) https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626581557343/ < /tr>   View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Tenshodo Brass HO Signature Series https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626008528046/ View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Ho Scale Brass "Basket Case" Samhongsa of Korea Imported 4-6-6-4 NP Z-8 Challenger https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624442816551/ View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Due to a recent flaming attempt directed at me by others on another on-line forum, I just wanted to apologize to all those in advance who believe by my showing of any of these locomotive pictures that I am in any way showing off what I have or bragging. It is truly not my intention to make anyone jealous or feel envious. Although I am proud of owning them, mostly I am an enthusiastic hobbyist as are many of you. The difference may be, I really enjoy sharing what rare and unique pieces I find instead of hiding them away on some shelf or in a box. In doing so, I have established relationships with others world wide I may otherwise might have ever known, the least of which being one of the editors of the Brown Book on Bra ss. The hobby brings me a lot of joy and pleasure.  The pieces were created to be seen and and enjoyed by all, no matter the current caretaker. Sincerely, Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 3:28 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23559	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Ray, You could try just "googling" the titles as an image search. They should come up that way and then you can find a link to the photo set below each picture.   Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 8, 2014 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Sean,   Any chance you could send the pics as jpg ?  My browsers are apparently too lousy to be able to open these flickr pics as sent.  The IE won't do it and when I entered the address onto Firefox as a search I got a message that this "did not match any documents."  If they can't be sent any other way, no problem.  I usually can't get to open attachments anyway so I just skip them and resign myself to that.  Thanx,   Ray     In a message dated 12/8/2014 8:45:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Mike, Ray, All, Mike! I could not agree with you more! Personally, I love basket cases. I love seeing the change, especially the restoration progress shots. I have several flickr photo sets dedicated to their restorations. I have a friend in VA who has restored several of mine and had he not done them, most likely they would have been long gone or thrown into someone's scrap pile or worse yet... used as parts in some hideous kitbash! I finally convinced him to post his restoration pictures too. I have attached a few pictures of the basket cases. I have also attached for you to see the dramatic final pics of the ones that were completed. I have attached links to the photo sets of the ones which were restored if anyone cares to see the results step by step. Here is the list of the attached (If nothing else, look at the last photo series below, it is by far the most dramatic): 1. Brass Ken Kidder HOn3 0-4-0 "Steam Dummy" (not completed) 2. HO Scale Brass-Red Ball 0-4-4-0 Logging Tank Engine (not completed but I did attach a pic of a completed model found on line to show what it looks like) 3. Varney Brass Sand Cast Streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific B&O Steam Locomotive & passenger car set (On the fence about calling the set a basket case, but it is close) 4. Akane Models Ho Brass C&O H-8 2-6-6-6 Allegheny https://www.flickr.com/photos/57293605@N07/sets/72157645256775409 View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Kosmos Timber Company's #11 HO Brass standard gauge 2-6-6-2   (Stamped # 37 of only 208 units made in that first year) https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626581557343/ < /tr>   View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Tenshodo Brass HO Signature Series https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626008528046/ View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Ho Scale Brass "Basket Case" Samhongsa of Korea Imported 4-6-6-4 NP Z-8 Challenger https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624442816551/ View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Due to a recent flaming attempt directed at me by others on another on-line forum, I just wanted to apologize to all those in advance who believe by my showing of any of these locomotive pictures that I am in any way showing off what I have or bragging. It is truly not my intention to make anyone jealous or feel envious. Although I am proud of owning them, mostly I am an enthusiastic hobbyist as are many of you. The difference may be, I really enjoy sharing what rare and unique pieces I find instead of hiding them away on some shelf or in a box. In doing so, I have established relationships with others world wide I may otherwise might have ever known, the least of which being one of the editors of the Brown Book on Bra ss. The hobby brings me a lot of joy and pleasure.  The pieces were created to be seen and and enjoyed by all, no matter the current caretaker. Sincerely, Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 3:28 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23560	From: Donald R. Staton	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]

Sean, would you by chance have an Akane HO C&O H8 pilot/bandstand front end in your accumulated parts from restorations...  Or maybe from an AHM?  I need one for my Akane H8 that is otherwise complete in the box. I enjoyed the photos and the encouragement you gave to inspire others to restore damaged items.  Much of my early collection was gained that way but I don't have them anymore. Thanks for all you do in keeping the hobby alive and for the dales you make to keep the rest of us going. Happy railroading... Don Staton in Va. =================================================================================================== On 12/8/2014 8:44 AM, Sean Naylor a69mustang4me@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Mike, Ray, All, Mike! I could not agree with you more! Personally, I love basket cases. I love seeing the change, especially the restoration progress shots. I have several flickr photo sets dedicated to their restorations. I have a friend in VA who has restored several of mine and had he not done them, most likely they would have been long gone or thrown into someone's scrap pile or worse yet... used as parts in some hideous kitbash! I finally convinced him to post his restoration pictures too. <snip>

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23561	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Sean,   Yep, that worked . . . and then I saw why I couldn't open them via Foxfire when I entered the address.  I didn't realize I needed to scan to the right to get all the numbers; I had left 9 of them out < g >.  Went back to your original post and just opened them from there.  Should have tried clicking on them there from the beginning but I assumed I wouldn't be able to since I don't have a flickr account.  Looks like I don't need one.   You sure had your work cut out for you with those locos.  The Samhongsa NP Z-8 was in particularly bad shape but made a great improvement.  Can't believe the ridiculously low price you paid for that one, but then again, it sure needed work.   Ray     In a message dated 12/8/2014 10:08:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Ray, You could try just "googling" the titles as an image search. They should come up that way and then you can find a link to the photo set below each picture.   Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "eriepacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 8, 2014 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [Unable to display image]   Sean,   Any chance you could send the pics as jpg ?  My browsers are apparently too lousy to be able to open these flickr pics as sent.  The IE won't do it and when I entered the address onto Firefox as a search I got a message that this "did not match any documents."  If they can't be sent any other way, no problem.  I usually can't get to open attachments anyway so I just skip them and resign myself to that.  Thanx,   Ray     In a message dated 12/8/2014 8:45:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Mike, Ray, All, Mike! I could not agree with you more! Personally, I love basket cases. I love seeing the change, especially the restoration progress shots. I have several flickr photo sets dedicated to their restorations. I have a friend in VA who has restored several of mine and had he not done them, most likely they would have been long gone or thrown into someone's scrap pile or worse yet... used as parts in some hideous kitbash! I finally convinced him to post his restoration pictures too. I have attached a few pictures of the basket cases. I have also attached for you to see the dramatic final pics of the ones that were completed. I have attached links to the photo sets of the ones which were restored if anyone cares to see the results step by step. Here is the list of the attached (If nothing else, look at the last photo series below, it is by far the most dramatic): 1. Brass Ken Kidder HOn3 0-4-0 "Steam Dummy" (not completed) 2. HO Scale Brass-Red Ball 0-4-4-0 Logging Tank Engine (not completed but I did attach a pic of a completed model found on line to show what it looks like) 3. Varney Brass Sand Cast Streamlined 4-6-2 Pacific B&O Steam Locomotive & passenger car set (On the fence about calling the set a basket case, but it is close) 4. Akane Models Ho Brass C&O H-8 2-6-6-6 Allegheny https://www.flickr.com/photos/57293605@N07/sets/72157645256775409 View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Kosmos Timber Company's #11 HO Brass standard gauge 2-6-6-2   (Stamped # 37 of only 208 units made in that first year) https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626581557343/ < /tr>   View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo 4-8-8-4 Big Boy Tenshodo Brass HO Signature Series https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157626008528046/ View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo   Ho Scale Brass "Basket Case" Samhongsa of Korea Imported 4-6-6-4 NP Z-8 Challenger https://www.flickr.com/photos/9977705@N05/sets/72157624442816551/ View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Due to a recent flaming attempt directed at me by others on another on-line forum, I just wanted to apologize to all those in advance who believe by my showing of any of these locomotive pictures that I am in any way showing off what I have or bragging. It is truly not my intention to make anyone jealous or feel envious. Although I am proud of owning them, mostly I am an enthusiastic hobbyist as are many of you. The difference may be, I really enjoy sharing what rare and unique pieces I find instead of hiding them away on some shelf or in a box. In doing so, I have established relationships with others world wide I may otherwise might have ever known, the least of which being one of the editors of the Brown Book on Bra ss. The hobby brings me a lot of joy and pleasure.  The pieces were created to be seen and and enjoyed by all, no matter the current caretaker. Sincerely, Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Mike Bauers mwbauers55@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 3:28 PM Subject: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Your view is fine for the kit-builder view. However there are many that if not a big proportion of the modelers, still can make parts like missing side rods, and go at a basket case knowing they will have to replace the missing gearing and motor with contemporary parts. Think of the basket case as being incomplete kit parts made ages ago and now needing to be kit-bashed and completed with todays parts. Sometimes you just want the old chassis and steamer drivers, knowing that it would be a dog for you to make and that having those parts as the start of a new project makes getting the basket-case worth while. Often enough its a partial 'kit' like a Varney streamliner boiler on an Economy Pacific frame that is missing it's motor and needs new lead/trailing trucks and a replacement for the missing tender. Assembled to a point and never seeing paint in the 70 years of its existence. Recently we saw one of those re-habbed and brought back to stunning life in the group. Even I found one a while ago that is waiting it's re-birth. I guess its not so much as a recommendation for anyone to take up a basket case and restore it, as a hope that it will be saved from just being trashed as old junk. Meanwhile, I have two partial 4-4-0 Camelbacks coming to me in very basket-case condition. Two mostly complete-enough chassis with brass channel frames and the segments of a single Camelback boiler and cab that can be reassembled and added to, making a complete boiler cab assembly with a choice of driver-ed frames to go upon........ and a few misc parts in the bundle. The most important parts are the two chassis with their drivers. they look lie standard brass model production. I'm one of those guys with the tooling to make the needed rods, steam chest, pilot, and so-on. I'm over-studied and under practiced on the art. In the last couple of days I've been scanning into the computer lots of old steamer cabs of great variety. I plan to make many of those to fit common models with some tools I don't yet have in operation, but will. [3d print and laser-cutter. the printer arrived a few days ago, the laser is next after having saved for quite some time] Still I'm having a ton of fun in the process.............and isn't that the true goal of the hobby ? I think one aspect of a basket case I truly enjoy is the figuring out and solving of how best to complete it. Best to ya, Mike Bauers Milwaukee, Wi On Dec 5, 2014, at 6:49 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Sorry, I can't go along with basket cases as being recommended for purchasing, mainly because in this condition parts may have easily become lost (and it's next to impossible to know which ones they are), but more importantly they seldom come with assembly instructions and it just takes not knowing how to install a couple of very pertinent parts that are imperative to a loco's operation to render it inoperative. Like a jig-saw puzzle that you've wound up having a few pieces that don't seem to fit the last remaining holes, because you already used the proper (and very similar) pieces elsewhere where they didn't quite fit right but looked correct -- and now you're stuck with two or three pieces that just won't fit the last cut-outs. Sure, most of us are familiar enough with the more popular manufacturers' (Penn Line, Varney, Mantua) construction methods to figure it out, but more obscure manufacturers could have used methods and/or procedures/steps that leave us puzzled. Could be one reason why the owner could never figure out how to reassemble it. I'd only buy a basket case if it were an extremely rare model that's very seldom seen, and a worthwhile one that's an asset to one's collection. > > Ray W. > > > In a message dated 12/5/2014 3:17:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes: > > Some of those 1950's (I think) brass things out of Japan are kinda cute. They show up pretty often on eBay. I've seen complete basket cases (you're going to take it apart anyway) go in the $40-$75 range depending on how mungy they are. With some subtle detailing and attention to repowering and maybe regearing I think they will look OK in a period HO layout as long as everything else matches. .... Ed Weldon

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23562	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]

Yeah Sean,   You are such a pain in the ass. I am so friggin’ jealous that you have all those great pieces that so kindly share with the rest of us’n vintage freaks.   What really amazes me where you find the time! I can’t seem to get anything done with trains, let alone restoring a Mustang.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2014 7:45 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]       Due to a recent flaming attempt directed at me by others on another on-line forum, I just wanted to apologize to all those in advance who believe by my showing of any of these locomotive pictures that I am in any way showing off what I have or bragging. It is truly not my intention to make anyone jealous or feel envious. Although I am proud of owning them, mostly I am an enthusiastic hobbyist as are many of you. The difference may be, I really enjoy sharing what rare and unique pieces I find instead of hiding them away on some shelf or in a box. In doing so, I have established relationships with others world wide I may otherwise might have ever known, the least of which being one of the editors of the Brown Book on Brass. The hobby brings me a lot of joy and pleasure.  The pieces were created to be seen and and enjoyed by all, no matter the current caretaker.   Sincerely, Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!     Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (39) Check out the automatic photo album with 16 photo(s) from this topic. Visit Your Group ·        New Members 1 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23563	From: Joel Holmes	Date: 12/8/2014
Subject: Owner

Hi, Would the owner of Vintage HO please contact me at lehighvalley at twlakes dot net. Thank you. Joel Holmes

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23564	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Sean,   Thanks for sharing this with us. My dad had an Akane C&O Allegheny when I was a boy. We hooked up 62 cars to it and ran it around the layout for years. And that was in the early 1970’s when the cars we had didn’t roll well, and with 2 percent grades. That engine was a workhorse and never quit. Wish I still had it. Beautiful job retro-modding it with the can motor and flywheel, the original motor was a little whiney, but we liked it.   Jim Waterman

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23565	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Now . . . How did I know that the issue of the F-Unit nose would come up after I posted my message!  While I note that you didn't address just the nose, these F-Unit noses have been a controversy in modeling ever since the first manufacturer produced them, with virtually none being truly accurate to the prototype -- albeit some where/are closer than others.  This goes for any scale they were made in.  If it's not the nose that's inaccurate (which it most often is), then it's the windshield openings that manufacturers just can't get right -- and usually both.    While I said that blueprints were available, who's to know how good the artisans were at the time and, as you say, how "close" Tenshodo considered their model passable.  Their lack of accuracy in reproducing may also have been due to poor engineering and designing their first attempts.  Not defending Tenshodo, but just offering one explanation among many.  As a fledgling company just beginning to produce brass models, they had a lot to learn in the way of improvements.  Bowser could have done better (as their fist attempt) in reproducing Knapp's Mountain to scale, which we know is slightly oversize.  Could just be, as you suggest (lack of proper data), the blueprints they stated as obtaining to reproduce their models weren't obtained from EMD (for the covered wagons), ALCo or Baldwin, etc., but from drawings in an early issue of RMC for all we know < g >.  I only related what some of their catalogs included.   I haven't seen any poor looking, out of proportion IMP-Takara steamers though, and all of them were produced by Tenshodo, but then this manufacturer did produce models sold only under their own label and possibly at an earlier time when they had no association with IMP yet.  I did say that Tenshodo became known for their fine reproduction of their first-generation Geep (not their FT) which you wished you could buy.  As I understand it, Globe's version of their F-Unit is still considered to have the most accurate nose, but that's just what I read; I don't judge them.    Ray Wetzel  .        In a message dated 12/9/2014 4:36:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   True but I think the time frame has something to do with this. If Tenshodo had access to all the data necessary to produce true to scale models like their GP-7/9’s at the time they came out with the FT’s someone in their design department had to be blind. Or something. I mean, really, those FT’s were basically a caricature of the real thing and were very bad in proportion and detail. If that was their idea of “close enough” it missed the by a wide margin. If it was just the nose section that was off, maybe. But their later F units with well proportioned car bodies would suggest better information availability even though the same nose section was continued. When the FT’s were first introduced I looked at the ads and reviews and decided that even if I had the money to buy them way back then, I wouldn’t. But when the GP’s first came out, I was wishing I could buy them. Something changed somewhere and I have to believe it was the quality of the data available at the time. Besides, that was what I read somewhere, probably many years ago on the subject. Maybe true, maybe not but it sounded at least plausible at the time. In the early 50’s, even the late 40’s occasional photos of steam locos custom built for GI’s stationed in Japan would show up in MR. Although not nearly as detailed as the later stuff they were generally dimensionally close and looked decent. Now these were done on individual orders to small builders and, being steam, did not have huge amounts of data to go by. But it is likely that the guy that ordered them had the basic data, such as driver dia. And maybe wheel bases etc. and had prototype photos. However, as I stated, there were some real bad early steamers from early production runs. Since the ability to make well proportioned models was available I gotta go with lack of proper data to do the job. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 9:04 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   John, Tenshodo became known for their GN models and their GN GP-7/9's in particular, factory painted.  Thanks for your input on imported models being out of proportion in the early days and your notion that Japanese builders had only photos to go by.  While this may have been true with some builders - and I'm not sure on this -- please let me add the IMP Takara was closely associated with Tenshodo and was based on Union Square, in New York City.  Some of their catalogs fully explain that they had free access to American prototype blue prints and would send them back to Japan to ensure true reproduction in H0 scale. Ray W. In a message dated 12/7/2014 7:44:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   When the prototype FT were introduced the A & B units were semi-permanently coupled (i.e. they used draw bars instead of couplers) so there was little thought to having to move a B unit on its own. Later in the production some railroads had the foresight to understand the flexibility having the units able to coupled and uncoupled at will. I believe having couplers became an option and also, hostler controls for moving them about the engine terminals. Since it would be nice to have some vision, even though limited, to see what the hell you were doing, the hostler window was installed on the side where the control stand was located. And I have seen other Tenshodo FT’s with the hostlers porthole. Ya takes that model, ya strips the paint and re-paint and decal it and you will have a much nicer appearing model of an very distorted FT B.  Witness the photo of the GN units previously posted here. And if you think you thing those FT’s looked crappy, there were a few steamers that would beat it with an ugly stick for being out of proportion. Hell, all the Japanese builders had to go in the early days were photos. They weren’t over here to take the photos that they really needed, or to measure the units or dig up manufacturers construction drawings. They lived and worked in a land where nothing resembled an F unit. So far as Tenshodo and other early diesel models were concerned the first one that really impressed any one was the GP-7/9’s. They were the cats barks back in the day with their scale hood and separate grab irons, etc. Crud by today’s standards they still look okay, especially if your benchmark are the Athearn widely acclaimed 50’2 era product. And, as time went on, Tenshodo’s F units became much more prototypical in all areas EXCEPT the nose contours. The rest of the car bodies were basically built up using sheet brass, castings and other materials but the noses were likely formed by a die set which would have been a considerable expense to replace. As I read a quote from one of the Tenshodo kahoona’s they were not about to change as long as the things were still selling. And they must have sold well for a long time considering the numbers of them that pop up on eBay at swaps. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 11:52 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   When the prototype FT's were first introduced by GM's EMC in 1939, all of the FT B's had only four portholes on each side.  In later years and after GM's EMD came into being, and as these units were made up until 1945, some FT B's had a 5th porthole on one side (only).  This was the hostler's porthole to allow for moving this unit within the yard independently of the FT A unit, by it was not the normal production run(s) of these B units.  For that reason, most model manufacturers who made FT B's produced them as the original prototypes, with four portholes on each side; made it easier to produce them too  It's surprising that Tenshodo deviated from the normal configuration, which I wasn't aware of.  None of their (or IMP's) catalogs show this side; perhaps they may have even produced both versions since they went that far.  In any case, this shows that Tenshodo was keeping up with everything they knew about in the railroad industry in offering faithfully reproduced models.  Thanks for the pic.  Ray Wetzel    In a message dated 12/7/2014 11:25:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I found a couple photos online of other FT B units by Tenshodo that show the same fifth porthole, one on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/TENSHODO-UNION-PACIFIC-FTA-B-FREIGHT-RUNS-GREAT-F7B-DUMMY-BOTH-SHOW-WELL-/301418744446?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item462df50a7e and another on Flickr (part of a set of photos showing the A & B): OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - Road: Great Northern (GN) Description: EMD FT A-B SET Importer: Pacific Fast Mail (PFM) Catalog: 106/107 Builder: Tenshodo Year(s): 1954-1969 Qty Made:375 A-B sets in GN OLDIES, BUT GOODIES - HO TENSHODO DIESELS - R... A few photos of some old, but significant historical models from the dawn of scale brass models. These mid 1950's PFM / Tenshodo brass models were among the... View on www.flickr.com Preview by Yahoo Harry Butler

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23566	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

LOL!  Thanks guys!  I know that John! Just ask my wife! She'll tell you!  I wish I had the time. Most of the brass restorations I send to my buddy in VA. Being that he is a single guy with no kids, he has time coming out his wazoo compared to me. I think he does a fantastic job though and I always have one sitting and waiting for him to do.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 8, 2014 4:01 PM Subject: RE: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Yeah Sean,   You are such a pain in the ass. I am so friggin’ jealous that you have all those great pieces that so kindly share with the rest of us’n vintage freaks.   What really amazes me where you find the time! I can’t seem to get anything done with trains, let alone restoring a Mustang.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2014 7:45 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle [16 Attachments]       Due to a recent flaming attempt directed at me by others on another on-line forum, I just wanted to apologize to all those in advance who believe by my showing of any of these locomotive pictures that I am in any way showing off what I have or bragging. It is truly not my intention to make anyone jealous or feel envious. Although I am proud of owning them, mostly I am an enthusiastic hobbyist as are many of you. The difference may be, I really enjoy sharing what rare and unique pieces I find instead of hiding them away on some shelf or in a box. In doing so, I have established relationships with others world wide I may otherwise might have ever known, the least of which being one of the editors of the Brown Book on Brass. The hobby brings me a lot of joy and pleasure.  The pieces were created to be seen and and enjoyed by all, no matter the current caretaker.   Sincerely, Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti!     Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (39) Check out the automatic photo album with 16 photo(s) from this topic. Visit Your Group ·        New Members 1 • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23567	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Gentlemen; I did have one member contact me off list objecting to some of the more "adult" language. While I know it's all meant in fun, there is a chance children can access this group, and I did have one member object. Thanks Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23568	From: larry Smith	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Akane

Just saw the post on the Akane Allegheny and got a big smile from it. My first brass locomotive was an Akane B&O Q4b. I got it for $25 in 1960. It really pulled and never had any trouble with it. Now here's why I smiled. In September, 1964 I arrived in Tokyo and was stationed in the Air Force at Yokota. During this time I got to visit a lot of brass manufacturers, one of which was Seikino Akane. What a lot of people didn't realize was that the brass manufacturers were a cottage industry in Japan, except for Tenshodo. All of the Akane locomotives were assembled on the second floor of his home and in a space smaller then my home office. No I didn't get any locomotives from him. I did find one manufacturer that I bought some things from. He was making cars and motive power for Trains, Inc and Suydam. I got two brass boxcars, B&O wagon tops, for the equivalent of .50 cents. I also picked up a brass Brill rail car for $19. The more expensive locomotives were at the Tenshodo showroom on the Ginza and I did get to go there often. More later on my United B&O e-27 ca that traveled over 20000 actual miles before turning a wheel. Larry Smith

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23569	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Don, Group, I apologize for my role. It won't happen again.    Sean "If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough!" - Mario Andretti! From: "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2014 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle   Gentlemen; I did have one member contact me off list objecting to some of the more "adult" language. While I know it's all meant in fun, there is a chance children can access this group, and I did have one member object. Thanks Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23570	From: oklacnw	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket Cases

I am not much into restoring damaged or otherwise items, but have done a few for others. One I did I could kick the guy I did it for; he picked up a (if memory right) Westside ATSF 2-10-10-2 with the short/small tender at a flea market and brought it to me to get running. Was a simple job, just needed some fuel line between motor shaft and gear box. Ran like a charm, to me. Anyway, he turned around and sold for $100.00. I would have bought that if had known that was what he was going to do. Have also repaired several early AHM engines for locals. I hate that most of the parts manufacturers have left the hobby as I loved to modify items to work for my railroad,. the C&NW. -- Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23571	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Group,   So I don’t have to re-type (I have enough with the original), this is my off group reply to Don,   “Don.   Oops, sorry. My bad.   I promise to behave.”   John     From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 2:39 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Basket cases; was eBay chuckle     Gentlemen; I did have one member contact me off list objecting to some of the more "adult" language. While I know it's all meant in fun, there is a chance children can access this group, and I did have one member object. Thanks Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23572	From: Doug Harris	Date: 12/9/2014
Subject: Re: Basket Cases

On 10/12/14 12:49, oklacnw@... [vintageHO] wrote: > I am not much into restoring damaged or otherwise items, but have > done a few for others. One I did I could kick the guy I did it for; > he picked up a (if memory right) Westside ATSF 2-10-10-2 with the > short/small tender at a flea market and brought it to me to get > running. Was a simple job, just needed some fuel line between motor > shaft and gear box. Ran like a charm, to me. Anyway, he turned around > and sold for $100.00. I would have bought that if had known that was > what he was going to do. And that would have been a great deal for you.. I'm not sure about the ATSF models, but I have bought several of the KTM Virginian AE 2-10-10-2's for my planned layout - current price is around $1,500.. -- Doug Harris Auckland, New Zealand

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23573	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/10/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

I'm probably going to regret this but I actually bought the silly thing!  (Hey, it was only a little over  30 bucks delivered, swmbo & I spend that much on lunch!) I'll let you know what I get!!! Don On 12/7/2014 7:53 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Agreed, the trucks on FT B's were more set in from the ends, but this looks excessive.  As you state that the port holes (on FT B's) are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A you once had, this would indicate that there where 4 portholes.  No FT A ever had more than 4 portholes and if any H0 manufacturer did, it was incorrect.   Yes, stripping that horrible paint off may give a clue.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 12/7/2014 3:02:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Well, the trucks being so far in from the end is how the rear ends of FT B’s were. And the port holes are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A I once had given to me. It really could anything and only getting it and stripping off that latex wall paint will give any further information. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 1:44 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   This looks nothing like the F units that International Model Products offered in their catalogs going back to 1950  -- and made for them by Tenshodo!  IMP was established in late 1949 (first ad appearing in December '49 MR).  Tenshodo was established sometime prior to IMP, but in that same year, 1949.  If this were a Tenshodo, which I extremely doubt, it would have to have been one of their crude pilot models before they started production, as their production models looked fairly realistic and more true to prototype than this rendition.  This one looks more like a scratch built model using Tenshodo trucks and whatever other small commercially made parts were available at that time -- like the gear boxes and even the Baker couplers which were also used on IMP models.  The frame appears to have been fabricated only because of the very obvious far-removed position of the trucks from the prototype, which any model producer would have made more correctly. Ray Wetzel In a message dated 12/7/2014 12:50:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Yes it is an early Tenshodo and those are Tenshodo’s version of the Baker coupler. Tenshodo’s early F units left a lot to be desired and even when they were improved the still had the worse shaped nose in the industry, John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 7:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vint ageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   The truck says Tenshodo. The couplers look like Baker couplers. Willard At 07:36 PM 12/6/2014, you wrote: I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly m eant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23574	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/10/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Could just be a diamond in the rough.  With new MILW paint & lettering, you'll be glad you bought it < g >.   Ray     In a message dated 12/10/2014 2:36:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   I'm probably going to regret this but I actually bought the silly thing!  (Hey, it was only a little over  30 bucks delivered, swmbo & I spend that much on lunch!) I'll let you know what I get!!! Don On 12/7/2014 7:53 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Agreed, the trucks on FT B's were more set in from the ends, but this looks excessive.  As you state that the port holes (on FT B's) are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A you once had, this would indicate that there where 4 portholes.  No FT A ever had more than 4 portholes and if any H0 manufacturer did, it was incorrect.   Yes, stripping that horrible paint off may give a clue.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 12/7/2014 3:02:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Well, the trucks being so far in from the end is how the rear ends of FT B’s were. And the port holes are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A I once had given to me. It really could anything and only getting it and stripping off that latex wall paint will give any further information. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 1:44 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   This looks nothing like the F units that International Model Products offered in their catalogs going back to 1950  -- and made for them by Tenshodo!  IMP was established in late 1949 (first ad appearing in December '49 MR).  Tenshodo was established sometime prior to IMP, but in that same year, 1949.  If this were a Tenshodo, which I extremely doubt, it would have to have been one of their crude pilot models before they started production, as their production models looked fairly realistic and more true to prototype than this rendition.  This one looks more like a scratch built model using Tenshodo trucks and whatever other small commercially made parts were available at that time -- like the gear boxes and even the Baker couplers which were also used on IMP models.  The frame appears to have been fabricated only because of the very obvious far-removed position of the trucks from the prototype, which any model producer would have made more correctly. Ray Wetzel In a message dated 12/7/2014 12:50:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Yes it is an early Tenshodo and those are Tenshodo’s version of the Baker coupler. Tenshodo’s early F units left a lot to be desired and even when they were improved the still had the worse shaped nose in the industry, John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 7:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vint ageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   The truck says Tenshodo. The couplers look like Baker couplers. Willard At 07:36 PM 12/6/2014, you wrote: I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly m eant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23575	From: Anspach Denny	Date: 12/10/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

The thread on the restoration and operation  of the Akane 2-6-6-6 Allegheny with 61 cars got my attention.  Given the choice of the mechanics and the technnology common at the time, the Akane’s were some of the very best-constructed and most accurately-modeled locomotives imported by of the earlier Japanese workshops (note, I did not mention  detailing!). I personally value them highly. Paraphrasing John Glaab (author of the Brass Book), the California-produced  Winton/MaRa Allegheny 2-6-6-6 of c.1958-64 was probably the very finest HO American locomotive kit ever sold. A successful publicized pull of 100 cars by one of these locomotives around the West Bay Club layout (Menlo Park, CA) in c. 1960 would seem to have sealed its future success.  In this regard, there were a number of MR ads by MaRa (i.e. Ralph Troxel) for these locomotive kits c. 1960-63 featuring  a photo of this particular engine.  However, the very last ad (small) was in MR in about March 1963, advertising the kit for $125 dollars,  as I recall. However, on the back cover of the same issue of MR was a full page Akane glossy ad for their new……Allegheny 2-6-6-6 for about $99 dollars!  The handwriting was on the wall. Who was going to pay XXX dollars for a complicated kit requiring a lot of applied skills, if a fully assembled locomotive of the same type and putative same quality was available for a third of the price;  and it operated right out of the box? I believe that I have reported in the past that my own Winton/MaRa brass Allegheny 2-6-6-6 of c. 1958 (the very same particular model that once pulled the 100 cars, and was also the very model depicted in the advertisements) successfully pulled a witnessed 131 cars around my layout for 2-½ months in the Spring of 2006, half the cars being of the early vintage variety favored on this list and as such often dragging like a stone sled being towed through deep sand.  Denny      Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23576	From: Jim Waterman	Date: 12/11/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Kind of like a Charlie Brown Christmas train Looking through Lenihan 3rd edition, there is a picture of the earl Tenshodo FTs. Match for screens and portholes but truck spacing not quite so tight. Maybe modified? Maybe trucks turned around if screws aren't centered? Jim Waterman Sent from my iPhone

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23577	From: saddlewood1	Date: 12/11/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Hey John  I had S-W specially mix some of that latex paint for one of my locos--- ---but,it doesn't look so good.   Don, I still have most of the quart left.  It is in a shade of Tuscan.  Interested, huh, huh??? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23578	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/11/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Gee,   It don’t look too hot in the eBay photo either. Maybe you shoulda gone to Home Depot? Being a depot they may be more familiar with railroad colors.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2014 11:28 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?     Hey John  I had S-W specially mix some of that latex paint for one of my locos--- ---but,it doesn't look so good.   Don, I still have most of the quart left.  It is in a shade of Tuscan.  Interested, huh, huh??? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23579	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Re: Basket cases; was eBay chuckle

Denny the MD, Oh yeah, OH yeah?  Well, my Arbour will pull its two pound tender all the way around my layout.  However, it may cross the finish line with fewer parts. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23580	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/12/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Seriously, I wanted to use a custom auto paint mix, but they’re still using whitewash for the covered wagons out here. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23581	From: wdavis5069	Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: KD #4 Couplers

A short while ago there was a discussion on the lack of availability of the venerable #4 Kadee.  While perusing the tables at a local train show last Sunday I discovered a quantity of new in the package #4 couplers.  They were 4 for $10 and I purchased what I could for the Money I was carrying.  I have more than I will ever need.  I have six that I will gladly sell to anyone who is interested for the same price I paid, plus shipping. I prefer PayPal, but will accept any legal tender. Wil Davis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23582	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: KD #4 Couplers

On 12/13/2014 10:16 PM, wdavis5069@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > A short while ago there was a discussion on the lack of availability of > the venerable #4 Kadee. While perusing the tables at a local train show > last Sunday I discovered a quantity of new in the package #4 couplers. > They were 4 for $10 and I purchased what I could for the Money I was > carrying. I have more than I will ever need. I have six that I will > gladly sell to anyone who is interested for the same price I paid, plus > shipping. Kadee's current recommendation is to use a #148 coupler with a #213 sleeve on all of those old cars that used the #4 coupler. Apparently the sleeve or bushing fits over the small post in the coupler pockets and lets the later couplers with larger holes fit in there. Haven't tried it myself yet, though I think I may have bought some of the sleeves some time ago and have them stashed somewhere. -- Rick Jones "In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." -Reverend Martin Niemoller

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23583	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/13/2014
Subject: Re: KD #4 Couplers

Hi Will,   Four packages for $10?  I'll take all six packs.  Please let me know what the shipping will be (to 07646).  I don't have a Pay Pal account, so will mail you my check -- or money order if you prefer -- on Monday morning.  Thank you,   Raymond Wetzel -- New Jersey     In a message dated 12/13/2014 11:17:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   A short while ago there was a discussion on the lack of availability of the venerable #4 Kadee.  While perusing the tables at a local train show last Sunday I discovered a quantity of new in the package #4 couplers.  They were 4 for $10 and I purchased what I could for the Money I was carrying.  I have more than I will ever need.  I have six that I will gladly sell to anyone who is interested for the same price I paid, plus shipping. I prefer PayPal, but will accept any legal tender. Wil Davis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23584	From: Garry Spear	Date: 12/17/2014
Subject: FS Knapp, Early Bowser Mountain Boiler

Attachments : 100_7354.jpg 100_7353.jpg 100_7352.jpg 100_7350.jpg I have an early Knapp/Bowser boiler with smoke box front to sell.  This came from the home of Paul Egolf;   My father was a friend.  I think this is just a casting, never assembled into an engine.  Note no bell, a plug (ejection pin?) on the back of the cab and a little rough on some spots.  The die makers name first name Fritz is cut into the boiler under the front air tank on the fireman's side.  Asking $25 which includes Priority Mail.  Don't like my price feel free to make an offer. I have added pictures to this email.  If they do not come through I can email direct or post elsewhere. Garry sPEAR

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Group: vintageHO	Message: 23585	From: rxensen	Date: 12/18/2014
Subject: Extra 6 wheel passenger trucks

Any one interested in brass 6 wheel passenger car trucks  and 6 wheel tender trucks.  Contact me off list Ron Christensen

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23586	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/18/2014
Subject: Bubb'ed Hustler: new axle from drill rod?

OK, so this is back to the, "basket case," thread, with a specific: Picked up a newer version Hustler a while back where the previous owner had begun an Ernst re-gear installation. He got one axle assembled in a fashion that can be OK with re-gauging. Second axle he, "Bubb'ed," pretty bad. Gaffed up one axle end and fit didn't seem even close to right. Then I realized the whole axle was about an eighth of an inch too short. Got out my NWSL, "puller," and took it apart. Axle shaft came out in two pieces. Have NO idea how he did that. So I checked axle diameter: initially looks pretty much the same as a 3/32 drill with my calipers. Also found some solid 3/32 brass rod. I'd consider brass a bad choice of metals for axles, but for a Hustler with the gearing sleeving the shaft anyway, not so sure it would matter. Drill rod would probably work but if I have to shave down the diameter a tiny bit, it's a lot harder material to turn down. So I thought I'd ask what materials you all use for replacement axles?? I've never had to replace an axle before. I have one Ernst converted Hustler and have always liked the darned thing. Good Christmas diversion, Dennis in E WA state --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23587	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 12/19/2014
Subject: Re: Bubb'ed Hustler: new axle from drill rod?

Hi Dennis, Drill rod should be fine.  It can easily be cut off with a Dremel cut off abrasive disk.  It can also be "turned down" while chucked in a regular electric hand drill by carefully putting a file on it.  I have done this myself very successfully.  If you are really fussy, it can be hardened with an ordinary propane torch and water, but I personally don't think that is necessary. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com CC: dbtrail@... From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 20:42:01 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Bubb'ed Hustler: new axle from drill rod?   OK, so this is back to the, "basket case," thread, with a specific: Picked up a newer version Hustler a while back where the previous owner had begun an Ernst re-gear installation. He got one axle assembled in a fashion that can be OK with re-gauging. Second axle he, "Bubb'ed," pretty bad. Gaffed up one axle end and fit didn't seem even close to right. Then I realized the whole axle was about an eighth of an inch too short. Got out my NWSL, "puller," and took it apart. Axle shaft came out in two pieces. Have NO idea how he did that. So I checked axle diameter: initially looks pretty much the same as a 3/32 drill with my calipers. Also found some solid 3/32 brass rod. I'd consider brass a bad choice of metals for axles, but for a Hustler with the gearing sleeving the shaft anyway, not so sure it would matter. Drill rod would probably work but if I have to shave down the diameter a tiny bit, it's a lot harder material to turn down. So I thought I'd ask what materials you all use for replacement axles?? I've never had to replace an axle before. I have one Ernst converted Hustler and have always liked the darned thing. Good Christmas diversion, Dennis in E WA state --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23588	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/19/2014
Subject: Re: Bubb'ed Hustler: new axle from drill rod?

Thanks, Vic, that helps.  Good to know for future, as I was able to re-dress and re-use what I had.  Actually, the little beast is upgraded and running good.  Might need more time/break-in, but I'm happy.  Now for next project, which will require a separate post. Cheers, Dennis On 12/19/2014 6:25 AM, Victor Bitleris bitlerisvj@... [vintageHO] wrote: Hi Dennis, Drill rod should be fine.  It can easily be cut off with a Dremel cut off abrasive disk.  It can also be "turned down" while chucked in a regular electric hand drill by carefully putting a file on it.  I have done this myself very successfully.  If you are really fussy, it can be hardened with an ordinary propane torch and water, but I personally don't think that is necessary. Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com CC: dbtrail@... From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 20:42:01 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Bubb'ed Hustler: new axle from drill rod?   OK, so this is back to the, "basket case," thread, with a specific: Picked up a newer version Hustler a while back where the previous owner had begun an Ernst re-gear installation. He got one axle assembled in a fashion that can be OK with re-gauging. Second axle he, "Bubb'ed," pretty bad. Gaffed up one axle end and fit didn't seem even close to right. Then I realized the whole axle was about an eighth of an inch too short. Got out my NWSL, "puller," and took it apart. Axle shaft came out in two pieces. Have NO idea how he did that. So I checked axle diameter: initially looks pretty much the same as a 3/32 drill with my calipers. Also found some solid 3/32 brass rod. I'd consider brass a bad choice of metals for axles, but for a Hustler with the gearing sleeving the shaft anyway, not so sure it would matter. Drill rod would probably work but if I have to shave down the diameter a tiny bit, it's a lot harder material to turn down. So I thought I'd ask what materials you all use for replacement axles?? I've never had to replace an axle before. I have one Ernst converted Hustler and have always liked the darned thing. Good Christmas diversion, Dennis in E WA state --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23589	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/19/2014
Subject: Dip or, "stripper," for cleaning old brass - what do you use?

Have some old brass carbody pieces which are pretty dingy. I saw a photo of Saen, (if sp, sorry), using a stripper liquid to dip/soak brass locomotive sub-sections. But couldn't read what it was. What do you all use for a cleaner/dip for freshening up brass back to clean and shiny? (Might be similar to pre-painting prep. Thanks, Dennis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23590	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/20/2014
Subject: Hit The Motherlode

Yesterday I traveled to our home office in another city for our holiday party. This morning before heading back home I took the opportunity to visit a few shops to see what I might find. My jaw almost dropped to the floor when I found 12 packages of Kadee #4 couplers in one of them. Still not enough to fill all of the old Menzies (ex-Athearn metal) or Ulrich kits I have stashed away, but it will help immensely. I also found a Northeastern kit for a MILW drop bottom gondola, a Silver Streak by Walthers Piedmont & Northern 36' boxcar, and a Camino Scale Models SP boxcar. I built one of the latter kits about 20 years ago and it came out nicely, so now it'll have a brother. Also got an FSM Dexter's Dead End. -- Rick Jones "I've found that the biggest mistakes of my life involved trusting the judgment of experts more than I trusted my own judgment." -Cynthia McGinnis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23591	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hit The Motherlode

It often pays to stop into these shops that you may never get back to in a good while.  You never know what treasures they may hold.  Nice finds on these items.  Makes ya wonder how they escaped for so long, from getting sold.  I was only aware of Northeastern offering their G-1 Erie drop bottom gon, but then any decal set could be used.  Hadn't noticed they made a MILW drop bottom gon (under a different catalog number?).  The Walthers Piedmont & Northern boxcar was new for 1979 (and never issued by Pacific HO/Silver Streak.  Another wood sheathed boxcar, buy Camino, and a truss rod model.  All great finds.  I need to ask though, What's a Fine Scale Miniatures "Dexter's Dead End"?  Can't seem to find it in any catalogs.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 12/20/2014 9:56:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Yesterday I traveled to our home office in another city for our holiday party. This morning before heading back home I took the opportunity to visit a few shops to see what I might find. My jaw almost dropped to the floor when I found 12 packages of Kadee #4 couplers in one of them. Still not enough to fill all of the old Menzies (ex-Athearn metal) or Ulrich kits I have stashed away, but it will help immensely. I also found a Northeastern kit for a MILW drop bottom gondola, a Silver Streak by Walthers Piedmont & Northern 36' boxcar, and a Camino Scale Models SP boxcar. I built one of the latter kits about 20 years ago and it came out nicely, so now it'll have a brother. Also got an FSM Dexter's Dead End. -- Rick Jones "I've found that the biggest mistakes of my life involved trusting the judgment of experts more than I trusted my own judgment." -Cynthia McGinnis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23592	From: Rick Jones	Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hit The Motherlode

On 12/21/2014 11:54 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > It often pays to stop into these shops that you may never get back to in > a good while. You never know what treasures they may hold. Nice finds > on these items. Makes ya wonder how they escaped for so long, from > getting sold. I was only aware of Northeastern offering their G-1 Erie > drop bottom gon, but then any decal set could be used. Hadn't noticed > they made a MILW drop bottom gon (under a different catalog number?). > The Walthers Piedmont & Northern boxcar was new for 1979 (and never > issued by Pacific HO/Silver Streak. Another wood sheathed boxcar, buy > Camino, and a truss rod model. All great finds. I need to ask though, > What's a Fine Scale Miniatures "Dexter's Dead End"? Can't seem to find > it in any catalogs. The Northeastern kit has the info hand-lettered on the box ends. I don't know if they made a regular practice of that. There's a "701" on one end, so I suppose that may be the catalog number. The plans inside do say "Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul & Pacific Railroad". And there's MILW decals though now that I look at them closely they have creases on them. I hope a good dose of Solvaset will take care of any problems. The FSM kit is just a bonus for those of us that enjoy George's work. -- Rick Jones A closed mouth gathers no foot.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23593	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/21/2014
Subject: Re: Hit The Motherlode

On 12/21/2014 2:50 PM, Rick Jones r.t.jones@... [vintageHO] wrote:   On 12/21/2014 11:54 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote: > > > It often pays to stop into these shops that you may never get back to in > a good while. You never know what treasures they may hold. Nice finds > on these items. Makes ya wonder how they escaped for so long, from > getting sold. I was only aware of Northeastern offering their G-1 Erie > drop bottom gon, but then any decal set could be used. Hadn't noticed > they made a MILW drop bottom gon (under a different catalog number?). > The Walthers Piedmont & Northern boxcar was new for 1979 (and never > issued by Pacific HO/Silver Streak. Another wood sheathed boxcar, buy > Camino, and a truss rod model. All great finds. I need to ask though, > What's a Fine Scale Miniatures "Dexter's Dead End"? Can't seem to find > it in any catalogs. The Northeastern kit has the info hand-lettered on the box ends. I don't know if they made a regular practice of that. There's a "701" on one end, so I suppose that may be the catalog number. The plans inside do say "Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul & Pacific Railroad". And there's MILW decals though now that I look at them closely they have creases on them. I hope a good dose of Solvaset will take care of any problems. The FSM kit is just a bonus for those of us that enjoy George's work. -- Rick Jones A closed mouth gathers no foot. If the decal is creased, Solvaset will just make it worse.  Give it coat of Micro-scale "Liquid decal film"    I've saved decals that were 50 years old with it. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23594	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Well.  It finally came and yes, it really is a Tenshodo. I haven't taken it downstairs yet to see if it runs, but the silly think has a flywheel.  Don't know if that was original or not.  The fifth porthole is only on one side which is correct.  The truck spacing is probably correct but I need to check the prorotype plans, I may need to swap the body end for end.  The paint isn't as bad as it looked in the auction, but I need to strip it anyway. All in all, should wash up pretty nice. Don On 12/10/2014 1:35 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I'm probably going to regret this but I actually bought the silly thing!  (Hey, it was only a little over  30 bucks delivered, swmbo & I spend that much on lunch!) I'll let you know what I get!!! Don On 12/7/2014 7:53 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Agreed, the trucks on FT B's were more set in from the ends, but this looks excessive.  As you state that the port holes (on FT B's) are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A you once had, this would indicate that there where 4 portholes.  No FT A ever had more than 4 portholes and if any H0 manufacturer did, it was incorrect.   Yes, stripping that horrible paint off may give a clue.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 12/7/2014 3:02:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Well, the trucks being so far in from the end is how the rear ends of FT B’s were. And the port holes are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A I once had given to me. It really could anything and only getting it and stripping off that latex wall paint will give any further information. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 1:44 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   This looks nothing like the F units that International Model Products offered in their catalogs going back to 1950  -- and made for them by Tenshodo!  IMP was established in late 1949 (first ad appearing in December '49 MR).  Tenshodo was established sometime prior to IMP, but in that same year, 1949.  If this were a Tenshodo, which I extremely doubt, it would have to have been one of their crude pilot models before they started production, as their production models looked fairly realistic and more true to prototype than this rendition.  This one looks more like a scratch built model using Tenshodo trucks and whatever other small commercially made parts were available at that time -- like the gear boxes and even the Baker couplers which were also used on IMP models.  The frame appears to have been fabricated only because of the very obvious far-removed position of the trucks from the prototype, which any model producer would have made more correctly. Ray Wetzel In a message dated 12/7/2014 12:50:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Yes it is an early Tenshodo and those are Tenshodo’s version of the Baker coupler. Tenshodo’s early F units left a lot to be desired and even when they were improved the still had the worse shaped nose in the industry, John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 7:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vint ageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   The truck says Tenshodo. The couplers look like Baker couplers. Willard At 07:36 PM 12/6/2014, you wrote: I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly m eant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23595	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

On 12/22/2014 12:14 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Well.  It finally came and yes, it really is a Tenshodo. I haven't taken it downstairs yet to see if it runs, but the silly think has a flywheel.  Don't know if that was original or not.  The fifth porthole is only on one side which is correct.  The truck spacing is probably correct but I need to check the prorotype plans, I may need to swap the body end for end.  The paint isn't as bad as it looked in the auction, but I need to strip it anyway. All in all, should wash up pretty nice. Don On 12/10/2014 1:35 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I'm probably going to regret this but I actually bought the silly thing!  (Hey, it was only a little over  30 bucks delivered, swmbo & I spend that much on lunch!) I'll let you know what I get!!! Don On 12/7/2014 7:53 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Agreed, the trucks on FT B's were more set in from the ends, but this looks excessive.  As you state that the port holes (on FT B's) are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A you once had, this would indicate that there where 4 portholes.  No FT A ever had more than 4 portholes and if any H0 manufacturer did, it was incorrect.   Yes, stripping that horrible paint off may give a clue.    Ray Wetzel     \ -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ Here's what I found when I took off the shell.   (It DOES run, but needs work on the gears) -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23596	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB? [5 Attachments]

Don,   Werner had given me a Tenshodo FT A some years ago. While it’s been gone for long time I do not recall there being a flywheel. Other than that, and the fact that it was an A, it looked just like your photos.   BTW to all the Yahoo “neo” haters out there, I really the “Automatic photo album” they now have. One click and you get to see whole lot of the photos posted by the poster. I also like the one click photo download feature.   Yes, there are still some things I do not like atall but ….   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 2:29 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB? [5 Attachments]     [Attachment(s) from Don Dellmann included below] On 12/22/2014 12:14 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Well.  It finally came and yes, it really is a Tenshodo. I haven't taken it downstairs yet to see if it runs, but the silly think has a flywheel.  Don't know if that was original or not.  The fifth porthole is only on one side which is correct.  The truck spacing is probably correct but I need to check the prorotype plans, I may need to swap the body end for end.  The paint isn't as bad as it looked in the auction, but I need to strip it anyway. All in all, should wash up pretty nice. Don   Reply via web post • Reply to sender • Reply to group • Start a New Topic • Messages in this topic (26) Check out the automatic photo album with 5 photo(s) from this topic. Visit Your Group • Privacy • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use .

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23597	From: Sean Naylor	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Jim Heckard Update

Hello all, Just to let everyone know, I spoke to Jim Heckard this afternoon/evening. He is doing as well. His health is still slowly deteriorating however. The Parkinson's has made it a terribly difficult and frustrating existence for him.  His asked I let everyone here know he continues to think about our group, its members and misses the discussions and interactions terribly. He wishes nothing but the best for everyone this holiday season.  Sincerely,   Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23598	From: John Hagen	Date: 12/22/2014
Subject: Re: Jim Heckard Update

Thank you Sean.   My wife’s brother-in-law fought a long battle with Parkinson’s and it was a very frustrating for both he and his loved ones. Going from a viable life style to one of total frustration with the inability to do even the simplest actions is truly difficult for the victims of this despicable disease.   Our prayers go out to Jim and his family.   John Hagen   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 10:32 PM To: Vintage HO Group; Yard Bird Trains Subject: [vintageHO] Jim Heckard Update     Hello all, Just to let everyone know, I spoke to Jim Heckard this afternoon/evening. He is doing as well. His health is still slowly deteriorating however. The Parkinson's has made it a terribly difficult and frustrating existence for him.  His asked I let everyone here know he continues to think about our group, its members and misses the discussions and interactions terribly. He wishes nothing but the best for everyone this holiday season.  Sincerely,   Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23599	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Jim Heckard Update

On 12/22/2014 10:32 PM, Sean Naylor a69mustang4me@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Hello all, Just to let everyone know, I spoke to Jim Heckard this afternoon/evening. He is doing as well. His health is still slowly deteriorating however. The Parkinson's has made it a terribly difficult and frustrating existence for him.  His asked I let everyone here know he continues to think about our group, its members and misses the discussions and interactions terribly. He wishes nothing but the best for everyone this holiday season.  Sincerely,   Sean Please pass on my prayers to him. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23600	From: mmattjcoleman	Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Don, Thanks for the post. That answers my original question -- and the subsequent discussions have answered questions I didn't know I had. ;o) Look forward to any other info you post on it. Matt Coleman ---In vintageHO@yahoogroups.com, <don.dellmann@...> wrote : Well.  It finally came and yes, it really is a Tenshodo. I haven't taken it downstairs yet to see if it runs, but the silly think has a flywheel.  Don't know if that was original or not.  The fifth porthole is only on one side which is correct.  The truck spacing is probably correct but I need to check the prorotype plans, I may need to swap the body end for end.  The paint isn't as bad as it looked in the auction, but I need to strip it anyway. All in all, should wash up pretty nice. Don

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23601	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Jim Heckard Update

Hello Sean,   Thanks for passing along this update on Jim.  So glad to hear he's doing well, albeit his condition continuing to deteriorate.  He has been and will continue to be an inspiration to all of us here, not only by his strength in enduring this disease but by his persistence in his fine modeling efforts in the past, showing us what can be done if one has a mind to do it.   It's so nice to know he still thinks about us; I hope he's still up to reading what's going on here from day to day, even if he's unable to participate.  My thoughts often are of him, how he's doing and of his marvelous collection, just as I'm sure he crosses everyone else's minds.     Here's wishing him and his family a very Happy Holiday Season.   Best,   Ray Wetzel       In a message dated 12/22/2014 11:32:31 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Hello all, Just to let everyone know, I spoke to Jim Heckard this afternoon/evening. He is doing as well. His health is still slowly deteriorating however. The Parkinson's has made it a terribly difficult and frustrating existence for him.  His asked I let everyone here know he continues to think about our group, its members and misses the discussions and interactions terribly. He wishes nothing but the best for everyone this holiday season.  Sincerely,   Sean

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23602	From: eriepacific@...	Date: 12/23/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Hi Don,   Good to see that this may be a gem after all, with a little work and a repaint.  You'll have to look for an A Unit now, unless you have one already.  Just thought I'd let you and the Group know, there was an A B set of Tenshodo FT's on eBay a couple of weeks ago (ended December 12), in their original box.  Fairly nicely painted and lettered for Pennsylvania.  The B Unit clearly showed the 5th (hostler's) porthole on the one side.  It went for $67 after 22 bids by 6 bidders; yes, I was one of those.  I didn't win it (should have gone the distance), but for those interested, it was eBay # 151506078983.  Looked pretty nice.  Best of luck with yours.   Ray W.           In a message dated 12/22/2014 1:15:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Well.  It finally came and yes, it really is a Tenshodo. I haven't taken it downstairs yet to see if it runs, but the silly think has a flywheel.  Don't know if that was original or not.  The fifth porthole is only on one side which is correct.  The truck spacing is probably correct but I need to check the prorotype plans, I may need to swap the body end for end.  The paint isn't as bad as it looked in the auction, but I need to strip it anyway. All in all, should wash up pretty nice. Don On 12/10/2014 1:35 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I'm probably going to regret this but I actually bought the silly thing!  (Hey, it was only a little over  30 bucks delivered, swmbo & I spend that much on lunch!) I'll let you know what I get!!! Don On 12/7/2014 7:53 AM, eriepacific@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Agreed, the trucks on FT B's were more set in from the ends, but this looks excessive.  As you state that the port holes (on FT B's) are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A you once had, this would indicate that there where 4 portholes.  No FT A ever had more than 4 portholes and if any H0 manufacturer did, it was incorrect.   Yes, stripping that horrible paint off may give a clue.    Ray Wetzel     In a message dated 12/7/2014 3:02:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Well, the trucks being so far in from the end is how the rear ends of FT B’s were. And the port holes are the same as an early Tenshodo FT A I once had given to me. It really could anything and only getting it and stripping off that latex wall paint will give any further information. John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 1:44 AM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vintageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   This looks nothing like the F units that International Model Products offered in their catalogs going back to 1950  -- and made for them by Tenshodo!  IMP was established in late 1949 (first ad appearing in December '49 MR).  Tenshodo was established sometime prior to IMP, but in that same year, 1949.  If this were a Tenshodo, which I extremely doubt, it would have to have been one of their crude pilot models before they started production, as their production models looked fairly realistic and more true to prototype than this rendition.  This one looks more like a scratch built model using Tenshodo trucks and whatever other small commercially made parts were available at that time -- like the gear boxes and even the Baker couplers which were also used on IMP models.  The frame appears to have been fabricated only because of the very obvious far-removed position of the trucks from the prototype, which any model producer would have made more correctly. Ray Wetzel In a message dated 12/7/2014 12:50:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vintageHO@yahoogroups.com writes:   Yes it is an early Tenshodo and those are Tenshodo’s version of the Baker coupler. Tenshodo’s early F units left a lot to be desired and even when they were improved the still had the worse shaped nose in the industry, John Hagen From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2014 7:20 PM To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [vint ageHO] Question on eBay Item -- FTB?   The truck says Tenshodo. The couplers look like Baker couplers. Willard At 07:36 PM 12/6/2014, you wrote: I was looking at eBay (my second favorite pastime besides napping) and saw the following listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRASS-engine-train-HO-/121509992714?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1c4a8f590a BRASS engine train HO It is clearly m eant to be an FT B-unit but I was curious as to whether or not it was a scratchbuilt body over a commercial mechanism. The seller doesn't know any more about it than he tells in the description but the photos are good enough to show the gearboxes -- which are labeled 'Japan.'  It looks to crude to be one of the early PFM imports, but perhaps it goes back to the International Models or may be one of the one-off custom models that were done in the late 1940s during the occupation. Just curious what others who know more than me think of this one. Matt This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23603	From: Raymond Lorts, Sr,	Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: (no subject)

MERRY CHRISTMAS  AND HAPPY    NEW YEAR'S.                                         RAYMOND LORTS  SR  -- It might take me a bit of time to respond to you, but i will respond to you.  Thanks for your patience's.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23604	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Holiday wishes

No matter which Holiday you celebrate, I just want to wish the best for all of you. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23605	From: rick flaherty	Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday wishes

Attachments : Bugs P-38[2].png Same to you, Don. A cup of cheer! Rick "The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." Albert Einstein From: "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 6:57 PM To: "EriePacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [vintageHO] Holiday wishes   No matter which Holiday you celebrate, I just want to wish the best for all of you. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

@@attachment@@

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23606	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 12/24/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday wishes

I wish the same to all of you. Richard Carbo Sent from my iPad On Dec 24, 2014, at 9:57 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   No matter which Holiday you celebrate, I just want to wish the best for all of you. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23607	From: Richard Carbo	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Holiday wishes

I will second that. Happy Holidays to all. Richard Carbo   From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:vintageHO@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 9:58 PM To: EriePacific@... [vintageHO] Subject: [vintageHO] Holiday wishes     No matter which Holiday you celebrate, I just want to wish the best for all of you. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23608	From: Fred Hultberg	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3374[1 Attachment]

A very merry Christmas from Fred in central NY State On Thursday, December 25, 2014 4:51 AM, "vintageHO@yahoogroups.com" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: There are 4 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest: 1. (no subject)        From: Raymond Lorts, Sr, 2a. Holiday wishes        From: Don Dellmann 2b. Re: Holiday wishes        From: rick flaherty 2c. Re: Holiday wishes        From: Richard Carbo Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1. (no subject)     Posted by: "Raymond Lorts, Sr," gn5263@... raymondlorts     Date: Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:12 am ((PST)) MERRY CHRISTMAS  AND HAPPY NEW YEAR'S.                                       RAYMOND LORTS  SR -- It might take me a bit of time to respond to you, but i will respond to you.  Thanks for your patience's. Messages in this topic (1) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2a. Holiday wishes     Posted by: "Don Dellmann" don.dellmann@... don.dellmann@...     Date: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:58 pm ((PST)) No matter which Holiday you celebrate, I just want to wish the best for all of you. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ Messages in this topic (3) ________________________________________________________________________ 2b. Re: Holiday wishes     Posted by: "rick flaherty" flick23@... rick.flaherty     Date: Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:30 pm ((PST)) Same to you, Don. A cup of cheer! Rick "The problems that exist in the world today cannot be solved by the level of thinking that created them." Albert Einstein From:  "Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To:  <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Date:  Wednesday, December 24, 2014 6:57 PM To:  "EriePacific@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> Subject:  [vintageHO] Holiday wishes   No matter which Holiday you celebrate, I just want to wish the best for all of you. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/   1 of 1 Photo(s) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/vintageHO/attachments/442231537 Bugs P-38[2].png Messages in this topic (3) ________________________________________________________________________ 2c. Re: Holiday wishes     Posted by: "Richard Carbo" flyerguy3@... rlcarbo     Date: Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:07 pm ((PST)) I wish the same to all of you. Richard Carbo Sent from my iPad > On Dec 24, 2014, at 9:57 PM, Don Dellmann don.dellmann@... [vintageHO] <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > No matter which Holiday you celebrate, I just want to wish the best for > all of you. > > Don > > -- > Don Dellmann > Contact me at: > don.dellmann@... > See my toys at: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ > Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ > > Messages in this topic (3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/ <*> Your email settings:     Digest Email  | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     vintageHO-normal@yahoogroups.com     vintageHO-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     vintageHO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:     https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23609	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Hello Don, My observations:             That cab #2736, is some kind of toy             Is the red car playing with the Electroliner             The tall downtown bldgs. are impressive.  Great building idea.             Like the night scene of Munchkin Mtrs.             Wonderful layout detail. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23610	From: oklacnw	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Digest Number 3374[1 Attachment]

Merry Christmas & a Very Happy New Year to all. -- Al E.

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23611	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/25/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

On 12/25/2014 12:33 PM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Hello Don, My observations:             That cab #2736, is some kind of toy             Is the red car playing with the Electroliner             The tall downtown bldgs. are impressive.  Great building idea.             Like the night scene of Munchkin Mtrs.             Wonderful layout detail. Denis Thanks. I'm not sure which you mean by Cab 2736? The red car is just waiting to make a right turn.  Trouble is, he's gonna be there a while that's that's one of the ones that's glued down when I was putting fiber optic headlights is some of the cars. My biggest gripe with most model buildings are that they aren't tall enough.  Modelling traction, those are my "Mountains" Thanks, Munchkin motors was just fooling around with some stuff out of the scrap box to see what I could do. It was actually loosley patterned after a local VW dealership.  "Munchkin" is SWMBO Thank you. -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23612	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Don, Went to your site—‘toys’-----#2736 is that nifty C&O model on that link. Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23613	From: bowtiefan47	Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: How do I sell some old HO kits?

I am helping with the estate of a friend and I have about 25 old HO kits, mostly MDC & Varney cast metal.  They were in a flood in his garage, so the boxes have some water damage on the ends, but most of the cars are in good shape.  I would like to sell them as a group, but I don't want to deal with ebay.  I'd rather see them go to a collector like you guys, but I don't know how, or if I can list them on this site.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23614	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

On 12/26/2014 5:34 PM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Don, Went to your site—‘toys’-----#2736 is that nifty C&O model on that link. Denis Oh. you mean my scratchbuilt K4? :--) That's at the National Railway Museum in Green Bay, just down the road from Lambeau field, home of the Green Bay Packers! The also have a Big Boy there which SWMBO liked, and my favorite, one of the three Aerotrain locomotives. They have some nice pieces there, but none are in running condition.  I actually prefer the Illinois RR Museum at Union (about 40 miles NW of Chicago) Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23615	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/26/2014
Subject: Re: How do I sell some old HO kits?

On 12/26/2014 5:56 PM, 1kenalbers@... [vintageHO] wrote:   I am helping with the estate of a friend and I have about 25 old HO kits, mostly MDC & Varney cast metal.  They were in a flood in his garage, so the boxes have some water damage on the ends, but most of the cars are in good shape.  I would like to sell them as a group, but I don't want to deal with ebay.  I'd rather see them go to a collector like you guys, but I don't know how, or if I can list them on this site.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Ken  There's no problem posting, all I would ask is that if anyone is interested just please correspond off list (people forget and all of a sudden addresses and phone numbers start floating around the list which is not too safe) If you'd like to, you're even welcome to post photos on the list home page.  Start an album and let people see what you have. Don -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23616	From: Dennis Thompson	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Lindsay Stubby diesel: looking for motor unit

Next project: my little Lindsay Stubby diesel which, apparently, has an open in the armature. Motor has been dead since I got it some time ago. Just thought I'd throw out this note in case anyone has an extra motor with worm gear. Interesting little guy, cute, not sure how durable they were. Happy New Year, Dennis in E WA state

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23617	From: Victor Bitleris	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Lindsay Stubby diesel: looking for motor unit

Hi Dennis, The way I see it, you have two additional choices. 1. remotor with a can motor (the BEST choice). 2. Re-wind the original motor.  Surprisingly the re-wind should be relatively easy.  When we were kids, we used to re-wind motor armatures regularly.  We wound down 6 volt motors to 3 volt motors and used them in slot cars in the 1960's.  Sure they burned out after a while, but it really sped up the cars.  Basically when you unwind the old armature, you make a drawing of the wind pattern and you count the winds so you can reproduce the correct number of winds.  If you choose the re-wind route, you may also wish to change out the magnets with neodymium magnets, available from K&J magnetics. Regards, Vic Bitleris Raleigh, NC To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com From: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 06:59:23 -0800 Subject: [vintageHO] Lindsay Stubby diesel: looking for motor unit   Next project: my little Lindsay Stubby diesel which, apparently, has an open in the armature. Motor has been dead since I got it some time ago. Just thought I'd throw out this note in case anyone has an extra motor with worm gear. Interesting little guy, cute, not sure how durable they were. Happy New Year, Dennis in E WA state

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23618	From: cwrailman	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Lindsay Stubby diesel: looking for motor unit

Dennis, It might help your cause if you post a few photo’s of the motor you are looking for.  Sometimes folks have parts and they do not know what they are from, or that motor may have been used in another model. Denny Janitor in Training CW Loco and Car Rebuild Shops WEB site: http://www.cwrailman.com/ Facebook: CWRailman  CWRailman Check out CWRailman, Adventures in Model Railroading. The home of the California Western Loco and... View on www.facebook.com Preview by Yahoo

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23619	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item -- FTB?

Hey Don. Let’s see—Green Bay Packers; yes, I remember, they play for a meat packing plant, right?   I was born & raised in(side) Chicago, nw side, Kedzie & Milwaukie-Logan Square.   In football, I remember the GB Packers—Da Bears—and the Chicago Cardinals. Happy New Year, Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23620	From: Denis Long	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item

Don, I just purchased a GG1.  A pre-Lowey, 5 stripe, green and ornately gold striped model; made in ‘Slovenia’, which I believe is a Mehano.  My opinion—it is very well done. I’m not that conversant with GG1s, but I think the tooling is Rivarossi, but with mechanical improvements. Any thoughts? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23621	From: Don Dellmann	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item

On 12/27/2014 4:25 PM, 'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO] wrote:   Don, I just purchased a GG1.  A pre-Lowey, 5 stripe, green and ornately gold striped model; made in ‘Slovenia’, which I believe is a Mehano.  My opinion—it is very well done. I’m not that conversant with GG1s, but I think the tooling is Rivarossi, but with mechanical improvements. Any thoughts? Denis Most of the "Menhano", or as it was previously known, Mehanitonlika, either used Rivarossi tooling or copied it.  One of their first models was the FM C-liner offered by AHM back when they first started around 1960.  They were actually a lot nicer models than people gave them credit for, -- Don Dellmann Contact me at: don.dellmann@... See my toys at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/don_dellmann/ Listowner: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vintageHO/

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23622	From: Roger Whiffin	Date: 12/27/2014
Subject: Re: Question on eBay Item

Mehano did take over some of the older Rivarossi tooling and lines and were still for a while packaged as AHM. RopgerW From: "'Denis Long' avanti78@... [vintageHO]" <vintageHO@yahoogroups.com> To: vintageHO@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014, 22:25 Subject: [vintageHO] Re: Question on eBay Item   Don, I just purchased a GG1.  A pre-Lowey, 5 stripe, green and ornately gold striped model; made in ‘Slovenia’, which I believe is a Mehano.  My opinion—it is very well done. I’m not that conversant with GG1s, but I think the tooling is Rivarossi, but with mechanical improvements. Any thoughts? Denis

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23623	From: bowtiefan47	Date: 12/28/2014
Subject: Old Varney, MDC kits for sale

I have just made an album of photos entitled Old HO kits for sale.  These were part of a friend's estate that got flooded.  All the boxes have water damage on one end, but most of the cars are still in good shape because most are cast kits.  There are a couple of wood/cardboard kits that have water damage, and that can be seen in the photos.  Any competent model builder could make a nice display of these vintage pieces.  Below is a list.  I am asking $150 for everything, or I will sell the GG1 for $25, and the rest for $125.  There are 27 cars. This is less than $5 a car.   Send me an email at 1kenalbers@... Ambroid 1 of 5000; Western Union material car, wood, red box MDC/Roundhouse; NYC 40’ boxcar, cast metal w/trks, dk blue/yel box MDC/Roundhouse; Southern 40’ stock car, cast metal w/trks, some peeling paint, lt blue/yel box MDC/Roundhouse; Santa Fe 40’ outside braced boxcar, cast metal w/trks, lt blue/yel box MDC/Roundhouse; Southern low side gondola, cast metal w/trks, yel/org box MDC/Roundhouse; Norfolk & Western low side gondola, cast metal w/trks, yel/org box MDC/Roundhouse; EJ&E 40’ box, cast metal w/trks, a little paint bubbling, drk blu/yel box MDC/Roundhouse; UP stock car, cast metal w/trks, drk blu/yel box MDC/Roundhouse; C&O High side gondola, cast metal w/trks, drk blu/yel box MDC/Roundhouse; Missouri Pacific stock car, cast metal w/trks, tan/brwn box Modelmaster; Great Northern 40’ steel box, wood/embossed metal, built, good condition, brwn box Roundhouse; Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul old time reefer, plastic/metal, blu box Silver Streak; work train dormitory car, wood/plywood w/trks, brwn box Varney; Delaware & Hudson hopper, embossed tin, partial, needs work, early kit, yel/blu box Varney; Erie gondola, embossed tin, mostly complete, needs a little work, early kit, yel/blu box Varney; stock car, cast metal, built, no RR etc. good condition, yel/blu box Varney; Oregon & Nation Wide 40’ box, wood/embossed paper, partially blt, water damage on ends of sides, possibly hide with weathering, yel/blu box. Varney; caboose, wood/embossed metal, built but needs complete restoration, yel/blu box Varney; Carnation reefer, wood/cardboard, built but needs TLC, yel/blu box Varney; Hollywood & Western 40’ box, wood/embossed paper, great graphics but water stained, yel/blu box Varney; Santa Fe 48’ flat car, wood, built, couple loose parts, yel/blu box Varney; Great Northern 40’ steel box, wood/embossed metal w/trks red box Varney; New Haven & Hartford 40’ steel box, wood/embossed metal w/trks, red box Varney; West India Fruit & Steamship Co.  40’ steel box, plastic/embossed metal w/trks, yel box No Box Varney; PFE reefer, plastic/embossed metal, built, good condition, horn hook cplrs B&O covered hopper, plastic, no trks SP Daylight coach, metal, no interior, windows, trucks, cplrs, nice condition Rivarossi/AHM; PRR GG1, maroon/yel, nice condition, haven’t tested it.  No water damage thanks Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23624	From: bowtiefan47	Date: 12/28/2014
Subject: Old HO for sale.

I forgot to add, plus shipping. Sorry Ken

Group: vintageHO	Message: 23625	From: b60bp	Date: 12/31/2014
Subject: Old HO For Sale

Greetings, I have to thin my storage shelves some more and would like to skim off some of my oldies. Shipping costs will be based on post office rates. I gladly accept paypal, money orders and checks (if you don't mind waiting a few days). These first entries are all the Walthers metal and wood kits with brief notes. #6628 RPO-Express 70 foot combine. All parts bags still sealed, super detail pack, diaphrams, decals, plastic roof, original factory packing paper. $18.50 #7821 70 foot Baggage Car. Basic kit. $12 #7872 75 foot Coach, P70 style. Nice kit, parts bag sealed, decals. $13.50 #7817 80 foot Parlor Car. Nice kit, sealed parts bag. $13.50 #7811 8 Section, 2 bedroom, drawing room Pullman. Super detail package, decals, original wrapping. $14 #7814  14 Section Pullman . Basic kit, decals, original wrapping. Small tube of Goo! $13.50 #7802  12 Section Pullman. Later kit, very nice. Super detail pack unopened, diaphrams, plastic roof, original paper, nice kit. $17.50 #5525 Pennsy MP54 set. Includes a mostly assembled MPB54 combine, powered but not running, tarnished and needs some TLC to complete, but a rare piece of equipment. Also includes MP54 coach in mint condition with all sealed bags, detailing parts including PRR slatted pilots and owl-eyed ends, decals, etc. Both $45. ---J C Silversides Pennsy B60 baggage car kit. New in box, an old standard. $12 --Ambroid K-7 B&M open platform baggage car kit. Bought at swap meet years ago and seems complete, parts bag unopened. $15 --MDC 36 foot AT&SF old time reefer. Built up, Kadees, sprung trucks. $7 Please contact me off list if interested. Thanks for looking. Barry Peltier